Did Social Media Make Us More Unprofessional? Unprofessionalism EP 035 with Kate Raynes-Goldie

Kate, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me. I'm really excited about this.

Me too. You've called yourself professionally unprofessional. So I am more than curious to hear about your moment when you've been unprofessional.

So I think, I think back to the first time that I was professionally unprofessional, because I think it kind of set the tone for the rest of my life. But before I answer that, I did my undergrad in philosophy. And so that's all about the first thing is you have to define your terms. And so what do we mean by unprofessional? So for me, it's really, it's almost, there's a lot of aspects to it, but I think the core one is that it's something where we're saying to be safe. It's like, we're gonna do this to be safe. It's not gonna rock the boat. It's wearing the right clothes, doing the right thing, acting in the right way. And it's the safe way. But I don't think it's always the right way. And I think actually, well, we can get into this, but I think often it's like a false safety that gets in the way of actually getting into true vulnerability and connection and who we really are.

Yeah.

So it's a false safety. And so I think back to the first time that I did this, and this was when I was living in Canada and I was in my first real job, and I had the invitation to move to Australia to do my PhD in internet studies, which, spoiler, I ended up doing. But my work— the place I was working at didn't want me to leave and wanted me to stay or wanted me to keep working remotely, and I really just didn't wanna do that. And so then I did this thing that was really scary, which is I just thought of the number that like, how would I wanna work and what would it— what would be the amount of money that would make it okay for me to go, okay, I'm happy to do this. And so at the time I just picked this crazy number and said, I'm only gonna do it this way. I'm only gonna do it on internet relay chat. And this is my terms. And then they said no. And I said, okay. And then they came back and said yes.

They came back to you and said yes?

Yes. And so I basically got to move to Australia and have this like really minimal part-time job that I was still able to move the needle for them, work in the way that I wanted. Um, I think prob— got properly paid now that I look back to what I was actually getting paid before I renegotiated the terms. Um, and was able to— yeah, it was a great way to start a new life in a new country as someone in your early 20s when, you know, financial insecurity is a bit of a thing.

Mm-hmm.

And then it's just become a thing that's really, I think, inspired, yeah, the rest of my life, which is to do things that are scary. And I think people would tell you not to do that. You know, it's don't do that. Just accept the lower offer or don't ask for that. Don't do the thing that Um, especially I think there's a gender thing probably in there as a young woman as well.

Yep.

Undiagnosed neurodivergent as well, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

So everything, everybody else is telling you don't do that. Everybody else is telling you, um, not to do that thing. And yeah, listen to your own gut and your own advice and what feels true to you. And, um, yeah, be true to yourself.

And it's interesting, you're the second one sharing such a story on the podcast. to putting out a number that is ridiculously high and then getting a yes for it.

Yeah.

Which makes me now think, why are we not doing this more often? And maybe, as you said, maybe men do this actually more often. Yes.

Well, my— one of my, um, business— I wouldn't say business guru, she's more like my business superhero, Cindy Gallop, who her tagline on LinkedIn is, um, I'm the Michael Bay of business. I like to blow shit up. And she's this like fabulous former ad exec who's kind of living her amazing, fabulous life, jet-setting around the world. She's, I think, in her 60s now, and it's just how I want to be when I get a bit older. But she says that you should ask for the amount that— the highest amount that you can ask for without laughing. That's just such good advice with that playfulness in there, right? It makes it a bit of a game, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So where did the fear come from for you?

Well, I think, I think initially the fear was overridden, and maybe that was the cheat that got me into doing it. The fear was overridden, which was that I actually didn't want to do the role. I was done and I wanted to move on and start my academic career. And so it was kind of like, I actually don't care what the outcome is. So if I ask and they say no, like, that's still a fine outcome for me. Like, you know, and they did say no, right? And then when I, you know, I called their bluff, or they called my bluff, I guess. And so the fear was, was, I think normally would be, you know, fear of missing out, or, you know, if I don't ask for a low number, they're gonna say no. And, you know, that, that, like, that's scarcity mentality, I think.

Mm-hmm.

