From Special Ops Sniper to Sales Sniper: Matt Ryder's Precision Approach to Sales Mastery
This is a YouTube video titled "From Special Ops Sniper to Sales Sniper: Matt Ryder's Precision Approach to Sales Mastery" containing an in-depth interview conducted in 2025. The conversation features Aaron interviewing Matt Ryder, a former special operations sniper turned sales expert known as the "sales sniper." They discuss Matt's transition from military to sales, his sales training philosophy, methodologies, and practical advice on sales processes, CRM usage, and coaching. The content is a detailed exploration of sales skills development, drawing parallels between sniper precision and sales techniques, aimed at sales professionals and enthusiasts.
But dude, thank you for coming on. For anyone who doesn't know, Matt is a freaking genius and known as the sales sniper in our world. But most importantly, he has influenced a whole generation of sales talent and a certain methodology. Was co founder and CEO of seventh level in any pq. So Matt, thank you for coming on here. I'm super pumped to have you in addition to a recent friend. Now in the last few months, we got to hit it off at Kohl's Mastermind, and then you've just been helping me randomly on various different problems. It seems like you've encountered pretty much any business problem that someone could have with a sales call funnel. So. Appreciate you.
No pleasure. I like solving problems. It's like the funnest thing ever. So, like, if I could be independently wealthy and just solve problems for free, I would do that. That would be a fun job.
Dude, you. Well, you do pretty much. And I know Dialer is the focus here today, but especially people, maybe some people don't know. I'm in your YouTube sales training. Joel and Chad now are in your YouTube sales training community. And there's over. You've been voracious on the content that you've been putting both publicly facing and private facing. So I'm curious.
Yeah.
What is. How did those two. Did they. Do they go hand in hand? Is that the vehicle you use in order to sell Dialer or is it just a passion?
Well, it solves multiple problems. The first thing is eventually, I think the way that GHL built their business was really clever and it was a lot of affiliates and community building and stuff like that. And so my plan is to bring out an affiliate thing and that feels like a good way to make it not like extremely accessible because, like, it's not a software that like, it's a more custom software than what GHL is, you know, I mean, so like, it's not as I don't want as many people coming onto it and so being giving people the opportunity who I know that I can take time to educate on the product. That'd be a good way. Also, like, I don't want to take any money from Dialer, but then I also don't want to end up doing a whole bunch of other projects, you know? Yeah, yeah. And so like I was like, what are some ways? So, you know, I was like, hey, I get hit up 35 times a day for sales training. I don't have an interest in doing the high ticket, high fulfillment, high delivery stuff. People that they can stay in their lane but what I do is I have a knowledge base and I also have a good network. And so like the coaches coach for free because like they can upsell guys into one on one and I don't take a cut. And so I have like 10 coaches. They all do it for free. All different parts of the world. They're all good because they're all guys that I've trained and it gives them an opportunity to like make more money, you know what I mean? And then I get a bunch of coaching sessions. I only have to do a couple a week and you know, it makes good money. It's like 500 members now.
How many people do you think have seen or been trained by you in sales now? When you think of like the content leverage between seventh and what you're doing now and sales sniper before that, I.
Mean like if you take out like the organic content, like actually people, it's, it's in the tens of thousands, like in sort of like people who have like seen like direct stuff. That's not including just like watching YouTube. Right, YouTube. You know, you're looking in the metrics of millions. But I would say like people that have like bought a program that I've been directly involved in, it's in the tens of thousands, like probably maybe, maybe a hundred. Maybe a hundred thousand. A lot.
Nice, dude.
So that is a little bit of a cheat code when it comes to recruitment.
It's a little. No, it's a lot of bit of a cheat code which is. It makes sense why like when I sent you that feedback today, Matt had just placed us a rep, great rep. Immediately went to top performer of the floor last week or two weeks ago. And it's just voracious. The activity is there. So it's nice when you have that sort of circle of influence. I never had that with media buyers. I always, I would have loved, love to love to have that. There's not as many media buyers as there are high ticket salespeople out there. Or even just.
It's also like it's like black art, you know, Like I think people don't want to like doing, doing like in depth stuff on media buying would be almost counterproductive to your own media buying.
Yeah, you're right. It's because all media buyers are competing externally where sales reps only compete internally with their team on the leaderboards. Right. So that I guess there is that component to it and there is just simply. You're right, it's black boxed not only from the media buyer, a little bit Some media buyers just don't even know what they're doing because of algorithms and the fact that their data is black box from. So when have you ever seen the Chad virgin buyer meme? It's just like the Chad buyer just goes broad, throws out creatives, throws stuff.
On the wall, gets realized, doesn't like my content. Like, I've been like lucky enough to where I managed to do two niches, right, which is sales reps and business owners, you know, and that's, that was like kind of a weird balance there for a while. But then after a while just kind of like I just like, I just kind of meld all the content together. Definitely. Like, you know, I'm really, I, I love sales. Like, I find it incredibly interesting, which is I think one thing that helps and I like the nuance of it. And, and so, you know, that's why like I struggle to give broad, like, I struggle to answer questions like broad based questions. Like, I just can't. I'm like, I don't have enough, there's not enough information here to answer this. I don't want to give like broad strokes, throwaway lines because people will take it as gospel and they'll use it and shit to bed.
Yeah, yeah, exactly, dude. And I appreciate that because you are persuasive enough where you could say some stuff and it would sound like canon. So I'll avoid asking you. If you could go back and be your 22 year old self, what would you tell yourself at that stage? I almost find that question to be completely useless to me and anyone else.
I'm not the same person, you know.
Yeah.
Like I was professionally killing people for a living at 22, you know, like, that was my job. And like I, I don't think, I think I was a well intentioned bad guy, you know, I don't think that I knew what I was doing. I don't think I particularly cared too much about, you know, do you think.
You saved more people than you killed or did you not even think about that at the time?
No, I think like I, I can honestly say that there's not a single thing that I did that I am not 100% good to meet the maker and put my hand up and say, yeah, I did that and that was fine. I had opportunities to do things and didn't, you know, like, I consider myself a moral and just person when people don't look and when I'm in a, like a place with zero accountability. And I proved that to myself, which is the only Reason why I really joined. I wanted to realize I wasn't a pussy. And you know, like I. Yeah, like I'm, I'm not. I mean, I am a heinous one. Yeah, yeah. Like thesis proven, right? Yeah. So like, you know, but the person you are at 22 is like you're a child in an adult's body, you know, and your, your worldview is like, you look at the world. I feel like the younger you are, the, the further back from the keyhole you are, you know, and then like as you get older, you just move in towards it. And so it's just like your, your scope widens.
Yeah.
And, and so that's why like you become more compassionate and you become more like. I mean, I think you should become more compassionate and, and you, you give more context to everything. Like if I see a 20 year old acting like a dickhead and then I go, oh, I remember that. Like that's my initial response, you know, like, you have kids, I have kids. If I see a kid acting like a piece of shit.
Yeah.
If I look at the parents and they're a piece of shit, I go, oh, that sucks, man.
Yeah.
You know, and then like you sort of, you know, you know, that whole. But yeah, it's interesting one like that old 22 year old thing, I think like if I look back and I had advice to myself, it'd be like, keep doing what you're doing, man.
Yeah.
You know.
Do you think.
Did you have any physical gifts that made you a better sniper or was it all learned skill?
I mean, my huge penis probably plays a large role.
Is that for stabilization when you're laying on your stomach?
