044: Making Blogging Your Business with the Healthy Maven Davida Kugelmass

Namaste, it's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. I'm really excited to share this week's episode with you, which is with the Healthy Maven, aka DaVita. So you may recognize Davida from her blog, her podcast or her YouTube, but she is an amazing down to earth blogger who really just shares like the things that bloggers don't really talk about. So in this episode we discuss kind of like the behind the scenes stuff about blogging, which are questions that I know a lot of you guys have had for me. A lot of you guys in my Doshas and Dharma program, which is my four week coaching program to help people find their purpose, have vocalized that you want to be a blogger, that you want to create online content, whether it's through YouTube, YouTube or through podcasting. But a lot of people aren't really sure, like how do blogs work with companies? How do you, you know, generate your following? How do you make money doing all of this? So Davita really keeps it real and like shares all of the behind the scenes stuff in this episode. So I love, love, love this because, you know, so much of being your highest self is being able to sustain yourself. And if you're not making money doing what you love, then you're really not going to be able to do it for long enough. And I think a lot of spiritual people have this block that they can't ask for money for what they're worth. And the thing is when you do that, you're actually selling yourself short. Because if you're not asking, you know, money is energy and if you're saying if you're giving your energy and you're not getting energy back, whether it's money or whether it's a trade or something, then you're going to end up feeling depleted. And the thing is, you're probably going to stop doing that thing. So again, this isn't with everything, but if it's your full time gig, I mean, we do live in a world where we have to pay rent and health care bills and things like that. And we all like a good, you know, coconut water. So all of these things add up and it is possible to do what you love, but you are going to have to ask or create money out of it. So we talk about that in this episode and I'm really excited to share it with you. So while you guys listen to this, I am in India right now in Kerala, in South India. So follow me on Instagram at. I am Sahara Rose. Hopefully at this point, nothing's gone horrible on my trip because I haven't left yet. I'm recording this before I leave and I. I'm really excited to share with you guys on my Instagram. I am creating a lot of really cool video content for you guys about my trip, which I'll be sharing with you afterwards. So stay tuned. Follow me there. And we will always take this discussion on the Mind Body Balancers Facebook group. So if you're an aspiring blogger, you want to learn more about DaVita, you want to just dive deeper into the blogger world, chat with us there and I'll have all of her links in the show notes. So namaste and enjoy this episode. Welcome, DeVita. I am so excited to have you here on the Highest Self podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. It's fun to be on the other side of the mic.

I know. As we were just talking about, now I just get to sit back and enjoy and you have to entertain us all.

Pressure is on.

Well, that's so amazing. And I'm just so excited to talk about all things blogging and food and everything with you. And the first question that I want to ask you is, what makes you your highest self?

Yeah, I mean, I think you can answer that question in so many different ways, but I'm going to kind of take it from the perspective of, like, what makes me feel like my highest self. So what it is that I need to be doing and engaging in in order to feel at that level or that version of myself. And I really think that, like, being creative and tapping into my creativity is really what makes me feel at my highest self. And we kind of jumped into this a little bit before we started recording, but just the idea that I'm producing a lot of work all the time, and I know people think I'm kind of crazy for it, but truthfully, it just makes me feel, like, so alive and so productive and just it fills me up in a way that nothing else really does. So really, just when I get to engage in some sort of creative activity and be able to share it, because I also do creative things that I'm not sharing with the world all the time. And that, to a degree, really helps fill me up. But at the same time, I think being able to do things like writing blog posts or photography or making new recipes and that kind of stuff and then being able to share it, it just adds this level of value where I know that I'm Being helpful to other people. And so I think it's sort of a fusion of getting to tap into my creative Right. Brain side and then also be able to communicate that to my readers and to whoever wants to list. And they very well might not be my readers, but maybe it's my mom. But if I get to be able to, like, communicate what it is that I'm working on and how I think it might be helpful, that that's really where I feel like I'm at my highest self.

I love that so much. And I can totally relate. I feel like I have the exact same energy as you because I also feel my happiest when I am productive. And I think a lot of creative people agree because it just, you know, just like, sitting and doing nothing or vegging out, like, that can be okay sometimes. But really, when we feel alive is when we're in this creative flow that in Sanskrit, it's called kriya. The word is literally to be like. Like boundless, effortless action. And that's totally how you feel when you're blogging. It's, like, effortless, even though you're, like, doing a lot of things.

Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what it is, is that it doesn't feel like work. I mean, I have moments where there are aspects of what I do that definitely feel like work. But for the most part, when I'm really focused on the creative stuff, that's when I just. I feel like I'm in my groove. I get it. I know how to do it, and I really, really enjoy it. And I think that that's really the whole point. That being said, I definitely am all for, like, vegging out and taking a break. I've come to learn that burnout is a very real thing and that if I'm not respectful of my boundaries, then I really don't get anything done. So I can just kind of twiddle my thumbs and think that I'm being productive, and I'm really not. So I'm all about kind of work hard, play hard. Not at such extremes, but just, like, when I'm focused and when I am sort of in that creative zone, I'm definitely very much in that zone. And when I'm not, I really don't try and tap into it at all, because I just. I can't. I gotta shut it off at some. At some point, I just. I gotta stop.