That I think keeps us playing small. And it's not just financial. I mean, that's kind of, you know, the way the world works, the way that we— the world that we live in is that's where we kind of measure it. But it's— I think it's all sorts of asking that we don't do because maybe there's a fear of being disappointed. So you're trying to avoid being disappointed.

Yeah. Fear of rejection.

Yep.

And maybe also the reputation. What if they see me as greedy?

Yeah, or, you know, high maintenance. I've been called high maintenance before, which is a very tender word.

Oh, the difficult one. Oh, you think you're special.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's incredible with, um, how much of these limiting beliefs are called out when it comes to money and these kind of negotiation situations. Yeah, yeah. And you define professionalism as false safety. Yeah. So what do you mean by that? And what is then unprofessionalism?

Well, I think it's sort of like when I think of unprofessionalism, it's— or professionalism, it's that you are, you know, I think about conversations with my mom who was like an '80s and '90s power woman, um, you know, like you have to wear a power suit and you can't get a tattoo and you have to do this. And it's— there's all of these rules about how you have to be. And I was like, I'm gonna dye my hair and get tattoos and get piercings and do all the things because I don't— if that's the cost of giving all that up, who I really want to be and expressing myself, if that's what I have to give up to do those things, I don't want to do those things. But then somehow it's okay to do those things now.

Right.

You meet 50-year-olds who've just gotten their first eyebrow piercing. So it's, it's, It's, it's, it's helpful that the world has shifted, but it's, you know, it's all these things and like, why does it matter? Those— does that— do those impact you having a job? So it's like dressing professionally, acting professionally, you know, having an office that's professional, working in a professional way because— and it's almost like a way of saying it's— that's how it's always been done. So that's, that's how we have to do it.

Yeah.

So I think COVID helped to change a lot of that as well.

That makes sense.

But it's, um, well, because it was— it forced us to, right? You know, it forced us to go, well, maybe we're going to be unprofessional by working from home, and our kids might be, you know, unprofessional in the sense of being messy, being unpolished, you know, showing your human side, showing your real side, showing your personal side, the things that can be vulnerable. Because that's, you know, if you think going back to that question about safety, it's, it's a way to, to put on these— this mask So that you're not actually showing that part of you that might be different or, um, that can be judged. And, you know, that you think of the office, the beige office and the beige suits, and everybody looks the same and dresses the same. And, you know, that archetype. And it still happens. I've gone into it, you know, with clients and some of them, it's still like Mad Men in there. And it's, it's a bit wild, um, to me that has, you know, never been interested in functioning in that space. But yeah, it's a way to almost get people— maybe it's a way to also ask people to be not confronting, right? Because it's easier if someone just shows up in a less confronting way and maybe doesn't show up with the messiness of life. Or the big thing now, I think, is around mental health and neurodivergence, right? It's easier if you don't bring all of that, I need an accommodation, or I need— flexibility for being a parent, which is again COVID. COVID has helped us with that. Yeah.

And then the professionalism helps us to structure, to make something predictable, to know how it will function. And then everything deviating from that, especially neurodivergence, doesn't fit in there.

Yeah.

Because it's a bit unpredictable. Yeah.

And it's, I think, also along those lines of the public and the private. So looking at like, if you— and, you know, thinking back to maybe when that really started to evolve around that thinking about the home is for the feminine, for the woman at home, thinking the '50s in the US. So did I— my research on Facebook looked at privacy and looking at what the meaning of privacy was. And that's very much around what is the home and what is outside of the home and what is private and what is public, professional, unprofessional. So it's— I think there's the gender even inscribed in there, right? As you wear the suit, you're the man, you go to work, you come home, your wife does this, You keep that stuff quiet. You don't say what happens in the house. The woman stays at home. And so even there, yeah.

Do you think then that social media and maybe Facebook in particular, and I also see it creeping in LinkedIn, helped to actually mix up the private and the professional and helps us maybe— does it help us to become more unprofessional, more real, more ourselves, more daring, or does it Even push us more into this competimentalization, if this is English.