Yeah, it's, you know, it's cock push ups, man. You've only got to do one right? So no, I never shot really before. Like, my parents didn't own guns, you know, I mean like I grew up in the States but we didn't own guns. I'd never really done much shooting, which is a good indicator that when you join the military you can be a good shot because you have any bad habits. And so I had the want to go into snipers, but then I sort of got in and realized what the job was and I sort of wasn't that interested in it. I was kicking doors and I was an assaulter. Like I liked that, you know, because I went through like normal army and then I went into special forces and then I went into like other realms within special special forces. And so I liked what I was doing. It was fun. Like Doors in sort of more my personality.
Right.
High five with the boys and do those ones. Then I was shooting at the range one day, and dude with the beard I'd never seen before, snipers in my unit didn't wear uniforms. And you were siloed off into like a little. It's like the media buyers of the world, it was over the. It was the soldier autists.
Right?
And like, no one knows what you do. You're sort of like in your own. You're in a gray role. No one really has dominion over you.
Right.
You can't be told how to do it. You just get told the outcome. It's. That's the only job in the army. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. Oh, you are like. You are the personality of a sniper. Like, you 100. Like how me and you, like, talk all nerd all the time. Like, that's. You go into the sniper's office and it's just like ballistic coefficients, you know? And. And yeah. And so I was shooting at the range. Dude was like, hey, that's good shooting. I was like, thanks, man.
He's.
What's your name? And so I told him. And then he goes like, sweet. And that's just walked off. Didn't think anything of it. The next day they were like, you're on sniper course. I was like, no, I didn't sign up for it. They go, you're in the army, motherfucker. You're on sniper course.
Interesting. So it's much more maybe personality derived than it is breath. Like you hold your breath or you don't have a shaky hand or any sort of.
It's not a difficult skill set. It's a process driven activity.
Cool. Okay.
And anyone can be an awesome shot.
Yeah. And that's how I feel about marketing.
Can you turn your mic volume up a little bit? I think your mic volume, your output volume is low.
I sure can.
Maybe we can chat trades when you get home, buddy.
All right.
You want this? You want this one? Do you?
No. All right.
I just want this pack. Oh, you want a McDonald's pack? Yeah, you can have a McDonald's pack. You want.
Hey, is that better?
McDonald's pack from 2020. Say it again.
Testing, testing, testing.
Still a little bit quiet, but it's all right.
Huh? Here. What?
Oh, no, that's all right.
We can keep pranking.
Testing, testing. Still quiet.
Yeah, it's. It's not. It's not. It's fine. It's. It's not too bad. Yeah.
Oh, well, I'll. I'll shout, shout at you.
Nice.
So. Yes. So sniper skill set. It's not about that. What, what, what daily habits or what actual activities make you a better sniper then? Because I imagine as you mature, yeah.
Like we had a lot of skill sets. So like we, it was just constant renewal of skill set. And I think like the thing that I realized retrospectively was an extremely valuable skill set was that the problem solving step by step that you get taught is like the perfect way to solve any problem. Which is like when you shoot. Shooting is a great analogy, like a great sort of analogy for most issues. Because if you, if you do everything perfectly and a gust of wind comes at the, at the target, it's a gust of wind randomly, not like a steady breeze. You can't predict that. And you did nothing wrong, but you still missed, right? So you don't make an adjustment.
Right, Right.
But you have to ensure that everything else is being done correctly to assess that that was a good shot and a gust of wind blew it off track.
Right.
And your feet play a far larger role than your hand.
Right?
So like. Well, if you're like a lot of people, like, I'll go to the range and when they lie down to shoot, because you're lying down shooting, right, they'll be on their toe like that and they're like, instead of being flat on their, like flat, they're on their toe, which means it's doing that all the time, which means it's a small movement, right? So like 1 millimeter deviation of the barrel at 1000 meters is a 1 meter miss, right? That's the law of substantion. Okay? So like that's how that works, you know. So if you're thinking, if you're shooting at a thousand meters, right? Which is like, say, was it like 1300 yards, something like that, right? And you're trying someone in the, like in the chest, you, you have like a fraction of a millimeter deviation that you can have on that, right? Assuming there's no other variables, like if you're shooting in a vacuum, right? So the, like your, your body has to be in the exact same position. So starts from your feet, your knees, your hips, your points of contact, right? Because like if the gun is at an angle, the spin drift coefficient, it acts differently. So the bin. The, the spin drift will be different, right. Over longer distances, you've got like, you know, Coriolis effect. Like the Earth. You've also got like shooting north, south, east or west is different.
Right.
You know what I mean? You start to learn.
Yeah, yeah.
Shooting altitude is very different. Shooting humidity is very different. Cold is very different.
Right.
Because the, like, the propellant's colder, so the firing point happens slower, therefore it's less speed on the bullet.
Right.
So your feet per second is different. So. And a cold barrel and a warm barrel.
Right.
So you got all these variables, but like if you're, if your points of content aren't the same, if the way that you pull the trigger isn't the same, everything has to be the exact same. Your cheek placement, like usually like we'll shoot in between heartbeats, but like people make that into a bigger thing than what it is. It's very.
Yeah, that's from the. That's why I asked. That's like the common one that plays well in Hollywood.
Yeah, I would say that's like the most minuscule of variables. Realistically, you want to shoot at the bottom of your breath because you can very consistently get a bottom breath, but you can't consistently get the same top breath.
Interesting.
So again, that's, that's because that will affect the rise and fall. So there are all these small things that you can really control, right? And then there's the skill, right, of knowing how to adjust the scope, right. And not fucking snatching, whatever. And then there's the skill of being able to read all the things available. But the problem solving process that you go through and that you have to learn when you're learning how to shoot, you know, is like you start off close, right? With no wind, right? Because you just need to fix the person further out, no wind. Further out, no wind. Further out, no wind. Now you bring an outdoor shooting close. Got it right. Further out, set distances. Then you take away the set distances. Now they got to learn the skill of like figuring out the distance, what are the in between distances, aiming off, stuff like that. So there's a lot of these skill sets that you have to learn. We have to learn them in the, in the right order. And if you don't learn them in the right order, you, you, you, you're gonna fucking suck.
Yeah, right.
And you can see like some of the old school guys that just aren't that good because, like they didn't learn in the right order. And so, yeah.
What is the equivalent order then? For sales? I imagine you might approach sales training the same where it's. Yeah, learn it, learn it without the variables in the environment that would dictate that little part of it and then move on to the next one.
So the first thing is like you need volume, Right. Because you have to have the volume available.
Yeah.
And then you need to have an environment where I think that. Where you will get a large opportunity to pitch, but there is not a huge burden on you. Like, if the first time I shoot is in a live environment, it's pretty stressful.
Right?
So. But role play, I'm not saying roleplay is really good or bad, but, like, if a $400 book call is a very fucking stressful environment for a new rep to learn in and it's a bad idea, right?
Yeah, that's. That's how I was trained. With real money. As a media buyer, you get thrown to the wolves. You're just like, you're spending this much money per day and you can't. You can't go back down. So it is that stressful environment to get right on.
Exactly. So, like, if I can do, like, if I was going to engineer a sales rep, like, if my son was like, I hate myself, I'd like to be a sales rep, I'd be like, cool, right?
Just like your daddy. It was.
Exactly. I'm so proud of you. Yeah. I knew I. I knew I did a good job by not telling you.
You did well.
So, yeah. So I would be like, all right, cool. Go out and. And do. In gym fitness sales, where you have to prospect the people to come into the gym.
Right.
Because the prospecting touch point is like, you get to do the hardest bit, which is the opener the most often.
Right.
So if you. If you look at the call in stages, Right. Objection. Handling is something that everyone does.
Right.
And everyone wants to train and frames, but the statistical likelihood of somebody reaching an objection is very low.
