116: Master Your Relationships with Conscious Love Expert Mark Groves

Namaste. It's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. This episode is brought to you by you. Veda Yuveda is a modernized Ayurvedic supplement company that takes certain issues that we have such as mood, joints, immunity, digestion and creates these custom little packets exactly for us, infusing ancient Ayurvedic herbs with modern vitamins and minerals. I take the mood formula daily. It is great if you work a stressful job, had adrenal fatigue, ever suffer from anxiety or even depression, and it really heals you from a fundamental and holistic level. So if you want to try it out, head over to Uveda Y-O-U-V-E-A.com use the code Sahara and you'll receive 30 35% off your first order. And they now ship to almost every country globally, so check it out. If you live internationally, they may be shipping to your country too. And they just added India. Guys, have you been wanting to integrate ancient Ayurvedic wisdom into your lifestyle but been confused, bombarded or daunted by all the confusing terminology? Well, Eat Feel Fresh is exactly for you. As Dr. Mark Hyman says, Eat Feel Fresh provides a much needed plant based solution to Ayurvedic nutrition that the world has been waiting for. So head over to eatfeelfresh.com book to place your pre order and submit your receipt. And as my token of gratitude to you, I will send you in the in your email 10 bonus recipes that are not included in the book. And for all North American orders, I will send you in the snail mail assigned bookplate as well as an inspirational card to begin you on your ayurvedic journey. It's time to eat and feel fresh. I met Mark Groves at Wanderlust Oahu this march where we both were teaching workshops in their speakeasy. And the moment Mark and I met, we could not stop talking about all things love and relationships. So I always tell people if I wasn't whatever I am ayurvedic podcast teacher woman, I would for sure be a matchmaker. Because I'm obsessed. Obsessed with love. Obsessed with what makes people work together. Ask anyone that's ever been my roommate. I have helped all of my roommates find the loves of their life. I help everyone find the loves of their like if you're looking for someone, I'm gonna hook you up. Like I love love. Which is why my next book I'm not gonna give you too many details, but there's gonna be some love involved and some other stuff. So I'm really excited to have Mark on the podcast. We recorded this episode a while ago before I got engaged, so I have to have him back for now. A post engagement episode. But we talked about all things dating, online dating. How can you make it work? And I share with you a little personal story about online dating, too. We talk about how to have clear communication with your partner, how to make time for a relationship, how to really look at gender roles in an empowering way while still honoring differences between females and men. So this is a really juicy episode. Mark Groves is a relationship coach, an expert. He is amazing. His Instagram is Reate the Love and it's so good. So many great quotes he has on there that are all his. And that's actually. I realized when I had met him, I had just started following him two days before that. What are the odds? I had just randomly. I didn't even know he was teaching there because I just loved his quote so much. So he is a really good example of a very conscious man. He's taken, unfortunately, ladies, but he's really able to teach us women how to look at relationships because sometimes when it's like your girlfriends who are all in the same position as you, giving you relationship advice, it can be hard because there's no one coming in from another perspective. So he gives us that male perspective. Not that any one male can speak for all males, but he brings in that more masculine energy, but also really just how to be conscious about it and how to respect both partners. And I love what he says about online dating because this is a massive way that a lot of us are meeting these days. I feel like there was a lot of stigma about it before, and now it's becoming the norm. I remember I watched this funny video on YouTube and it was like five years ago, and it's these two couples on a date, like a double date. And one of the couple's like, so how'd you guys meet? And they were like, oh, we met through online dating. And they were like, what? Online dating? Weren't you scared that he was going to be a rapist? How did you know that she wasn't going to be one of those girls who pretends they're someone else catfishing you? Oh, my God. And it's like all these questions and stuff, like, I can't believe you guys met online. And it's like today and then same couple on a double date. And it's like, so, how'd you guys meet? And it's like, oh, we actually met in person. And you're like, what? You met in person? How'd you know he wasn't a rapist? How'd you know she wasn't crazy? And it's so funny because now it's almost weird when I see. I'm like, you met that person in person? Like, you just bumped into each other. Like, how does that happen these days? Because I feel like we're all so separate these days. We're all, like, doing our own thing. We're spending much more time at home. We're just at work and at home and on our computers. And there's less group engagement times, which is how, for example, at our parents age, people would meet each other. They would hang out with, like, massive groups of friends. I feel like it's like the movie Grease where it's the girls and the guys, the flamingos. And they would hang out in these big groups and they would spot each other and kind of flirt and get to know each other and meet. And that's even what it was like when you're in high school or even in college, because you're spending so much time in a group setting. But now it's so different because we're all by ourselves all the time. And a lot of it is because we choose to. So it can make it hard to meet new people. And when you're at a bar, chances are you don't want to spend your time at a bar. And even if you do, what are you going to do? You see a cute guy, it's like, just like, walk up to him. How do you know he's not dating someone? This, that, or, you know, I was with my cousin. I'm trying to set her up with someone. We were at the beach and we saw this guy who is so her type of what she's looking for. And then we were like, so what do we do now? Like, she. He's with his friends. Like, we're not just gonna, like, go walk up to him. So nothing happened, of course. So it's just interesting how the relationship dynamics have changed and how online dating is becoming more and more commonplace. And I don't think it's a bad thing. I think it's a great thing. I mean, I'm gonna share with you a very personal thing of my own with online dating. So I'm all about that. And we talk about how to make your dating profile work in this episode. We talk about how you can set up your profile so it's optimal, very authentic to who you are, do's and don'ts on dating profiles he goes through which I love. Some really good ones. Guys, take notes. And I just love this episode so much. So without further ado, let's welcome Mark Groves to the Highest Self podcast. Well, cool. Welcome Mark, to the Highest Self podcast. It's so great to have you here.

It's so great to be here, especially with a name like that. Woo.

Well, that's the first question I'm going to ask you. What makes you your highest self?

I would say that your highest self is operating at your highest level of knowledge. So as you learn things, do you change? Do you go towards what feels light? And I think the other side of that too is allowing yourself the space to keep learning, you know, the compassion to know that you didn't know what you didn't know when you didn't know it and to just though I guess in that space of not knowing better or not knowing right or whatever it is, by having compassion for those mistakes, you allow yourself to be able to integrate them so that you can again live at your highest level of knowledge. So maybe that's a long answer, but beautiful.