I love this because I've not actually made this connection before, but looking at my— so my PhD looked at Facebook when it was back when it was cool and it was becoming a force in society and looking at how people use it and navigate privacy. And what that really meant to people was not, you know, is my data secure, but what is being shared about me? How am I managing my identity? And what I assumed in my research when I— because I started it in 2006, so Facebook was 2 years old at the time. So it's about 2022 now. So this is 20 years ago, right? So yeah, it's crazy to think we've had it for that long, but it is— it has changed and it has changed us. But back then, um, the way that people used Facebook was very different than how it is now. And I assumed that it was designed in this way that was almost like— I've seen there's an article called Autistic Social Software, I think it's by Dana Boyd, that writes about how, um, talks about how because there's a like a higher percentage of neurodivergence in Silicon Valley, that the way that they design social interactions is more reflective of that. So I had made this assumption that the way that Facebook was designed was maybe because of that.

Mm-hmm.

So back— and this is so funny and quaint to talk about now, but back then, originally Facebook was for college kids. It wasn't for everybody. So it's the way you behave when you're in college, right? It's accepted, but it doesn't usually go on public record forever.

Mm-hmm.

So when Facebook started to open up and become more of a public thing and even professional, you started to have situations where people would be fired for their behavior on Facebook. Or one of the people in my research, um, she was— she didn't drink ever, and then there was a photo of her pretending to drink this beer bottle, like chugging beer as a joke, and her landlord saw it and then was like questioning her about it. So the, the term in academia, or the research term, is called context collapse.

Mm-hmm.

So it's the idea that normally in every aspect of life we have different ways of behaving and that's normal. And so Facebook came and collapsed that. And my assumption was, oh, this must be just because they haven't really thought about how people, most people behave.

Hmm.

So, um, so I was at South by Southwest in 2007 and Mark Zuckerberg was there to do a keynote. And I went to a Facebook party and had, had a chat with him back in the day, as you do.

Oh wow.

And asked him about this. And I said, you know, now that you see that it's causing all these problems, are you going to change, change the design so that people can manage their different contexts differently? And he said no, that was, that was his intention all along, and that he believed that if you're different in different aspects of your life, you're lying. And so this completely blew my mind because I just assumed it was a mistake, and No, he was like, no, this is intentional. And it completely changed my PhD. And I looked into how Facebook had— was pushing people to be real. So at the time on the internet, people were using handles, fake names, usernames, playing with their identity. And they decided that they wanted everybody to be their real selves and be the same in every aspect of their life.

Hmm.

So what happened was, is you went from the internet being this place Where everybody is playing with their identity and, you know, being unprofessional, to a place where we all just perform our perfect selves, being professional, right?

Yeah. It— and it could have been— it sounds almost as if the intentions were really nice. What if we could be the same person and be accepted for being this person all across?

It's called radical transparency, is the philosophy.

Yeah. And somehow, yeah, this didn't work, but it blew the lines between the personal and the professional. And I remember you telling me that you gave a keynote on what you learned about business from dating.

This comes to mind because it's similar where you totally blur the lines. Yes. So I, I, um, I'm working— so this is at the LEGO Serious Play, the International LEGO Serious Play Conference in Denmark at LEGOLAND, which I think is also another kind of unprofessional thing, right? We're going to a theme park for kids and having a business conference about a children's toy. So there's that. And so I went there to talk about my use of, um, Lego serious play, which is a serious use of Lego that we can get into. But my adaptation of it for connection and dating and what I learned from that and how you can actually make Lego serious play better by building in more trust and safety and curiosity so that it becomes a better tool for connection. So it is. Yeah. So I'm working on a book now about that, about lessons from dating that you can apply to business and vice versa.

So what is one lesson that you, that you learned from dating that you would apply to business?

Um, I think it's, it's a combined one. It's believe what people, how people tell you they're going to be. So like believe first impressions. Um, so if you have a client who's behaving in a certain way at the beginning and you're looking at doing a longer-term engagement with them, And, you know, maybe they ask for too much or don't respect you or don't show up to the meetings or everything's done by committee. That's, you know, that's, that's how it's going to be the rest of the time. It's not going to get any better. It'll get worse. Yeah, if anything.

