125: Creating Passive Income Doing What You Love with Cathy Heller

Namaste. It's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self podcast, a place where you discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. This episode is brought to you by you. Veda Yuveda is a modernized Ayurvedic supplement company that takes certain issues that we have such as mood, joints, immunity, digestion and creates these custom little packets exactly for us, infusing ancient Ayurvedic herbs with modern vitamins and minerals. I take the mood formula daily. It is great if you work a stressful job, had adrenal fatigue, ever suffer from anxiety or even depression, and it really heals you from a fundamental and holistic level. So if you want to try it out, head over to uveda y-o u v e d a.com use the code Sahara and you'll receive 30 off your first order. And they now ship to almost every country globally. So check it out. If you live internationally, they may be shipping to your country too. And they just added India guys. Also, I'd like to make my book tour announcement. I will be coming to several different cities not just to share my book, but to have a Bollywood dance party and hug each other and talk all about the doshas and relationships and business and self care and everything in between. My book launch events are are so much more than me just talking about the book, but it's really a way to create community and to have a lot of fun. So come join me October 12th in LA, October 17th in New York, November 30th in Miami and I'm going to be going to San Diego sometime in between, then head over to my website eatfeelfresh.com forward slash book. I'm going to be adding some more cities so head over there so you can stay tuned. And I'm so excited to meet you in person. This is one of those episodes that you sure are going to evolve. I am so excited to bring Kathy Heller on the podcast. So if you listen to the podcast Don't Keep youp Day Job, she is the host. I love that podcast because I mean that title is just amazing. But she's all about helping people turn their gifts into their careers. So very similar to the work that I'm doing. But mine is more on the Dharma and the Doshas and the more spiritual path and hers is just a little bit more straight up is amazing. But we go deep in this episode and she shared with us her story of being a songwriter who was trying to make it in this music industry world and then she finally got signed. I'm not going to give it all away, but basically she learned how to create a profitable business off songwriting that is not her being that singer and is actually extremely probably more popular than even if she was the singer of that song. And now she helps people take different creative businesses into their full time gig. So we talk about her journey growing up. Really touching story that she shared about, you know, her mom, the difficulties she had growing up and how she had to learn worth. And worth is a really big topic on this episode. And knowing that you are worthy of everything it is that you want and learning how to monetize creativity, it feels like those are two ends of different coins, but they're the same coin. You can monetize and create a living doing your creative pursuit. And we talk about how we talk about online programming programs and E courses and all of that. So if you're really interested in having an online business, this is an amazing episode for you to listen to. I also want to share with you that I am launching my new Abundance Mindset Masterclass which is all about shifting your mindset around money and how your unique money mindset is related to your dosha. So we talk about the three doshas, how they are with money and how you can be abundant no matter what your dosha is by changing, switching the gears and looking at money and abundance in a whole new way. And trust me guys, this work has been life changing for me over the past year. Going from being almost scared of money, scared of it's going to make me less spiritual, it's going to make me less conscious. I don't want to worry about money. Also holding onto those old money stores which we've talked about on the podcast before of oh my God, money. Money's evil. Money makes people greedy, et cetera and really having to revisit those. So I guide you through everything it is that I did to rewire my brain and reprogram myself on this Abundance Mindset Masterclass which I am so excited to share with you. So can head over to my website iamsaharrose.com you'll see it there. You can also just see the link in the bio of this episode. You can head over to the Abundance Mindset Masterclass. There's going to be a live webinar component so we are going to get started at the beginning of November and again we don't have space for everyone. I'm going to keep this a little bit of a smaller group for the webinar because I'm going to be launching another program from there just for the people who've participated in this masterclass. It's going to be a longer program that's going to help you build your online business and create money mindset positivity and all of that stuff. So you gotta do the money mindset masterclass first. So head over to my website. I'm Saharos.com, check out the Abundance mindset masterclass. You're going to love it. I have so much cool information and practices to share with you, and I know it's going to transform your life. So without further ado, let's invite Kathy Heller to the Highest Self podcast. Namaste. And welcome, Kathy, to the Highest Self podcast. It's so good to have you here.

Oh, my gosh, I love hanging out with you. It's so fun. I'm learning so much and I'm just like, I'm leaving here different than I was when I came in.

Oh, well, we just did a podcast episode on her podcast, so check that out. Don't quit your day job.

Don't. Don't keep your day job.

I always say it wrong.

Don't keep your day job with it. It's supposed to be like a fun play on words, and either people love it and get it, or people are like, I can't remember it, which is not fun.

Yeah, but I love it. And we're going to dive all into that. And the first question I would love to ask you is, what makes you your highest self?

Just two days ago, I was at one of my best friend's wedding, and it was an incredible service. And there are moments where you are reminded, you have this clarity of, like.

Who you really are and who you.

Really want to be. And I felt that sitting there at the service. And I guess what I was feeling is connected to the divine, like, connected to God, connected to the source of all things. And whenever I have those moments, I feel plugged in, you know, I feel like I am plugged into really who I'm supposed to be. And, you know, people say, like, they have a soul, but you are a soul. You have a body, but you are a soul. So it's so easy to buy into this illusion that we are these bodies and we're just sort of all, you know, in our own little world, separate from one another and separate from this incredible source of all things, this infinite oneness. But once in a while, I reconnect to that and I'm like, right, So I am. You know, it's sort of like, if God is the sun, if the divine energy that created the world, the universe, is the sun. I'm like a ray of the sun. And then I remember to just. I heard Oprah say I was at a taping of Super Soul Sessions, and this was about a year ago. And she said few years into doing her work, she interviewed Gary Zukoff, who wrote a book called the Seed of the Soul.

Love, Gary.

And she said that she read in the book, he said, our job is to understand that we're all like these little ships, and we're supposed to be pointing ourselves in the direction of the mothership and looking for, like, you know, where can I serve? How can I use whatever I've been given to serve? And so if you're constantly just pointing your little ship home, you're in the right current. And I feel like for all of us, that's within reach. But it's so easy to forget because we live in a world that is so focused on the physical and the separateness of things and really questions what is just so obvious if you really start to, like, look at the world through those lenses? So that's definitely what keeps me connected to my highest self.

That's so beautiful. And I love the book Seed of the Soul, And I think I read it because Oprah's recommendation, she said it.

Was so many times.

Yeah, it was like the book that really started her spiritual journey. And Maya Angelou as well.

Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that part.

Yeah, it's on audiobook also.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, it's so recommended. So you have an incredible podcast and mission, really, to help anyone in any type of job, creative pottery, crystals, whatever it is, monetize it and make it into a business so they can do it full time, which is incredible. My hat's off to you. So can you tell us why this journey and then how this journey?

Yeah. I feel like every single person is an original and everyone has work to do in this world. And I feel like the universe is like this incredible tapestry, and every one of us is like a thread, and every color is necessary. And I know that that's true, and the reason I know it's true is because you wouldn't be here if what you had to share, the way you can share it and only you can share it, was not absolutely significant. You wouldn't be here because God doesn't make extras. There's no reason for there to be an extra.

And I love that God doesn't create extras.

