How to Get Rich [Full Interview with Dave Ramsey]

Bring on a Demic. I got cash. And that's how I went broke.

Walk me through how you ended up scaling that. If you had advice that you could give 40 year old Dave, what would you tell him? I am super thrilled to be here today because Dave's a legend and I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a little bit of an intro. From my perspective of you, this is a little scary. And I actually wanted to take the first, like, few minutes to actually just kind of like hype Dave. And I think it's because, like, in the marketplace of attention right now, I actually still think you're underpriced. I still think that you are underappreciated for the amount of value that you provide to the audience at large. And flattery will get you everywhere. Got me here. But one of the things I wanted to hit on was like, I see, and I'm sure you do or your team does. Like, there are a lot of people who take, you know, I'll use the term fake gurus, but a lot of people who haven't achieved, you know, a 100th of the level of success that you have that take a lot of shots and at you and, you know, a lot specifically around your views on debt. But sometimes just in general, and you know, we have a big belief at, @acquisite.com that the only people ever hate you are never ahead of you. And I feel like that's been extremely true and been tough for people to be ahead of you, you in general. But I just want to give context for my audience that, number one, you've been doing this for three decades. Yeah, a little over three decades. And your overnight three decade success.

Yeah, for real. Just in time to get old.

And what I'm going to be directing the conversation today around is actually around business stuff. So Dave has a zillion things on personal finance. I mean, I think that was the, know the, the wedge product that.

Absolutely.

A lot of everything. But because our audience is predominantly business owners, I want to focus on the actual building of Ramsey Solutions and kind of some of the things that you, that you learned along the way, some of the big mistakes that you did, some things that you go back in time and would have done differently and even as you've kind of scaled the brand. So that's kind of the direction that work.

Sure.

Okay, so can you give a little bit of background in terms of how Ramsey Solutions, the education business, which was the first business. Correct.

They've all kind of evolved together.

Okay, how did that come to Be. And then what was your thinking around the business model at that time? And like, what has it evolved into?

Well, all of it started extremely primitive. I mean like one plus one equals two, barely, you know, kind of thing. And so like, for instance, we started, I went down, there's a talk radio show or a talk radio station in Nashville at the time that was in Chapter 11 bankruptcy. And there was a guy doing a bad financial show, like a Saturday Night Live skit, you know, on there. I went on as a guest on the bad financial show. And I didn't have any books. I just went on for fun. I was actually promoting a real estate club I was in. And he said, hey, I hear you're helping people with your fork with foreclosures and helping them stop getting their car repoed or if they're having financial trouble over at your church, Are you doing that? And I said, yeah, I'm just kind of doing that for fun, just to help folk as a ministry at the church. And he goes, well, if you got any questions about that call up. And phone rang. And he never got any phone calls. He didn't know what to do, even know how to put the guy on the air. And so he said, hey, come back, let's do that again, because his phone never rings. And so I went, I did it like two times. And then he quit. And then we went down, talked that guy that was running that station into letting us work for free. And so a couple guys, me and a couple other guys went on the air answering questions in a really heavy hillbilly twang. Wwtn, you're talking Nashville, y' all call in. I mean, it was, it was nasty, buddy, I'm telling you, it was nasty. And, but the information was good. And the phone rang from the very first day at about the same time I had finished writing on my laptop in my living room on the very first version of windows. This is 1992, my first book, and I self published it. Carried home in the trunk of my car, got a thousand copies and I went on the radio and said, hey, y' all can get my book. And some people did. And the 18 months later, to get to your question, we moved the card table out of my living room and one old beat up desk from the days when I went bankrupt and open an office in an 800 square foot month to month rent. And me and another guy, the other guy was going to do financial coaching the way I teach to do that. I was going to continue to do that. And we launched In April of 1994, a class on how to handle money. It was actually how to avoid bankruptcy. And one of the lessons was on the different types of bankruptcy. One of the lessons was on how to stop a foreclosure if it's an fha, if it's a VA or if it's Fannie Mae, different processes to stop a foreclosure. And, you know, all these different things. And the people that came weren't bankrupt. They were just making a lot of money and spending it all. So they were broke. It was all the money comes in, all the money goes out. Only the names are changed to protect the innocent. But they weren't behind on their house payment. They just were fighting with each other in their marriage, and they didn't know how to do a budget, and no one ever told them about insurance. So I took the bankruptcy and the foreclosure lesson out and replaced it with a retirement lesson. And here's how investments work. Lesson, compound interest. Whoa. Which is, you know, still for the general public, causes their brains to just go melt down in a wonderful way the first time you see compound interest, Right? And so, yeah, we. That was called life after debt in April. And four people came the first night. I sold three of them. So for you digital people, I had a 75% conversion rate set up, right? But I'm telling you, it was primitive overhead projector, bad suit, you know, that whole thing. And then we changed it to called it Financial Peace University five months later, in September, six months later. And now Financial Peace University's had 10 million people go through it and 50,000 churches have taught it.

Unbelievable. So for context, the services that you had was education with some level of service, kind of like holding accountable or keeping them consistent on top of that. Which. The reason that I was really intent on talking to you was that in the space that we're in today, and obviously the marketplace has changed a lot. You have an education business, and I would say that the vast majority of, quote, education businesses are not perceived as legitimate. How do you think you've been able to anchor in it? It's very clear that Range Solutions is a legitimate business, obviously. But what do you. Why do you think that so many of them are not perceived that way? What's the gap? What are people missing there?

