Tech x Hollywood Special: Human Ventures GP Heather Hartnett x Film Producer Siena Oberman

All right. Hello everyone, and welcome back to Seed to Harvest. I'm really excited to be joined by 2 of my favorite New York ladies, Heather Harnett, the founding partner of Human Ventures, a startup studio and venture firm investing in wellness and digital health, and backed by renowned investors including Ray Dalio of Bridgewater, David Solomon of Goldman Sachs, and James Murdoch. She's a founding member of Transact Global, which is how we met, which is the largest peer-led group of female fund managers with over $1 billion in assets under management represented there. A graduate of the Kauffman Fellowship Program, she's been listed as one of the 50 most influential women in America by Hearst Digital Media Publications, is a frequent speaker at TechCrunch Disrupt, and is a regular contributor to Forbes, where she covers a range of venture capital topics. She's also an investor in our fund behind Genius Ventures. And Sienna Overman, the founder of Artemis Pictures, a film production company focusing on stylistically bold independent films and female-driven stories. She was named in Variety Top 10 Producers to Watch in 2021 and Diversity in Con Top 10 Female Filmmakers to Watch in 2019. She's had feature films in TIFF, Berlinale, Tribeca, Telluride, and Venice. Her films have been acquired by companies such as A24, IFC, Screen Media, Universal, Lionsgate, Hulu, and E! One. Before Artemis. Sienna was a development executive at Yale Productions. Prior to producing, Sienna went to USC and studied business and cinema. So to kick us off, Sienna, I would love to hear what your walkout song to that would be, because that is a long list of accomplishments.

I don't know, maybe Girls on Fire, just, just coming off the bio. But otherwise, I'd probably like something more calm, like Explosions in the Sky, just typing on my computer day to day. I love that.

Heather, what about you?

Oh gosh. I don't know. That's just a hard one for me to say. I can't, I'm not as good as you, Sienna, on the spot, but I am really honored to be here with both of you two being such rock stars in your fields.

Amazing. So Heather, you're a contributing editor for Forbes and I absolutely adore your writing. I really appreciated a recent article that you wrote on starting a venture firm versus joining a venture fund. And it seems all 3 of us have chosen the independent path. And for me, it's been incredibly hard, but a great continuous learning journey and so rewarding. So I'm curious, why did both of you choose to go independent? And Heather, I'd love to start out with you since this is a subject that we've discussed at length in your Forbes article. Yeah, excuse me.

Yeah, I think that, you know, I've always been really attracted to the founder mentality. So my, I came from a long line of entrepreneurs and Founding something or, you know, starting your own business was just kind of what we thought as Hartnets were supposed to do. It wasn't what job can you get, it was what value can you, can you create? And so, so the founding element has always been something that's interesting to me, not because, not because I chose it, 'cause it's much harder, I think, but mostly because I feel that whatever I'm interested in or I feel that I have a unique insight in, I'm not always the commercial option to go and get a job in that, right? I had a very unique background and people say they have a unique background to get into venture, but really I come from completely different roots. And so I think it's kind of born out of opportunity when you found something. And I was fortunate enough to meet my business partner, Joe Marchese, about 12 years ago, and we really hit it off in a lot of our concepts on how we're finding founders, what resonated with us, how to build a network, how to build value for your network. And so it was a no-brainer to start Human Ventures in, in 2015, um, in New York. And, you know, I didn't even set out to build a venture fund at that point in time. We were building companies. And then as the companies started to, to work and started to get some traction, we needed to have more financing. And it's, it's constantly, I think any founder or builder, you're not thinking, you're not setting out to build something for the sake of building it. It kind of happens to you. And, um, I think that's the difference between trying to get a job and Absolutely.

I love that perspective. Sienna, I would love to hear about your journey and why you chose to go independent as well.

Yeah, it's, it's a crazy question and I ask myself a lot of the time because it's, it's an insane path, as I'm sure you guys both know. And it's so inspiring meeting people such as yourself who have done it because I, I think when I was in college and looking into jobs, I wasn't even really considering starting a production company. And then just a few years afterwards, after I graduated, having a job and working for different producers, I ended up doing it. But it was kind of a backwards journey where I had done, you know, different gigs working for producers. And then I was just so passionate across different filmmakers and scripts that I had found that other producers weren't willing to make that I believed in 100%. And I had said, you know, let me go find all of the money and figure out the cast and find a way to ha—

make it happen.

