613: Redefining Marriage as a Spiritual Woman with Sarah Jenks

I always say it's like 1950s inside of a lot of marriages. We gotta update what's happening. So it's a container for us to be the fullest expression of who we are. So I would say you can't look outside yourself. You actually have to close your eyes and go into a ceremony or go into a deep meditation and ask your soul, what do I need? Or, like, soul, what do you need in your committed relationship to be the fullest expression of who you are? What's gonna be the initiation? What's to be the nurturing? What's going to be the, like, fire that helps you awaken in this lifetime?

Welcome back to the Highest Self podcast. My name is Sahara Rose, and on this podcast, I love to take spirituality and make it really fun, grounded, relatable, especially for me, matters of the heart. So spirituality for me is not about leaving your body and ascending and reaching your Pleiadian star fam. Even though that sounds fun, because Earth can be really ghetto sometimes, but it's actually about being here, because this Earth is actually kind of beautiful. And, you know, we get to feel all the feelings, even though sometimes I'm crying to Toni Braxton, and other times I'm laughing, shaking my ass for my ancestors. And it's the full spectrum in between. And, you know, I've been doing this podcast for over seven years now. I've been in my spiritual journey, like, kind of my whole life. But the biggest thing that, like, got me into the heart, into the feeling, into the full spectrum, like, purpose of my existence was my divorce. And if you've ever gone through a heartbreak, you know how much that brings you to your knees and causes you to just, like, question everything in your life. It's like this before and after, like, BC ad, like, reset, you know, and you're just like, I physically look so different. Guys. If you guys, like, look at my podcast from 2022 to now, you can say your girls had a glow up. But I physically, like, shape shifted because my consciousness shape shifted. And it wasn't just the divorce. It was actually all the healing that I did after, because I made healing my priority. And I was like, okay, I'm in it. I'm awake within the dre. Because I know that everything's happening for me for a higher reason and that all of the muck will turn into the fertile soil that my lotus blossoms. Like, I know it. I've been through dark nights of the soul before. This one's the gnarliest. But I know this is going to make me into my dream girl, even though I don't even know who that is right now. So that really brought me on a journey of understanding relationships from my parents, relationships and what I grew up seeing from my culture, growing up in Persian culture, where all of my relatives have been enforced child marriages, and looking at just all of the systems of patriarchy and codependency and attraction to more narcissistic men and all of the things in my lineage and doing really deep healing work of what is true for me. And I would say right after my divorce, I was like, I will never get married again. No freaking way am I doing this. Because the truth is, I never want to have to go through a divorce again. Now, a year and a half later, I see just the beauty of marriage and the natural beauty of, especially as a woman, it's so hard to really open your heart to someone that you're like, oh, this is just for right now, you know, it's like we have such an endless pool of love within us that it feels infinite. In fact, sometimes it feels so overwhelming that the beauty of marriage and whether we want to actually legally get married or not. I don't think I would personally legally get married again, but I still would desire, obviously wedding, but a commitment, you know, a true commitment of partnership for however long that works, but with the intention of we want to be in this for life and. And we are open to the unknown. So you have really been with me on this journey, on this podcast through this experience of really speaking about heartbreak and self healing and celibacy and relationships. And now I'm opening my mind back up to if or when I get married again, what would that marriage now look like? Because I definitely before was just operating from what I saw family, society, TV shows of like, oh, you get married till death do you part. Like, duh. And it's like, wait, that didn't happen. Like what? So I'm really excited to bring on Sarah Jenks. She is a priestess and she is someone who has been successfully married since she was with her partner since college. They've gone through many, many seasons and many, many shifts and iterations. And what's really inspiring is they didn't like, start off as this, like, conscious couple that like, you know, met at an ayahuasca ceremony. But it. They started off like a normal couple and like many of you, they weren't having these kinds of conversations and they had more of the traditional marriage model, but they were able to grow and up level and redefine what marriage meant for them. So I'm really excited to have her here on the podcast. And before we drop into this episode, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're listening to this podcast. That is the best way to stay up to date on the latest episodes. We've got this in video format, so if you're just hearing my voice, be sure to to also watch our fabulous outfits on video as well on Spotify, YouTube or the Apple Store. This is the best way to stay in the flow with future conversations and also allows the podcast to reach more people. So hit subscribe so I can keep vibing with you on all future episodes. Now let's get into this one. So without further ado, let's welcome Sarah onto the podcast.

Thanks, Sahara. That was such a beautiful intro. Thank you for. I'm sorry. Grateful that you are going through this journey out loud because it is so deeply helpful for so many women. I just really feel it. So thank you.

Yeah, like, at first I was like, oh, I never want to talk about it because it's so hard. And I'm like, it's impossible for me not to. And now I see so many women who, you know, I'm assuming a lot of women that are listening to this or men are on their second marriages, you know, And I think that I actually hope that I'm with someone who's divorced because it has taught me more about love and the importance of love and the importance of really prioritizing and even having the conversation of what does marriage actually look like to you? That often we don't even get to that point until the relationship dissolves or is on the brink of dissolving. So if you can share some of your journey and your relationship with the listeners.

Yeah. So Jonathan and I met when we were 21 years old and he was a college football player and I was a party girl. So we were very different than we are now. And the one thing that I will say about what happened when we met was it was very clear that we were soulmates. There were so many coincidences. There was such deep love. There was incredible attraction. And we also wanted the same things, which I think is really important because I believe that we have a lot of soulmates in this lifetime, and not all of those soulmates are going to be good life partners and someone to hold a home with and someone to have children with. That's something that people want. And so we got lucky that we were soulmates and we wanted the same things. And when we were dating, we lived in New York for a While we had the best time, and it was just easy, and it really was very straightforward until we had children, I think, because we were able to live independently of each other and follow our own dreams. And there wasn't a lot of. There wasn't a whole lot to be stressed about. And then all of a sudden, out of the blue, I got pregnant during the. Not the most convenient time. We'd been married for a couple years. We were always planning on having kids, but Jonathan was in the middle of his surgical residency. And I noticed that all of a sudden, even though I'm a highly educated feminist, I found myself, like, cooking dinner before I came home and making sure the house was clean and wanting the baby to be quiet and turning into this, like, 1950s housewife. And I was so surprised that this was happening to me. And at the same time, I was starting to go to sacred feminine ceremonies. And really what I kept hearing was, sarah, you aren't who you think you are. Because I had a successful emotional eating course at the time. You know, I grew up right near where you did in a very, like, traditional small town outside of Boston. And I was freaking out that I was hearing these voices that I was actually meant to teach about spirituality and move into this whole new world. So I'm growing rapidly and doing a lot of deep inner work, and Jonathan is not. And then at the same time, I'm understanding my own internalized patriarchy about the traditional gender roles that I fell into. And we just had a recipe for disaster because now I'm not doing all the things that he had grown accustomed to. And I'm saying to him, we don't speak the same language anymore. I need you to grow. I need you to read a book. I need you to not be such an asshole. Because Jonathan was also edgy. And he had this whole belief that he could sort of treat me however he wanted. So it really was hard. And I kept asking and asking and asking and asking, and he was just like, sure or no or maybe, but never actually started the work until I finally had to get comfortable with leaving.

