Episode 19 on Persuasion

Hello there. Welcome to episode number 19 of spontaneous conversations. This is Ravi Gundlapalli, founder CEO of Ventra Cloud.

With me, I have.

I'm Rajesh Seti. I'm a serial entrepreneur and I'm co conspirator with Ravi on this podcast series.

And today we have a very exciting guest, a genius in the world of marketing.

Visiting us in Silicon Valley. His name is Sterling Valentine. Sterling, thank you so much for joining our podcast today.

Thank you for having me. And welcome, everybody who's listening, wherever you are, whenever you are, we're happy to have you.

Yeah, we picked a topic which was very interesting, Ravi. We first started with should we do persuasion as a topic? And then Sterling said we should do something even better. Something that will eliminate persuasion. Something building products that don't require for us to persuade people to engage with them or buy them. So, Sterling, what is the reason you picked the topic?

Well, you guys were kind enough to ask me to do it.

And I was happy to do it, but I wanted to make sure we would approach it at the highest level possible to give the maximum benefit for our listeners because everybody's time is already being taken up by so many other things. My suggestion was, instead of trying to master the art of persuasion, why don't we master the art of eliminating the need for persuasion in the first place? So the best way to do that would be to.

Create situations that are so mutually beneficial that persuasion is completely unnecessary. So instead of. I always believe that the best way to solve a problem is to prevent it from happening. So we could master the art of persuasion, but that puts us in a confrontational position where we always have to persuade somebody to our point of view. So we become better arm wrestlers. But I would love to not have to arm wrestle in the first place. So how can we eliminate the need for persuasion? I thought that would be a good place to start a conversation. We're never going to completely eliminate the need for persuasion, but how can we set it up so that things are mutually beneficial and don't need to be pushed or forced or cajoled into doing something?

Yeah, because, you know, just the word persuasion itself almost implies. Almost implies that you are, whatever you do, are going to say you are going to have to make the other person move or, you know, take an action. Because persuasion motivation, you know, motivator, means to make somebody move. So it always takes more energy to move somebody. Rather, instead if you inspire them and they move with their own weight, with. With their own desire, with their own beliefs, it's almost Happening at zero force from your side. So if entrepreneurs can really learn that their products, their ideas, their companies naturally draw people, then there's really no need to persuasion. So that's why I'm so excited by this topic. So I think, Sterling, what is one thing that you recommend entrepreneurs should think about to eliminate persuasion?

Well, we start with the fundamental position of we need to get something done. We have a goal in mind, we have a product to sell. We have a non profit organization caused to achieve. We want to make some transformation in the world, some result. We're here, we want to be there. We analyze the gap, who can help us get there. So if you sell aluminum siding, you need aluminum siding prospects to sell aluminum siding to. If you have a nonprofit organization, you need somebody to donate. And most of the time, I think this is where we start too far down in the decision making tree. We start down at the part of, okay, where do I find people that I can persuade to my way of thinking? And that's traditionally been the way it usually works, but isn't it wonderful when things are seamless? I really believe that discipline is inefficient. And whenever possible, I'd rather replace discipline with joy. I'd rather replace immediate buy in, you know, instead of having to make a persuasion in the first place. So how can we design our needs? How can we design these transformations that we want to have happen in the world in such a way that baked right in is, you know, benefit for somebody else? How can we make a mutually beneficial situation where the other party is already attempting to achieve goals that they would selfishly try to achieve anyway, except that when they do so, it also benefits us. So in the very design of what we're setting out to do, before we set out one foot onto the journey, maybe we can adjust the journey so that we don't have to travel very far. So if we can roll back the decision tree one level and say, instead of how can I persuade people to do this or believe this or pay for this or whatever, maybe I can look at how can I build it so that people flock to it, naturally, want to embrace it, and I have to turn people away, Eliminating the persuasion is a goal that we should have before we ever even set foot out to try to persuade people, we may not need to do it at all if we design it right. Make sense? Yeah.

You know, in one of our conversations, actually, you said something about.

It'S not about us, it's about you. And so if you make everything about the other person, then the Other person is actually coming to you because you're talking their language. Can you expand on that?

