Business Expert: The Secret Power of IP To Grow Your Business

This changes everything. I don't think the creator community knows about this yet.

Mo Bunnell spent 20 years turning his expertise into IP that other people can learn, deliver, and certify in. Companies now pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for that IP.

There's 4 things people need. Number 1, for every page or significant part of content, you want a cool name for it. The second thing we need are steps. The third thing is science. And then the last thing are—

Oh, interesting. In this episode, he gives us a masterclass on how to do exactly what he's done. He walks through the materials from the simple things he started with all the way up to what he brings in to multi-billion-dollar consulting companies today.

It's gifts all the way through. The book is a gift. The downloads are gifts. The call is going to be a gift. Actually, can I give the other secret? Yeah. Okay. Here's the other secret that nobody does that's really important is Mo told me at the end that this isn't something he normally breaks down publicly.

So take advantage of it.

If you want to scale IP, you want to have a— It's freaking awesome.

I like it. Mo, I think of you as the best in the world. You've got this insane client list at corporate development, training, all of these things. And you— the IP that you have and the way that you've used that to grow your business is incredible. But I want to go back to when did that start? When was the time that you said, oh, I need to go from the training that I'm doing and I need to actually codify this into something that has real intellectual property?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's— it's a funny story because I had grown up at a consulting firm and left as a senior partner and been used to selling big things and growing the business and left it as one of our most senior business developers out of about, I don't know, 20,000 people or something and started my own firm and was mostly doing like one-on-one coaching and things like that. I had a lot of stuff in my head. I knew how to do it. And mostly people through my own network were hiring me. It was great. And like it was paying the bills and it was fine. It wasn't scaling. I didn't know how to scale. And one One Friday I got a call and it was from a CEO of a professional service firm, consulting firm that we'd been working with. And he said, hey, we've really enjoyed you coaching our partners. You know, you've coached like 6 or 7 or whatever. We're having a meeting with all of our partners and we'd love you to bring your material. Like, you're mostly just teaching people things, whatever they need, right? But is there a way you could codify your whole system and teach it to all of our partners? And I like, Nathan, I had like this spark of like, that's a really good idea.

Like I do that.

Why didn't I think of that? That's a really good. And I was like, okay, yeah, Brad, I'd love to do that. When's the meeting? And he said, Tuesday. And I like, I thought the answer would be like month, day, time. Right.

And it was like, we got our quarterly offsite coming up in Q3.

Exactly. No, and it was more like Memorial Day or Labor Day weekend is one of the two 3-day weekends. And it's Friday at, I don't know, 11 a.m. We've got, we've got family coming in town because it's a 3-day weekend. But I felt like this is so important, right? Like, this is the next stage of the business that I somehow just fell into. Like, literally, they're ready to pay me for it. I can use the money because we're still getting— we're still like, man, it was, uh, it was lean. And, uh, so I just, I just every day I'd work for like 8 hours that weekend and play, drink beer, and play euchre at night with our family who came from Indiana. And at the end of that, at the end of that weekend, I had some materials.

Effectively Selling Professional Services.

Yeah.

And I mean, this was the first one. This is what you made over the weekend.

This came out of my head and I designed it in Pages with some kind of template I found online in a weekend. And the hardest part was convincing the print shop not to do their normal 2-day proof.

Right.

Like, I'm like, no, no, I'm going to drive down there tomorrow. I'll stand at the printer. I'll make it easy for you. You'll open the doors. It'll be great on a Sunday. But anyway, we got this done and this, this was sort of the beginnings of intellectual property.

So what did you notice the difference from before having your IP codified? Yeah. To after of like first with that, that Tuesday morning meeting that you went into. Yeah. But then each of your clients from then on, it was totally different.

I think any great expert can stand in front of some PowerPoint slides and probably do a pretty good job. The problem with that is it positions the expert as the lead, the expert as the thing. It's in their head, right? And even, even PowerPoint, sort of, there's just so much bad PowerPoint and bad training. And like, you're in a, you're in a morass already. When you make IP the paramount thing, now you can scale indefinitely. You can potentially, you can certify others, you can sell large corporate contracts, you can develop even better IP that we can get into. To. But it's, um, it's a, it's a transformation because now you can start charging by the person, by the day, by the event, by the impact. Whereas if you're just a human, you're almost thrown back into, you know, if you think of your ladders of wealth, you're almost thrown back a couple ladders if you don't have IP as the paramount thing.

Yeah. So I feel like there's so many listeners to the show who maybe are at half a million a year in revenue, and they have something that they're trusted to teach, and, and they're making a big impact on, you know, the clients they're coaching or the, you know, the services they're providing, but it's not scaling, you know. Or maybe they're getting to a million, but they're not breaking through that. What are the things that you would say to them of like, okay, here's, here's what you need to do. Yeah. To actually have this scale.

Yeah. Well, let's— let— we could even put this in your Ladders of Wealth framework. Yeah. Um, because I think that they just go together so well. I think if somebody really wants to make an impact on the world, and that means there's an altruistic nature of just having an impact and helping people transform and become better, but also having an economic impact on yourself, being able to scale and make a lot of money so that, you know, the Walt Disney quote, "We don't make movies to make money, we make money to make more movies." Yes. That creates scale. So what somebody can do is they don't have to do it right away, but step 1 would be to codify your materials in a way that you think starts to get to where there's a system here versus something in someone's head.

So let's dig in on that for a second because I think there's a lot of people who know something intuitively.

Yeah.

And they might have a story around it from their own personal side, all of these different things. And then they've said it over and over again, don't have a framework or a diagram around it. I actually had this experience. I was talking to Dan Martell's like private mastermind. So we had maybe like 15 to 20 software leaders. These are all people who have built businesses at least $5 to $10 million a year in revenue and some way bigger than that. And this was their offsite. And I came and I taught a bunch of things. And Dan at one point goes, I gotta stop you right there. And he jumps up and he then goes to the board and diagrams what I just said, puts it in a triangle, labels it, you know, all of this. And he's like, keep going. It was just perfect. You just needed to be able to see it. A framework to go with that. And I was like, oh, you know, it was unlocked for me of like, wait, what are these things I'm saying over and over again, but I'm not codifying? I don't have, I couldn't sketch it out. I couldn't articulate it cleanly. And so I went back through my work and really mapped out, okay, here's, you know, the lottery's wealth is one of them. You know, here's these other ones where I'm getting it down to a very specific framework. I think about Ramit Sethi, In his material, he would talk about something he calls the briefcase technique, which is really just his way of saying, hey, there's a pre— like, I have a pre-prepared plan for you as a potential client that I can reach into my briefcase and get out and pull it out, right? You know, and it has like this level of credibility with it. Not really that novel of an idea, but he branded it really well and now people will remember it. And so how do you go about creating those frameworks that you can actually teach where you're like, look, all these important lessons I now have Yep. An ownable framework.