I honestly don't know. I know that in the financial world in general, and I think most of your listeners and you and I will agree to this, that there's a lot of us. I grew up in that world, and I'm A nerd by nature and got a degree in finance, for God's sakes. And so, in other words, I thought the way to fix everything was with the math. And math treats the symptom, not the problem. And our brand differentiator, and it may be the difference in what you're talking about as well, is that we did come to understand that it's a behavior problem. It's personal finances, 80% behavior, 20% head knowledge. I've said that, like, I don't know, 8 million times in 30 years, but it is. And the problem with my money is the guy in my mirror. If I can get him to behave, he can be skinny and rich. And we've talked about this, these lines, these riffs that we do, and we do them over and over and over and over and over again. But that's the differentiator. That's the thing that said, oh, yeah, because I mean, knowing how to do a budget is different than actually doing one. Knowing how to live on less than you make or that you should is different than actually doing it. Knowing that eating 73 donuts will make me fat is different than not eating 73 donuts. Right. Personal testimony. But the. But yeah, that stuff, I think that's the difference. And then what has happened is that if you go through and you do the stuff that we teach and we've got the systems in place to help you be held accountable, to do it and encourage you when you're struggling and scared and hopeless. But if you're arrogant and prideful, either way, we're going to be there in your grill saying, we love you so much that you need to change. If you do the stuff and you actually make the changes due to the accountability that because keep doing what you've been doing, you can keep getting what you've been getting. So you got to change the recipe. So if you change the recipe, you have success and lives transformed. Is legitimacy that gives you legitimacy. And so in other words, I don't know if they set out to be illegitimate, but they didn't. Maybe they didn't have the. The life wasn't actually changed. You know, if I join a gym and then I don't get anything out of that. I don't have any weight loss, no increased muscle tone, no increased aerobic. Whatever it is you're trying to accomplish, if I don't get any of that, even if it's my fault, it feels like the gym is illegitimate. I don't think the gym's necessarily illegitimate, but the results were illegitimate. And so then you get labeled that way. And so I hear people say, Dave Ramsey stuff doesn't work. The haters. Right? And it absolutely does not work unless you work it.

Yeah. Like, I guarantee that I can make.

You that personal guarantee.

Shifting back to the business, explain to me how the actual product suite developed over time. So in the beginning, you had the education and then you had the services that layered on top of that. Was that the main thing for like a decade or. And like, walk me through how you ended up scaling that. Was that all through media?

Okay. The radio show didn't make money for a decade because they don't pay you to do radio. Even today I don't get paid by radio stations. I have a clock split with them. And so. And we didn't have anything to sell when we split the clock. And so we didn't make any money. So whatever we put into radio was lost dollars. But it was the megaphone. It was the lead mechanism. Okay. And so I started doing some speaking and I thought, hey, we could do like a little public event in town because we were only on the air in one time. But so we went on the radio and announced. And I think we had, I don't know, 100 people or something come out and paid us like 40 bucks or something to sit for three hours or five hours or whatever it was and listen to me yammer in my hillbilly twang about getting out of debt. And so we had live events started to develop. We had the little book, so we had a little bit of a publishing thing going. And we had the class itself, which is a long form. It's a combination of 12 step and curriculum, so to speak. And so radio publishing, live events, those were the first. And what becomes Financial Peace University were the first element. Oh, and one on one coaching, one on one counseling, we called it in those days. We now call it financial coaching. So there's no confusion that we're not licensed therapists because some people can't seem to. It's not clear. But anyway, coaching is hard to mess that up. So, yeah, so we do that. And each of those things grew at different rates. And so there were different times in the 30 years that financial Peace University was bringing in the lion's share of the money. And then publishing would come up and pass it. Live events has pretty much always been a slightly profitable but really good secondary lead source. So if you come to a live event because you heard us on the radio, it's going down the funnel, the marketing funnel, so to speak. And then they might buy Financial Peace University, which is, you know, a nine week commitment and a higher, you know, Instead of a $20 event ticket, it's $80 to go through it or whatever. So we were working that there and there were always books on the back table too. And so once those things worked and the book, and we had a New York Times, you know, the book eventually evolved and was purchased by a publisher and became our first New York Times bestseller. Once that happened, and then we start doing a bunch of, we start getting more and more radio stations and doing more and more media. So instead of just doing the local news guy, we actually, with the book tour the first time got on the Today show and. And then that opened up something. Then that opened up something. And then pretty much been doing New York media for 25 years. Obviously all that's free, but it's lead generation.

And so if I were to say this back to you, the radio station served as the big megaphone to gather attention and then point it in a direction. And one of the places you'd point it in the earlier days was the live events, which functioned a little bit as a conversion event for you guys from a business perspective. And then those people would get funneled into whatever was appropriate for their budget. You know, either they'd buy some books or they'd buy the curriculum. Where they buy the curriculum and some one on one counsel, one on one financial coaching. And then that machine has been what you've continued to spin the wheel on and then gathering more and more and more media.

Yeah, we've got, and we've got more and more product mix. Okay. I mean, we've got, you know, we ended up, I advertised for a stock brokerage firm and then when I sent the leads, the people would go over there. The local broker that they went to would tell them to do stuff that I had just told them on the air not to. And so that didn't work. And people are pissed off. Yeah. And so we said, well guys, y' all can't do that with the leads we send you. Well, you can't tell us what to do. And I said, I can tell you, you can't advertise, so we're not gonna be on the air. So we dropped folk. And so the product suite from there, that was the core initial product mix. And then what we did was we would hear about some need that was a similar thing, but a finger off of that. So for instance, a local coach at a Catholic high school took my financial peace book and started teaching his seniors because they needed to know about personal finance. And then call me up and goes, hey, I hope you don't mind. I'm like, well, I don't mind and I'm kind of complicated, but let's work together on this. Let me help. So I went over and spoke to him a couple times. They're sweet kids and he's a great guy. Greg Carson, he's a friend to this day. And we ended up out of that, developing a high school curriculum that's now been taught in 48% of the high schools. Six and a half million kids have been through it. And so, you know, that was again, another product line and that ED Solutions is another department, if you will, inside of Ramsey today. And pretty substantial revenues for high school, college and even middle school curriculum. And then, you know, corporate America says, okay, we'd like for our employees to get this stuff. So we take a modified version of the Financial Peace University that doesn't have as much of the Bible stuff in it. And we have to not violate some HR rules and stuff. So we had to change some of it, make it a little more vanilla on different things. And it's called Smart Dollar. And gosh, man, lots. I don't know. 10,000 companies have now taught it, including big ones like U Haul and Costco. All of their employees have gone through it. So that's a whole other product. But it's, you know, so the brand suite or the product suite continues to evolve as we look at different things, where we can serve. We took over all the publishing and so we do all our books now self published have for about a decade.

How do you think about spinning out new products? Like what to do versus like, because there's obviously focus in a business, right? You have limited time and resources. Like how do you say this is going to be something we're going to just partner with someone on or this is going to be something we're going to bring in house and actually own entirely or just not do it all and ignore and just let somebody make some extra cash on it and we just don't worry about it.