Yeah.
Like, I mean, you know how many people watch a YouTube video then hop on a sales call and end up getting pitched.
Right.
Like, the drop off is incredible, you know, and so just do openers, something that you can get your opener done and then from there, like, you basically just have to sound not retarded. Like, that is the main goal for most initial sales reps. And I teach that by, like, ruthlessly making fun of them. But I do it in a way. Like, so I try to make a joke that is like, the huge exaggeration of what they're doing.
Right.
And then it makes them think about it. There is a. Because they're not going to take in all the information I give them. So I can only give them one real piece of information which they're actually going to utilize. And if I give them 10, I might as well give Them none. So I'll give them one thing. And I'm like, you sound like a fucking idiot when you say this. For this reason, like, it's real harsh and brutal, but they'll remember it, right? There is a guy called Charles Poliquin who was like, an OG Godfather of, like, the strength and conditioning, you know? I mean, and I did a course of his once, and he. He's a real smart guy, and he died a few years ago. He's trained Olympians. And he was like, don't eat carbs, right? He said that. Don't have your kinds. Eat carbs. And I went up to him afterwards, and I was like, why are you saying that? Like, you don't mean that. And he's like, oh, yeah, but you're not dumb. And I was like, huh? He goes, I can tell you're not stupid. I was like, thank you. And he goes, but these idiots, like, they're only gonna absorb 10% of what I say, and they're gonna go back to their clients and say, don't eat bread.
Right?
And if that's. That's what I need to say to get them to have their clients eat less bread.
Yep.
You know?
Yeah, man, but don't you hate it? Cause you said you love the nuance, so you're like, yeah, but. But I learned that, too, the hard way. You just.
Yeah, but, like, in. Again, in, like. So. And I try and tell people, like, the advice that I give people, like, is individuals, the person, the context. So if I were to ask you a question, what's the fastest way to get around a running track?
Right?
And you say, sprinting.
I wouldn't. Yeah, but.
Yes. Yeah, but, like, yeah, exactly. You wouldn't.
Right?
Because you're like, well, I need to ask some questions first.
Clarifying questions.
Yeah, exactly. What if you're a baby, then it's crawling. If you're a toddler, it's toddling. If you're in a wheelchair, it's wheeling around. If you're in a car, it's driving, right? So, like, the. The context is important. So, like, the advice. If I. If I give you advice and say, hey, to get around this track the fastest, you need to crawl. And then someone clips that and says, look at this fucking idiot. Like, it's like, yeah, that's the right advice for that person at that time. It doesn't mean it's the right advice. It's just correct, given the context. And so that's why I think, like, that's one of the things that I really don't like about what I see in coaching is, is like the hardcore definitives like never follow up, never do this, never do this, never do this. It's like. Well you know, you probably should.
Yeah.
There's very few, there's just very few times when there is something that is definitely right or definitely wrong.
When are those few times?
You know, I don't know. I don't think I like you should definitely work a full day. I would say that's probably you know if you're trying to make money in sales, you know. But, but I think like it's just you know going back to the initial question like that, that sort of sniper like that problem solving capability that, that ability to have like a nuance because you know the correct windage the the correct elevation for a thousand meter shot in this environment is not the correct for this environment. And and so if you talk and you learn to, to understand the nuances of situations and then from there like just hard work, you know like the, and, and and watching yourself get better at something. I I just like the thing is with skill sets like sales or probably less like probably less meaty body with sales like there really are some very hard track intangibles that make someone a lot better. You know and it's difficult to put your finger on it.
Yeah.
But I try to knowing that you're getting there is. It can be hard.
Amazing dude. Then what is tangibly because I agree personalization and openers. And you just got to get the rep sense. You can understand all the situationals that makes sense and play to their strengths. Play to the prospect, play to the situation. What does the first day if you were to mentor someone you quit dialer and did everything and you were just going to go back to one on one coaching. God forbid. But you have to do it because your son needs Pokemon cards. Yeah. And you have to basically just ramp someone for 30 days. They don't know anything about this industry. What do you have them do on the first day?
Learn the CRM.
Learn the CRM. Okay how about day two?
So they would do almost no sales training.
Okay.
And like in the beginning because you can be a low skill person that makes really. That makes a lot of sales through sheer organization, admin and process.
Right.
Explain so and why one CRM sit.
Sits there for you because like that's your tool.
That's right.
Like you're you. You talk to people like you know I can throw bullets at people. It's not, not going to do much Right. You know, and so I need a gun, you know, I need to know how to use it, clean it, like all that kind of good stuff. And so your CRM is, it's like, it's where you should live as a sales rep because most of your sales are not gonna be on that closing call. Like maybe half of them, but at least half of your sales should come from follow up. And if you're not getting half your sales, then you're either burning prospects by going way too hard in the pain or you're just not doing it. And it's like, it's just a thing that kind of builds up over time. And the reason why that's an important thing to learn is because it insulates you from the inherent instability or variances of lead flow.
Yeah, right.
You cannot guarantee the same lead flow every month because ad accounts go down and all the kind of things happen. And so what you see is from reps that can't do that is they offer hop a lot because they have no pipeline. So there's a ramp down. And then like they don't have any way of making sales and they leave.
That's up until we overcame it and got better follow up. That was the main curse of our salesforce. I was so consistent and good at filling the leads that we only worked them and people didn't have to follow up. We were zero as positive. So. Yeah, so then I don't know.
That's like the curse of good marketing. You know what I mean?
Yeah, it's the curse of good marketing. There's deficiencies that I have too because of that. The, the one that for marketers who get really good at that is they stop really caring about the email follow up too, because it's so good on the front end or the retargeting sequences that go any deeper than seven days, stuff like that, you start to cut out of your skill set. And I had to go back and learn those later in certain brands that I found myself on that were in a tighter situation, didn't have as much room for error. But when. Yeah, when you're raking, then you can just have so many bad habits on both sides.
Yeah, well, success bias is like, it's almost worse than like failure bias because like success bias, like you can money wallpapers over a number of sins.
Yeah. Success bias is only good for, for, for exuding confidence and delusion of. Of yourself.
Which I'm an expert at. Which is.
Yeah, exactly. It helps you not quit when things you just think you you're, you should be able to figure this out. Why isn't this not working? It seems to work for everyone else. But dude, I agree with that wholeheartedly. So if they were in a situation though, they were new and they were neither good at it, neither you would have them understand their CRM so they understand their workflow. Is that the, is that the idea of it? So know how you're going to attack your day?
Yeah. So because there's a lot of people in the CRM that are asking to buy and I'm not talking about like the whole standard business owner. There's gold in that list, right? Like yeah, I'm talking about there are a lot of people in there that are, that are like they're, they want to buy now and they're raising their hand saying hey, I'm ready but the rep's gone.
Right.
Or they're on holiday or they're just not following up because they're so busy with new calls that that is happening. So like for example, I use clothes a lot. I had filters set up for keywords based on the notes.
Right.
Inch.
If you remember, like follow up or even like cvv.
Right.
I would, I would also do a scrape for that to like just do like an. We had like an order remove for anything that had across the whole floor.
Someone's like I'll buy next month. And you're like great, I'll call you on the first before the other rep. Yeah.
Oh yeah. 100. Yeah. And then I would also, I would set up so the reps that I knew that weren't as good as me, which I thought was everybody I would set up every time they had a no sale I would follow up with them like 14, 21 days later, whatever the rule was.
Yeah.
So I had that go into a.
Smart view like automatically delete on lead fall off. It's like expired domains when they jump off.
Exactly.
You know if. Clickfunnels. Did you see the guy that got google.com.
