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I told you it was a good one.

That was amazing.

Thank you, appreciate it. Everyone says the same thing, usually I get laughs. And yeah, so that was always wondering— that was, uh, that was made about 10 seconds with AI. Isn't that cool?

I love it.

I also wondered, like, do you have a higher prior— higher, um, percentage of bald clients as a result of that?

It is a little heavy on the bald things, like 4 times. I put in there, when I did the description, I said, I want to— this is what I want to talk about. These are the things I talk about, and I want to incorporate in there funny things about me being bald because I often make fun of myself. And it just really ran with the bald thing. I don't know, but I left it. I was like, good enough, I'll take it. I guess it works and everybody remembers it. So with me today, ladies and gentlemen, new character unlocked here, the lovely and talented Miss Shanna James joining us all the way from the Pacific Northwest. You and I were chatting a little bit before this. I'm in Texas, for those that don't know, and Texas. From all over the world on here, so welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you. It is Shayna, by the way.

What'd I say? Texas.

Shayna.

Shayna.

Shayna.

Shayna. Shayna. Shayna. Shayna. I'll repeat that so I get it right. Thank you. Well, guys, before we get started here, Miss Shayna, tell us about yourself. What do you do?

What do I do? Well, I am a relationship and dating coach, and I've been doing it for 20-plus years, and I have often Over the years, I would say I've specialized in working with men to really be an ally and to support men to have what they want and, um, to practice. You know, sometimes I think of it as human practice and how to have some of those conversations that you're scared of having, you know, with me as opposed to with a woman you're about to have them with because the stakes are lower. Yeah, I just, I, I have a— I don't want to say soft spot in my heart, that feels weird, but I love men. And I grew up in a family where my dad was and still is spoken to by my mom in ways that are not very respectful or kind. And so I think I have a lot of compassion for the, the male journey of the man, as it were.

Very interesting. So is that predominantly, as far as if somebody said Why did you get into this work of all things? Is that the answer? Because I grew up with my father and I saw some dysfunctional things there?

Yeah, that's, that's one of them. And then the other one is that I was part of a conscious community, I would say, in my 20s, where we, a bunch of us came together, we were growing together and learning together and making messes together. And we basically decided we were going to be honest and authentic, and stick around to clean up the messes. So we were exploring, you know, what it was like to be attracted to each other and what it was like to be really honest and say like, hey, this, you know, breaks my trust, or this is where my attraction fades with you, and all these different things. And then we started creating courses because we were all having incredible breakthroughs with each other. So we created the Authentic Man program and the Authentic Woman Experience. And I really got to see men behind the facades and behind the masks and the, you know, I'm the rock, I got it together. It was like, it just broke my heart open and had me feel like we're all human and we're all struggling here. And I can be an ally.

I often say in my world, we may have talked about this on your show. And by the way, plug the name of your podcast. Yes.

So Practicing Love is one of them. And Man Alive is the other.

I was on— was I on Practicing Love?

We— I think I aired it on both. Okay, cool. Fit for both episodes or both podcasts.

Okay, I may have mentioned this on there, but something I noticed very early on in my world is that, yeah, there is some truth to men kind of have a tough exterior. And whether that's innate part of our biology, whether it's taught to us by our social programming or whatever, like men must be tough, don't emote, whether that comes from women, men, both, whatever, but it's there for sure. And then we notice that when men feel safe. They look around, I'm like, no one's gonna judge me on this, we're all cool here. And the sad part is, Shayna, yeah, there's no other women in here because women make me feel really like I really can't let it out. When there's a woman present, I really gotta hold it in.

Yeah.

So when they're in a room with other men, like-minded men, all going through stuff, they don't feel weird, they don't feel shameful. Boy, do they let it out.

I know. And I love that. I mean, I, I love that. I love men's circles and men's groups and places for men to gather and create that safety. And then often as I'm working with men, in addition to that, what I say is, you know, the part of the path is also to find that kind of sovereignty and belief in yourself such that it doesn't matter who's in front of you, right? And so if there's a woman with you and she's, shaming you or attacking you, that you actually get to say, I'm a great person, right?

That's your problem.

Yeah, that's, that's you. That's not me. And you don't have to be an asshole about it either, right? But that can actually really shift those relationship dynamics when you start to take a stand for yourself and set a boundary, uh, and also, you know, ask for how you want to be treated as opposed to whatever's happening over there.

Do you think we need some training? What is— we have a lot of, um, in my world there's a lot of material out there saying men be more vulnerable. And yes, you're going to get some flack from people, but that's their problem, not yours. It's okay to be open about your, your issues. That's how you have real intimate relationships with people, whether it's platonic or romantic, whatever it is.

Yeah.

Um, but do you see— does there need to be, Shayna, um messaging out there to the women saying, and by the way, women, when he opens up to you, don't be so judgmental.

Don't be such an asshole. Yeah, no, I do.

I do.

Well, I— when I did a TEDx talk, it was called What a Thousand Men's Tears Reveal About the Crisis Between Men and Women. And as part of that, I spoke to, you know, telling women like, hey, it's not— we haven't been trained to see men vulnerable. We need to actually get more comfortable with this. And we need to know that it's not the fear that we have of a man opening up and, you know, suddenly being an emotional mess for the rest of his life. It's not true. And in my experience, what happens is that when men feel safe to open up— and you can tell me if this is the case for you, I don't want to assume— uh, but when men feel safe to open up and they're held and supported And this is what my partner says too. He'd never had this before. He's like, wow, I actually now feel stronger and more capable and, you know, more like I can be the one to support and care for you.

He feels safe. Way overused term, but it's true.

Yeah.