He does. He doesn't. And you can see that in identical twins. My daughter's best friends are twins and they are identical, except their fingerprints are not the same. So what's the evolutionary need for that? Why do two people need to have different fingerprints? Why? So it's an indicator that you do have a different imprint. You have something separate to do. Even if you look exactly like this other person, even if you're raised by the same parents, your work is not the same. That's why you're here. There is a significant reason for you to do it the way you're gonna do it. And people will say, well, there's other people already doing that. There's other people already painting, there's other people already making soap, there's other people already making pie shops. So why do I need to do that? There's no room. If it's in you, if that wanting, if that yearning is in you, it wouldn't be in you if you weren't gonna be able to figure out a way to serve the world somehow in some way. Now you might initially be drawn to it in one way, but if you go in and you dive in, eventually you're going to be led to where you can serve the most. And so all of it is calling you for a reason. And so I really fundamentally believe that the opposite of depression, it's not happiness, it's purpose. So when I was growing up, my parents had a very typical like 80s like life in the sense that they weren't thinking about consciousness, they weren't necessarily reading those kinds of books or going to yoga. Their marriage was not great. They eventually got divorced. Like a lot of my friends, a lot of the baby boomers wound up breaking up. They weren't really thinking a lot about what really made them feel alive and that they were living their highest self. And I watched them really struggle. And my mom struggled with depression, my mom struggled with being suicidal. My dad had affairs. He was looking and seeking and wanting this happiness from somebody else, from somewhere else outside of, from inside of himself. And it caused a lot of destruction and pain. And I was, my parents therapist growing up. They used to sit me down and ask me questions. And I felt like that made me.

I was too.

So they literally were like one day like, what should we call you? And I just made up a name. I was like, call me Dr. Brattle. I don't know why. Maybe I'd seen it somewhere. I was only like 5 years old. And so they say, Dr. Brattle, we have a session. And I would sit with them and I got praised for this, and I thought that this meant that I was really, really smart. And instead I was having tremendous anxiety because I very aware of everything that was going on that I shouldn't have known about, from financial issues, sex issues in laws issues, and everything in between. And then eventually my parents broke up and my mom really fell apart. And she really looked to me to keep her on the planet. And I used to bring her flowers and read her poems and write her poems and sit by her bed and try to get her to stay alive and try to feed her while she was really, really floating into an abyss of anorexia and not wanting to, you know, sustain her life. It was really, really, really hard and scary. One day I turned to her and I said, you know, what about me? Like, I know that you're feeling like you're out of, you know, sort of sand and you can't keep going, but what about me? And she said, you're not enough. She said, I can't live for you, you know, and everyone struggles that. Like, you know, am I enough? And she said that to me. And I.

How old were you?

I was like 14. And it's a really hard time to be in your own skin at 14. So that was really hard. And had she not even said it, it was still such a free fall for me because I didn't have my parents there, and I hadn't had them around for a long time, really emotionally. And I realized that my mom didn't have a sense of purpose. And I realized that the opposite of her depression wasn't anything that I could say. And it wasn't any kind of, like, experience or event that would make her happy. Nothing that would make her happy would do it. She had to find a reason to wake up every day. And she wasn't even feeling that, being a parent right then in there. She wasn't even connected to feeling needed or purposeful in that. And I thought, I think this is off. And I started to seek an answer. And we didn't grow up in my house thinking and talking about spirituality or God or consciousness or anything like that. I grew up Jewish, but it was a very secular sort of life, and I didn't know anything about anything. And when I got to college, I barely graduated from high school. And literally my homeroom teacher did me a favor and lied and said that I got a different grade than I got. And I got out of high school through the skin of my teeth. And I barely got into any college and I was able to go on Academic probation to a state school. And I just went and I decided, like, I could barely see straight. So I was like, you know what? If I'm gonna be here, I wanna study meaning and purpose.

Were you just depressed at that time?

It wasn't even. Like it was beyond that. It was just. I was numb. It's like I was just in a place of feeling. I just wanted to feel something, you know, I wanted someone to make me feel something and like I mattered or like we were connected or there was something going on that was a reason to feel. And so I started taking religion classes, and I was like, I want to study Buddhism, and I wanna study Sikhism and Jainism and Taoism. And I wanted to learn, feel that there's a spark and there's a reason. And I started taking all kinds of classes, and I became a religion major. And I wound up taking a trip to Jerusalem, which I didn't know I would ever do. And I thought I would stay there for a few weeks. And something was happening. I was walking through the desert one day, and I just was crying. All these tears just kept coming out. And I just felt there was something very big that I knew was there. And I just wanted to go home so badly. I just wanted to go home. And I could feel that home was a local call. And I felt something that was going on. I couldn't even put words to it. And it makes me cry thinking about what that felt like. That hug, it was just there. And I started to say, you know what? I think I'm going to stay here. And so I stayed in Jerusalem for almost three years. And I thought about moving there and staying there for the rest of my life. I felt like in the back of the math book, there are the answers to the odd problems. And I felt like someone had just, like, shown me the answers, and I was like, oh, my gosh. And then I thought, okay, but I don't want to just, like, sit here on top of a mountain and meditate for the rest of my life. I want to take whatever it is that I'm soaking in, and I want to just make sure that everybody knows this. And so similar to you, I just felt like I was on this mission, like a quest to take what I was learning and put it into words that people could hear it and help them know this one fundamental thing, which is what we started with, which is that you are an original and you're here to do something that only you can do. And you are so loved and you don't have to earn that. It's already right there. You just kind of, like, open up to it. And you have so much wisdom and wholeness and inherent, like, incredible depth to share. And your perspective matters so much. And I just wanted people to know that. And at the time, I was a songwriter. I was always a songwriter. That was how I sort of got through life. That was my healing. When things were hard for me, I would go in my room and I would write music and I would sing into a tape recorder as a child. And I always thought, one day I'm going to get out of here and everyone's going to hear me and I'm going to be heard, because I wanted to be heard so much. And so leaving Israel, I remember thinking, this feels so out of alignment with everything I'm feeling, that I have this need to be heard. But I still was wrestling with that. And at the same time, I wanted serve. So it was a mix of. I still felt this need for validation. I wanted people to hear me, and I wanted to write this music. And that's what I said earlier, is, like, you start with one thing, and then eventually you just get led to exactly where you need to be. And so the door that you're opening, it's going to be the right door, even if it's messy. Life can be in pencil, and the clarity comes from the doing. And so you go and you do, and you do, and you get led. So I was like, I have this need, for some reason, I don't know why I have this need to write music. I really want to write music. And so I left and I came to Los Angeles and I was writing music, and I wanted to get a record deal because that was the only way I thought a person could make a living writing music. And so this is one thing we talk about a lot on the podcast, where there's so much between where you are and Beyonce, there's so much between where you are and Deepak Chopra. There's so much between where you are and Michael Jordan, between where you are and Martha Stewart. There are so many little places in between. But I didn't know any of that, and it wasn't modeled for me. So I just thought, I'm just gonna try to do that thing, which is get a record deal, tour the world. And so I worked really hard, write music and reverse engineer, like you said. Okay, so if I want to have a record out, what would I need to do? Okay, so I would need to write music. Okay, who would I need to get it to? I would need to get it to the A and R people at these labels. Okay, who would know those people? Okay, what songs would I write? Okay, who would produce those songs which would lead me back to this moment? I need to go write a song and get it to this producer and produce it and then get it to this person. So I just did that loop many times until I finally did get a record deal. And I was signed to Interscope, and I was sitting with Ron Fair, who was my producer, and we were sitting at Sunset Sounds during the Lady Gaga recording session because she was signed there and she was recording Paparazzi. And it was this incredible moment. I was sitting there, I had my, like, True Religion jeans on and my wedges, and my hair was all done, and I was the girl. I was, like, 24 years old with this record deal, and this was my moment. And yet something inside of me felt like I was gonna get found out. You know, they were gonna find out that I wasn't this girl who really liked wearing these jeans and these high heels. That I actually had this very rich, like, spiritual inner world, and that there was something about me that was so much bigger than this. And I thought, one day I'm gonna be sitting at the cool table in the lunchroom, and everyone's gonna find out that there's so much about me that doesn't fit into this very physical kind of world. And anyway, I was sitting with Ron Fair, and he turned to me and he said, you know, Kathy, you're a really good songwriter, and you wouldn't be here if you weren't. We get so many demos, missions, and, you know, we're excited about working with you. And he said, but he said, when I first moved to la, he said I wanted to be a songwriter. And he said, I sat down with Bill Conti, who was doing the music for Rocky. He looked at me and he said, you know, Ron, you're a good songwriter. You're an amazing producer. And he said, I'm just telling you, he said, you're a good songwriter. But there's something else he said. When we sat with you at that meeting, we signed you, and there's something about what you say and there's something about how you say it that I think comes through in your music, but there's something else there. So he's like, I just wonder, you know, like, what's going to happen with you, for real. It was an interesting conversation. And about three months later, I was driving down the street and Jimmy Ivan called me and said, we're not going to release your record. We're not sure it's going to sell. It's very sweet, but we're not sure if it's like, edgy enough and hard enough and pop enough. I felt the same thing, but I was really upset and so I was crying and I was like, well, I guess that's it because I went to see the wizard of Oz and I guess I can't get home. So I guess I'm going to go have to have. Have a completely different kind of job. I can't be in music because there's no other way. So I guess I'll have to go work at a desk somewhere and I guess I'll have to settle. And I guess that'll be it for me. And so I thought about going back to school. I thought about working in a floral design space because I liked flowers. I thought about getting a real estate license and I did. I worked in a preacher.