Yeah, well, one thing we don't do is we don't. We have made a conscious philosophical decision to not sell financial products. So we don't sell insurance, we don't sell investments, we don't sell real estate. We endorse people that do, but they don't work for us. They're advertisers of sorts. Endorse in our Ramsey. Trusted is what it falls under that brand so some of them have ads on the podcast. Some of them we say, go to the website, fill out a form, you find the realtor we recommend in your area. That's Ramsey trusted, that kind of thing. And so that way when I'm giving real estate advice, someone doesn't say, oh, he's just trying to get us to do that. Now they still say he's trying to just get us to be a real estate lead, but that's different than he's trying to sell me a house or he's trying to sell me a mutual fund. We don't endorse particular mutual funds and we don't sell investments like that. So you can't say the reason Dave does insurance is because or says term by term insurance is because he owns a term insurance firm, because I don't. And you know, one of the lies out there floating around is I own half of Churchill Mortgage, which I don't own a dime of. It'd been nice if I had. I've done really well and I don't. I own half or some of Zander Insurance or both. Advertisers been with me 26, 27 years consecutively. And. But I don't own any of those. They're just, they're, they're friends of mine, but I'm doing business with them for three decades and they do really well and I do a great job for our listener.

And so those are media partnerships. So they're sponsors and that's how you.

That'S all they are. I mean, they're just advertisers on the, on the original talk radio show, which is now like you guys. I mean, podcast and YouTubes and TikToks and everything. Yeah.

What have been some of the major beliefs that you had to break along the journey from. And if so, what's. What's top line revenue today across all of the portfolio. I'm calling portfolio, I'm using my own language, but across Ramsey Solutions.

Ramsey Solutions revs will be a little over 300 million this year.

Okay, so for context in terms of size here, for my audience, 300 a lot. So what, what, what were some of the. Because, you know, a lot of businesses grow, at least in my observation of businesses, is they're, they're stepwise and it's, they'll, they'll grow, they'll grow and then they'll hit something and then they stay there until they figure out whatever that thing was and then they go super fast again and then they hit another wall and they keep going what have been some of the, you know, two or three major pivot points in the business in terms of your lessons or beliefs that you had to reshape that allowed you to break through to new levels of growth.

You know, I think because the product line was so diverse, the different ones of those were stepping at different times and it caused our actual revenue growth to not stair step but to be fairly smooth on a curve. Got it. But like, you know, if we went for instance to Financial Peace University, it went through different seasons where it would go weeee and then it would stop and it would just sit, you know and we're kind of in one of those stop and sit modes now because we're making this transition from being primarily church distributed because churches aren't teaching classes like that in this current environment as much as they used to. And so we've got to have a more direct to consumer digital distribution methodology and we're discovering that right now. So it's plateaued right now.

Got it.

Financial University is awesome. It's excellent. But from a business revenue perspective, business model, its big spike would have been the mid 2000s. I mean it made, whoo. It went crazy up and it was kind of like the 800 pound gorilla revenue wise inside the building and then it moved over to the other thing. So what are your question is not the stair step. The question. Your question was what are some milestones along the way like lessons, beliefs that.

You had to shift that allowed you to be an entrepreneur that could get to, I mean 10. I mean do you remember when you hit your first $10 million year 30 and your first hundred and your first, you know, any, any big changes that happened in you as a person that, that you can denote and say I learned this and this is why we were able to break through that.

Yeah, I, I figured out fairly early that, that organizations are not going to outgrow the character and intellectual capacity of their leadership, primarily me. And so if I'm, if I remain dumb in some of the areas I'm dumb in, then we're not going to be at 600 million. You know, I've got a, or somebody else will be doing it and if they remain dumb, they can't. You just can't do it. I mean there's stuff you don't know. And so I was a, I grew up in a real estate household. Mom and daddy were in residential real estate business and so I've been selling my whole life. Straight commission for me. But self employment is a. Isn't my DNA. I Don't. I don't know how to think about working for someone. And when you grow up in that world, you know, you learn to kill it and drag it home, because you ain't got anything to eat if you don't kill something and drag it home. And so very tactical. And so I couldn't spell strategic when we started and we got large enough that we started hiring these things called MBAs, and these people that actually had. And now over the years, I've got a ton of MBAs on the team. And I love the MBA programs. Most of them that are out there, they do a really good job of teaching. But one of the things I learned Almost universally about MBAs, they are heavily steeped in strategic thought. And so the MBAs on our team and me about 20 years ago made a really good trade. They taught me how to think strategically because I didn't know how. And I taught them how to work. So it was a good trade.

And so would you say that basically them coming in and talking strategy was like a big unlock in terms of.

Critical thinking skills, the way you solve a business problem? How do you, you know, I would just go in there and go, okay, the answer is activity. Just go run into the wall enough times and the wall will fall down. Meanwhile, the NBA standing over the side going, hey, Dave, over here there's a door. If you just walk around, I mean, you don't have to run into the stupid wall. This is dumb. And so because they're looking down on the maze, the lamberth and can see the way through, and I'm just going, just get after it. Just get in there and hustle, you know, and you need to have both. You gotta have the energy of the hustle and grind and the. Because when in doubt, activity is the answer. But unfocused, unplanned activity is not always fun. It causes pain sometimes too. So we're much better at what my friend Jim Collins calls calibrated cannonballs now than just firing cannonballs, which.

From a branding perspective, because I think you have developed a really strong brand. What are, what are some of the deliberate decisions you've had to make to associate with versus not associating with in order to continue to strengthen the brand, expand the media. Because I would imagine like in the flywheel that is Ramsey Solutions, the media is a huge part of that. And so, like, what has been one of the big things that kept that wheel spinning and expanding compared to the many other people who try to. To top you? I mean, even the people trying to get more audience, more earballs.