And I think it speaks to so much about how you used to not know about relationships and now it's what you teach. So can you give us a little story about why you are doing this work?

Well, yeah. So my, I guess I call it a rock bottom of sorts was when I was 27 and got engaged. It wasn't the engagement, you know, the active, it wasn't the engagement itself that was a rock bottom so much as how I felt once I popped the question because I sort of came face to face with a lot of truths that I didn't know what I was doing. That at the time, you know, I was thinking too, I didn't want to marry this woman and I didn't know why. And she is such a great woman. So it was losing in relationship and not knowing why I was such a good communicator at work and I used to do, you know, I was doing sales and I was teaching training on communication. And then all of a sudden I'm in this relationship and I'm like, why am I so bad at communicating how I feel like it's not a skill set issue, it's something else. So when that relationship ended, I was in that space of just like lost. I didn't know who I was, I didn't know what I wanted And I'd never really taken the time to say, like, what do I actually want? As opposed to what I was taugh. And that became a really large separating point for me, was being able to recognize, like, who am I versus who have I constructed in order to fit in and in order to, you know, participate in this world and be part of, you know, the religion I was part of and part of, you know, our, you know, any community, you know. So I guess in a lot of ways it was the journey to teaching relationships was because I sort of. I believe that you sort of. Your mess becomes your message. You know, you become the teacher you needed. And I sure needed me many times. And I see that every time I learn something new, I needed me, you know, whatever I learned. And then I teach from that space of learning, then it's really being able to teach to my old self, really.

Exactly. And I truly believe that you can only really coach a former version of yourself. Right. It's like, if you have never been there, how are you going to even know what the questions and problems rising in their head are? It's like, I can't. I wouldn't be able to coach, like, I don't know, like, men who used to be in jail. Like, I have no idea what that's like. So I think it's like, why else would you want to teach people how to have healthier relationships? You must not have been in a healthy relationship or been able to communicate. So that is amazing. And I think all of us have been there. I don't think you're unique. I think it's like a universal issue that no one we don't go to school about, no one teaches us how to have healthy relationships. And they're the cornerstone of our life.

Absolutely. And, you know, like, isn't that so fascinating that, you know, in the research too, it's so supported that the quality of your relationships will determine the quality of your life. And yet here we are sort of bumping around not knowing exactly what we're doing. And our school systems are not necessarily, for the most part, are not teaching these skill sets. And if you're good at relationship, if you master being great at romantic relationships, you will automatically be good at all relationships. You'll have a different relationship to your body. You'll have a different relationship to food. You'll have a different relationship at work, too. So I think it's such like a one, you know, it's like you focus on this and you get it aligned. Your relationship to yourself, your relationship to Others. And you really would will start to see alignment in everything.

That is so true. Because so many people, like, come to me and they're like, oh, I'm having relationship issues. I can't find the one. Da, da, da. And it's like, okay, how are you treating yourself? Are you being the person that you are seeking? And we're, like, picturing this perfect partner who works out every day and has a great job and knows his purpose and, you know, everything. And are we doing that?

No, no, my gosh. Right. We have this, like, idea of what we want. You know, I hear often people say, like, I want someone who's honest, who communicates. And I'm like, well, are you doing that? Are you being honest with yourself?

Totally. Yes. And I think we kind of attract a partner who is where we are at, and I think that's really hard for people to take in.

Yeah. Especially when we keep attracting the same type of person, you know, that we're like, why do I keep. Because you're supposed to say no to them, you know, or you're supposed to invite them into a different place, which invites you into a different place by actually saying, like, hey, what I really need from you are, hey, when you do that thing, it's not really a good fit for me. Especially in the early dating process, Right?

Yes, exactly. We're attracting exactly, like, that thing that we need to work on. And it's gonna keep showing up for us in different people in different ways until we, like, address the problem.

Till we finally do. Which when we do that, oh, my gosh, it's amazing how much the world changes for us.

Exactly. So this is a problem that I see. It's an epidemic, I would say. Or is it. I don't know, maybe it's just here. La. But I'm seeing a lot of my friends are single and they're amazing people, at least in terms of my friendship with them. I've never been in a romantic relationship with them, and it seems to be what they all say is, there's no conscious men out there. There's no guys who are into this stuff. And it's hard for me to find someone who I can fully speak to. So what do you say to these women?

Well, first off, that's a pretty scarce mentality. You don't need guys. You just need one. So you just gotta find one. Unless you're polyamorous. It is. La. So then you might need more than one. But the, you know, all joking aside, as you, you know, step into that space of starting to look at your own personal growth and start. I mean, it probably is fair to say that there are less men doing that specific type of work just because of the socialization that's allowed women, you know, socially. It's more socially acceptable to be pursuing emot intelligence and outside of the context of work. Right. Like from a romantic perspective, that's not necessarily something that's celebrated for men, if that makes sense.

For sure.

And then the other side of it is, is that, you know, we have. We have man talks here in Vancouver and that's a community that's like TED Talks for Men. It's founded by Connor Beaton and it's a really cool event where men and women can go. And I've often heard men say it's so hard to find a woman who's doing this work and open, you know, to these conversations. So I think it's more of a human issue in that we seem to find ways to hold ourselves back from connection, you know.

Right.

It's not going to just show up the moment, you know, it's not like the secret. You're like, I want a red bike, and a red bike just comes to you. It's like you have to put in the work. And I really do believe that, you know, fate needs to be intentional. Like, you need to put yourself in the direction of what you seek. And if you're still out of alignment or integrity in a lot of areas of your life, or even some. And that might even be like, well, I'll have this conscious one nights, you know, hookup, friends with benefits. Well, every time you're in your friends with benefits situation, you're now in a different place on the planet than you could be if you were actually saying to the universe, what I really want is a relationship. What would you be in that relationship?

