Stop People-Pleasing & Avoiding Tough Convos: How to Speak Up Without Fear or Guilt

Hello. Welcome back to Getting Open with Me. Andrea Miller. Okay. If you identify as somebody who is conflict avoidant, a people pleaser, somebody who battles imposter syndrome, or has trust issues or really feel like you have a hard time saying what you mean, particularly when it feels like there's, there's conflict and you just, you feel afraid, this show is for you. My guest and I, we go in deep. We go in with a lot of passion and we come out with so many actionable, practical takeaways for making change. And sure, some of the things can take a little longer to go within deeply and feel worthy, but that's not what the show is about. This show is about very actionable, practical things you can literally do now, and I mean literally now, to upend the people. Pleasing the imposter, feeling the imposter syndrome, feeling the conflict avoidance. This show is so good, let's get into it. Raelle Altano is a certified communication coach and the founder of well with with Raelle Coaching, where she helps conflict avoidant women speak up, stop shrinking and set boundaries with confidence. Rael has built a community of over 700,000 engaged followers on social media where she shares actionable scripts, real life examples and confidence boosting tools to help people communicate clearly, kindly and without regret. And oh my God, you guys have to follow her. It's so freaking good. And you're going to see her in a sec. She's so gorgeous. So it's like you get it all, all the good advice and it's entertaining and beautifully presented. Rael works with individuals through one on one coaching, teaches classes on communication skills and reframing mindsets, and leads workshops for nonprofits and corporates. Welcome to Getting Open, Rael. Thanks so much for joining me. I cannot wait to start talking to you, get into all the good stuff.

Thank you. Thank you. Yes, yes, I try.

I try.

Thank you, Andrea. Thank you for that.

No, for sure. Well, let's just start with what's personal to you because you're so passionate about your work and helping women in a way that is so personal and relatable to literally millions of women. Like, and it's a lot of the stuff a lot of women don't want to talk about. Right. But we all know it. So what happened in your life to make you so passionate, open and committed to this kind of work?

Yes. So I grew up with divorced parents. They emigrated to the United States right before I was born. First generation American. And there were a lot of stigmas around divorce then, especially within my culture from Armenia, right? Yes, yes, within the Armenian culture. Exactly. So divorced parents, only child from that marriage, mediated a lot between the two. Always wanted to keep the peace. School was my happy place and just connecting with classmates. And it was my constant, really, because we had a joint custody situation. And that all led to wanting to be liked. You know, I was outwardly confident and there were a lot of good things, of course, in that, but I really wanted to be liked. Hated, conflict, and was very in tune with everybody else, but always put myself last. So it's taken years to unlearn. It is still a work in progress. I think even over the last three, four years since I've become a mom, I've unlearned so much as I step into that new role. So constant work in progress. And I want to support other women who have had similar experiences, or maybe not, but the underlying theme is the same. Help them speak up, find their voice, say what they want to say with confidence, say it clearly and move forward.

Thank you for that. I mean, I presume you're married.

Yes.

So what has the relationship been like with your husband? With the preface being. By the way, I have two boys. They're 12 and 15. And we're going to talk about your baby, your little one. I just sent mine to seventh grade today. Always a baby because our kids are. I always call my boys my. My Little Buddhas because they have so much to teach. But I would expect, even before that, that your marriage has been a crucible of sorts for. For learning these things that you're teaching other women. So talk about that, Leo.

Sure, sure. A lot of patience, empathy, understanding. That's one of the techniques I try to lead with, which we'll get into, but approaching from a place of. Of understanding first, if possible, and initiating the conversation in that way. So it's. It's called the age technique. I'll just. I'll put it out there right now. Age is approach, gratitude and empathy. So, like, look, I hear you.

Age is a. Is what?

Approach is approach. Yeah, with gratitude and empathy.

Leading.

With phrasing around that. Thanks so much for doing this the other day. I'd love if we could chat about maybe doing some things differently for next time or whatever, or. Look, I hear you. I know you've had a long day, but I didn't love how you spoke to me the other day, or I wish you handled this when we agreed you'd handle it. So leading with that gratitude or empathy, when possible, and extending grace to your partner. I think, especially as parents, your patience is running lower, you're tired, you just have more. Both moms and dads have mental load, so giving that extra layer of grace, knowing the person in front of you is a human and giving respect while also commanding it and expecting it.

But let me ask you this. I totally agree with that theory, and it's a great practice, but when things are breaking down, and let's face it, that's when our relationships are our greatest teachers. When little Raelle, who had to be the freaking parent, right, who was there to keep everything calm and. And willing to do that at her own freaking expense. I'm making presumptions here, so get. Tell me if I get anything wrong, but I, I think a lot of us can relate to playing that role, especially women. Talk about how that has played out in your marriage. And by the way, I love that. I mean, I don't love the word age, but okay, we'll come back to aging gracefully, right? But just. But I love the. No, but I love that. No, I love the acronym. I mean, listen, gratitude, grace, empathy. I mean, these are practices. And the more you practice, clearly, the more you. You master them, right? And that becomes the norm in a relationship. But I am curious, considering what you've. What you went through as, as a younger person, when it breaks down, I mean, what have you done? I mean, really underneath, right? Because we can do more of that, more skillfully when what's underneath has been healed. So. And, you know, I'm just, I'm. I'm curious how that. The challenging side of that has shown up in your marriage and how it's, you know, how it, how it's played out. Like, what. Where have you messed up and where have you done better?

Great question. Jumping to conclusions, maybe again, maybe from past. Past trauma or past triggers, assuming the worst, because that's just how it unfolded in my experience. So jumping to conclusions, I think would be a big one. And especially earlier on, like, we've been married now five years.

Talk about an example of jumping to conclusions. Like, I mean, we can all get that theoretically. But bring us into a moment where you have thought the worst or you felt the worst and that has caused things to unravel.

Something my husband said. I'm not even remembering the exact example at the moment he had said something, so he misinterpreted something I said about waking up early and got upset, got a little bit annoyed about that, and, and took it as an opportunity to kind of pat himself on the back. He was like, wow, you know, good thing I have A I, you have a supportive husband to, to do xyz. And that set me off a little bit. I said, you know, that's, that's. We both should give each other credit. Like, why, why would you, why say that now? So we were just getting ready to go to bed and like, it just felt unnecessary. So he did, we, he. He ended up saying, you know, it, it wasn't the right time. And I shouldn't have said that like, that like my, my feelings were just frustration because he had to get up early for something. And he said, but I was not trying to negate things that you do. Like, I wasn't trying to take away from all of your contributions, all of your effort and everything that you do. So he said I was wrong. But he said, I think you taking it to the next level and taking it to that place was also unwarranted and a little bit extreme. And I think it comes from a little bit of prepping for the worst case scenario or you'd always, not always, but tending to think that someone is, is giving, making a dig at you or like trying to knock you down a peg.

So.

We talked through it, worked through it. It was frustrating, but I think it was a combination of a few communicated. This wasn't setting a boundary necessarily, but it was just honesty on both ends and working to understand one another.

How long have you guys been together?

Been together over 10 years. Married for five and a half.

