Chat Live with Ralph and Cassie N.!

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The intro jingle always gets me laughing. You've heard it, I don't know how many times. It was pretty good, guys. Welcome, it's your boy Raffaellito back once again for another live chat with yours truly and new character unlocked here, folks. I got Miss Cassie, the uber lovely and talented Miss Cassie, here with us today to talk all about all things, well, attachment and your life story and how you got to where you're at now and the work that you do. So we want to hear all about it. But guys, before we get started, if you could, as you come in, give yours truly a little like and subscribe, follow, whatever, however it works, wherever you're watching this, that would really help out a great deal. So without further ado, Miss Cassie, tell us about yourself.

Hi, I'm Miss Cassie, and I am a pediatric occupational therapist, but I've also worked with children and adults with varying needs, including attachment disorders and, and diverse learning and sensory and self-regulation issues. So I'm also a PhD candidate and fellow, which means I haven't finished my dissertation, and I teach here in this classroom. I teach child development, and it also includes emotional development and attachment theory, divorce, co-parenting, its effects on children, the importance of grit and resilience, and many other topics. And I, I was born to do this. I love it more than anything else professionally that I have accomplished. Um, and my aha moment, the reason that I reached out to Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer, is about 3 years ago while sitting on my severe dismissive avoidance couch, I wrote my lecture on attachment theory 6 weeks before a brutal discard. And it was shocking, like what you probably can describe. And, and I was just thinking about all the patterns that I knew from childhood. And it was my aha moment that those repeat in our most vulnerable relationships. So from that moment on, my brain kind of looked at human behavioral patterns like an electrical engineer. They can see where their wiring might be crossed or might be short-circuiting. And that's That's the way that I look at human emotional behavioral, behavioral patterns. And it's through a unique lens of understanding my childhood, which was from a severe dismissive avoidant father and a severe anxious attachment mother. And the polar opposites gives me— what would you expect? A fearful avoidant attachment style. And now I can see my own patterns and see my own triggers. And I can also ask random questions to people and, and really figure out their childhood, their, their attachment to their partner and beyond from some of those, those first patterns. So I reached out to Ralph Brewer Brewer Brewer because I was impressed with his podcast and some of his material, saying I think some of the things that I teach about and lecture about and research about and then also understand post-divorce dating and vulnerable relationships, that I can see those patterns that might be helpful to your subscribers and your audience. So I appreciate your belief and trust in me for possibly adding some unique perspectives today. I can't hear you. I can't hear you. I can't hear you.

I had my microphone muted. That'd probably be why.

I don't know if it's my technology on this side, which would really make me—

so anyway, let's try that again, shall we? So you think I've done this before. So anyway, um, it's a pleasure having you here. It's awesome to have a real professional who knows what the hell they're talking about on this stuff instead of just numbskulls like myself who kind of have to learn the hard way and stuff. You have, you know, real education behind this, real data, real personal experience and everything. So this is awesome. So it's a real treat for me. Thank you for coming today. I appreciate it. On a personal level, if we may, and as always, as I tell everybody, if we ever get to a line— you know this better anyway— if I ever get to a line where you're like, 'Yeah, we don't want to go there,' awesome. But with that being said, uh, you became, as a result of childhood and all this fun stuff, a what we call the fearful avoidant type. Most of the guys that I work with, their wife or long-term girlfriend is probably more of the dismissive avoidant type, but still there's some commonalities there. Um, one of the commonalities is, wouldn't you know it, those women— maybe you can speak with experience— tend to match up with very anxiously attached men, and they're very preoccupied with the relationships, really seeking a lot of reassurance in a relationship. But you just dropped a little Little nugget of wisdom there of you had your aha moment when you were in a relationship with a very dismissive avoidant man. So in your experience, have you dabbled in, in both sides of the fence, so to speak? You've been on the avoidant side, you've been on the anxious side. You tend to attract both, or how does all that work?

Yes, all of it. All, all of that works by attracting both sides. And so I try to explain a fearful avoidant being like a seesaw. So if I'm with a more dismissive avoidant partner, then I become much more anxious. If I'm with an anxious partner, I become much more avoidant. And I can see again, I didn't know, I didn't know what I didn't know back in the days, even though I could spout off all of the separation anxiety stages and all of those kind of things. I just did not understand that my circuitry was causing me to react in ways that I can see now that I couldn't see then. So yes, so I have my longest relationships have been severe anxious, severe avoidant, and several FAs in between. And again, I can, I can even see it by their, their family structure and, and what child maybe was the, the class clown and got more attention from a big family. And I can see all of those patterns play out. And what we need from a relationship. So yes, I have, I have definitely been, you know, again, like the seesaw, maybe one person I will date will be a dismissive avoidant, and I'm like, no, I need more closeness. And then maybe I'll be attracted to, you know, in the next, in the next one, I'm attracted to someone who's more anxious, and I feel more claustrophobic and wanting to run. Obviously, with being more earned secure now, I'm aware of my patterns and I can be able to, to voice how I'm feeling and when I'm coming back. So I need to go play tennis and I'll, I'll be back in a couple of hours or something like that. So I know what my body and what my triggers are telling me. So then I can be much better at communication to others and, and even gently try to help them with theirs.