I never got the license, though.

It was too hard. And I worked at this place in Brentwood selling commercial real estate and, like, bringing people to see these, like, $200 million buildings. And, like, I did so many things. And two years later, I was driving down the street one day and I had to pull over because I was having a panic attack. And I was like, wearing a pantsuit, driving a Mercedes, and I started crying and I was like, this is not me. And I know that I'm. I'm here to do something else. And I just wish I knew what it was. And I just wish I was successful doing that thing. And I said to myself, okay, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to get messy and I'm going to figure something out. And I thought, okay, well, I can't quit just yet because I need to have money in the bank, but I'm going to really start to make this a priority. And I started to look into how else could I write music, how else could I do my music again? Going back to the music. And so the next week. Because it's. What you seek is seeking you. You find answers when you start to look for questions. And questions help you be really creative. And so I saw an article in Billboard magazine about all of these indie artists who were licensing their songs to TV shows like Grey's Anatomy and One Tree Hill, which was on at the. And I thought, oh, I never thought about licensing my music. And I had all this music, and so I thought maybe I should think about that. And so I did the same reverse Engineering. Okay, what shows would I want to license my songs to? Okay, who's the person choosing the music? Okay, what kind of song would I send? Okay, so let me watch the episode and see what these shows sort of messages are and what songs might fit this show versus this show. And oh, there's also songs in Old Navy commercials and Gap commercials and Tropicana and Apple commercials for iPad. I'm like, maybe I should license the song to an ad agency. Maybe that would be good. And then I started realizing that ad agencies would pay you a lot of money for your music for McDonald's commercials. And so I did that reverse engineering loop. And this time it was amazing because I didn't have to have the sort of adoration of a record label. I was just able to license a song and it meant just had the right to use it, they didn't own it. And so I started licensing my songs to all of those brands. And I had my songs in multiple McDonald's ads and in tons of television shows like Pretty Little Liars and Criminal Minds and Parks and Rec and the Office. And I did a song for American Airlines and I did a song for Creighton Barrel and I did a song for Keurig Coffee and I did a song for Disney and Hasbro and I started making like $250,000, like just licensing my songs. I had no other job. I was going to the studio, having fun writing music. And again, I still felt like there was more I was here to do. And sure enough, again, I told you, like, you'll get led to where you're supposed to be. So I wound up. I was featured a full page story with a big picture. I was featured in Billboard magazine, Variety magazine, LA Weekly, all of these things. And people started to email me and say, how are you doing this? This is amazing. You're pitching yourself, you're really successful. Can you pitch me to other artists? And I really hesitated. I was really resistant to it. And people just kept saying kath, like, don't be crazy, like this is a totally, you know, appropriate thing. It's another stream of income. And of course I thought, but if I take on this other business hat people won't take me seriously as an artist. And I think sometimes we're very precious about things like this is my identity and if I can't, you know, if I can't do this because I'm already this, and what will people think? In any case, I wound up just saying, I'll just say yes. And so I started a business Helping represent other artists, which only helped my own career grow because then I had more resources. I could solve even more problems. When I was calling an ad agency, I could say, you know, I have these other artists whose songs are also really easy for you to license. They're not with publishers, and they're great, and I listen to them and I can send you more things. And it just made them reach out to me more. And my own music started getting placed even more. And then from there, people started saying to me, why can't you sign my music? And I said, well, the song doesn't really fit. Why doesn't it fit? And I had a bunch of one off coffee dates with artists. And then somebody said to me, can you teach this? And I thought, I'm not a teacher again. I felt resistant to that. I don't want to be a teacher. I want to be an artist. Da da da da da da. What does that mean? And then I thought, I'm just going to say yes. I keep having the same conversation over and over with artists. What if I just created a course? And I didn't know what I would do? So first I did it live. I rented a theater in Los Angeles, and I would sell the seats for like 75 bucks. And I did a bunch of those workshops just very specifically helping people write music for television and ads. And that wound up doing pretty well. And then a friend of mine said, I don't live where you are, but I really want to learn from you. Can you teach an online course? And I was like, I don't know what that is. And that seems really skeevy to me. And there's something about it. Again, I was resistant to it. And then I thought, why don't I just do this? What does it matter what words people associate with it? Now I'm doing a funnel, whatever. And so I did this online class called six figure songwriting, how to license your music to film and tv. And that class made, I think, its first year. It made like, you know, $300,000. The second year, it made, like $600,000. It was like, crazy. And while I was doing that, then I was able to help those artists.

What was the price point?

It was $1,000 for a year, and then it grew to be a $2,000 price.

Was it all automated or also.

No, I was live. It was automated in terms of there were things that you can. Homework to do and things to look at and read and videos to watch. But then once a month, I was coming on live, and then I had somebody who was a TA who would do office hours and answer questions. So that turned into a big business. And then one of the students in my class said, you're so inspiring. And. And most of what you're teaching, like, 80% of it is really applicable to anybody's profession or especially people who are creative and who want to do their thing. So about. I don't know, it's been like, 20 months. I started a podcast called don't keep your day job, like, how to do the work you really want to do. And the podcast grew, and, you know, we just were hitting, like, 3 million downloads. And I got a book deal and I started speaking. I just spoke at Chris Guillebeau's world domination summit to about a thousand people. And I'm doing a lot of speaking. I'm speaking at the upfronts for podcasting in September instead of Ira Glass spoke last year. And I'm. I mean, it's just. It's very, very, very fun and very cool. And it only keeps, like, proving the points that I make on this podcast, which is you're going to be led to where you're supposed to be. And just, like, when I listen to your story, you don't have to have, you know, MD next to your name or, you know, PhD next to your name or have have this many followers. Like, if you are meant to do something and you have a perspective and you're courageous enough to do and just keep doing, you're gonna find your tribe. So, you know, that's my long story of, like, kind of how it all came together. And. And I'm very passionate about helping people do all this.

Oh, my God, I loved it. I was, like, gripping on my suit, like, oh, my God. Oh, my God.

That's how I felt with you.

It's so interesting. Well, my fiance was. Works in the music industry, and he does a lot of, like, A and R stuff, and he owns a management company. So I, like, I knew nothing about that world before, and now I see every day he gets so many emails from people, hey, will you listen to my song? This, that? And he always gives, like, people feedback and stuff, but I see it's like, it's so specific. And they're like, they're looking for a specific person, and then you may fit that person they're looking for, but it has nothing to do with you.

That's right.

You know, and so. So for so many people who want to be that, like, public face or the real, like, musician, which you had the opportunity to do, but your intuition said no, because your intuition knew I'm going to be going down this path, that it's not geared about me and what I want to do and what my message is. It's about how well can you fit into our box? And when you try to get out of our box, we're going to either lock you down or you're going to have a Britney Spears shave your head off moment.