I would love to spend a moment longer there. Because it's— I think it beautifully fits into the theme of unprofessionalism, where it's all about first impressions. That's why people wear suits. That's why there are all these unwritten rules that we are so scared to overstep or to ignore. Where do you then find the Where is space for being more human, more authentic, more courageous, more different, more neurospicy if the first impression is so important?

I'm not sure that they're at odds because I really like working with neurodivergent people. So you can often tell if someone else is neurodivergent. And so that's also, that's a good first impression for me. But then it also means that I might be more accommodating to know, okay, if that person's neurodivergent, then there's other things we need to do to make sure that the meeting happens on time, for example. So it's not necessary— is it, is it their neurodivergent— is it their, say, late to the meeting because they disrespect you, or are they late to the meeting because they're neurodivergent, have ADHD?

Or it's part of the culture where everyone's just Feminine is like, yeah. And then, okay, so I reinterpret your, um, your finding to, it's even more important to be real on the first impression too, because if you fake it—

Yes, yes.

It's like, yeah, it is. I was about to say, oh, it's like on the first date. Yes, that's exactly what you said, right? If you, you don't want to fake it and then end up in a relationship with the other person expecting you to be someone who you're actually not comfortable being. Exactly.

Yes. So I found out that I have ADHD maybe 3 or 4— 3 years ago, 2 or 3 years ago. Um, and just being able to say that and say that to other people who may also be neurodivergent has been a huge relief because it makes it easier for me to not be so hard on myself, but just to go, if I've made this mistake— because I make mistakes all the time, like little mistakes— it's not because of It's because of, you know, I have ADHD. So, and we can make it often if it's another ADHD person, we can just laugh about it. So it's, you know, it's just being clear that I'm not disrespecting you, but this is just how I operate. And, you know, if that doesn't work, then that's okay, right? We don't have to work. And that's often why I want to have a chat with people first to find out, is it a good fit? Not just for me, but for you, for both of us to see if that's a good fit. And if it's not, that's totally fine.

Yeah, and how to then find workarounds, because a mistake here and there might not be a problem, or it might be a big one because it infuses this uncertainty. And then how can we work around? Yeah. And it's interesting because— so the making mistakes is another beautiful example for professional unprofessionalism, right?

Yes, because mistakes are very unprofessional, aren't they?

Yeah, and especially if it's reckless.

Yes.

And then if you make a mistake because you thought it was right, so you actually put intention in and you thought it through and it was still a mistake, is it then still unprofessional?

I'm not sure.

Right? Or if you're—

It's like a philosophy question, right?

Yeah. And if your condition got you to make mistakes. Because your brain functions differently, is this then unprofessional?

I mean, the challenge, I guess, and maybe what the nut of the question is, is because I don't see, for example, ADHD as like— it's not— I don't see it as like this. It's like a benchmark for me to understand how I function. And so instead of going using it as an excuse for everything, it's going, okay, well, if this is the way that I function, then I need to do these things. And I'm going to have reminders and alarms and all of these systems to support me not making mistakes or not showing up late. And so I think it's really— people, there's— I think not everybody wants to get diagnosed. Not everybody finds it helpful. There's many reasons why to do it or to not. And I think that for me, it was like a way— and I hear this from a lot of people who— a lot of other women who've— gotten late diagnosis like me, often because they've, they've met me. And I found it out because of the LEGO Serious Play community. So it's like we're all kind of going, oh, if you're like that, then, you know, maybe there's, there's something else going on that explains, explains myself. But it's, um, there's a choice. It's like a way to go, okay, am I gonna just say this is how I am and that's it, or is it a growth thing?

Hmm.

Um, because I've done— I've tried to have events for people with ADHD And the problem is that you get people in various stages of their journey with it, and it doesn't really work for a variety of reasons, and it makes me really stressed out as an event organizer. So I think it's— yeah, there's a fine balance between disclosing and saying where you're at, but also taking responsibility to do—

Mm-hmm.

But also like, you know, just doing your best all the time and not Yeah, it's a, it's a very fine line.