Very good. Does this— is knowing— does you knowing all of this and your pattern recognition and so forth, does that in fact get in the way of legit, uh, personal relationships? Yeah. So the fact that you're— are you almost like crystal ball? Yeah, I was gonna say, are you almost like— if you're sitting across the table from a guy, does your brain immediately go to, uh-oh, I just heard like some keywords come out of his mouth right there. Oh, here we go. Is that fair to them, I guess, is the question. Um, does that prohibit you from forming romantic relationships in a way, because there is something that we have to say, you give a little bit of leeway, you kind of let some of that go, you enjoy the moment, the romantic moment of being with them, you don't want to hyperanalyze. But at the same time, I could see if you're really looking for a long-term partner, you inevitably have to go there eventually.

Yes, um, I think sometimes it, it's awareness. Awareness is only the first step. So if they're more open to Hey, I noticed that, you know, you took, you know, after this happened, then you took a little bit time to reset. And I said, I retreat to reset too. And we all have different, we all have, you know, whether it's a couple of hours or a couple of days, I have that pattern too. So I don't really come out and say, you're a fearful avoidant leading dismissive and you're doing this, or you are severe anxious and you're doing this. I actually I really try not to do that, but I can be able to ask, are you more like your mom? Are you more like your dad? Or even songs, even like, you know, just understanding what they are driven to achieve can tell me some of those patterns without being such a therapist-sounding, therapist-sounding on the other side of the table.

I can see that being a very unromantic thing. And we have a lot of guys in my world, same kind of thing, very hyperanalytical guys, a lot of engineers, a lot of guys on the autism spectrum and so forth. And they'll be sitting across from a woman, and they will kind of— I don't know if catastrophize is the right word, but be looking for something to go, 'Duh,' you know, in every little thing. And I always joke with these guys, the poor woman across from you has no idea that she's being studied and analyzed, and the poor thing sneezes the wrong way and the guy's like, 'I'm out of here.' So they become very hyper-attuned to all these little things, to a detriment to just enjoying life, basically. So that's why I brought that up. It's something I can quite a bit.

Um, yes, so sorry, the door shut. Um, but I think it also comes with perspective-taking. Like, I can see that I've had 3 degrees and multiple experiences from being able to analyze both from being a therapist and from being a college lecturer and from my post-divorce dating experiences that I can see the patterns much faster than even more analytical ones. And so I think, I think it's just being able to give grace and, and, oh, maybe because of this, we, we are driven to do this, or maybe because you were a really high-performing athlete that you need to be able to have this outlet. And so I don't try to diagnose, or I don't try to evaluate. And one of the things that I've told a lot of them is, I'm not evaluating you to dismiss you. I'm evaluating, I'm analyzing so I can understand.

So compatibility too.

Yes, I mean, so I can understand you and maybe we understand each other and this will be, you know, this will be a great adventure together. But I'm not evaluating you to dismiss you. I'm not evaluating you to judge you. I'm evaluating and analyzing so I can understand. And I do know with fearful avoidance that trust. Because, you know, where we had that polar opposite and we're always looking for authenticity and trust, that trust is a really hard thing for us. So sometimes I think maybe some of your men with that analytical brain is also reacting from that place. And so when they're like, so if I don't see them again, if this is their only first date, am I gonna have a great date and be like, that was awesome and that was a great experience, I'm still gonna live my life and keep going even if they don't choose me, or if I'm gonna hold on tight and worry that they're, that they're going to dismiss me. And, and I think that that's a big growth in my own, in my own journey, is I've lived this many years and I've pushed through challenges, whether it was alone or with someone else. And I, I hope that I have many more years and, and many more things that I get to, you know, I get to accomplish. So, um, Yeah, I think I have tried so hard to learn how to live in the moment that I'm not trying to forecast too much. I'm not trying to look in the past too much, that I'm literally trying to live in the moment and understanding my triggers and possibly understanding theirs so I don't— so I don't trigger them into whether it's an escape or a claustrophobic or like, you know, hold on to me tight moment.

You know, you know as well as I do, in the romantic realm if, if you don't have that analysis and if you don't have that knowledge that makes you see those little moments, if you, if you go on autopilot, so to speak, based upon your attachment and everything else, I'll be damned, anxious guy tends to attract or be attracted to, probably a combination of both, the polar opposite. It would seem opposites attract. There was that song, was that Paula Abdul or whatever? There's, there's something to that. So in your— do you have to find yourself and check yourself in terms of, oh, there's something, something about this guy makes me go, uh, and then you have to say, well, hold on, hold on a second, Cassie. What is it about this guy that makes me go, huh? Is it in fact— do those anxious guys— a long-winded way of saying, do the anxious guys give you the, uh, a little bit more than the dismissive guys?

Um, again, I think it varies depending on even where I am in my chapters of stress in life, because if I'm solid in like, oh, I'm making, you know, progress in my dissertation and I'm doing this and I'm doing that. Like, I might actually really tend towards, you know, the more independent and, you know, so we are, I don't know, running, playing tennis, whatever together. And then when I need more support, when I feel like I'm falling apart and I need more co-regulation, that I might be more towards needing that.

Gotcha. So it's, it's fair to say that both, both are flavors of insecurity. Both extremes there. So when you are feeling—

oh, sorry.