Mm. And I want to talk about that more with you. So people who've never been on thehealthymaven.com or seen her podcast. Davita is blogging for a living, which is something that I think a lot of listeners dream of doing one day. So I want to hear more about your journey. I know you. You lived in Canada and you moved to San Francisco recently. So what was that journey like for you? You know, first discovering that blogging is your passion. How did you come across that and then make the move and make this into your career? It's like lots of changes at once, and you're managing it so beautifully.

Yeah, I mean, it. It really starts from where I was in sort of my early 20s. I just wasn't feeling creatively inspired in what I was doing. I was. I was working, but I was just like, there's gotta be more to life than this. I had, at the same time kind of discovered this passion in the health and wellness space, but my friends sort of thought I was a little bit crazy, that I was, like, super into Chia Seeds and, like, was meal planning and all that stuff that just seemed really foreign to them. And so I was just seeking a community of people who I could connect with on these subjects. That being said, the version of me then was definitely a lot more extreme, which is something I kind of struggle with, is sort of falling into extremes. But I was a little bit more obsessive in the health and wellness world than I am now. And much of that journey has been chronicling over the last four and a half years since I started it. And I really have just been super honest since I started it about where I'm at, the things that I'm struggling with, the things that I'm successful at, and at the same time, also sharing a lot of valuable resources, like recipes for healthy granola bars or this new workout studio I found that I really love. So I've always been about sort of sharing my experiences, my very personal experiences. I'm like the last person to ever tell you how to eat, how to move your body. I'm all for just kind of sharing the things I've discovered, and if you enjoy it, that's awesome. And if you don't, feel free to move on. But I kind of just started it, really, just as this passion project, and it sort of morphed into something more than I ever could have expected. And I think that's a combination of sort of luck and people finding it and connecting with it, which is not something you can necessarily control. And also just so deeply loving this world and getting to be a part of it that I really threw myself into it. Pretty forcefully. So once again, we're at that sort of extreme thing. So I fell into it and I loved it and really just felt like I had nothing to lose. So after about a year and a half, I took it on full time. And it's been three. Over three years now. And it's been amazing. It's come with its struggle at times, but I really love the flexibility of it and also just the creative side of everything. And every day I discover something new about myself, about this community. And just I feel like it has induced so much growth within me, which I never could have expected. And I mean, it allowed me to move from where I was living in Toronto out to San Francisco because I have that kind of mobility. So there's so many reasons why I love it. But, like we kind of touched on before, there is sort of a whole other side, the business side of things that are. That makes it a lot more challenging than I think a lot of people realize, which I'm more than happy to talk about. But it hasn't been easy. 100% trying to monetize your passion. It is really, really challenging. But I think when you find something that you absolutely love, you just figure it out along the way.

Totally. And I love how you bring up all parts of it because it really starts as a passion. But for you to do your passion full time, you obviously have to figure out ways to monetize it. Do you know the Japanese word ikigai? Have you ever heard of that? No.

No, I haven't.

It's this Japanese term that I'll send you, and I posted the little cartoon of it on my Instagram. But it's basically that thing that you're good at that the world needs that you can get paid for. And I think it's like. Comes easily to you is the fourth one. And it's basically like your purpose has to fit in between all of these things because if you're not good at it, obviously it's not going to go anywhere if the world doesn't need it, if you can't get paid for it, if it doesn't come naturally to you. And it's finding that sweet spot. And I think with blogging, you create it into that sweet spot.

Yeah, definitely. I feel like I have found my purpose just in terms of the connecting with an audience aspect to it and just sort of what my voice is. Granted, it's always changing and always evolving. And I think that's something that I've learned is to never be stagnant and never Accept who you are. I mean, accept who you are right now, but also expect that who you are is going to change. And I think with that, what has really helped me be a part of this world that is ever changing is that I love a good challenge. I love being thrown into the wringer and have to figure out how to do something. And I think that more than anything, just that skill has made me successful in this world, in the blogging world, that is, or in the world in general, who knows? But just that idea that I love being able to learn something new, and because this is such a new industry, you have to be able to keep up, and that's really hard. And not everybody wants to do that, and that's totally fine. But it's things like, you know, four and a half years ago, video was not a thing, podcasting was not a thing. They were just not a part of this industry, and they are now. And I'm so lucky that I love learning how to figure these things out. And my biggest thing is really connection and creativity. And so with those two things, I feel like if it's. If it's a new challenge in this community, then I can definitely keep up and learn how to do it. I love that. And so, I mean, it's hard. It's really hard. You definitely have to have the type of personality that wants to learn how to figure things out, and not only wants to, but know how to. Which I have learned is actually a skill that some people have and some people don't have. So I think before I started the blog, I was in research, and I actually think that has been a huge asset to me and in the blogging world because I know how to, like, dig through information. I know how to find things to answer my questions, whether it be, you know, answering it in a way. I know how to be able to differentiate between useful information and unuseful information. And I think that that's really hard for a lot of people, but it has weirdly become this, like, life skill I cultivated that actually plays into what I do. And I never could have expected that for sure.

And I think, you know, the universe gave you that experience of being a researcher so you could learn those exact tools that you need to now be doing what you're doing.

Yeah, definitely. People are like, how does what you do now relate to what you used to do? And there's very little connection other than, like, I was part of the healthcare system. And then actually, research is a big part of what I do now, especially with the podcast where you're having to research guests and, you know, discover sort of their life story and what might be interesting to other people about that life story.