And they're like, nah, that's It's, it's not going to happen. And then within 9 months of leaving my last job, I had done 3 films with filmmakers that I really liked. And leaving the job, I was like, let me just give it a year of trying to go independent and see what happens. And I think because I was so driven and almost questioning if it was even possible, I worked crazy hard to get it done. And then I, I realized that doing projects you love with people you believe in, there's just like, You know, so much more energy, at least for me personally, that comes with that. And that's what drives me. And so it, it wasn't really out of choice, it was more out of nature. And I, I think like the founder path is for certain people and not for certain people. So it's almost like when I was in film school, some people were like, I wanna be Steven Spielberg versus other people were like, oh, I really wanna tell these stories that haven't gotten made and I have this idea and this idea. So I think it's more just like, it's not about the title. It's about the action of, do you want to see certain things happen? And unless someone else is going to make it happen, then you have to make it happen. So.

I love that. And I would love to hear about what the average day in the life looks like for both of you. I know no day is the same in the life of an entrepreneur, but I thought I'd share with our audience this quote I found from an earlier interview of Sienna's. When I watched her in 2019 on the set of the 4th film, The Birthday Cake, an indie mob picture set in Brooklyn that was released this month. She was nimbly juggling a dozen tasks at once, including a bulky financier from South America, a set overcrowded with hangers-on and Val Kilmer's personal documentary crew, an unexpected delay in Paul Sorviano's arrival, conked out Wi-Fi, and a crew member who wasn't up for the job. I asked her if this was a typical day on set. She said, there is no typical day. For me, the priority is what's the biggest emergency. So Sienna, does this still ring true now? And what are some of the day-to-day things that you do as a producer?

It does ring true. I mean, it's funny thinking of that day because, um, the writer of that is Boris, who works with the LA Times, and he, he saw me in different phases. He saw me in development, he saw me in pre-production and production, and he comes from a non-film background, so he was just trying to understand what was going on. And that day was, absolute insanity. I think pre-production and production are much more intense while we're actually shooting versus at home or in an office developing scripts and doing meetings is much calmer, but it's, it's still applicable either way. So right now I'm in a development and post-production phase, so it's mostly reading scripts, meeting with writer-directors, giving notes, doing general meetings, raising financing, which you guys probably know a lot more about than me, but It's, it's all pretty random and unpredictable, but I was pleasantly surprised to hear that it's the same for you guys. So it's, it's all shared pain. What about you, Heather?

You know, I, I kind of subscribe to the, the feeling of monotony is a killer of creativity. So I really tried to personally maintain some sort of routine, but in my work life, I love mixing things up and, you know, I work with founders. I get to meet really incredible people who are investors. We get to go to conferences and do thought leadership events. We get to meet other, you know, investors. And I mean, there's no other profession I think that allows you to be such a people person. And it's just my absolute favorite thing. So my day is really usually structured around the people that I'm meeting. And that's, that is just my joy. Like that's where I get my energy is from other people. And so, or from, you know, that energy in that environment, other people who are excited. So, You know, there is no typical day, but, um, but I, but I love the fact that when you, when you feel a little bit stuck or you have a blockage or you're not being creative, like my husband and I say, break the pattern, like break the pattern. If you're in, you know, if you're taking too many one type of meetings and you have to do something else and you can't, you can't get there, then go to a coffee shop, go somewhere else, go, you know, change your surroundings or your settings or something. Because I, yeah. Mediocrity or Monotony is really a killer of creativity.

I definitely subscribe to that belief, especially like in the period of fundraising. So at the core, in both production and venture capital, you're connecting people, raising money, and deploying resources to worthwhile projects. So both producers and venture capitalists play a role in connecting, nurturing, using both their right and left brains, and often come from very different backgrounds. And I'm a bit more familiar with The venture way of doing things. So I'd love to hear from you, Sienna, about what the process of fundraising for and selecting a project looks like. So it sounds like for you it's development, production, and post-production. So which comes first? Are you doing them in tandem? Curious to hear more about the order of operations.