That's so it. And actually, even as you said it, I'm like, that is exactly how I felt like at the. At the time. I felt like that moment when you're, like, making a deal with the devil, selling your soul. Like, I felt like, but this is what you want. This is what I want. And I'm so lucky in a way that I got dropped from the label because I knew I couldn't catch my breath. Like, I knew I was about to just become a person who was just trying to please everybody else. And instead, I mean, I didn't even know what a podcast was then. I didn't know what a podcast was four or five years ago, probably. You know, it's amazing.

Yeah, no one did. You got on there early, too, which is amazing. And I think.

I think. I don't know. I feel like I was late to the party in some ways.

But, no, I mean, I feel like podcasting is kind of just really getting its big wave, so. Even doing it one year ago. Yeah, but that's. I think that really helps of just the fearlessness and the going for. And obviously, your voice. Voice is your superpower, Whether it's through singing or through speaking, it's your voice. And, oh, my God, again, there's so much that we could dissect in there. What I would love to talk about, there's so much. I'm like, where do we get started here?

I felt with you.

Okay, so what I'd love to talk about is how did you figure out how to create these online programs? So a lot of people are like, yeah, I have something to teach, but I know nothing about creating programs. Like, how did you. You figure that out? Did you do business coaching? Like, what did you do?

No. And I love this question because you and I are similar in the sense that we have so much conviction around the why we do things. But I also love the business part of it so much. It's fun for me. Like, some people play Sudoku. I love business. It's fun. And so I love talking about it and, like, the nitty gritty details also, because I want people to start doing it, because I. I'm fascinated. I'm fascinated by actually how effortless and easy it is to create incredible income, providing value and connecting with other souls and giving to them and reaching them. It's unbelievable. I just did a live event for my online course, and I rented a theater in la and we had people fly in from Australia. Three different people from Australia who didn't know each other from different parts of Australia, New Zealand, Chile, all over the states, Vancouver. And this room was so packed with energy. And I was like, this is what.

Are you still writing your music? Music program is. Was it for that or for.

I do a couple online programs now, but that was for my music program, which is still going. And then I also. Now I have a course on how to start a podcast called Everyone Can Podcast, which I love because there's so many great people who have great ideas, and I'm wanting to encourage them. But, yeah, those are the two things that I. I've been teaching. But this is how I did it. So how I do everything very similar to you, because I just spent some time having you on my podcast, and I got to hear a little bit of how you think I just do stuff. So instead of talking about it, I figure the very, very best way for me to learn more about this is to do it and to be messy. How am I going to actually learn how to drive the car unless I'm sitting behind the wheel, turning it and going, oh, that's how much force I need when I'm making the left turn. Okay. That's how much force you need when you're actually braking. Like, you have to do it. It's like talking to your best friend when you're in sixth grade. How do you French kiss someone? She's, like, trying to show you in, like. Like, it's a disaster until you just do it. And you know exactly what to do. It's like being a mom, you know, or anything. So I just do stuff. And so how I built this was. I understood through. I just spend a little time sometimes researching things. And I started to understand that, okay, if I want someone to buy into whatever I'm selling, I have to give them a taste of that. So I thought, okay, so the first thing I need and I was, this is the other thing I have going for me. I'm super naive. So I'll think to myself in May. Which is when I first had the idea for an online course. Okay, it's May. I was pregnant with my daughter. I was like, she's due in September. So if I'm gonna do a course, I'll launch it in August. It's May. From May to June, I'll create the course. Then in June, I'll start to put out some free content. And then I'll open the cart in the middle of July, and I'll close it in the middle of of August. And then I'll start having it all ready by the time she's born. And that naivete serves me really well because it just lets me do stuff. It allows me to be imperfect and not overthink. And I have this idea, like, it's gonna work out. You know what I mean? It's funny that I do, but I do. So that's what I did. I had never done a webinar before. I had never released anything. I didn't have an email list. I was at zero. So then I thought, okay, this is overwhelming. It's like learning Chinese. But I'm just gonna sit down with a pencil and a piece of paper, and I'm gonna write down all the things that I need. So I started to look into this and reverse engineer this. Okay, so I'm gonna do a webinar. What do I need? Okay, I need a software. Okay, if I'm gonna do a webinar and I have the software, who do I send the link to? Oh, I guess I need an email list to send this link to. Oh, but I don't have one. Oh, so how do I get an email list? Oh, so I need to create something. What do I buy? There's infusionsoft. There's mailchimp. Which one do I need? Oh, my gosh, these are expensive. Oh, I have to create a funnel. Oh, my God, that's so scary and hard. What do I do? Should I. Someone. There must be someone who knows how to build a funnel. Okay, that was scary. I didn't even know who to ask about that. I remember reaching out to a cousin of mine who's in pr. He's like, I don't even know what a funnel is. And I'm like, oh, that's a whole different thing. How do I figure that out? So I go into my. Maybe I can go onto Facebook. Maybe somebody knows what a funnel is. So I hire somebody to help me understand what a funnel is. And then she tells me, you need something valuable to put through the funnel. Something that's informative. Oh, I have to write something. Okay, so I write this PDF on. On the 7 things you need to know to license your music and then she tells me, you need to do a Facebook ad. And I go, a Facebook ad? What does that mean? And she's like, yeah, so you need to direct this to people who are already interested in music licensing. Okay, great. Never did that before. So I play with the Facebook ad manager and then she says, oh, you need to create a video. So instead of overthinking that, I just went on to my iPhone and did a one minute video. Hey, this is Kathy Heller. I'm going to be doing a webinar on how to license your music to film a tv. And it's going to be on this date. And if you want, you can download this PDF and then you would be joining my email list and then I'll be sending you an email about the webinar. So I started that in May, at the end of May, while I was creating the course. And I knew that the webinar would be in July, and I started building the list and giving away this free content.

So all just through the ads?

Yeah. By the time July rolled around, I had about 1400 people on the email list. And I mean, now I look at that, I'm like, it's nothing. But at the time it was like really good. I had no sense of how good it was. And then I did a webinar and it was my first webinar ever. And I.

What did you end up using?

So I didn't even know to use slides. Like, I didn't know what to do. So I was just me talking into a camera. I was eight and a half months pregnant and I'm just like, hi, sitting in my, you know, office at the time and I spoke to people and here's the crazy thing. I'm looking at the ticker to see how many people are showing up live. And I'm starting to like, my breath starts to like, you know, be like, you know, it was hard to breathe because there were thousands. 1004 people were on the webinar out.

Of a 1400 list. That's insane.

That's crazy. And that's, by the way, never happened to me again. I'm telling you, this naivete and this sort of like, let's go and why not? And I was. And I spoke. And at the end I said, okay, the cart's open if you want to buy the class. And the class will start in a few weeks. Which I also don't do it that way now. But whatever. I did it then. That day. I remember watching people buying the class. And I remember at the End of the day I was like, wow, I just made 40 cents. $6,000. That's crazy.

And then was that first class, your thousand dollar class?

Yep. And by the end of three weeks, Ballsy.

Your first class to start.

I know. That's what I, that's what I thought classes cost. It was a 12. I mean, it's a 12 month class. So it's either $9.97 or $97 a month. So then by the end of three weeks, 185 people bought the class and I made $185,000. And I was like, that's pretty cool because I used to be like amazed if I would get, get 50 grand for a McDonald's ad or sometimes I'd get more and it was amazing. But I have to keep making a widget. I have to keep writing a song. I'd have to keep, you know, I'd go to Chicago to meet with agencies. I'd go to Minnesota to meet with agencies. It was a very, like, there was a lot of effort being put into that. Yeah. And so here it was like I was able to do that. And then the people in the class were so excited to be in it. And then it just.

And you really shut down your cart after one month.

