Episode 9 on The Power of White Space

Hello there. Welcome to episode number nine. This is Ravi Gundapalli, founder, CEO of Mentor Cloud.

This is Rajesh Seti. I am a serial entrepreneur.

Excellent, Rajesh. So the topic we picked before we hit the record button is the power of white space. So, Rajesh, what does white space mean to you?

Yeah, white space for me is space that is available to you where you have not planned anything in particular, but you have the space to think and create something.

Okay, so it's a space in your day, like between meetings, weekends.

Yeah, because for me, white space is space where whatever you want to do, you can do, but you decide what that is and that is where for me, I think it's a space of new possibilities. That something that you have not thought about in your whole day. Right. If you are very busy, 10 to 10:30, I am going to do this. 10:30 to 11, I am going to do this. Then I will do that. Then I will do this whole day is booked. Where is the space for new possibilities?

You know, it is a very interesting thing because true innovation happens only in white space. Because when you are doing, you already thought about it and you're now in the act of doing, there's very less thinking in a way. Right. So only when you take that silent walk in the park, only when you are waking up in the middle of the night or some.

Solo car ride, your brain is now kind of blossoming because it is not tasked with a task. So the hidden jewels suddenly see light and say beautiful ideas come out. I've solved some very tough problems in my PhD because of that white space. And I think it's very, very important to strategically make sure your life has white space in it.

Correct, Correct. And the interesting thing, Ravi, that I have found is people say, I'm extremely busy. I'm extremely busy. And then I ask them, do you use Facebook by any chance? Yeah, I'm always on Facebook. And then they just told me they are extremely busy and immediately say, I am on. It's on my cell phone, one tab is always open. So basically they can't handle white space, many of them. Because if something is really empty, people think, why is there a white space in my life? Let me fill it. And Facebook or anything that is easy to get tempted. It's always there.

You know, you bring up a very important point, kind of bringing up social media as an auto fill for any white space that we used to have in the past. We were not interrupted with notifications as horribly as today. Twenty years ago, if you finished a task you would just walk or read a book or just sit silently, have a cup of coffee. But today you are naturally drawn to a phone and seeing who emailed me, who shared a photo, who liked it. So these external impulses coming in have really leave zero room for any white space.

Exactly. And the power is within them only because nobody is. Facebook is not. They have not signed a contract with Facebook or any social media or anything where they have said 22 hours in a week I have to work on social media and engage or anything. Nobody has said it. It's by volition. They have chosen to spend it, which means they can choose not to spend that time and create more white space.

I mean, absolutely. I was recently listening to Neil Eyal, the author of the book Hooked. He talked about habit forming products. And I think one of the points he makes is.

The social network technologies are kind of designed to kind of draw us into kind of using them all the time. So you have to kind of lay the rules and the habits to say I'm going to do Facebook between 9 and 10am and 9 and 10pm and then I'm going to do certain things because that's when you can really do something that you didn't even know you are capable of.

Correct. Just for the record, Nir is a close friend of ours so we can't say anything negative about him.

Oh, I said very positive things about him.

No, what I was going to say may look like negative. That's why I was pretty prefacing it. Basically Nir is brilliant, right? So he is helping companies create habit forming products which means we have to have the mental power to resist somebody like Nir's brilliance and still not get tempted and say, you know, I will have some white space. I know Nir and genius people like that are creating products that will make me get hooked. But I choose whether I want to get hooked and how much I want to get hooked.

Exactly. In fact, he made a very powerful statement. He said, I support habit forming products as long as that habit is not part of their business model which is so powerful because it is not how much you use your platform that makes you more money. He said, I would never encourage such companies like a Zynga making you play 24 hour games. He said, I don't want that. So any habits that are not tied to the company's business model but are more tied to the value creation of the user, if the business model is tied to that, then I think he said that's a good habit. As a company that he supports. So I think we kind of went off into the habit forming from white space. So the power of white space again is to be able to kind of reflect on what happened, what is going to happen, where am I going? And I think it's that reflective time. Do you agree?