Why is it that men only change when you're literally not joking, you're actually ready to leave? They have to get to that point.

You know, Jonathan and I have the most amazing marriage now. Because what happened in that moment was I said to him, and I had to get clear with myself, because I was. You know, I had at that time, when I finally got clear, I had two kids under two, but I was the primary breadwinner, and I had my Together. So I was really asking myself the question, like, why be married? Like, why am I in this marriage if my partner is not growing with me and he stresses me out and he's edgy, and I feel like I'm walking on eggshells around him, and I don't need him for money, and I've had two kids. Why am I married? And so I asked myself that question, and I answered it in the place of, like, I want a partner who's going to challenge me, who's going to support my dreams, who's going to dream with me, who's going to be on a sacred path with me, who's going to, like, meet me in true sacred union. And that's what I wanted. And what was hard was that I didn't know I wanted that when I was 21. I didn't know I wanted that when I was 26. When we got married, I didn't even know that before we had kids. So I basically had to come to him and say, hey, I have an update. And I know that this maybe wasn't your plan, but here I am. This is what I want now. And this is the job description for being my life partner. Do you want it?

What was the job description?

The job description was, you know, are you willing to grow with me and do the deep healing work and have the deepest spiritual practice so that we can have an experience of God together in our relationship and our sex and how we parent? And are you going to be the type of person who is committed to your own fullest expression? Because, like, that's who I want to be with. I want to be with someone who's on a soul path, not on a should path. And it was really scary for me to get clear about that because I didn't know if that's actually what he wanted, because it's not what everybody wants. It's just a flavor of marriage. And I presented that to him, and he said, yeah, I want that. Actually, that's exactly what I want.

Was he spiritual before?

Yeah, he was. And the thing that was tough with Jonathan is that, you know, residency, a surgical residency, is really traumatic. And a lot of his most beautiful parts got trained out of him. And so when he was younger, when he was a young adult, he felt very connected to God, and it went away. He's Jewish, and so a lot of his connection to God was through going to synagogue and through the Jewish practices, which is so beautiful. And I'm a priestess of the sacred feminine, so I wanted also someone to Join me in the work that I was doing. And not to lead with me, but just to be in it, because it's. I mean, you know, it's just like the best. And so he was all in for that. But I had to know that I was going to be okay if he.

Said, did you bring him along on your journey for him to even. Because I feel like a lot of men, if you're like, hey, I'm here to, you know, be a priestess for the sacred feminine, and this is my path, and I'm looking for sacred union. You're in or out? I think a lot of men would be like, I'm out then. Or. Or you've changed, or I don't understand what you're talking about. So I'm curious, what made him, like, what were the steps before that made him be a yes to this?

Yeah, so I just really practiced revealing along the way and being honest about what I was doing and who I am becoming and the work that I was doing even if he didn't get it. And the thing that I had to really continue to do were to watch for the ways that he would try to sort of like, pierce my balloon so that I would stay on his level. And I had to be really awake to all of those little patterns of trying to keep me down so that I would be a match for him. And it was all unconscious. And we've worked through all of it in, like, years of therapy and ceremony and all the things. But I think the revealing along the way was really super important. And also having to lean into the fact that I had a deep knowing that we were meant to be together. And if we were meant to be together, I knew we were meant to grow together.

So you would show him along the way, how would you combat. I feel like a lot of men, they're very facts and data driven. So if you say something like, oh, well, it was a libra eclipse, so that's why you might be feeling strange, because your libras in Venus, they're like, okay, kind of eye roll, right? Like, how did he start actually, like, believing?

I feel like when our partners are dismissive, it's usually because they're mirroring where we are dismissive inside of us. And when I started on my spiritual path, of course, I had all this internalized patriarchy around that the sacred feminine is weird and that astrology doesn't work and all this stuff. And so if he was ever dismissive, what I would just say is, you know, I'm not dismissive. Of the things that you do. So I would more call him out on the pattern as opposed to trying to. Trying to prove. And I would just invite him to be curious. And he didn't need to, like, for an example, believe in astrology in order to be married to me. However, what he did need to do was be on his own soul path and be happy and also commit to having a relationship. That's great because so many people in marriage just settle for a relationship that's fine. And that's the status quo. That's the culture of marriage. And I just said, I actually don't want fine. I want epic. I want beautiful. I want a sacred, incredible marriage. And I can't do that by myself. You have to also want that with me. And when we settled on both wanting that, it actually gave us permission to have different spiritual paths and to have different ideas and different opinions, but a deep mutual respect where we didn't have to be right anymore. And we're two Libras, so we really liked being right. But when we just got into the practice, like, wow, that's so interesting. Like, tell me more. And as opposed to just like challenging every little thing and using it as a threat that one of us is going to outgrow the other person. When the rule is growth, then there's just so much more space to be curious about the other person and let them be who they are.

Yeah. And I feel like often what happens in relationships is because as the feminine, we are naturally more open, we're more intuitive, we're more connected to the unseen. So it just comes a lot more naturally to us. So what I often find in the relationships is we start the spiritual journey before. And then the first step is he sees she's changing. And I don't like it.

Right?

Because I don't know where it's going to go. I can't control, and she might leave me, you know. So I feel like that's subconsciously where a lot of the dismissive behavior comes from.

And also that's what's been happening across cultures for thousands of years, is the number one tool of the oppressive patriarchy was to erase the sacred feminine. And because it is the sacred feminine that makes women uncontrollable, that makes us come alive, that makes us go first, that makes us create these amazing things, like, we are untamable. And for a lot of us, we presented as women who can be controlled when we were younger and when we come into who we are, that's a really big shift. So not Only is it uncomfortable in the marriage, but it's like upsetting the balance in society in a lot of ways. And so when we do that, what it's requiring is for a partner to really widen their container, to be in really deep trust and to create a new marriage that isn't based on staying the same or controlling somebody or even knowing what's going to happen. It's about creating a relationship around, who are you becoming now? Who are you now? Who are you now? And being interesting to each other and knowing that your connection is based on love and celebration. Like, now. Jonathan is the first person I go to when I discover something new about myself. And he's just like, wow, that is amazing that you are now this person or that person. And we're constantly reintroducing ourselves to the other person because we have a culture in our marriage now that we're supposed to grow.

So for a lot of women listening right now, they may. I think the next step is, like, where would I even point my husband to go? Yeah, you know, it's hard to know. Like, do I send him to, like, a Tony Robbins thing? Like, who are the right teach? Like, how. Like, let's say he's like, okay, I'm. I'm open to it. It's like, what links do you send? You know, really great question. Yeah.