Okay, so is this, is this the product of a lot? Because that sounds like a very grown up relationship and, and good job. Right. And this is stuff you teach. And at the same time, I mean, I'm part, I'm, I'm pressing a little bit because so often you only learn these things, especially coming from, from what you described through doing it wrong. Right. And I think most of us can relate to not being in a grown up relationship and doing it wrong and trying really hard to get it right. And so did it take a while to get to that point where you were able to have what sounds like. I mean, by the way, my husband and I have had these amazing breakthroughs recently where it's like through so much hurt and heartache, things have gotten better.

Right.

But it's taken a lot of courage for both of us and having the willingness to say things that have been scary. Right. And you talk about hard conversations and we'll come back to that because that's, you know, a big part of your platform, I think. But I just, I'd love to rewind a little bit it's like 10 and a half years later you're able to have that conversation. How long did it take and what kind of work did you do to get to that point where he can say something stupid, you can react stupidly, and then both of you can say, yeah, that was stupid. Because that's what it, that's what happened. I mean, and that's, that's a little Raell. And I don't know your husband's name, but like little. Whatever his name is. What's his name?

Yeah, Eric.

Eric. Eric. Yeah. I mean that. But that's where it's all coming from. Right? Because here, intellectually, for those of you who are listening, and I'm pointing to my brain, pointing to my head, we know better, we know better in ear quotes. But it's a little, little sides of us, little, you know, inner children in us, that, that feel that, that tendency to react. And like you say to, you didn't say overreact, you said, what did you say? Like kind of expect the. Expect the worst. Yes.

Assume the worst. Expect the worst.

Thank you.

Yes, yes, exactly. It's taken a lot, I think, just maturing. Also knowing you can't sweat the small stuff because there are so many small things, especially when you have very young kids. Our boys are three and one. I mean, there's just, there's a lot. You know, your, your, your patience is running low or you're tired or whatever. So knowing you can't stop the small step. But also just a little bit of, of or not a little bit. A lot of inner work. He's done work. I mean, even with my coaching and, and what I teach. I think you teach what you most need to know. You teach what you most need to learn. I mean, excuse me. So that's a big part of it and saying, okay, if this were a client, how would I, how would I guide them? What would I say? In the past, it used to be going from saying nothing, nothing, nothing to just like exploding, assuming the worst, all of the things. In this case, I flagged it right away and I said that that wasn't cool. And it felt like this to me. And he said that's when he was like that, you know? Yes, that wasn't right. But that's, that wasn't the biggest. My big, my end goal wasn't to diminish you.

Yeah, well, and what's nice about that modeling is, I mean, everything that you just described in that kind of grownup relationship is if you're both self aware enough and you're willing just to take that breath. Almost everything can get sorted out. I mean, I would say everything can get sorted out, including betrayals and huge disappointments. You know, I think part of it is that is that practice. And then I also think it's back to the expectations thing. If you assume good intent versus bad intent. Right. And I feel like that assuming bad intent can be really tricky because for so many of us that were raised by parents that. That genuinely tried their best, that. That did love us, but they, I always say, I mean, it's a Marian Williamson phrase. You can't give what you don't have.

Right.

So our parents couldn't give us a better modeling of what it looks like to be in a healthy, successful marriage. In the case of your family, or in the case of a lot of other families, including mine, that addiction ends up running rampant. Because. Because.

Right.

Because that's how addiction works. And so many other coping mechanisms that prevent that mature modeling. Right. And that. So then it leaves you and me and. And million, many millions of others to try to figure it out on their own. But let me rewind a little bit. Just so when it comes to your work, what is the. What are the one or two most common? I mean, you talk about you. You choose to teach what you need to master. Right. Which is so noble. What are the one or two most prevalent things that you see in your practice that you're teaching women to do or that they're coming to you with? And those could be different. They think they're coming to you for X, I bet, at times, but you're really like, yo, it's Y. So talk to me about X and Y.

Sure, sure, absolutely. Sometimes they think they're coming to get just to speak better, to show up more confidently, to present better in a meeting, to articulate better, like all the technical stuff that comes with communication. But it's really inner confidence. It's fighting through that imposter syndrome. It's owning your space and right to speak and trusting your instincts. Major one, it's that inner confidence. So when I first started out within coaching, I started more broadly. And my goal was I want to help women feel more confident. I want to help improve confidence. And that was what my go to was. But I kept coming to communication topics because I love to talk. And I think it's just such a good. That's one of the biggest ways that you can present yourself and show up in the world. And I said, I think there's more. It's more powerful to Niche down and to focus on communication. Improving communication, but then still improving the bigger picture and boosting change or impacting someone's confidence and making them a more powerful, more confident person, and in turn, a better communicator, a more effective communicator, a clearer one, or even someone who says, you know what? I said that wrong. Let me backtrack this is what I mean. Like, even just the confidence to do that and to. To own a fumble or to, to say, you know, let me start over, or you. Look, I need to. I need to take a pause here. This isn't working for me. Let's come back to this. Yeah, yeah, it's.

They.

They come to me with the. The goal of communicating better, but it's like, it's a lot of inner work, a lot of inner confidence that they're looking to shift subconsciously.

Okay, and let me see if I can unpack that a little bit. Because on the one hand, we all want more confidence. And it's almost like playing. What is it playing? Because it's football season, A great offense is your best defense. Right? And so it's like, hey, we want to be more confident. But the truth is, you know, you. You wrote down imposter, or you referenced imposter syndrome, trust. And you talk about confidence, but to me, when I think of kind of, what's the parallel to confidence? It's a sense of worthiness. Right? I mean, and so I was just listening to a famous book by her famous book, you can heal your life, Louise Hayes, and she's like, you know, this is one of the OGs in the self development space who's like, yeah, it always comes down to not feeling good enough, not feeling worthy. Right. Is that your observation? I mean, because if you're lacking confidence, you're lacking confidence because you don't feel good enough, you don't feel important enough, you don't feel worthy enough. I mean, do you agree?

Yes. Not feeling worthy enough and being scared of. Of taking up that space, too. I think that that fear of disability, that fear of owning the space is another layer of it.

Well, totally. And so what are the. What are the way. Sorry, say that again.

I was gonna say it's like yourself, they or we self sabotage. We're in our own way. Like, we. We know we have the capability to be confident, but even then, it's like the fear of. Of. Of that visibility, the fear of taking up that space, the fear of having a conversation be a little bit awkward because you needed to set a boundary, but Putting it out there anyway, because it's necessary to protect your space, the fear.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. And what I think is interesting, I'd love for you to walk me through an exercise or two, either in the next couple minutes or as we go through our conversation, because what I've observed in my life is you can create a virtuous cycle. So you may be coming from a place of unworthiness, and there's a lot to, you know, a lot of healing to do and meditation and mindfulness. But it's like, I think of the kind of work you do as these effective hacks, where it's like, when you start doing this thing, you start using your voice. You start saying, I'm going to show up and I'm going to say this fricking thing. Even if it scares me, even if my voice shakes, you do it and you're like, snap, I did it right? And that starts to chip away at the unworthiness versus saying, hey, I'm going to become completely worthy, and then I'm going to start to use my voice. You might get really old doing that, right? Totally.

Totally. Yes, exactly. Exactly. The confidence comes from the clarity and the doing of the thing, not the other way around. I wholeheartedly believe in that.