Totally. Exactly. So. And it's interesting to see that the guys are saying the same thing. Because I've only been a girl, so I'm only. I. To me, I'm like, oh, it's just a girl issue that there aren't enough guys. But I do think that it is accurate that there are much more women diving into this. Because it's like, for men, it's like, okay, focus on what is the most productive thing possible that's going to make me money. And like me going to a workshop on relationships, I'm not seeing an immediate reward for that. So it's not as high up as a priority for most men.

Yeah, it doesn't feel like it. Right. That's what the sense is.

Yeah.

And I, you know, as far as I, my experience goes, I know that for men, finding a partner and being able to connect with them deeply is something that's very important. Now. I think we also have a lot of, I mean, there's so many different confounding factors in that. If you look historically, you know, coming from patriarchy, where emotions weren't celebrated, so all the children of patriarchy and feminism, the men don't tend to have much of a voice, which is, I mean, the rise of feminism is incredible, especially for how it's changed the world and how it continues to, especially right now. But at the same time, we have very convoluted messages going to young men. Like, imagine being a 12 year old boy right now and reading the news and then at the same time reading a meme from like someone famous that says, why can't I just find a man who will take me? And now you have very contradictory messages of what it means to be a man and what, you know, all that stuff looks like. And I think there's just not a lot of clarity and a lot of. And I don't say this as a martyr, I just don't think there's a lot of clarity and a lot of safety for men to be having that conversation if they don't have the tools. You know, like, it's one thing to be able to be able to articulate yourself and participate in those conversations, but it's another thing if you're already a little bit afraid. Does that make sense?

Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think especially with the whole like 50 shades of gray thing, and it's like all these women being like, I just want a guy who will dominate me and doesn't listen to me. And then they're like, wait, what? I thought you wanted us to like, respect you, but now you're actually saying you want this and it is a total mind fuck because they don't know.

What to do when I think too, that that goes back to, you know, I guess your immediate question of like, why, you know, for women saying, like, why can't I find conscious men doing that work out there? And I wrote an article long time ago that was called why youy Might Not Be Ready for the Evolved man youn say youy Want.

I was just reading it before this interview. It's really good.

Yeah, well, and the idea was like, if you actually met him, would you be ready for him?

Right.

Because you've, you've always been wearing the emotional pants in the relationship, you've always been taking the lead. So what happens if a man does? And I think it more goes to, like, what is our evolutionary drive and what is our drive for partnership versus what does our conscious mind know as a great partner? And if you look at the research on it, we are drawn to, you know, women are drawn to men who have power and money and a strong physique and all that kind of stuff, because evolutionarily, that was the good choice. And they, they're not really thinking, like, is this guy gonna call me in a couple weeks? Like, is he treat. You know, like, on an evolutionary level, when we meet someone who doesn't strike as much tension for us, but we know they'd be a great partner, it might not feel like desire is there as much. And I really think that a lot of our learning, of course desire must be there to create relationship, but I think a lot of our learning is actually trying to understand the difference between like a wounded based chemistry or an evolutionary based chemistry versus what is actually a great partner choice, which will also create tension.

Exactly. Like, you hit the nail on the head and this is what the issue is. And both, both parties, both men and women, since we're in this, like, very shiftly evolving world, we don't know, like, in the past there have been such clearly defined gen gender roles that you're like, oh, this is what a wife is like. That's what a husband's like. And you're just, how, how much do they fit into that box? And then we move to the feminists where it's like, don't open the doors for us, like, don't treat us any differently. And now it's moved into this sort of like, we are goddesses again and like, embracing the divine feminine, but we need more conscious men. But this is still so new that the education hasn't really been put there.

Yes, I agree. It's a very, you know, it's such a, like a subject filled with landmines in a lot of ways, because it's like, what do you say that is, you know, okay to say that's not going to piss a ton of people off. And I mean, I really do believe that the, that we're in sort of like a relationship revolution in that, you know, relationships, marriage more specifically. But relationally, relationships were more built on systems. You know, they were more built on keeping a family together and growing a farm and building a business. And you married the person at the farm next to your farm. You know, everything was very much More systemic. And now we're in a place where you can. In a lot of places, but not everyone has the pleasure of this. You could choose your partner, you know, and not only that, you can marry them for love, you know, and if they don't grow with you or you don't grow with them, you can end the relationship. Divorce wasn't even an option, really, before the 1960s. So when people say, oh, well, you know, generations of the past took commitment more seriously, they didn't just leave when things got rough. Well, they also couldn't leave. So now we've created this narrative that what we want from a relationship and what we believe relationships are today is actually lesser than. And I so disagree with that. I think we actually are better at relationship today than we've ever been. I think that we're better communicators. I think we want more, but I also think we bring more.

It's so true. I think we super idealize, like, oh, I want a relationship like my grandparents. And like, your grandparents had no choice. They just had to deal with each other, but they made it work. But we judge a relationship based off of quantity versus quality.

That's right. You know, I said in previously in past conversations, it's like we celebrate anniversaries, but we don't celebrate death. Like, that's a really good marker of what we get rewarded in society for in relationship, rather than what actually is important. I mean, I do think that because we have so much choice now, it can make making a choice more difficult, like, you know, the decision paradox. But at the same time, because we have choice, we can raise our standards. But we also, if we're going to raise our standards, we have to raise our standard for ourselves. And that really is where the work lies.

Exactly. So, okay, I want to talk about online dating because this is. Because this is. Okay, this is how I met my boyfriend 3 years ago from Bumble. Highly recommend it, though. Bumble has changed, I feel, in the past three years. Before, it was like, they marketed it towards more like, I guess, like educated people. Like, it was on, like, I don't know, Elite Daily, this, that. So not everyone knew about it. And now I feel like it's just sort of turned into Tinder and just like. Like everyone's on it. So I'd love to know about, what do you recommend for setting up an online dating profile and how to look for people.

In the research on online dating, if I get it correct, you're supposed to be in pictures by yourself for the most part. Don't put pictures with if you're heterosexual opposite sex friends or if you're in same sex relationships or whatever your combination of genders are, that you should avoid putting someone who would be competent, who's exceptionally good looking in the picture. I read that the other one is to have a picture with. With an animal and an outdoors picture.

Is this for guys or for girls?

It's for both.

Okay.