Yeah. I. I don't know. We discovered. I don't know how we figured it out. It was accidental, I guess. It was people getting pissed at us. In the early days. Well, you know, like, we would endorse something on the radio, just local t. Local radio station, and, you know, go to such. And such a car lot. Well, somebody go over there and they go, the guy tried to screw me, David. Call me up on the air or call me up at my house, you know, find me in the mall and go, you. The guy you sent me to is a dad gum crook, Ramsey. And so now I can't trust you. Yeah. And. And I would lose the advertiser because I would have to cancel them because I was ashamed of them. And so somewhere along, the doing stupid stuff like not vetting who we're going to associate our brand with instead of just buying. Oh, we were so happy. We had an ad sold, you know, revenue. My God. And then you figure out that doesn't play well because you're destroying your credibility with the market. We figured out we were a trust brand, and radio endorsement taught us to be trustworthy, worthy of trust. And so we were very careful. As a matter of fact, just a few minutes ago, I came out of a meeting where I turned down two potential advertisers, and the sales team said, we think we need to turn these down, but before we do, it's a lot of money. We need to ask you. And I said, yeah, that guy. If we put that guy on, he's gonna. It's gonna. Cause our audience is not. No, that's not okay. So would you send your sister there? Would you send your mom there? Would you send your friend that you play softball with? You know, would you send them over there? And if they don't pass that acid test, we don't put them on the air. So if I won't really buy it, or I don't really believe someone should buy it for their own good, I mean, like, 100% of the things we advertise, I don't necessarily buy personally at my stage of life, but I'm not the market for them either, so. But. But I do believe in them, and I believe they're good for you. And sometimes we mess that up. We've endorsed things we shouldn't have endorsed in the early days even. I mean, in the last few years, I've had a really disastrous one that was a mess. It's caused me all kinds of problems. But, you know, initially started out Good and then turned bad. And we didn't. We didn't cut them off fast enough. And that's our fault for not cutting them off. But we weren't doing it for money. We were trying to help people. And so it's a trust brand. And so no single relationship advertiser endorsement, it could not possibly give you enough revenue in our world to offset the damage it will do if they don't take care of the customer, because all we've got is trust. And if they don't trust us for that, they also aren't going to trust us when we tell them to get out of debt. They're also not going to trust us when we tell them, hey, this is going to affect your marriage. The advice we give is no longer trustworthy if the endorsement is not trustworthy. So the whole stinking thing ends up revolving around this word. And so we spend a lot of time discussing and vetting and cheeseclothing. The whole. It's a mess. But, yeah, it's. It's okay. It's worth the effort.

I agree. I'm with you on that. And I mean, I think that, you know, at acquisition.com, we tried to do the same kind of approach, which is like, how can we be as trustworthy as humanly possible? Because, you know, we do equity deals. And so, yeah, we have a huge vetting process. And, you know, 99.999% of the audience I have will never do business with me, but I still need to treat everyone so that the reputation which compounds is based on trust so that we can do deals over the long term.

And just to be very transparent, it. It's emotional for me and most people in this building when that doesn't go right. Yeah, when we mess that up somehow, because we. Our intent is to never mess that up. And when it gets messed up, it hurts our feelings more than it does.

Anybody's mentor mind gave me this quote. You might like it. He said, never risk the empire for a pot of gold.

There it is. That's a great one. I love it.

So speaking of pots of gold, so 300 million is where you're at right now. What do you see as the next thing to get, you know, Ramsey Solutions to 600 million? Like you were saying earlier, like, what's the. What's the path forward there? Like, what do you see as the strategic opportunity? What are you investing in right now?

Well, we're seeing an explosion with our Every Dollar app, for one thing. It's. It with minimal effort, honestly, has Caught fire. So we're gonna pour a little more gas on that while we're at it. We're gonna put some effort into it since it's working. And and we do think that Financial Peace University is going to stair step again. We've got to finish. We've got to find that methodology for delivering those age old principles in a new. In a new way. We are platform and delivery agnostic. I don't care how we get it to you but we got to get it to you. And it's not efficiently with the least friction possible. So people actually do the stuff and so that's there. Some things are going are logistically have in the last say 20 of the 30 years have they didn't shrink. They grew but they don't have the logistical ability to grow revenue wise as much. An example that'd be live events. There's only so much of that you can do. It doesn't hockey stick because you. You have a bottleneck actual bodies on a stage and bodies to set the stage up and that kind of stuff and number of cities you can actually draw a crowd in and that kind of thing. So the only way you could hockey stick that thing would be to run the prices where they were just not for the average guy. And our whole thing we do is for the average guy. So that's gonna if it stays the same or grows at 5% and something else grew at 50% it's gonna get to be a smaller and smaller piece of the pie mathematically but not still not be something we're ashamed of. We love live events and I'm we're one of the biggest event companies in America. We do a great live events but. But it's gonna end up that one's not probably going to be the answer unless now streaming could it would have to monetize for the first time. But they suck on monetization but. But it's good at getting information out there. So I we don't see hardcover books as being something that's going to hockey stick in the coming years but I do think they're going to continue to be a valid part of the mix. So it's probably more digital application and delivery because it's the easiest to scale and lowest cost of goods and it more easily iterates than anything analog. And the rate of change has exponentially increased in 30 years. What used to take us five years to see unfold in the marketplace is unfolding in five or ten weeks right now. And how fast entire social media platforms Become irrelevant is kind of amazing. And so betting the whole thing on one delivery mechanism. Woo. Dumb. And so in my mind anyway. But yeah. So I think whatever it is, it's gonna like an app, like a budgeting app or a delivery digitally of FPU or delivery digitally of our entree leadership, which is our small business teaching and coaching. You only have so many physical coaches for small business guys and that's got a limiting factor. Do I want 3,000 of those people in a building? No, I really don't. I'd a lot rather figure out another way to help you folk out there that is not as manpower hungry.

So when you said the EveryDollar app just kind of like took off, is that like a micro example of how product iteration works for you is like, let's throw something together, let's see how it works. And then if it starts taking off disproportionately to like the effort, you say, okay, now we're going to invest more resources in it.

Yeah, we put a huge amount of effort into building it and launching the initial. Yeah, it was a major initiative and a push and, and then it kind of, you know, it had a good growth rate, but it really wasn't. But something shifted in the marketplace. I mean, literally in the last four or five months. And the way the consumer is viscerally responding to the word budget differently than they were certainly 10 years ago, but probably even 10 months ago. And so when we develop things. So we're going to, you know, we've always iterated it, we've always updated it, we've always made it better every time and all that kind of stuff. But there just seems to be some attention that we didn't cause. So why not join the parade?

Yeah, right. I think probably some of that's. The macroeconomic environment has changed a little bit in that period of time. People are probably feeling the need for a budget.

And it might be that, I mean, I think the product, the original launch on it was. It's probably coming up on 10 years, you know, so. Okay. And the, you know, the, the number of people that are walking around, adults that have never lived in a world that wasn't a smartphone world is much larger than it was 10 years ago.

Yeah.

And so the marketplace has shifted in that regard. The iPhone, the whatever, whatever. Smartphone is native to a much larger percentage of population than it was when it was launched. So we may just be seeing that demographic shift. And then they're aging into it. Yeah. Because they, you know, that age group, I mean, if you're 28. You. You wouldn't ever think of doing a budget on paper.

Right.