It was like three weeks. Now if I, if I have a cart open for a course, it's five days. Days. Wow. Five days.

I think that fear comes in of like, what if people don't know about it yet? I need to keep the card open. I need to keep the card open and then people keep it open for a long time.

Yeah, I close the cart after like five days. But then I'll do another launch like every four or five, six months. Something like that.

Oh my gosh. How amazing is Kathy's story? We're gonna take a quick two minute break so I can share with you two incredible sponsors and we're gonna get right back to her story. This episode is brought to you by HelloFresh, a meal kit delivery service that shops, plans and delivers step by step recipes and pre measured ingredients so you can just cook, eat and enjoy. They have three meal plans to choose from. Classic veggie and family. You can feel really confident when cooking HelloFresh Simple Recipes because they're pictured with step by step instruction cards. Best of all, you won't have to spend all night in the kitchen because recipes take only about 30 minutes. Minutes. And you can spend less time meal planning and grocery shopping each week and get that time back to finally do what you love. I absolutely love HelloFresh and chose the veggie option. Really easy to make for a total of $60 off. That's $20 off your first three boxes. Visit hellofresh.com Sahara 60 and use the coupon code SAHARA60. Again hellofresh.com Sahara 60and use the code SAHARA60 for your discount count. So we've all been constipated before. A lot of vatas listening and we all know how horrible it feels to feel bloated and sluggish and just not like your healthiest and happiest self. And in fact the average person holds about 10 to 15 pounds of toxins in their colon, which leads to a whole host of issues later on in life. So it's really important that we naturally detoxify these toxins, which Ayurveda recommends doing every every season. So I highly recommend using an all natural tea I really like, Teemi blends. You can head over to Timi T E A M I blends.com and use coupon code Sahara for 25 off any orders above 49.99. They have a great 30 day detox program. Again, all natural products and it can really help your digestion, especially if you're feeling a little vata and balance. Balanced. Now let's get back to this episode. So at this point now, have you studied launches and how they work or you're just still kind of winging it?

I'm still kind of winging it, but I've learned a lot from doing it. So I kind of know like the first time I did a challenge, I did a 21 day challenge and now I would never do that. It's just too many days. So now I do like a, like a five day challenge or a seven day challenge.

And you said that your course was going to start a few weeks after you wouldn't do that because now you would start it immediately after the webinar.

Oh yeah, I would start, you know, you would. Enrollment would start, it would close in five days and then the class officially begins and I would set up the expectations. Hi guys. Here's what the modules are, here's what you're going to be learning and then I'll be showing up, you know, once a month live. You'll have so and so who will be doing office hours every week. And here's how it's going to go. And I do a lot to keep them accountable because you're 95%, 95% more likely to get a result if you're kept accountable. And People are not paying for information. Right. They're paying for implementation. They need you to help them actually get the result. So if you want to be a good teacher and you want to have a great course, you have to get people results. And the way to do that is to keep them accountable.

So how do you keep them accountable?

We have lots of things. I mean, one thing that we do is we've really changed the program from being just like here, we're teaching you things to we are going to listen to your work and evaluate your work. So for people writing music two or three times a month, we give them actual opportunities, things that are coming in where we need songs for Pepsi, we need the song for Nike, and we give them an opportunity to submit the song. So that keeps them really excited about it.

And sometimes the people, the students have gotten it. So we've used that for marketing too.

Yeah, we've had like 46 of our students get major licenses. Like somebody just got $80,000 for Coors Light. Somebody got a $55,000 Starbucks ad. It's really, really cool. These are artists who, they were in the jungle of like, I want to be an indie music person. How in the world would I ever make $80,000? I mean, not going to do that from touring, I mean, if you're indie without a label. So it's really been cool. Yeah. So, and now I do that with my podcasting course also. And I say things to them like, I'm going to bring people into the class to listen to your ideas. Like people from different podcasting networks, other good podcasters, you can pitch your ideas. So that keeps them sort of feeling like, like I want this person's feedback and I want this opportunity. So that keeps people accountable.

So when you had that idea for the first course and you decided it's going to be a 12 month thing and it's going to be a thousand dollars and like you really like created a school like that, that first thing, that's like a full out school. So what did that process look like of like how you were going to put together the modules and what software is it going to be on? Like all of the, those questions.

So I, I'm, I'm really, really big at screw perfect stop. Because the perfect thing actually ruins everything. So that's how I do my podcast. I remember with the first episode I recorded it eight times in my closet. And at the end I was like, I can't do this because if I do this, I will never put out a podcast every week. So What I'm going to do is I'm going to do the episode and that's it. That's it. So I'm the same with everything. So with the course, I got really overwhelmed, and I was like, oh, my gosh, I need the slides to look beautiful. I need to make sure every piece of information is in there, like, it was my magnum opus. And then I thought, no, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna brain dump. And I encourage people to do this all the time for whatever it is that you wanna create, especially if it's a course or a book, Open a Google Doc and let yourself brain dump. Editing and creating are not exactly the same process.

Oh, my God. I always say the same thing. Thing.

So make the crappy version first and give yourself permission. It's gonna be crappy. Awesome. I'm gonna do. I do this with songwriting too. And this is one thing I teach in my songwriting class, which is stay on track, be consistent creating songs. Meaning you're gonna have to get over being perfect. Like, let yourself write songs. You know, Ed Sheeran talked about how, like, if you go camping and you haven't been in this cabin in a while, and you go turn on the water and you turn it on, it doesn't come out clear water. It comes out like, sludgy brown water. And then you let it run, run. It gets clearer and clearer. So he said, as a songwriter, you have to allow yourself to just, like, let it come out, let it come out, and it gets better and better and better. You can't get to brilliant stuff if you're in need for it to be perfect. From moment one, you actually will be so overwhelmed by your own feelings of inadequacy, you will walk away. And that sucks for you and for the world. So what I try to tell myself is just put it out there. So with the course, I did a lot of brain dumping. What could I possibly, possibly teach? I did this with a podcasting class. What could I possibly teach somebody about podcasting? What could I possibly teach somebody about songwriting? Whatever my class is. And then I go back the next day and use a highlighter tool on the computer, and I'm like, okay, this section's good. I like this. Then I print everything out, and I literally take a scissor and I start cutting pieces of different papers and I put them on the wall and I start making sort of like, these all go with this chapter, These all go with this module, whatever it is I'm looking to create. If it's A book, if it's a course. And then I will create slides. And I don't really. I'm not so high tech. Like, I bought screenflow. It cost like a hundred bucks. And I opened up my Mac keynote and I record myself, you know, speaking. I have an incredible assistant, and there's so many amazing assistants. Mine went to Boston University. You know, she's 25, brilliant, you know, and you can find an assistant who's smart.

How did you find an assistant?

I found her through a friend. You know, there's a lot of stuff, smart people. And he found her just by putting up an ad on entertainmentcareers.net he was looking for someone to help him with his podcast, but there are so many smart people out there. I found another one. I have a team now of six people. I found another one of my amazing staff by going through UCLA and looking at, like, they have an internship program so you can give people credit for things. And there's so many smart, thirsty, hungry, awesome graduates who can help anyway. So you can pay somebody 25 bucks an hour to help you put things together, which can be incredibly useful. So we just put the course up there and, you know, the course now has had a couple different iterations. By the way, for everything successful that I've done, there's been eight things that completely failed. I started the podcast and one week later, I got an email from this woman who was my lit agent. She left. Left because she became a publisher. She went to Simon and Schuster, but she was my agent at the time. I got an email from her. I didn't know her. She's like, you should have a book. And we had a bidding war, and I got a book deal from macmillan two years ago. I wrote an entire book on songwriting and how to make a living as a songwriter. Wrote the book, sent it to 30 lit agents, multiple publishers. Everyone said no. Some people didn't even write back. And then other people were like, never. This will never. So that was a no. Six years ago, I had done a bunch of classes at the Mindful Awareness Research center at ucla. I took all these mindfulness classes. This was before I actually started to make really good money with licensing my music. So it wasn't six years ago. This was in, like 2007. So, my God, that's like a long time ago. But I remember thinking, mindfulness, maybe I can combine mindfulness with music. And I actually got a deal with the Jim Henson Company to create a TV show for kids called the Peaceful Place. And we all loved it. And it was beautiful. And we shot a pilot, and we went to every network, and I was all excited. And we went to PBS and Sprout and Disney Junior and Nickelodeon, and everybody said no. And I spent two years on that. So I just want to be clear. And then there have been other courses. Like, you were talking on my podcast. You were talking about how important it is to be specific. I started a course six months ago called the Creative Workroom, which was like, if you're a creative person and you want to grow your business, here's a class. It was way too broad. You know, the class still made, I think, like, $85,000, but it was.