Well, so my husband does have a program, so I will shamelessly pitch him, because he's like a man whisperer. And he went through this. Like, he knows what it was like to be resistant to growth for himself and my own. And what's amazing is that I get DMS from women almost every day saying, my husband is in Jonathan's program and he is a completely different person. And to me, that is the best testimonial to receive. And the best way to do that is if you DM me the word partner on Instagram. I'm Sarah Jenks on Instagram. I'm going to send everybody a guide that's how to get your partner to do inner work. And so there's great links in there, and Jonathan's information is in there. And then we also have a marriage program called Modern Marriage, which is all about how do you come out of antiquated gender roles and get into a more sacred marriage for these times? Because marriage used to be about owning women. And a lot of the unspoken rules of marriage are still from those agreements, and we haven't consciously updated them. And just like you were saying in the beginning, we just take on stuff from our parents who just Took it off from their grandparents. And we haven't, like, sorted through all the unspoken agreements. And so in this program, we just get everything spoken and put out there. So there's just like, no weird assumptions and patterns that are still, like, seeping.

In between the cracks in every marriage. And often it's like at the seven year cycle, though not always that there is a death of that former marriage. And it may be actually parting ways, or it may be a death of the old way of relating and into a new one of being like, yeah, we did these vows that were kind of based on our culture and conditioning that we, like, didn't really mean. It's like, I'm gonna love you no matter what. It's like. And our sorority, we were, you know, and it's like, totally, you know, we're speaking these vows out in front of everyone. We don't recognize the power of them. So how can we redefine the vows? But the other question as well is, like, how do we know when to walk away? Yeah, maybe let's start there. Because with this question that you posed to him of, like, I'm on this growth path. Are you with me? What if he's like, like, that's not my thing. I love you, but that's not my thing.

Yeah.

Is that a grounds to walk away? Because now me being single, I see the other side of often these women looking for this spiritual, grounded, successful, all the things, man, who sure does exist. But even those men have their own shadows and things. So I see sometimes we're like, waiting for this, like, you know, Aquaman to show up. And that doesn't exist either. But I think what's hard is, like, when to know if there's enough in this relationship that it's, like, salvageable and can actually become the dream versus, like, this isn't serving me. He's not on a growth path. I'm going to find someone else who is. Yes.

When I started this process, I thought that Jonathan himself needed to be a certain way in order for me to want to stay married to him, but that I didn't actually know better than he did or than the goddess did.

So.

And it created a lot of pain because he was then caught in not following his own path, but in following mine. And that created resentment. And it also didn't make him feel fulfilled because as long as he's just trying to be who I think he should be, it's still the same shit. So where we landed in the place that actually made sense was we were both Committed to having a great relationship. And I think that is the thing to say to a partner that's a very black and white. If you're just cool with fine and I want great, there's really no way forward. And when Jonathan and I both committed to we want a great relationship, and we knew that in order to have a great relationship, we both needed to be the fullest expression of who we are. And I then had to trust Jonathan to go figure that out for himself. So I think that's the line. But also, you can still stay if you want a great relationship and your partner says, I really just want to find one, you can stay in a fine relationship, but you have to believe them that it's just always going to be fine. And if it's not going to be great, then, you know, it's. It's just your choice. So I think that's the piece. And then I also believe I work with a lot of women, I think, because this was my path, where their partner is edgy and they feel like they're walking on eggshells with them. There's, like, a really big difference between have being in constant fight or flight and being bored. So I would say if you're constantly in fight or flight with your partner, it is not worth it. If you're just bored, like, it's your choice. But there's no need to be with someone who's aggressive, who's edgy, who doesn't make you feel safe in your own home. It's. It's really gonna impact your health and impact your success and impact your children and impact the type of mother you are. It's just not worth it.

Yeah. It's just such a nuanced question that everyone really has to sit with. And, you know, for me, growing up Persian, it's like divorce is, like, off the table. It's like something you never do unless there's the triple A's, the abuse, addiction, and adultery. So in my situation, it's almost like I would have never left the marriage had it not been for one of those things, you know? Now looking back on it, I'm like, okay. We lived very separate lives. Different friends, different visions for what we wanted in our lives. Like, we didn't prioritize spending time together. It had turned way more into a roommate relationship than like, true, like, devoted and husband and wife and partnership. And we allowed each other a lot of freedom, but there was almost more freedom than connection. Yeah, it was like, you can do your thing and I'll do mine. And, like, see you next week. I'll walk by you in the hallway sometime, you know, like, and so I feel like that the betrayal allowed me to, like, actually look at these things that I wouldn't have looked at before, and now I'm so much more aware. And so that being said, I also hear people like, oh, yeah, it's just kind of stagnant with my husband, and I'm just kind of wondering what else is out there. And I'm like, girl, the streets aren't easy. Like, you know, don't. Don't leave just because you're hard, you know?

I agree.

Yeah.

And, like, get in there. Be honest, you know, Fight for what you want. You know, it took me, Jonathan, years to get from, like, you know, and I would do the thing where I just sort of be like, washing the dishes and like, hey, like, will you read this book? I'll just, like, slide her, like, will you put this podcast in your ear? I was being sort of subtle about it. And I think one piece of advice that's super important is, like, be honest so that they're not surprised when you're like, I'm. This sucks. Like, I'm out. And I'm so glad that I was so brutally honest. And it's hard because we have this internalized patriarchy where we don't want to make men upset. So if you're with man, you don't want, like, we don't want to hurt his feelings because we feel like we're going to die, and it feels like we're going to be in danger. And leaving a marriage feels like we're going to be in danger. And I just need everyone to understand that. From an epigenetics perspective, it makes sense that one would feel like you're going to die if you leave the marriage, because that is ingrained in our genetics. But the truth is, is that you're not going to die. You're just uncomfortable. And women have so many more rights than we consciously know. And I think that the best thing that for me in my marriage is, is knowing that I could leave at any time, because it has me stay for the right reasons. And also it has us nurture our relationship, because we both know that we could leave at any time. And so the glue that keeps us together isn't this promise to be together forever. The glue that keeps us together is that we love being together. We have such a great time, and he gets me on every level, and we do incredible practices together, and it's just fun. So, like, why wouldn't I just stay married forever?

I love that so much. And I think the thing that brings you guys together and to continue to choose each other is your lives are enhanced with one another.

Totally.

And I think a lot of relationships are literally together because I'm afraid of the logistics of what this divorce would look like.

Exactly. And that is not a good reason to stay together.

Yeah.

Because they're just logistics. And you'll get through it.

Yeah. And it will hurt and. But you know, it will hurt more looking back on your whole life and being like, wow, I knew 30 years ago that this person was not, you know, and the thing is that I recognize with myself, too. And leaving that marriage shifted. It was like all of these changes I had made within myself that I couldn't fully anchor. It was like once this person was out of my life, it's like, oh, like my wild feminine. My voice activated. And these were all things I was working on. But it was almost like the container dulled it. And then that person being out, I'm like, wow, what a huge shift in every area of my life from one person who I actually didn't even spend that much time with not being in it, that I'm like, oh, wow, your relationship is the most important thing in your life.