Yeah, because I think, yes, what brings up is how do you disclose it? How do you treat— are you responsible, um, and have agency in it, or do you take it as an excuse? I—

well, I think there— I think it's, it's sort of like there's things I can't change, but there's things I can make systems around.

Yeah.

So I would say that, you know, before I even got my— I don't even like to use the word diagnosis because it's not like I have an illness or something. It's whatever you want to call it. Maybe I don't want to use that word, but I don't have a better word for it. When I found out, I had already redesigned my whole life to be working the way that I want. And I think that initial story I told about negotiating was my first foray into that. And so I don't think I could ever go back. And even when I did have jobs, like working for someone else, there were always things like being an academic, which is, you know, it's very, you know, it's almost made for people who are neurodivergent. Maybe before that was the thing, because you're very much in control of how you work.

Yeah.

So I've always had a lot of control, even in the more traditional work roles. And so I think it's— and it's hard if you don't have that much control. But I think it's just you get to the point where it's like, I need to be able to control how I work and when I work and where I work and all of those things. And so I can maybe— I can't maybe change some things, but I can change everything around me so that those mistakes don't happen. So there's all sorts of things like having AirTags on all my stuff and having like— I've just rearranged my wardrobe so that I have this drawer that's the purse, the bag filling station. that has all the things that need to go in my bag when I leave, and then I come home and put them back. Because before, I was— I would have 10 different bags that had all these different things, and I couldn't find where anything was. And then there's this decision fatigue about where to come home and where to put the things. And once everything has a place, it's organized. So it's just going, what do I need that will work for me, rather than trying to work in a way that is how I'm supposed to work? You know, it might be unprofessional for me to do it, but If I'm gonna work at my best, I need, I need it to be like that. Otherwise, I'm just gonna be mean to myself and feel ashamed and embarrassed that I can't just do it like the normal people.

Hmm. And I wonder whether in this sense, actually, the workplace work environment became more open for air quotes unprofessionalism in a sense that We are invited to disclose these kind of things nowadays, whereas back in the days it's like, oh, we're not interested in your diagnosis.

Okay.

It's your responsibility to, um, to get organized, and the same rules apply for everyone. And now it's, um, more supporting, maybe just the— by the fact that we can speak about it.

Yes, yes.

So there is hope?

Yes, I think so.

Yeah. And you've experienced the corporate world before you left for Australia, you've experienced academia, and you've experienced self-employment. You're an entrepreneur and you have a business with your partner.

Yes.

I would be curious how you experience this tension of professionalism and unprofessionalism throughout these different contexts.

Well, even the closest thing I had to a corporate role was actually working for a nonprofit. So I've never actually worked in corporate. I think there's a reason why. So the Jobs outside of academia, the roles outside of academia have been largely at nonprofits, which I think for whatever reason are a bit more chill, a bit more innovative, or at least that was my experience. There's other downsides to it. But how did I experience— do you mean like what's the difference between those different situations? Like how did I— what did I—

What does professionalism mean in the different worlds? Of breaking the norms?

It's a good question. I think I didn't experience the nonprofit sector to be— it was a lot more okay with being unprofessional, probably because there's a lot less money at stake. So it's okay to show up to work. In not like a 3-piece suit, for example. Yeah. But I would say academia was the most interesting in terms of professionalism, because it's very, very hierarchical, hierarchical, and has lots of rules about how you have to behave. And things like on your business card, you have to— and as your signature in your email, you have to write what degrees you've had, and then there's codes for an abbreviation for each university. So it's not just you say that you did an undergraduate, it has to be at the University of Toronto, and then that's U of T. And then there's— it's all these things. So it's your rank and your education, and all of these things matter so much, and your publications, and which publications, and what journals, and how many, you know, what's your citation index, and how many people have have referenced you. And so there's all of these things that just don't matter in the real world, but are very codified as to what being a professional academic was. And I remember when I started working for myself while I was an academic. So I started doing like side hustles, mostly because I wanted to something— it was not, not as a business, but more of like a passion. So that was when I started— I was doing research on Facebook, very serious stuff, and that was when I started getting into games and play on the side, sort of like a mental health thing. But that became, became my full-time focus. Um, but I had people saying to me, you need to be a serious academic, you need to be more serious. And that was really interesting because it's like, well, what does that mean? And, and one of the things was, don't spend your time doing things like a TEDx talk. That's not serious. And then the university that this happened at, a few years later, sponsored TEDx, the TEDx that I spoke at. And I walked in on 2 professors watching my talk and making fun of me. But then one of them asked for a reference from me. Well, he didn't actually. He put me down as a reference without asking me. To speak at TEDx. And so that was a very interesting experience because it, I guess at the end of it, the point of it to me wasn't almost you need to be a more serious academic. It was more maybe you're a threat to us and we're gonna use the academic system to try and control you.