Totally. And yeah, people don't realize a lot of, like, the behind the scenes stuff. I think a lot of people have like this idealized view of like, oh, like bloggers just, you know, get sent delicious food and take selfies of themselves eating the food and then get paid lots of money for it.

Right.

And it's like, not really. That might have. Might be how the picture looks, but it's definitely not what goes on behind the scenes.

No, I mean, that does happen for some people, but that's not really the community and the tribe that I'm trying to build. There's certainly people who are. I always laugh when I'm referred to as an influencer because I know on a level, I do influence decisions and I definitely don't take that lightly, which is why I try to be socially responsible with everything that I share. But my job in life is not to influence people's decisions. My job in life is to share resources with people that are helpful and valuable. And so I'm thinking about that before I'm sharing something on Instagram, before I'm sharing something on the blog or on the podcast. I'm thinking, is this helpful? Is this valuable to people? Because if it isn't, then the world doesn't need more useless information. They don't need more voices that just confuse people or create sort of this aspirational world that, you know, we have enough of those people doing that. So, I mean, certainly there are people getting sent products and are telling you, go buy these. They're amazing. And I'm sure that they, most of the time mean it. But there are also the people who I think are really stroking their own ego. And maybe that sounds like a little bit harsh, but I've sort of been around since before the social media wave of people have come through. And so I think blogging used to really be like, it used to be a community and you really felt that connection with the audience. And. And I think now we've lost a little bit of that. And so, long story short, yes, there are people kind of playing into that world, but there's also, you know, people who consider themselves really content creators and are trying to create valuable resources for people that help them gain some clarity. Or maybe they're the one person that can communicate a message that is being communicated a lot, but you just happen to connect with that one person. And so I think that is a lot harder than people realize. So for me, I've kind of mastered how to put up a blog post. But there's a lot that goes into it, especially these days when video is such a big thing and the quality of your photography is really important. And is your voice being able to communicate the message that you're trying to communicate? There's so much more to it. It gets even more complicated when you're adding sponsors, which is really how a lot of us have monetized. It's hard to walk that line. And I think that's probably the hardest piece of what I do is how to stay authentic and also be able to make a living. But when you've been doing it for a little while, it starts to get a little bit easier.

Yeah, for sure. And I think people don't realize that if you're a full time blogger, you have to figure out a way to monetize it. And I think a lot of people are like, oh no, she put something that's sponsored. And it's like, well, how else is she gonna be able to give you all of the services free content? And I know you're posting like three times a week, which is just insane. But it's like blog posts take a lot of work. Just putting it together. The pictures, the fonts, the photography is like a whole other process that, you know, just like any other work. If you were to hire someone to do a blog post for you, you'd have to pay them. So I think people need to have like more compassion for bloggers of like, they're pouring their hearts into this. I don't think any bloggers in it for the money because it's not a huge money maker, but they're doing it because they love it and they have to figure out a way to monetize it.

Yeah, I definitely see it from both perspectives where obviously from my perspective, I am putting out a lot of free content. 75% of my content is free content that I'm just creating because I'm hoping it's valuable for other people or I'm trying to communicate a message of some sort. 25%, and this is rough numbers, it's not always exact because there are quieter months and there are busier months, but about 25% is sponsored. So when you take that into account, you it's really not that much. But people can get really stuck on those sponsored posts being like, oh, you're such a sellout, or like, why are you talking about this brand? I'm pretty lucky in that most of my audience has been around for a while and they sort of followed this evolution and they know that when I'm working with a brand, I love them. I definitely don't take it lightly who I'm working with. But there will always be the people who do take it lightly and who are in it for the money. And at the same time, you gotta understand that some people just gotta do what they gotta do because we all have to make a living. So those people kind of make the experience a bit more challenging. But I think when you look at it in the grand scheme of things, it's sort of like, okay, most of what you're doing isn't sponsored, but I don't know, it's challenging. I also see it from the perspective where I'm incredibly privileged to be in a position where people read my blog and want more from me and therefore I'm sort of expected to deliver. But I mean, I love it and so that's why I'm doing it. And I hope that people understand that. But again, like I talked about in that blog post, it's really tricky. It's not as easy as people think.

So I would love for you to talk about more of that journey of what is it? Like, someone starts a food blog, they're posting their stuff on it. How do they go about getting sponsors for it, getting all of the ways that they can monetize it so their blog can become alternative living? Like, what were the first steps that you took?

Yeah, I like talking about this stuff because I feel like I don't get to talk about sort of the behind the scenes side of things, at least not so much anymore. So it's fun to be able to talk about this, but I can kind of rewind to where I was when I first started the blog and obviously didn't have a lot of readers. But eventually, you know, it kind of grew and I was able to build an audience.

How did you grow it? Like through a particular social media platform? I know for me Pinterest was like the biggest thing to grow mine.