Okay, so confidence comes from clarity and the doing of the thing. What is. If I was your client and I was coming to you saying, you know what, I just kind of not feeling like I can really use my whole voice. There's so much more that I want to do with my career and, you know, my relationships and so forth. What would be an exercise that you would walk me through? Or would you walk me through an exercise that I could then just go, all right, let me just start to do this thing? And maybe there's not that kind of like, off the shelf, but I, you know, I guess I kind of would think that there are one or two things that it's like just about everybody, you know, especially women, can do better with this particular blind spot, if you will. Sure.

So let's say I think signaling success. I actually recently had a talk at this women's networking group in New York City about this topic. Signaling success, like confidently articulating your wins in the workplace to your boss or to leadership in a performance review. I think so many women sometimes fear that they're going to come off arrogant or they're not going to be sharing the wealth, or there are all these worries. And I would say if someone's looking to grow professionally to identify the areas that they're doing well and to say, okay, let's make a, make a list, make a visual list of the areas that you are strong in, where you've made contributions. Associate facts or statistics to them and present them. Let's say you're hoping to get a promotion or you want to present your case for a promotion. Right? That growth professionally associated to a statistic or fact. And when you meet with your boss, you could say, you know, we, I contributed to this. I was able to make this happen. It and it we were able to, to impact the work in this way. We were able to increase revenue by x percent or whatever it is. But you tie it to a bigger picture, to a company goal. It's no longer just about you. You are like the liaison, the facilitator. And you tie it to that bigger picture and make a case for yourself as to why you maybe want to take on more work or you want more responsibility or you want to get a raise or would be considered for a promotion, whatever it might be. But start with tangible facts and examples of how you made improvements. Find a statistic or two and tie it to a bigger picture. Think that would be one exercise and okay, how do we do this? Finding your voice does not come from just being in the meeting and saying it in the moment. A little bit of preparation can go a long way. So practice in low stakes environments. I say this all the time to my clients. Low stakes environments where you're in a safe space and practice say it out loud so that you, it starts to feel natural. You get comfortable with saying what you're saying. You're, you're using your voice, you're hearing yourself. And when the moment comes, you don't feel as sure. It's a little bit scary still, but you don't feel as, as much like a fish out of water.

And let me ask you this. Would you advise women to do this only when it's time for performance review or should they be peppering throughout? Because I always feel like there's a lot in this world of busy people. What have you done for me lately? Right. It's really easy even for the most well intentioned people to forget because I mean especially I think of myself as a leader. I'm always thinking about what's going, what's coming, right. And I, it's a blind spot that I occasionally have. I have to be so intentional about remembering and giving that, that praise and gratitude to my, you know, team. I mean, honestly, not gonna lie like my husband, my friends, it's like, okay, crap. Like. Cause I'm so thinking about what are we doing next? And so. But I put this out there for all you professionals. I mean, there are a lot of bosses like me. Not because we're bad. It's worth thinking about what's next because that's. It's my job to take us into the future. It's also my job to appreciate my team.

Right.

But it helps me a lot when my team's like, hey, and remember that thing? And I'm like, oh, my God, totally. Right? So it feels. What you're saying is that just. And not. Not in a. Not in a, you know, kind of. I mean, nothing you're saying is meant to be malicious. I know that. Not in a manipulative way, but just in a. Hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna advocate for myself. I mean, I feel like that's what you're saying, but not necessarily waiting to, hey, it's. Now it's time for a bonus. It's like, just kind of keep advocating for yourself throughout as it feels like what you're saying with. With specifics.

Yes, 100%, I think 1. On ones and touch bases with bosses are important, whether it's virtual or in person. And use those opportunities to say, yeah, this. This exciting thing happened. I was proud to contribute to this. Grateful for this opportunity. Would love to hear your thoughts. Would love to. To learn about a similar project or whatever. Whatever it might be, but take those opportunities. Not only when it's like the moment. There are a lot of little moments they'll throw out.

Yeah, yeah. It sounds like it's really the key is being intentional and kind of prioritizing your own career success. And it feels like even what you're saying could be useful in other relationships. Although you don't want to be like the wife who's like, and I did this. The guy was like, yeah, and I did that. And you're like, okay, sorry, that didn't work. What is it? Sorry. Go ahead.

I mean, take it into the personal space. You could say, I love that. I love that you did this. Thank you so much. I was able to do that. And between the two of us, we tackled xyz. So it's collaborative.

It's collaborative. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's like, if you don't put it out there, how. How are they going to know? I think that applies for professional spaces. For personal space. If you don't put it out there, how will they know?

Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. Okay, so you talk specifically about conflict avoidant women. What is the number one way for a woman who is conflict avoidant or who feels she's often mistreated to change how she shows up?

So I have a little method that I like to call the bar method. It's not a little method.

It's a method. It's a giant method. It's a gigantic method, but it really works. All right, keep going.

That's the bar method. So buy time, assert the boundary, or redirect the conversation.

Okay, hang on. Rewind.

Buy time, buy time, assert your boundary, redirect the conversation, and you can mix and match these. You can buy time and redirect. You can assert the boundary and buy time. I mean, the options are many, but this is a great go to for women who tend to be more passive in their communication, maybe even passive aggressive, because that's just what they've learned and that's the go to. But buying time, saying, hey, like, I gotta get back to you on that. I'm not quite sure if, like, someone's. Someone's in like an auto agree mode or redirecting, like, you know, I'd rather not get into that right now, but would love to, to hear about your trip. I know you just came back. How was it like, redirecting the conversation altogether and then asserting the boundary, which there are. There's two techniques that I teach within my coaching for this, but age is one of them. Prefacing with a little bit of gratitude and empathy. Approaching it with that or calling it out directly. Hey, look, you. You said this. And I, I don't, I don't appreciate that. I don't like that. Articulating what you liked or disliked, what you need or what you don't want. If you need to be more direct, that's like a second more direct option for asserting that boundary.

So, okay, is there an example? Sorry, I said a lot of information there. I know. Yeah, yeah, no, totally. And I think it'll be most useful for everybody watching and listening to go through an example because again, the theory is great. Amazing theory. I. I mean, what is it, Mike Tyson who says, everybody has a plan till you get punched in the mouth, right? I mean, it's in that moment, you're in your sympathetic nervous system. You're stressed, you're pissed, you're hurt. I mean, right? These are the. You're uncertain. I mean, so it's in these. In fact, I love. There's another quote. Oh, God, I wish I could think of it a little bit more articulate. It's like change happens not when you're meditating, not when you're journaling. And I do all those things. Right. It's when you're on the mat in the middle of the conflict, that's where the change, in my experience, that's really where the change takes place. Right? And that's even, you know, just going back and asking you about the example in your marriage. It's like all the theories are great and you need to know the theory so you can apply it, but it's in applying it and saying, okay, I'm not going to do the same goddamn thing again. I'm going to fucking do something different because I am tired of feeling. And I use this very foul language. Sorry, everybody. You know what to expect on my show. No, but I say that with so much passion and on. On behalf of literally millions of women who feel like we can't use our voices. It's dangerous to use our voices. We have been socialized to not use our voices, to smile. And I'm just going to keep the peace. It's just going to be easier if I just fucking swallow it. Guess what, ladies? No, it's not. And a lot of men are like this too. Let's just be clear. This is not just a gender thing, right? Yes, it tends to dominate with more women, but there are plenty of men who feel like they have to swallow it and it feels bad and it makes you sick. And that is proven through so much data that if you don't use your voice and if you just feel like you have to be nice and swallow is going to show up in a lot of dysfunction in relationships, lack of promotion at work, and in the worst case scenario, in conditions in our bodies.