Let's actually skip to the end of the road and show you what the materials look like now. And then I'll break down the things that are within it.

I like that.

That'll answer your question. But I think you almost need to see it. So if that first version was me in Pages on a Mac over the weekend, like design, I'm not a designer, but I picked up—

Printed at FedEx Office or something like that.

Yeah. So like that's level 1. Then what, what, how you get to great, that, that was good, but how you get to great is you probably want to either become an expert yourself or hire out a great instructional designer. Adult learning techniques. How do you want to get to the activity quickly? You want to just train just enough. You want to be anti-lecture just enough that they can get to an activity. They're working on activity for 20, 20 minutes, and then the participants are the heroes sharing what they learned. You want max— you want 60+ percent of time with the participants in activities. Okay. So that's like one element. As we moved through, when you have a graphic instructional designer, then you can hire a graphic designer. Yeah. And so this was sort of level 2. This was about— I think I spent $50,000 or $60,000 in graphic design alone, maybe about the same in instructional design. This is a long time ago, but we call this the Trapper Keeper era. Nathan Barry, there was a little snap to the book, but you can start to see, you know, this is again, this is like 15 years ago. But you can start to see a little bit different experience that the participant's going to get here than they got in something you designed your own.

Right.

I was already ahead of it looks like a crappy Word document. I was a click ahead of that. But you do something like this and it's a whole nother level. Instructional design, graphic design. Now, there was probably a $100,000 or $120,000 investment on my end to get it to here. Now, skip forward another 10 years and I'm skipping like 7 iterations. Now, when somebody goes through our program, The materials are like, literally just feel that.

You've got some— it feels expensive. We've got the different modules. Okay, so modules 1 through 12 and then 17, right?

Exactly. And so what happens here is somebody— I was just in South Africa teaching one of the tier 1 management consulting firms last week. And what happens when you get this is now you're not thinking, uh, PowerPoint, right? That's the lowest level. That feels anybody can slow it, throw it together. How many crappy trainings have we gone through where PowerPoint was the key? Also, research shows that, um, uh, when we handwrite things, we remember it more. Okay, so I actually want paper so that people—

do you have worksheet stuff in here? Yeah, filling it out.

Yeah. So if we, if we were open this up and, and we were zoom in, everything with an orange box is—

oh, you're real, you're scoring things, you're—

oh yeah, yeah, I'm looking at this, filling things out for the camera, right? Exactly. All these details. Exactly. So A, I want heft. B, because that signifies value. B, I want beauty. Yeah. And we've now— we've got this just locked in graphic design capability that's just incredible. We want— see, we want instructional design. So even though the orange boxes are not the— they're not the, the bulk of the pages, they're the bulk of the time. Yeah, they're bulk of the time in the class. So all those things now that— so now that we've seen that, to answer your question, there's 4 things people will need. I like it. Number 1, for every page or significant part of content, you want a cool name for it. Okay. So we don't call a high priority relationship list a relationship list. We call it a protomoi list. Protomoi is a Greek word. It means first among equals. What's interesting about a word you can own— the briefcase technique or The Pro to My List or whatever, is now when somebody talks about it online, it always points back to you. Whenever they use it in real life, they think of you. But if I would've called it the High Priority Relationship List or something—

It's not memorable and it's not yours.

Exactly. So a clever name. The second thing we need are steps. So whatever we're teaching somebody, we want to— these are the 3 steps to do it right. These are the 5 steps to do it right. Part of the human brain loves process, and what you're paying somebody for in transformation is the expert, the best world-class process, expert-driven or recommended process. So we need to break it down into steps. So we have a clever name. I might also go back and say that's where like a visual would be helpful to under the clever name, like a triangle or whatever. Then you got the steps. The third thing I think is really important is science. So over 250 peer-reviewed psychological neuroscience or behavioral science studies are a part of every single thing. The citations are in the back of every module.

So like, you have to back it up, back it up.

It's not just what some old bald guy said works, right? It's like, that's okay, but you want to have like, no, this is universal, this is timeless, this is how relationships are formed, this is how the thing is done, or whatever. And then the last thing are really, really tight stories. That if you want to scale IP, you want to have a certification process. So we've had a couple hundred people go through a certification process to teach these things, whether they're internal at a client or they're on our team. And then that's where you want to build a certification manual showing people how to go through all of that.

You got it. What it means to teach this material.

Exactly. And that can just start out as a Google Doc. This did. But you can even see the great layout is this is the page they see and this is what you say.

Oh yeah, I mean, it's the, so I was homeschooled growing up, right? And so there was always, you know, my mom would always have the teacher's edition of whatever book I was going through. You've seen it. You've seen the teacher's edition.

This is the teacher's edition. Yeah, exactly. And so what you've got when you combine all those 4 things, you come up with a really unique IP that not only can come across as world-class, participant, but you can scale through certified partners because you've documented, like at McDonald's, this is exactly how you make the French fries. This is exactly how you run the class. Now we can talk about how long the certification takes. It's not easy, all that. We don't— it's hard to pass. But anyway, there's a system to scaling through IP and it comes back to always, always breaking down what you know into smaller pieces. And every one of those major pieces needs to have those 4 things.

Okay, so is this something that only works if you are selling into businesses or like large consulting groups, or is it something that, you know, as you see all these creator businesses, you're like, oh man, I wish I could come in and I could just show you this methodology?

Yeah, it could work both. Yeah, like what mutual friend would be like Tiago Forte. I love Tiago's stuff. It's been transformative to me. And so like one of the things that at one point some of his team members came in, went through our course partly to learn it, but partly also to think, hey, how could we take this content potentially?