It would not occur to you that that could no more than you would hand write a letter in cursive. You know, I mean, it's just absurd. So. But you know, when I started all this, that wasn't. Neither one of those was that unusual.

Right. So speaking of the app in particular, as an increasingly large part of the pie, how does it measure compared to the other pieces? Just by percentage. You've got the events, you've got the education, you've got entre leadership, you've got the app, you've got the live events. How do those divide up in terms of size for Ramsey Solutions?

The Ramsey Trusted items, which includes national advertisers and the whole Smart Vista pros, all the endorse, all the people we endorse for investing, all the real estate agents, although there's about 8,000, 9,000 different people that we endorse in different areas. Tax, really all that tax and real estate and investing through Ramsey Trusted. And then you've got a singular national advertiser like a Churchill Mortgage for mortgages. All that falls under Ramsey Trusted. So that's a lot under there. But the national associations, plus the strategic alliances, we call them, what used to be called the ELP program, probably amounts to 40% of the revenue.

Really.

And so not let, not putting on, back to our earlier conversation, not putting on one that's bad is a big deal there because you're going to mess up the whole thing. You're going to mess up the empire with the, that singular bad pot of gold. And so we have to, you know, to be a real estate agent. And Ramsey Trusted, you really are. We're really going to do the stuff we tell you to do or we're really not gonna let you in there. I mean, it's a big deal, you know. And so because we love you and we love our customers and we want everybody to have a little love fest, we don't need anybody pissed off. So you really gonna do this stuff? So that's probably, I think it's probably sitting at about 40% of the revs right now, but. But that's half that gum building too. In terms of the 1100 people that work here, entree leadership is probably 15%. You know, something like that. Financial Peace university is probably 15%. You know, every dollar is 10% maybe or less. It's less than 10%, but they just kind of fall out like that. Publishing and live events together, not that huge Revenue. But again, they're almost.

They're like middle almost.

Yeah, they're almost lead gathering things. So I'm trying to think what else falling in that P and L. But there's something like that.

Those are the big ones.

That's big rocks.

How do you think about reallocating or reinvesting capital within the business versus taking it out of the business as an owner?

Well, we, we don't randomly. If we have something we can. I can get more ROI here on something that we have a high belief in than I could anywhere else. I mean, certainly on mutual funds of real estate. I mean, I love mutual funds of real estate, but I mean, I can get a thousand percent ROI on launching a product. Yeah. And I can't even approach that on this other stuff. So I would rather deploy the capital here, but I don't need to deploy it stupidly. So when in doubt, we take it home.

When in doubt, take it out.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. And plug it into the, you know, plug it into generosity and plug it into some more real estate or mutual funds.

So I'm gonna. I'm pivot a little bit on the, on the investing side because I wanted to give you something that you might not know, but you did a podcast with Graham Stephan and he was always fun.

He's a great guy.

Yeah, Graham's. Graham's a nice guy.

He's done. He's done a great job too, on his stuff, man.

Yeah, he's followed in your footsteps in.

A lot of ways. Well, he's. He's different, but I mean, he's doing. He's good. He's. We like him.

Yeah. Graham's a good dude. And he showed you his investment portfolio.

Oh, yeah. That's like a thing he does when he has people on. I'm like, I don't know, Graham. I don't know if I'm qualified to help you with that.

Yeah, you said something to him that massively changed the direction of how we invested. Just so you know. Yeah. So I just wanted to share that with you. So I think you had said loosely. Well, before I look at this, if this were your brain or your knowledge or your experiences, what percentage of this pie would you say is real estate versus stocks versus anything else? He said, well, because he had asked you, do you think I'm over indexed on real estate? But when you asked him the question, he said, well, I mean, I guess probably 85% of my knowledge is around real estate. And I think his portfolio kind of reflected that. You Were like, well, then that's a perfect mix for you and for me. As we were coming out of the. Of our liquidity event, we'd probably taken about 40 million home before that.

Wow. Good for you. That's awesome.

It's not 300.

It was 300 is gross, dude.

I know.

You know, the difference in gross and that.

But anyways. And so I had. During. While I was growing the business, I basically just didn't really invest at all. I mean, I just put it in indexes and was like, I'll deal with it later. And then we had the liquidity event, and I talked to probably every guy that I know was. Who was richer than me and was like, what should I do with all this? And the answers that I got were as different as there are people under the sun.

Yep.

Which left me more confused than anything. And so the reason that that little piece of advice that you gave to Graham was so meaningful for me was that it was personalized because everybody told me what they did and what had worked for them. But, you know, one of the guys I asked was like, oh, take all that and buy one huge building. And I was like, I don't know anything about. I was like, I really. I don't want to risk everything on one building. He's like, well, I've been doing this 30 years. Like, that's what you should do. It's like, I'm gonna mess this up.

That scares the crap out of me. Yeah.

Yeah. I have no tenants and termites and toilets and all that, so I have no idea how any of that stuff works.

Right.

And so when I thought back on, When I looked at that pie and thought, okay, well, what's my knowledge base? It was like, it's all business. Everything I've done has been business, and all the money I've made has been business. And so I showed that clip to Layla, my wife, and I was like, I think. I think this is what we should do. I think we should just stick to business and just buy businesses and grow them.

And so I love it.

That's what we did with acquisition.com is.

That we're like, good for you. That's great. Wow.

But that little piece of advice changed the direction of how. I mean, how we allocate all of our assets and what we do. Because it's funny, because if I was going to write a $5 million check into a building, I got, like, you know, three or four deals that were around that size in terms of check size, and I'd get all the way to the end. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm just trusting that this is a good deal. Like I had the Excel sheet and the, you know, projector returns, all this stuff. And I was like, I don't feel good about this because I don't know when on the flip side, if I'm going to write a $5 million check into a business, I feel fine about it because I'm like, oh, I know how. Like I know I've. I don't know everything.

Obviously, it's your. It's your sandbox, right? Yeah.

And so anyway, that's beautiful.

I love that. That's what, what happened was we had a product that we called Wealth Coach for a little while and we ended up doing these very small, but I don't know, we charged more than we ever charged, like a thousand bucks or something. We always charge 20 bucks so to come to this little seminars. And we ended up talking to these people that were millionaires or 5 million or 10 million. And I kept asking them, okay, what do you put money into? Because they've actually done it. They had money. Like you've actually done it. You have money. And so it's not someone with a theory on TikTok, you know. And so what I kept hearing from them was this array of all kinds of different things. So I couldn't. It wasn't the answer to the question wasn't a certain investment made them rich. What it was was they put money and stuff they knew. Yeah. And I mean, one guy was a car dealer and he had a massive classic car collection, which for an ego driven person is a horrible idea.