It's a good question. So in general, I'm usually managing between 3 to 5 companies at a time that are all in different stages, and then projects, I would say, 5 to 10 projects, and some of them, if they're further along in the development stage to where there's capital or talent attached to it, then it will be more of an LLC, which could be single ownership or partnership, or sometimes the financier owns the company and then I'm just hired to service it. But in, in general, the financing for movies looks like putting a package together. So first selecting the script and filmmaker, which usually I, I work with writer-directors. And then we have to go out and try and get talent attached. It's probably similar in venture of building your team and building a pitch deck. And, and then once you have enough elements and a strong enough pitch and a team lined up, then you go out and start pitching people. And I don't know if there's projections in the same way, but we get sales estimates based on the package that we've built, which then can kind of give investors an idea of what the movie's likely to make from third-party experts. And, um, you know, yeah, I, I think that's kind of the overview. I could go more into detail, but is it similar in venture where you get projections on a company and then you get either private equity or established financiers, or how does it work?

There's a lot of, there's a lot of differences, but there's a lot of similarities too. I wanted to just ask first before we go on to venture, when an investor is investing in one of your companies, What is the expected return? Is it financial?

Is it impact?

Is it, what are you selling in terms of the, the return on the investment?

Yeah, it's a really good question. So I think from a financial perspective, personally, I think it, you have to have a smart financial model to approach any investor. I, I don't, I think that's why I've been able to make films consistently is smart models and the return on investment. The starting base is $120,000 to $130,000 if the film even reaches profits. And then after that, you go into a split net profit share. But I guess film can be fun for either high net worth individuals or really smart film companies that used to be film executives that have built funds because you can make crazy returns on investment. So one director I'm working with, he made a movie for a million, it made $102 million in the box office. But getting that hit, right, which has a much higher return on investment in a quicker period than maybe other industries is very hard to do successfully. And then there's also like certain projects are more socially driven. Like we have one that's about child abuse prevention, one that's about suicide prevention, and then others are more just, hey, this is like a popcorn commercial movie. It's probably a safe thing to bet on.

Yeah. So there, there are a lot of parallels there too. So especially to early-stage venture capital, right? So it's different from private equity. Early-stage venture, you're really investing in a big idea, a big market where that market could be even more expanded, but most importantly, the team. So just what you were talking about, you're finding an incredible founder who is charismatic, who you think can lead a team, who can sell a vision, who can execute fast, and then you are investing into a market that you think has potential to expand and you're investing ahead of the public markets, right? You're investing ahead of the paradigm shift or the zeitgeist. So you really have to kind of be a forward-thinking investor to be able to grasp what the founder, where the founder wants to go. And then, so there are 2 components to fundraising in venture. One is fundraising as a fund manager yourself. We don't have the money inherently. You typically will raise from what's called limited partners and you raise from high net worth individuals or institutions, family offices, a lot of the same demographic. But I think across the board, fundraising for me, boils down to one conviction. You have to have conviction in what you're selling. It's really, it's a, it's a product that you're selling, right? When you're fundraising. So do you have that conviction? What got you there? So you're sharing all of the diligence and the memos and the research and the customer validation that got you to conviction. You're selling that and that has to come through. And then your energy and enthusiasm and why your kind of station in the market has a unique insight or a unique view that other people don't have. So we're really selling that arbitrage opportunity that I see something that other people don't, and I also have access to other people, something that other people don't. So you should bet on me to make you money. And it's absolutely a, you know, a market, a returns-driven market. And we, you know, venture has traditionally been a way that you can, just like you said, there's, you have to, You have to make a lot of investments to see those outliers, but the outliers do have the potential to be massive because venture capital is such a catalyst for growth and technology has been such a catalyst for companies that could grow, that have high, high margin businesses and it can really scale and we're seeing that. And what I also love about the venture space is just, it breeds, you know, it attracts people who love innovation and who think really big.

Yeah. And, and speaking of fundraising, I'm curious as you've progressed in your respective careers, how your fundraising strategies have shifted over time. So Sienna, I would love for you to kick us off with maybe how your fundraising strategy has shifted.