So when you are feeling somewhat insecure in the moment, things aren't going so well, drama, this and this and this, a guy who is more anxious in his temperament is going to be pretty loving, doting, affectionate, make sure you're okay, check on you every now and then. And that feels good, and it makes you feel like somebody cares about me, this guy's awesome. And but you got to kind of check yourself of like, yeah, but this may get a little bit too much. And if this persists and I'm in one of my secure modes and everything's going great and he's still pestering me every 5 minutes, he'd be like, all right, this— I, I did it again. I got with another one. And the flip is for a lot of our guys that, you know, we find ourselves like, oh man, I'm 6 months into this relationship with this new woman and I'm chasing her just like I chased my ex-wife. Here we go again. The, the new relationship energy kind of subsides a little bit and then the, the real us kind of bubbles to the surface. It's very interesting how that works. So we got— I'm looking to make sure we got any, uh, somebody said, hey, it's Roma Army, says Chloe. That's the name of another, um, female content creator person. I think she's saying you look like her, but you don't at all. So I'm not sure what that means. That the woman she's talking about has tattoos all over, if it's the woman I'm thinking of, has tattoos like up to her neck or something. I don't know. So just in case you saw that, you're like, huh, that's what she's saying. So there you go. And Mr. Love Truth says, stop chasing, right? Well, I guess your definition of chasing here, um, like, up for, up for debate on what exactly that means. But for the most part, if you're a guy that's always the pursuer, pursuer, and you find that the women you're going after are always running the hell away from you in one way or another, then yeah, it probably would benefit you from taking a step back and go, what am I doing here?

Would you agree? Yes. And I'm gonna do— since I'm in my lecture, um, classroom, I am going to say how I introduce the emotional development and attachment theory lecture. And I— and most people start off on more of explaining and supporting the anxious and, and saying some negative things against the avoidant. I try to— I'm always trying to teach perspective. So I flip it and I say, take out a piece of paper. And I want you to write down when you felt claustrophobic. It could be your parents, a best friend, a new roommate that you have here in college. It could be a romantic relationship, it could be a best friendship. Whatever it is, write down when someone made you feel claustrophobic. And, and we go around, and I— and then I say, okay, now write how you reacted, what did you do about it, and did it work? So I think when I take it that flip side of the coin, because we can all say maybe our parents you know, my parents stopped by and they did this and we felt a little claustrophobic, or they're calling us 15 times, love them, I'm not saying that they shouldn't, but we still, we feel a little claustrophobic. Or even animals. I have a cat that, you know, you can't even get close to and it's licking me to death and it literally makes me feel claustrophobic. We can all kind of relate to that feeling and what we're going to do, we're going to retreat, we're going to back up. And I say, that's what's happening inside of an avoidance mind and body is some— it's almost like a fear, like, I'm gonna back up. And so I, I think when we take that lens of whenever we felt claustrophobia from anybody, from even an animal, then, then we can kind of start empathizing and understanding. Like, you're not going to chase it, you're not going to tame a feral cat by chasing it, right? You have to be consistent and show love and back up. And it's that dance to get to gain trust. And I think that when we can look through that lens, then we're not so hard on ourselves— shame and guilt— that we can be able to then have techniques of, all right, so I can ask her to come help me with whatever, something in the garage, something. And then I can bring up, remember that time when we did this? And that starts the connection without it being, I'm trying to be intimate with you. And, and so I think when we can we can see those patterns of how we would help, you know, help those situations. I think that then that gives us a lot more tools to move forward.

Very good, very well put. I love the take a moment in your life when somebody was very smothering to your situation. It's very smothering. You're right, it helps to empathize. And I see all day, every day in my comments and so forth, and material that shows up on my algorithm, a lot of avoidant hate. And they will liken them to narcissists, which I know there's some overlap there, some narcissistic personality disorder and so forth. But it's a lot of demonizing. It's that, well, you have to just empathize with their wiring and what got them to that point and realize that when somebody pursues, pursues, that— and they're the person that very much values their independence. And a lot of guys can kind of relate to that. We just want to be left the hell alone, damn it. Um, but the thing is, is that for your average dude combined with he's very anxious, preoccupied in his nature, our love, passion, sexuality, whatever you want to call it, all wrapped into one, kind of supersedes that. We think it supersedes that for everybody. Like, they must be so overcome with the feelings like I am that this super closeness, there's no way that could be suffocating. Like, that doesn't even enter to the equation. All the love and everything supersedes all of that, right? And the answer is no. It's like 'Even though I may have feelings for you in that way and stuff, it's still, you know, give me space, dude or girl or whatever it is.' And that's really difficult. It's like, no, we're supposed to put that aside and just, I guess, intertwine as two Lego pieces forever.

Well, I think we're using our work and sports and hyper-independent and, and, and pushing forward— like, I think we're using that in our relationships to win what we're— to win what we're wanting. So if I push more, work harder, do all this stuff, that I'm going to get what I want. But then, like you said, we a lot of times are attracted to our opposite of what we have. So maybe I would want someone that's more punctual, maybe I want someone more organized than I am, because two disorganized people, you know, might fall a little bit apart. And, and so, you know, so we're attracted to what we are missing But yet in that, we can just go over the bell curve into the other side. I'm going to give them more, I'm going to give them more, I'm going to give them more. Um, and again, I think we can trace and everything, you know, people laugh at me even or pick at me saying that psychology and everything traces back to childhood. And I say, well, my son had no idea that he was stung 10 times by a wasp nest. That no one's fault. Um, but still to this day, if a fly goes by— and he doesn't know, he's never been told, you know, all that kind of stuff that happened when he was— before he has recollection of memories, 18 months, 2 years— and even a fly goes by his ear, and it's a hyperreactivity.

Interesting.