Yeah, yeah. So I would say Pinterest is obviously a huge, huge traffic driver when it comes to any form of, like, visual content. And when you're sort of on in the health and wellness space, it depends. Like, for me, it's mostly my recipes that drive a lot of the traffic, because recipes are one of the most searched items on Pinterest. So really, Pinterest was huge and Google as well. So SEO and making sure that you're optimizing your content for SEO. If you don't know what SEO is, it's search engine optimization. And there's a lot of blog posts about that if you want to learn about that, but I'm going to avoid that topic. But really, that is the type of content that starts to get your name out there. It's a lot harder to really build your brand on the other social media platforms, so, like Facebook and Instagram and all of that. Granted, I kind of was able to get in early, so I do still have a presence there, but not. Not really compared to Pinterest or Google. So, yeah, really just starting with social media. And I'm also a huge fan of grassroots marketing. Make sure you kind of shamelessly promote yourself with your friends and your family and ask them to share if they feel like what you're doing is of value and you think would be helpful. And I'm so lucky to have, like a Jewish mother who basically spammed her whole email list when I started, you know, sharing a lot of things. And also just friends telling friends. It can be really, really powerful. I mean, I see it really in sort of my top cities, which are Toronto and New York, which are two cities that I used to live in. And I do have a huge network of people there. And I really think it's because of the physical people on the ground, not just like population size. So really just starting with some grassroots stuff and telling your friends and social media, using social media more as a tool to market your blog, which is really how I see it, because I started my blog before I had any social media platforms. I don't view Instagram as sort of a final destination. It's oftentimes a tool to hopefully encourage people to come through to my blog, which is how I operate. But people are different. I feel pretty strongly that having a blog or having a personal space that you control and isn't dependent on somebody else's algorithm is really important. But that's my perspective. Maybe I'm a little jaded.

I totally agree with that. Because, you know, MySpace was huge, like 10 years ago. And then Facebook, and now if you have a Facebook fan page, you're not getting any engagement on there because you have to, like, pay to promote. And I really think Instagram is on the decline, which is why it's so important to have your. Your own space and grow your email list. Otherwise you'll just lose all those people.

Yeah. And that's what I tell people who are sort of starting out in this space. They're like, yeah, I think I'll just, like, start with Instagram. And I'm like, that's totally fine. But, like, Instagram can change its algorithm. Instagram can change its trends. You know, like, your, like, overhead bowl shots might not be cool or trending a couple years from now. So it's important that you really have your own space where you can connect with your audience, build your email list. And I'm really trying to say this more from the perspective of, like, connection, which is far more important to me than the number of page views that I have. But really, a lot of my engagement is coming from there and less on social media, because I'm not on social media all the time. I mean, I'm lucky to have someone who helps me with social media, but I'm really not sitting on Instagram all day. So for me, I'm focusing on creating content for my blog and really using social media as a tool to promote. And that's just sort of because that's where I was starting. Like, that's. That's what I understand. Maybe one day I'll be like, you know what? I'm over the blog. But I can't see that day coming anytime soon. So I'm really focused on keeping my space as, like, my space as in my blog, really a quality environment and a place where people can come for resources and using my social media to market that. So, yeah, I mean, I find myself in a position where I need to understand digital marketing and I need to understand business and I need to understand sort of the creative side of everything. And that I did not know when I was getting into this world, which I try and warn people when they're like, I really want to do this full time. And I'm like, that's amazing. Like, I would love for this to work out for you, but you have to be prepared to figure out a lot of things. Like, there's a lot that you need to learn. And it's not just the creative side, it's really everything. So I try to warn people, but it is possible because I'm sitting here talking to you about it. So I. Yeah, I mean, I'm not coming from any kind of marketing background, any kind of business background. I studied psych in school, so I love understanding people and the decisions that they make and mental health. Those things are all important and definitely play a role in what I do. But I didn't have any kind of background and certainly not in blogging other than sitting on Food Gawker all day in my Psych 101 class, you know, so I didn't really. I. You don't need a background to do this. You just need the commitment and the willingness to learn along the way.

Yes. I mean, I'm just like, nodding along, agreeing with you, because I have had the exact same journey as you. Like, I started my blog, like, I don't know, six, seven years ago when I was in college. And it was just what I was doing when I was in class. Like, instead of paying attention, I would be like, blogging this. I'm just teaching myself. People are like, how. Just Google things. It's amazing what you can find. What is SEO? How do you do it? How do you optimize your page? How do you make pinnable images for Pinterest? I'm just constantly googling things. And I mean, the thing that sucks when you're trying to grow that following is you're spending a lot of that time that you wish you could be doing the creative stuff, like doing this stuff. But that's how you build the following so you can grow and then eventually allocate your time and hire someone else to do the other stuff.

That's exactly what it is, is really. I feel strongly that you should be able to do all of these things on your own. You should learn how to do them and then understand how much time goes into it, understand how things work, and then give up the pieces you don't actually enjoy doing once you get to that point in your business. So for me, that, I mean, really, that's happened in the last two years. But for the first, like two and a half, almost three years of the blog, I did everything by myself and I loved it. There were parts that I kind of didn't want to do or avoid it like the plague. But you have to learn them, you have to figure them out, and then you can figure out exactly what it is that you want to focus your energy on and what pieces you can give away.

Absolutely. And there's. And there's so many gifts of knowing how to do those things, as you mentioned, like, you know, coding. I think a lot of people are afraid of building a blog because they don't know how to build a website. And now, I mean, it's so much easier than it was seven years ago. But, like, knowing how to do the back end stuff of like, getting into that HTML and like changing something when you want gives you so much freedom that, like, you can, like, change your entire image of your blog without having to depend on a graphic designer and A web designer. So that's why I love tools like WIX and Squarespace and stuff, because it just like puts that power back in your hands.

Totally. And also I was laughing about this the other day because, I mean, I. When I started my blog five years ago, it was so much harder to start a website. I mean, Squarespace wasn't around. WIX wasn't around. I had to figure out WordPress buying.

A template and then customizing the template.