I did. That's the story of how I bought a gexa.com because that story inspired me that I was going to be rich by buying expired domain. So every day I would wake up when I wanted to be an entrepreneur for like this one month that I thought this is a good biz op. And I looked at this site that aggregated all the expired domains. I saw a gigsa on there and it stood out to me because I hadn't seen anything good in a long time. And it was a five letter domain that Actually like made some lexical sense. It's one off spelling of alexa dot com. So I was like, that's the one. And then I didn't do anything with it for like five to 10 years. I had no idea that it would be this.
That's awesome.
Yeah. I made zero money from, from that.
I was talking to Shaq Hussein, like, do you know Shaq?
Yeah.
And he was telling me he heard Russell saying he's going to start click funnels. Yeah, he actually just went and bought that day mate.
Yeah.
Salute. Yeah. And then he sold it back to him for like, I think it was like a mill.
I think it was. And wasn't it? Does he own funnels.com too? I think yeah.
Like that, like that's his business, his funnels.com. but yeah, he just heard Russell say it. Clickfunnels.
You just bought it and yeah, that's, that's how I feel about weaponizedautism.com now. I'm gonna have to wait till it expires.
Yeah, you guys should go to that.
You guys should. It's great. It's great. It makes sense. That's a follow up tactic, I imagine. Matt. That works pretty well actually.
Yeah, Like a follow up is just pattern interrupt. People are always asking how to do it. It's like just pattern interrupt, like memes and just like, like, you know, you just like if you want to get their attention, obviously don't be rude, but you just got to do something to get their attention. Like I sent you guys, you know, balloons, right?
Yeah.
So 100%.
Yeah. No, do it. That was great. Like the touch points, they are, you know, personalized, unique. And you're right, it's a pattern interrupt.
So you just like there's old school sales tactics where like if you're like doing in person sales and like someone's going on a tangent, you don't want, you just like. Sorry. Yeah. Anyway, you were saying, right? And then like you just, you slap the table, you know, little stupid things like that. But it's just like, just breaks what they're doing and then it makes you, you can just redirect them.
Right.
So that's really what it is. But there's like farming the CRM, understanding how to use it, utilizing those tools and because like I'm not going to remember to call someone back in two weeks. So like if I'm going to, I can set reminders and like I can do all those things. And that, that, that, that's how I, that's how I insulate. Myself. And I look at it that way and I have, I have different like lead pools. So I'd say, okay, like these are like, this is where I can make sales. And it's like I've got my, I've got referrals. I used to do a 21 day check in with every single person that I sold and then I would ask him for a Referral on day 21.
Right.
So, and that Friday afternoons is when I did that. The reason why it was Friday afternoons because for me on, on the offer, on that offer, right. Friday afternoons it was a very low show rate.
Right.
So I, I calculated when I do outbound, I, I track the pickup rate per hour just in like a manual tracker. And I do that for like a month. And then from there I'm only going to do outbound in times where people.
Pick up and you were checking your own connection rate and speed to lead metrics without before there was even tools like dialer that can.
But I mean it's, it's like your pickup rate per hour is easy. Just like a little. You could do a fucking abacus.
You could.
Yeah. I bet you're rare though. I bet no one does that.
No, but like I have all the sheets, I'll send them to you. But like, but, but for me I was like, well, if I'm gonna work say nine, 10 hours a day, whatever it was, right? I, I want to go to the gym, right? I'm not going to go to the gym. In times when people show up like, that's stupid. I'm not going to call outbound in times where people choose like the out, like people don't really realize like the time of day plays a huge role in the pickup rate. 9 to 11 local is a way better pickup rate than anything else, right?
9 to 11am Local.
Yeah. So like if you can cascade down 9 to 11 EST all around a PST like you're gonna have a much better, a much better answer rate, dude.
I'm gonna look at our dialos clients and see if that time box.
Yeah. Also like Monday mornings is bad. Friday afternoons is bad. Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday are higher pickup rates like just always. And then you can look at show rates. I tracked all my show rates per per hour per day. And then I tracked my close rates and I, and I figured out that how many calls I could do before my efficacy dropped off. Right? So calls in a day for me it was like 7. If I did any more than 7 sales goals in a day, just my brain didn't like it. And then if I did any more than three in a row, so if I would do four, my fourth one would never close.
Right, interesting.
So I would just have a break and then I would go again. Have a break. Go again. So what I would usually do is I would do three. Three one. You know what I mean? Or three, three. So I would try and do six in a day. And then I would just make sure they showed up. And then I have a process to make sure that I have a really high show up rate because the closure can really affect the show rate. So that's a really big one. It's just optimizing those. So now I have a week that's fully structured for making money and it's efficient and optimized.
You have just a make money week. That's fascinating too. So it's your own version of that process that you kind of developed.
Yeah.
Is seven calls still hold when it's zoom for you now or is it 7? Like sales? Sales calls?
Oh, no, I can do like 25 now. There's like no limit.
Like, well, right, so I know. Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, no, these days, like, I find sales so easy these days.
Yeah.
That like I'll do like really intense role plays while playing solitaire.
Interesting.
Like it's not, it's not a mental, there's no mental load anymore.
Playing chess. Yeah. Multiple boards at one time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's fine. Yeah. But like everyone, most people, like, you know, they'll see these. Like, they'll, they'll see these, they'll just make the wrong inference and they'll be like, I'm doing 10 calls a day. I don't know why I'm not closing. I'm like, well, stop, mate. How long you been in sales? Because sales is a puzzle.
Yeah.
Your brain's melted. Like, you, what are you doing? Like, yeah, I go, send me the last five calls of every day. What's your close rate? They might be closing at 25% their first five and 0% the next five. And it's like, dude, you're looking at this all wrong. Like, just fucking take a chill pill, bro. Work less, make more. You know what I mean? And then use that other time to do follow ups, referrals, less mental load capacity stuff. And then once your tolerance gets higher as it gets more automatic, then increase your workload.
Got it. So you don't go heavy. Like even when they do get into dialing, do you ease them in it if they've never. They don't have the tolerance or the endurance, let's call it for the day.
It sort of depends on the person because, like, some people are like, you know, broncos, you got a break? Yeah, yeah, you gotta fucking smash them. But also, like, outbound, like, you know, it's not. I don't think it's particularly taxing. Especially, like, if you're using some sort of automated system, you know, I mean, you're not, like, sitting there manually punching in and so. But really what you want to do is you want to, like, you want to. Once they've had, like, you probably want to give them a week of just fucking it up with old leads.
Right?
Just make mistakes, do what you want. I don't give a shit.
Right.
Because even a good closer, like HubSpot released a study, and it was 90 days. For a good closer to ramp up, that's about the average. And that's because, like, you're going to be asked questions in which you're not entirely sure of the answer, which makes you, like. And you're gonna bullshit an answer, right? Instead of having the confidence to go, hey, I'm actually kind of new. I don't know that, but I can get you the answer.
Yeah. You would never sound like an idiot. Well, I wouldn't say probably that either. I would just tell them, you know what? That's a great question. Everyone always asks that question. It's going to be answered inside the program. Are you in?
Yeah. Yeah, actually answer. Exactly. That's a weak one. That's a weak one. I don't think you're ready for the answer, to be honest. Yeah, I just want to know how much it costs.
Why do you even want that answer? What made you think.
Yeah, it's not like you're not committed. I don't think you're ready for the program. I'm gonna end it.
Challenge their commitment. Challenge their manhood. Were you even paying attention to what I said earlier? It's not about that. It's all about central methodology.
I swear to God, Aaron.