It's the most important thing. And here's one thing I want to say about that. Sometimes it is the other person and sometimes it is just us. Because I also used to do that. I also used to feel like smaller, quieter, dim my light. And I think it was because of this cultural brainwashing and this belief that Jonathan couldn't handle my wild feminine, that he didn't want to hear my loudest thoughts. And I realized that if were they, I want to stay in this marriage. I've got to show him all of me. I have to feel complete freedom, else this is not going to work. And it was so scary for me to, like, bring my wild feminine into my marriage and then, like, make breakfast for the kids the next day. I mean, like, talk about vulnerability. It's awkward sometimes. You know what I mean? But it's like, if this is your playground, you just got to go full out. Yeah.

And I think at first they may just be confused because they've never seen it before, you know, But I think it actually is a turn on.

Oh, it's a total turn on.

Even our emotions are a turn on because that's the feminine, you know, like, there's something so raw and alive.

I remember, you know, I mean, even if Jonathan didn't always know what was going on in the beginning. It was like something came alive in him that he was like, oh my God, I remember, like, how to hold this, how to be with this, like, how to meet this with like so much love and devotion. And it's so cool to play with that. And for me, leaning into my edges was the biggest part of my spiritual awakening my edges with him. Because it's easy to like, not talk to some of your old friends or to like, not show your wild feminine to your parents. But like, I've known Jonathan since I was like a preppy girl who worked in advertising. And so to lean into that is like the best spiritual awakening you'll ever do.

Did you guys do any tantric practices together that opened you up? And can you share more about that?

Yeah, definitely. We did a lot of work with John Weinland and had a great experience with that. And a lot of the work that we've done is around anointing and anointing practices and like awakening each other's bodies and then like doing breath work and a lot of just Jonathan holding the masculine and like such a huge, energetic container for me to just like play and explore in. And we do a lot of archetypal work where we're thinking about, like, how can he be a stand in for a sacred masculine archetype? How can I be a stand in for a sacred feminine archetype? And then like being able to animate those energies with each other. And it can be really hard sometimes to get into that. And when we do, we just come alive in ways that I never thought was going to be possible for us.

That's so beautiful to even witness like, him going from like resistance to. You're doing like archetypal embodiment work together and anointing each other. And it just shows, like, because you brought him on the journey, like, if.

You lean in and you give it time and you're just, you stay committed to having a great relationship and you meet every moment of resistance with love and just like, okay, wow, we like, we found our edge. Let's just sit right down in it and talk about it and feel into like, where do we need to just like inch in a little bit or titrate a little bit more? And can you share? Oh, yeah. Just like, you know, I'm terrible at titration. I'm like. So titration is like doing a little bit at a time and it's more paced where I. I'm just like 0 to 3,000 in 30 seconds. And sometimes that's just, like, too much for both of us. And so if I'm wanting to go to zero to 3,000, it's like, how can I go from, like, zero to 10 and just, like, ease into things a little bit more?

Yeah. I also have not been the best with titration because I'm like, let's go into the shadow work. Like, let's do it. And, you know, but what I've recognized is, like, what comes up must come down. And like, sometimes when you go so intense into, like, I'm gonna do all the healing work, like, right now is like, nervous system needs time to just, like, recalibrate. So what I kind of learned about healing work is like, then, like, go take a walk. Like, go get your nails done. Like, go be a human for a little bit and then, like, come back to. And I think what happens and what I've seen happen with a lot of my friends, relationships is something's wrong. And they're like, we need to address this thing that's wrong and get to the bottom of it. Are we going to be together or not? And I'm like, relationships, like, they take time, like, and change takes time. And there's two people involved and, you know, even the decision of being together or not, maybe right now you feel like I'm not meant to be to this person, but, like, the next moon cycle, you may feel totally different. So, like, don't. Unless there's something, like, really, really big that happened. Like, don't rush to make.

Do not rush. And I think that's why having the agreement of, do you want a fine relationship or a great relationship is really helpful.

Okay, here's what I struggle with. Yeah. Like, when I was married, if someone asked me, do you have a fine or great relationship? I'd be like, it's a good relationship. Wasn't fine. Was it great? No. However, I was. I'm a Capricorn, so I'm like, I'm just realistic. I know no one's perfect. Like, you know, so I didn't. I didn't question. So if you were to have asked me that, I would have said, well, you know, we were not. We never fought or anything. So it was like we were kind of smooth sailing, just very different. So how do we know if it's a great relationship or not, considering we don't have anything to compare? We don't have another marriage to be married to. Here's the thing.

Like, this is something that Jonathan, I talk about a lot where, because he would say, well, we're so much better than other people. Or, like, it's fine. Or, like, compared to my parents, we're doing great. And I just had to say, like, you can't fall off the floor. I wouldn't want to be in any of those marriages. I'm like, what if we're actually here to invent something that's never been done before? Like, what if we're here to have a marriage that no one has ever had? And I feel like what's so interesting is that so many of us are doing that in business, but we're not doing it in our relationships. And I'm like, hello. You know, it's gotta happen everywhere. You know, I always say it's like 2024 outside, but 1950s inside of a lot of marriages. We gotta update what's happening. So it's a container for us to be the fullest expression of who we are. So I would say you can't look outside yourself. You actually have to close your eyes and go into a ceremony or go into a deep meditation and ask your sou, what do I need? Or, like, soul, what do you need in your committed relationship to be the fullest expression of who you are? What's gonna be the initiation? What's gonna be the nurturing? What's gonna be the, like, fire that helps you awaken in this lifetime? And in a lot of ways, like, we gotta make it up. So I think how you know is just, like, really getting clear with yourself and letting your needs be something you've never seen before.

Do you see yourself one day starting a podcast, writing books, speaking on stages, sharing your message with the world. But the thing is, you are afraid that you're not a good enough speaker yet. Maybe you're inspired by people like me and Gabby Bernstein, and, you know, you have it within yourself too, but you just don't know where to start. Well, I have gotten this question so many times, and this is why I've created my speak with soul 21 day method. This guides you from awkward to confident speaker in just three weeks time. I guide you through daily prompts, practices, and share all of the wisdom that I have learned as a professional speaker, podcaster, author, and someone who literally makes a living sharing my voice as well as through music, and how you can too, in your own unique way. So the testimonial deals from Speak with Soul are insane. I have seen people literally be hired to host their own radio shows. Hundreds of people start their own podcasts, create YouTube channels, IG Live series, get book deals, the list goes on. So whether you want to professionally share your voice or just get better in conversation and connection and just feel more confident in what you say and not feel like you're so in your head and release any fears or hesitations you have around around the way that your voice sounds and its pitch. Well, this course covers all of it. So it's just 10 minute daily videos for 21 days that I promise you, if you follow this process, you will be a completely other person on the other side. Because truth is, when is the last time you spent any time on your speaking? For most of us it was like maybe awkward speech in high school and we never touched it again. So speaking is the way that we communicate with the world. It's the most important thing we can do. It's the way that we get our message across. And I know if you're listening to this podcast, you have a really important message to share because regular people don't listen to this podcast. So if you're feeling the call, come join me in Speak with Soul. I have a special 25% off discount for you listed below. So head over to the show notes or over to to speak with soul course.com that speak with soul course.com to receive the 25% off right now. And you can also find that link in the Show Notes. I'm so excited to hopefully be on your podcast. So how do we now get clear? Let's say there is this now shared understanding of let's let that old relationship die, build something new. How can we now rewrite our vows and set our values and expectations or even like deal breakers for the marriage moving forward?