Oh, my God, it was such a nightmare. It was awful. It was so hard. That was the piece that took me so long to start my blog was. I just couldn't figure out how to do it. I was so confused. And then I had to create a wedding website for our wedding and I just went onto Squarespace and I had a website up in like 10 minutes and I was like, this is the easiest thing ever. So it's become so much easier. So for anyone out there who is just getting started on a blog, like, you're not allowed to complain because it was so much harder.

Yeah. And now, like, I had a really nice website that got a web designer and spent all this money on it, and then I made myself a WIX website in a day and I use that website. I like, don't use the other one at all anymore because it's just, it's so clean. I mean, we sound like we're like sponsored by wix, but like, there's just so many amazing tools out there that really. It's so easy to start a blog these days. So how is it, how has it been though, now, now that it's so easy to start a blog and so many people are doing it, how has that been? As a professional blogger, are you seeing that companies are less likely to pay or that there's less views now that there's so many blogs or it hasn't really changed.

Okay. So I'm gonna kind of give you sort of the behind the scenes of like, what people talk about in this world. So I would say as it's become more saturated, page views are not as high as they used to be. So it's definitely become harder to grow. It's much, much harder when you're a new to get that initial round of traffic. The people who have been around for a while and have created a lot of content sort of have a bigger footprint. So you might sort of be at a certain amount of page views and kind of plateau. And I'm really generalizing here. I can't speak for everyone, but sort of with My blogging friends we talk about is sort of feeling like we've been stuck in the same amount of page views for a while, and really the focus has become on social media and growing those numbers. At the same time, it's also sort of. It's become a little less collaborative, which makes me kind of sad. I feel like, you know, in the blogging space, there was a lot more emphasis on collaborating with each other, doing guest posts. And I like it because I get it still a little bit in blogging, but the podcasting world is really collaborative, which I love because I'm not a competitive person. I really like being able to share people who I think are cool, and I love being able to be a part of other people's cool adventures. But I find that social media is a bit more competitive, which I don't love so much. So that's been kind of tough in terms of the sponsored stuff. I mean, I'm lucky I've been around for a while that I've been able to work with a lot of amazing sponsors. A lot of the people I work with, I've been working with for years. We just have a really great rapport. They know I love the brand, my audience is familiar with them. I get to showcase different ways that you can use the product or service. So it's actually really nice to have been around for a little bit longer. It's definitely not as hard to find a match with people. That being said, when I first started, digital marketing is not what it is now, especially not in the influencer space. So it's easier now, I think, because a lot of brands understand that they need to be working with influencers, but they don't necessarily know how accurately or sort of how to pitch bloggers. And it's still a work in progress. And I can have my days where I'm so frustrated that someone is trying to get me to work for free applesauce. But it's getting better. It really is getting better. And I think that more people adding to the space, adding to the conversation, educating each other is actually a really positive thing. But in terms of sort of the page view side of things, because it has become so saturated and there's only so many versions of healthy chocolate chip cookies that you can make before you end up on the. The 50th page on Google. Yeah, it's become a bit more challenging to grow.

Totally. And yeah, and I think a lot of people, they're wondering, well, how did you even get those sponsored. Those sponsored companies and stuff at First, I know that was my biggest question. I was like, do I like go to send the corporation like an email? Like, hey, Cheerios. Like do you want to sponsor me? So how did you begin? Did you approach them? Did they approach you? What was that conversation like?

Yeah, so at first I was definitely reaching out to sponsors. It wasn't like I one day opened my inbox and I had a bunch of emails from people wanting to work together, but I really focused on working with more local brands. So at the time I was in Toronto. So getting to work in that space where I really had strong numbers on sort of the more focused local community, that was a really great place to sort of start building my portfolio and, and getting the experience of sort of what it means to work professionally in this space. Because I think like we said, it can seem as easy as someone sends you something in the mail and you talk about it. But I mean, I talked about this in this blog post that I wrote. There's so much more to it now. Now I have an operations manager who fields the emails and then we send my sponsorship guide and then we negotiate and then we sign a contract and then I create a draft and then they approve the draft and there's so much more that goes into it. And I think if I had been thrown into that world off the bat, I would have been totally freaked out and not known how to handle it. So I would say starting with some more sort of local brands, even if at first you're doing it for free product because maybe you don't have huge numbers or you really want to improve your photography and you just want to get that relationship going with brands you love, then I think that's great and you start from there. And maybe with those brands you show how valuable you are. You're creating content that they're able to share on their social media, or maybe you're giving them rights to photos they can use on their website and stuff like that, where you figure out creative ways to work together, where it's maybe not necessarily a sponsored blog post because you don't have huge numbers there yet, but you are finding ways that you can work together. So I always tell people, get creative, figure out what your value is. And it's not always in what your numbers are. It could be that you're fantastic photographer or maybe you just know a lot of the right people so you can help consult on an influencer campaign. There are so many different ways. You just really have to think outside the box. And from there you start to build Relationships and you start to build your portfolio and then you maybe start pitching some bigger brands that have bigger budgets and then some start reaching out to you. So it takes a really long time. I mean it's taken me five years to be sitting here and feel comfortable and feel. And even still I have no idea how much money I'm going to make next month. And that's kind of scary. I mean, I do have some long term commitments with brands, which is great and adds a little peace of mind. But at the same time it is a huge risk and I still have to live with that risk. So it takes a really long time to get to a place where you're comfortable and I don't know that you necessarily ever reach that destination for sure.