Well, dude, that's super helpful for. For what it's worth, though. Yeah. We unfortunately ramp people way quicker than that. So, like, when they win, an outbound versus a closer start, and those are two different roles and two different skill sets to learn. At least I found when we started tinkering with both motions. Do you have some sort of like, hey, buddy, you're gonna be a setter for three months, and then you get the transition and you get the good leads as a closer. Do you like it?
I don't believe that. I think it's a myth to set it a closer transition. I don't think that's a real thing.
Sweet.
I've met like I meant like four of them.
Amazing. Because I. It never made sense to me but I didn't know either way if it was.
But I do think that an outbound closer is a good role. So higher commission.
Higher commissions should be paid.
They get just phone numbers and they self set. It's a great way to start somebody one like have a look at the close rates on self sets are astronomically higher.
Right.
Why is that do you think?
It's just a better process, better trust. Also there's a bias there because you're probably only going to set people that you think you're gonna buy.
Right.
So like you're setting to yourself. So there's like an inbuilt protection.
Yeah. So you're not like I didn't really qualify him but the times you know getting. Yeah. To the top of the hour. I'm set them over.
Yeah.
Or you know if you're doing that so it doesn't affect you.
Yep.
Right.
Because there are times where like I just used to like open the floodgates, send the hordes.
Yeah bro, if I was setting you I'd be like Matt's go. Matt will close them. I'll just alley oop, you know.
Yeah.
Into the air. See if he goes up and jumps.
Yeah. I'd be fine with that though to be honest. Like I wouldn't. I wouldn't really care because like just cause they don't have money now doesn't mean they won't have money in like three months. So like my, my follow up's pretty good. So like there was one month I had a 345% close rate. It's just because I closed a ton of people from outbound and so like I had more sales. Yeah.
So you were looking in that period. Yeah.
That makes.
That's cool. You should write a blog post on that. How I closed at 345% highly my best yet.
Yeah. Yeah.
If you don't do that you have a bad mindset. Yeah. So like you know but like if I'm self setting and like I know that I'm just opening floodgates and letting people in. I also really recommend like when you first start out just have the brokest people on your sales call because if there's no pressure, if you know that they're not going to buy you can just go for it like you Might as well. It's like if you get in the room with Mike Tyson, you're getting knocked out, you might as well swing, right? What if you get him? You know what I mean?
But, dude, the, the tendency I found when I set broke leads to the floor. And they know that they're broke is. And let's just assume that it's verified. And then we ran enrichment on it and their app matched the drapes or whatever, and they're broke. Most people just go straight for the kill and actually under discover on at least the teams that I've been in, they're like, hey, let me just cut right to the chase. This is $5,000, blah, blah, blah. And they take that sort of frame. Try the short.
That's people who aren't seeing, they're missing the, the forest through the trees because, like, how much money they spent on sales, training and role play. When, when you've got the opportunity to do it, there's Right, so, like, that, like that is your practice. Your practice is broken. And once you look at it that way, you go, all right, I do, I do. So I don't believe. And I tried to spread this in all the teams. The quality of a call is not dictated by the outcome. They're, they're mutually exclusive. But you can have a brilliant call and they do not buy, and you can stammer over yourself, shit to bed entirely and have them buy. Right? So, like, therefore, every single call, regardless of outcome, should be a representation of who you are. This is your resume. So if your resume is fucking five grand, what do you want to do? Yeah, that's your resume. And so, and how you get better at the process is you learn to, like, do the same thing for everyone always, and it becomes monotonous. And you just learn how to do that. And then that consistency reduces all variables, Right? So you do not have to be as good.
Have you ever, at a certain level in your career, did you just for fun, gave yourself certain handicaps on a call and just to see if you could close them with.
Yeah, I've got recordings of it. I can send you some.
What are some. Yes.
Is that accents? Accents?
Yeah.
When you say that you, that you don't want to do this, what you mean?
So you've closed people with fake accents?
That one, yeah, I've done that, yeah. Why not? What else? That was fun. Then from there, I've done, like, silence, Silence test. Just like said almost nothing.
The whole, the whole call.
That was really interesting. I, I, that was super interesting. Like People just overcame their own objections. That taught me a lot because I remember I had this guy and I go, ah, it's 30 grand. How do you want to proceed? He just goes, man, it's expensive.
I just went, no reaction.
And then it was like a minute. And he goes, but, but I guess the cost of not doing it is pretty high. And it was like silence. And he was like, man, I'm busy at the moment. And he goes, when am I not going to be busy, though? Oh, it. I'm in. That's what he did. I didn't say a word. I believe I was like, yeah, sweet, man. That's just. It was so weird that it worked.
Works so well. That's the. The, like, Sam Ovens, he just wanted. Showed me that for the first time. That was the only maybe tonality or soft skill that he really had as a sales rep was his ability to use silence. Everything other than that, it certainly wasn't going to be enthusiasm.
What I think it is is that this is how I've sort of understood because I tell people to, like, count to eight. If someone doesn't ask you a direct question, you don't have to answer. So once you, like drop something like that, count to eight. I think the old school way of looking at it where it's like, whoever talks first loses. I think that's kind of stupid. But what I think is that people think and talk in real time. And so what you're hearing is them fleshing it out.
Yep.
And so the pauses, you can always tell if there's a but, right? If I go, yeah, it sounds good, but. There's a but coming. So I'll interrupt, be like, why is that?
Right.
But if they go, oh, like, yeah, yeah, it sounds good. It's just a bit expensive. Like they haven't finished the thought yet. So if I go. When you say expensive, you know, I mean, if I. If I interject, that thought is now stopped. And now they're going to focus on why it's expensive. Justification. You know what I mean? Whereas if it could be, yeah, it's expensive. And they might go, but I really need to do this. And if you don't let them finish that thought when it's unclear as to what that next. When it's super clear, it's like a. It's a. Yeah, well, you know, you can just tell, right. That's a negative outcome for me. I'm gonna. I'm gonna stop the thought pattern, right? Because. Yeah.
When do you know? What do you have to Hear or when do you know when to stop discovering and to transition into the ask or the if it's a discovery to recommendation. The recommendation.
So I guess it would be like, I probably do a lot less. I guess it depends what you classify as discovery. Right. So I don't talk about the problem a lot.
Okay.
Because I believe it's somewhat self evident.
Yep.
Right.
Like, like if the marketing is done, they're there, you know, so it's like I just go, like, what do you want? Like, what's the over. Like why are you here? Right? Like what's the overarching that like that will give me a goal. And then the mistake a lot of people make is that they ask specifics about their current processes to do with the goal, not the processes they're using to get to the goal. So I'll use weight loss as an example. They go, oh, so what are you currently doing, you know, for like, what's your, like what are you doing to lose weight?
Right?
Like what's your health and fitness routine?
Right?
Or like, you know, like walk me through your current plan. Okay, I don't care about their current plan. It's of no bearing to me. I want to know what are they doing to lose the extra.
Right?
So it's like, like sales is a good analogy. If, if, if someone goes, hey, yeah, we're looking at, you know, learning some skills to get some more sales training. And if I ask about their current sales methodology, hey, so tell me, like, what do you do for sales now? Like what, like what do you do? What's your, what's your style? I don't care with that at all. But that's of no relevance to me because it will not change the prescription.
Right?
It doesn't change the prescription. It's interesting. It, ultimately it's unproductive. It's unproductive. It causes rabbit holes.
Right?
Like if I'm selling paces offer, like, I don't care about how they're currently doing things. I want to know, like, if they're there to learn how to do X, what are you doing to learn how to do X?
Mm.
It's not what are you doing? It's what are you doing to learn how to.
Right?