You wait, I'm not going to be judged for this. Like, I can tell you, like, something you did just now, Shayna, kind of bothered me, and here's what it is. And you take it and go, I hear you, my bad. You're like, okay, my— I've never heard this before. Like, this is— yeah, you better believe that guy's gonna open up to you, and you're gonna see a softer side of them. You're gonna see a goofier side. You're gonna see all that stuff, which unfortunately—

this—

excuse my language— this goddamn internet, there is so much material out there that preys upon the insecurities of men. Yeah, to really poke at it and go, isn't this bad? Isn't this bad? Aren't they bad women? So forth. And there's Even some of the women do it to themselves. There's a whole world of material out there, especially with the younger people, to be fair. Like on TikTok, for example, you know, you see something and you watch and it shows you, well, you must want to see more of this then, and it shows you more and more and more. Countless videos of young women saying, here is what a man does that gives me the ick. Have you heard this?

No.

Yeah, it repulses her, like, ugh. And when you watch, it's video after video of the most innocuous ridiculous things. And basically it all boils down to when he shows me vulnerability, when he shows me—

fuck, really?

Yeah, like his little boy nature or his goofy nature or his whatever it may be. I even saw one where a man was, um, I don't know if you've seen this in the shopping malls, if they have them there, but here in Texas we do. You go to the shopping mall and there's this little like kiosk of— you can pay time and rent these little— oh, like they have like a big panda bear or something that you can sit on the back of and ride around like a little golf cart in the, in the, uh, in the shopping mall.

I thought those were for little kids.

They are. Okay, but there was one where the man was joining his little kid on it.

Oh, okay, great.

And you know, like, I'm like, that's funny, he's being goofy or whatever. The woman said, I'm sorry, I don't know what it is about these kind of things, but it gives me the ick.

Okay, we need a lot more training, right?

Yes, exactly.

Because when we start to recognize that our ick is often our old wounds, our old enculturations, right? And so I just want to say that I'm sorry to men who are watching this and you are subjected to that, right? I mean, that is just— it's just— it's shitty. And there's a huge difference between someone saying to you, hey, I'm struggling to find my attraction, or, you know, something that just happened sort of killed something for me, versus you're icky, that's, you know, unmanly, or any of that shit, right? And it also— it's like there's a difference between some stranger talking about their random stuff versus, like you said, creating that safe container in a partnership to be able to talk about it. But again, I just go back to, like, you know, as a woman to whoever's listening as a man, I'm just— I'm sorry for all the shit that's out there that has you doubt and second-guess yourself, because you all deserve love. We all humans deserve love, and we don't deserve to be judged and shit on.

Yeah, and unfortunately, when you see material like that, the logical conclusion is, well, the person who made that video obviously has some stuff going on. That, that's the kind of person you go, ooh, stay away from her, done. But no, when you've been hurt a lot and you have a lot of hurt in your background, and possibly you've been hurt by a lot of women, you're just like, yet another piece of evidence that they're just all a bunch of shitheads. And it just spirals out of control. And we have men that just downright hate ladies, hate the women. And then they look at that, well, because see, and show me their, you know, videos. I get people send me reels and stuff all the time. Ralph Brewer, have you seen this? I'm like, I don't give a shit. Well, we're cursing a lot on the show today, by the way. Great, keeping it real. And I was like, yeah, I don't give a shit. It's like, who cares what Barbara in Montana says about something something? But to them, and it really is also an illustration of It's an overused term, yes, but it has merit here. We men tend to pedestalize women in a lot of ways, very unfairly. Yes, she's the goddess, she's incapable of terribleness. So when we see a little bit of humanness from her, which is negative— she's having a bad day, this so-and-so cheated on the man or whatever— we go, holy moly, I had no idea. And then men go down the rabbit hole of these women are secretly all horrible creatures. Like, no, they're human beings, they're capable of some awfulness. Yes.

Yeah.

I just giggled a little bit because the goddess Kali— do you know the goddess Kali?

Kali, yes.

Kali Ma or Kali. She basically kills and destroys, but in the name of good, right? In the name of awakening or supporting, you know, a higher consciousness. But the images of her are like, you know, tongue stuck out, skulls around her neck. She's like standing on a god and crushing him. And so when you said, you know, the goddess is all good, it just gave me a little giggle.

Not necessarily. Um, let me see, I gotta do the critical question to ask in this type of situation. It would be question mark is Mr. Pfeiffer. I'm not understanding.

Um, what is the critical question?

Fight for Better Now says another observation I had that a lot of times women will be a reflection of what they consider to be many bouncing up. Buddy, I'm not following that one. I apologize. Maybe try to simplify that. I'm not too—

I like the women as a reflection though, because if, if you don't feel ashamed of who you are, you get to use the reflection of women, women to see, like, you know, am I connecting with this person? Is this person feeling cared for, loved? Um, that's the one side of it, right? Like, you can use that reflection to see, as long as they're not blaming, shaming, attacking you. And then on the other hand, I often love talking to men about, are you asking for what you want? Do you know what you want, right? Are you, are you able to go in there in a moment and say, oh, this is what would make this feel better to me, or this is how I would feel loved or supported or cared for?

And often the answer is no, I dare not do that. Well, why not? Because I have been shown throughout the past from my parents and everybody else that I have no voice when it comes to that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's sad.

Yeah, it's sad. And it, you know, I, I tend to support men to take one step at a time, right? Dip your toe in the water. And as you're meeting someone new, you share a desire or something that's a little bit vulnerable to see how do they react. Do they treat me well? You know, do I feel safe here to share more? Because I do know, having worked with so many men that, um, yeah, it doesn't always go well. But I know the other way too, you know. I talk to women all the time who are just heartbroken and devastated and pissed off. And I really— we, we need something to help us see each other with more compassion. And I don't know what it's going to be.