There's a lot of data on it. It's really an interesting mirror. Selfies was like actually a big no, no that you. I mean that should be just. I used to say that if you selfies are a. No, no, take a picture. Like don't swipe. Yes. Selfies are awful.

Oh, I thought selfies are good because you get your good angles.

Yeah. Maybe that's the point is they. People think that people are hiding angles, you know?

Right.

So in online dating, it's always about being like, you know, you got to be a bit, a little bit witty. You got to be a little snappy with it. You gotta have something interesting to say. You can't ask. Typical. You know, when people start the conversation, they're like, hi. You know, I remember when I was online dating using Tinder and Bumblebee because with Bumble, the woman has to comment first.

Yeah.

And I always used to get like, you know, at Tinder, you'd hear people say, come up with something more creative than hi. That's what women would always say. And then when I got on the Bumble, every, almost every woman would start a conversation with like, hi.

I said the same thing. Hi, what's up? That was my opener.

But when men were starting the conversation, they needed to be more creative.

Right. Because you guys are used to pickup lines. Like for us it's like, hey. Like it would seem so corny. I feel like, like if I'm like, hey, babe, what's your sign?

You know, that's true. That's true. I think a really good way to do it is to pick something out of a picture and something that you wouldn't normally notice and ask them about it. That's a great way because it shows you're paying attention to something specific and you're inquisitive and you're asking something about something that someone else would not have started a conversation by. So you've already separated yourself from the group.

So I think for girls, at least I can speak for myself. This hard to get thing is so implanted in our heads that I feel like if were to like go through his picture and, like, be like, oh, I noticed that you da, da, da. Like, I would seem super desperate.

Yeah. There is something interesting about, you know, keeping the chase. And from an evolutionary perspective, that is important. You know, we want to seem like we have lots of options and we want to. But, you know, it's like when you read, you know, the book why Women Love Bitches and pick up artist books, what they do is they teach you a skill set that allows you to learn how to appear as though you have high self worth, which is ultimately what attracts us to people, is that they don't need us. That they're, you know, that they're available, but they're not so available that anyone can have them, you know?

Exactly. I remember reading why Men Love Bitches. I was probably in ninth grade or something, and it was really helpful for me, it definitely was a game changer back then. I was like, telling all my friends they should read it. But then later on, you know, when I'm in my mid-20s, realized just how, like, messed up I was and the fact that every time I was interested in a guy, I thought I should ignore him as much as possible. And then it's like, okay, you're just going to attract the people who are, like, turned on by a girl ignoring them and are just, are like, going for you as a chase. And that's what ended up, like, happening, you know, And I was just like, I had to really rewire of, like, if you like someone, you want to talk to them, it's okay to talk to them.

Yeah. That you can actually initiate conversations.

Right. But then actually the books are all like, oh, well, only like an easy, desperate girl does that, you know?

Well, yeah, too. And think about the conundrum that men are in because they're the ones who are always expected to initiate. Right. You know, And I think you see a shift when, you know, I remember listening to Alison Armstrong, who's hilarious. She has a great audible workshop called In Sync with the Opposite Sex. She talks about how, like, when women are overtly aggressive in pursuit, that the hunter can't hunt the hunter. You know, this idea that if we're too aggressive, then we've taken away our traditional roles.

And to a degree, it's true with the, like, polarity and how, like, you on it, like, I feel like guys are like, oh, like, why doesn't a girl just start a conversation? Why does a girl like this? But then when she does it, they're like, oh, she was desperate. And then we're like, what do we do? You know?

Yeah. You know, it's kind of like we're all wanting things to be different but we're not necessarily changing the way it works.

And the same thing goes backwards. I remember after I ended things with my ex who was very alpha male, the best, and I was like, I want a spiritual, open hearted man, a God, man, warrior, that type of guy. And I would find them, you just throw a tennis ball here in LA and you find one and then they would want to talk about their feelings all the time and like just staring each other's eyes. And I was like so turned off because for me I felt like now suddenly I was the guy in the relationship and they wanted to like, you know, talk about everything. And I felt like you're being distant, blah, blah. I was like, leave me alone, you know, so it was like what I wanted. This conscious man I like also couldn't handle. But maybe that was like too, too conscious.

Yeah. You know what I think it is because I really do, I really understand what you're saying is that when emotion on either male or fema, but I would say it's more when a male does it, it comes across in an unassertive sort of confident way. If it has this little edge of neediness, then all of a sudden it becomes a repellent to females especially. But I think both people experience this, you know, like when a woman's emotions are not, when they're loose, when they're not mature. And that really does feel like when we haven't done the work. And I think when we're also bypassing, you know, we're too much into the spiritual woo woo stuff and we're not really connected.

Totally, totally. And that's an important thing for people to discuss because it just turns into like, oh, I see you, I hear you. It's all words. But when it comes down to like, what is the foundation of this relationship? There's no core substance.

Yeah, we want to be led, we want to be connected, we want to be, you know, we want that tension to still exist. There still needs to be tension, but not an abusive or an unhealthy tension, but a tension that is like we're both individuals and we both choose each other but we're not going to lose ourselves in this, you know. And I think that's just a really important aspect of relationship is like, how do I hold on to who I am and maintain a sense of freedom and be in this relationship?

That's a good one. And the question that I want to ask you is. So for people who are in partnerships, let's say one of them is going on a moral, spiritual, personal development path, and the other one is not. And, you know, they come back and they're like, oh, my God, in my meditation, I saw this. Or like, I went to this workshop and I learned about that, and the other partner is like, oh, cool. But they feel like they can't talk about that part of their lives. Would you suggest that they find someone who is totally on that path or you don't both need to be on that path.

I mean, that's. It depends, you know, if you still feel connection with your partner and you still really want. Because I think a spiritual path has. It's important for all of us to have a spiritual connection, you know, a sense of purpose connected to something that's greater than us. And when you're in a relationship and you're growing, if you have to repress that growth, it can get in the way of the growth of the relationship. You know, like, if you feel like you have to hide who you are or walk on eggshells, then you're not going to feel very welcome in your relationship. And maybe part of our growth is having the conversations that are very difficult about that subject. And at the same time, sometimes our growth is leading, you know, too. And that's part of that pathway. Because I think the challenge is that we often choose partnership from a much less aware space. Right. And then all of a sudden you're in a relationship and you're like, wait, I picked this when I had different values and I wanted different things from relationship. Can this relationship change? Or you wake up to a relationship that's just not connected, and all of a sudden you're really in a conundrum, aren't you?