Right.

But because, because you can lose your butt in any kind of collectible.

Yeah.

But for somebody that is in the car business and his, his grandfather had a dealership and he, his father had a dealership and he had a. He. He knows that, loves it.

Yeah.

He goes out in the garage and pets the cars. I mean, you know, say, guess what? He's making that portfolio. So seriously, gave him a great return. Now, do I recommend to the general public, go get a car? No. No. Put money in stuff, you understand and you love. And don't put money in stuff because it sounds fancy or somebody, you know, it sounds sophisticated. Because there's something that happens when you get money. You think that everybody that has money is sophisticated about their investing. And what I figured out is almost no one is. Yeah, they're very primitive. I mean, a lot of people I talked to Were farmers. And you know what? They bought lots of land. They got dirt, man. That's it. Just dirt. And it doesn't even. I mean, they don't even necessarily plant it, but they just buy dirt. And one guy, 8,000 acres of dirt, you know, And I'm like, in Kansas, you know, I'm like, golly, I wouldn't need more good. I don't know anything about that kind of dirt. I like real estate, but that would scare me to death. Yeah, but for him, it was the most comfortable, natural thing in the world, to your point. And so I just learned that put money and stuff you love and you understand, don't put money in stuff because it sounds sophisticated, because you're getting ready to lose your butt because you're trusting some guy who doesn't have any money who's trying to sell you something and driving a bad car. And so, yeah, name the bad car. But anyways, I mean, that's where that came from. Was just anecdotally hanging out with those folks and researching it. And it gave me peace because I was starting to make bank for the first time. And I'm like, I need to be like, doing double backflip limited family partnerships or some kind of crap. I don't even know what they are, but I probably ought to be doing one if I'm making this kind of money. And. And then. And you talk to a guy and he's like, yeah, you ought to do a double backflip with a twist. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, but get right up to it. And I'm going, you know, I don't half understand. No, I think I'd rather just bury it in the backyard than that, because at least I know where it is.

You know, it's funny, though, because even with the dirt example, there was a guy who his entire investment strategy explained in an interview. He's like, you guys are going to be bored about what we're going to do for the next 55 minutes, because I can explain it in five. And we're like. And I'm listening. I'm like, okay, here. You know, here's it. He's like, okay, so what I do is I find a city and I find the main street, because usually there's a main street that goes through the middle of the state. It's the oldest street, whatever. It's like. And then I take a ruler and I go out 30 miles. He's like, and then I buy all that land. He's like, and then I wait 20 years.

I love this guy.

And what are the big.

Any questions?

He's like, so what do you want to do with the rest of our time together? They're like, so how do you hedge? He's like, oh, buy it in cash. Because you can't, you know, can't take loans on land. And yeah, that's what I do. And we've been doing that for many, many, many, many years.

I had dinner with a guy the other night that had $2 billion net worth. And he's second gen, but his dad was dirt doing dirt, not unlike what your friend was doing. And then he couldn't get the bank to do the deal. He was borrowing money to do the dirt. And so he bought the bank. It was a little hometown bank and they screwed with him and so he bought it and he's like, okay, now they'll behave. And then he started making money on the bank and got in and got to figure out how banking. And now they own like 15 or 20,000 acres, three wineries around the world and a whole bunch of banks, bunch of community banks and they, and they're billionaire, multi billionaires. And so. Yeah, but it started from that. And they don't really do anything else. The wineries are more of a fun project. I think they know what they're doing with those. Probably the way he was talking, he knew wine and the. But the, but he knows banks, he knows dirt, and that's where all their money is. Yeah. And they're not diversified for having as much billions with an S. You know, I mean, it's interesting. Those kinds of people are enthralling to me.

And it's interesting because most of the billionaires that I have looked at, they usually make their money in one or two vehicles that they know exceedingly well where they feel like they have an unfair advantage. And like they, they, they get there not because there's a marketplace advantage, but because they have an information advantage. They know it better.

Exactly, exactly. And if you go through the Forbes 400, I think it's 67%, last time I looked, are first gen. They're all billionaires now. You don't qualify if you don't have a B. And they're first gen. And I think I looked at them of the first gens, it was 90 something percent were business driven. So it was Michael Dell, you know, Bill Gates, Hobby Lobby, David Green, Chick Fil A true or Cathy, you know. And so they started a business and it led to either they took it public or they just monetized the Crud out of it. And it just has a value marketplace valuation, Oprah. But, you know, the secret of Oprah's wealth is not her celebrity status, it's the empire she built under the celebrity status. And so, you know, you go down those things like that and you go, okay, you can get to 1 to $5 million net worth with your 401k and your paid off home. But, you know, mathematically impossible to get to a billion in your 401k. It's not possible to do it. So you got to do. There's other strategies to be involved if you're going to do that.

So I wanted to take a quick second because it'd be hard for me to talk to Dave Ramsey without talking about debt and a lot of people. So in my audience, I'm kind of debt agnostic. I don't talk much about it, but a lot of people don't know that I actually have no debt either. And so everything I've bought to this point in my life has been cash. Now, I'm not against debt. I just kind of talk about, you know, when I get right at the edge of something, I just, I end up not doing it. It's been that way with most kind of loan things in general. And I read financial or total money makeover years ago and you had this line in there about debt that was. I'm going to try and say it back to you as I understood it because there's obviously the biblical component. But for everyone who might not believe in that, I wanted to give at least my rational understanding of how you see it, which is that debt introduces risk, and risk when compounded over a long enough time horizon. No matter how big a number you acquire, any number multiplied by zero is still zero. And so if you know that you're going to be playing this game for a very long time, even a small amount of risk when you're going 200 miles an hour can flip the car. That was my understanding of how you saw debt. Is that accurate? That's how I saw it. Or at least I interpreted your view on debt.