Empathy goes a long way. And I find myself saying a lot of guys, well, guys, put yourself in her shoes, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's really tough. You know what's funny is for a lot of men, when they have very dysfunctional relationships and some of it is tantamount to abuse, yeah, from her to him, a lot of men don't see it. They don't want to see it. They don't think it's that bad. And it's often not until I flip the genders that I say, let's pretend you got the abusive guy and he's doing this to his woman and play out the scenario. And then you see the light bulb go off and the guy go, all right, you got a point. So there is something to the men can't be a victim. He has to be a fixer. It has to be his fault at some level. So gosh darn it, there needs to be something I can fix here. It's a very codependent mindset, really, at baseline.

Yeah, which again, you know, the seed of wisdom there. When I ask men who come to me to think about what was unsatisfying in your past relationships or dynamics, and then what was your role It's not to say that men are at fault, but until any of us can see, this is how I co-created this dynamic, there isn't room for us to grow or change. But that doesn't mean, you know, you are to blame and it's your fault.

Very well put. We got Mr. J from YouTube saying, it seems women may be fine with a man like me opening up emotionally early on, but later in the relationship just like a lot of other stuff, it's no longer acceptable and she doesn't want to hear it. So that could be as a result of what, Mr. J? I mean, let's be honest, Shayna, that the, um, atmosphere culture of a relationship does change as the relationship goes down the line. Everything is so super easy at the honeymoon stage, right? And if you don't have a lot of relationship experience, you're saying this is what it's going to be like perpetually, right? This is awesome, which It sounds awful to say this out loud, but guys, let's be honest here. A lot of men say, wife and I were getting it on multiple times a week, if not multiple times a day. I just assumed this would persist well into our old age and throughout time. Yeah, I feel like the rug has been pulled out from underneath me after children, after marriage and everything else. Wow, she's really changed. Perimenopause— who saw this coming? A lot of men are like, what in the world?

Oh man, so it is Brutal.

That may go hand in hand, Mr. J, with what you're saying here, with just like, she's changed, her temperament has changed.

Yeah. And one thing I find is that when you have a— I'll call it, let's call it a conscious relationship, right? If you are consciously creating your relationship, then you are creating agreements, or you're at least having conversations about what do we do when things are challenging, what do we do when we disagree, you know, how do we navigate these harder times or harder moments or decisions. Because, um, if we're all just relating from our habits and the things we were taught, most of us have not had an education about intimacy or sex or, you know, connection and how to feel loved. And so I would say, yes, things change, but the, the more conscious you are and the more you understand and share in a, you know, how are we going to treat each other moving forward, then the better things stay.

What you're talking about though ultimately is a level of maturity. And what we have is— and Jay, you're spelling this out, I don't know if you know it or not— in your second little point here, I talked about this and when I was on your show, is that the majority of men that come to me for help, and I think I'm going to dare say the majority of men that are seeking out relationship stuff online are what we call very anxiously attached men. And wouldn't you know it, they tend to match up with very avoidant women, whether it's fearful or dismissive. The women are just not as open to connecting that way, and boy, he needs a lot of connection, a lot of reassurance. So Jay, in your second comment, you hear you say, for example, first week of marriage, sick, well, let me help you. 5 years into the marriage, I'm going to bed, leave me alone with your illness. Yeah, um, dude, I hear this all the time, and it may not necessarily be what a lot of men in your position think, which is maybe I am kind of a, a little wuss and I'm too much with my sickness and everything else. Maybe I need to get up out of bed and even though I have 103 fever and get back to work and so forth. That's the kind of stuff that ends up killing you, because that other person, it's really on her. And it may be, if you're like most of the guys that I talk to, this may be illustrative of, yeah, you got with a woman who is at baseline kind of avoidant in nature And she doesn't like weakness. She doesn't like to see any of that stuff, vulnerability from her kids. She gets enough of it from her kids all day long. Then to have a man who's just like, I'm not feeling too good, she's like, oh God, here we go again. And we see, uh, yeah, the sexual intimacy, romance, romance, or it just goes out the door once the comfortability and familiarity and— oh, what's the word— boredom sets in. Those women and men, let's be fair, just check out. They're just done.

Yeah. Well, the other thing I want to add into the mix is that we're looking at one moment in time. And when you look at more moments or the larger relationship, I think there's a question of how loved, cared for, supported, appreciated does each person feel in the relationship. And if she's not feeling support— I'm not saying, you know, you have to go first, but tends to be the one who becomes conscious of this start goes first, right? And often when I'm talking to men, it's men. I'm talking to women, it's women. And I'm like, sorry, I know you don't want this to be your job, and we're not going to make it your job, but if you're aware of this, right, you get to go first and you get to ask your partner, do you feel loved? Do you feel supported? Do you feel connected to me? What would have you feel more supported, loved, connected, right? Because if the relationship is based right now in two people feeling underappreciated, undersupported, you know, misunderstood, you're not going to be creating those dynamics where you're each taking care of each other in a circle. Yeah, exactly.

And, uh, I mean, to illustrate the point, let's flip the genders here, and where you got a guy who's like, this woman, she just, she keeps promising me fun time in the bedroom, she keeps saying tonight's the night, and it just keeps not happening over and over again, and now I'm officially resentful of her. And the other day she said, honey, can you bring me my coffee from the kitchen? And he goes, go get it yourself. That could very well be, Jay, kind of a microcosm moment of what you got going on there. Or like I said, she's just a very avoidant woman, and this is— you probably, Jay, are going to come back and go, oh no, dude, this is one of many such instances ever since something something, and she's just been very resistant to any kind of connection in that way. Any kind of vulnerability and weakness from me really turns her off. And some women are like really overt about it, really mean about it. Like, I don't, I don't give a shit, dude. Take care of yourself. Fix yourself. I've already taken care of 3 snot noses today. I'm not going to take care of another one. That type of thing. Oh, wonderful.

