Scaling Your Business in Uncertain Times

Today I'm with Rob Moore, the Disruptive Entrepreneur. We're going to be talking about scaling your business. I'm Joel, the director of CodeBreak Marketing Company. Rob, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much, Joel, for having me on your show.

And thanks for having me on yours. What a time to be alive. So scaling your business to 7 figures, I wanted to talk to you about this. Obviously we're in very uncertain times and You're a man that's done it yourself. I'm a man that's done it myself, and it comes with challenges that people won't expect. And I just want to talk to you about it from marketing, staff, mindset, the road ahead. Yeah. How did this journey go for you?

So I would say that there's a phrase that someone taught me 15 years ago, which was, don't get ready. Be ready. And you can't get ready for a pandemic, lockdown, or COVID. You can't get ready for that, but you can be ready. My business partner said to me in a private dinner we had about a week ago, he said that often the greatest threats to a business is governmental decision. Now, that's not necessarily saying they make wrong decisions, but they can make a decision which could kill your business overnight if you're not ready. For example, you know, lockdowns or regulation changes, etc. So I obviously didn't know the pandemic and the lockdown was going to disrupt my business significantly, um, and honestly, Joel, I could have been more ready. So I've got a lot of flaws and I make a lot of mistakes and I have my critics, but one thing people usually say is pretty good about me is that I'm usually at the front of new things and I'm usually pretty quick to react and evolve in marketplaces. Um, but I was too slow to go from national to global, and I was too slow to go from face-to-face events to online events. And therefore the massive upside of the disruption to businesses or my business through, you know, this pandemic and these uncertain times was what it taught me. So for example, I wanted to build a global training business for many years, but the stories I would say to myself is, well, you know what, I'd have to go to different countries around the world and I'd have to set up satellite offices and hire staff there. And my kids are young and I've done so much traveling and it's going to cost me so much money and I don't want to take my eye off the ball of my UK arm of my companies. So I'll wait another year, another year, another year. And that went on for 5 years. And then bang, lockdown, cannot do any live events. I go from 850 live training days a year in my 2 training companies to zero. And within a week, I had my first global online event. And then another week, I had my second. Then another week, I had my third. And we built about 15 online courses and events over the next 15 weeks. Now, I could have done that myself anytime over the last 5 years, but I didn't. So how can you, as a business owner, an entrepreneur, how can you prepare for Lockdown 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, and Variant 6, 8, and 12? Because it may not happen, but if it does, what are you going to do, moan about it? Are you going to sign a petition and send it into the government? Are you going to write to your MP? Because that's going to make no difference. But become a podcaster, become a creator, build an online training business, turn your information into income, turn your content into cash flow, find a way to sell your products and services in e-commerce, or be a consultant or an educator around your current business model. That is, I think, the way to pivot, adapt, and evolve and scale your business in uncertain times.

Sure. So do you think that hunger doesn't exist until people have a challenge like COVID?

Well, look, Joel, when you've got plenty of food around, you're probably never hungry. In fact, you probably overconsume. I've just nicked the Heroes chocolates out of the box just before we went live. Whereas if there's no food around, you become hungry. So look, I believe every challenge and downside has an upside. I really do believe that. I think it's just human emotions and an imbalanced perspective that denies that. So for example, let's look at some of the upside opportunities of pandemics, lockdowns, and disruptions to business. Number 1, it stops you being complacent. You can't be complacent as a business owner. Maybe you got a little bit comfortable, maybe you got a little bit cocky. So comfort, cockiness, and complacency, the three C's— comfort, cockiness, complacency— these are not growth attributes. These are atrophy attributes. And definitely the disruption to businesses has removed complacency, cockiness, and comfort. So that's a big upside. So the hunger has been created. So that's number 1. Taking full responsibility. Because when things are kind of OK, in lockdown 1.0, we got furloughs, we got CBILs, we got some delaying of taxes. Oh, it's OK. Just get a few loans. It'll be all right. We haven't had it this time around. So hunger either comes from within or without. I think if hunger comes from within, a meaningful vision and mission, a desire to serve vast numbers of people, you know, wanting to make a difference to a lot of people, always looking for the next level. I think that's, you know, what true entrepreneurs are able to find it from within. But sometimes you have to do what you can and find it from outside too.