What does this look like done in this way?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so I think about something, one of my side passions is teaching about flywheels and teaching that in business. And if I wasn't running a software company, then probably what I would be doing is developing all this IP around flywheels because I, you know, like many of us have read Good to Great and said, you know, love the idea of a flywheel and all that and said, give me more. And then got the Turning the Flywheel manifesto and then discovered that it's like 2,000 words or 5,000, you know, it's very, very short and was like, I need more. And so through my own obsession, I created a huge amount of material, but it's not on this level yet. You know, it's a video course, it's some level of worksheets and all of that. But I can see how to take it from, yep, a course in coaching, which is very common in, um, you know, in the creator business world, to this, which is a whole other level. And it lends so much more credibility when you're like, look, here's all the material, here's all the methodology, and here's the physical workbooks that I can take you through. Yeah, like, it's not even just about I could sell more or charge more for it. It's about, I bet I would create much better outcomes for the client if I take them through a process like this totally dialed in.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, and I think also that, I think what a lot of B2C creators don't understand is how their impact can scale and how their economics can improve in B2B. For whatever reason, there's like so few people that make that jump and it drives me crazy. For example, you know, a common, the about amount of money that you can charge for world-class IP So you've got to get there first or you can at least start at a lower number. But a common rule of thumb right now is around $1,500 to $2,000 per person per day of training. Okay. So we're at the higher end. So let's call it $6,000 for 3 days of training that the mod— the 2 binders that we talked about. Yeah, a lot of times we'll do 2 days of training upfront, then we'll do several months of what we call small group application coaching, and then we'll do a day of training on the back end. So if there's a group of 25 people, We might all get together in D.C. or London or wherever and go through that. 25 people might go through the first 2 days of training. That would be this module. Yeah. And then they break up into 5 groups of 5, and then once a month they'll meet about doing what we call small group application coaching. Coaching is incredibly good at locking in the behaviors. Yeah. Applying the right framework at the right time, given a meeting they've got coming up Tuesday.

Because then your peers are going to be like, oh, well, actually in module 14, it covers what you're talking about.

About.

Everyone's like, well, turn on your hymnals.

That's exactly right, right. And our coaches, they're right there with them, and there's usually a senior sponsor to say, oh yeah, you should also talk about such and such in the other practice area because I know, I know that. So anyway, training is really good at moving a big group of people forward a long ways, but the, the stickiness might not be there as much. The training is really good for sticky. Okay, so 2 days of training, about 5 months of small group application coaching, and then about a day of training on the back end. And that's this ladder module which reflects back and teaches the hardest to do things. So about a 6-month experience. Yeah. What that does is in the client's mind, it changes this from training to transformation. It changes from project to program. It changes from fees to investment. And when you do that, then we can charge up to $7,000, $8,000, maybe $10,000 per person. So a normal statement of work for us is $120,000, $150,000, $180,000, $200,000 per group, per cohort that goes to the training. And that's just, I mean, that's just easier to do than what, 200 different individual sales or whatever. Like I just think the economics are what, I don't think people, I don't think the creator community quite knows about this yet. Like this is a, this changes everything thing.

Okay, so you said that it's easier to sell in that way when you're selling in bulk and you're selling B2B, I think a lot of creators might be like, ah, it doesn't feel easier.

Yeah, because they're not in the beginning, right? But it is in the end. Yeah.

So how, how do you think about identifying and selling into these organizations? Because it's a different set of skills to learn. Yeah. Then I got 1,000 targeted people on an email list, and then I'm gonna get this number to a webinar and I'm gonna get that number, you know, and yeah, and we're going to sell, you know, however many seats of our $1,000 or $2,000 offering. Yeah. Yeah. What does it look like? What does your sales mechanism look like and how do you help creators make that jump?

Yeah, I've just helped a lot just as friends. Like we don't charge for it. But what can happen is let's say, let's say I'm a creator and let's say I've got a 50,000-person email list, whatever it is, might be 5, it might be 500, it might be 500,000, but I've got some traction. Thing one is I'd want to package up what we do probably in our cohorts or async courses or whatever we're doing already. There's a way to package it up where we could get it to V1. Yep. Right. And it probably, if you're a creator, you know how to get to this.

Right. If you can make a beautiful website or hire someone to do it, you can make a beautiful—

Yeah. You probably have people in your network that can do it. The key here is like somehow you do need to learn instructional design, but you're probably doing a little bit of that in cohorts or anyway. Anyway, we figure out what that is. Then step 2 would be, once I've got materials that I think can be used at a corporate entity or B2B, whatever we want to call it, thing 2 would be to source leads. So the best way to start a business is just tell people you're starting a business. Like, you're really good at working in public. I've learned that from you. Yeah, your exact words, work in public. And I've tried to do more of that. And so what somebody could do is they could literally have a piece or a preface or have a whole article that they send out in their weekly newsletter about what they're learning and starting their own business. Right. The best way to just work in public. And then at the bottom say, hey, I'm looking for 3 pilot clients that I'm going to give a great deal. Show an image of what they're going to get, right? Show them what they're going to get and say, if you're at an organization that would be interested in taking the things I already do individually to your entire team, then just, just reply to this email or fill out this form or whatever. Then what you can get is, you know, you're going to get a lot of people interested. You're going to have to have some kind of mechanism to sort through the people that can really make the decision versus those that can't and all that. Probably mean a lot of 20-minute phone calls. But you're probably pretty easily gonna get 2 or 3 pilots. Even if somebody had 1,000 people on their email list, I'll bet 10 of them are leaders in an organization. 20, they already love you. They read your newsletter every week, right? So then just give them a great deal, make a little bit of money, but use it as a way to learn how does this go?

How did the material land? What objections did they have for the sales process? Did I enjoy teaching?, you know, in that form.

Was it fun? Do I like flying somewhere? Yeah, yeah. I'll even say this, like, when we went from this V1 to V2, remember I said I hired instructional designers and graphic designers for this? It actually didn't start like this. What we did, because we— because the difference between here and here was about 100x content. Okay, we actually didn't start with this. We started with crappy Google Docs. They're just literally printed Google Docs. And I went to a client that had already liked this, took one click up and said, I'm looking for a couple pilots. I'm gonna give a 50, I think I gave a 50% off deal. By the way, the prices were sort of made up because I didn't know how much this would be, but they were my best guess. I was being authentic. So they truly got to my best guess, a 50% off deal. And I literally showed like, we're gonna teach with Google Docs. But what I'd ask for you to get half off is for— I'd just like to have about 30 minutes at the end of the class that the participants know they're going to give me feedback, right? What to change, what to tweak, what they loved. And we will have a form, but we'll white— we'll flipchart some of this. And they loved it. And literally there were people that filled out the smile sheets at the end, you know, that scored on a 1 to 5 scale. And here's what I learned. And, you know, the room was too hot and I like— but I like the Subway sandwiches or whatever. But there were literally people said this was the best training of any kind we've ever had at our organization. And they were a 3,000, 4,000 person organization, so they weren't small.