That solidified in his fight-or-flight brain without psychology, without someone telling him, without seeing a picture, without anybody talking about it. That is in his brain chemistry. So I think there, there are some reflex trigger patterns that we can start addressing and understanding to where we can be better connected with our partners. Um, and I think, you know, of course I have to talk about theory, I have to teach theorists in my class and all that kind of stuff. But a lot of people talk about Balby, love him, and then Ainsworth to get, you know, to, to get some of our terms that we're using all the time, and it's all over social media. But there is one that I talk about a lot that I think is doesn't have, um, as much attention, and I think it's incredibly important. It's Erik Erikson, um, and his psychosocial theories of development is that if you haven't solidified one step before going to the next, you're going to still have, um, you're still going to have patterns from the first one. So, um, the easiest way to start this is, you know, with babies, you know, rolling sitting up, sitting, crawling, walking, all, and running, you know. So we go into patterns, and I can see even on the tennis court if a child— sometimes, most of the time— is a child skips crawling because that's the reciprocal pattern, that I can see it even in their volleys because— or even throwing a baseball because it's their opposite side, right? So I can see those movement patterns, and we can also see it in emotional patterns. So the first one is trust versus mistrust. And the virtue that is developed then is hope, and that's birth to 18 months, and that's a critical period, as you know, for our attachment talks today. The second one is 18 months to 3 years, and it's autonomy, which is independence versus shame and doubt, and that's how we develop our will— the virtue of willpower. Am I going to push through these obstacles, or am I going fight or flight? Fear or fun, right? And then there's other stages, and I don't need to give a lecture, um, but it's going to develop— it's going to transition into— from 19 to 40 years, it is intimacy versus isolation. Ding, ding, ding! And the virtue that we developed during that is love. And so you cannot confidently step out on your own— independence, autonomy— or safely let someone in— intimacy— if you are stuck wondering if the world is going to drop you, which is mistrust. So it layers on each other, just like developmental movement patterns that I can do, both fine motor, gross motor, whatever. Emotional development also is, is stair steps on top of each other. So you'll— oh, you say there's— is it okay if I keep going?

Please.

So you talk about the increase in avoidant men— I mean, the increase in avoidant women.

Women, yeah.

And increasing anxious women. Obviously there's still more avoidant men, and— but, um, where our bell curve is changing, our percentages are changing. And why? Everybody wants to know why. Um, and it's not to blame I think parents and hopefully, hopefully society makes the best decision they can with the information they have at the time. I think that's my most forgiving statement is my dad wanted me to be strong. He wanted me to have opportunities he didn't have. My mom wanted me to be a pageant princess and marry a prince and live in a castle happily ever after. They both were wanting me to be the best that I can be. But in that drive became a hyper-independent sports perfectionism, you know, all those things that come with that. So I'm gonna read lyrics to a song, and it was produced in the '90s. She knew the answers before most of us were ready for, um, ready for them. We weren't aware of them. And it's Alanis Morissette and and the song is perfect. It says, be a good girl, try a little harder, that simply wasn't good enough to make us proud. I'll live through you, I'll make you what I never was. If you're the best, then maybe so am I compared to him, compared to her. I'm doing this for your own good, you'll make up for what I blew. What's the problem? Why are you crying? Be a good boy, push a little further now. That wasn't fast enough to make us happy. We love you just the way you are if you're perfect.

And when you and I first— when you and I first connected, it was over that video I did about, um, all these avoidant women in our lives and the fact what we see, pattern recognition, what we see again and again from a lot of these women is the lyrics just spelled it out there exactly. We have a lot of women that are pushed and no, you're not good enough unless you succeed at a hyper level. I'm just not going to even pay attention to you unless I see some kind of, oh wow, straight A's, oh wow, you captain of the volleyball team, now I can brag about my daughter's the captain of the volleyball team. And otherwise you get like next to no affection, love and affection, while the messaging is in there. And then a lot of these girls take care of themselves, they become little adults at a young age, they're cooking for themselves, they're taking care of themselves, and then they're Everyone talks about how they, they have an old soul, and they're the girl that everyone hires to be the babysitter because they're just like a little mommy. And they're— I don't know if parentified is the right word or not— they parentify themselves basically. And then they become straight-A students, and then they become corporate lawyers and everything else. And then they marry Mr. Anxious, and then he's— she's very controlling, and she likes things done a certain way, gosh darn it. And she's like the director of the movie, and it must go a certain way. And then the sex stops, and it's and on and on and on. I made a little video about it, and you said, you nailed it. That's what we see again and again. And I think you can personally, if we may relate to a lot of that.