It's like, okay, so what are you doing at the moment to like, learn how to make more sales? What are you doing? They go, well, nothing really. Just watching some YouTube.
Yeah.
Why do I listen to you?
Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So like, I want to have that conversation.
It's a much more Narrower conversation on the desire. Yeah. Then you do their current.
Yeah. Well, the current is that the only current I'm worried about is what are they doing to get to the desired.
Yes. Current. Right.
But like not, not the current, like status quo.
Yeah. You don't care what extra. What hasn't worked for you before? Any of that?
No.
Okay. It's really fascinating to me. I wonder if I, if I, from even a marketing perspective, I'm usually trying to spot method or like associations I don't want to lean into. Because if they're like, yeah, I've tried this and it's too close to what I am about to bring up, then I know how I have to change it in framing. But potentially that doesn't matter as much as I think.
Yeah. I, I just always found like it allowed me to narrow down the conversation and make it faster because like it's just more point that makes sense and, and there's. There's less opportunity for rabbit holes that are difficult to get out of. Especially in technical offers.
Yeah. And technical offers. If it's a B2C consumer offer. Do you dig into the pain at all? A lot more.
I think people are far more willing to buy on hope than what they are to like, so the pain, I do it a little bit differently. So what I'll do is I'll go like, okay, what are the problems associated with the way that you're currently looking to get to X? Okay, cool. And then from there we'll go through. And then I go, okay, if we're able to solve X, like, what's the, like what's the point of it?
Right.
You know, and then I like to go down the rabbit hole of like the, like the outcome. But I'm not really worried about the tangible as much. They might say the tangible, like, I want to get to this. I go, yeah, well, maybe. But like why though? Like, what does that mean? And then I'll try and lock down some like more emotional kind of like, you know, like people don't buy a house. They buy a home or they're not buying a kitchen, they're buying a place where their family congregates and like makes memories, you know, and so I go down that route more. And then from there, like I really interested. And then, you know, kind of get them to get out some detail. And then I'll do some associative questions like, so what does it feel like when Instead of like, what would it.
Be like if you future pace the feeling?
Yep. And then from there like, get them to feel it.
Yeah, right.
And then go, okay, well, and then, like, that's that moment. And then from there, I don't go straight into, like, negative outcomes because, like, they'll go into denial if you've done a really good job with the positive. So I go, with what you have in place right now, how close are you to, like, being able to achieve that?
Yeah. And then you have them close their eyes and visualize it with you. Now pretend. And I'm your dream girl now. Kiss me.
Open mouth. Kiss me, you son of a bitch.
That's.
Yeah, so, like, give them, like, an awning to land on, like a James Bond kind of awning, you know? I mean, and then from there I go, okay, but, like, so then it stops the denial. So I'll go, like, how close are you to being able to. Let's just say they want to be able to call their wife and say, hey, we're taking you on a holiday.
Right.
I'll use the phone call as the outcome they're chasing, not the money.
That's a great insight. Yes. You unlock that for them and then give them an aha, too. At the same time.
Yeah. So it's like, hey, man. So, like, with everything you have in place right now, how close are you to be able to pick up the phone and call your wife and say, hey, baby, we're going to Santorini? And they go. He goes, I'm not close. And you go, why not? And you go, this. And I go, what happens if nothing changes and you just keep doing the same thing and 3, 6, 12, 18 months down the track, you're in the same spot you are now. Like, there's very little wiggle room for them after that. And then from there, like, you can talk about that. And then I go through commitment, which is like, okay, so, like, do you feel like you're in a position where it's time to actually do something about this? Make a change? Change. Yes. All right, perfect, man. The way we do might actually work for you. So, like, I try, and. And then it's straight into pitch, and then the pitch should be. The pitch should be short because you need to ride the emotion. And, like, I'm not Tony Robbins. I can't ride that for nine hours. Yeah, I probably got 10 minutes.
I think I told you about that video I have of freaking insane.
Yeah, dude.
Those.
Like, I. I can't do that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I. I can carry it for 10 minutes, and that's it. And so I Want to get to the point where I go boom, boom. And then I go, cool. Like it's like. And then I always pitch it this way. I always go, okay, so the funding required in order for us to put all the resources into you, the X, the Y and the Z so you can achieve this. To feel this essentially is X amount of dollars. How do you want to proceed?
So the. What? I got it. So you state the, you state the reason for the value really quick before. How do you want to proceed?
Smart.
And then like I use open ended. I don't use like option closes. I think option closes. Work on dumb people and lay downs.
Yeah, bro. Yeah, I like that.
Right?
Yeah. And so tie down a cheap tie down.
Yeah, it's like red, green, yellow, blue, up, down, Left, right, Visa, MasterCard. Like, it'll work on people who are going to buy. But you know, people still have an option of maybe just because you didn't present it doesn't mean it's not there. And so I like open ended because then it stops. Combative. Stops of being combative. Because there's no.
No. Yeah. Between my $150 a month plan and my $50 a month plan, which one do you think you're going to go forward with today? Yeah, and they're like, well, see option.
C, sir, the guy down the road. So. So yeah, I like, I like doing it that way. I think like it's, you know, in sales, the fastest way between two points is not always a straight line. You know, it's like you can fall off a cliff as fast. Walking down the steps would be slower, but like you're definitely going to get there, you know? So like it's like small steps, just small calculated steps, you know what I mean? That's an important way to do it. And it's just a process. Like anyone could be good sales, to be honest. Like, it's.
So you disagree with Jordan Belfort and straight line sales methodology then?
No, I think straight line is a really great way for beginner sales reps to sell because it's super simple. I think like there are people who like, there's no real wrong sales style. I don't think like there's. And there's no right. There is like what works for the individual. I think what people don't realize is that your natural demeanor will play a huge role in what type of sales you should be doing. So for me, like, I'm super forthright, so something really neutral leaned out. Like an EPQ is fantastic for me because I'm so forthright that I need like something to soften it. So if I go like, if I say like, like, hey Nick, it looks like you're looking to, you know, hey Nick, it's just mad. It looks like you're looking to get some skills, get better at sales.
Right?
It's like super. It's a bit, a bit much. If I go, hey Nick, it's just Matt from xyz, it looks like you're possibly looking to get better at sales. Is that right? It's a very similar sentence but the possibly softens it. But if I'm like a leaned out, hey Nick, it's just Matt from xyz. It looks like you're possibly looking to get better at sales. Is that right? If I remove the possibly, hey Nick, it's just Matt from xyz. It looks like you're looking to get better at sales. Is that right? It's way better. Because the like so your demeanor, like your, your intention.
You're right, you're right. The softener of the assumption. Adding the assumption versus taking the assumption out.
Yeah.
So like the, the intent of the question is like what I want them to feel and that's going to be dictated by the like the intonation, the word choice and your demeanor. And so you have to match them. If you've got real leaned out people, get them to use assumptive language. If you've got really forthright people, get them to use more leaned out language.
It's like it reminds me of the Weeknd. The Weeknd can pretty much sing anything extremely violent. Or the Whisper song by the Yin Yang Twins.
Yeah, that's true. You know, like, you know, and so it's like you've sort of got to play that and I think if you, if you don't realize that, you know, then you sort of, you're gonna steer people the wrong way. And so you know, there's a lot of like low hanging fruit easy shit that people can do to get better at that kind of stuff though.
Interesting. So dude, switching gears a little bit now back to YouTube and organic.
Yeah.
The advice that you gave me was super, super good. My team loved it. As far as the actual journey that it took you to get to now, like what were some of the, the tipping points along the way? That, that after that it got a whole lot easier for you. And maybe not easier is the right word, but the tipping points that gave you an aha moment in the content journey.