Well, I love the concepts of the advocate and the Avatar. I think these are very powerful frameworks that we can use in whatever it is we're doing, whether it's a traditional selling persuading process or even in the design of something at the preliminary blueprints architectural stage. The Avatar is the person who we're trying to influence or trying to achieve some kind of compliance from. And the more we can put ourselves in their shoes, we can better try to see how what our project is could help them solve their problems. So the less we put ourselves in our Avatar's shoes, the more we're just hammering somebody on the head that we don't really understand their position. And the less rapport, connectivity, congruency we have with the other party, the less effective we're going to be. So pretty soon it basically becomes just buy it, dammit. I don't care if it makes any sense to you. It becomes a, you know, shaking them by the shirt. I just want you to do what I want you to do. I haven't really done the homework of paying attention. If it's actually any good for you, just comply already, you know, so that's like the worst case scenario down the spectrum. But if we can really place ourselves in the Avatar's shoes, who is the person that we're trying to help? What is their problem that they're experiencing? What is their context? What does their life look like? How, where are they trying to get to? Anyway? A great question is how can this project of mine help you achieve your goals?

This is a powerful question because now it's a design question. I even ask people sometimes, if you were designing this project, whatever it is, what would you do? If you could wave your magic wand, how would you make it better for you to serve your own selfish needs? Not to do me a favor, but to help you get wherever it is you're going?

Or if.

Another great question tool is if you own stock in me or my product or my if you own stock, meaning that the decisions that I make put money in your pocket if I make the right ones, or cost you money that you've already paid stock. If I drag your investment down into the toilet, if I do the wrong thing, what would you have me do? If you were me really putting ownership on it and really trying to integrate with the Avatar. And quickly. The other part about the advocate is the more we try to put ourselves in the avatar shoes, the more we Become an advocate for them. And an advocate is different than a salesperson, an advocate. Imagine if you're in a courtroom, for example, and something's happening that affects you, and your attorney stands up behind you, puts his hand on your shoulder and says, my client deserves. You know, your honor, I object. You know, this is somebody advocating on your behalf. This is somebody standing up for you, having your back, caring for you. You know, what happens to you affects them, that kind of thing. There's a big difference between, by the way, the words customer and client. A customer is somebody who buys from you. A client is somebody who's in your care. Big difference. So as an advocate for an avatar, you already start out just by framing it that way, at a higher level of service and connectivity and congruency than you ever would if. Okay, look, I got prospects over here, and I'm a salesperson. Let's roll up our sleeves and do battle. Well, already you're down the decision tree. You've already made some certain decisions about your relations, relationship. So it kind of, in a sense, it's already too late. You've established a conflict. And we're going to win this sales war, gentlemen. If we have to beat the clients into submission, you know, that's where you're starting at. But if you can say, who is our avatar? What do they need? And how are we advocates for them? Maybe you can come to a different, better, closer understanding, higher level of service, and maybe make it effortless. Come up with a different question, have a different answer, and maybe they're lining up to buy and you don't have to do anything. Make sense.

Makes a lot of sense. See, I was listening to a talk from our friend Amir Ayal. He also talks about designing products in such a way that people don't have to be persuaded. So one of the things that he talked about was he gave an example of an email. Nobody needs persuasion use email because they just always constantly checking, did I get a new email? And in fact, when they send an email, they don't get any immediate benefit, but it puts a trigger for the future. Saying, did I get a response to that email.

Opens a loop, and they can't not close it because in their mind they have to complete it. And it also talks about WhatsApp, no need to persuade, because we all have global friends. Then you want to talk to them. It makes it very easy to just add their phone number and make a phone call. And after that you got stuck with it. Because now you are always thinking, what has come? What have My friends told us no need for any persuasion there. If we design habit forming products, then only one time you need to raise awareness for the products and after that they self persuade themselves.

Or in fact if you just use the example of WhatsApp, every user became an advocate of the platform.

Same as Hotmail when it first started, same as Hotmail.

So another way to completely eliminate persuasion is it's not the WhatsApp guy calling me and telling me, ravi, you need to download WhatsApp, my friend is telling me. So the social proof automatically eliminates the whole process of the company persuading a customer.

And this is why partnering with your prospects, partnering with your people who you think need to be persuaded more earlier and more often in the process. The more you partner with them, the more that they can design the process and the product and everything so that it benefits them from the start. Eric Ries talks about it in Lean Startup where he wants you to iterate and fail fast and reproduce, have more and more.

Minimum viable products that you test and then you come back and get the feedback and test again and release things in a minimum viable fashion because he wants you to partner with your potential buyers or users earlier and more often. So instead of taking your funding, going 18 months into the lab and not coming out until you finish your Frankenstein creation and then bring it to everybody and say, congratulations, happy birthday, here's your product. And they say, you know, we don't want that fail. You know, that's not what we're interested in. You burn through your money and your time and it's too late. So he says slap something together and in 30 days releasing the site, what do you think of this? What would you change? Go back into the lab suit and you can go back 18 times. If you do a 30 day iteration cycle, by the 18th time you really partnered with your prospect or your user base or whatever. Instead of just hoping.