Right. They've done a lot of training.

And this was Google Docs. Right. So that's when I said, okay, I'm ready to write the last check to the graphic designer and start, let's go. And that's when we—

You got to test your MVP. So we tested it.

Yeah. We tested it.

Yeah, so I'm seeing this iteration as we go of like, first take all of your ideas. Yep. And the stories that you tell and all that and codify it in some way.

Yep.

Even if it's the weekend sprint Printed at FedEx office.

That's exactly what it was.

And then from there you're like, okay, how can I develop this out? You know, more worksheets. Yep. You know, flush it out more, test that, right? That's something that, uh, from the design and software world we do all the time.

Yep.

Of like, we think we have brilliant ideas, but you never know until you get it in front of users. And so get the, in the room, get the feedback. Oh, we did this, uh, this author mastermind that we hosted just 2 weeks ago. At the end we said, hey, if you've got a little bit of time, we'd love to spend 20 minutes just like, we're gonna host more of these.

How did it go?

How'd it go? What do you think? What would you do differently?

Yeah.

We got great feedback. Yeah. You know, and all these things when you said like, okay, if you were to make one thing better, 'cause we're gonna do two more of these this year, like what would you change? And people are like, oh, well it was great, but oh, you know, I would do this. You know, and you got the, the great feedback.

Yeah.

And then you can iterate from there. And so you don't have to spend $50,000 up front.

That's exactly right.

Yeah.

Yeah. And these numbers I'm throwing out, A, it was a long time ago, but B, you can do this on your own. Like, somebody could do this on their own because it— because it's iterative. I think the barrier somebody can have in their mind is, oh, I can't get all the way to where they're at now. But we're also working with the biggest and most prestigious professional service firms in the world. Right. You know, the, the tier 1— there's 3 tier 1 consulting firms. We train 6,000 people at one of them. The top law firms, 5 of the 10 biggest in America. Sotheby's, the high-end art auctioneer, we trained the people who call them billionaires to consign the Rothko painting. But that was the end version. I wouldn't have gone. They wouldn't have bought this, right?

So start somewhere.

But somebody did. And it was a whole lot better than me selling per unit of time at a coffee shop. So you just keep— you just keep marching up another rung in the ladders of wealth, if you will. Have I plugged your book enough?

You have. It's great.

I love it. More?

We'll get a few more in towards the end. I'm thinking about this B2C to B2B shift. Yeah. And so Kit lives, you know, I spent all my time first selling like really to consumers originally, or like maybe you call them prosumers. Yeah, right. It's still in their career. You're not— it's not like purely on their home life or something else, you know. But I was originally selling to individual designers when I was selling training and books. And then Kit is like this in between, like you're running a business, but it's a solopreneur usually and all that. I want to help people make this leap. Maybe we can jump into some examples of going like full B2B. What would it look like, you know, if you're providing business coaching to solopreneurs and you're like, hey, let's actually make this move into doing it to businesses at scale? Because the things— one, examples, and then two, the other thing is people would think— I, I can hear like some imposter syndrome.

Oh yeah.

And I'm like, oh well, I could help the mom-and-pop shop down the street do that, but I could never— yeah— help, you know, this massive, uh, you know, $100 million company do that.

There's a lot of objections, and let's just overcome them. One is, um, some people are scared of the contracting. I've probably heard that more than anything else. Okay, man, I don't, I don't have the right people to do— isn't it really expensive? I've heard it can cost $10,000 or $20,000 just to get the contracts done and legal fees. We had one example that it was $20,000, but I also have an example of a Fortune 5 company that just signed our documents without one edit, right? So that's a, you know, to your point around everything in life is a skill that can be learned, especially when we get to the, I don't know, the ladders of wealth. There's— I'm— now, now it's ridiculous, isn't it? Okay, it's going to get funny later. We're going to have to go through the trough of it's not funny, and then I'll keep bringing up your book. But anyway, one of your One of your main insights in The Ladders of Wealth is that making money is a skill that can be learned. So if we transfer that to going from B2C to B2B, these are skills that can be learned. Getting through contracting, creating leads, finding the right decision maker in a complex organization. It might be a P&L leader, it might be a learning and development person, right? It might be the— in our world, it can be the, the CMO or the CBDO, Chief Business Development Officer, Chief Marketing Officer at a big professional service firm. They're like 80% of the time, the people who bring us in, well, then what you do is you find the conferences they go to. You can actually, you can actually look and see who they are on their website and their emails right there. In a professional service firm, you can just reach out to them directly. There are ways to take— and I'll wrap with this— is like there's ways to take everything we learn in the B2C world— funnels, overcoming objections on the web page, how do I build my sales muscle and my flywheels around referrals and things like that. You can do the same thing in B2B. It's just, it's a little bit different, but it's the same stuff that makes you successful here, makes you successful there. You just have to figure out how to do it in that new environment.

So let's use me as an example. Let's say this is not the case, but let's say that I wanted to dive in and take this Flywheels material, uh, and it exists as a multi-thousand dollar course. Yep. That, you know, about 100 people have gone through. We've tested the material and all of that. I can see how I'm taking that and I would go to like create the physical side of it, you know, more advanced workbooks. But that is all message and position to helping creators build flywheels in their business.

Yep.

But the IP doesn't have to be creator specific. Yep. What would it look like if you were like, okay, Nathan, like businesses need flywheels. Yeah. How would you translate that into the corporate world?

I'd probably think of two things first, and I'd start there with experiments. I'd think industry and function. Okay, so maybe I'd ask a question back to you. Yeah, if you could think of an industry that works on flywheels, like obviously I— it's our world, but I think of professional services, right? Like referrals or flywheels, like, so that's an example. But it might not— you might— maybe you're bent towards software or something. Anyway, I think industry And then I would think function. Okay. So my brain goes to when you think industry and function, think you want to blend like a little Venn diagram of where is a truly great altruistic fit with who has the money to spend, right? So for instance, it's a lot easier to sell a high-ticket item like we do to people that are going to bring in more business. So at a tier 1 consulting firm, the average partner pay, or maybe the— let's say it this way— the book of business that they would manage is probably in the $5 to $10 million range. Okay. Well, if they can just improve that by 10%, $500,000 to $1 million, well, that frames and anchors on our training, which is a whole lot less than that. Yeah. So back to you. If you were going to take the flywheels, what industry might be like really needing of the content or desirous or like they would feel the impact. And then if you think function or role, who in that organization needs it the most?