Right?

So walk me through an example, if there's one. I mean, listen, you can make it up or you can change somebody's name, but if you will walk me through an example or two examples, you know, or just whatever is appropriate here to say, here's the. Here's a scenario, here's how this person did it, or here's how I advise them and I'm happy to role play. You can make me. You can make me. You can put me, put me in a scenario, you know? Cause I really, I say this, Raelle. I mean, I'm obviously so passionate about it, and I know you are too. This is where change happens. Change is not theoretical. Change is change. Change is by being in the heat of the moment and doing it differently. And by the way, I love this whole business of buying time And I was going to come back to this, but I mean, there was a scenario that I had recently, and it was just. It was like, really tough and someone was being really toxic to me. And I was like, okay. Like, and I pushed back a little bit. I was like, okay. And I circled back the next day, and I'm like, you know what I thought? And, you know, this person offered an apology, but it really bothered me. And I circled back the next day very calmly. I made the case for how much it bothered me, and they completely owned it. And I was like, snap. Thank you. And they're like, yeah, I thought about what you said, and you're right. And I was like, thank you. Like, I feel so much better and stronger having called that person out, but in a way that was really respectful. And the night before, this person had. Or day before, rather, this person had apologized. But I say this because when this whole business of buying time, if you don't get it right in the moment, you don't have to get it right in the moment. And if anything, I would say. And I'm wondering what you think. If you're going to be really reactive, don't try to solve it in the moment because you just make it worse.

I completely agree. I completely agree. Buy time. Yeah. I say we have to come back to this or I can't get into this now. Or you are not calm and it's making me anxious.

Or I'm not calm. You know what? Like, I really. I care enough about this relationship where I. And I care enough about myself and about you. I'm gonna come back. And maybe it's not tomorrow, maybe it's two or three days. I mean, listen, my months later is a little. Eh. But I just, I feel like. And by the way, I'm going to call it anybody who's making excuses, because I used to do that too. Maybe I sometimes still do. Oh, two or three days have passed. It's too late. I'm going to swallow it. Don't swallow it. If you're feeling. Here's what I do. If I'm feeling bad about something and I'm chewing on it, even if it's a few days later, a week later, and sometimes, especially with parents and siblings and very. And even marriages, if something is years old and you say, I'm just going to swallow it happened years ago, don't. Because if you're thinking about it, your energy is projecting it, and it is. It is, it is impacting the relationship, whether you think you're saying it or not. You're saying it because your body is saying it, because your energy field is saying it. So don't sit here and continue to say and fake yourself out that, yeah, it's okay. I'm just going to keep swallowing it. I mean, anyway, so I'm getting like really hyper on today's show.

No, no, it's true. And it's, it's. You hold them accountable too. I mean, there, there were things that, that took place when I was younger that I brought up to, to my parents, a specific parent, and I said, you know, years have passed, but that wasn't cool. And it, it as an adult, I had, we had that conversation and it, it nudged them or not nudged, but it force them to face it and look at their adult child now and be held accountable. So. Yes.

And did they, I mean, did in this case was. Were you able to say it in a way that your parent could hear it and could they make the repair rail?

Not really. They, they heard it, but it took a lot to say. You know, there was a lot of excuse making still.

Yeah.

So not really, unfortunately, but I knew what I was saying was right and valid. And sometimes it's like you may not get the closure, but, you know, you at least put it out there and that sometimes has to be enough.

Can I give you a big high five? I mean, genuinely, and I say this and I just, I really want to circle back and emphasize the point. They weren't, they made excuses, they were probably defensive. They weren't. You weren't able to get the closure necessarily. You weren't able to get the repair made, but you did your part. Right. And that to me is like the beauty and brilliance of growing up emotionally and like owning, owning where you are and saying, I'm going to do my part and I can't be attached to the outcome because if I'm attached to the outcome, then I'm going to get really pissed. Like, if I put myself out there and I'm expecting this tearful apology and they don't bring it now, I'm doubly pissed.

Right, right. And sometimes buying time helps with that. Where you buy some time, you've separated yourself enough from the situation that you don't need to attach to the outcome in order to move forward in a healthy way versus when you're in the heat of the moment, the argument, the conflict, the drama, the bad behavior, you're just hoping for change so much that, you know, you're, you're at their mercy almost.

You're.

You're at the other person's mercy, whether they get it or not.

Well, in that I. There was somebody who I'm close to. I actually. This parenting expert, and I remember interviewing her and somebody I just really love. And by the way, we all have blind spots, and I learned so much from my guests, and I get challenged by my guests all the time, and it's a great gift. She said with regard to her dad, you know, it's a dysfunctional relationship. And he still. I mean, she's. This is a very accomplished woman. And she was just like, oh, I need him to do whatever. And I just stopped her. I'm like, wait, you don't need him to do that. I know you feel like you need him, but if you need him and he doesn't, I mean, and I say this because we've all felt like that I need. I need my spouse to do this. I need my kid to do this. I need my parents. I need somebody else to do this thing. And I just feel like you are setting yourself. Sometimes it works. Sometimes the person. I mean, it's like this idea of I rise and the person rises with me. I love it. That happens. It really does. Like, if you're. If you're. If you're wise and you've got, you know, kind of clarity and so forth, but just. I just want to call out this idea of I need this person, too, is it just feels like you're setting yourself up for failure. Do you feel. Do you get that a lot in your. In your coaching? Like, where the person just is really attached to another person's response? And what do you tell them?

Yes, yes, I have gotten that. I've noticed it within some of my clients, and I tell them that. That you can only control what you can control, and you can only be responsible for yourself.

I mean, that's hard to swallow, right? You know, because it's like, I need my dad to apologize. I need my mom to say, yeah, I. You know, whatever. And it's like. And if they can't, they can't. Or if they just have those blind spots, I mean, what are you going to do if you say you need it? And I even feel like that neediness, like, if you're showing up and trying to have that wise conversation, even that energy of I need this to me, is going to negatively impact the outcome versus saying, and not even saying feeling. I'm going to do my part, and that's all. And then I'm totally detached from any, like, that energy of detachment. Snap it is powerful. Like, if it's real detachment, people feel that because the opposite is true too. If I feel like I'm judging you and I'm criticizing you, it's hard to feel really seen and feel like, I mean, and this has been my experience to really own where you've effed up. I mean, we all know when we've messed up.

Well, most people.

Okay, maybe you're right. You're right. But maybe it's those layers of defensiveness. You're right. I mean, that. That prevent that real, complete ownership and accountability because it would just be so painful. It'd be like death. Like, and especially for a parent. I mean, as a parent myself, you know, I've. I've owned many mistakes. I talk about it openly with, you know, apologize to my kids plenty. And. But I do feel like for a parent, that is one of the hardest things to be able to admit where you messed up, you know, because it really, it's like, that's like the ultimate failure in a lot of ways. Right? Maybe.