Totally. Totally. Yes. Yeah. Because we are changing so rapidly, and it's like the person that you know, and it goes for both ways. They also might have felt like, this is what happened to me. It was like I was like, oh, my God, this person, my ex, is not as spiritual as me, but also he's probably like, she's so weird now. You know, she's also changed so much. So it's like you end up becoming two different people in the relationship that you really have to revisit. Like, okay, do we just love each other because we're used to each other? Or. Or if I were to meet this person today, would I still choose them?

Yeah, that is such a great question. Also, knowing that your relationship agreements have likely shifted a lot, you Know when you're in relationship with anyone, not just romantic, both of you actually validate each other's desire to be however you are. You know, like, we have agreements. Like, you're gonna be a certain way, I'm gonna laugh at your jokes. My laughing at your jokes makes, you know you're funny. You know, like, we have different ways of being. If we're both smokers and one of us quit smoking now, now, your mirror of me is now challenging.

Totally.

Yeah. So if you're in relationship and you don't talk about a lot of stuff, you'd stay away from the spiritual subject. And then all of a sudden one of the partners really starts to get into that stuff and starts to really embrace it. Then all of a sudden we have a mismatch in terms of what's relevant and our identities are starting to be challenged. And often for the person who's being outgrown in a sense, sense, it doesn't mean they can't catch up. It's that often we'll push them away or reject them because they might be evidence of how we used to be as where we can invite them to show up and grow with us. They're just going to at first be a little far behind, a little further behind. But I would say don't wait too long, you know, to make that invitation to have that conversation, to really allow them the opportunity to process, like, and also give them the choice, you know, say, like, is this something that's important to you? How do you think we can connect more? You know, our interests are dissimilar now. What ways do you love connecting? When do you feel most connected to me? And those are really important questions to ask ourselves about moments with them. And that way we can start to connect back to the places and to our partners if we want to. If. If that is a desire and really move that relationship forward. Because. Because as they start to feel more validated and more connected, they might open up to this new version of us, if that makes sense.

Absolutely, yes. And also, like, someone else's spiritual practice may not look like a quote unquote spiritual practice for them. That could be like, my boyfriend produces music. Like, that is his spiritual practice. When he is in his studio making music, that's when he feels connected to source. But how can I say, oh, you don't want to come to Kundalini Yoga with me? That's just not how he connects. Connects. So it's important for us to see. And you know, especially with men, it's just. It can look really different. It could be when they're building things. It could be when they're even playing a sport. That could be their practice.

Yes. I love what you said about them being different formats, because sometimes as we're learning this new part of us and we're starting to express it because they don't want to do it the same way. Maybe a part of our new vulnerability feels rejected. And so what can happen is that can have us withdraw because we feel like, hey, I just showed them this tender new piece of me. But because they don't echo the exact same thing, then I'm now feeling rejected internally, too.

Yes. And I feel like, you know, in everyone who's in a relationship and in a spiritual path, there's this, like, almost, like, underlying, like, I don't know what it is. Like, this, like, tug that. It's like, okay, if I'm going to do something that's really going to amp up my, like, consciousness, let's say I'm going to sit in an ayahuasca ceremony or something like that, I feel like both partners need to do it together to, like, stay on that same level. Because if I'm suddenly, like, drinking ayahuasca and having this crazy experience and the other person's not, that could create a really big separation. Have you ever had this experience with any of your clients?

Yeah. Where some went down a deeply psychedelic path and the others didn't. And that was a. You know, they expressed their lack of the amount of use, and that wasn't an original agreement in their relationship. You know, there's a sort of excessive amount of drug exploration. And the other partner wasn't. Didn't want to stop and was on this path and said. And so they, you know, they separate spaces, and that's. That happens with people.

Yep, totally.

And it's. It's interesting because we get into those spaces of spiritual growth. And I know for me, when I first started down the path of spirituality, I really was quite extreme at first because I was so excited to be connected to this part. I'd allowed to just be asleep that I didn't know what I was missing. So I was so excited to convince everyone else to see the world the way I saw it. And then I started to realize that I was probably looking really crazy to my friends and also that, you know, to the ones who weren't on the same path. And also that I sort of rebounded back, you know, and came back a little. I don't want to say to reality, but you sort of really overtly pursue it, and then you come back to, I think, a more grounded, integrative approach.

Totally. Yes. I mean, I was totally there, like, at the beginning. Like, I felt like I needed to, like, dress spiritual and, like, do all of the things. I had this, like, app that would, like, remind me to, like, meditate throughout the day. And then you realize that it doesn't have to look that way. So sometimes your partner may go through that, sometimes you may be going through that. And I see partners that, like, they're two totally different people and it works. And others that are, like, the same person and it works.

Yeah. I think really, you know, it's all about how you match up and what you guys decide to create together. You can have two separate individuals, and the relationship is separate from the individuals. You know, in that way, it's this separate container that you can decide what is the container going to look like, what are the agreements? And if you have red flags and things that are not, you know, non negotiables, you need to stand in those truths, because staying in a relationship and not honoring a non negotiable or red flag is just going to hurt you in the long run.

So you've talked about these agreements. So do you recommend that you actually, like, sit down and write down some agreements? And at what point in the relationship would you do that?

I think it's important to do it as soon as you feel that it's okay. Now, I think the right word, okay, might be the wrong one, because you might might be scared that's likely to have that conversation, but it's so constructive because if you don't, you already have relational agreements, and they're passive assumptions, and they're usually culturally, socially based. And so if you don't take charge of them. Let me give you an example. It's like, I'm sure you've probably heard someone say, I never want to get married.

Right?

Right. And that's because whatever their definition of the word marriage is, is not realistic. It's probably packed with hurt. They probably, you know, saw parents get divorced, saw friends get divorced. There's probably a lot of pain associated with the word marriage. And the word marriage was probably under the constructs of how their parents had a relationship in marriage. Right.