And again, it's, it's maturity, right? I mean, I— there are times where, I don't know, let's just say my partner gets sick or something happens, and I'm like, oh, right, I'm tired, I have another— I have a kid, or all this stuff. But am I mature enough? Which is part of what I wrote the book Honest Sex is because the, the whole first part about it is, is about honesty and how are you honest with each other in a way that actually creates more connection rather than more resentment. So Yes, I have to be willing, and I think all of us as humans, if we want to have successful relationships, I do think we have to be willing to check our own shit, right? Like, oh, maybe I don't want to take care of this person, but am I willing to? Because I know that this is what I do, this is how I, you know, give my love. And if I want love back, if I want this to be an upward spiral with each other, right, we're both going to make some sacrifices and compromises. They're not going to be that at the level of I'm compromising my integrity, or I'm compromising who I know myself to be. But there is a maturity, like you said, of how do we create love together.

Very good. As you're talking here, I'm not ignoring you. I'm copying your, uh, links. shannajamescoaching.com, as well as the link in your email, the little picture of your book down the bottom. That does link me to— yeah, yes it does, to Amazon.

Cool.

Let me copy that little linky there. And put it in here. Oh, that's a big link. That'll work. It's a long, guys, big massive link, but that'll work. Uh, that sends everyone to your latest book, Honest Sex. Tell us about it. I want to hear all about— with a name like that, it's got to be good, right?

Yeah, exactly. Well, okay, so the first part, like I said, is all about honesty, and the, the premise is that you can't have a relationship, kind of like Jay is saying, right? Your relationship is going to fade and fizzle if you are not honest with each other. But if you're honest with each other in a way where you're saying you're being an asshole versus, hey, that thing just hurt my feelings and can we talk about it, that's not the kind of honesty that's going to create a lifelong passion, you know, passion and intimacy. So the first part of the book goes into honesty and how do we actually get honest with ourselves about what is true for us, what we want, what we need, what we like, what we don't like, then how do we communicate that with someone else? And then the second part of the book is what is sex honestly, or what is sex actually, because I find that we have a very limited definition in this society. Um, you know, it has to be genitals, or it has to be in the bedroom, or— so I, I expand the definition of sex to include not just physical but more emotional and energetic and spiritual and these experiences where we're coming together, um, to create pleasure and connection with each other. And so it gives, you know, uh, there's one story that I wrote in there where, again, it's this kind of mature— how do we have these mature conversations, right? So if one person says, for example, the— I want to be tied up, you know, I like that kind of experience. A, there could be a bajillion different reasons why someone would want that, right? And so it's really important to have that conversation to understand you know, are you wanting this because you want to be manhandled? Are you wanting this because you want to be cherished? Right? That is a very different experience there. But also that if we're having these honest conversations in a conscious way, when one person says, I want to do this, the other person doesn't say, ugh, or I can't do that, or that's disgusting, right? They're willing to get more vulnerable and say, ooh, okay, this part scares me, or this part reminds me of something I saw when I was you know, in my 20s that was really horrible. And so I can't— I'm— I can't get past that. I'm trying to get past that. But ultimately, there's a collaboration that happens and a really, you know, getting to know each other and, and loving each other in that way.

Very good. I love it. So guys, check it out. I put the link there. Hopefully it works for you there. But if not, just do a search for, again, the title Honest Sex. Uh, is it the full title, Honest Sex Passionate Connection? In relation—

what's the subtitle? Is A Passionate Path to— what is it— Connection and Keep Relationships Alive.

You want to— if you're able to grab it, you can always show it here on camera so we have— so guys can see the COVID Okay, there's the COVID There you go. Honest Sex, guys, check it out. Shanna James, M.A. Very good, good, good cover there. I mean, you put— putting sex, you know, front, rather large. That's it. You got to do that. Um, but, uh, I'm making sure we're not missing something here. Uh, back to Mr. J here. Um, yeah, Mr. J, you're painting the picture here of, uh, seems that having the conversation— so he's asking her, are you okay? Am I showing up for you? Is there anything you need? In that convo with an avoidant woman is talking to a brick wall. No, I'm just fine.

Yes, uh, your point.

And then 2 years later she says, I want a divorce and I've told you why. For years. To which he says, what?

Who?

How?

The conversation didn't happen. I'm going to say, Jay, it did in a roundabout way. When you're rejected probably for years and years over and over again of no connection, that's somebody who's saying, I don't— that's not us, man.

They're not saying it with their words, but they're saying it with their actions.

I mean, I've had some poor guys who do qualify as being very codependent in nature who say, for 20 years my wife and I haven't touched each other. And you know, I don't, don't know what to make of this. In my— I tell you, the thing that really makes men go, oh wow, is like, yeah dude, your wife dumped you. I don't know how— that's her roundabout way of saying that, avoidingly doing it. Well then why wouldn't she just leave? Well, I don't know, what's life look like for her single? Probably a lot more difficult. She's in a nice routine of your little rituals together. It's comfort, it's security, it's survival, it's survival. Yeah, could very well be a money thing, who knows. But people have a lot of reasons to stick around in relationships that just don't work, men and women alike. And, uh, yeah, in a roundabout way, when somebody rejects you repeatedly, for some of these guys, two decades plus, that's, that's what's going on.