Yeah.
There's a guy called Jesse Rogers. He has A. I'll do an intro with you. He's. He has a channel called Casper SMC. He's like a trading coach, but he's cracked YouTube. Like, he understands it really well. And I remember I was helping him out with some revenue stuff and I was like, I'm struggling with YouTube, you know what I mean? Could you help me out a little bit? And he was like, yeah, man, but like, you just gotta try harder. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, he goes, you just gotta like, it's like with anything, dude. Like, you know, you know how to problem solve, you know how to look at things. And he sort of sat down and he gave me. Was like, we went through my content. Then I went through his content. I just, I went through his content and studied what he was doing. I was like, ah, I kind of see what's happening here. And like, like, YouTube is like anything where. So, you know, the. It's like, what are they prioritizing? And what, what does YouTube want from you? Because that's what you. You need to give them what they want. And what they want is they want audience retention.
Yeah.
And people staying on platform that like, like, that's it. So. And then you got to get their attention. So it's like, I need to split test thumbnails. Like, I have to do that and I need to split. Test my headlines.
Right.
How do you split test thumbnails? Typically one or two. A B, abcd.
It's just a B. Usually. I think three would. I think when I get. When you get bigger, I think three would be better, I think. But I think, like, like there'd be thresholds, you know what I mean? But the size channel I have, like, I think two is probably fine. Then from there, like, you've got to sort of. You've got to pay attention to the content that hits.
Right.
And pay attention to the content that maybe didn't hit but had great retention.
Right.
And then pay attention to the content that gained audience.
Right.
So because they're all different. And so the stuff that your audience loves might not gain audience. Yeah, the stuff that gains audience your audience might not love.
Right.
So you kind of need to do a little bit of column, a little bit of column B, and then it's about, like, it's. The value proposition has to be said super early. And the. There's like a bunch of different styles of opener, and then you kind of find what works for you. But it's like that. I think a lot of people, you know, like, they're used to like the intros and stuff like that. Whereas really it's like this is what you're going to learn in this video. It's just, you know, like we're educators, right? So it's like the value proposition is what can I teach you? And then it's why should you learn from me? It's like, hey, in this video I'm going to teach you the five things that you need to do in order to make sure that your intention is brought across. I'm going to be taking through five tonality cues that a salesperson of any level can make. And the reason why you should listen to me is because I've X. All right, cool. Let's get straight into it.
So you're using a lot of like what I would call clarity hooks. Like they're very, they're very clear and straightforward. That's not click baity or hooky so to speak, but it just speaks right to the nature. You're not doing any Mr. B style quick cuts or anything?
No, because I'm not Mr. Beast. Like I'm an, I'm an edge. Like you aren't like, you know, as much as I try to be right and also like I have to realize like my content is fairly nuanced and what success for me is not success for other people. And like I like, if I look at the back end of my YouTube, it is extremely targeted. It is all like US, UK, Australia and everyone's like between the ages of 25 and 50 and like that's it. So my 15,000 subs compared to like somebody else's is probably the equivalent of a hundred thousand subs.
Yeah.
Because I don't have anyone from Turkey, India and Armenia or whatever.
Right. CPM for your audience.
Yeah, like my, like it's actually like my, the revenue thing that they give you like that like the ads revenue, right. Is outrageously high. Like it's 54 CPM. The usual is like 2, 3.
So they, your, your RPM, your revenue per milli or revenue per thousand is 54.
It's 52.95.
Okay, so that means YouTube is marking it up though. Like if I bought on your channel, if you turned off monetization, I could place in stream ads. They would charge me more than that.
Yeah. Oh dude, like my shit, it's like. Yeah, so like my audience is so targeted and so high quality because it's all US UK, it's like 98 male.
Right.
So like if you're like Dollar Shaver Club or you know, whatever. Like I'm a great, you know, manscape, manscape reaches out to me like once a week.
Right. You remove people from third world countries too. You say this channel isn't for you.
No, I, I don't, I, I am. But like, I just, I just, my, my, my vernacular is not appetizing to someone who's not native English speaking.
Yeah. I don't think I'm probably many people's cup of tea who don't speak out of the big five, at least English speaking countries.
Maybe that's a good thing. You know, it's fine. Like, it's. Because what you're going for is like, you know, depending on what the audience is like, you know, it's like I'm going for. There's a small amount of people that could pay me a lot of money. A lot of people paying you a small amount of money is different. Now I do have my low ticket thing, but like, I've built enough up over the years to where like, you know, I can sort of do that. But I think it was like once I realized, like, you know, I, the more I post, the better it gets. Like if, if I did like two weeks of posting every day and my fucking audience like doubled for YouTube.
Yeah.
Like it was significant increase.
Yeah.
Right.
So I think ideally if I was going to go like hard in the, hard to harden the paint, I would do like five long form a week and like probably 10 short form.
How much time do you spend between these categories when thinking about posting on YouTube? The actual keywords and the title of it, the actual first five seconds, the actual content of what you're going to be talking about.
Yeah. So a lot of the time I'll look at what's hit and then if there's a component of that that I think I can extract out, then I'll go into more detail if there's a short, like, because I do a podcast as well. Right. And I release the podcast as long form and then we put that into shorts. If one of the shorts has hit, I'll do a specific video on that topic because I know the audience is there for it. And you also, in shorts you can link to videos, right. So you can like link to like related content. And so I do that and then, and then I have an editor as well. His name is Rhetic. And he also does like, he does like my, he posts for me, he does the thumbnails and split testing, all that kind of stuff. And he also will come back with like, hey, these are some subjects that I know will hit. And he's, he's really good. Like he's been doing it for a while. He manages some like decent sized channels, right. I send him referrals and he gives me extra edits and he's editing with VSL for me at the moment, stuff like that. But he's great. I can do an intro with him. He's like fucking 20.
I would actually love that. If nothing else, I, I would love to have our, our team or our guy who's in that position learn from him and how he goes about it because.
Yeah, because what we can do. You want to look for outliers. So if you go around to channels with like similar ish fan bases or like, you know, similar. Not even like similar content but the same audience, right. You look for outlier videos. So you go to the videos and you say like which ones really hit? You know what I mean? And then from there you have look at the idea and the concept behind it and then you go okay, perfect. Is it old? Is it new? If it's old, it might just be because it's old, you know. And then from there just go, okay, cool. That idea is a proven idea. So now what I'll do is I'll take that idea and I'll do my own version of it. And then it's like with thumbnails, like you know, your face needs to be in it with an open mouth. Open mouth is like yeah, just like.
Right?
Open mouth is proven higher. It's a higher click through rate.
Right?
Yep.
You know like those ones, right?
For sure. Yeah, yeah, I do that. I'll do that one every time.
Yeah. But like there's just certain things, you know, that kind of work and then like lower production value is probably working, you know, a little bit better right now. But then just making sure there are some visual elements like in like ins and outs and stuff like that just to make it thing, you know. And then try and get a tight edit. I think that is punchy. That's like over 10 minutes.
Cool.
You know, I think like 14 minutes is a good marker.
Yeah.
Because if you can get your average, your average like six to seven minutes, that'd be really good.
You know, that's what I'm trying to get better at is just.
And then if you watch the audience retention right at the beginning, if it drops off really quickly, then you need to work on like. Because all my videos that have hit the audience retentions like real. It's real slow and they. Because they want that, you know, and then they keep pushing it out, pushing it out, pushing out. And then you'll see in the Alex you go like that and you know, because they're punching it out to more people.
Interesting. Dude, that's all fascinating and that's. I actually didn't know there was retention curves for individual videos. That's how, that's how illiterate I am with YouTube Organic Growth Analytics.