Oh, no big deal.

It didn't feel. It just didn't feel like my zone genius. And I think being specific is really, really important.

It totally is. And I mean, what is amazing about what you're doing is you clearly have. Have this, like, educator in you. Maybe in your past life, you were like, a teacher. Like, you are very good at really creating systems to teach other people. Because it's one thing to know something, but it's something totally else to be able to teach it to other people and figure out, okay, how am I going to keep them accountable and, like, what are the systems I can set up and how am I going to do the modules and what platform am I going to use? Like, there's so many questions, especially with all the technology out there, which I'd also love to ask you about after, like, what tools you recommend, but I'd love to know. So for someone who's like, I love knitting. I love this, I love that. How am I going to turn this into, like, something that I teach and can monetize? Like, where should their process start?

Okay, so I'm obsessed with this. So my husband, every time we go out to eat and I'm talking to the waitress, he's like, oh, God, you're going to try to encourage her to, like, I do the same thing. Yeah. This is, like, across the board, Uber.

Uber driver. I'm like, what's your real driver? Yeah.

Oh, my God. He always says. He's like, wait for it. So he should be so happy, like, with what my quest for that has done for our life in any case. So here's what you do. Okay? So if you want to be knitting and you're like, I want to turn this into something that I can make a lot of money with. So you're going to do a few things. First of all, you need to start to give, right? Always be giving you need to figure out, like, what am I giving and how valuable is this? And you need to be really consistent. So I would do a few things. I would create a Facebook group and I would be talking about knitting and I would, I would commit to like 10 minutes a day in that Facebook group where I would be like, asking people questions. You want to get people engaged. I would show up there like once a week. Don't worry, you're gonna be like, there's 40 people in it. No, no, it's gonna grow.

Show up, like, do a live video.

Do a live video, like every Thursday and let people know, like, I'm gonna come in with one like, tip and I'll do a Q and A and answer your questions. One thing I would do a challenge. I would create a challenge around knitting and I would talk about being really specific about the result. You want to help them to get right with one thing. Like you were talking about my podcast about you did something around Candida, like helping people with that. So I would be really clear, like, this is a five day challenge on helping you knit, blah, blah, blah, blah. Or if it's before the holidays and you want to make a gift for so and so I would just make it specific. I would remember that in order to sell anything and have any money coming in, you need an audience. So you want to be working on growing an email list. So in order to do that, you want to know that Facebook is an incredible tool. And as much as people want to hate on it, everybody is on it. So if you hate on it, you're basically saying that the world is terrible. That's not true.

So you'd still focus on Facebook over Instagram or depending on audience?

I would do both because I use them for different things. Like Instagram, I feel like, is where I'm so vulnerable and so authentic. And I just like bare my soul in every podcast host. And I love my tribe there. Facebook, to me is an incredible place to send through valuable information, PDFs and letting people know about challenges. Because the Facebook ad manager is so brilliant. It already has the entire population of Facebook segmented. So I can find out who already took a knitting class. I can find out who subscribes to this knitting magazine, and I can show up in their feed. And because of the way the link links are right, it's just a little bit more user friendly than the swipe up feature.

Yeah. It's hard to get people to leave Instagram.

Yeah. So I find that on Facebook I can send people information and in exchange for information that's valuable, they're going to give me their email address. And so I find that using Facebook ads is really great. And I would be just really generous and create this tribe around you. And remember, this is the thing to remember. There are already people knitting. It doesn't matter. It absolutely doesn't matter. Actually, that just shows you there's a need for it. If you are passionate, if you're enthusiastic, and when you talk about this thing, you light up, people are gonna love listening to you. There's a woman named Teresa Greenway and Chris Gillebeau, who's a friend of mine, he was on my show. He has an amazing podcast, and he was talking about her, and he said she was a janitor at a motel, and she had two kids, son and daughter. She was a single mom, and her son needed some special resources. And her daughter said to her, we can't do this anym. We cannot do this. You need to make more money because he needs more resources, and we're barely, you know, just. Just above the poverty line. And she said, but I don't have any skills. I didn't go to college or whatever. And she said to her, but what can you do? And she said, mom, you know what you're really good at? You're good at making sourdough bread. And she said, so what? And she's like, what do you mean, so what? Let's just do it. Let's have you teach a class in sourdough bread. And her mom said to her, but there's so many recipes out there, it doesn't matter. What does it matter if I'm telling them? They can go onto YouTube and watch that for free. They can buy a cookbook. They don't need me. And she said, no, because you're a human being who loves sourdough bread. And there are gonna be other people who love hearing it from you, so let's do it. So she got out her iPhone and shot a class of her mom in the kitchen. They put it up on Udemy. The first year they made took home $25,000. Took home. Second year, they made like $85,000 profit. Now she has five classes. Sourdough, extreme sourdough, all of this stuff. She's making a couple hundred thousand dollars a year.

And anyone can upload a class on Udemy, right?

There's skillshare, there's Udemy. You can start putting. But my thing is, is I don't necessarily use Udemy, but not that I wouldn't. I'm not knocking it. I think it's fantastic. I was just making the point that there is room for you. Yeah, there is room for you. People feel so alone. We live in a moment in time where everybody has quote unquote friends, and there's so many friends, and people feel so alone. You go onto your Facebook, you go onto your Instagram, and things are so curated and people are not really sharing what's going on. People are like, I had the problem. Perfect salad. I have the perfect kids. We had the perfect vacation. My husband and I, we are perfect. Like, as if everyone's having sex every night. Nobody's arguing. It's such crap and it's not true. And then it makes people feel more alone, and it's really a problem. There's so many studies on it. When you go on there and you're talking about your love of vegan food, your love of Ayurveda, your love of knitting, and then you're. You. You're gonna find people who go, I know I can learn knitting from somewhere else. I just like her. I just know something about Teresa Greenway. I want to learn sourdough bread from her. There's something about I need to connect. I need that human connection. And so people like being in smaller tribes and people forget that being a facilitator and being a person who just holds space for other people, that's worth a lot to people. You know, like, if you said, I live in your neighborhood and I know you through someone, I'm just sending you an email letting you know I'm going to have a moment moms group at my house. And I'm not a therapist. I don't have a PhD. I just want to create space for moms to kind of come in here and just everyone gets five minutes in the hot seat to tell us what they're going through. I would be there in one second. Like, that is such a healing, incredibly powerful, valuable experience to me that that is enough for me to pay someone for. I have a friend who loves storytelling. She was in the Groundlings, which is an improv group where a lot of people like Will Ferrell people came from the Groundlings. She wound up not wanting to go into improv necessarily full time, but she was really good at. She said to herself, you know what? People need to get up and tell their story. So she created in her house an evening where people would drink wine and they would decide ahead of time which three friends were going to get up that night and tell their story. They had eight minutes and all they had to do was do two things. They couldn't apologize, they couldn't say, ah, you guys, this is. No, no apologizing for yourself. And you had to tell the truth. It was so cathartic. People would get up and just tell a true story about their life.