Well, and oftentimes what I say to men is, okay, so start to— and this, this is the danger of not knowing what you want and how you want it to go, is that then it's like, okay, and I see this with my dad too, like, I'll just, I'll put up with it. Or sometimes he asks me, how do I get your mom to stop yelling at me? And You know, he doesn't ever change anything or do anything. So we have the same conversation over and over. But, you know, once you see what you want and what's possible, then you have something that, you know, you can kind of map against what's happening, right? And then you can decide. I mean, a lot of times it comes down to you have to decide for yourself, am I okay with this? Dynamic the way it is. And if not, it doesn't mean, again, you have to be a jerk or you have to just cut it off right away. I often say to people, you know, do whatever you can to bring yourself in as open-hearted of a way and, you know, request to have these conversations. And, and if you don't get anywhere and there's no willingness on the other side, it's likely never going to happen. But it does, you know, there are times where it happens. I'm coaching someone right now who, you know, is turning their 'I want to get divorced' around. But it's rare if you have a woman who's not willing to show up and, and talk honestly with care, right? Like compassionate.

Yeah, it's one thing to talk and just say, 'You, you, you, you.' Mature honesty. That's what we often get. Mature honesty is everything. But unfortunately, from what I've seen, relatively rare. I mean, you're talking about a lot of very open, vulnerable, intelligent conversation of like, here's what's going on with me, let me tell you what's over, here's how I'm responding. That's very mature. And a lot of people just, I'm too busy, I'm too stressed, I'm too just shooting from the hip kind of thing, just instinctively acting out their past dysfunction, all the stuff that they've learned since they were a kiddo and they bring into relationships.

And I think the hard part too is that we have to look at how willing we are to do that, right? If we are not willing to do that, or if we're not doing that, we usually attract someone who's also not willing or wanting to do that. So if you do want it, there are many women out there who also want it. It's not always easy to find each other, and I'm working on that right now, but don't give up and think, oh, this doesn't exist out there. It really does exist. It just may not be what you fell into in those younger years, right, when you didn't know.

And what you fell into repeatedly. That's the thing that gets a lot of people. Like, when I have a man who says, like, you know, all women cheat, and I go, what makes you think all women cheat, for goodness' sake? He says, well, I've been with 4 women in my life and all 4 of them cheated on me.

Right.

There's a common denominator here, and it's you. And I'm not saying you deserved it. I'm saying you have a type, and you tend to hang around in certain circles of people, and there's something about you that attracts them. You're attracted to them, and vice versa. It's a mess.

Yeah. And if you start to actually go deeper and inquire into what is going on there and why is this happening right? We get to look at our own role. And I've gone through divorce. I know it's— it can be brutal, but it also has been incredibly freeing. And I'm now in a relationship with someone who is loving and conscious, and, you know, we're really creating something beautiful together. And I know that's the same for you as well.

Absolutely. I like to think so anyway. I don't know if it's so beautiful. It's—

I guess that's a subjective word, but Then we have Mr.

J going on about his situation here. Uh, the avoidant woman often can't ever point to specific reasons why, why they feel the way they do, why they act the way they do. Yes, anxious guy here, I must know exactly why. LOL. Analytics must, uh, be made and studied.

Um, it's good when you can have humor, right, and poke a little fun at yourself too.

That's right, that's right. Analytics, Mr. J. Um, We talk about you need analytics to study and so forth. Um, another layer to this— I don't know how much you've dove into this over the years of doing what you do— who I attract to me and who you attract to you, men with relationship problems, a disproportionately large number of those men, more so than in general society, are neurodivergent. How much you've dove into that world. But we have— I mean, I'm hearing ADHD all the time, I'm hearing OCD, and I'm hearing autism spectrum. A lot of engineers, a lot of guys who love numbers, facts, a lot of black and white, a lot of ones and zeros. So the, the gray area, the nuance of a lot of this talk is just really, really difficult for them. And relationship is a lot of that. It's not so concrete. You just do this, this, and this, and this is the results that spit out on the other end, right? It's a lot of understanding and empathizing, and you have to—

especially if you're heterosexual.

There you go. Especially in the post-divorce dating world of doing the courtship process all over again. Yeah, trying to find a mate and understanding people. And there's, there's like a dance to dating and getting to know people, and there's a— you do need a sense of, it's of abundance. You do need to know, like, dude, this person may not be for you I wouldn't overlook those 8 bad things. They're not a good match for you. Don't just overlook them because, 'I can't let her go, this is the first woman to talk to me in 4 months.' Yes, you gotta let her go, dude. And that's really tough for a lot of our neurodivergent guys to deal with. Boy, do they take— they fall in love really fast is what I've learned. Really hard, really fast, right? And they take rejection extremely hard, way more so than the average guy.

And one thing I would say to that is to really question what you think of as love, right? I would say when we're falling hard and fast, it's usually not a fully, you know, mature kind of love. It's usually— it's some— in, in some communities like, um, polyamory and, you know, conscious relationships, they call it NRE, which is new relationship energy. So there is this sense of like, I'm overwhelmed with feeling, and okay, we can call it love or not love. And I often say to my clients who are newly dating again, like, Enjoy the feelings, right? If it feels good, feel good. Also think with your head, your heart, and your balls, right? Like all three. And so check yourself again, like, oh, it's been 3 months or 2 weeks. Do I actually know this person? No, it takes—

you sure don't.

It takes a year or many years, right, to really know, or going through something challenging. And so Enjoy the feelings, but don't get caught up in, oh, this means something about who we are to each other.