Yeah, yeah. See, one of the things that has helped me a lot is I have what are called To Think lists. So basically, just like everybody has to do lists, I use trello and I have a board called To Think lists. So basically, to think, to think, to do, to think. So if you say something, for example, you will tell at the end of this conversation or after this conversation, you will say, rajesh, have you thought about this concept? And then I say, I have not thought about it. But if I promise you I will think about it. And you ask me, when will you think about that? Don't know. But the white space, I know for sure. I create white space. But if I get worried that what will I do? Because blank is something that people are not used to, I just open my trello and say, what did I want to think about that I didn't have the time to think about? I will start going and thinking with a piece of paper, say whatever comes to my mind, I will start writing. And that is the time to reflect. Sometimes the To Think list is empty, which is scary that I should have something to think about. If it is empty, then I use the time to add things to the To Think list.

In fact, that's an interesting point. I think everybody should have those lists, first of all, because it's not only to think. Also there are certain things that we love to do. We should have those lists also because sometimes what we love to do get really sidetracked because of all the things that we are doing because we are so busy, we are getting notified all the time and we forget to hear the artists that we love of musicians.

So we kind of sacrifice on the things that we love. So it's almost that the white space is required so that we can go back and really do that. Because when we do what we love, naturally, our own human emotions, our own stress levels greatly go down.

I totally agree with you. Totally agree with you. The other thing that has worked for me to maintain the white space, Ravi. And this is not something that I'm telling all the people should do it. I don't have anything in my life where people can easily interrupt me. I'm not on chat, I'm not on Skype. If somebody text me, I said, I'm Very clumsy. So I will not be able to respond very quickly unless it's really, really urgent. Don't text me. So that I am not at the mercy of some interruption.

I think it's more around. So your white space, you are kind of connecting to being very highly productive. You don't want to be interrupted.

Yeah, in general I don't want to be interrupted because.

Especially if you are doing right brain work, Ravi, interruption is a roadkill because you are thinking about it and then there is enough research, you and I know that there is enough research that you get interrupted to get back to the same rhythm and mindset and attitude and everything. It takes time.

Correct?

Correct.

So coming back.

We wanted to talk about this power of white space now because we both agree that white space is where creativity happens. White space is where we feel comfortable with ourselves, not with the task. But then there are challenges in today's world where creating the white space in the day is not that easy. So what are some tips, Rajesh, that people can have white spaces in their day and in their week?

Yeah, especially there is one tip that has worked for me because I have been an entrepreneur for a long time. So before I was an entrepreneur, I used to work for a couple of large companies. And there the calendar is always shared. That means they think if you have not booked anything, then you are available to be booked. That means, oh, Ravi is free there. You may be working on a report and you may not have put there, but you think, oh, 10 to 11, Ravi is free. Let me book a meeting with Ravi. So the calendar availability. Right. So it means if you are not meeting with someone, you are available to meet.

Oh, because other people don't know they are actually working on something.

Exactly. So one thing that has worked for me is I used to have meetings called MWM meeting with me. And then this MWM will stay there, it will close it. So that way they know that I am busy. They don't know that I am busy. I am creating a white space to keep myself busy.

Yeah. You know, that's so funny you said meeting with me because I was actually thinking about this, you know, creating a personal appointment with yourself.

Yes.

You know, because that I think I find it extremely, extremely valuable because why should everything be with somebody else? I have so much to discover about myself, about what is it that I really like to do, what is it that excites me, that inspires me. So I think people should create those appointments with themselves. And of course, the next best thing to white space is an appointment with family.