Definitely. I think we learn from our mistakes, right? And, uh, I, I earlier on I was fundraising smaller amounts of money at a time because the project's budgets were smaller. So anywhere from $50,000 to a couple hundred thousand. And then there's, there's private individuals, which would be more likely to do that scenario. And then there's established film financiers that like to bet on things that are set to succeed in the market, in which case you're getting one check from a company. So I shifted from doing, you know, high net worth individuals to trying to just partner with a financier who then handles that. And they're, they're probably similar.

Does that require like a more established track record to be able to go out? Yeah. So it's similar in venture where it's like you usually start raising from like high net worth individuals and then gravitate towards like more established financiers because you get a bit more concentration of working with folks, which can be, um, you know, helpful when you're making decisions quickly.

Yeah, that definitely makes sense. But I think there's some projects that fit into the model that the more established film financiers would do. And then there's other stuff that as a producer, you find it and love it and then have to kind of scrap it together from whatever investors you can get. So still both, but also like paying more attention to market trends and sales and what's doing well than before. I feel like every year I learn more of what's going to sell well and not. Yeah.

So how, how has that filter changed for you as you've been like fundraising?

I think, you know, things that are cast-driven and more in the genre space, which is thriller, action, horror, are much safer bets. So I would say before I was doing maybe like 20% more character-driven dramas and artistic pieces and like, sorry, 80% of those, 20% of like the thriller horror action. And then now I've switched to do like 80% of things that I think will perform commercially well, but still have an artistic edge. And then 20% that are a little more risky.

Cool. Yeah, it's super interesting. It sounds similar to how we think about portfolio construction in venture with either like the riskier, wackier out-there bets versus some of the consensus ones who are backed by like established Venture firm. So Heather, I would love to hear more about how your fundraising strategy has shifted over the different, both the venture studio, because Human started as that, and then also as you look to, you know, raise, continue building Human as a venture firm.

Yeah, I think it's important to understand who your buyer is. And, you know, in the beginning, I just think there's more sources of capital now that are coming into to fund projects. I mean, it sounds like that's the case with you too, Sienna. It's just a more established market. People are now seeing that taking that, using that risk capital in the beginning to make those bets are paying off. And then in doing that, you know, and unlocking more capital, you have more opportunity for innovation and it kind of compounds on itself. And, you know, several people have made their wealth through the venture and startup ecosystem or technology ecosystem. So, Something that's changed for us here in New York City are just more people who understand the mechanics of that. And it's not a traditional private equity investment or, you know, what traditional finance would have, but it's, it's, you know, there's more builders who have created that wealth and understand that putting money to work in the beginning, there's going to be a lot of losses there. You know, a lot of startups fail, but you're also investing in an ecosystem and you're building that flywheel effect. So that's really important. So from when we started until now, I think a big differentiation is just We have a brand in market, we have credibility, we have, you know, our reputation. We've now had a, we have companies that we backed in the beginning that now have become what was called the unicorn status, you know, over a billion dollars in valuation. And so once you start to show people that what you said is going to come true, they don't have to take as big of a leap on you because you can, you have to show that you can consistently perform that. That's when fundraising gets really fun because You just constantly have to be true to what you're saying and then deliver, you know, under-promise and over-deliver, and you build up that reputation. But I really do think it's time, and that's what a lot of people wanna push. They're just like, it needs to happen now. And I think that, that just, that credibility and experience comes over time. So, um, so that's, it builds on itself. And, you know, I think another, you know, another thing that I learned is just when you're thinking about your buyer, where's their risk spectrum? Where's their risk tolerance? And, you know, what are their incentives? And if you're an institutional LP and you, and you, why would you take a bet on somebody who's less established? Or if you're a family office, you are thinking about, you want to be more nimble and you want to have more access to those deals and you want to get into the new managers because you think that there's going to be more opportunity for return in those. So you're, you're a little bit more scrappy. So you just have to know who your buyer is. And I think that took me a while to understand the ecosystem as well.