It's fun to like get in the back end, just start like having a look at what's working, what's not. Like you, like you will figure if you go in the back end of it, you'll figure it out quickly because you can see the data. Like there is, there is so much data on every video. There is like unique viewers, returning viewers, subscribers gained. Like it's got all your, like it's got your impressions, it's got your click through rate, all that kind of stuff. Like for a YouTube to go viral, to go proper viral, it needs to have a 30% click through rate.
Right.
With an audience retention of over 10 minutes.
That makes sense.
Right?
30%, extremely difficult to get.
Yeah. Then by that definition I've never had an ad go viral because I. 15% click through is the highest I've ever seen.
Which is insane.
Yeah. Which is absolutely insane for insane.
Yeah. Also I would highly recommend not putting any paid towards your YouTube.
Real quickly. Why is that? Because I would think the opposite.
Nah, because the audience retention would be terrible.
Got it. Which would destroy the organic growth of it. Yes, potentially.
So like I've tried it a few times. I think it's like if you have a piece of content that you want to promote.
Right.
Like I don't think it's a bad thing, you know what I mean? Like to do it but. And you can do things to try and gain subscribers and stuff like that. But like YouTube content, like the organic YouTube, you know what I mean? If you're not doing that YouTube advertising, it is an ungamable system.
Yeah.
Meritocracy.
Push them to funnel. That's like the only thing I know how to do. I've never like you said, made that work where it's subscriber growth.
What I recommend is like the description have end screen videos.
Right.
But like the description should try and keep them internal to YouTube.
Okay.
Right.
So don't always just foster because like it's just more point that makes sense and there's, there's less opportunity for rabbit holes that are difficult to get out of especially in technical offers.
Yeah. And Technical offers. If it's a B2C consumer offer. Do you dig into the pain at all? A lot more.
I like to, I think people are far more willing to buy on hope than what they are to like anything.
I know how to do. I've never like you said, made that work where it's subscriber growth.
What I recommend is like the description have end screen videos.
Right.
But like the description should try and keep them internal to YouTube.
Okay.
Right.
So don't always just link out to a funnel.
That makes native sense. Yeah.
And then have a, A, a video that is like a YouTube VSL. That is your end screen video. That one. No. So the, the, the pain, I, I do it a little bit differently. So what I'll do is I'll go like, okay, like what are the problems associated with the way that you're currently looking to get to X? Okay, cool. And then from there we'll go through. And then I go, okay, if we're able to link sound, everything.
Right.
That's smart.
So you know what I mean? You kind of do it solve X. Like what's the, like, what's the point of it?
Right.
You know, and I like to go down the rabbit hole of like that's smart.
I like that a lot. That's a good way to get around it. Especially if you have good retention of that. Then you can retain into a good sales motion piece. Oh, hey. Hi. Hello.
And oh, you there. The like the outcome. But I'm not really worried about the tangible as much. They might say the tangible. Like I want to get to this. I go, yeah, well maybe. But like why though? Like what does that mean? And then I'll try and lock down some like more emotional they are.
Yeah.
You're frozen in a funky spot.
Was it. Look, it'll look great. I'll use it for the thumbnail. There's a lot of screen caps. I can get out of here.
Nice. I love it. And then I, I think like, you know, it's a pretty ungainable system. You know, I mean but like you just kind of. It's like meritocracy. It's really interesting. And you look at what hits and what doesn't. Like I can tell if I talk about like objection. Handling it does well if I talk, you know, there's just certain ones that you know are just gonna hit and so kind of like, you know, like people don't buy a house, they buy a home.
Yeah, right.
They're not buying a kitchen, they're buying a place. Where their family congregates and like makes memories, you know. And so I go down that route more and then from there, like I really interested. And then, you know, kind of get them to get out some detail and then I'll do some associative questions, like, so what does it feel like when instead of like, what would it be.
Like if you future pace of the feeling?
Yep, just kind of doing that and then consistency and I think, yeah, doing lives and that kind of shit, it all helps.
But yeah, sweet. Do last question, because I know we're over. What Pokemon would you start with if you had Pokemon? Yellow, blue or red version if you played those games?
So I didn't play the games much at all.
So you don't know. You just have the cards and that's it?
Yeah, bro.
Like I was Halo. And then from there, like get them to feel it.
Yeah, right.
And then go, okay, Halo, dang. I'll bet you I'll put you in blood gouge, bro. And I'll fuck you up, right? Death Match. And I'll snipe you the fuck out of you. My wife. My wife will. And then like, that's that moment. And then from there I. I don't go straight into like negative outcomes because like, they'll go into denial if you've done a really good job with the positive. So I go with what you have in place right now. How close are you to like being able to achieve that?
Yeah. And then you have them close their eyes and visualize it with you. Now pretend I'm your dream girl. Now kiss me.
Played all the games. Pokemon, Snap, the whole thing. I sort of didn't. But yeah, I'm into the cards though. I like rare things. You know what I mean?
Yeah, you got the blastoise, the Charizard.
This is a cool one. This is a. You ever see one of them.
Pull it back? No, I haven't.
That's a Poncho Pikachu.
Where'd you find it?
So this is like it was exactly open mouth, kiss me, you son of a bitch.
Yeah.
So like given my particular run that came out in like 2016 in. In Japan. And like a single playing card from a deck is worth about eight grand. Like an awning to land on like a James Bond kind of awning, you know what I mean? And then from there I go, okay, but like, so then it stops the denial. So I'll go like. Or how close are you to being able to? And let's just say they want to be able to. Like Call their wife and say, hey, we're taking you on a holiday.
Right.
I'll use the phone call as the outcome they're chasing, not the money.
That's a great insight.
Yes.
You see one. Lock that for them and then give them an aha, too, at the same time.
Yeah. So it's like, hey, man. So, like, with everything you have in place right now, one of the playing cards, like, the number 1 1, is like the Rayquaza one.
Right.
Where it's like one of the cards and PSA 10, it's worth, like, 35,000. And then there's Mario and Luigi ones.
Like.
Like, the Pikachu ones are crazy. There's like, 850 Pikachu cards. Wow. That's just in English. That's.
That is nuts. It's been, I guess, 30 years of them doing these cards. Well, yeah. Next time I'm home, I'll look through my card collection. I'll. I'll send you my rares.
How close are you to be able to pick up the phone and call your wife and say, hey, baby, we're going to Santorini? And they go. He goes, I'm not close. And you go, why not? And you go, this? And I go, what happens if nothing changes? And you just keep doing the same thing? And 3, 6, 12, 18 months down the track, you're in the same spot you are now.
Like, there's a very one to add to your collection. Yeah, you can have it. Probably won't be super rare. Yeah. But I want to do that now. You've been good to me, dude, so thank you, dude. Thank you for coming on. I hope we get to do this more often. And I will see y' all later, my dude. Actually, actual last thing, my daughter has watched so much YouTube.
Very little wiggle, like, wiggle room for them after that. And then from there, like, you can talk about that.
And then I go now where she ends. Every single YouTube video that she's, like, making, you know, if I film her, she goes, like. And subscribe. And then she cuts it.
Keep doing the same thing. And 3, 6, 12, 18 months down the track, you're in the same spot you are now. Like, there's very little wiggle, like, wiggle room for them after that. And then from there, like, you can talk about that. And then I go through commitment, which is like, okay, so do you feel like you're in a position where it's time to actually do something about this, make a change? Yes. All right. Perfect, man. The way we do might actually work for you. And then it's straight into pitch. And then the pitch should be short because you need to ride the emotion, and I'm not.