Yeah, so I, I can think of examples of what, you know, maybe going what I wouldn't do and then what I would. On the what, what I wouldn't do is we could say like, you know, let's implement great flywheels for, uh, coffee shops or restaurants. Yeah, right, because it's like, oh, if we get an incremental gain here, like there's not—

the economics aren't—

the economics in there, they're not going to if they're paying their team, you know, $20 an hour or $30, you know, right? Yeah. They're not going to be able to pay thousands of dollars for training. Yep. For that team. And then also there's not the leverage there. If we, you know, if we get you twice as many people coming in through the door through a better flywheel, it's like, okay, we actually just broke our business.

Yeah.

You know, like we can't physically do that. Yeah.

And so like that's—

So not that. Not that. And so then you're going to the other side where you know, the things I'd be looking for are there's a lot of potential for leverage and scale. So, you know, we're in software, professional services. Yeah. You know, anything on that, that area and then looking for a lot of money like high salaries. And so you might just even look through. Yeah. Okay. Who gets paid at least $150,000 to $300,000 a year, you know, in these roles? And then how can I unlock more? Yeah. And then the last one that I would look for is like an industry that I have some level of experience in and a passion for.

Yeah, because there's a language, there's a pattern of vernacular to an industry. And if you don't speak that, they— it's organ rejection right away.

Yeah.

So keep going.

Yeah. So for me, you know, the things that I love, like I would be in software.

Yeah.

Because that's, that's my world, right? Yeah. So helping implementing flywheels to help software companies.

And would you go then when you think function within software, or roles, would you think coders need it or marketers need it or the C-level?

Yeah, that's an interesting thing that I think everyone listening would run into where they're like, well, everybody does, right? And that's a trap.

Yeah, because you want to be focused.

You have to, you know, and like if you choose and say, look, we're going to help operations executives and, you know, at software companies implement flywheels across it, like that's specific. We can reach all of them. And if the head of engineering shows up or the sales leader shows up, great. But at least we got in the organization through something that's very, very targeted. So I would focus on probably internal operations or the caveat to that is anytime you can drive revenue, people love it.

And so that if you were on sales and marketing, that's where they'll spend money. They will find budget.

They will find budget because they're like, oh, if we implement this and it has a 10% lift, like it'll pay for itself in this amount of time. And so if there's 3 categories, like the, the worst category I think is anything where you're just relieving a pain of some kind, uh, or an inefficiency. The second and better category is when you can point to exact money saved. And then the third and the gold standard is money earned.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. What would you add to that or what have you seen of examples there?

You know, I would just say that this can feel intimidating to somebody that hasn't done it before. And like I said, I've talked to dozens and dozens of people that want to make this shift. Few, few make it through. And I think it's because either the obstacles in their mind are bigger than they are or they just don't start small enough and keep going. Right. You know, you and I have talked a lot about the brain thinks in linearly linear terms, but the things actually grow in exponential if you stick with it. And so to break it down, I would say just know that you don't know all the right answers, right? Maybe you start with sales roles in high-tech software companies. Like, that's what our hypothesis is. Try it out. It might not be right. That's fine. But lower the bar on perfection and just focus on action. So come up with the Google Doc version. Share it with some people that are usually the first people to buy or people that are going to trust you already. So tell them it's an experiment. Tell them it's a pilot. Tell them, bring them into the fold and get their feedback on what it originally looks like. There's some science called the IKEA effect, first studied by Michael Norton out of Harvard, you know, all like the Mount Rushmore team of researchers that find that people buy into what they help create. So actually, the fastest way to get a yes is actually to invite people in to help create it. And then you're gonna get your pilot. Maybe it's half the people you talk to, but half is really good. You know, if you go to 6, you got 3. And then you tweak from there, you tweak from there, you tweak from there.

So that's where if I have 20,000 people on an email list and maybe, I don't know, 500 customers have gone through this, I can email those people and say, hey, I'm thinking of taking my methodology into corporate training. Do you have any, you know, who should I talk to? Do you have any connections? Like if that's you, raise your, you know. Ask for help. Hit reply and let me know. And you'll probably get, 50 or 100 replies. The thing that I've been shocked about in all of these email lists that people build is who is actually on the lists, right? And so there's going to be people who are like, oh, well, I actually run corporate training at this company.

Exactly.

Right.

Or I do this.

Or I know the person who does it. Or like, well, my company would probably buy something like that. Yeah. And so just that hand raiser, and it can be as simple as hit reply and I'd love to talk. And then it's a 20-minute call that you schedule and, you know, and you'll learn so much.

Well, and that brings me to something almost everybody misses. So this is like a— this is a cheat code for sure, is everybody gets focused on the vanity metrics of how many people I have my list or what my open rate is. And those are really important. We should do that. But to your point, the quality of the person or the level that we can personalize things or segment whatever we want to call it, Brennan Dunn kind of stuff is really important. So we might want to have— if we're going to, if we're going to try a B2B business, we want to keep growing our email list to the people that metaphorically could be in the seats of a training. That's the majority of people. But like, here's an example of a lead magnet, if you will, that is for the people who buy our training. So we have two different roles, two different roles. So if you go to growbigplaybook.com, that's a, that's a short little kit form to get our normal newsletter. If you go to winning-more.com, yeah, winning-more, you got to put the word dash in there. You go to like a horse betting site, but this is a download. But this is about a 10,000-word PDF that tells you exactly how to quantify the value of a business development training, how to sell internally, what the training and coaching looks like in frameworks, just like you and I have talked about verbally, how to measure success. Like everything about the change management of going from people think of business development as secondary to going to they think about it as a primary part of their role and they're thinking about growth more than they're thinking about delivery. This is the change management, the secret change management system that we use and we literally give it away, right, to leaders. So if I'm giving a speech at the Legal Marketing Association conference or I'm doing a webinar with a partner, I can I can show this on the screen or hand it out and say, if you want this, just go to winning-more.com and set up. Now, when somebody signs up there, tag, right? Oh, they're a decision maker. So they're not the person in the class, the person who buys the class. And now we can personalize messages. We can reach out to them for one-on-one, all that stuff. I think that that's rarely— that like, that's the most common thing. That's the most important that people don't do.