Yeah, I like a lot about what you said, underpromise, overdeliver, because I think this is a thing for producers as well, especially earlier on. And something that I've learned is like, you don't want to overpromise just to get money. It'd be way better, especially maintaining those relationships, um, and, and having to do meetings for years with them, to underpromise and overdeliver. So I think like, I tend to be very like Almost like downplayed and chill now when I'm raising money versus earlier on. I remember this other producer tried telling me that I wouldn't be able to raise money or produce unless I was like overselling something, and that just didn't feel authentic.

I think that's a really good point. Yeah, it's a good point. It's also the tactics that have traditionally worked for, you know, men in these industries don't necessarily fit. You have to understand how you authentically sell as yourself because people understand if you're not true to who you are, it's just show so obviously. So I think that's a really great point, Sienna, and to really just understand, again, if you have conviction in what you're doing and you sell that and the reasons why, there's no hype, there's no, you know, faking it until you make it.

Yeah, I love that, Heather. I feel like it's a lot about going on the fundraising journey for me was a journey of self-discovery. You take like 1,700 meetings and you're meeting with all these LPs and you're telling them about your big vision and your motivation. And your compelling why, and it has to be very like on point to what you actually feel or else it's gonna be like a pretty, it, it's just like not gonna come across as authentic. And I feel like people have a much higher filter for authenticity than they used to. Yeah, agreed.

I mean, I was just looking at your tweet, I think earlier, Paige, about, oh yeah, the imposter syndrome and that gap. Uh, oh, maybe you can say what you were talking about, the experience. Yeah, sure.

Yeah, so I was talking about this with my coach because I was feeling like a bit of imposter syndrome. And then as I was having this conversation, it was, it came up of like true, true confidence comes from experience. Like you were saying, it takes a long time for investments or movies like to become, you know, to have that like feedback on your decision. And so it can feel a bit uncomfortable in the interim, but just like having the patience. And not expecting to have a level of confidence that doesn't align with your level of experience has made the process seem much more exciting to me. And focusing on the, it, it's easier to like focus on the craft when you're not as like worried about the outcome of things. And I think hopefully it'll lead to a better future.

The rub is for ambitious people, which I'm sure all 3 of us are, you're always, there's always a new normal, there's always a new mountain to climb. So you're always feeling that gap, but I always say that imposter syndrome is You know, it's actually a good— it's a, it's a sign that you're— it's a good thing, you know, you love growth.

Yeah, exactly. I was talking to someone and I was like, yeah, if they— if you didn't feel that, like, you'd be in the wrong room.

I was—

and I was like, oh yeah, that's, that's a good point. Like, I kind of want to always feel some element of that so I know that there's room to grow.

Yeah, I like that a lot. I feel like it's, it's super true to if you're taking an independent path as well because you're responsible for your own growth and Also, I don't know about venture, but for film, like, it's like I'll get used to one budget level or one challenge of a project. And then if I'm continuing growing, it means I'm doing something I don't know or I haven't done before. And so it's just this constant, like, ebb and flow of discomfort and growth and excitement. But like what you're saying with imposter syndrome, it's, you're like signed up to do something that you haven't done before. So it's a little natural with it, but I really like your guys' positive spin on it.

Mm-hmm.

Because I think that probably pushes a lot of people away from doing it and, and it's self-doubt, but it's, it's really just a part of the process.

Yeah, it, yeah, the patience piece has been a big part of my learning from this year. I'm like, all right, we got 10 years to see how this plays out. So, you know, strap in for the ride. And on that, so Sienna, what's one thing you think that any aspiring filmmaker can do to set themselves up for career success, even if they're still in school or like on the younger side?

There's so many things. I, I think just like developing their knowledge the best that they can of film in general. So in school you have more time than when you're at a job or having a company. So watch as many movies as you can from as many places to develop that knowledge. 'Cause every, every industry has kind of like its own lingo and terminology that I feel like professionals have a higher level of than students.

Mm-hmm.

But it also can come from just meeting with a bunch of different people that do different things in film, whether they're at a high level or a low level, and trying to understand what they do. Like, I remember when I was trying to figure out what job to go into, I just would go to festivals or networking events and it'd be a very simple, like, nice to meet you. What do you do? Why do you love it?

And I love that.