Yeah, so something you've touched on there which I think is important with scaling is obviously you're a hungry business owner, you did scale pre-COVID, But what was the difference between the hunger pre-COVID and the hunger when the shit hit the fan?

Yeah, um, so the hunger pre-COVID actually went back to when I was about 11 years old, when I was the fattest kid in my class, in my year at school. And, um, so for 3 years before I lost all the weight in this really extreme diet, I've actually had a not a great relationship with food ever since because of that, and I'm fricking nearly 43. But what happened was I felt emotionally bullied. I felt ostracized and alienated and lonely. And some of it was real, Joel, but some of it just was in my head because that's what we do, don't we? And I developed these people-pleasing skills in order to cope and in order to fit in. I was able to avoid conflict at all costs and morph myself based on the people that was around me to just make sure that I wasn't pushed out. But then when I lost the weight, I didn't lose all of these feelings of insecurity and need to be liked and need to be included. And that actually, that void, that hole that was created in me was part of it, was 50% of the drive of me being an entrepreneur. And whilst now I've learned to hone it better and see it as an upside, not just a downside, because remember, I think everything has an upside, that for me has been a burning fuel and desire to be noticed, to matter, to make a difference. And, you know, when I started, that was maybe a more selfish venture. But as I scaled, I was able to turn that void inside into a value and make it a selfless venture. Um, so my dad ended up having a nervous breakdown in 2005 when he'd raised me to be an entrepreneur and put me through school and university. That definitely, um, created a from-within burning desire and motivation, you know, pre-lockdown and uncertain times. Um, but then I've read 3,000 books pre-lockdown. And I really do believe that you can stand on the shoulders of giants and own the traits of the greats and learn from them, you know, the millionaire mentors. But lockdown and COVID is a lesson in business you couldn't get in business school and you couldn't get in business books. I didn't need to read any business books through COVID. I just needed to run a business and figure out all this new stuff because no one's been through it before. No one alive has been through a business environment like this because the last time something like this happened was previous generations. So in every stressing lies a blessing. And so what I've tried to do is find the blessings of these uncertain times. And they say what— doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. You know, evolution is essentially challenge that forces growth. It's a mutation away. And so if you think about business evolution, it's a mutation away from what you used to do into something new. There's some thoughts.

Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of mindset around that How, when, when things were pretty dark in March, April last year, what, what techniques did you employ to make sure that your focus was in the right place and that you were ready to face the challenge?

So I'll tell you the biggest mistake I made, um, when the lockdown was announced, Joel. It was I lost myself. And you know, when the world is losing itself around you it's pretty hard not to lose yourself.

Sure.

And there's Radiohead, one of my favourite bands, and there's a lyric, 'For a minute there, I lost myself.' And for a minute there in lockdown, I lost myself. And I'll tell you what happened, Joel, and I'll tell you the lesson. So I'm a guy that believes there's always a solution, there's always an upside. I believe when there's disruption and challenge, actually, that's your advantage because everyone else struggles and therefore, When you solve it, you rise to the top. I'm very positive. I always drive positivity and proactivity and speed and solutions through my entire enterprise. I worked out, Joe, we've got 250 people on our books, on our payroll, in and out of office, consultant and staff member. But when the lockdown happened, for probably 2 to 3 months, I bought into the fear. I bought into the panic. Of all the people around me, and I became a little scared, and I focused on the emergency rather than continuing with the vision. I took my eye off the vision because there was an emergency. The captain of the ship looking in the horizon, but the engine's failing, so he runs into the engine room to help all the guys fix the engine. That's what I did in lockdown, and now I shouldn't have done that, Joel. Because, you know, my guys can do that. I should have stayed as the captain of the ship looking into the horizon. And so I did, to a certain degree, buy into some other people's fear and panic, and it leaked out into me, and I made some short-term decisions. And maybe they saved the ship, but, you know, I sold some assets I shouldn't have sold because, you know, we thought it was really important to be liquid. Um, yeah, many of those assets have gone up crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy since. Sold some Bitcoin, sold some watches. I sold an RM 11 Richard Mille, $95,000 I sold it for. It's $250,000 now. I sold a lot of Bitcoin. It's a lot. I think I sold it at $10,000 and then it went up to $70,000. Now I've read in books, you know, observe the masses, do the opposite, be greedy when everyone is fearful. Fearful when everyone is greedy. So I know this in my head, Joel, but when the world is panicking around you, it's very difficult. And that was my greatest lesson, my greatest lesson. And so when I say I lost myself, I became what everyone else was. Not much, but, you know, scared and critical and, oh, you just got to fix this, let's just fix this, you know, just fight and hustle and, you know, just keep the ship I should have stayed on vision, stayed on mission, been belligerent because I'm that guy in my organisation. So if I'm going and fixing the engine, who's the guy in the organisation? That was my greatest lesson that I picked up. It's such a valuable lesson. And ultimately, Joel, what is that lesson? Rob, be yourself no matter what.