Life.

She decided to do it in a bigger space. Then she rented a theater. Then people started to come. Then she started selling the seats for like 25 bucks a pop and renting out 200 seat theaters. She was able to make thousands of dollars to do something she loved and just make space for people to just tell their story. You can turn anything you love into something that actually makes you a living so that you can do more of that and there's no shame around getting paid for it. It's all possible. I tell people, they're all, there are four ways to make a living with the thing you love. You can be a maker, a teacher, a curator, or an investigator. So if you're a maker, that's really clear. It's like, I love pottery. I'm going to make the pottery. I love songwriting. I'm going to write the songs. Okay, that's a maker.

Great.

That's one way. Second way is I want to be a curator. I love pottery, but I want to have a shop where I invite all these different potters to sell their work. Or I want to create an evening of that and I want all these different people. I want. I want to, you know, create a little co op. And I can do that with so many things, with jewelry, with paintings, so many things you can do.

Even events maybe. Would that be that?

Yeah, I mean there's. So I have a. Somebody who was on my podcast was Ben Bram who created the pentatonix. They're a acapella singing group. They won the sing off and they have two or three number one Billboard top charting albums. He loved acapella. He didn't necessarily want to be an acapella singer, but he wanted to curate acapella groups. And so that's what he does. Like he put the penny pentatonix together and then he was actually asked to work on the sing off. And then now he has a camp for kids who love to sing acapella and he's producing and making amazing money and curating acapella. Like it's whatever you want to do, you can do.

And what's the last one?

The other two are you can be a teacher, right? So like maybe you want to teach people how to be a coach. Maybe you want to teach people how to have a successful. We said knitting before. Maybe you want to teach people how to make pie. Maybe you want to teach people how to.

Whatever.

And then the last one is being an investigator. Like, there are people who spend their life just wanting to research something. Like, I don't know about you, but I'd love to travel the world and find out about different cultures. Or I'd love to do a podcast that just sort of. I don't know anything about any topic, whether it's plants or whether it's furniture or whether it's the movies or whether it's the country of Spain. But I want to investigate it. You know, Gretchen Rubin was a lawyer who, she was on our show and she was like, I want to be happier, and I don't really know how to be happy, so I want to research happiness and get paid to do it. So I'm going to write a book on how to be happier and then start a podcast on how to be happier. And that's the other piece. You don't have to be the expert. You just have to be a person who really is interested. Right. So those are some ways on how to make a living. And. But that's what I would do. I would start to put out value. I would be consistent. I would use Facebook. I would create a group. I would start putting out some free content. I would think about growing that list. And then after I had been doing some depositing and giving away free content and growing a list and building a tribe, maybe three months in, I would offer something that would be something people could pay for, whether it was just to be in a group. Like, I have a friend who just had a baby and she wanted to create a group to help moms do more self care. And she had the guts to say, like, I want to be paid to do that. And so she started by creating a group for moms and having self care and she was showing up in it. And then a few months in, she did a challenge and that got more people in it. And then she was like, you know, do you want to pay to be a part of this? It's going to be this much money every month. And also for the group. Yeah. And you can be in this group and we can just support each other and keep you accountable.

I think where a lot of people get stuck stuck is they start doing it and putting out the content, but they feel kind of slimy and weird to then ask for money for something.

Right.

So how can people kind of like get past that.

So the thing is, if your cup is empty, you can't pour anything into somebody else's cup. And we have all of this, like, yucky stuff around money. And I see money, like, it's a resource, you know, it's like the more rain that comes down, it's like. Like, more things grow, the more money that comes into your ecosystem, more things that you can do with it, you know? And if you are a person who is kind and good, you're going to use that money. That money is going to, like, help you be more generous and more kind. How many schools around the world have names on the bottom of them? Because this family donated to make this museum possible, this school possible. So I don't look at it that way. I actually look at it like the studies are in, the research has been done. When people actually want to do the work, if they pay for it, they're gonna get the result. If they don't pay for it, it's not gonna change. They're not gonna show up. So I like paying for things because when I pay someone for therapy, when I pay someone for the yoga class, when I pay someone to teach me voice or guitar, I'm gonna practice and I'm gonna show up because I'm making that investment in myself. Also, you. You pay people for commodities, right? Like, if somebody makes a candle and you want to buy it and put it on your dining room table, you pay them $18, $30, whatever it is. So why do we minimize what we have inside of ourselves that we can articulate, that we can give, that we can share? That is an incredible commodity. And if we want to be able to help more human beings with whatever that is, how can we do that if we don't get paid to do it? So then we really can't. So if you really don't want to serve a ton of people, you want to just help, like, three people, then don't get paid. Just do it as, like, your charity work, and that's fine. If you want to be able to really help other people and you want to be filled up and you want to have all this joy because you don't have to go work at this job that you don't like just to pay the bills that on your free time you can do this thing you, like, love, then you have to be doing it full time. And there's no shame around it. I feel like deep down, people have a hard time getting past this. Like, it's okay. I don't deserve it. It's okay. I don't. I don't really deserve that. You know, it's. It's very sad because if you look at your best friend, I mean, I just met you, and I want you to have the whole world. You know, it's like no one thinks about that except for you. You're the one holding that back. We live the lives we think we deserve, and we live the lives that we say, this is fine. And so we'll just have this little piece and we'll just stay over here. And that's not serving anybody anyway, because the people who will inspire you and the way you can inspire other people, if you were really skipping down the street because you're so excited that you're getting to make money to do you, to be in alignment with yourself, you're gonna inspire other people. They should put their shoulders back and start making whatever they need to make and being who they are and that it's enough. There's so much good that comes from stepping into that and stop apologizing for yourself and take your seat at the table and say, this is what it is. And what's slimy about that? Do you believe that you really have worth? Do you believe that you really can help affect somebody? So, okay, let's go. Let's, you know, let's make this happen.

You're absolutely right. It all comes down to the self worth. And every time I think about, I go into, well, why aren't they doing it? Why, why, why? I try to get into people's heads, and it always comes down to this exact reason.

And I have one other thing that I stumbled upon, which is fascinating because I hear so many people overthinking everything, and I'm like, okay, what is at the root of this overthinking? And I realized that one thing that we do, people got really good at doing this, is we like to tell ourselves that we don't want it. Because if I can tell myself that I don't want it, I'm not gonna get hurt. So I don't want it and I'm fine. So we do this thing where we lie and we go like, I'm totally fine. How's your relationship? It's fine. How's your job? It's fine. How's your health? It's fine. So that's not great. And it takes tremendous courage to say it's not fine. I really want this other thing because you know what? I might go for it and I might get my heart crushed. And that takes courage when I look at people who are successful, I think they're really courageous because they put themselves out there. It's not easy to do what you do. It's not easy. We're really vulnerable. We're, like, out there. We are saying, like, you know, I want to offer this. I want to do this. I want to create a podcast. I want to write a book. And there's a lot that you have to have courage to do. I feel like early on in our lives, we get our heartbroken, we get disappointed. We have, like, primal relationships and things. You know, we get hurt in these beginning, sort of important moments growing up. And we tell ourselves, oh, I have a really good strategy. I know what I'm gonna do if I don't want things, if I don't need anything, never getting hurt like that again. So I'm gonna tell myself a story about what I need and what I want, and I'm gonna say, well, that's. I just don't need that. I'm fine. You know, like, I have this job. I go home, I watch Netflix. I make 60 grand a year. I'm really fine. I'm great, actually. You. You need that. It's good for you. I don't need it. I'm totally fine.

So true.