Yes. So dads pushing daughters is— and again, this is not— I wouldn't be the woman I am today, I wouldn't have had any of the opportunities without having sports, without, um, going to college and being able to pay for college with my sports, and and conversations and adventures I've had. I am, and, and still to this day, I love to teach tennis even to adaptive needs students. So I am very grateful for it. But Newton says, as simple as we can put it, with a reaction is a reaction. So as someone asked me how to— in the hotel, when the— after the— after a tree fell in my house, and he asked me, how can I make my daughter strong like you? And I said, tennis. Tennis is a very unique mental sport that you can be down to the last point and you can say, this is ridiculous, and come all the way back and win. There's no time limit, all of those things. And I said, you can say, this is ridiculous, and come back and win. It's one— it's a very unique sport in that. And I said, so the only reason I'm standing in front of you today, after, after a kidney tumor, after a front— not having a front tooth— what after, after divorce, after all of the things that and the half a million pound tree falling on my house with branches coming through the ceiling where I was standing. The only reason I can stand to you and tell you the story is because I was not ready to shake someone's hand. I was not ready for this to be over. And, and that gives me that fight, that resilience that I can push through. But what's the— that's the action. What's the reaction? I can sometimes have very much difficulty with relationships when I get home to turn take off that armor and need co-regulation from my partner. And so back to dads pushing daughters— daughters need a place to be loved just for existing. So what's happening is in an avoidant attachment woman, after, you know, maybe dating and then marriage and then maybe kids, they feel like they're failing. And we know that guilt. I did something bad, I made a bad choice, whatever, right? You know, but shame is I am bad. And so they feel like they're failing. They know that the dead bedroom is happening. They know, and because they're just used to excelling, they're used to trying to be perfect. And maybe they did reach a high level. I played two sports in college. Maybe they reached that level, but how can we How, how can we feel like we're winning when raising children is, you know, it's not, it's a day-to-day winning. It's not, you know, and so she grew, so back to Dad's pushing, she grows up a hyper-independent who views adults' partners emotional, adult partners' emotional needs as an invasive performance she wants to escape.

Yep, that's it.

And that's the reason that they pull back and they run. And then the opposite side for more anxious men, um, that mothers a lot of times are not getting fulfillment from home, and so their son becomes their primary emotional caretaker. So they, like me, in being hypervigilant of nonverbal cues and spaces and all, you know, everything of pattern recognition that's what they're doing to make sure that they are being perfect to their mother, whatever mood she might be fluctuating in, they're trying to care, they're trying to take care of her. So what's happening in adult relationships when everything happens and something happens, we are trying to do what basically we're trying to make the— we're trying to have the ending of the Disney movie and we're trying to solidify those gaps that we weren't able to do in childhood. We're trying to rewrite the story in our adult relationships. We want the story to end the way that we thought it would end, in the castle, in with the prince, you know, whatever it might be. And so it's just that dynamic. And, and how do we change this? It's how we talk to our children. How do we help today is we use awareness as the first step, and we start looking at our triggers of why we're pulling back, why we're pushing forward. And, um, and looking at what do I need to be co-regulated with my partner.

Very good. It's unfortunate, and it's interesting, the rise of the avoidant woman. I mean, we could have a whole video on that. I— it's what I've seen as well. But you, you wonder if it's, you know, just a, a biased perspective on all this because of who I'm talking to and everything. But it would seem that at least in the popular culture, we see a lot of things pushing in that direction, a lot of high-achieving You really— and by the way, I completely understand and empathize with this— you don't want to depend on a man for your livelihood. I think that's where it begins, which, if I was a woman, I would say the same thing. I'm not going to completely set aside career and education and fingers crossed I hope this works out, and then if, if not, I'm going to be destitute on the streets. Like, no. So I'm going to work, I'm going to have an education, I'm going to have a degree, I'm going to be able to take care of myself. Well, you're kind of inching towards building the the platform for what could end up being an adult with an avoidant attachment. Not necessarily, but if you stack that on top of parents that aren't so good, on top of I feel like I need to achieve in order to get love, on top of I gotta take care of myself. And I mean, guys, in the comments, how many of you are relating to any of this? Whether it's what she talked about with the enmeshment with your mother and that's affected who you're attracted to, and maybe you're, you're, uh, seeing some similarities with the women that you're attracted to, your wife, ex-wife, and so forth. Let us know in the comments, we would love to hear it. But you know my personal story. I can absolutely relate to every last bit of this. And, um, it's very, very interesting to me that over the years, just, it seems like a day doesn't go by that I don't have some kind of aha moment or some kind of, oh, that's cool, little thing when, when learning all about this. So it's such an interesting world that you and I are in, especially you, being that this is your full-on living here and soon-to-be doctor. When are you going to be a doctor? Just curious. Do you know?

Um, I hope next May. I hope to graduate soon.

That's awesome.

So I hope to do, um, a quasi-experimental design line, um, in the fall and then use the spring to write it up and hopefully graduate in May.

So what's interesting is, from— for me personally, when I look at my parents, my mother was very highly neurotic, still to this day, very anxious, um, anxious in her temperament, probably not so much in her attachment. If I had to look back, my mother and father's love life in that way was kind of— we don't talk about it behind doors kind of thing. So I don't know, they were huggy, but if I had to, uh, look at the little situations, who's hugging who, yeah, it was probably my dad more so than my mom, coming to her more so. And she wasn't the type that was very loving towards animals and things like that. Well, my dad and I were, and that kind of thing. Um, she was a— came from a poor girl in Europe that moved to America and so forth, so it has to do with her upbringing. But, um, You would think maybe I would want to be with more anxious at temperament women because of that. That's what I'm used to. Maybe that's what I'm comfortable with. But oh no, I've swung my pendulum over to I'm attracted to Type A professional, driven, smart type of women. The ditzy blonde thing, that just does nothing for me. But if you got a woman in front of me who's just like, I can talk your ear off and be intelligent, so forth, I'm like, now you have my attention. But, you know, I'm not— hate to belittle my mother, awesome person and everything, but that's not her at all. So makes me go, why am I attracted to the polar opposite in that way? To which you would say, putting words in your mouth, Ralph, you're trying to attain a woman who represents what your mother was really lacking, what she wasn't, what she could have been. And that's what you're— that's what you're looking for. Would you agree with that?