Mm.

And so whenever anyone says that to me, I just say, redefine the word, like, find what marriage means to you. Find what? And the same is true with relationship. If you said to me, what is we use the word relationship? And I asked you what a relationship is. And you ask me, we'll likely have different things within the container of the word relationship.

Right.

Like what it means to us. And so words are always agreed upon, definitions. And it's so important that when you say, do you want to enter a relationship with me? What are you creating? And most people don't have that conversation. They just are like, okay, so we're gonna, like, be in this relationship. And we've seen people, myself included, get burned in that sense because we're not clear about the agreements. Like, you know, I. You know, I want to explore this deeper, and because of that, I don't want to see other people or be, you know, sexually open to anyone else. But instead, we just assume that, and then we get hurt.

Yes. So what types of things do, like, people often put in agreements just to give some, like, inspiration for people who are like, I don't even know what I would write down.

Well, I think a really great way to get a concept of what you want to create is to start with we. Statements like, we have fun together. We go hiking together. We have great sex. We are honest and open. We share the most challenging things. We hold space for each other. And that'll get. Just by, like, sort of firing those out, you'll start to get clarity on what you want to create.

Okay, so start because, you know, we have great sex. That could look different for you. Could look different for me. So should it be, like, specific or just start kind of general and then see gets more specific over time.

Yeah, I think you can start kind of general. And at the same time, when you're in conversations with your partner, you could say, what does great sex look like for you?

And then should you actually write this down on a piece of paper and, like, sign it, like, have an agreement with each other?

I think it's a great idea having relational agreements. Like, we're going to be open. We're going to communicate the deepest parts of us. We're going to, you know, have a regular practice of going for walks or date nights or whatever. And the reason we do that is anything, I mean, in the research, anything you sign your name to, you're more likely to do. But the reason we do that is more for clarity.

Right.

Like, are we building roads in the same direction? You know, we're so afraid to ask questions like, what do you want in the future? How many kids do you want? You know, like, that's a very fearful topic for people when they're in the early dating phase.

Yeah. Because you don't want to sound like, the crazy one who's bringing it up too soon.

Yeah. I mean, on the first date, that might be a lot, but I think being able to say to someone, like, what kind of relationship do you want to create? That's a pretty, you know, what are you looking for? That's a pretty normal first date question. What are you looking for?

Right. But yeah, I mean, my first date with my boyfriend, we were like, so how many kids do you want? Like, where do you want to live? But like, I know a lot of people that they can be seeing someone for months and be afraid to even say, are you seeing other people?

Oh, yeah, that's a recipe for disaster.

So do you think that just kind of like, be the first person as soon as possible? Just be like, so, like, what do you want in the future? Do you want to get married? Do you want to have kids? Like, first date, just get that out there?

Yeah, I think. Well, I think being able to have it as a conversation, what do you see? What are you looking for? That's so important to ask. And like, where do you see, you know, do you see yourself getting married? Do you want to have kids? I don't understand why those aren't like, normal questions.

Yeah, I agree, but I think it's the implied pressure of if I'm like, if we are on a date and I'm like, so, like, do you want to get married? Do you want to have kids? Like, you don't want to sound like I'm asking you if you want to get married and have kids with me. That's what people are afraid of.

One thing. Have you ever noticed that for the right person, those questions don't scare them away?

Yeah, they're like, turned on by it.

They're like, yes, exactly.

I want all the kids.

Yeah. Great study. 37 questions that make anyone fall in love. Those are super fun questions to do, especially if you just started dating.

Where can we find them for people who are like, what are the questions?

If you Google 37 questions to make anyone fall in love, you'll find it. It's a New York Times article.

Okay.

And it has the questions. But there are things like, what did you first notice about me? Like, things like that. These, like, really connective, vulnerable questions about, I believe, challenges as a child, dreams as a child. So you really get to know someone and it might. You might even get to know things about them that you haven't known, even if you're different dating them for two years. That's ultimately, we all want to be seen Ultimately, we all want to be safe to say, what kind of relationship are you looking for? And I think when we hide those truths now, there's a way it can come out that feels pushy, Right. You know, as we're all fearing, it's like, well, I don't want to want too much, right? But have you ever noticed when you really want someone, you can't fuck it up that way? I mean, you can fuck it up if you're like, parked outside their house, you know, after the second date, or like, stuff like that, but you can't fuck it up when you're. When you're pursuing someone who wants to pursue you. It's not too much to say things like that.

Absolutely.

It's not too much to say, I had a great time.

Yeah, well, we've gotten into this, like, you know, this Tinder society where it's like, be as hard to get be like, take three days to respond to the text. And it's like these mind games.

See, dating is sorting. Use dating as a way to sort through who you want to find. And if we go to this, you know, I used to have a client who called, she had last man on earth syndrome. Then every guy she dated, she felt was like the last man on earth. Like this connection, I gotta hold this connection because this is the last one I'll ever have. And that's such a scarce mindset. Much like there's no great menopause there.

Totally.

Really, it's about starting to change the scarce mentality into, if I am me, I will find them. If I'm expressive, if I am just myself and I work on my stuff, I look for where I do have insecurities, where I am, you know, overtly pressuring. If you keep hearing certain feedback, just be really open to exploring it. Because everything relationally that becomes mirrored to us is an opportunity to grow and learn. Learn to be better connectors.

Totally. Yes. And do you think that we should have an instant attraction to the person that we should be pursuing or attraction can be built with time and you can start to think they're hot.