I mean, my kids are still young, so it's, It's. I'm sure it gets more complex as the issues get more complex and they become their own people, but it also shows them, like, that it shows them a good example, I think, of how to be. How to be a good person, how to be aware, how to say, how to own your stuff, how to say, yeah, I messed up here. I was the. I was in the wrong.

Yeah, totally.

When. When it inevitably comes time for them.

So, yeah, no, that modeling, I think, is so important. So. Okay, so I feel like we. I. I got us off on a couple of major tangents. So coming back to. Coming back to an exercise using the bar technique, how do we. How do you walk me through putting that into practice? Sure.

So I remembered an example from a client on a group coaching call recently. She had shared that her sister is a very volatile person and tends to snap quickly and then a few days later, just act like nothing happened. And everyone's come to accept that this is just how she is. Right. So my client shared that she was yelling about something, that the sister was yelling to my client about something on the phone for, like, close to an hour. And my client was just sitting there. Like, she just took it and was just taking it, taking it, and was so drained by the end of the phone call. I don't even remember how she said it ended, but she did not stop her and say, look, this isn't working. So scenario like this, how do you apply The. The bar technique or the bar method.

Excuse me?

Yeah, I would say redirect is out the window. It's not time to say, hey, look, let's forget it. Let's chat about this instead. They were talking about a very heavy issue about another family member. So redirect's out the window. I would stop right there. Assert the boundary. And assert the boundary. Not with. I mean, I guess you could do it with gratitude, empathy, or call it out directly. So gratitude empathy would look like, hey, I know this is a sensitive topic for all of us, but the way you're speaking to me is not going to work. Or I don't appreciate how you're speaking to me. Calling it out, that's. With a little bit of gratitude and empathy. Calling it out, like the way you're speaking to me is just not acceptable.

And that's the a. That's the Assert the boundary.

Yeah, exactly. That's asserting boundary. This isn't this. This is just. This is not okay. I'm upset, too, and we are going to get nowhere with you talking like this, and I just can't. I can't continue listening while you're speaking like this. So let's take a pause and shoot me a text when you're feeling more calm, and we can pick this conversation by time.

And did she. Do you know whether she tried that or. I guess it was already. In that case, the situation had already had already occurred.

Yes, it had occurred. And I'd given her an option to say, look, if she comes back and acts like nothing happened, hold her accountable and say, look, again, I know this is a tough situation, a tough time within our family, but I can't accept you continuing to speak to me in this way. It's not productive and it's hurtful and it's disrespectful. So showing a little bit of the impact of it, too. Who is it impacting?

Yeah, can you talk about women over talking? Because this is something I still sometimes do and used to do a lot more because I could see myself in that scenario where it's so I know the right thing to do, but it's so uncomfortable to call somebody out and so. And. Or to be the bearer of bad news or to assert myself. And again, ladies, and. And some guys, this is so common. That's why I'm asking about it. Where it's like, blah, blah, blah, this, that, everything else. Oh, by the way, would you please be a little more respectful to me? Do you see that? Is this a. Is this a Over, over talking. Is that a common problem that you see?

It can be, yes. And my recommendation is come out, come out with the thing first.

Just say it.

Yes. And I know that's easier said than done, but that's why you practice in low stakes environments. You practice when you're driving in the car, when you're alone, when you're with a. And it may feel a little crazy, who cares? But you, you build the muscle memory and you build confidence in your voice in that low stakes environment. So when the time comes, you say it with a little bit more intention and you feel comfortable in that space. But come out with it first. Even if, let's say, like, you have to, you have to have a meeting with someone, I don't know, someone who reports to you and they're not performing great. Hey, look, thanks for, thanks for coming. The reason I called this meeting was because, like, come out with it right away or maybe it's a presentation at work about something positive. But look, hey, we're meeting today to discuss Q2. Q2 reporting and data and what projections are going to look like for Q4. I don't know. But come out, come out with it first. Right?

Yeah. And practice that. Well, the, even this idea of, you know, like you're talking about low stakes situations. I even feel like when you're afraid and especially there are so many women, when they're saying something, the pitch of their voice goes up at the end, like they're asking a question. Like, I hear this all the time and it's like I just want to say lower, like get in your body and lower your voice. Like, practice lowering your voice because that changes the tone a lot.

Yes. And slowing down, talking just a little bit slower than you might normally helps you regulate a little bit. Yeah, helps you, helps you also just helps your mind catch up with your thoughts a bit. And in your words, I mean, slowing down just by a beat or two.

Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. And it's just, to me, it's such a practical, physiological way between the slowing down, lowering, lowering the tone of your voice to, to regain a little bit of control. Right. So you're not like, oh my God, this is so scary. You know, I don't want to say this thing because I don't want this person to, to be mad at me or to reject me or, you know, to cause my nervous system to get triggered or to overreact. Right. And again, whether it's in this case, you were talking about your client with your sister. But so many of us replace sister with some other person that you get triggered by. Right. And I think we've all been there. I'd love to circle back to the conversation you had with your parent or just your advice when it comes to approaching a delicate situation.

Right.

I mean, when I think about the. The bar approach that your technique that you described, that feels like it's in the moment. You know, there's. There's conflict happening versus. Hey, mom. Hey, dad. Hey, sweetie. Something happened yesterday, two years ago. I got to get off my chest. Can you just walk people through how to have those hard conversations in a way that leads to the most productive, desired outcomes?

Call it out. Call out the thing that happened directly. Mention its impact, whether it was two days ago, six months ago, 10 years ago. Mention the impact, how it hurt you or how it impacted you in some way. Yeah. And let them know what you need or let them know what you're looking for. Again, you may not get it, and at that point, you have to be confident enough to close the conversation anyway or to move on. But let them know what you're looking for is what I would recommend. And if necessary, present a consequence. Like, if you want to take it there, link it to some sort of consequence. If you are ready to present that ultimatum, then do it. Look, a few years back, this. And this happened, and it really hurt me and messed me up for many years, and I'm still unpacking it. I would really love for you to acknowledge that that wasn't okay and just hear you reflect on it in hindsight so we can move on. And if you can't do that, we need to rethink our relationship or we need to. We need to. I need to reassess where our dynamic will.

I want to push back on that a little bit. And this is something I've learned over. And listen, it can work. But what's concerning to me, I feel like when you put consequences in place, you often don't give somebody an opportunity to save face. And in that moment, if they can't give it to you versus maybe two or three days later, they go, you know what? I've thought about it, and you're right. And sometimes it happens. Probably a lot of times it doesn't, because not enough people, I would say, sadly, are willing to be accountable and do their work. But every now and then, that little bit of time and that little to your point about the age, metaphor or acronym, you know, in terms of giving grace, you know, having that empathy, because a lot of times I don't think people intend to be hurtful. They hurt, but. But they were hurt, right? I mean, it's like it just. It becomes this ripple effect. And so I just. I wonder rather than advise. And you say. You did say sometimes I want to be careful and not kind of say, well, you always. Everybody should always gives a consequence. But I have found. I mean, oh, my God, I have f'd this up so many times with my kids when I've given a consequence that I had no intention of holding. You don't do this. I mean, wait till Your kids are 12 and 15, Raelle. You'll be like, ah, right? And in the moment, like, you want. You want to give that consequence because you just. It's like you want to go from A to D, right? And if that feels logical, but they're dysregulated or they see it differently. And now you've put a consequence in place. So either you can't save face or they can't save face. Like, it just. It feels like kind of a. Oh, shoot, now. Now we're having a harder time breaking through, right? Because there's a thing in place that didn't need to be put in place. And I can. I get the. I mean, I've done it a ton and I've almost always regretted it, you know, because then they may say, you know, in any of these situations, I mean, the unpacking, it can really be where the magic is. Is the most beneficial versus. Okay, I was just shut down. I'm shut down. You're giving me a consequence. Okay, peace out.