Now that we've made something, we're going to have to take this thing and sell it and persuade because we didn't partner with our user base or our customers or something. So partnership is a great framework to look at. Instead of top down command and control, we've got to move these units. Look at it from a partnership of how would you like us to help you? How would you make this better? What would you design if you had the magic wand, that kind of thing. Partnership is a powerful framework.

Yeah. Even before the Lean Startup, Reid Hoffman, the co founder of LinkedIn, he has a famous quote saying if you're not embarrassed by Your first product release, then you have launched it too late.

Exactly right.

I was thinking that from an entrepreneur perspective, the art of persuasion, or the act of it, can actually be very expensive because some will, some won't. And you're unnecessarily spending all your energy on pure statistics. Right, on moving people. The strategy you are mentioning in the conversation today is truly brilliant because you can put a similar amount of energy on the other end and your funnel will be much better. Because you are talking the language of the advocate. You are talking instead of just saying, I am going to persuade a thousand people and I expect a 5% conversion. It sounds so dumb in a way, because you are talking statistics, why don't you do the thousand, maybe bit more intelligently? So your conversion is a thousand.

And this is where we learn from causes. You know, when Gandhi did his famous salt march, he didn't send a memo to Everybody with a WhatsApp message, I'm.

Walking, everybody, please follow me.

He didn't send a direct response, copywritten postcard of the features and benefits of why the salt march would be a good idea. He just did something, created something or tapped into something that was in everybody else's best interest to do as well, and they voluntarily filed in behind him. He didn't. It wasn't a planned.

Campaign or crusade where they went door to door and signed people up and got a petition. It just spontaneously happened. Because in that particular instance, he was part of something bigger that other people felt the need to. So there was zero persuasion required. They persuaded themselves, they joined. And you see this in many social movements is people just do it because it's what they want to do. So how can we create desire instead of persuade? How can we tap into what's in it for you? Why should you do this? Why would I do it if I were, again, the advocate and the avatar? Why would I do it if I were you with this work on me? I mean, persuasion is useful, don't get me wrong. And I've spent a lot of time studying ways to do it, but I prefer to not need it. And I would rather have people study how to not need it than to be good at it. It should be a weapon of last defense when you've exhausted all the other possibilities instead of your first weapon because it's inefficient compared to. Would you rather have sails that you got from kung fu tactics and dark arts that you learned, or an army behind you marching to the same place that you're going to, that you never had to say a word to them. It's a big difference.

In fact, we are getting close to.

The 15 minutes, so should we all say the last comment on this topic?

Yeah. Shall I? So I was thinking.

Basically what I've learned from the short conversation, Mr. Ling, we would definitely love to have you back, is eliminate persuasion from the source. Basically, the entrepreneur doesn't do the persuasion. Do everything where your users persuade other users to use it. So we are essentially doing persuasion, but you are not doing it or actually.

You'Re just allowing people to persuade themselves.

Persuade themselves or tell other friends.

I guess persuasion is happening if I've decided I want to do it because I want to do it. I guess I've had a conversation with my own self and persuaded my own self, but it's a lot better. It's the best ringing endorsement of all. If I can have Robby persuade Ravi.

Exactly.

Because you're the one you're going to listen to the most.

Yes.

You're the key influencer.

You're the key influencer. You love your voice.

Exactly.

And you listen to it.

Great.

So the last comment from me is that what I took away is that for any product there are a set of people, the product is designed right. There are a set of people who will self persuade themselves, which means rather than doing a spray and pray kind of campaign, we just go back to the drawing board and see who are the people that require very low persuasion or somebody who will self persuade themselves to say, I love this product, give it to me. We have to hunt for those people. That requires more thinking.

Excellent. Well, Sterling, thank you so much and have a safe flight today back home. And this is Ravi Gunlapalli signing off. You can find more about me@mentorcloud.com this.

Is Rajesh Sethi and you can find more of me on my website, Rajeshseti.com Sterling, where can they find more about you?

Sterlingvalentine.com and of course, listen to Raj and Ravi because I shouldn't have to persuade you to. If you've got any value, you've probably already persuaded yourself.

What a great ending for Sterling. Thank you so much.

Thank you, guys.