In modern marriage, we talk about the three layers of marriage. So we talk about there's the business partnership of marriage, which is really important. A lot of couples don't treat their marriage like a business, but it is oftentimes they're shared real estate, there's shared finances, there's management of people, there's often children. And we're very flippant about it. And a lot of the people that we work with, they're actually great business people, but they're not applying any of those skills to their home. So first I think you have to just get everything sorted. The distribution of labor, the way you talk about your finances, be on the same page. Because if you were two people running a business, if you're going in two different directions, you would break up the business partnership. So when we, we look at the family unit as a Business. All of a sudden people get organized really quickly. So that is really important. And then there is the area of spending time on the romantic relationship. Because the other thing that happens is when you get married people conflate the logistics and the business of running a family with the Roman romance and they just forget that you have to like do something about that. It doesn't just happen naturally.

What do you guys do for them?

Well, we go on a date every week and we've been going on a date once a week for almost 10 years and it is the best. It's one of my favorite nights of the week. We have such a great time and often and we have a. There's no logistics. We're not allowed to talk about any to dos. It's just catch up. How are you celebrating each other? Setting intentions, you know, sharing what's been on our hearts, talking about the hard stuff. And we're all. And we're really devoted to having a deeply sacred sex life and we really.

Do you recommend scheduling sex?

I don't recommend scheduling sex. I recommend being like tending to your nervous system enough that you might be available for it during some convenient times.

Which is like a little bit different.

I found for me, I have such a difficult relationship with feeling pressured to have sex that the scheduling, it really triggered me.

Yeah, it turned me off.

Yeah, I really, it was not good for me at all. And I sometimes find the scheduling is a little bit. It makes it really physical. But for me and Jonathan it's really about being in ceremony together. And so oftentimes what we'll do is we will just be in ceremony together and if it leads to sex, great. And if it doesn't, we had a great ceremony.

So how do you be in ceremony together?

What practices do you. So what we do is we set ceremonial space. So for us it's just lighting candles and lighting incense and being near our altar and then we anoint each other because we both have an anointing practice and we will. We also have a hobby practice that we really love and which is just ceremonial tobacco for people who don't know what happen is and we share what we're releasing was on our hearts and oftentimes we'll just be in an open eyed meditation with each other and just see what comes through. And it just means that I get to be with his soul and he gets to be with mine. And it's not just about being with our bodies or being with our personalities or like being with our co parent. We get to really open up and be with each other. And sometimes I have to fall apart and cry. And sometimes that part of me that, like, feels pressure to have sex will come up to be talked about and transmuted and it works through. I hate it when that happens. But it's just like part of my bath. It can look different every time. Sometimes we're outside, you know, sometimes we're inside. Sometimes we'll be, you know, like at a hotel. I mean, it just. I think we have to be open to getting creative with it.

I love that of just taking time. Like we had this word as like, sensorium. Just taking time to, like. Like be with each other.

Senses.

Yes. You know, and it could just be like, touching each other's arms and just.

Like stroking each other.

And like, you know, I feel like we were like, time to have sex, you know, and it's like, well, for both parties and not just for women, for men too. It's like we need time for our bodies to open up. And then if there's this pressure, this expectation of, oh, my God, it's been two weeks, like, it has to happen right now. And then it's performative, you know, So I feel that's a beautiful. Think that you could schedule this ceremony or sensorium or, you know, exploration time. Time to just be with each other and maybe it ends up to be. To laugh, to cry, to have sex or whatever it is in between. But it's like uninterrupted time to be with each other, even outside of going out, where sometimes it's limited in how you can express. So I absolutely. I absolutely love that so much because, yeah, I've never been into the scheduling sex thing, but I can also see how, like, life gets busy and you go your separate ways. But I think that it would just feel so much more open and receptive if you just have that connection time, which is really.

And that's the thing to schedule is connection time.

Yes.

And when you are scheduling regular connection time or it's just built into your life, you don't need to schedule sex because it just happens.

I read this great book, Playing with Fire. Have you now?

I have read.

It's beautiful. It's this tantric couple and they have a daily morning practice where before they have two children, I think, but they meet at 6 in the morning in this, like, guest room that they have. And both of them don't know what will show up. They show up at the mat and they meditate and they open their eyes and let whatever is meant to be be and it's just their way of just checking into each other like before the kids wake up, before life starts. And just how game changing that process practice was. Wow, that's so beautiful. I love that. So did you guys actually rewrite vows for yourselves? And what was that?

Yeah, we have. I mean, Jonathan, I say that we're on like our third or fourth marriage with the same person. And what we do is we rewrite agreements. So last summer we went to Glastonbury, England, into Avalon, and we. He gave me the string in the white spring, and we created new agreements in the white spring. And our agreements right now are we promise to playful out and be the.

Fullest expression of who we are.

And so we just have this really singular North Star that we're both leaning into right now. Because what we have found is that when we trust each other. And that was the other thing because, you know, I'm a micromanager. I'm like really trying so hard to not tell him what to do all the time, but it still happens. And I go, I move at like 100 miles an hour and he's more paced. So a big part of our agreements were, you know, I had to trust him. He was going to do that. And that's one of the reasons why you take a vow in a ceremony. Because I gave up control to the goddess. So now she's in charge of making sure that he is staying committed to his vows. It's not my job anymore. And I think having one central focus for us has been really beautiful.

I think a lot of women can resonate with that control because it comes when we're like, oh my God, I can see where this is going. It's a direction I don't like. So let me. I can see it so clearly. So let me control it, you know, and we don't even think we're controlling it. We think we're like, you know, putting our input in or whatever the is. But it's the most unattractive thing for the masculine.

Yeah. And not only is it unattractive, but it's. It's like more of the same stuff where I really got into a pattern where I was like living 40% of Jonathan's life. And so he only had to show up like 60% of the time. I was just like spoon feeding him the books to read and telling him what to do all the time and constantly giving him a boost and cheering him up and pumping it up. I was like his own personal 20 Robbins. So exhausting. And it meant that he never learned how to do that for himself. So what I always say to our clients inside of Modern Marriage is that we can have a standard, but we can't make them reach that standard. Like, they have to find their own tools and their own support and their own inspiration. Else. It's just really exhausting.

I think a lot of us spiritual men, we take on that role.

We definitely do, you know, like, oh.

He'S in a weird mood. Like, let me help him get better. Like, let me figure out why. Is it because of me? And we start, and it's, like, so hard because it's like you're empathic, you know, and it's actually really challenging to be at peace when your partner's not because you feel their energy so much, for sure. So it's almost like, I can't be at peace until you're. Let me help you get.