Yes. So we are either going to— we are either going to repeat the pattern or make a conscious decision that we're not. So, and as much as I'm thankful for tennis and thankful for the, the drive and the strength my father gave me, I literally came out of high school— the only thing I knew about who I wanted to marry one day is I wanted to marry the opposite of my father. And who is the opposite of my father? It is ones that are closer to my mother. And my mother makes me feel claustrophobic, and I love her dearly, but that anxious attachment style. So, so I can— you're either going to repeat that pattern because it was familiar and try to end the story in a better, you know, in a better, happier ending, or you're going to go to the opposite side. And, and because you've consciously said, this is, this is what I think I need. And sometimes it's somewhere, right? It's in the middle. Most of the time it's what we need is somewhere in the middle. But that secure attachment, as you've talked about it many times, sometimes it feels boring when we were addicted and used to chaos.

Yeah, I don't even know if I'm consciously doing it throughout my life. It was just like when I look at everybody that ever been any kind of past the very casual phase into something more serious, it has always been that, that template. And I don't think it's me going, this is what I want. It just kind of happens. At least that's how I look at it anyway.

And maybe some of the traits that— that's what, again, what you were hoping she had. And so that's the reason it feels so rewarding to have different conversations or different, um, adventures, escapes, whatever it might be, that you are Maybe you had it, you know, maybe you went on one vacation and then you wanted more of those. And so, so maybe those people are representing some of those things that were more of your, your wants and, and again, um, helping you rewrite the story in a different way.

Did, did your, um, failed relationship with that, uh, dismissive avoidant where you're discarded by him, did that kind of open your eyes more to the plight of the anxious person in the relationship? You're like, oh, this is kind of how this feels.

Yes, a lot of times, just like I asked my class about, you know, when's the last time you felt claustrophobic— when I put it— when the aha, aha moment just kept firing with him, it— then I could look at— then I looked at the previous relationship, and I looked at dating relationships prior to marriage, and I— then I could examine my childhood, and I can examine why my my sister might be, you know, very different attachment style because of her age gap between me and the expectations of me in sports versus possibly, you know, someone else. And so, um, it really was an aha moment of— I mean, it just, it's almost like you just, when you get go down a rabbit hole of, of, of knowledge and information and you get obsessed with that, it's like I could see everybody's patterns and in a moment. And, and it was hard. And, and I'm not saying— I mean, and, and there's some experts and, and coaches that say it's not as discard, you weren't like trash. Yeah, it was. It really was. My stuff was on the front porch and there wasn't even a fight. And, um, it was— we went, we went on a family vacation and, and it was great, and then it wasn't. And with kids and all. And so, yeah, and it's cause— I, I think this is the way I, I kind of phrase it— as it's almost like they're allergic to too much oxytocin. And when it raises as we co-regulate, and, and more and more and more, and then all of a sudden they reach their capacity, and then it is— it's just like my son and hearing a bee, and it is retreat, danger. And, and it's, it's not conscious. And so I'm not saying that you have to you have to put up with that, that you have to— that that's what you need to do. But it's literally because it can hurt. But, you know, it's, it's— they— the only thing their body is telling them is to retreat, is to move back, is to escape. And sometimes it's escaping to not very, um, healthy addictions. Sometimes it's escaping to someone else. But everything in their body is saying, I need to feel relief. I feel Smothered, overwhelmed. Yep, I feel overwhelmed.

This is just a little, little toddler hanging on to me and won't let go.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it was, you're amazing, you're this, you're that, and all the great compliments and, and this and that. And then all of a sudden it was, it was criticisms over nothing. Like, over— I mean, it was very small. And I'm like, but you knew this all this time that you knew I existed. Like, this is not something that's changed. And so I just think in their head, it's a mechanism of trying to rewrite the story.

And yeah, you got it. Rewriting history is what you'll often hear in our world, that she's rewriting history. Why would she say that? I never said that. What you're describing, guys, you know, let us know if you can relate to this. I know a lot of us can. The— there is a honeymoon period of a relationship where the chemicals are just flooding your brain and your body, and we are all as sexual and loving as we've ever been in that first months or years, whatever it is of the relationship. And then we noticed with some of these ladies that we are with, the avoidants, as soon as we got said I do, as soon as we moved in together, as soon as things got structured— and yes, there's an element of boring in there— man, she just shuts off. And she's just like, I'm done, give me, let me out of here, give me space, no, I don't want to do, no, I don't want to do that, no, I don't want to do— and sex stops, obviously, and all that other good stuff. And Men label that as the old bait and switch, that now that she's got me, she can stop the act. And I always say to those men, no, if you went back in time to that new relationship energy, she was turned on, libido was high, she was excited, she was very much in love with you. But now that you are, quote, smothering her, she's running for the hills. We see that all the time in our world, unfortunately. And you're right, along with that comes the rewriting of history, and you you're a demon because of, and you're just like, what just happened? I haven't changed at all.