How did you get back on vision then?

I did actually help go fix the engine. Now, I just want to put this into context, Joel. Uh, we've had a brilliant last 5 months in our company, and I'm not— I totally respect that it's hard for some businesses. And if you watch me on my social media, I'm campaigning hard for small businesses. I'm letting people pitch their products and services in my thread. I'm going live most days talking about what's going on in the world and saying, look, save the small business. I'm making a campaign So I'm trying to be selfless about this and not just moan if it's hard for me. We've had, pound for pound, we've had probably the best 5 months in our training businesses probably since we've been going 16 years. My business partner showed me a profit and loss statement. And in November 2021, so last month, we made £13,477,000 in one of our properties. £13.5 million. Now, it was rolled up for the year, but that's there on the profit and loss. I showed that to people as proof. But, but, but, but, um, I want to make sure that everyone else is okay. And so how I got myself out was to, um, remember who I am and remember my role and manage my emotions. So sometimes as an entrepreneur, it's very difficult to remember who you are. Because you're a salesman, marketer, you know, chief cook and bottle washer, as my dad used to say. You do a bit of everything. So have clear KRAs, key result areas. Know what your income-generating tasks are and remember who you are. But that being said, Joel, we were losing £100 grand a month in our training businesses, probably Feb to June, July, we, you know, burn through a lot of cash. So to summarize, answering— I just need to put some context in there. Sure, I know it's a bit fragmented, but the context is important. Number 1, be clear on who you are. Number 2, be clear on your role. Number 3, once you've plugged the hole in the ship, then get back up on deck and, you know, look into the horizon Number 4, manage your emotions. Don't let other people dictate your emotions. And that's not— that's easier said than done when you read the media every day and it's full of panic and fear. But I don't have to be scared and I don't have to panic just because the world is. Why do I have to do that? So what I try and work on, Joel, a lot is no matter what's going on around me, know who I am, know my role, and manage my own emotions, and be in control of how I feel. So something I try and work on, for example, is to transcend all criticism and all praise, but all criticism. You can say what you want about me, it makes no difference. I've been practicing the art of not caring even if my friends talk behind my back to me. Because, you know, I think one of the things that people dislike the most is when people they think that they know, like, and trust talk behind their back to them. But everyone does it. I've done it, you've done it. And what does it matter if they do it? Doesn't matter. It's their opinion. Fine, they're allowed to share it. It's none of my business because they didn't tell me. So transcending emotion, transcending criticism, transcending negativity— those things really help you focus back on your core areas and key result areas and roles within your organization. But, but Joe, you've got to have those in the first place. An entrepreneur could do 25 different things in a day, but what are the 3 main things you should be doing?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, what are your priorities? And don't get too carried away with, with the peaks, as well as don't get too dragged down by the troughs. So On that, for somebody who's maybe at 6 figures now but looking to scale to 7 figures, I know from personal experience you can get to 6 figures through graft, through the hustle and hard work. I think taking that next step is where you have to be the captain of the ship, where you have to be a leader, not just a really good worker. How did you make that change from pushing to that point and then becoming the captain of the ship?