So this is what we do. This is a major. That I've actually been really working through recently, is because he had this moment where I was gone and he was in a bad mood, and he, like, looked for me to help him get better, and he was like, wow, I really saw that. I couldn't help myself. I really felt like I needed you to, like, give me the pep talk and boost me up. He's like, I don't want to be like that. And what I had to realize was, oh, I get a hit from that. It makes me feel worthy. It makes me feel like I'm doing something. It makes me feel needed. So what we do now is if he's in a bad mood, we have an agreement that he leaves the room. So it's like we have to separate our energy systems. So he's not allowed to be in, like, a super grumpy bad mood in the same room as me.

So do you process stuff with him anymore?

I mean, we do, but it's like, he's gotta come to me and be like, I wanna process this, as opposed to, I don't wanna process it. I just wanna be grumpy, and you process it for me.

So now, if you see that he's grumpy, in a mood, do you mention anything or no?

Yeah, I'm like. Like, hey, seems like you're in a bad mood, and I don't like being in the same room as you when you're like this. So could you go be in a bad mood somewhere else? So it's sort of like that.

Okay, so you don't ask him why?

Nope. I mean, sometimes if. And then I'LL see like if he can move through it quickly. Yeah. Because also, Jonathan, I understand that angry men are triggering for women. And so I'm gonna go into fight or flight if he's in an anger mood. If he's sad and vulnerable, I can be with that. That's not dangerous. And anger is almost always over sadness. So I can process with him if he can bring down his anger to sadness and we can actually get into it. And then I can hold him and be with him and love him and witness him, but I actually don't have capacity to do that if he's in anger and frustration.

Like I would remember with my ex, sometimes he would wake up and just be like moody. And then I would like be like, was it something I said? Or this? And be proud. And then it was like my whole day. And then he would like come back and be fine. I was just like, I just went through this whole thing and here just makes better now. Yeah, I love that you guys brought that to the table and decided next time this happens, I'm not going to be like, hey, are you okay? Are you this? Are you that? Which, you know, probably he got something out of that too. Oh, he did. He loved it, you know. Yeah, of course he did.

Oh crap, she's not here.

Exactly. But that puts him into a position of self empowerment, which is way sexier and gonna put him in his masculine and allows him to be self sourced and when you're gone, be able to deal with the bad moods himself. So.

And like we're all allowed to be in a bad mood. Let's just not use each other as a punching bag or feel like we just have permission to dump our bad moods all over our partner. And you know, the other thing I say a lot is I'm like, seems like you need your mom right now. Like, I'm not your mom.

Okay, can we talk about that? How thing that I see now being outside of a relationship, they're saying, be nurturing. Men really need that. Men really need help to be in touch with their emotions.

Then obviously I just disagree.

Yeah. So then on the other hand, don't be his mother. And I'm like, where? It's almost like when you're a woman who's nurturing, obviously his reference point is going to be mother because that was his first realization. So it's like, how do we draw this?

Well, I just feel like there's a difference between being, I mean, sure, like I'm nurturing because I love him, but like there's A difference between being nurturing as a wife and being nurturing as a mom. And I think we all have to explore what that flavor means for us. And I really believe that men have the capacity to work through their own emotions. Like, they do not need us to do that. They're incredibly smart, deep beings.

Sounds like we're talking about this, like, animal out there. We're like, the men, they're really smart. Believe that. But totally. Yeah. We're like poor men. They can. They can't deal things themselves. We got to do it for them. Yeah.

It's just not true. Yeah.

It's actually so coddling. Yeah.

And they maybe have not been taught, but this is why. I mean, this is why Jonathan has men's work, is he literally teaches men how to express their emotions and handle them themselves.

And men need to support other men in this.

Well, this is the thing. And talk to each other. And you know, Jonathan's best friend, they talk every morning at 7am on the way to work. It's the best. And I sometimes I'm like, I can't handle this one. So if you could just call Mike, that would be great. And he's like, totally sorry about that, you know, so it's great. Or I will also call Jonathan's mom, who I have a great relationship with, and I'll be like, hey, Jonathan's really having a hard time right now. Like, will you. Will you give him a call? And she does. And like, oftentimes they just need their mom, and then I can be his wife, and she's just different.

Did you start it off like that or did.

Oh, no, I was his mom. I was for sure his mom. I was his mom. I was his life coach. I was his cheerleader. And I think it's really fun to think about what archetypal roles you sort of fall into by accident. Because Jonathan was a football player and he's also a physician. So, like, he'll put me in cheerleader nurse role regularly. And he's a man, so he, like, loves his mom. So I was finding myself in all of these. These supportive roles, and I had to be like, wait a second. I want to be in king and queen. I want to be in priest and priestess. I don't want to be football player, cheerleader, or like, doctor nurse, where he's just like, give me. Pass me the forceps. You know what I mean? It's like, no. So it's fun to look at that. However, when we were in mother son role, I sort of got to be in charge. I got to feel like I was in control. He never challenged me and I got to just be right all the time, which I loved. But now he calls me out of my shit because he's done his own work and we're equals, not only in the home, but in spirit. And so he'll be like, you know, I didn't like it when you did that, or that feels really out of integrity, or that's not in our agreement field or, you know, do you really mean that? Like, he just. He really calls me out all the time and it's so annoying, but it's great. And he's usually right. So it's like we have to look at what our part in it is. It's rarely only our male partner like putting us in some sort of role.

And that's truly what a conscious relationship is. It's not a relationship that's always easy, that never has conflict. Oh, no, no. It's actually going to be. Bring out those shadows even more quickly for them to be transmuted and healed. And how beautiful that you're both bringing them into each other's awareness because that shows that you care. Whereas a lot of times there are people are just like, oh, it's not even worth the argument, which is basically saying, this relationship doesn't actually really matter to me.

Right.

And it's that fine line of how much do we separate? You know, like on one end is the woman being like, well, he's never going to meet any of my emotional needs, so I'm just going to have my girls and like, let him just be a man, show up, provide, have dinner, sex, some things, and that's it. And then there's the other end where it's like a measurement and totally. And it's like finding that happy medium of you both have your counsel, you know. And do you know what's really interesting that I learned is that when women have issues in their lives, they tend to go to their friends and their partner. For men, they tend to go to their partner and their family. So women perceive friends like sisters, like siblings. Men perceive them like cousins.

Interesting.

So men in general just have a looser relationship with their friends. Like your cousin, you don't like tell everything happening in your life unless it's like a sister to you, you know, but your, your friends, they are sisters.

Yeah.

So that was really interesting for me to. Because I was like, oh my God, that makes. Because if I'm upset, some people call their parents, but I don't. I would go to my friend before I go to my parents, you know, Whereas for a lot of men, they need their moms, like, they. They need that. So that was really interesting. But then that it doesn't come as naturally to men to be vulnerable to other men. And they don't really know where to start. So how did him and his friend decide to have this, like, connection? How did he end up in these men's circles? How can we encourage them to have more of these male connections?