Well, I would think there's probably many people who are listening who've experienced like, you know, they went on a first date or they're friends with someone and they're kind of like, ah, maybe. And then all of a sudden, over time, they're like, now in the best relationships, right. So I think it can be birthed from anywhere because we might not have seen that person in that light till something happens. And all of A sudden we're like, whoa. But I do think it's very important. We talked previously about learning to manage your charge. Like learning to manage what is my wounded desires like, you know, because when we look at how we were hurt as children, we often pursue partners who are similar to the parent that hurt us the most. And it doesn't have to be, you know, we often say to women you marry your dad, and to men you marry your mom. But no, you pursue people generally who are similar to a parent that hurt you the most, the parent that you have the most healing work to do from. And so, you know, they might not be exactly like the parent, but how we emotionally are wounded by them can be. You know, like if we had a father who wasn't a great person, we might pursue a partner who doesn't listen well, who's critical, you know, and it just might be the same feeling we end up getting. And so whenever I talk to people about this, I always ask them to answer the question. What I wanted most as a child and didn't get was whatever that answer is is usually the thing that we don't get in relationships. We often are attracted to people that we don't get that from now the opposite can happen. We can choose people who give us too much of that. So if we didn't get attention, we, we might pick people who are smothering and controlling or something along those lines. So it's really about finding balance obviously between the two. But just that's a really great question to really look at how we're showing up. The other one is when I let people love me, they. And when I love people, they.

So what are. Okay, so for the first one, what I wanted most as a child and I didn't get was like, what are like the most common answers you hear.

To be a priority? To feel understood, to feel safe, to feel loved, to feel unconditionally loved, to feel like I was enough. And they'll all come back to that deeper self worth part. Like if you didn't believe that you were safe, if you didn't feel understood, the internalization, the narrative that comes from that generally is I wasn't worthy of it. So then we have an underlying narrative of I'm not worth. And so if you start to look at the choices we make, you know, because why would we date someone who treats us crappy? We have to believe that we're worthy of being treaty crappy. Because that belief is so foundational that in order to heal it, we have to begin to choose differently. And that's why we say like, you have to see it to believe it. And I'm like, no, you have to believe it first. And the belief, it's sort of synergistic, they sort of work together. You say no to that person who treats you poorly and now there's a part of you that's like, whoa, we're badass. Like, we matter.

Yes. So let's say, you know what your issue is? How do you begin to heal that?

Well, one of the things that I used personally on myself was that I would ask myself, if I was enough, what would I do? And then I had to do that thing. So that's like the level of commitment I made. It was like, if I was enough, what would do I.

So can you give an example of like when you would use that situation?

So if you're just starting to date someone or even if you're in a long term relationship, but if you're just starting to date someone and you're, you know, you're like, should I message them? Should I talk to them about this thing? And then you just go, if I was enough, what would I do? And sometimes that means not texting them and not talking about that thing. And it's just about connecting to that part. Part of like, whoa, if I was enough, I would say something here. And that's why you can use that in a long term relationship. It's like, oh, I really was hurt when that happened. If I was enough, what would I do? I'd talk about it, I'd share, you.

Know, so good, so good. It really all comes down to self worth. And self worth, I feel like, is the reason why not just in relationships, but like, I've been really studying, like, why do people not go after goals? And again, it's because they feel like it's not worth their time to achieve the goal because they're not going to make it because they're going to fail. And it comes back down to the self worth.

Totally. Like, as we do it, as we learn, as we start to uncover that the choices we make determine what we believe. And that's so quick to change. Right? Like you could just make a different food choice or an exercise choice and you've already rapidly change what you believe about yourself.

Too good, too good. Okay, so for people out there who are like, oh my God, I want to find someone, I don't want to do the online dating thing, how do you recommend they find someone? Or just like live your life and.

It will happen I think it's a bit of both. You know, you have to put yourself in the way of fate. You know, you have to get. You can't meet them from the couch if you're not online dating.

Right.

You know, and it's by doing activities that you love, going in on new adventures, putting yourself in places you wouldn't normally be, taking a different way to work, going to a different coffee shop, striking up conversations. It's really like, imagine if you started every day. Like, I'm open to miracles happening. I'm open to meeting my person soon. And that's it.

Totally. Yes.

And when you meet someone who's not your person and they don't call you or they don't text you or follow up, you just go, not my person. Amazing. Making space for my person. And you start to see it from that perspective.

Absolutely. Because I feel like in my experience, it's like when it's that right person, there's no waiting, there's no games. It's like, oh, my God, I am so into you and there's no holding back.

No, there isn't. Right. It's like this beautiful experience where you are able to be open, you're able to communicate and you really get this healing space where you begin to say, if I was enough, what would I do? And you do that thing and they hear you and all of a sudden their healing might be to hear you.

Exactly. And yeah, what I did before I met my boyfriend was I drew a picture and I wrote on a piece of paper exactly what I was looking for. And I wrote down, like, the age range, like, what are the types of things he has for work? What do we do on the weekends? Like, I wrote everything. And I was like, universe, God, Pachamam, whoever's, whoever's listening, this is the only person I want. And I don't care if I am 73 years old until I meet him. Like, this is the only person I want. And, like, really holding out the space because I feel like. And that helped me because then if I came across someone and it wasn't the person in the picture, I knew not to waste my time. Whereas other before, I would be like, oh, I don't know, who knows where, where could it go? And then it was like, clearance that there were some blatantingly obvious things that it was not what I was looking for.

Yeah, isn't it really interesting? It always works out. It always works out the way it's supposed to. I know. My partner and I, Kylie, I wrote out what I was looking for as well, and what I was willing to do to get that person.

That's good.

Like, live in my integrity, be honest. Not, you know, have. Not pursue connections that weren't the connection. Connection. And then the night I wrote her, because I met her on Instagram the night I wrote her, she had written out what she was wanting, too. Wow. And it was like a couple months after I wrote.

And she's like a coach also, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She talks about emotions and relationships, too.

Oh, my God. So beautiful. Okay, so the last question I want to ask you is something that I think a lot of us struggle with in this day and age. I struggle with it, too. And it's most Making time for your relationship. You might have someone. Things are great. You're just both so busy. What do you recommend?