Yeah, because they're so used to the buyer and the, uh, or let's say the decision maker and the student being the same person. The same person.

Yeah. And here they're not.

And, and so you, you realize, okay, those are different.

Yep.

And that's actually, you know, so back when I was working at a startup doing design, you know, I would look at these design conferences that I wanted to go to and they would always have one, like they'd have all the things like, here's where you should go and all of that. And they'd have one little PDF at the bottom and it would be the how to convince your boss to pay for it. Oh, and it was such an interesting one. And it just— you click on that. That's that. Yeah. And you would read it and be like, oh, it's not— I want to go to this.

Yeah.

It would give you all of the wording and all of that of like, yeah, here's how, you know, I'm going to be able to bring back these design ideas and implement it in our organization. And yeah, you know, if you only send one or two of us, like, we'll still be able to share, you know, with the other five designers on the team. Yeah. And because you realize like, okay, the person writing the check and the person.

Yeah. Showing up are different.

Yeah, yeah.

Ooh, I got one more example. I like it. So when we wrote— we've got two books out, one called The Snowball System, one called Give to Grow. I probably would have written them in a different order, but there's a long story to it. But Snowball System's like the how-to guide. It's 92,000, actually 96,000 words. Like, it's a monster. Tons of information. Give to Grow, we wrote about half as big, and we tried to make it even lighter and breezier. I know you love design, like it won an award for the design of the—

Yeah, it feels easy to read. I'm going to build momentum as I go.

You got it. So what we did here is there are about 7 different ways that we invite the reader to sign up for some kind of value add. And one of the— in some of those ways are for the, the person in the seat of training. Some of those are for the decision makers. So we're super intentional about this. So literally in the first couple chapters of the book, one of the callout, like a subsection of a, like an H2, a subsection of a chapter is why your teams need to read this. And by the way, callout box, if you'd like the team leader guide to how to actually take this to your team and walk them through all the learnings in 5 sessions, just download that here. So again, there's some things in the book like, like there's one, one download that has like 50+ go-to questions for your business development meetings. That's for the person that would get training. There's the team leader guide. That's for the person who would buy training. Well, somebody— when somebody signs up for the team leader guide, we've got somebody that can email them back, say, you know, we automate it, send it to them obviously through KITT. But you can watch those. You can offer a call to them. You can say, hey, I noticed that you work for XYZ, huge professional service firm. If you'd like to meet Mo or Ryan, somebody on our team or somebody else on the team, we'd be happy to set up a call. So we really quickly move towards offers of helpfulness in a more of a one-to-one way when people sign up for the more, more the I'm the decision maker type of assets.

Yeah. So this is a really important thing because lead magnets are like Creator 101. Yep. Right. And so everyone's like, yeah, I have 3 different lead magnets. I drive whether I'm driving from a podcast episode or Facebook traffic or whatever, it's all going to lead magnet. Yep. Like the, the 201 level is you can actually learn a lot by splitting out the intent of the lead magnet, right? Exactly as you're doing, you're saying, hey, this is designed, it's like your Facebook ad targeting, uh, where people start to put the, the targeting into the copy itself where, you know, if you're not in our target market, you're not going to be interested in the ad. And so it's kind of like that where if you're not in our target market, you're like, you're going to skip past this lead magnet. And then you can say like, Okay, the people in the seats are going to be interested in this. The decision makers are gonna be interested in that. And I can tweak my funnels and all of that without even having to ask the question of like, right. You know, kind of on those questions, what they wanted. Are you a buyer at an organization like this? Right. But then I think the, the like 301 level is when you start to place certain lead magnets only in certain places. So an example in your book is if you have a lead magnet for the people who buy training and it's 2/3 of the way through that book and you never link to it from anywhere else, you know that that person came not only from Give to Grow, but they have read most of the book to get that. And some people might sneak in other ways.

No, but it's a really good indicator.

And so like James Clear does this in Atomic Habits where he has the lead magnets that you end up at from that book he tags you inside of Kit as a reader. And then when he reaches out, he doesn't email 4 million people and say, "Hey, will you write a review of Atomic Habits?" He only emails through his automations the people who have, he knows have read at least to chapter 6, right? And then the smart thing that he does is he asks them, he doesn't say, "Go review the book." He asks them, "How did you like it? Click 1 to 5 stars." If they click 1 to 4 stars, he says, "Thanks so much for the feedback." If he, if click 5 stars, then he says, thanks so much for the feedback. I'm glad you loved the book. Will you go write a review on Amazon? So he has filtered out, you know, all the non-readers.

I'm going to do this.

Right. And then you end up with 2 groups of people right now. Uh, we have 3 groups. We have readers tagged separately. We have readers who felt mediocre about the book, and now we have our 5-star readers who are tagged. And so when you need I don't know, let's say we're earlier as an author and we need top review. Like someone writes a bad review on Goodreads and we didn't have that many and so it's dragging it down. Well then I can email my 5-star people and say, go, go read this. In your case, you're going to have decision makers at these organizations. And that's a small enough list when you're like, oh man, we're a little short on, like Q4 is looking a little light for workshops.

And it's like, okay, set up a bunch of calls.

Set up a bunch of calls with this exact group.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, so the analog to James's method to play it over to B2B might be maybe you're not asking them for a review of the book. That's a great thing. But asking them, would it be helpful if we had a phone call to talk about how we do training on this topic? Yeah, well, that's revenue.

Yes, that would be helpful.

Yeah. And that's a thing that's in— I should say, that's the thread through all of our materials and content is every single thing is about being helpful to the other person. So even though it's business development or relationship development, and obviously we want to have commercial success and bring in revenue, it's always done in every single skill that is taught is that the revenue or the relationship is the paramount thing. So if that means you should tell them you're not a good fit, even if they want to spend money with you, you tell them, right? So the relationship, the long-term relationship is the number one thing. I think that that's interesting about this whole pivot to B2B is that everybody talks to each other. All the L&D people are in communities. In most industries, the marketing people talk to each other, at least they move around from one company to another. So everything you've got to do is about them and being helpful to them. So even the way you word things to have a call, you don't say, would you like to be on a sales call? You say, would it be helpful if we got on the phone and talked about X? And X is not you. X is something for them, their problem.

Yeah. So, yep.

And then so it's gifts all the way through. The book is a gift. The downloads are gift. The call is going to be a gift. And then we even have— actually, can I give the other secret? Yeah.