Well, I was just really clear that I couldn't be his wife, his mom, and his friend. And so I just said, like, it just feels out of balance. Like, you need to have a circle of people who can hold you because it's too much for me. And especially, like, we have three kids now, you know what I mean? And I want to be one point of support and his most important point of support, but, like, not everything. So I really requested it. So he went out and found it and deliberately nurtured friendships. And now this is what he helps create in men's work and in his retreats, which is amazing. And the truth is that most men want friends and they want to have a deep relationship. So if you just start, then people will open up.

Did he start with an in person men's circle that he found or.

He started with. He started going to Sacred Sons and. Which is an amazing organization. And then he wanted to create a program that was specifically for professional dads because he just felt like him being a physician and a father of three came with a different set of challenges than men who don't have kids or who aren't working, you know, in a corporate job experience. So he started off in person and then those, you know, became phone relationships because they don't live near. Near us because we're still outside of Boston. And it's like not a ton of people wanted to talk about their feelings there.

I love that because it goes to show that it doesn't necessarily mean you have to, like, live in an area where there's, like, men's circles happening, but joining existing ones.

Yeah, go to one, go to a retreat, join an online program and just like, get on the phone with people because, like, we're all so busy. And so it's nice that Jonathan has people he can call on his commute. And then we, you know, just the way that we have set up our community is we just get on airplanes and we go make sure that we have in person time to continue to nurture those relationships even though we're not like seeing them on the sidelines of the soccer fields every weekend.

Yeah. And I think that it's important to, like, prioritize that of, you know, maybe with your men's circle or even your goddess circle, like twice a year you get together and you see each other. Just like you would prioritize having like your team meeting or something like that. It's so important. And I feel that a lot of men did not grow up with male role models. You know, most of their fathers were absent. Yeah. Whether they were in the family or not, a lot of them are just emotionally absent. And so a lot of men that I sit to really mourn not having a healthy male role model, healthy relationship role model. And so they're kind of in the dark, you know, and then they're getting advice often from, like, toxic men, you know, and those voices tend to be the loudest, you know. And so I find a lot of men, they. They know that this is possible, but they don't really know who to go to. So I feel that. That such an imperative role because we can only do so much of the work. It needs to be. They're doing the work, and then there's this simultaneous work that's also, I think.

One of the shadows of the personal development industry. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say to women, if you just do your work and, like, clean up your inner stuff, like, he'll just change. That is not true. And it drives me crazy because that's just perpetuating this unseen emotional labor that we're doing literally everywhere else. Like, do we have to do it in the soul work too?

No.

Thank you.

So a lot of this, this like David, data polarity work, they talk about the three levels of consciousness.

Yes.

So level one, for people who haven't heard is like just the typical norm, you know, role mates. Right.

Yeah.

Man, leader, provider, dad, woman, stay at home, mom, submissive, traditional, manipulative with. With all the shadows. Level two is very like, we talk about how we feel. We use nonviolent communication. Like, when you said this, I felt that, let's sit down and have a meeting around it, which is like, where a lot of the person. Personal development space is at.

Yeah.

And then level three is using your body, using emotions, and even bringing back some of the qualities of level one of like, okay, even though we are equal in our rights, I'm going to lean into my feminine. You're going to lean into your masculine for polarity. One thing about that, that I. I And I really resonate with this one thing about it that I question is they're like, instead of telling your man how you feel, just, like, do an interpretive dance for him. You know, like, instead of telling him, like, when you. What you said hurt me, like, have a sword and take a video of yourself. And I'm like, why aren't we allowed to use our words? You know.

I think that, like, works if you're like, meeting up for sex a few times a week.

Right?

You know what I mean? But it's like when you're living with someone and you have three kids.

Read between the lines here.

Level.

You know what I mean?

And that's why. It's why Jonathan and I wanted to create our own marriage course. Because we were going to all these workshops and we're like, this is missing a big part of our unique challenges of being householders together and being together since we were 18. And, you know, a big part of this is something. I'm going to take a quick, like, left turn for a second. I will come back to. This is a big part of us being able to open to each other sexually was. I had to. I had a backlog of, you know, 12 years of stuff I was pissed about that I hadn't really emoted yet. And so I had to. I remember, like, the first time we went to a John Wineland retreat, I literally just screamed at him the entire weekend because I had so much rage that I had to get out. And we had to move through all those things. And we still have moments where I'm like, hey, I'm noticing. I'm really mad about this thing that happened like, like seven years ago. And now he's. He used to be like, oh, my God, Sarah, like, again, I thought we already did this seven years ago. Now he's like, okay, babe, tell me, like, what's coming up for you? And he's just like, I am so sorry. That was so unfair. I'm so sorry you went through that. That is so brutal. And I'll just be like, okay, thank you. Yeah. So I feel like we talking. It's just been clinically proven to show that talking things out heals our brains and puts us into a rest and digest state. And when you are householders together, when you've been together for 20 years, like, you gotta be able to talk about stuff. And I also think that sometimes things can only be like, Jonathan, I had this funny thing happened last week where the kids were on their iPads and he was, like, upset that they didn't put their iPads down and, like, say hi to him. And so I got. I just got annoyed by him wanting to just, like, center himself. And coming home, it felt like a little bit antiquated to me. So I put on an apron, and I went up. I was like, oh, hi, honey. I'm so glad you're home. It's so good to see you. It's like, can I get you a scotch in a bathrobe? And he's just like, okay, I got it. You know, so sometimes it works better and it's fun, but I. You know, just. If you're married with kids, it's just different.

Yeah. I think that the invitation, like, I love how you brought humor into that moment instead of being like, hey, like, stop centering the kids, and this is bringing up this. And it just would have turned into a process, which is. You'd have to navigate that time to do that. Right.

You know, it's like, if someone is really doing something that's like, get mad.

Yeah.

You know, but sometimes you can just kind of like. Like, get your point across by joking about it.

Yeah. And I think every couple has their own language and their own dynamic. Like, I interviewed Orin Harris on the podcast. I don't know if you know him, who's amazing, but he says, like, through sex, they navigate their conflicts, and they're very.

I could not do that.

Yeah. But, like, that's their language together. Yeah. And it's like, you know, for some people, maybe it is, like, interpretive dancing or singing or combination. And I think it is helpful to bring in that embodiment of, like. Like, you know, you going to the workshop where you can just rage and scream, that probably is beyond you being able to process of, like, all, like, you're probably screaming for things that were for your ancestors that you didn't even know, and you had to do that. And it's like. Yeah. And it's like, we're actually all in all three levels, you know, at all times, and it's really vacillating between them. But it's something that. Yeah. Like, I've had this intention of, like, oh, I want to be in a level three conscious relationship. But then at the same time, it's like. And, you know, we're humans and we're in these busy worlds.

I think it's great to have that in your relationship, you know, because for so long, Jonathan and I didn't have that. You know, we were really just so on the human. And then I would go meet My soul and, like, commune with the goddess with my girlfriends in ceremony. But it's like, I wanted that in my marriage, and it's okay to want that. Yeah, but we're not, like, there while we're, like, making pancakes for the kids on Saturday morning.