Okay, so you have to let go to grow, and I always remind myself of that when I'm getting drawn into tasks that are lower value than I should be focused on. So as you said, you can get the 6 figures by doing most of it yourself— your own admin, booking your own events, booking your own travel and accommodation, and doing the selling, and doing the marketing, and sending out the invoices, and updating the website, and doing your content on socials. You can get to 6 figures on that and a bit of part-time admin, but you can't get to 7, and you can't get to 8. And you can't get to 9. So you have to let go to grow. So getting outsourcers, refusing to do admin, knowing your income-generating value— in my book Life Leverage, I did a whole chapter on understanding and working out your income-generating value so you know what your work time's worth per hour. Because a lot of people look at hiring a staff member or a salary as an expense, but it's an investment. Because if you're worth £100 an hour— by the way, most entrepreneurs should be worth thousands an hour— but if you're worth £100 an hour and you're doing admin that you could be paying £12 an hour to outsource, you're costing yourself and your company £88 an hour. So you have to understand the difference between a cost and an investment. And when you hire someone, you get them free for 30 days and then you pay 1/12 of their salary, and then you get them free for another 30 days and then you pay another 1/12 of their salary. And I like to observe the masses and do the opposite when it comes to business. So the masses are like, don't want staff, don't want headaches. You know, if you want a job done properly, you have to do it yourself. You know, yada yada yada. No one will ever do the job as well as you. No one can ever sell as well as me. Whereas the opposite is, Joel's a better speaker than me. Joel's a better salesperson than me. This person I can recruit in Peterborough is a more specialist coder or event manager or designer than me. You have to let go to grow, and, um, you have to know what your priorities are. You have to be good at saying no to anything that's not a priority. You have to be able to set boundaries. You have to master and own your own time. Otherwise, someone will master and own your time on them. And that never changes because if you're worth $1,000 an hour now, in 3 years, you'll be worth $5,000 an hour. And in 10 years, you'll be worth $10,000 an hour. So you've always got to look at the bigger value tasks to move towards and outsourcing all the new lower value tasks. So I'll give you an example, Joel. I have a driver. And sometimes I don't talk about that much because people think I'm just being opulent. A driver saves me money. A driver saves me a lot of money. It would be a cost not to have a driver, and it's an investment to have a driver. Number one, I can get 3 hours work done on a journey, whereas if I had to get the train, a load of faff and hassle, and then getting and then, you know, settling down, and then the changing, and then the Wi-Fi not working very well, and and all that. It's a faff. Whereas the driver picks me up, takes me, you know, door to door and back again. So I can get 2 or 3 hours work done on the way, 2 or 3 hours work done on the way back. My time's worth a good few grand an hour, and I only pay, you know, in the low hundreds for the driver. So you've got to look at opportunity cost and investment versus cost.

So how did you do that when, uh, you said yourself you were a people pleaser? And I think the trap a six-figure entrepreneur might fall into is they're trying to keep everybody happy rather than learning to say no. How did you make that transition from being the people pleaser that wants to fit in to the entrepreneur that's willing to say no for the good of the business?

Well, everything I've learned in business has come from a combination of Being mentored by really experienced business owners way ahead of the game than me, billionaires and things like that. Studying, you know, books and courses, etc. And then going on my own journey. They're the 3 main ways I've learned and they all work. You can't find how to be a billionaire on Google for free like a lot of people think you can. So business taught me that if I didn't learn to say no, then it would be very damaging to my mental health and my ability to be productive because I'd be making too many commitments. And in the end, when you make too many commitments, you let too many people down, and then that comes back to haunt you. So business teaches you that. Business teaches you to sometimes, you know, defend yourself and not be bullied, or, um, sometimes you have to go legal on someone and shut them down when there's defamation, etc. So business taught me to harden up because I learned the consequences of being soft.

Yeah.

So business taught me that. But I suppose what I learned, Joel, the most is the more you like yourself, the less you need to be liked by others. And so I've gone on this journey to try and like myself more, be comfortable with who I am. Own my strengths and think, you know what, Rob, you're not bad at those things. Give yourself a pat on the back, you ain't so bad. But then also be comfortable with what I'm shit at and say, do you know what, it doesn't make me a bad person, you know, I just have got bad fashion sense and that's okay. So being honest about what you're good at, being honest about what you're not good at, owning both of those, being okay with those, loving yourself for those. That is, the more you value yourself, the less you need validation from others. The more you own your own great traits, the less you care about what other people think about them. The more you own your own flaws, the less you're bothered about what people think about them. Now, in every walk of life people will hate about you, what's great about you. And so when you people please, essentially what you do, Joel, is you morph yourself to be subservient to their values.