Very well put. I mean, I hear that all the time. I have, uh, especially in the post-divorce dating world. Yeah, you'll have some poor guy that's like, I'm kind of tired of being alone. I loved being in a long-term relationship. I love the rituals and the everyday life, and that's very comforting to me. That's what I want, a life partner, somebody go through life with. Damn it, I'm tired of all this being single stuff. And even if he's— sometimes it's only months that he's been into it, he's like, I'm tired of this. So when they find one that's, oh, gets them going, boy, he jumps in way into the deep end of the pool. Unfortunately, that, oh, is usually born out of there's something really not quite right about her that really gets me going. Something reminds me of mom, dad, whatever it may be. You, um, a lot of people don't really appreciate the addictive nature of attraction or push and pull of— there's something psychological in human beings that is really addictive, which is give them a taste of the good stuff, pull it back, and then maybe disappear for a while, and then come out of nowhere and go, here's some good stuff again. People have known this forever. It's in marketing, it's in gambling, it's in all these things. It's— I wrote about this here recently, that with the science behind, um, what do you call it, the slot machines. If it was just constant loss, loss, loss, you would just give up. This thing's a loser. But it knows every now and then just give you a little— here's a few bucks— and you go, oh, this— the next one could be the big one. Loss, loss, loss, loss, loss. There's the science behind it. It's the same thing in relationships. And that— you guys need to take a step back and go, maybe I'm falling head over heels for this woman after knowing her after 2 dates because there's a little bit of that in there, right? Something that really points at something within me that ain't, that ain't so good.

Yeah, so yeah, and I think about like there's different kinds of chemistry, right? There's healthy chemistry, which I think feels like you are understood and cared for in a, in a really grounded, right, warm way. And then I would call it unhealthy chemistry that is more based in wounds or a sense that we are not whole as ourselves, and so we're trying to fill a hole or fix some dynamic and the love that we wanted that we never got or never felt accepted, right? So again, you get to to look at it like, okay, is this a healthy kind of chemistry or is this an unhealthy kind of chemistry? And how do I start being more aware of these things?

Very well put. You're saying all the good stuff here. I love it. Thank you for coming on again. We got, um, more comments here from Mr. J. J's just, uh, J, I love it, buddy. Keep it coming. He's, he's got some stuff he needs to get off his chest.

Good. Get it off your chest. This is a healthy way to do it.

He is an artistic creative type. He's the musician, writer, uh, long-term chronic depression though, and anxiety disorder. He has never been diagnosed autistic, but he's always wondered. I hear that quite a bit. There's a lot of stuff online and videos and so forth where people are like, I've been recently diagnosed, and when you hear their stories, a lot of people go, that sounds familiar. Yeah, maybe that helps explain some things. It is a spectrum, you know. Just because you're autistic doesn't mean fill in the blank. It's You know, everybody, everybody's an individual, but there is certain characteristics and criteria that you check to make you go, yeah, you're on the spectrum, but welcome to a giant population of very successful, happy people.

It is large, right? I mean, both my— I, I'm— my sister and I were like, oh, I think our dad is on the spectrum, and, and we had not caught that. My ex, definitely. My current partner, um, or, you know, ADHD at least, right? So My kid is neurodivergent. I mean, there's a lot of— there's a lot of neurodivergence, I was going to say, around. But I think, I think the fact we are just more divergent than, you know, most people think, right? It's like there's a more— there's a wider range of how we are as human beings.

One criticism of it is that it's too wide of a range, to the point where we're like, basically this is everybody. But the more you read into it and everything, you realize, no, it's actually not.

It's not, but, but it's also assuming like those of us who aren't neurodivergent are the normal ones, right? So it gets— yeah, it's just, it's a tricky neurotypical. But as long as— yeah, as long as you can use a diagnosis or understanding to, to know more about yourself and learn more about yourself, and then, you know, be conscious of how you're connecting with someone else and be able to speak about that with someone else, I think it's great. But don't use it to shame yourself or limit yourself.

There you go. Absolutely. Because people look at it as like, now I'm some kind of weirdo, now I can't do this, now I can't do this. Just stop.

It's not true.

Like, only the most successful human beings on the planet Earth who ever have been, including the most rich, wealthy scientists, definitely neurodivergent in the world, they're all neurodivergent. So you're in good company. Um, so, and then Jay would say, maybe I was just better at faking it earlier and I got too comfortable and I opened up and became vulnerable enough with her to do that. This is what makes guys not want to do that again. So yeah, but yes, your, your framing is such that it's maybe I got too— maybe I opened up too, maybe. Or the—

well, I wrote about this in, in Honest Sex also, that I was dating a guy after I got divorced. I was dating a guy who was probably in his early 50s, maybe late 40s, and he opened up and he cried and he was emotional with me, and I just, you know, welcomed that. And he, he was like, oh my gosh, this has never happened for me. Every woman I've ever been with, and when I've opened up like this, has you know, shamed me or attacked me or just left. And so again, he could have that story or the, the evidence, right? This is all there is out there. But the more we heal ourselves— and I feel like I'm sounding very preachy and I don't mean to, but it's like, right— the more we heal and we're not expecting someone else to, to validate us, and we know that we are good no matter where on the spectrum of whatever we are, we are, right? Then we can actually stand up for ourselves in a calm and loving way. Like, hey, I need you to, you know, listen, or I need you to be compassionate with me. Or, hey, when I share something vulnerable and you say, you know, fuck you, or I'm just tired of this shit, it, it kind of hurts, right? Like, I want to have a relationship where we are kind to each other and respectful with each other. And is that something you want too? And if not, Adios.

Yeah, but that adios is tough. It is, because a lot of men— human beings in general, let's be fair— will take the dysfunctional, comfortable, and familiar way over the, the, I don't know what's over on the other side of that wall. It could be a whole lot of hurt, could be a whole lot of loneliness. It could be, I'll just stay right here.