So that is what I really want to do, is paint. But one day when I was, like, 8, my dad told me I'm not good. And I don't want to feel that again. So I'm not going to paint anymore. But I don't want to tell you that. I just want to tell you that I'm fine. And what I really want to do is get off this bench and throw the ball. But I know I'm not going to make that basket. So I'm just going to sit on this bench because I don't have to feel that. I won't have to feel like a failure if I sit on this bench. Except that in the end of my life, I'm going to look back and say, the only thing I regret is not getting off that bench. So we have to have the courage to be messy. And you are going to be messy. And it's not going to be perfect. It's not going to be the perfect song. It's not going to be the perfect marriage on day one. You're not going to be the perfect parent, but you're going to keep going, and you're going to get better at it, and it's the greatest adventure of a lifetime, and there is pain, and you're going to get hurt and it's okay. That's the other thing is, like, people don't think they can tolerate pain. Why don't do that? Because that would be uncomfortable. Great. So if you can't be uncomfortable, like, how would our lives be different if we.

And it's an illusion. Because trying to stay comfortable all the time is actually going to make you really uncomfortable.

Oh, sick. Terrible. I mean, what happens to water that doesn't move? It's poisonous, stagnant, gross water.

Exactly. And once that thought is in your head, you're not going to be able to let it go. You can pretend it's not there, but it's still there. And you're going to keep going back to, why didn't I paint? Why didn't I pick up that basketball, whatever it is. And yeah, and I think that's exactly a lot of people. I think it's this fear. And sometimes I do it too. Of like putting too much on your plate and being stressed out and being burnt out. Like, I remember I would say, well, I don't want to do all these things. I'm gonna be burnt out. I'm gonna be too tired. It's gonna be too much. I need to just, you know, focus on self care more. And it was my own way of playing small. It's like this like, weird kind of spiritual way of playing small.

Right, right, right. Yeah, I've had that too.

Yeah. Of just being like, oh, I don't. I don't really need it. And it's like, sometimes that's a wise decision, but sometimes that's just you trying to stay in your small bubble.

Yeah, no, I hear that too.

So one thing that whenever I'm talking to people recently with my cousin, she's amazing. She's a great decorator and designer. I'm like, why don't you become an interior designer? And her thing and a lot of people saying is, it's too late. If I get started now. There's already people who've been doing it for years. Who am I to start at the beginning?

Now, now. It's just ridiculous. What? Everybody does this. It's like, I'm too late. I'm too old. I don't have enough of this. I don't have enough of that. No one feels ready anytime. And as long as you're alive and the light is on, you're ready, you're ready to go. It's like you're alive or you're not. Right. Like one day, you know, I wish this wasn't the case, but one day people aren't here, but if you're here, so there's a reason, right? And so if there's something that you love doing, it's just as good a day as any to get started in doing it. There have been so many people who only found the thing that they wanted to do later on, which makes sense in a lot of cultures. Old age is like revered. And in our culture, you know, we sort of send those people out to pasture. But. But as you get older and you really start to stop apologizing for yourself and you grow in more and more ways in alignment with who you really are. You have so much more to teach. And I think actually if people were honest with themselves, they'd probably be changing careers a lot more often than they do. But we're so afraid of veering from this very tightly held idea of this is who I am and this is not who I am, and I'm this, but I'm not that. And what it does is it really robs us from exploring so many facets of our soul and who we really, really are. Because your soul is so much bigger than your body. Who you really are is so enormous. And so even the idea that you have to come up with it at 18 or 24 and if you haven't figured it out by then, it's like that really is not holding into account what really is going on here. So I feel like as you get older, you continue to think of things and we all should be giving ourselves the space to try things. And I see so many people who. It's their second. It's their second thing. It's their third thing. They try that and then that's when everything starts to gel. There's nowhere that people go, wait, how old are you? That's expired. That doesn't work. Like, that doesn't happen. It's the same thing with how young you are and it's the same thing with what degree you have. At the end of the day, if truth is coming out of your mouth, at the end of the day, if what you're saying is valuable to somebody else, that's a one to one like relationship that works. That's how the world works. Right? That's that Venn diagram of that. That there's a Japanese word ikigai, and it means like the combination of those three points, what you're good at, what you love to do, and what the world actually needs. It doesn't say in there, but how old are you? Need not Apply. You know, it doesn't say to you, sorry, but that's only for someone who has this education or this zip code or this skin color. None of those things. It's like, literally, when you're standing in front of this other human being, do you make something that they need? Do you say something that they need? That's the question is what I have to say. Teach, do, create, provide, helpful. So then the only question, the only question every morning is, is God, universe, however you want to say it? Where do you need me? How can I do this? How can I show up? How can I bring more beauty? How can I feed more people this pie? How can I make more of these tapestries? How. How can I serve? Where do you need me? And just keep making it, doing it.

Oh, my God, girl, I could listen to you talk all day. So good. So many good points and yes, resonating with all of that. And I think a lot of listeners who, you know and your answer is, it's like, to the same thing. It's like a lot of people, they're kind of waiting for, well, if you're old, then maybe you should go about it this way. It's like, no, it's the same exact structure, the same exact model. There's no old person path over here. It's the same thing. And it's so true that they make us feel like we need to, like, know our majors at 18 and stick to that and, like, start our job at 22. And it doesn't work. And no other country has this. It's only in the U.S. you know, other countries, they travel, they volunteer, they in Israel, they take so much time off. So we are living in a system that wasn't designed for you to go and figure out your highest self. But that doesn't make it an excuse for us not to.

Yep.

So where can listeners connect with you, listen to your podcast, do your programs, and all of that beautiful stuff?

So come find the podcast. I find that people who listen to one podcast, they don't swap that one for another one. They just listen to more podcasts. So I love that. So I'm so glad that you're on my podcast. And you. You guys can come listen to Sahara on my podcast. It's called Don't Keep youp Day Job. You can find it on Apple Podcasts. You can find it wherever you listen to podcasts. We have amazing guests on the show. We've had all these creative, incredible people like Jenna Fisher, who played Pam on the Office, and Bobby Brown, who Created an incredible makeup line and Jonathan Adler. It's a great podcast. I hope that you guys will check it out and find it inspiring. And we have a website called donkeepyourdayjob.com that shows you anything else that's going on. If I'm doing a live event, if I'm creating a challenge because you want to start a podcast, you can find that stuff there. That's really it.

Yeah, I think a lot of people listening want to start a podcast. So your program is going to be.

A really good place. That is cool. And I'm doing a whole class. It's called Everyone Can Podcast. And we've been helping people. And what's really fun is I'm able to bring people the tools that they really need and then also give them feedback from other podcasters. And we do a few live events, which is really fun. And yeah, I want to help people do their show because I think you're right. I think now is the time.

Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your story and just so many great tidbits of information. This was seriously like a masterclass in itself.

You're so sweet. Thank you for having me.

Oh, how inspired do you feel? I love seeing people really go after their dreams and then helping people on the other side after they've figured it out. So thank you, Kathy, for sharing your story with us. And for all of you out there who are waiting to create an online business business, go for it. Like, don't wait for someone to give you permission. The time is now. So if you want to learn more about abundance and money from me, please join me on the Abundance Mindset Masterclass. This is all about changing your unique mindset with money. Getting past those blocks, those limiting beliefs, everything that is holding you back from being your vibrant, abundant, luxurious self who is able to help the world, able to create a platform, doing what it is they love, have people supporting them on their team, sharing that vision, bringing their light to the masses. If that is you, please join me on the Abundance Mindset Masterclass. Head over to my website, iamsaharrose.com you'll see it right there. Head over to the link on this podcast. You'll get directed right to the Abundance Mindset Masterclass and it is going to change your life. I can guarantee that you have to do the masterclass to get to my program, and the program is super dope. Some of my mentors are part of the program as well, so I'm really excited to share that with you. And again. Again, we're going to be doing the webinar live this November, so I beginning of November. So sign up for the masterclass ASAP so you can get to it and start your journey of living an abundant life. Thank you so much for listening. Namaste.

Dungeon.