Making the time to connect in whatever way you can. If that means, you know, hey, you know, what I need from you in order to feel Connected is a FaceTime call, you know, every day. Or what I need to feel connected from you is a good morning text or a good night text or both. And if you're creating a relationship, you have to be able to create it together. You know, there is some time that you need to be able to create to be together. So if you notice that you're starting to abandon what you truly want from a relationship in order to be in one where they seem to not have a lot of time, then it's important to start to communicate that. Because I think a lot of the times it's easy for very busy people to also use that as a reason to be avoiding intimacy and connection. You know, it's easy to say, I'm busy, and then not get more vulnerable and more deep in your relationship. Or where we sort of like, consistently use these socially acceptable tricks to control the depth. Because I was asking. I said that question earlier. When I let people love me, they. We use all the tricks in the world to not go past that place where we know the inevitable. Because a lot of people will say, when I let people love me, they hurt me, they leave me, they reject me, they abandon me, they physically hurt me. You know, so there can be so many different answers to that question. They're often not positive for the most part, because we live in a fear of hurt when we love. And so if we can start to understand what is our limit, what's our edge, what's the part, like, where I know I might get hurt, and so I use all my subconscious tricks in the world to avoid that depth, that's really the trick of being in relationship is beginning to see all the things that we use to avoid death.

Beautiful. Yes. And relationship truly is. I mean it's your biggest spiritual teacher and it's going to bring out all of the things that you have been hiding and that you need to bring to the surface and that, you know, we're going to choose that partner who's going to be able to make us happier than anyone else and also can piss us off more than anyone else. And that is the duality and that's what allows for the most level of growth.

Well if you thought you had it all figured out, single get in a relationship because you'll be, you'll be taught very quickly that you don't. I love that about relationship. Is it. If you're willing to sign up for a relationship that invites you to grow, you can always be on your edge. You know, you can always be loving on this part of you that is opening up past the place you last time got hurt. And, and that's beautiful because then you don't know the outcome. And if you don't know the outcome, then that means you're in new. You're in new water.

Definitely. Yes. And yeah. And they say, you know, intimacy is into me. I see you're just going deeper into yourself and that person is just your profound mirror.

Yes. My God. To be seen by another. You know, I think giving love is fairly easy. We all know how to give love. But to actually receive love, to actually stand across from someone and to actually fully let them in, that's a very rare gift.

Yeah. I mean, you know, even like me and my partner tried like okay, you massage me without me trying to massage you back. And like we just can't do it because we're so used to like, oh, if someone's touching you, you touch them. And like even that's the practice of like om. Orgasmic meditation is like one person is fully receiving and one is fully get. And it's so hard for us to receive.

Uh huh. Isn't that interesting? Because in order to receive we have to believe we're worthy of it.

Totally.

And so receiving sort of changes our beliefs too. And when we, when we accept a compliment, we're changing our beliefs.

Exactly. It's this law of reciprocity that's so deeply ingrained in our heads like from the moment that we're kids, someone does something nice to you, do something nice right back. And it's a beautiful law and it's great. But Then sometimes in, you know, in relationships it can turn one sided very easily because we're like, let me give, let me give, let me give. And it's like, how can I step back and be like, now, now, let me acknowledge my partner giving. Because especially with men, like, they actually really want to give and want to provide. But we so quickly are like, oh, no, don't do that for me. Or oh, I can, I'll do it back. And it's like, no, let them just like, you know, be that puppy who brings you home, that like, dead animal. And be like, thank you for that dead animal. It's beautiful.

Yeah. We want to have a space in your life.

Yes.

And to be important and just like women want the same, you know, to get the same back. That's why I think it's more of a human experience. But you're right, men want to have a purpose in a woman's life. My partner often just gives me jars to open, even though I know she can open them. I'm more than happy to open them because I feel like, oh, yeah, I got it. I got the jar. Doing amazing.

Totally. Yeah. My boyfriend loves taking out the trash. It's like we live in an apartment. It's like, you don't need to go outside. It's like right down the hall. And he's like, I took out the trash. I'm like, thanks. But it's so funny. Like John Gray, he was, you know, saying how, I don't know if you've heard this, I think I might have told you this in Hawaii actually. But when a man comes home, the woman should go, basically hide somewhere in the house and the man should be like, drop his bag and be like, honey, where are you? And go look for her. And to reenact this, like, choosing her again. Because evolutionary men would go out hunting and they would be gone for days or weeks and they'd come back and the woman would be afraid, like, oh my God, did he meet someone? Another village? Is he still going to choose me? So he's like, every day when you come back from work, don't say hi to the dog, don't go to the computer, drop your bag and go find your wife. And just, just that little role playing is going to bring so much attraction and polarity in your relationship.

I fully agree with that. That's cool.

Yes. Well, amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on the highest self podcast, sharing your wisdom with us, being a true example of a conscious man who, you know, is willing to speak about these things and be open hearted. It's truly a breath of fresh air. It's sad to say it's a breath of fresh air. But you are like really like spread the word, teach the other guys.

Well, I know a lot of guys who think that way, you know, who speak that way and you know, it's.

Obviously like so can you share your number with me? I will put it on the highest self podcast website and I'll have a little database. Can you please like. Because people are like where do I do online dating? And you know, sometimes these like conscious mindful meetup, it ends up being all girls or it's just weird. So we just need to do one for just cool people.

Yeah, I agree. Well that's a good idea. People just need to come to our events.

Exactly.

And just talk to each other.

Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on again and we're definitely gonna have you back.

It's always so much fun chatting with you.

Yes. Namaste. If you loved this episode and want to dive deeper into Ayurveda, be sure to check out my new Eat Feel Fresh which is now available for pre order wherever books are sold as a free gift. For pre ordering my book, I will be sending you in the mail a signed book plate as well as a beautiful tarot card I created for you. And I will be emailing you an additional 10 bonus recipes. So this book is for you if you are interested in eating Ayurvedically but want to make it more modern, more approachable. Maybe it work for today's busy day and time. I've taken the best of Ayurveda as well as ingredients from blue zones around the world. I'm talking Costa Rica, Vietnam, Japan, everywhere in between. Because I believe that Ayurveda is a guideline that can be practiced with any sort of eating. So we look at food from an Ayurvedic perspective as well as from today's modern lens. So be sure to check it out. Eat Feel Fresh, a contemporary plant based cookbook. Send your receipt over to me on my website iamsaharose.com or eat feelfresh.com and you will be able to receive all my pre order bonuses, signed book plate, bonus recipes and so much more as my gratitude and thank you for pre ordering the book. Also be sure to check out my sacred self care and Ayurvedic nutrition E course over on Dailyome.com the links to both of those are over on the podcast Show Notes. Namaste.