Yes, and so I think that there is a 3-step process. It's definitely making it more basic, and, but the first step when they're starting to go towards that discard or go towards that escape or go to that pullback is the first step, and we can make excuses for it. It's their emotional availability fades. So you are having deep conversations and/or you are connecting over a glass of wine and dinner or whatever it might be. But there's just, okay, let's just do, let's go, you know, let's be active and do this to where it's weird. It just all of a sudden that dial of emotional availability starts trickling down. And then the second one is the physical warmth. And that's when, the men that you support are really picking up on that. And, and so then it, it might be less intimate, you know, less intimacy, and then it's less kissing, and then it's less hugs, and then it's less touching at all. And then after that, they feel the shame— not guilt— they feel the shame, and then they retreat into isolation, which is what I was talking about with Erikson's stages. And, and I think that, that because their battery's gone their battery is gone. So with— back to that again, I have more examples, but it's the one that I— it was my aha moments. 9 months later, um, we run into each other in a local area, and he— and he— and he's like, how are you? And he's really excited to see me. Like, I'm talking about like you haven't seen someone in 20 years and you can't believe that you're running into them. And he's so excited to see me, and we have a long conversation and he tells me he loves me for the first time. I'm like, we were together almost 2 years, like you never said that before. And he said, I love you more than anybody or anything I have ever loved. And I went, huh? And he go— and he kept— and he told me so many times. And I said, I know how this works. Your emotional availability is flooded tonight. Tomorrow it won't be like this. He's like, no, no, no, Guess what? Yes, he said, I love you. I love you more than anybody or anything, but I can't be what you need. And I listened because our capacity for love— it doesn't mean that he doesn't love me. It doesn't mean that he doesn't— he won't think of me as his phantom ex and, and all of those things for even being with other partners for the rest of his life. But my capacity and his capacity for love is very different. And that's what— and I need that.

And kudos to him because that's, that's a very adult thing.

It's like he recognizes that a lot, and people get mad for that, at them for saying that. And we need to listen. They are filling up.

Thank you, Kathy.

Their capacity. And you, what you want, I can't give you what you need. And I know that, I mean, it's excruciating. I'm not saying that, but we have to sometimes listen because the only way that they're going to build that capacity is on their own. We can't beg them, therapetize them, give them a thousand books and reels. And like, they have to do the work, but we have to be secure in ourselves to— for them to see they need to do the work. Like that, back to that feral cat, we have to let them come back because we keep chasing them, they're going to keep running away.

And it to oversimplify, um, let's just say this. Let's say, for example, we have Mr. Caveman here from YouTube is asking about when it's too late in the game. Um, very disconnected, obviously. He and the spouse haven't had sex in 11 years. And, you know, I hear the story all the time, and what I hear from a lot of guys like Mr. Caveman here is, uh, okay, I'm listening to you and folks like you, Miss Cassie. It's obvious This woman's checking every box. Avoidant? Oh yeah. Anxious me? Oh hell yeah. So here's the deal. I don't have much time left on this planet. I've done the math. I'm going to be retired soon, and from here it's just downhill from there. How patient do I need to be with this woman? What if— and this is very unlikely, you know as well as I do in this world— caveman's wife goes, hey caveman, you know what, I need help. I keep chasing away really good people like you. And I keep running away from really good people like you. I recognize that, you know, what you're trying to do is to save our marriage and all this other stuff. I'm going to go get help with this. So caveman saying, cool, like, tomorrow are you all better? And next month? Like, how long is this going to take? And I tell the cavemans of the world, you got to be patient, dude, and you got to work on your own security because it's not going to be a flip a switch. This is going to take a— it's going to take a while. Would you tell a 58-year-old, 53-year-old man, "Just let her go, dude," or would you say, "Be patient"?

I would say start with little bits of connection and see how you go. Because if you, like, back to like holding this tool example and then trying to bring up old stories of where you really were connected, if you don't make progress in the first steps, you're not going to progress to the end. And so, and I would start seeing that as romantic data of how— because the degree a person can grow is how much they can understand about themselves and accept about themselves without running away. And so I'm, I, I'm pro-marriage and pro-love and all of those things. I don't want you to think that. But I also want people to have the best. I mean, we're only, we're only given one life, and, and, and I want people to have more thriving relationships because everything is, is there at home that we're supporting children to not go through what we're having to talk about today, hopefully, as often. And so when we, we understand ourselves and we can understand our partner and we can come together as co-managers and co-regulators I think it as simple as this. In school, we had a homeroom. And so I've explained to a few guys that I've dated is that that's how I see relationships, is that we might go out to our other classes, our jobs, our subjects, whatever, and then we're coming back for the comfort of that homeroom. A lot of times you would hear— I remember even back in the day I have this as my— this person as my homeroom teacher. I'm so excited. They're very supportive. They, they, they believe in me. They want me to succeed. And I am— and I am happy I have this person as my homeroom teacher. So I think when we can go out in the world and come home to that secure base, that also shows our children what secure attachment looks like. Very good. I didn't really answer his question, but I would start using bids for connection, even in small ones, as data, because I know you want the beginning. The beginning is amazing, like, and, and, and the chemistry and the attachment and the attraction and all of that is going together. But are you winning? What are you winning if you're going to keep it the same as 11 more years? And so I think I'm not saying give up, and there— but the more— the older we get, we know it's harder to change, change our diets, change our habits, change our, you know, change our personality. I'm not sure I'll ever be quiet. And so I, I think the older we are, the harder it's going to be to make significant changes toward the person that you fell in love with in the beginning. Um, but again, working on small bits of connection and co-regulation will go a long way.