Yeah.

But then you lose who you are. Yeah. So, um, no one can make me feel something about myself that I don't already feel about myself. So if I'm getting criticized or I think, oh, that cut me, I look at why did that cut me, why did that hurt me? Because I've disowned it in myself, or because there was actually useful feedback in that criticism. But I try and do this as an ongoing personal development, Joel, because the happier I am with who I am The more I have the courage to be disliked and the more I can make strong decisions, decisions that a lot of people aren't going to like.

Yeah, yeah, that's huge. Something else you touched on there that I think will really help those businesses that are scaling is a habit that we identify in our clients a lot, is they spend a long time trying to fix what they're not good at and spend no time on what they're really good at. But when you become comfortable with who you are and comfortable with what you're great at and also comfortable with what you're bad at, you're less precious about getting other people to do it.

Yeah, I just want people who are really good at what I'm really bad at. So much easier in life. What an entrepreneur who's good does is hire a load of specialists who are great in the areas that they're not. And the entrepreneur can become the visionary or the leader or to a certain degree, the generalist. But I'm totally okay with you being better than me at X, Y, and Z. And, you know, for a while there, a lot of people were recommending that you've got to fix your weaknesses. Some weaknesses you should just let go and be okay that that's just not you. And that's okay. So then you can focus on developing those strengths.

Yeah, absolutely. I think there's a strength in being willing to identify your weaknesses, and that's something very few people— ego gets in the way of that. So last question, you've been so generous with your experience here. The road ahead for someone scaling their business, what should they look out for?

Opportunities in uncertain times. Uh, soil is very fertile after there's been a harvest, when everything has been leveled. So we may have a leveling right now, some kind of economic correction or crash, you know, some businesses struggling, going bust, going under, big and small. We may be accelerating the speed of evolution and the survival of the fittest and the most adaptable to change. So what's the opportunity? What's the upside and the downside? You know, there's the creator economy, there's social tokens, there's cryptocurrencies, there's the metaverse, there's a whole load of opportunities now. There's, you know, global events on Zoom, running seminars to thousands of people sat at home on your computer, the collaboration economy of You know, people being on each other's podcasts and on each other's YouTubes and on each other's TikToks and working together, not against each other. So you've just always got to see the upside and the downside. Now, one of my mentors teaches me that wisdom is having a balanced perspective. No event is all upside or downside. Every event is neutral. Everything is perfectly balanced, and it's human emotion that takes us out— depression and elation— to become one-sided. So much of the world and the media is one-sided, isn't it? You know, pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine. Yeah, exactly, polarized. But you know, this— there would be an upside of having a lockdown and a downside of having a lockdown. There would be an upside of this new virus and a downside of this new virus. And some people struggle to see the upside because it's human emotion or a lack of a balanced perspective.

Yeah.

So whenever you're challenged or in fear or you're not growing or you're struggling or whatever, I believe the best tool and the trick is to go, what's the upside in this situation? You know, I could list a load of upsides with the pandemic and COVID. Definitely closer to my family. Definitely value living where I live more. I think my company is more adaptable to change now. It's taught me a load of lessons. It's reminded me who I am. It's got me a global following and a global audience and a global revenue stream. It got me on Clubhouse and I'm one of the top 100 followed people on Clubhouse. You know, we met through this and, you know, our podcast and social media agency has exploded, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, upside that I couldn't see initially. Now, of course, there's the downsides, but we all bloody know those. So it's always seeing the upside in the downside, and that's what most people can't do.

I love that. I love that. Rob, this has been awesome. Thank you so much.

Cheers, Joe. What's the name of your podcast so we can shout it out on my channel?

I was just getting there. So if people, uh, want to listen to more of this stuff, the Stay Hungry podcast is available on all major platforms. Uh, this is sort of episode 200 or something, so there's plenty to get your teeth into.

So it's called Stay Hungry?

Correct.

Okay, great. And then my podcast is called The Disruptive Entrepreneur, if you want to go and listen to that. I think we're episode 769 now, so holy, holy smoke. Um, Joel, if you want to come back into the comments and put the links in the comments, that'd be great. And thanks for having me on your show.

Will do. Great to chat. Cheers, Rob.