Yeah, and what I will say, just to paint some hope, is the men I work with who have gone through divorce there's often a phase of, fuck, this is hard. I have to really look at myself, you know. I have to feel what I'm feeling and the loneliness and the rejection and all that. But on the other side, or when they get through that, there is often, oh my God, I am really enjoying my life. I get to make decisions for myself. I mean, before I start another relationship, right? I get to really consider what do I want and what do I like and Who am I and how do I create an amazing life? And then I get to go co-create that with someone else. And it's— yeah, they're suffering. They're suffering no matter what we choose. It's kind of like, which, which suffering do you want?

And do you choose? That's right. There's an old, uh, line there somewhere, some old piece of wisdom.

Yeah.

Um, guys, before I forget, if you could, when you come in here, or if you've been watching us for a while, give me a like. If you could, that always helps.

Do the little—

hit the little like button, little thumbs up. That tells everybody that this is worth watching. It shows it to more people. You know the drill. And if you're watching on YouTube, if you could give me a subscribe, that'd be really awesome. Give this a like. Thank you so very much. Do appreciate it. And I put the links there to Miss Shana's stuff, guys. Check it out, her website, as well as the new book coming out, which— where'd the book go? You got to show the book.

Well, the— this book already came out a couple years ago.

Oh, it did? Okay, I thought that was the latest one.

No, I'm working— I actually just Yesterday finished The Honest Dating Guide.

Okay, that's where I was confused. Honest dating. Gotcha, gotcha.

Okay, yes, so it's, it's more of a guide at this point than a book, but, um, guides. Yeah, I'm excited for it. It feels like, especially for men who've been divorced and for people who are starting over and in midlife and really want to have love for real instead of you know, all the emotional roller coasters and anxiety and just that feeling, the ghosting, all that shit. It's like, no, how do we actually do this in a way that feels respectful and where you get to have real genuine connection with people instead of—

that's a huge hole, void in all of this material is now that you're out there again, how do you do this right?

How do you do this in a way that respects yourself and in a way where you're not tolerating shit that you tolerated in a marriage? And that's awesome, right? You actually get to be treated well.

I love it. Very good. Good for you. And we got Mr. J here. You know, I'm sorry you're going through this, buddy. You say divorce happened a few years ago, and to say I'm struggling is an understatement. Even with therapy, it's been brutal to get through, and I still cry every day about it. Well, yeah, not, not to kick a man while he's down or anything, Mr. J, and, and I appreciate you sharing that with us. Um, there's no shame in that whatsoever, but it does point to something potentially, potentially could be way off base here, which is what I hear from a lot of men. I put a lot of me into her. I put a lot on her shoulders. Yeah, she was my friend, she was my lover, she was my caregiver, she was all these things in one. And that's not necessarily fair to anybody, whether she's avoidant or secure, whatever the hell she is. Yeah, guys, we need to have a life outside of our one-on-one monogamous relationship. Uh, you need a community You need friends. You need to go out and help others. You go out and be helped by others. It sounds clichéd, but it is true. And that's the basis for a lot of positive mental health for everyone. And the ladies do a lot better job of that in general than what us men do. Us men tend to be like, I got work, I got the kids, who got time to hang out with dudes? I don't know.

But it's important, right? I mean, there's an epidemic of loneliness that's impacting men even more.

I think it's a very real thing.

And it sounds like your community could be a great place for Jay to have some of that.

Good segue. You've done this before.

I got—

I'll put the link up on the screen there. helpformen.com/join is a community that I put together. It's called the Brotherhood. You can learn more, helpformen.com/join. Um, guys, it's hundreds and hundreds of men. We're up to almost 900 men now worldwide. Um, we get together in live Zoom meetings so you can chat with me face to face, so to speak, along with a bunch of other guys. And we do this pretty frequently. We record all those meetings. So if you miss out on one, you can listen to it like a podcast. And at this point, we have close to 2,000 hours of those. So that's a lot. You'll never run out. We add every single week. So for all you guys that commute and walk on the treadmill and stuff, you're gonna love it. We have private forums. So we talk about this kind of stuff, all my books, everything, one-on-one coaching. If you want to chat with me one-on-one, other guys on the team, you can do that. We get together in person. We're about to announce our next Annual Member Gathering for 2027. So for Jay and others that are going through it, buddy, you're not alone. Our group may not be for you necessarily, but in general, I would say some kind of group or community is not just like recommended, it's necessary. It's a human thing.

Agreed.

We need— I mean, I often say this, apologize if you guys heard me say this a few hundred times, There are some countries in this, in this world who outlaw isolation in prison. What do they call it? I always forget the term for it.

Solitary confinement.

Solitary confinement. It's considered a form of torture. Yeah, to take a human being and stuff them into a closet in a dark room for days on end. They come out what? Crazy. They lose their marbles. It's a form of torture. And some of you guys are doing it to yourself. You go to work, you sit in your car, you go home, you sit in the dark, you watch your Netflix, you You wake up day after day after day, and then you wonder, why is my anxiety through the roof? Why can't I get over this divorce and everything else? Versus pick up the phone and call somebody, go hang out at the whatever down the road.

Yeah, right. If you're, if you're doing therapy but you're not interacting with other people in this way, like your community, or, you know, having these conversations, or sometimes therapy— I, I love therapy. I mean, I did a master's in psychology. I also know that therapy doesn't heal everything, right? Or, um, there are certain parts that it can get to, and then there are certain things that— there are people who do body work and energetic work and coaching work and— right, all the things that we do out there. Sometimes one works better for a phase, or sometimes one works better for a person's constitution. But definitely not doing it alone, right? That even just if you're working with one-on-one with someone You've got to have people and community.