Hmm.

When I looked back, I had not actually thought about it in that way, but I think that that It's almost like a way to like weaponize, because it's very difficult to be a young woman in academia. Yes, in many places, but academia is very difficult for young women.

Yeah, and it's interesting because I have the impression that the threat of being called unprofessional, not serious, is very prominent also in the corporate world from what I Heard. And it is this— it is the set of unspoken rules where nobody is actually telling you what's going on, but it's hanging there as a kind of— Yeah.

And in education, it's called the hidden curriculum. And so it's this idea that you get taught the hidden curriculum by your parents. And so that's why class and Your ability to earn money in life is passed on because your parents teach you the things that you need to know to behave professionally or properly, right? Like rules of etiquette. So if you are going to university and you haven't been taught these things, even how to like— you go to a lot of conference banquets, right, as an academic. So you have to know how to eat properly.

Yeah.

So there's all of these things that we, we, that we can use, that we as humans use to signal to each other, you know, like what, what you're— the watch that you're wearing, what clothes you're wearing, all, all of these things. And so it, yeah, it's, it's, it's a way that we maintain that power. Um, and if your parents don't teach you those, and that's why often you have— it's a big deal when it's the first person in the family to go to university. Because they have to overcome so much more than someone who's like, their parents have gone to university, right? Even just that idea, like, I can do that, right? If you can see them, you can be them. And if you don't see that in your family, because it's scary and prohibitive, there's all these, you know, you're worried about breaking those hidden curriculum rules.

Yeah. And then potentially have parents who show you that it's okay to break some of those rules. Right, that it's okay to have a side interest in games and play.

Yes.

For your mental health, um, and to do a TEDx talk, although it's not considered academic enough. So to, yeah, to build the confidence, or at least the permission.

That didn't come from my parents, and I don't actually know where that came from. Oh, I think I actually think that, that I have a talk that I do about this, which is that so there's, there's some new research coming out that looks at how when you have ADHD, one of your superpowers, it's a double-edged sword, is you cannot not be curious. Like you just have—

when you—

curiosity is this thing that you have to follow. And I think they call it turbo curiosity in this research paper. But it's this idea that when you become— and sort of another way of looking at it is a hyperfixation. So when you become curious about something, it's like you have to follow that thing. So for me, it was the internet and then it was games. And when I speak to kids and young people, I say I do the 2 things my parents hated me doing, which is going on the internet and video games. But because I was so curious about these things, that was— I had no plan, no strategy. I'm a lot more strategic now, but I just— it was like, I'm gonna go to Australia to do a PhD because I wrote a paper about it because as an undergrad, because I was curious. And I looked back and it was like, why, why did I have— like, where did that come from? You don't write a paper as an undergrad on, on the internet. And this is 2003, 2004. And, uh, and yeah, luckily I had a professor who wanted to learn more about the internet and, um, and, and said, let's work together. But it was all just sort of luck and me following this curiosity that got me to do these things. And yeah, it wasn't the fear. The curiosity overcame the fear or the idea that you shouldn't present that paper, you shouldn't move to Australia, you shouldn't do all— you know, it was just like, I need to— I'm obsessed with this thing. I need to follow. I need to keep going down the rabbit hole.