Now, that line is actually from Warren Buffett in one of his famous annual reports. They're very cheeky and fun to read, especially the opening paragraphs or so in one of those, he was talking about down year like 08. We soon discover that leverage is not always your friend. Those of us that could do math realize that any number multiplied by zero is going to equal zero. And that does that for you. So, yeah, it's again, Having grown up in the real estate business, one thing you're going to do in the real estate business, when I was growing up, if you said, I'm going to be a real estate investor, they took you to the hospital, they took out your risk meter and they broke it with a hammer and they put it back in. You're not allowed to perceive risk if you're going to be a real estate guy because it's glass half full. We're eternal optimists. Everything's going to work out because real estate's always awesome. It's just awesomeness on parade. You can't mess this up. The renters will pay your rent or pay your mortgage. How can you mess this up? And you know, so if a little bit of leverage is good, then a lot of leverage is amazing. And that's how I went bro broke. I leveraged up to my eyeballs, had a bunch of short term notes and the bank did the unthinkable and called my notes when they got sold to another bank and they saw a 26 year old kid owed him a million two on 90 day notes doing flips. This was before Chip and Joanna told us how to do it. And so do a flip. Oh my God. We didn't have HG to channel to tell us how to fix up a house without cable tv. I did this stuff and so, so that's where it came from. And then what happened to me because I lost everything following the borrow all you can because it works plan, I had to stop and go. I think I've got a bad set of rules. The playbook I've got sucks. I keep losing and my kids are getting skinny. I mean, this is not working. So when I did that, the first, as you said, the first door I went through was I had just become a Christian. And so I started studying the Bible. And so as a matter of faith, I started reading scriptures. And all the scriptures say negative things about debt. It doesn't say it's a sin, doesn't say you're going to hell. But it's stuff like the borrower slave to the lender. You're a fool if you cosign. I mean it says these things in scripture and then you talk to old rich people and they go, well, you stay out of debt, boy, you know, and okay, that's kind of grandma God's and grandma's ways of doing it. So what did I miss in academia when I fell in love with leverage? From an academic viewpoint? Because how is it? It's incongruent to me that if this book of wisdom and these people that are long in the tooth with gray hair, that have proof, social proof, they've got money and they kept it, are all saying, avoid debt. What is it that we're missing in academic land with my intellect? So spiritual, social proof, now I got to solve it intellectually. And what I ended up doing, I ended up speaking at Vanderbilt to a group of MBAs early in my career. And it forced me to because I knew I was going to go in there and get tackled, right, because they're going to go, you're primitive, moron. You believe the Bible. You know, you don't know anything and you don't know how to do math. And I know, I know how to do math. As a matter of fact, it's about all I know how to do. I'm a math guy. So what I figured out was, was that in business debt or real estate debt. Business is not publicly traded. No one includes all the math. They leave out a risk factor associated with debt mathematically. And so we look at a very inaccurate and primitive measure of leverage. And so if I can borrow this money at 2% and I can invest it at 8, why am I not making 6? Well, A, you left out inflation, B, you left out taxes, but aside from that, and that's pretty basic because this is the argument, the argument is that primitive, but you did not adjust for the risk you took on. Because I think we can all agree if you have a business that's doing $10 million top line and you've got $12 million in debt, you have a lot more risk than if you had $2 million in debt. And even $2 million is more risk than if you had zero debt. We can agree that debt is equal to risk. And if we can agree to that, then we ought to be able to assign, if we're going to really get down in the analytical jungle, we can assign a mathematical formula to that. Well, ta da. There is one. It already exists. We just never applied it in that in the investment world they teach us to adjust. You don't compare an aggressive growth stock mutual fund that has a high peaks and valleys on the graph volatile with a growth and income fund, which has almost no peaks and valleys. So a growth and income fund may have a beta of a 0.8, meaning it is only 80% as risky as the S and P when you're comparing it to an aggressive growth stock mutual fund that might have a 2.0, meaning it's twice as volatile risky and so in that world, we're taught, I mean, one of the first things you learn doing financial analysis in that world is you use the beta as an inverse in the math and you flip it on its head and you multiply it through and you adjust for risk mathematically so that you can then say after you adjust for the volatility, the 0.8 versus the 2.0 versus the S&P is a 1.0, it's your baseline. When you adjust for that risk, the perceived return of the aggressive growth stock mutual fund at 20% rate of return, where the other one's making 11.2, it goes away, it neutralizes it, and you might end up with risk adjusted. That 11.2 will come up and the 20% will come down risk adjusted. And then you can actually compare apples to apples, but you've risk adjusted for the volatility. And mathematically we don't do that in business. We just go, I won't buy bulldozer. Let's go get 50,000 at the bank. And I think I can do it. I think we can push some dirt. And that is your risk analysis. Well, kiss my butt. That is dumb, okay? And people do that all the time. And so what I determined was, is that I'm going to go. If you want to compare two dry cleaners, one has debt, one doesn't, I've got to risk adjust for that mathematically. And you have to apply a beta formula to that. I presented that to this group of MBAs, and they're all sitting there with their jaws on their lap going, no one ever said that. And I said it's because it's never been said. No one. No one does it in the world. No one. No. You're not trained this way, you're trained that way in only one bucket of finance. All the other buckets of finance, zero. Real estate people do this. Zero. None. They do not analyze risk. And so if you take risk out, then unlimited leverage is logical. But if you say unlimited leverage, they go, oh, not quite. Maybe 80%, maybe a 70%, maybe a LTV. Right. And you know, but if you push them up to the edge, they can actually feel it a little bit because there's remnant of a risk meter in there, but it just doesn't function anymore. That's where that came from.

Oh, I love it.

Probably more than you wanted, but yeah.

No, no, I wanted to kind of hear your take on it because obviously in the business acquisition world, there's also debt that's factored in. Now we've done all cash deals up to this point, but I wanted to just kind of hear your take on it. And I quote Warren Buffett a lot. He's a big.

But even though, even in the publicly traded realm we were taught, and still taught, bonds are debt. And so if you're looking at a company with publicly traded stock, it has a heavy bond weight, you discount the pde. You don't compare that stock apples to apples where the company has no bond rate, zero bonds, they have zero debt, they don't have bank debt, they don't have short term debt, they're sitting over there debt free. You would give them some benefit on their stock analysis. Mathematically we're taught to do that. But again it does not transfer from the mutual fund world or the publicly traded world to the real estate world or the small business world. Small business, privately held business don't even, I mean I know people that do, you know, have billion dollar top line and honestly they don't even look at. They just, some of them, a lot of them just don't borrow money. They don't even know why they don't borrow money. They just don't borrow money because somebody told them to one time and they go, I like not being in debt. I can sleep better. And that's their entire analysis. You know me, I've got analysis. And I can do the country boy thing too and say I just sleep better. Bring on a pandemic. I got cash.

Yeah, I'll bring us home. Because I had a. And I could talk to you all day and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and the audience at the Gambler.