Exactly right, and hugely important. And we got— pardon me, got distracted here by a comment that flew across the screen. Mr. Exclusive on YouTube says, why do we have to change? Wouldn't it be so much easier just to find someone who actually likes you? You may come to that conclusion, my man, but I mean, let's This is something that a lot of men, uh, harp on quite a bit online, is that, boy, these women just don't seem to have any, any sense of accountability. They just always point to us and so forth. Well, guys, let's turn that kind of, uh, oh, what's the word I'm looking for, criticism on yourself. Um, what we're talking about is ultimate accountability and all this, and the only thing you can ultimately control is yourself. So why do we have to change? You don't have to change anything, dude. But if you want to change the situation you're in, whether it's your job, your relationship, whatever, you have to go, all right, what can I do here? That's it. You know what she should do. Yeah, I know, we all know. But is she going to do it or not? That's up to her, right? What are you going to do?

Can I do that's going to make a difference? Or, right, isn't the— was it— I think it's attributed to Einstein, but I don't know if it's someone else, that repeating the same thing over and over again, right, and hoping that things will change is the definition of insanity.

And so many men in relationship's like this, whatever this is. I always use the term dysfunctional, toxic, whatever. Um, one of these days I'm hoping she will wake up and, and notice what's going on here, and she'll say, all right, you're right, I need help.

I think, yeah, the thing about change too, I'm just thinking, is like, okay, what, what is inspiring about change, right? Like, how can we change in a way— when I'm working with a man, I'm not saying change for someone else. It's how do you make changes for yourself where you feel like you can respect yourself more, you feel more excited about life, you feel more alive, right? You have more to give, you have a bigger impact in the world. So I guess that's another way to think about, you know, you could change just because you're supposed to, or you could change because it actually feels good to yourself.

And for a lot of men, the resistance to change is based upon their fear of, if I do change, if I do stick up for myself, if I do go get better at fill in the blank, whatever that may be, whatever deficiency you feel you may have, she's going to go away. And yeah, that could very well be. That's a, that's a big life lesson for a lot of people, is that you get better, and it sounds very clichéd, but it's true, you're going to leave some people behind.

Yeah, a lot of relationships can fall away if you're becoming someone different or you're acting differently, but then there's room for people to come in who treat you well, respect you.

There it is. There's a, uh, there's a really shallow example of that which is being played out a lot more now than it has been in the past. We saw it with people that went through, uh, bariatric surgery, like stomach stapling and so forth. The divorce rate is extremely high. Really? People that go through that, yes, um, double the regular divorce rate, something like that. Wow. Um, it's because they have a new outlook on life. They look across their partner and go, this, this is the person I was in a very unhealthy relationship with. We were both 400+ pounds and now I'm 150. Now I feel different, look different. I'm surrounding myself with new people. I'm going to the gym. This person's like, not for me. Yeah, they're going to grow apart. And we're seeing that now with the GLP-1 medications. We're seeing a lot of people going through that. So it's kind of a short circuit, quick jump into here's what happens when somebody grows, if you will, or changes or whatever. And, um, yeah, you're gonna leave people behind.

Yeah. And right, if the relationship is good and healthy, then you get to grow together. And if it's not, then you do make room for a good and healthy relationship to show up or to create that together.

And a last comment here, and I'm going to let you go because we're coming up to the top of the hour. Um, that's my point, he says, Mr. Exclusive. We can do all the changing we can do for the better, but she still has to like you. Uh, I've waited for my wife to wake up forever. Maybe that's something right there. And the better— I'm honestly starting to not want her. You know, Mr.

Exclusive, that sounds honest. There you go.

I was just gonna say, you know, a real, a real tough guy way to look at it, which seems to appeal to a lot of men, is when I tell them that's kind of what you're supposed to do. You know, when you're with somebody and they're like, get away, get away, get away, right?

It's healthy to be like, I don't want that.

Message received. Yeah, okay, I guess I'll go over here then, which may mean divorce, which may— whatever it is for you. So that's normal. But if you're a very kind of codependent man, that feels like, I feel bad for feeling bad, I feel bad for not wanting my partner anymore, I feel bad for not being turned on by them anymore, I feel bad for whatever. Yep, that's natural, man. Like I say, the woman probably dumped you a long time ago and you're just now getting the hint.

And yeah, and if you're— here's the one, here's the other thing I would say too. If you're waiting and you're not having these mature, honest conversations, then people wait a long time and usually nothing happens. So if you haven't— I don't know about Mr. Exclusive, right? But if you're listening and you haven't had some of these conversations where you are— you're not, um— I say complaint and desire are opposite sides of the same coin. So if you're complaining about something don't expect it to change. If you start to ask for what you really want or paint a vision of something that's possible— and I want to create more pleasure for both of us and more excitement for both of us, right? And you're met with ugh, then at least you've given it your all, right? At least you've brought something positive versus you're bringing something negative, which people usually meet with the negative.

And that at least you know you've tried your best.

Exactly.

That's, that's what every man wants to hear that I talk to. I need to know that I've turned every—

I've given it my all, I've tried my best.

Yes, but unfortunately, if you're a very codependent, very attached person, there's always one more thing you can try, one more thing. And, um, sometimes you just gotta throw your hands up and go, message received, I got it. And you know what, that's nothing wrong with it. You're not a weak person for doing it.

Doesn't mean that. If anything, it actually means you're self-respecting, right? And stronger. I like that.

Very good. Miss Shana James, thank you so much.

Love your work.

I love you.

We should do it again. And guys, please go to her website. Let me read it out loud for you here. I put it way back in the comments here. One moment, guys. Hold on, hold on. I could just tell you, MissShaynaJamesCoaching.com. ShaynaJamesCoaching.com. All right, Miss Shayna, thank you so very much. Thank you, guys. Thanks for having us, for joining us today, and we'll catch you on the next one. Toodaloo!