Totally. It's like I said, it's an ultimatum, I think, for people or personalities who you are ready to. Who have disrespected boundaries multiple times, who don't take accountability, who don't acknowledge their hurt, and you're ready to take it to that step.

Well, I think that's an important point. That if this. If this is a. And I think that's an extraordinarily important point. Disrespect after disrespect after disrespect. Okay, now we're having this conversation multiple times. I mean, a lot of, you know, a lot of. On Instagram. Oh, you get disrespected once you shut that shit down. I mean, come on. Like, let's be real. Like, everybody deserves a second chance. But if it's disrespect after disrespect, then, yes, then this is the consequence. But you still. Ladies and a few dudes, you got to. You got to be ready to walk the f away. Right. And that's the hard part. If you're especially. I feel like this seems really common in dating where. Or in a relationship where it's like, it's like being taken advantage of. And if you say, hey, I'm out, you know, if you don't do this and then he doesn't do it, you're like, oh, shit, just kidding. Right. That takes real strength and real clarity. Like, so don't say it unless you're willing to do it. Is, I guess, what, how I'd like to wrap this segment up, you know?

Yes. I mean, if, if you're going to present someone with an ultimatum, then feel good about sticking to it because that also, it's like a promise you're keeping to yourself too. It, that builds confidence. So if you're going to have a consequence or an ultimatum, then be prepared.

To stick with it.

For sure.

Yeah. Yeah. All right. So talking about. Thank you for that. I love it. Talking about imposter syndrome, is that one of the key things that you see in your practice or how, how prevalent is this business of imposter syndrome?

It's prevalent.

Can you just say what it is? Because I feel like some people might have some different ideas. So what is imposter syndrome? And, and then you can keep going.

Sure. Imposter syndrome is when you feel you're, you're not worthy of being of a certain title. You are not capable, you're not accomplished enough. You could have all the degrees, all the accolades, all of the recognition, but you still feel like you're a fraud. And this is common in high achievers, high performers. A client that I've been working with for several years is a very high performing woman in finance and still works on this daily, works on this.

So she might have the big. She might make bank. She's got probably the big title. Maybe she's at Morgan Stanley or wherever she is. Probably some big ass fancy Wall street company and she still feels like, what the f am I doing? When are they going to find out about me? When they're going to find out I'm not good enough. Is that a good assessment? Yeah.

Yeah. And that can show up in not accepting a compliment or praise or just feeling uncomfortable with that visibility, really being uncomfortable and presenting or in meetings. I've had a few clients tell me like, oh, like I know the content, I know I got promoted, I'm deserved to be in this role, but I just black out when it comes to speaking to leadership and presenting And I feel like I have no idea what I'm talking about and why am I there?

So I had a, I had a funny experience. I was an intern at Goldman a long time ago and they were, you know, it was a lot of trying to really promote, I mean, as you can imagine, very male dominated. I mean, finance still is, but really trying to promote more female leadership, more women speaking up and so forth. And they use this funny metaphor. It was like, it was this, all these people were in a boardroom and, and the, and the guy speaking, the guy leading it was like, listen, I've got a really, really important project and I need volunteers. And I'm going to tell you what it is and I want you, you know, if you really, if you feel like you're qualified, this is a really big, big opportunity. So I want you to. I'm looking for volunteers. This is a, and it's men and women. This is a project on breastfeeding. And then they go around the room and it's like you're seeing the thought bubbles in the women's head, like, oh shit, I had such a hard time breastfeeding and I didn't breastfeed. I only breastfed for one month. Geez, I only breastfed, you know, like all the thought bubbles in the women's heads. And again, this is a, this is just a little funny story where all these women are disqualifying themselves because, you know, they didn't breastfeed perfectly or they did it three years ago. And then you have like all the guys like, oh yeah, my wife breastfed. I know everything about breast, right? And it's such a funny little metaphor story, metaphorical story where women, so many women will overthink and second guess and the guys. And I realize this is, people are going to want to like hate me because these are major gender stereotypes. But they're stereotypes because they, they often are true, right? The guys are like, my wife breastfed, I was breastfed. I remember, you know what I mean? And I just think of like how often women, to the point of the high achieving woman in finance that you're, you're coaching. And probably a lot of them where it's at second guessing and that feeling like, I don't have it perfect, so I'm not going to say anything. But so often the guys will say, I don't need it perfect, I need to raise my hand, I'll figure that shit out.

Yes. Which is why even women don't apply for certain jobs. I don't have the statistic right off.

The top of my head. But they, I know exactly what you're talking about. It's like in a list of like 10 qualifications, if, if a guy has like three, he'll apply. I mean, it's just this huge mismatch. And if the woman has, she'll need to have at least eight. Right. And again, this, these are, we're kind of generalizing here, but I've seen that stat that a woman will not apply if she doesn't have the majority of the criteria. And generally speaking, men will apply even if they have a, you know, just a disqualifying number. It's like, I'll figure it out. Yes.

Yes, it's. And communication is one part of that. So in my corner of the world and Internet, I try to at least help women own their space and show up. Even if it's imperfectly show up, get better at saying what they want, asking for what they want. And listen, it's sometimes it's not going to win you the popularity contest.

It's not. Oh, it often isn't. Yeah. And that, and that becomes sort of a self perpetuating cycle. Like if you can be okay not winning the popularity contest in the short run, you dominate in the long run. Right. I mean, there are a lot of memes on, like, be willing to be your sole voice. Be willing to, you know, not need the applause. Be willing to feel a little lonely for a while. Because if you're willing to play the long game, right, that's that sense of self and not feeling popular for the short term, I mean, it changes you. Let me come back to something related to the imposter syndrome phenomenon. Fake it till you make it. What's your take?

I would rather approach it as act as if.

I like that. Okay.

Yeah. Someone actually told me this at a panel event in New York and it stuck with me. It stuck with me. Act as if. So it's not like, okay, be fake. Fake it until you make it, but act as if you are that person already. Visualize that higher, more confident, more articulate that version of yourself. The person who already did the thing.

Yeah, yeah. No, I love that. And that, I mean that, that feels better because I'm not a big fake until you make a person either. But this, this idea of act as if and stepping into that version of yourself, that, that does feel more worthy and, and accomplished. Right. I mean, then it's like your, your getting your nervous system used to that feeling is a, is that. I feel like that's a great Practice. So for, for the women, especially for those who tend to be a little more conflict avoidant, listening to this or watching this, what is the number one thing that you would advise them to do or not do?