Yeah. Now you're out of academia, you have your own business. How does your— how do you give space to your, I would call it quirkiness, with your various ideas and the ambition or the creativity to do things differently while maintaining this professional image? Because you're in Western Australia, so it's a rather conservative environment, I would say.

Yes, yes, that's an interesting one. So I think it's turned into an advantage because I often get asked to come in to do the thing that's different. we want something different. That's the brief. So it's kind of become the, I guess, unique selling proposition of what I do is that I come in, I bring Lego, we talk about curiosity and play. It's all very interactive. And it's something that I guess can be tolerated for an hour, an hour and a half. Sometimes we get up to a half day. And I think that that wouldn't— I, I, I'm guessing here, but I don't know if that would actually work as a full-time thing in an organization. But it's like a safe way to do something different that isn't, um, you know, it still has the, you know, I still have the academic background. We still have Lego Serious Play. It has the word serious in it. It was developed by 2 European business professors. So it has all of the things that make it safe for people to say yes. And in the keynote that I do before we get into the interactive stuff, I talk about the research behind it and I talk about all the big companies that use it. So to say, you know, we're not just going to muck around here, we're, we're doing something that's backed by research and it's used by, by big companies around the world. And, um, I, I did a talk last year, actually it was early this year, it was a few months ago. I can't believe it's almost August. It is August. Yeah. So I think it was in January or February, and I got a message. So it was a, it was an event for recruiting professionals, employment professionals, and at this big well-known brand in Melbourne. And I got a message from one of the guys at the end. on LinkedIn. And he said, I came to your event, and I refused to participate. I didn't want to build anything with LEGO because I was like, what is a bunch of serious professionals doing spending the afternoon playing with LEGO? What could possibly be learned from this? And I went home, and I thought about this. And I was like, what does this mean about me? And now I'm curious about myself.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm thinking about myself and where I might need to grow. And he said, I don't know if this is your intention, this is your plan all along, but you did something. And I asked him if he could use the story, and he thankfully said yes. But I think that, that kind of result is, even though it's, you know, it's coming in and it's, it's safe, it's only for half a day, for a few hours, um, it still ticks the boxes for the organization, for the company, and I can still be a little bit transformative and, you know, have powerful results for every individual because every person has their own thing that happens.

Yeah.

So it's— yeah, so it's— I think it's like you have to meet people where they're at. So I am able to frame it in a way that goes, this is professional, it's safe. You're not doing something crazy. You're not doing something that is a waste of time. You're going to do something that actually makes a difference.

Yeah.

And I think that's, yeah, that's the happy, the happy niche that I found myself in. And I think having a PhD probably helps as well.

I was right. Yeah, I was about to say that. And I think it's also the experience that I had. It's coming back to the false safety, right? Yeah. So we show them the PhD, it's a false safety, and then we can do the The unconventional things.

Yes.

Yeah, a bit more of carte blanche because they assume that you thought it through. Yes.

Yeah. So you do have to provide the professional safety net.

Yeah.

For you to be quote unquote unprofessional inside that.

Yeah.

Because that's where you can do the things that really move the needle.

What would be an unprofessional thing that you would still advise others to do?

Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's, it's that is to— I'm not— maybe it isn't. Is it unprofessional? I think the big one that I keep, I keep coming back to is that is trusting your own, trusting your intuition. I think intuition is, is one of those things that's kind of still unprofessional but is moving to be more professional. But I've had a few conversations and situations recently where I've been told one thing, like, you can't charge that, by someone who, you know, has a lot of experience in the industry and should know, you know, would know. And then me going, I think I can charge double, and then doing it repeatedly. But it was because I— it was that feeling, like that trust of my intuition saying that I could do that. Rather than, you know, trusting the professional person, you know, the person who knows more, who's the, you know, the, the speaking business professional. So yeah, trusting your gut, because I think that that was— I had my curiosity, but I ignored my intuition for a very long time. And it's been coming back to that, being able to trust my intuition and really just go, okay, I don't know why.

Mm-hmm.

I don't know why I'm being called to do this thing. Yeah, but stuff happens and it's magic.

Thank you so much.

My pleasure.