And again, since it's, it's so, it's so moving that, you know, a lot of brands now I've just seen that I've worked with in the past are like, well now we're not having our affiliate program or we're just doing affiliate things instead of having paid sponsors. And I mean it's like really hard because on the bloggers it's like, do you expect them to be like, hey, like buy this but use my code when you're going to buy it? It like makes you into their little like salesperson which no one wants to be. So it's definitely changing.

Yeah.

But yeah, I never recommend to people like, I hear people like, oh, so should I become like an affil for them? I'm like, honestly, it's going to, you're going to have to have a lot of people to buy that product to make any kind of real income from that.

That's what I tell people. And I really think it's important that we all be working together. I don't necessarily think we need to be, you know, shouting our rates from the rooftop. You have to find a number that you feel is really encapsulates what's worth your time and energy and experience and, and your lifestyle. All of those things figure out, you know, how much you should be charging. But we do need to be on the same page in terms of what we're willing to work for and what we're not willing to work for. And while I'm definitely in support of people who are just getting started working on an in kind product basis, really once you get to a certain point and once you decide that you're going to be operating like a business, you have to operate like a business and you really have to say no to a Lot of things. And I mean, I'm saying no to over 10 emails every single day from products that they want to send me their free corn chips so that I can talk about them. And they're always giving me content that I should be talking about on my blog. And I'm like, there's no value here for my readers, and you don't have a budget, so there's really no relationship here. And they're like, oh, well, we want to keep things authentic. And I'm like, I can be authentic. And I'm being authentic right now by saying no. So it drives me a little bit crazy. And I think it's important that we all be on the same page. So make a community of bloggers or reach out to people and just be like, hey, can I just, like, run this idea by you? Should I say yes? Should I say no? What's your advice? As long as we're being collaborative, I actually think we can all be really successful. But the more we sort of undermine each other by taking opportunities that aren't the right fit or that are really, you know, just creating an environment where no one's really benefiting, then none of us are really going to be successful.

Yes. And I think this conversation is just so important to have because blogging is something that we all do by ourselves. It's not like we're, like, at this, like, conference, and we can, like, talk to everyone, see what they're doing. It's super lonely, and you don't know what anyone else is doing, if they're even charging rates. And then that's what makes it like, some people who might have tons of followers might not even know that they could have a sponsor or something like that. And then it kind of, you know, I know a lot of bloggers talk about it sucks when you're trying to make your living from it. And then someone else maybe who has a bigger experience audience than you, is doing it for free, then that company's like, well, so and so did it for free, so why should I pay you?

Exactly, exactly.

It just makes it hard for everyone.

Yeah, totally.

So. Well, that's amazing. And I know you were just at the Expo east, and I definitely recommend for people to go to Expo west or Expo East. Did you enjoy going there this year?

I did, yeah. It was definitely a very, like, stimulating experience. I feel like I living out in San Francisco, everything is, like, pretty relaxed and just like being in a place where you're constantly having to market yourself in person, and then everywhere you look, there's a new type of brand doing this cool, amazing, innovative thing. So it's a very stimulating experience, but it's really cool to see some of the products that are coming out. And I'm just so excited for people who maybe have a specific dietary restriction or can't eat this that they now have just different types of products that they can integrate into their life. So from that perspective, I think it's really amazing. At the same time, I'm just seeing how much, like, wellness has sort of become this industry that I don't necessarily want it to turn into. In many ways, it's sort of emulating the diet industry, where people aren't necessarily in it to add some value to the space, but instead just to make a quick buck. And I see a lot of that where there's just like a lot of brands making the exact same product, just hoping to be the unicorn who really makes it. So I hope that we can all sort of see through what's happening and be able to differentiate the brands who are making really good products for good reasons from those who are just in it for the money. And I think we're all smart enough to kind of figure that out. But it was a lot of wow, like, how many versions of this can we put out?

Oh, for sure. So for people who don't know what Expo west and Expo east is the natural product Expo, and I recommend Googling it. If you are a blogger, I think you can get just a free ticket to go if you submit on their website. Are they still doing that?

Yeah. So I think that there's like a threshold, but you can always email them and let them know, sort of, you know, maybe you're bigger on this platform or something like that. So I think they're kind of trying to curate a bit more from the blogger side, but I would still reach out. But more than anything, I would say it's a fantastic opportunity to meet other bloggers, which is really my favorite part. I got to meet so many bloggers who I loved and admired, and also readers who also have blogs, getting to connect with them, because that's really what I love most. And I came home just feeling like, so full from being able to spend that quality time with people. I think it's just. It's awesome. And even if you're not walking the showroom floor, if you're just going out to get a coffee, it's a nice place where you can just like, meet up and then go do your thing and chat with each other. So I would Say if for any reason, go for that. Because meeting other bloggers is like the best, for sure.

And yeah, it's so amazing. Also, like, meeting the companies. I feel like if you are someone that wants to be a blogger, you're going to kind of put your face behind that blog. If you meet up with that company in person. And they're way more likely to, like, want to sponsor you or work with you or, you know, whatever it is if they've met you in person.