Okay.

Always. Here's the other secret that nobody does that's really important is— and this is more once you get going, it's not right out of the gate, but it's super important. You want to build— you want to have public or open workshops for whatever you're going to teach to the B2B, to the client. Yeah. So at this point, we didn't start out this way. It started out with 2 a year or something. But now we have 6 public workshops a year on this core training. It's 3 days in a row. It's in Atlanta. And if we get a lead from the book and we realize it's, it's a good one because they downloaded the team stuff, one of our folks will reach out. Would it be helpful to have a call with somebody from the team, one of our 4 account executives or one of our trainers or potentially me? If it's a really, if it's a really high-end firm, we have that call. We're going to be 100% focused on adding value. We're not We're not trying to sell anything, but somewhere in like a 30-minute call, I like to have 4 or 5 times, maybe even 6, that I say, that I say, would it be helpful if— would it be helpful if we sent you our core training materials? We'll send you the actual materials, not an overview like we're talking about now. Would it be helpful if I sent you a book? Would it be helpful if I sent you our new planner that we've got coming out on Amazon? Would it be helpful if you send people to one of our public workshops It's 3 days, covers all the material. I'll waive the fees. That'll save you— if 3 people come, it'll save you $15,000, $16,000. You pay to get here, but we want to waive the fees so you can see how great it is. So all the would it be helpful ifs are really important. That one's the most important. What ends up happening is there'll be a class of these days 30 to— I think the last one had 55 people in it. They flew in from all over the world. 3 people from this company, 5 from this one, 2 from this one. Some people pay for it, which makes it nice. That makes it a little, a little profitable on its own. Massively profitable when you think through all the people. But having the, having the open session, public session lets people actually come in and see, have the experience of it and realize this is safe, this is awesome. We need it yesterday. Let's go. And that's what converts.

Yeah. The thing that I'm noticing all the way through is you've invested so much in your IP and that ultimately is the product that you're offering. And then everywhere possible, you're like the ice cream shop where you're just like, hey, did you want to— I see you looking.

Would you like a sample?

And you're like, well, I should probably only try one. And the person's like, no, no, no. Would you like a book? Would you like this? Would it be helpful? And again and again, you're just give to grow. You're just investing in relationships and value over and over again. And each one of these things are costing you, you know, $10 on the book, $20 on this. You know, it's not a huge amount of money, but it feels like it's so, so valuable. In this case, you're like, hey, I'm thinking about coming, or I'm thinking about buying this for, you know, 25 sales leaders in my organization. You're like, that'd be amazing. We'd love to make that happen. But why don't you send two of them? You know, would it be helpful if—

and send three people. Yeah, maybe sell an elderly person, a leader, and somebody that would be more—

and then everyone is like, oh, I believe so much in this product.

Yeah, you know. Yeah, social proof, right? Because, because you want, you want— if what we found early on is if one person comes, maybe Jane really likes it and everybody respects Jane, but it's still hard to spend $100,000 or $150,000 or $200,000 As soon as that third person comes.

Oh, interesting.

And for that, it seems like 3, 3 things makes a, makes a trend. Yeah. So for a really great prospect, we'll let them send 5 or so, right? It gives them $25,000+ of value.

Because your cost of goods sold on that workshop is like—

it's food.

Yeah, it's, yeah, it's food and the space. Yeah, right. Because your trainer's gonna function the same way.

Yeah, but it's the same space either way because it's always— yeah. So yeah, to your point, it's not very much.

Okay, so Something that I wanna talk about is the day-to-day life of the creator, you know, and how you spend your time when you do this. 'Cause I think a lot of people say like, okay, I would love to do this.

Yep.

But then I'd have to be on the road all the time. Yep. I would have to, you know, now I'm going to be in 5 different cities, which a lot of them do this as keynote speaking anyway. Yeah. And I'm like, well, you're already on the road all the time.

Yeah.

Um, but how do you address that and how does IP help you scale beyond like yourself as a leader?

Well, a couple of things. One is you can have people come to you. Now, that might be a little harder, but Michael Hyatt pulled it off. Yeah. You know, so we both know the— we both love Michael. We love how he runs his business, raises kids, all that stuff. You know, he decided after being on the road for keynote speeches a ton that, hey, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this masterclass type of thing. But just the deal and I'm going to sell it corporately. But the deal is you got to come to Nashville.

Right.

And he just, he had enough oomph that he could do that and put some constraints on it. Yeah. 50 people in a room. He almost did like, they weren't public trainings because it felt really a lot of continuity between one meeting, the next. And there were weekly calls and async stuff and all that. But he had people come to him. So that's option one. Option two is you do it virtually. So especially for shorter sessions, virtual can work really well. One model, we don't do it this way because I think for our stuff in person is, is really important. And our, our clientele so busy, you almost got to get them in the room to put the phones aside. We do a decent amount virtually, but the core is in person. But you could also have like 4 2-hour virtual calls to make one day of training. Totally works. So you could do it that way. You can certify other people to do the flying. Maybe you as the creator handle the really high end clients or the first 2 or 3 or 4 and you're on the road then, but you're quickly bringing somebody else underneath you to be able to actually do the flying around. So, so there's a lot of ways to do it.

I was thinking about Will Guidara with Unreasonable Hospitality. So he's, you know, the pinnacle of the restaurant world and then wrote a book on hospitality. And now he's doing all these incredible projects, but he's built a brand around Unreasonable Hospitality.

It's an incredible brand.

And so everybody's talking about— he's able to have his certified trainers go into all these organizations and they're on the road doing it.

Yep. There's a, there's a lot of people have done this.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so, you know, if you want the material, right, there's someone who will happily come teach it to your organization.

Yeah.

If you want Will's time specifically, like, go to their annual conference or go to Nashville where he lives.

Yeah.

Um, and you'll get that. I want to talk about Michael Hyatt's business for a little bit because I think a lot of people from the outside see the business and they're like, okay, cool, he sells planners, right? And that's, you know, okay, it's a physical products business. Like, how's the market? You know, all that. Talk about what you've seen from as Michael implemented systems like this and what you meant for scale.