Identify what you want. Take a minute or two. Because I think again, sometimes in conflict, we get so fired up and we feel the feelings and we're upset, we're angry in the moment, we almost lose sight of, okay, what is the end goal here? What do I want? What am I hoping for? Identify what you want and operate from that place and so, and find the voices, the voice to say, look, I hear you've had a long day, but, like, I really would like you to handle this by.

Okay. Okay. So, yeah, keep, keep going. I was gonna ask you a question. Keep going with your, with your example. Yes.

So like, almost like when you, when you know your end goal, it helps. Saying the things a little bit easier might be scary still. But think about your end goal, what you want, and own that. Really, really let it sit and get comfortable with it. So that if you get pushback, if you get, oh, look, I'll do it tomorrow, like, oh, my God, you know, you're just nagging and it's just so. You're always on my case. It's like, well, and this is what I need. This is what I need done. I've asked you about this a few times and it, I don't want to be the one handling it. So I really want you to handle this one or I need you to take care of this or whatever. But like, think about the end goal and sink in, get comfortable with that so that you can speak to it more confidently.

Yeah, clarity is. I talk about peace in the same way. I mean, peace to me is one of the most underrated states of being. Right. Especially we're in a very stressed out culture. But clarity, I put in a similar category. Clarity punches so above its weight. And when you first started talking, when you're like, well, what do you want? And I'm like, I'm up here. I'm like, okay, I want all this big stuff, right? But you wisely said, no, no, no, bring it into the moment. Right? And yes, I mean, those are not mutually exclusive. You know, I want more career success, I want more social media followers, I want blah, blah, blah, blah. But this idea of like, what do I want in this moment where there may be some conflict avoidance, like just having that, that, that clarity is. I just feel like it's such a, and, and owning it. Right. In a way that it's like, yeah, I deserve it. Like, I deserve to be able to say. I mean, my husband and I, we just went. And I'm not. I don't want to talk about my marriage too much on the show, but this is a good thing. We were talking the other day about something in our. In our relationship, and it was like, well, I need to be able to say no and not feel bad. And he's like, well, you totally can. And I was like, thank you. Right? And because for a long time, I didn't feel like it, and I never pressed that with him, which is on me. Right? But I mean, you know, next I'm like, well, he wouldn't. You know, I. It's like I'd see the disappointment in his body language. I don't want to disappoint my husband. You know what I mean? And so we finally had this, like. It was like this great breakthrough, right? And because it was like, well, I. I need to be able to say no without feeling like I'm in trouble. And he's like, well, of course you can. And I'm like, okay. And it sounds so dumb, but I'm willing to say it, everybody, because I know I'm not alone. I know millions of people. And again, whether it's male or female, whether it's in a marriage or a different relationship, this idea of. Of being able to talk about, hey, something in a dynamic where it's like, you know, we both want to please each other and serve each other and honor each other, but sometimes the timing doesn't work, or I don't feel like I can do the thing, and then, you know, the passive aggression begins or the avoiding begins and all that stuff. Just because we've been, especially as women, habituated to. Not to. To people, please. And so in my relationship, at times, I would just avoid it altogether. And then he really felt bad, right. But I didn't want to disappoint. So what's better? What's easier than disappointing? Not doing anything, right? Which is, like, bad for the relationship, right? So in my. My attempt to avoid that conflict and that feeling like, now I'm disappointing him, I would withdraw. And then. And that felt bad for him, Right?

Right. I love that it's. And sounds so simple when you say it. Like, I need to say no without feeling bad. But there's power in that.

Major power. Like, I felt so much better.

Yeah.

And he's like, better, right? Because I was holding it like he had. I mean, this is a thing, and this is what's so common, especially in marriage, but I think in a lot of important close relationships, I mean, we hold so much back because it's scary, because we don't want to hurt somebody else, because we're. We're busy and exhausted. You know what I mean? So it's like so much easier not to get into it. But you pay a price for not getting into it.

Oh, I tell my clients all the time, choose your discomfort. There's discomfort speaking up now, and then there's going to be discomfort in not speaking up later. That's worse. So it's a way to reframe and not feel so burdened by the thing. Choose your discomfort.

I love that, Raelle. And I would just add to that by saying, you can choose your discomfort now or later, but you're going to pay. I mean, it reminds me when you take out a big freaking high interest loan, because that's what we're talking about. The tax you pay and you pay and it compounds. I mean, talking about finance, compounding tax at a high tax rate, what you pay down the road is a lot higher than if you just do it now. And here, this is one of my dad's. My dad has all these great things that he's taught me. One of my favorite quotes from him is the best time to plant a tree 40 years ago. Second best time to plant a tree is today. And I think about that in what you and I are talking about, right? Especially for people in marriages that have, I mean, years and even decades. And you're like, no, it's just the way it is. Guess what, people, it's not. It doesn't have to be. Or, and again, with parents, like, it doesn't just have to be marriage. So many relationships can get transformed instantly. I've seen it. I've done it in my own life. And so I know there's that heavy feeling of, it's too late, why bother? They're never going to change. That's bullshit. They may not change. But if I always feel like if I show up differently, there's a damn good chance the dynamic will change. That's been my experience.

If we just rely on, oh, it's just how it's always been, it's how it's going to be, then nothing would ever change, then why address any dynamic or any problem ever?

Yeah. So, yeah, let me ask you this. This final question, and it's not. It may. It may be an easy answer. It may not. I'm not sure. But you referenced trust earlier on which has been a big one for me to cultivate. And again, game changer, right? Game changer. Like, I can have these harder conversations because I trust myself. I trust the universe so much more. So how can women cultivate trust in themselves after years of so much. Of just so much doubt and second guessing?

Start small and keep the promises you make to yourself. Like if it's something like, hey, I'm going to work out for 15 minutes today, or I'm going to journal for 10 minutes and write down five things, or I am going to whatever it might be, but keep those promises to yourself. I really believe in that because it's. You reaffirm what your mind is thinking and what you want to do, and then you do the thing. And it is a confidence builder.

Yeah.

What would be another thing? What would you add? I'm curious to hear what.

Yeah, thanks. I think I would add saying. I mean, this is one of my favorite phrases. It's say the scary thing.

Right.

And it's so easy just to avoid and then to rationalize. Like, call friends. Call yourself out when you're rationalizing. Call yourself out when you're making excuses. I mean, because when you realize I'm avoiding the thing and if you're being honest with yourself. To me, integrity is one of the more integrity I have, the more magnetic and authentic I am. Right. If I'm willing to own when I'm out of integrity and I'm out of integrity, I will say this. I'm out of integrity when I'm avoiding something that's scary. Now, sometimes your point's the right one. Sometimes you need to buy time. And I'm a huge believer. Like, if you're going to blow up and make it worse, then buy time. And it doesn't have to be an hour from now. Can be two days, three days, whatever. Being able to show up and say the scary thing and have that difficult conversation when you're grounded and you've really. You're clear on your intention. I'm saying this for this reason, like the clarity that you were talking about. So to me, it's really about giving yourself that time and space to have the clarity to get into integrity if you've been avoiding something. But that's it. It's saying, I'm willing to call myself out when I'm avoiding something. Because you can't fake your energy. You think you're high. You think it's just inside of you. It's not. And that's as somebody now that's in my 50s who's gotten it wrong? Plenty.

Right.