It's, uh, it's sad, but a lot of us who come from troubled childhoods, uh, we eventually get to the point of resignation and acceptance of that's just who my parent is. And I could try and, hey, Mom, Dad, look, therapy, look at this book in YouTube or whatever it is, and you're like, this person's now in their 70s, they're not going to change. It's who they are. That's how they— you just have to love them for who they are. And sometimes it means keep your safe distance from them for your own sanity, for your own mental health, and for theirs. Because you two are probably like oil and water. You— it's sad to say, you know, parent and child, but some of us come to that conclusion. And some of us come to the same conclusion with our partners, unfortunately, in marriage, where it's like, like the guy told you, like, I love you, you're awesome, but this— you and I can't be together, man. I just don't have it in me for you, and you for me. We're just oil and water in that way. And sometimes we have to come to that, uh, caveman and others, that, that, um, realization. And it really hurts, especially if you're a more codependent type of person. And I'm willing to set aside everything about me to keep us together, which is what basically a lot of you guys are saying. You guys that are in 10-plus-year dead bedrooms, for goodness sakes, that's very, very unhealthy. But you have said over and over again for a decade plus, I'm cool with this. And but you're not cool with it, and that's not good. And, uh, you need to love yourself a little bit more, not put up with that anymore. Um, then we got Caveman saying all his friends are telling him to have an affair, but I got too much to lose, I can't do it. All my marriage is missing is the intimacy. That's an interesting little line. Um, the version I often hear is everything is great except for the sex. And I often say with a little bit of introspection and look at the past in your relationship, and after about 10 minutes of talking to the guy, you realize, oh no, this It was damaged from usually day one. They've just been blind to it the whole time.

A while back, one of my friends sent me something, and I apologize for not giving credit where credit is due from this, but they called it the 80/20 rule. When intimacy is regular and is consistent and all that kind of stuff, then it's only 20% of what's going on, and when it's not happening, then it's 80% of how the connection is happening. And, and I don't— if I wanted, I would be in— I will choose Golden Girls retirement if I wanted roommates. I want to have a partner that is beyond a roommate. I need a home base with intimacy. I want a best friend, um, with benefits. I, I want a partner that is, that is my secure and home base. And so if I'm going to pick a roommate I'll pick— maybe it's because of growing up on The Golden Girls. I was watching it when I was young, right? There you go, childhood. But, you know, I'll pick that. And, and so I think it's, it's just, it's understanding our needs. And then a lot of times on social media, when I'm being a little sassier self, I say, what are you winning? What are you winning? Like, if he or she is telling you This is the most— like, I had one severe dismissive avoidant that I didn't ever actually meet in person, but he literally said, he was, Cassie, making a 30-minute phone call is a lot for me. I haven't done this with any other person I've dated. And my— one of my best friends, she goes, Cassie, he's literally telling you this is the most he's ever given anybody, and he's this many years old. Is that going to be enough? What are you winning? Yes, he can make incremental changes, maybe 45 minutes, maybe be an hour. But if that is as much emotional empathy or intimacy that he can handle, is that going to be enough? You have to think about capacity.

And he's telling you that at literally the, the beginning, beginning stage of the relationship. Oh wow, this is really unusual for me. That's where he's supposed to be like, oh wow, 3 hours just flew back— flew by like it was nothing. I love talking to you, this is awesome. But no, he's told you right off the bat that you're— I mean You're just taking the words out of my mouth. That's what I hear over and over again. It's like, well, tell me about you and your wife. How'd you meet? Blah blah blah. Usually in like a how they met story is something that you're like, that ain't good. And then when did you guys, you know, decide to get married? And that story involved a lot of stuff that you're like, that's not good. But you're right, it's not until all of a sudden the sex stops that he goes, hold on a second, something's off here, this isn't good. And you're like, no dude, it's not been good for a while. You've overlooked a lot. You've set aside everything about yourself just to stay in this relationship. And she knows that, hence why you're in the state you're in right now.

Another, another— and I usually put a professor emoji behind it, but I, I say the more anxious attachment style a person has, the more they conform to their partner, because that's what enmeshment meant when they were young. The more they could be there for their mother, the more they could be there for their parent, the more enmeshment meant love. And so they will— I mean, I've had some that, you know, after they dated me, they were the biggest carnivores holding turkey legs when we were, you know, going to theme parks. And the next person they dated was a vegan, and within a month or two, they thought they were going to turn vegan. Why? Because if I love what you love, then that means I love you and you're gonna love me.

Bingo.

And, and so the more anxious attachment we have, the more we're trying so much to use that, uh, um, that emotional empathy to love, and they're using cognitive empathy, logic, head, to move back. And it's compassionate empathy, which is our hands. And so, and that's boundaries plus the other, the other two. So with, and with avoidants, we know this, they don't conform to the anxious. They don't adjust their schedules. They don't— I mean, maybe in the beginning because they're wanting you to choose them and they're wanting, you know, they're wanting— they— there's parts of you that they really do want to be with. But as time goes on, schedules don't get changed. Gym time to work out doesn't alter because they're not going to see you for another 2 weeks. It is they don't conform, and the anxious ends up conforming because conforming to them means love.

There you go. Very well put, Miss Cassie. You're awesome. Let's do this again.

Sounds good.

Maybe, uh, next month or so. Guys, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it. It's the top of the hour. Um, I put some links there on the, uh, on the chat there. Go to helpformen.com/join if you are a dude. Sorry, ladies. Uh, men only. It's our support community for men called the Brotherhood, and we get together in meetings and we talk face to face, so to speak, on Zoom all the time. Very frequently we get together in forums, we get together in person, we have coaching courses, all my books at no additional charge, all kinds of cool stuff. So check out the Brotherhood at help4men.com. And Miss Cassie, thank you so very much once again. You're awesome, appreciate you. And guys, we'll catch you on the next one. Toodaloo!