Yeah, I mean, I think FaceTime is always super important. And also like getting comfortable with selling yourself, which is a super uncomfortable thing to do. And it's taken me a really long time to be able to do that. But having to do it over and over and just be like, this is what I do and this is why it's valuable. That is a really good skill to work on. It's just really hard. It's really, really hard. And by the end of the day, I was like, I need a bath, I need to chill. It sucks at times, but I think we all need to sort of hone in on that skill. Especially if you're really in the marketing space, which a lot of us, you know, kind of walk the line of.

So how do you deal with the rejection that comes along with it? You know, if you're pitching yourself to so many people, chances are at least 50% are no's just like in anything in life. So how do you deal with that?

I mean, you get used to it. I got like, you know, walking around, I got every kind of reaction. And it really is reflective of what happens, like outside of showroom floor. But just people like not seeing the value, not really understanding what it is that you do. Kind of handing you product and being like, you can talk about this and just sometimes you just gotta bite your tongue and just keep moving and know that it's worth it. Cause when you find the right fit, you find the right fit. Yeah, I mean, it's hard. I don't wanna, like sugarcoat it. It always sucks to wanna work with someone and not feel like they really see your value or why you should be working together. But it just gets easier. And then when you get the experience of working with the people you wanna be working with, and you know they wanna be working with you, that is so rewarding that you really quickly forget about all the no's that you get. But it definitely, you get tough skin. But I would say more than anything, it's hearing from readers who don't like something or disagree with You. That's the stuff that can be hardest, more than hearing it from the brand side.

Yes. And I know a lot of people that I've spoken to, they said the thing that's keeping me from having a blog, from putting my voice out there, is I'm afraid of the negative feedback I'm gonna get. So. And we all get it. So how do you deal with that? Negative reviews, bad emails, and, like, do you have any sort of practice that you do around that?

You know, I'm really lucky that a lot of the stuff that I get is not super personal. It's just opinions on something. You know, it might be, like, a recipe, and they just didn't like it. So I don't have advice from sort of the personal side, because I haven't felt. That's not true. I've had moments of feeling personally attacked where people say things that are just really out of line. But you just have to remember that it's just a person who probably is feeling really insecure and that you are a mirror for their own insecurities and that they're really just projecting it onto you. So I try to remember that and always, you know, kill them with kindness. I think you'd be surprised how people react when you really are just, like, a good person in return. Most of the time I'm like, delete. If it's some form of harassment or just super aggressive, I don't think the Internet needs more of that. But if I feel like we could have some kind of positive dialogue, then I just return it in a way that is super positive and hope that they can understand that. And sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. It is what it is. But really, I find it funny. Some of my most popular recipes, I have half the people being like, I love this. It's amazing. Thank you so much. And half the people being like, I hated this. I threw it out. And it's just so. It's so obvious of just how different we are and how different our tastes are, and that's a good thing. And that I'm gonna be the right person for some people and I'm not gonna be the right person for other people, and that's totally fine.

Mm, totally. And. And I think it's like, we're walking this interesting line as a personal brand because you're a person as well as you are a brand. And I think, you know, because we live in the US and even in Canada, you're able to call up a brand and be like, I'm so unhappy with you. You're not doing this, you're not doing that. And, like, customer service is number one. But, like, when you're emailing a person saying that, like, they don't realize it's just you. There's. There's no one else. And, like, it hurts.

Yeah, totally. And I think people, like, also think that maybe I don't read things, but I'm very involved in everything, and I like reading. I like getting feedback. I've gotten a lot of really positive feedback, but also good positive criticism that I've been able to sort of help make me a better person and a better brand. So I'm all about reading the things that people have to say because it's important to me to have that dialogue. But. But, yeah, I mean, I think sometimes people forget in sort of their delivery that it is just a person on the other side. But, you know, like I said, you're oftentimes just a mirror for their own insecurities.

For sure. Yeah. I was. I saw, like, an Instagram story recently of someone who. She was saying, if you don't have anything nice to say, any positive feedback, I just don't want to hear it. And she's like, I'm just a person. I have a whole life. I'm giving you guys all this free content, and I don't want to hear your negative stuff. And then a lot of her audience was like, how can you say that? That's so, like, tyrannical. Like, how can we not give our feedback? And she said, you don't get it. I'm not a company. I'm a person. Would you walk up to your friend and start saying all this negative feedback? Like, her. Her view of it is, like, I'm just here showing up, like, I don't owe anyone a certain kind of experience. And I. I understood both perspectives.

Yeah, I mean, I totally get that from being, you know, the person on the other side. I know how hard it can be when someone says something that's really negative, But I also think that a lot of positive can come out of negative situations. So I'm not someone who would really reject it outright because I feel like I've been able to engage and meet people with different perspectives. I think what the world needs more of is conversation, not less of it. So we. Yeah, I'm all for, like, keeping. Keeping things open and being able to talk about things, but I. I also don't get a lot of really terrible negative feedback. So I think I might feel differently if I was hearing from People who had a lot to say about me.

So how did you start creating your kind of, like, group of blogger friends? Like, how did that work? Did you reach out to each other? Because I know a lot of people who want to do this. They wish they had other blogger friends. They don't really know. What's the first step to take?