And just like, I, it was a very genuine, and it turned out to be very effective networking cuz I think a lot of people don't know how to network at first. But for me, I was just curious and trying to learn like, why do people do what they love or why don't they love it? And then like, what excites me? So I, I think it's just about discovery in that phase.

I love that.

Yeah.

And Heather, what's one thing you think any aspiring venture capitalist can do to set themselves up for career success?

Well, gosh, I should flip that onto you, Paige, because your, your entry was, I mean, I loved it so much that I had to invest in you. I was like, you know, I, yeah, so I'll let you answer it after me too. I like that what you said about curiosity and, and discovery. I think that's a big one. I really think you have to know where you're adding value. And so many people think, oh, I need to get this job, or I want this job, or I want something from somebody else, or I wanna interview for the— and you're thinking about taking before you're thinking about giving. Why would that person take your meeting? Why are you gonna make their life easier? What did you add to the ecosystem? Venture is one of those things where it's just, there's so much, there's so little structure. It's not like you have this like set bracket and career path, right? And so you really have to say, what, where is there a white space that I think I have a unique insight into? Why should you be in this field? Like, it's not just something that is another job. It's something that you have to create for yourself because the whole thing is just a blank canvas. I mean, there are—

It's all made up.

Yeah. I mean, there, there are a lot of ways in, but Yeah, I, I don't even know. I didn't even try to get into venture per se, right? It was just, oh, oh, I guess that I need to do this if I wanna create this. Oh, I need this to create that if I wanna do this. And so you just have to put the pieces together. But, you know, it's a totally different world now. I think people in school are studying venture. That wasn't even a thing when I was in school. So, so yeah, I, I think that, but the constant principles are the same. When you meet people, you know, be curious, find out what they're doing, understand how they got there. What do you wanna take from that? What do you wanna leave from that? How do you wanna do it differently? And then just valuable connections. So I think my, my way in was just trying to figure out what mapping the ecosystem and understanding, you know, who I could create value for by either connecting them or helping them or, you know, seeing what they needed.

Yeah, very similar thing breaking into film too. And, and like, it's hard to bring value when you're just starting, but I think you're right about connecting people or, or You know, everyone needs help with something. So, yeah.

And you know, one thing, I didn't come from like a pedigree institution or anything. So I just, like you said, I didn't care about title. Like that wasn't what was driving me at all. I didn't even know what the titles were, you know? So I think the more you don't care about what, how you're sitting in the industry, or I need to set myself up for the job, 10 jobs down, you know, this is my third career. I think it's really important to just say, do you love what you're doing? Are you adding value? Do you love the people you're working with? You know, do you align with how they're, how they're doing business?

Yeah, I think to piggyback off of what both of you are saying, one on like discovery. I was never the best student, but I was always really good friends with my teachers. So past high school and college, I think I took that same application of like using the human connection, like having empathy and curiosity and applied it to whatever I was interested in at the time and kind of breaking down the There was this implicit understanding of like hierarchy and I was like, I'll just like be friends with those people. You know, I like don't, I don't care about the title. Like I'm just curious about what you do and if you love to do it. And I think it's a big journey of self-discovery. If you go out and talk to 100 people, you're gonna have to tell your story to 100 people and you're gonna pick up little Lego blocks from other people and your reflections on your conversations and refining that. personal narrative was a really important part for me because it's, it's like learning anything. You need the vocabulary to explain what excites you so that you can find the people that are also as excited by it. And Sienna, to your point, there's a lot of jargon. So like, if you don't know it, it's really hard to talk about it. And so that, that was really key for me. And I would love to talk about one of our other common threads, which is Forbes Under 30. So Heather is a judge. And Sienna and I were both honorees this year. So Heather, since we are relatively new to the community, I would love to hear more about why you decided to be a judge and then how to stand out in a field of applicants for any Forbes Under 30 hopefuls that are listening.