Yeah. And I'm a little out of date the last couple of years, so I can tell you that from the point I sort of met Michael and the team up to— because a bunch of their team went through our classes. So let's That's how we met. And through Chad Cannon, who was CMO and chief sales officer for— chief revenue officer for a while. Anyway, Michael's awesome and his stuff is awesome and his content's awesome. And he had been flying around to do different keynote speeches. And then the planner business blew up, like incredibly successful. And it's so well done. It's so well done. And anyway, at one point he wanted to scale the business more and they're getting all these people that are using the Full Focus Planner. And so there was a moment where they, they— I think his email list was half a million people or something. It was, it was large. But basically there was some type of message that went out that said, hey, we're thinking about doing this thing called Business Accelerator. Are you interested? Or something like that. And the leads just like piled up. And I was— happened to be talking to Chad at that time. I think at this point he had switched from CMO to Chief Revenue Officer or something similar. And he's like, man, it's going to be brutal. But for like 6 weeks, I just got to be on back-to-back calls because we don't have a sales team. We got way more demand than we thought we did. So he just like every day, like 20 minutes a call back to back.

He's just qualifying leads.

Yeah, just call. And he's systematizing it in the only way Chad can do in this brilliant mind kind of savant kind of way. Anyway, he gets like 200 people that are really interested in Business Accelerator that were able to pay $10,000 or $15,000 a year or whatever it was. To come to 4 meetings a year in Nashville. Michael would teach those. You'd be in a room of 50 people. So pretty, pretty lot of, lot of scale. You had to come to Nashville to do it. Yeah, there was a little bit of coaching you got as a part of it, but most of the things were at scale anyway. I don't know the exact numbers, but I would guess Michael's business almost might be a little less than this from that point, but almost 100x'd.

Wow.

Through Business Accelerator. I might be a little off. It might be like 40x because I'm trying to— I know it 100x over a period of time. I don't know when this was in the slider, but it was a big deal. Yeah. And Chad and the whole team, but they got that going and then it was so powerful. The flywheel of word of mouth started and the next quarter there was a bigger cohort, the next quarter, and they ended up with like 8 or 10 of these 50-person groups. Wow. 15, I don't know. It was a bunch. And that, and that was a, that was an interesting little more selling to entrepreneurs. Yeah. So in some cases, the, the decision maker and the client was the same person, but they had a lot of corporate people in there too. So a lot of B2B.

When that gives you the idea, the idea of the level of scale that all of this can have, because I think people say like, oh, I like selling digital products because it has infinite scale.

Yeah.

Which is true, but there's still a grind of opening up the cohort and, you know, everybody feels that. Yeah, yeah. And there's a lot to it. Whereas a physical, you know, in a physical event and a date has some really nice scarcity to it. It does.

Well, and to go one click deeper into the B2B world, what it won't be for— it won't be everybody, but for a significant amount of clientele, they want to buy a particular training at a transformative time for the person. Yeah. So they go from level A to level B. In our world, it's going from the time, whatever words are in the organization, the time where I just had to really get at doing work to where I also have to learn how to win work. Yeah, it's usually partner, managing director and partner, SVP, words like that, depending on the organization and the industry. So what'll happen is the first time to get that business and tailor it and customize it, even though these materials stay the same, how you deliver the class is a little bit different for each client based on their words, vernacular, needs, priorities. But what happens then is every year a new partner class happens and they just call you up and say, hey man, went great last year, let's do another one this year. We got 30 people instead of 22. We're growing. We want to do one in London and one in D.C., right? Let's— what dates work? Like that's the whole sales process is an email. Yeah. So I think the thing that the B2C folks that are thinking about B2B don't see is they see the beginning, which is it's hard to get the first gig. By the time you get the 17th gig, it gets really easy. And once you get into one organization, if you do it right, it's an annuity. So you don't— you don't get one installment, you get installments forever.

Yes, that's really valuable because it turns out these companies have been around for 20, 40, 100 years are probably going to be around for—, you know, the next 20, 40+ years. Exactly right. And so you can— yeah, you're not having to sell to new people. Yeah, they're bringing you— just go through—

you're part of— you, you switch from CapEx to OpEx. They just know that every year we're going to run the GrowBig program for that group. And then when you get those kind of annuity cohorts, the, the new elected partners or whatever it is, it could be different. Um, what happens is you become— like, for us, we become the business development, call it operating system for the organization. So then when they need a keynote speech at a practice area retreat, they don't want to go out and find somebody new that's going to say something slightly different. It's going to be confusing. They just call you and say, hey, we got this new thing. Do you do this thing? Like, we do this thing. That's— yeah, that's what we do. And then you just end up— then so when you— especially when you get those every year programs, you just get everything else. Yeah, it's freaking awesome.

This has been amazing. I think we could go deeper and talk.

Let's do it. Let's do 4 hours. Yeah, exactly. I love this. I just— I'll be 90 years old with a cane and I'll still want to talk about this. I'm so passionate about it. About it.

So you probably have so much online material where you dive into this kind of stuff as well. Yep. Um, I wanted you to share where people can follow you in general. Is there anything that, like, in particular where you've talked about building IP or this sort of thing more?

I usually don't talk— like, I, for you, I've sort of let people peek inside the business. So like, this is it. I would say if they love, if they love this idea, I'd give a couple options. One is our email, newsletter on kit is at growbigplaybook.com. That's probably the best way to get it. I'd also say the book Give to Grow. Yeah, it's— I mean, it's just foundational principles for all of this.

Yeah. Yeah.

It's the best $20 you'll ever spend. So I'd probably say those two things are probably the— probably the main things.

That's amazing. Well, I'm so excited to be here in Atlanta. Thank you for hosting us. I'm excited for the event in the next couple of days. Yeah. Thanks for coming on. And then also I did an episode on your podcast.

It was so good. Yeah. So either it is going to happen, but we already recorded it. Yeah, exactly. We don't know. But if it's— but check out Real Relationships, Real Revenue on everywhere podcasts are and then search for Nathan Barry. We did one a couple of years ago. Yeah. That talks more about email newsletters. Your audience might already know all that stuff, but I think the one we just recorded is so— All about money. So good. All about money. How do you think about wealth? How do you make about making money? And if this is far out in the future, we're recording this in 2026, so Um, sounds good. They're both really good.

Thanks, Nathan Barry. Yeah, thanks for coming on. If you enjoyed this episode where Mo talks about what it takes to scale beyond yourself, go check out episode 111 with Chandler Bolt, where he breaks down the 3 stages of scaling a business to $1 million, $10 million, and beyond. Like the video if you enjoyed it, hit subscribe on YouTube, wherever you're listening, and I'll see you next week.