Exactly.

Yeah.

But you get to see each other. Like, even just your practice of eye gazing, you know, is like, it will just naturally allow any walls to crumble without a conversation.

Totally. And it's when you can really feel the walls. Like, it's often uncomfortable for me. And I would like much rather watch TV sometimes because it's the thing that highlights where we still have blocks around our heart. And it's hard sometimes, but I'm just here for it.

So beautiful. I love this all so much. And do you have any tips, too? I know a lot of couples struggle with entering into the childhood chapter.

Yeah.

And I know you have three kids, and it is another death and rebirth of the relationship. And I just. Just see a lot of my friends who are parents really struggle with this. If you have any words of wisdom.

I do. I have so many. The thing that's coming up for me right now is to really watch the parts of us as a woman that feel like we have to kill off parts of ourselves in order to be a mom. So when I became a mom, it was so hard for me because I felt like parts of me were dying. I didn't feel like I was going to be able to really go after my career the way I wanted to. I felt was worried that my sensual self was never going to come back or that she wasn't allowed to come back. And because we've only been raised with these two archetypes of the virgin mother and the whore that we feel like we have to choose. And the archetypes and stories that we have grown up with deeply impact our psychology. And this is why I do. What I do is to educate women on the sacred feminine so that we have a wide range of archetypes of women and what it means needs to be a mother. And so when I started really learning about the goddesses and Mary Magdalene and learning that Mary Magdalene had children and her and Jesus had, like, the most sexual relationship on the planet, I was like, oh, I can actually be more than one thing. I can have range. I can be a mom and be my fullest expression and be in my sensuality and go after my career and be all of who I want to be. And when I gave myself permission to be all of that, it helped me and Jonathan not feel so suffocated by our children. And it is a ton of work, but there's no need to also have that extra layer of feeling like parts of you need to die. Because the work became easier when I ignited all those other parts of me that are really super powerful.

Yeah, that's so powerful. Because I see a lot of mothers struggle with, well, how can I be sensual? What will my children think that will be embarrassing for them. And, you know, because we've grown up like, oh, my God, your parents are kissing. Like, gross. And it's like, how beautiful that your parents still have affection for each other. I remember it's like. Like when you're a kid, it's like, my parents have sex and it's like, oh, no. Like, so traumatic. Why should that be traumatic?

It just doesn't have to be like that. Yeah, exactly. You know what I mean? I mean, I think there's like, it's good to have, like, it's age appropriate about boundaries with our kids. But, you know, I just think that we have to look at our own internalized belief systems, sensuality and motherhood, and make space for both and look at where those belief systems come from. And when we look at the brainwashing that has occurred and we really study it, we get. We get mad really quickly and then we turn it around.

Yeah. And I've seen something so beautiful with my friends. They have kids and it's this identity crisis and this rebirth. And, you know, all of a sudden they're like, my business is not that important to me anymore because I'm with this child. But around a year later, then they have all this creative energy and like, the greatest things in their business.

I think this is the important thing to understand. So my kids are 10, 9, and 6. I think it is really healthy to, like, be super devoted to a baby and to have your partner really devoted to you so that you can be devoted to this baby. And that's something that I didn't have because Jonathan was in residency. So I was also working while I was having. I had two kids back to back, which was not ideal. I wouldn't recommend. There is a time for that. But the way you are as a mother in your first two years of your kid's life is. Is not the type of mother that you'll be for their lifetime. You know, nursing changes your brain. You know, being pregnant changes your brain. And if you just be in the season of where you're at and know that it's not permanent, I think it Just gives yourself so much freedom to not make any decisions about how you're going to be as a mom forever. It's. You know, I ended up calling myself a birther when my kids were babies, so I didn't even really use the word mother. It's like, I'm a. I'm a birther right now. I'm pregnant, and I'm birthing, and I'm nursing, and I have these infants, and it's different. And then when my youngest turned four, all of a sudden, I felt like a mother and a woman, and I just had all this energy to create something really spectacular.

Yeah. I think what motherhood shows you is just how seasonal life is because the seasons change so rapidly, and everything in life is seasonal. But I think motherhood, because children are growing so quickly that you're in that pregnancy season, it's very distinct, that infancy season, that toddler season, with very different sets and challenges and. And what I find so beautiful, especially that a lot of us have online businesses now, is it fuels your creative purpose. And I've noticed my friends who are moms is like, because time is limited, they do things that would have taken you, like, weeks to do, like, in a day. And so, in a way, it's like they're working less and they're actually creating so much more. And it's coming from this place of devotion and caring about more than just ourselves, but, like, really caring about the future and the collective. So it's been really beautiful to witness. Some of my friends, they've launched podcasts or, you know, a documentary or all of these, like, really beautiful, creative projects that maybe wouldn't. Definitely wouldn't have happened in that way had it not been for their motherhood journey.

Yeah, it's so true.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom, and I'll have your links below. But where can listeners connect with you?

Yes. So if you go to Instagram and type in Sarah with an H Jenks, the thing I would recommend doing is dming me the word partner, because then you'll get that guide around how to get your partner to do inner work. If you want to dive into more of a workshop, they can DM me the word reset. And we have a marriage reset workshop that I teach with Jonathan.

I love that. Well, thank you so much for being open about the different stages of your marriage. And it really gives so much of us hope, because I know a lot of us will throw out the baby with the bathwater of, like, marriage doesn't work, period. So never do it. And it's like, no, it's just like saying jobs don't work. Well, most, most jobs aren't fun, but we have created our own jobs and they're amazing. And so what you said really inspires me as I like open back up into the possibility of like, it doesn't have to be in that way, but it can be something. It's because it's like what you said really resonated. Like we've created everything in our lives. You know, we've created the way we interact with our friends, our businesses, our self care. It's like, so why would we not create this?

Exactly. I. And I really feel like it's here for us and to be so excited that we get to create this whole new way to do marriage that has been an institution that has not supported women for thousands of years and we get to reinvent it. It's an incredible responsibility and something that I think we should all be really excited about.

Yay. I love it so much. We'll have those links listed below. Thank you so much for being on and if you love this episode, share with your friend, share it with your partner. This is a really good one for you and your partner to listen to and have a conversation around. Yeah. What did you think about this part? What do you think about having our session Sensorium exploration date? What do you think about men's circles and women's circles and having friends and family be more involved in being emotional support systems? I think all of, if we really acted upon all of the things that Sarah mentioned today, we would have such better marriages and that would lead to higher creativity, higher sense of joy. Like your marriage and the quality of your relationship affects everything in your life. So it's like we realize when we, the more we pour into this, the more we're going to get into in every single area. So be sure to share it with your friends, your partner on your Instagram stories and tag us and let me know as well in the, in the reviews what you liked about this episode and any future conversations you'd love for me to have. Thank you again for tuning in and I'll see you in the next one. So trust your intuition, trust your inner wisdom, trust your inner guidance.