I said yes to being a judge mostly because I think in order to find new types of fund managers and do what we just talked about, like have other people break into venture, you have to have other perspectives. So when I was judging, I actually looked A lot at the distance traveled to get into the job that they were into. That was my lens that I came from first. And a lot of people might've sorted the spreadsheet by pedigree or years of ventures or what your deals were and all this sort of stuff. But for me, that journey is just so indicative of where you're gonna go the next 10 years that that's how you kind of pick those rising stars and invent or, and, you know, internally we call it build velocity. How fast is a founder building? Because it doesn't matter what they're building, the world's going to change 10 times over. The product's going to change 10 times over. But if you're applying that growth mindset that we just talked about to, um, to whatever you're doing, it'll be that in your life. And you're naturally going to be somebody who's going to be a breakout star. So, you know, I just approached it the same way because I do think venture needs more people who are coming in who are not thinking about the spreadsheets and the making money and all this sort of stuff, but really more builders and people who are thinking about Growing and stretching their mind and, and also having a lot of self-awareness of the founders are the ones who are doing really hard work. You're not telling them if it's a good, you know, a good company or not just because you are, because you have the capital and the power structure seems that way. You have to, you have to really find the ones that align with that you're thinking about and be that one, the partner, and encourage them. So those are some of the things that I was looking at and I would continue to look at as I hire, when we, when, as we build our fund franchise and As I partner with other VCs.

I love that. I love the idea of, I was like calc tutor for a while in college and I always, one of my favorite subjects was vector math. And I think I apply that a lot to now that build velocity is like, okay, here's your starting point, here's your ending point. And like how long, how far along that vector path are you? And like, has your direction shifted and how has that impacted like your velocity, which is super nerdy math stuff. But I, I do think about it a lot. So that's, that's so funny. I, I never realized we had thought similarly about that specifically. Um, Sienna, you and I met at a dinner at the 2021 Forbes Summit called Women in Wealth, which was definitely the highlights, one of the highlights of the weekend for me. And one thing I didn't know about you earlier on was the backstory of your breakthrough story. So in your senior year at USC, you had a pinched nerve and in treating it, a doctor broke one of your vertebrae, so you were unable to sit for 10 hours a day and your plan to become a production assistant was derailed, but might've been the best thing that's happened to you so far. So could you explain why?

Yeah.

I mean, I, I had like worked so hard in college to have like the most competitive, I guess, assistant entry position possible. Maybe not the most, but at least I, I tried my best to have it because it's so competitive to get a job entering the industry. And usually you start as an assistant and move up, whether that's for an agent or a producer, the way that you get there is by having certain internships. So I had interned at UTA, Paramount, Brad Pitt's company, et cetera. And, and then when my back was broken, I couldn't, like, it, it just totally threw off the plans that I had had because they weren't physically possible. And it took me a few years to recover from it, but it wasn't even like 10 hours a day the first 2 years. It was like— 10 to 15 minutes a day. Like I was trying to explain to my teachers that I couldn't be a normal student and I was like, can I please do things online? They're like, well, you can stand in the back of the classroom. I'm like, how am I supposed to? Oh no. Like I, I was in business school, so I'm like, how am I supposed to do like data analysis standing in the back of a classroom? It's just not possible. And so then I, some of the directors that I had done shorts with, I had got into doing their ultra low budget features cuz I, I couldn't sit still even having Like physical limitations in my time off from school. And producing's a lot of like calling, meeting with people, talking to people, pushing ideas forward, probably similar to venture. And so a lot of it I was actually able to do either like standing or in bed or taking like little sitting breaks in my apartment and just putting like projects together. And then like I had gone back to school on and off for a few years and then I just ended up getting consistent jobs producing and enough things getting made. And keep in mind, this isn't like the $200,000 to $500,000 range, which is like tiny budget movies that no one will probably ever hear of. But it, it put, it made me realize I could do something that I wouldn't think of doing. And a quote that came from it is like, life is what happens when you're busy making plans. And I think I would've been like way too afraid at the time. Not, I think, I know I would've been way too afraid to be like, all right, I can go get Like A and B list celebrities and millions of dollars attached to projects, never having done it at, at 21, 22, 23, 24. And so it just like limited my opportunities of what I could do for work. And because of that, I had to create an avenue and then I'm like, oh, this is way more fun than, than being an assistant. And you know, I'll just continue struggling and building.