That's part why I'm doing the show. Keeping it real. Everybody. That it's like, it's so much easier to not say the thing. It's so much easier just to swallow it. And I think that's why I got so fired up, you know, half an hour ago when we were talking, because. And it's the tax thing that we were just talking about. Own your discomfort now or own a hell of a lot more discomfort and resentment and maybe an inflammatory disease. Right. It all, it all compounds, and not to the good. Oh, by the way, it actually can compound to the good. I think the more that you have these. I mean, my husband and I are. It's like we wish we'd have had these conversations a long time ago that would have compounded to the good. Like you and you're cute. Eric. I don't, I've never seen him, but I know he's cute because of what you described. Right? So I, I, I, I just, I do feel like that Building trust, you're. And I love your thing about, like, keeping your, your, your own promises to yourself, right? Because that's where trust begins. But I also believe our, our relationships are our greatest teachers, whether with our little ones, our bambinos, because they teach us so much. Just wait till what your kids teach you and then come talk to me in 10 years.

Love to pick your brain as the years go.

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you know, I, I mean, intimate relationships, marriages, I mean, they're sacred for a reason, right? Because they show us those parts. I mean, our kids show us those blind spots and those parts of ourselves that are hard. But to me, it's often next level with a romantic relationship in particular. And so to, you know, to not avoid the thing, but to, you know, to show up and say it, even when it's scary, and to build that openness and trust and intimacy and take off the mask a little bit. That compounds in time, you know, So, I mean, and if I can trust myself. So, you know, you asked me about, I asked you, and then you asked me about this whole business of trust. I think that builds trust. And even to the point you made about talking to one of your parents who couldn't give you what you really. Maybe they couldn't give you that closure, but you were detached from it. But you did the thing, and that builds trust in yourself because you did the thing. You didn't avoid it. It's not a theory. I mean, that to me, trust is not a Theory. It's like courage. You don't just get to say I'm, I'm courageous. It's tested you. You're, you're courageous when you're tested. Did you do the scary thing? Yes or no?

Yes. Yes. And actually one more, one more thing I'll add really quickly is if something happens that doesn't sit right with you, I think women are quick to freeze or fawn or nervously laugh or just maybe you don't have to say anything. Maybe you don't right away. You don't have to say anything right away as you're building up this muscle. But don't laugh, don't engage back, don't enable the negative behavior. If someone makes a joke at your expense publicly, I don't know. But instead of just chuckling along to swipe the, or sweep the awkward moment under the rug, don't, don't give in to giving a reaction just to make it okay. At least just take a pause. And that right there, being into your instinct of feeling like, wait, what? And at least in that moment, you're honoring that instead of just pretending that it's all good. I mean, I personally wish I learned that years ago because my go to is always to fawn and just be like, oh, whatever, just pretend like it didn't happen. Just make it okay for everybody. Meanwhile, I'm the one that's in discomfort.

Not okay, yes, no, I love that. And for people who aren't watching, I'm just giving a little heart, little hand heart to Rael because that is so common. And here's what I just want to add to that. And we'll wrap up when you mess it up, because you probably will until you become a master at it. Give yourself grace notice, right? Because so much of making these kinds of really profound changes, and this is a profound one, someone says something that you're uncomfortable with and you like, you say, you laugh it off, you just nod. We have been so habituated to make that okay because that keeps us safe, right? I mean, there is a lot of evolution. Why, particularly as women, we do that, right? So just for anybody who's like, yes, I'm going to do it differently, I'm going to do exactly what Rael said. I'm either going to keep a blank space, I might say, you know what, that doesn't make me feel very comfortable. Like I'm going to reply differently, I'm going to step up in a different way. But when you slip back into the habit and you and you and you laugh and you take it. Give yourself grace back to age, gratitude, grace, empathy for yourself. Right. Cause that's where it starts. And just know you'll have a chance to practice it again. But that is a. I'm so glad you raised that because that's so common. And I've gotten it wrong so many times. And then I got it wrong. Like I crucified myself like 10 times over. I'd be like, how the hell did I not have more integrity and stand up for myself in that moment? And that made it way worse. Like now I've really, like it was bad. I just made it way worse on myself. I'm not doing that anymore. And I don't want any of you guys if you mess it up. Just know millions of years of evolution have caused you to keep yourself safe in a really uncomfortable moment. And you're going to have so many chances to do it again. So just commit to yourself. You're going to keep practicing until you master it.

Yes, yes. Keep us in mind because it's a work of broadening.

Yeah, no, this stuff is, I mean, it is so habituated into our nervous systems, into us, you know, as, you know, as in our, in our culture, socially. It takes a lot to make this change. And that's, you know, going back to the beginning of our conversation. And it's like it starts with the theory of change, learning it and then practicing. And I like how you keep saying in the low stakes situation, right? Because the more I feel like we practice, you know, slowing down, keeping our voices low, practice saying the thing, the scary thing in these low stakes situations, the better off as the stakes get higher and the consequences become that much more meaningful. Like that is how in my experience, I've been able to create what I always call a virtuous cycle. Right. We're so used to talking about vicious cycles. One thing happens and it spins out of control. I've really created, you know, in my life, I've really tried to create a virtuous cycle where it spirals like it's, it's like, okay, cool, I'm changing these things.

Yes.

All right, Raelle, I'm going to give you the last word. We've covered a lot of ground, but any last nugget of advice or anything else you want to leave anybody with before we wrap up, and it's perfectly okay to say, no, I'm good.

I feel like we covered a lot. But yeah, practice, build that muscle memory. Confidence is a muscle. Good communication is a muscle, and you have to work it out. Like you would work out at the gym. So keep working out, keep practicing repeating and use the gym analogy when you need to.

Yeah, no, I love that. Amazing. All right. Thank you so much for being on Getting Open. Rael Altano, you have been an amazing guest with so many great takeaways. Thanks for being on my show. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Andrea. I truly appreciate it and I'm in awe of everything you do too. So keep it up.

Thank you. Oh gosh guys, thanks so much for tuning into that that I feel so cleansed and you know, if you hear me speaking with a low voice a little more slowly, you'll be like yeah, I remember that episode. There are so many actionable takeaways. I hope they're are multiple ones that you are going to take with you and start to implement today. Whether it's act as if using that lower slower voice calling, not even calling yourself out, just noticing if you're in that people pleasing or fawning where we spent a few minutes at the end and I got pretty fired up. All these things are to me opportunities to reprogram yourself. And I'm, I'm really glad to have brought you a show today that was so chock full of actionable ways to do that. Okay. If you want to get to know Rael better you can follow her on her socials. Well with Raelle her name is spelled R A E L E. You can subscribe to her newsletter at well with raelle.com again that's well W E L L W I T H R a e l e.com she does one on one coaching. She has a group like a monthly group session and honestly I feel like if again if you're kind of somebody that identifies with being conflict avoidant or in that people pleasing or somebody that deals with imposter syndrome, getting to know her work and taking advice from her could be the game changer that changes everything for you. That's our show. As always, if you aren't already following or subscribing please do so wherever you get the show, on YouTube, on Spotify, iHeart, you name it. As always, I love when you write to me@gettingopenyourtango.com Love your comments so appreciate it and we'll see you in the next episode. Thanks so much for tuning in Sam.