Yeah, I mean, it always seems super stalkerish for the first time. I think social media has made it a little bit easier because it is less weird to, like, comment on somebody's photo on Instagram than it was to sign in and leave a comment on somebody's blog. So it's made it a lot easier. It's really just engaging in a real authentic way with people who you feel like you connect with. And if they feel like they connect with you, then they will. And that really was the same thing that was happening in the blogging world a couple of years ago, before Instagram became what it is was we would just comment on each other's blogs and really the people who we connected with. So, like, one of my closest friends I met through her blog, and we laughed because you can go back years and I'm there leaving comments on things even before I started my own blog. So I knew that I felt like I had a connection with her. And then we did, and we've met in person. We've actually gone on a bunch of trips around the world together. So it's kind of cool to be able to build those kinds of friendships. Obviously, there's going to be situations where people are connecting with you or you're connecting with people, and they don't necessarily feel that same sense of connection. Or maybe they're not looking to make friends on the Internet, and that's totally fine, but you just move on. You can't harp on that too much. But really just the people who are most similar to you are probably the people who you should be connecting with most, because most people don't max out on the number of blogs that they read or the number of Instagram accounts that they follow. So both from a professional standpoint, really being friends with and having a close network with the people who are most similar to you is actually a really great business move. But. But it's also just a really positive thing, personally, to feel like you have that connection and people who can keep you accountable and help answer your questions and just be a really good, supportive network. So many of my blogging friends are people I've met years ago and are still in my life and are gonna Be at my wedding. Like, they're just some of my closest friends. So I'm really grateful, and I would advocate for anybody to work on building that network.

Totally. I think it's just making the first move, which is just always a little bit uncomfortable. But I think now people are more collaborative than ever. I remember when I started, like, Instagram, I would, like, send so many people dms, like, hey, I just love your page. Like, that's it. And then, like, you know, I don't know. I probably sent thousands of those by now, but a lot of them now are my actual friends. So you just have to throw out your darts out. Darts out there. And, like, if someone, like you said, is someone that you really resonate with, like, keep showing up.

Yeah, totally. And I think making sure that you do it in an authentic. In an authentic way is most important. You know, you can throw spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks. But I would say, like, really try and connect with the people who you actually feel like you have a connection with, because those people will become some of the most important people in your life, for sure.

And I think, you know, also, like, if you're starting a blog and maybe connecting with other people or starting a blog, whereas, like, just going for, like, the person who has the most number of followers, probably a lot of people are sending the messages. So it's, like, good to find people who are, like, on the same path as you, so you can, like, build it together.

Totally. Yeah. I couldn't agree more.

Well, that's so amazing. And. And you also. I just want to mention our dogs are, like, twins, by the way. You have, like.

I know.

A bigger version of my dog.

I know Bode looks like he ate, like, four doodles because he's just so big.

So cute. So for people listening right now who are interested in kind of the food aspect of it and are like, they're not. I know you're not a health coach, but you're a blogger. And I think a lot of people, they feel like they have to become health coaches in order to talk about food. And I love how you're like, no, I'm here to just share, so can you, like, talk a little bit? Was that ever a decision for you? Like, thinking about becoming a health coach versus being a food blogger and, like, how of distinguishing that?

Yeah, I mean, I definitely had moments where I was like, I feel like I should go back to school and maybe become an expert in something. But I really feel like not being an expert is a big part of what The Healthy Maven is all about. I don't tell anybody how to live their life. I feel like we have so many people who are telling you how you're supposed to be eating, how you're supposed to be dressing, how you're supposed to be moving. I just think that especially in the wellness space, because people are looking for so many answers, I just want to be a voice that reminds them that sometimes you have to tune inwards and figure out what that answer is for yourself, that it's all about experimentation and trying out things and don't rule anything out until you've tried it. But also just knowing intuitively that not everything is going to work for you and not everything that works for you is going to work for somebody else. And that has been a huge asset to my business, but also just really fits with who I am. I like being able to share things, but I don't like telling people what to do.

Mm. And that's just such a good point that, you know, we don't have to be experts in anything. You don't have to have, like, a degree in nutrition to, like, talk about, like, what makes you feel good. Like, we all have a voice, we all have an experience, and we all have the right to share it.

Exactly. Yeah. I think that that is something that I try and remind people a lot that, like, a, we're probably marginally smarter about something than we are, than somebody else is, which inherently makes you an expert, but also that we all have the ability to use our voices, and as long as we're using it for good, then by all means, share it with the world.

Totally. And you're already ready. I mean, if you're listening to this, you already have a passion for wellness or for blogging, and if anything is stopping you, it's only yourself. So go out there and do it. So thank you so much for sharing all of this wonderful advice. And where can listeners connect with you?

Yeah, so you can find me pretty much everywhere on the web and all across social media. It's just the healthy maven or thehealthymaven.com and I also have a podcast that's called that's so Maven, where I interview mavens and shakers. So Sahara was actually on the show or is coming on the show, depending on when you're listening to this. And it's awesome. I get to chat with really cool people in the wellness space and really help kind of blow the lid off the definition of health so that we can really see that there's no one size fits all. So would love to have you there if you're looking for more wellness inspiration.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much and I'll have all of those links in the show notes.

Thank you so much for having me. This is so fun.

Of course. Thank you for I'm sure tons of people are like taking notes right now and feeling really, really inspired because I think a lot of it is we, we don't have these conversations, especially about blogging. So thank you for like being the courageous one to be like, yeah, this is what goes on about sponsored posts and behind the scenes and tracking engagement and it's going to inspire and or also for a lot of people who don't want to do that being like, oh, wow, that's, that's not for me. So thank you for putting it out there.

Of course. I'm always happy to be this person.

Yay. Well, have a beautiful day.

Thank you so much.

Namaste.