I love that. I think that constraints can breed a lot of creativity. For me, it was like staying in San Diego. I was like, oh, well, I don't see a venture firm around that I want to work for long-term, so I guess we have to make one.

Yeah.

And Heather, I would love to, um, switch to another topic. So in a recent article, Heather, you mentioned early on at Human, you made our guide to being human that lists their values. And it's a group of 6 things that represent what you stand for. So being focused on growth, having guts, being resilient, open-minded, collaborative, and grateful.

This is such an astute question. I can't believe you dug in there and found all this stuff. But I mean, the common theme is like, what makes us human? What makes us the people that we are? And I think people over-index on the, the things that you read from a book and the tests that you take and all of the intellectual side of things. And don't get me wrong, being smart is really important, but there's different types of being smart. And so IQ in our industry is table stakes, but IQ and EQ is killer, right? And so how are you really thinking about the human side of things? And it might sound cliché 'cause that's the name of my fund, but everything that I do really has a different spin of where's it coming from and where's that unique ability? I wanna work with people I wanna, I wanna give money to. I want people to make me money who are, who I feel like have these, these qualities. And by the way, the world's changing rapidly. Like you can't be totally devoid of these human qualities and be a leader in these, this day and age. I think people figure you out.

I'm still working on all of those things now, but, but definitely being authentic. I think like, I don't know, I feel like there was a time not too long ago where the focus was just so much on IQ and really what you're saying, EQ and IQ, that combo and trying to develop both is like, it's, it's really powerful now.

I mean, a link for us, Sienna, is in the film world. I used to work with film director David Lynch. I ran his nonprofit organization here in New York and, you know, he's the consummate, you know, like creative mind. And he used to say, you have to go deep. You have to go deep for the big ideas. You know, at a surface level is really always, your mind can actually be a huge, you know, inhibitor because you're not going really deep in, in understanding your intuition. And so much of what we do is intuition. People just don't give it enough credit.

I love that.

So cool, Heather.

That is so cool.

Just fangirling over here.

I can't believe you had, that's such a good question. I'm so happy that you asked us this.

Thank you. I, I would say I've talked to you about this before, but I was like pretty deep in like spirituality and intuition. I think it's super important in like early stage venture and just like in general life to have a good sense of like what your gut or like intuition is telling me. I like this way of making decisions that I use sometimes is you flip a coin and you like name both sides of the coin, like one of the decisions, and you look at what it is and whatever your like gut is telling, whatever your gut reaction to it is at that point, that's kind of what your true answer is.

Totally love that.

I can imagine, Sienna, in your position too, like you're using your gut to know what's going to be commercial, what's gonna go mainstream, what's, what do you take a bigger bet on? How are you, you know, that it's such a creative field with execution involved too.

Yeah, I've learned to trust it more as time has gone on based on successfully following it and not successfully following it. And I, I think when I've followed it, it, it's worked out really well, even if it's, it can't even be described in words. And so. There's like this feeling I get after I read scripts sometimes, and maybe it happens like once a year or every other year where I'm like, I know that this movie's gonna happen. Like, let's go do it. And it's, it's one of the best, like, intuitive feelings that logically I can make no sense of.

I love that.

But it, it helps. It's probably the same thing looking at companies for you, right? Or people or things to invest in.

Yeah, 100%.

It's like, I call it table-thumping enthusiasm, or you get off a call and you're like, yes. Yes, this is it.

And then you thump your table.

Yeah, I'm like, so to wrap it up, you guys, forever.

I know, this is so fun.

Okay, okay, cool. All right, well, with that, I'm gonna wrap us up.

Wait, go to a comedy show, Paige. You have to go to a comedy— go to my table, go down, go to a comedy show. Sometimes they're horrible, sometimes they're fantastic, but I love that.

Okay, amazing.

Also jazz clubs. There's really cool jazz clubs.

All right, all right, all right. The good stuff's coming out just as I'm about to hit the stoplight. Thanks so much for tuning in today to Seed to Harvest. If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe wherever your favorite podcast listening platform is. I'll be releasing new episodes weekly, and if you have any questions or comments, feel free to let me know on Twitter. That's Paige Finn, Paige and then Finn with 3 N's. Thanks and see you again next week.