I've been an honor. It's fun, fun conversation.

If you had advice that you could, and I'll keep it specific to business advice that you could give 40 year old Dave, what would you tell him then that you know now that you didn't know then?

Play incremental long ball. Don't look for the home run. I keep waiting for somebody to call me and for this to get easy. One phone call and it's all over. And it's like, oh, now I don't have to think about anymore. Someone else is going to do it for me. It's all automatic. It's never going to be automatic. It's never going to be easy. It's, it's a hustle and grind. It's a claw. You're going to make a bazillion mistakes, make mistakes that are experiments that you survive. You put out a hypothesis you survive the experiment to live another day, to have another experiment put out another hypothesis, another product that fails, another idea that fails. And our failures at Ramsey are in number and in money are way greater than our successes. The only thing is we survived them A we didn't have debt. And baby, we never bet the farm on one horse. And so from a diversification standpoint, we never pushed all the chips to the middle of the table on one hand. And so we're not looking for the singular home run. We're looking to survive and fight another day and keep iterating. And the culmination of that, the accumulated value of those iterations are what we call the gleaming mountain of success, which turns out as a pile of garbage and mistakes that you're just standing on rather than laying under it.

I love that one of the things that we have in our community is 100 gold, 100 golden BBs, no silver bullets.

There you go. That's one. That's exactly. You know, you beat me. That's much better than mine. I would have just gone with that. You know, it's the same thing. I keep waiting on the phone call, but I mean, it's never. I've had a couple of my thought was it. And then I was found out. They were just people and they weren't magic.

What's funny, because I joke with our community, because a lot of my community is small business owners. Probably from $100,000 a year to $100 million a year is probably the broad brushstroke of the people who are listening to this. And the biggest thing a lot of them suffer from is shiny object syndrome, is that as soon as something starts to get hard, something new looks easy. And so they jump from the hard thing to the easy thing. And really, it's just uninformed optimism. And then they get into it and then they have informed pessimism.

That's beaut. That's beautiful. Yeah. I mean, by the time it shines, you're late, you're late. It's too late. I mean, if you think TikTok is new, you're late. Yeah, it's already not new. It may have already turned down. And while we were talking right now.

I mean, if we have a second, let me know. In terms of how. Because you've survived. Survived a strong word, you've thrived. Platform agnostic. You know, you have. You. I mean, you were in radio, you've done live stuff. But then I see YouTube clips of your show pumping out every day. You guys Crush it on YouTube. And you do it kind of your way. How have you thought about navigating platforms as they come and go and how you kind of like reinvest in. Where. Where are we going to make a bet and say, okay, we're going to start expending resources here, or is it just, if there's attention, we'll go there? Like, how do you think through that?

We try to go there and then we expend resources based on results. And so the YouTube shorts that we've been pumping out is only about a year and a half old and we're getting incredible results, but we're getting results on those. As an example, we don't view those as life transformation items, okay. We view them as lead magnets to lead you to the long form show, to Financial Peace University, to a book, which are life transformation items. So they're free advertisements that cause people to get a little sample. You get a little old lady standing in Costco with a sample biscuit, right? And so get a little sample and get a little sample biscuit, and then you may go buy the whole thing in the freezer. But so we, I would not do. In other words, our philosophy on changing lives is why we're here. We would not only do YouTube shorts because they don't change lives. Okay? We would not only do the new long form, TikTok, six minutes, seven minutes. We would not only do that because it won't change a life. And so it's got to lead us somewhere. And based on its response on doing that or just general activity around whatever the item is, whether it's a long form or short form, is we're gonna, we're gonna pour gas on where we're seeing stuff work. And, you know, so we don't, you know, for the last two years, we put little to no effort in growing Twitter. Tucker Carlson might change that. It may become a broadcast medium. And so we'll probably be on Twitter next week. Well, Elon's definitely pushing Elon and he's going to. But I mean, if it's not going to just be a cauldron for trolls, then. And it's actually going to put out some positive information in a way that is consumable and could grow. And if Elon proves that with Tucker, I mean, we'll jump in there and try it right now. And all that is we're not going to put a ton of money on it or resources or bandwidth on it. But we're. This week we were discussing. We're probably going to try It. And what Tucker's doing and what Elon's doing with Tucker and with that whole idea of broadcasting there. Because Facebook Live is. Didn't work. Yeah, it's not working. No, not from our perspective anyway. But we're still there. We're not. We didn't abandon it, but we're not putting effort on where YouTube shorts. Yeah, we got a lot of people in this building working on that every day. Yeah.

You guys crank those?

Yeah, they do. They put out a bunch of them.

When you think about content for you, are you. Because you're recording 12 hours a week. Correct. Four days. Three hours a day. Oh, 15 hour.

Okay, well, accounting. Commercials. Yeah, we do. We do three hour talk radio show.

Every day is the entirety of your kind of content creation. And then the teams take all of that and disseminate it through all the channels.

I do a podcast that I just took over that's caller driven on leadership and small business called Entree. Leadership took that over in January. That and the Ramsey show are the only two things I'm on. But Ramsey Network has about 10 shows that are YouTube and. Or radio and. Or. I mean, we put them on everything, but I mean, the Ken Coleman shows, the only ones on talk radio, 75 stations plus podcast, plus YouTube. Deloney John. Dr. John Deloney has a huge show on podcast and YouTube. Only the Rachel Cruz with George Camel, the Smart Money Happy Hours. But we sawdust every one of those. Every one of those.

Can you say sawdust?

We're gonna take pieces and clips and do all kinds of things with them. Instead of. We don't go create. Well, I say very seldom do we go create a YouTube short of anyone in the building or anything in the building. It is clipped from something we were already doing, so it's repurposed content that was already developed for something else. You know, highly edited.

Yeah, I. I mean, because I've. I've observed what you're doing and thinking like, how can. How can we do even more of that kind of stuff?

Lots of payroll.

Yeah. Our media is. All right. Well, this has been phenomenal. And I'm honestly just so grateful that they had me and my team out here to. Is this considered Ramsey Studios? Is that what this would.

Yeah, we'll call it that. Ramsey Solutions Studios. Yeah.

And just also so grateful for that one tiny tidbit that.

Wow, I'm honored I had a tiny bit to do with all that. You do, man. You're amazing. I'm proud of you. Well done.

Means a lot. I appreciate it. Well, thanks so much for having coming on the game.

Thank you, brother.

Hopefully something in the future.

Absolutely. You can count on it.