Beautifully said. So in fact, I'm reading a new book, which you have a copy too. It's called Cartography of Negotiation. It's almost like a philosophy book. It's by a person called Scott Wayne. And then in the first chapter about negotiation, the first chapter is called you, Y O U U. And he clearly takes us through a journey of self discovery. Because when you are negotiating something, you should know why you are negotiating. And if you want to know why you are negotiating, you should know who you are, what is your calling, what is your legacy, and all this. Sometimes you get caught up in negotiation, then you forget who you are, and then you are negotiating for something that is not even important for you. So a white space kind of thing provides an opportunity for those kinds of self discovery. And your earlier question was, how do we create white space? One is booking a meeting with yourself, booking a meeting with family and all that way people are used to seeing schedules. In this schedule, it's a meeting with you. That's one. And the second thing, again, I cannot ask everybody to do whatever I am doing, but somehow reduce interruptions, which look odd, but if you reduce interruptions, you have an opportunity to actually maintain the white space. That is the second one, third one. For people that matter most to you, you can tell them that you are trying to create wide space. It's not like 50 hours a month, but three, four hours a month, like one hour a week or anything. And this is the time you're thinking to self reflect, grow and all those things. People actually appreciate it. He's in his white space, so I need to respect it.

So you have to tell the people. In fact, I'm just thinking the power of white space is not the same for everybody. Suppose if you are a very busy executive, the white space is for you to kind of de stress.

But if you're an entrepreneur, the white space may be the time for coming up with new solutions, coming up with something creative. So.

You have to make that space and kind of make it work for you depending on where you are in your journey.

I totally agree with you. So when I was discussing the same topic a few years ago, one of my friends said, oh, widespread white space is your escape from the echo chamber that you are caught into. And that I always remember that am I in an echo chamber that I am always regurgitating what I am talking and all my friends are always telling exactly. Agreeing to what I am saying or I am agreeing to what everybody is telling. This is the chance to escape from that white Space.

Yeah. Again, that's why I think.

From the echo chamber.

From the echo chamber, yes. Yeah. I think it is not to escape, but it is essentially to find yourself not from escape from the outside, but find yourself. And again, I think I highly encourage because unlike in the yesterday when there were no smartphones, when there were so many interruptions.

15, 20 years ago, white space was just natural thing and people did not.

People were not against going to a park or just taking a walk or listening to some music. But today those opportunities are very, very minimal. So you have to be a lot more conscious about this, which is, I think one of the reasons why you picked this topic today is because having that white space and using it to be valuable to something that you care about has to be done consciously.

Totally agreed. We are getting to the close of it. Maybe we should say one or two concluding remarks and move on to the next topic, I think.

Yeah. So I think it's an excellent topic. White space is where creativity happens. White space is where new solutions emerge and new discoveries happen as to who you really are and what you really know. And highly encourage people to schedule meetings on their calendars and just call it MySpace.

Oh, yeah.

Very good. My last topic is that if you have never had white space in your life, the first time you have the white space, it will be very uncomfortable for you because you are not used to it, because man is a social animal and women also is a social animal. But you had to somehow buck the temptation to go back to your normal routine and say, even if nothing happens in the first hour ever, first time somebody says, this is my white space and they don't know what to do, that should not be the reason to say, let me check my emails exactly.

In fact, maybe we can give a small homework for the listeners. Why don't they make a white space list? Now I want to listen to these songs. I want to take my spouse out for dinner. I want to think about this particular problem that I've always been excited about. Never had a chance. So it can be a combination of things that you love, things that you said you want to think. And I think I would encourage everybody to have that list so that when the white space happens, you're not scrambling what to do.

Yeah, let's say, to be specific, let's say at least come up with three things that you will do in your white space. So that way, three things that you will think about or explore. But it cannot be your. Let me complete my report in the white space. Correct.

It is not an activities time, right?

Yes, correct.

It is sort of an inactivity time in a way.

Yes, exactly. And maybe we can retouch this topic in one of the future episodes.

Yeah. How do we. How does white space lead to green space?

Yeah, right.

That's exactly what happens. Some brilliant idea comes, you go tell your team member or you want to write a book. Who knows? White leads to green.

Yeah. Beautifully said. W to G with that. Should we close this?

Yes. Thank you for listening and see you again in the next episode. Find more about me@ventecloud.com?

This is Rajesh signing off. And more about me on my blog, Rajesh Sethi.com blog.