150: Santa Sold Shrooms with Tero of Four Sigmatic

Namaste. It's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self Podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. This episode of the Highest Self Podcast is brought to you by Chosen Foods, a San Diego based health food company best known for starting the avocado oil craze. They offer a variety of healthy fats and clean label products including including avocado oil, mayo and avocado oil based salad dressings bringing people back into the kitchen. They are helping people on their wellness journeys through the promotion of natural real food made with clean label ingredients. For 50% off your order of $10 or more, visit chosenfoods.com highestself and use coupon code highestself during checkout. Their dressings are so good. I love really massaging them into a kale salad so the kale is much easier to digest. Avocad is also a really high smoke point oil. So if you're cooking a lot of things, you don't want to be doing that in olive oil. You actually want to be using avocado oil because of the higher smoke point. So again, head over to chosenfoods.com highestself to begin your avocado oil journey. This episode is also brought to you by four Sigmatic four Sigmatic is an incredible mushroom elixir company. I proudly drink their elixirs every single day. My favorite is their chai mix. It is insanely delicious. I quit chocolate cold turkey and what helped me was drinking this chai mix every day. And best of all, they use stevia to sweeten it. And there's no sugars like the chai lattes you'll find at Starbucks or wherever else. And the mushrooms are really good for balancing your hormones, helping heal adrenal fatigue, healing your body on an adaptogenic level. So adaptogens really kind of relate to what your body needs. So if you are high stress it will bring you down. If you need more energy, it will bring you up. And that's what's so amazing about adaptogens. They adapt to your body. And mushrooms, medicinal mushrooms have a lot of adaptogenic properties so you can head over to their website 4sigmatic.com F O U R S I G M A T-I C.com Sahara I have a little shop up there with my favorite four Sigmatic products so you can try it out. And you can also get 15% off any four sigmatic product using the code Sahara. I just had the most epic conversation with Taro, the founder of four Sigmatic, who If you listen to this podcast, you know, I'm a huge fan of. They are a company that makes functional mushrooms more accessible for people. And not only do they do that, but Taro is on a massive mission to just inform us about mushrooms and where they come from, what their roots are. And in his new book, Santa Sold Shrooms. Yes, you heard that right. He goes back into the origins of what the Christmas story really comes from. You know, most of us, when we think of Santa, we think of, you know, the guy in the Coca Cola commercial with a bag of presents who goes in through your chimney on. On a fleet of reindeers. And it's kind of true, but it's based on a pagan tradition that celebrated the winter solstice that comes from the northernmost part of the earth before we move into the North Pole, Laplandia, which he talks about, which is sort of in modern day Finland and that region. And that's where Taro is from. He's a seventh generation mushroom cultivator. And in this book, Santa Sold Shrooms, he explains to us where the Christmas tradition comes from. And I was fascinated reading this book. It's like a children's book, but kind of an adult's book too, because every aspect that we celebrate Christmas actually has origins in something related to psychedelic mushrooms. Yes, psychedelic mushrooms. So in this podcast episode, we are going to talk about the roots of who Santa is, that he was a shaman and where this all came from, why we have reindeers, why we have a Christmas tree, why do we decorate the Christmas tree? Why is it a pine tree? Where does this all come from? And the roots are really going to fascinate you and blow your mind. So I want you to keep a really open mind with this episode, because some of us, we've really grown up thinking of Christmas a certain way. I know I have. And it can be hard sometimes to question your traditions, but really, the meaning of Christmas is still the same. To spend time with your family, the people that you love, to take time for yourself, to reconnect to your truth. So that hasn't changed. We're actually able to now celebrate the real meaning of Christmas instead of the commercialization around Christmas, which tells us that this is just a time to buy as many gifts from Toys R Us as possible, and then, you know, sit in front of a TV and watch, like, American Idol, not Christmas. Christmas is honoring your family, honoring the change of the seasons. It is a solstice, and it is a time to reflect. So without further ado, I would love to introduce you Again, he's been on this podcast once before. To Tarot, the founder of four Sigmatic. Welcome Tarot, to the Highest Self podcast. It's so good to have you here again.

Thanks for having me back. I'm honored.

Oh, well, we love you. You're even on the episodes that you're not on because of the four Sigmatic.

Yeah, totally.

Yeah. So the first question that I'd love to ask you again, and let's see if your answer has changed, is what makes you your highest self?

Well, that's great that you ask it because I don't remember what I replied the last time, but I have this mantra of living my own life in my own way. And it is a little abstract, but what I mean with that is when I'm living my life, not someone else's life or trying to live my life someone else's way and kind of checking in with myself, that I'm connected to my true north and that is my highest self. And sounds very simple, but it's incredibly hard. And often I forget that, for example, this year one of my parts of my highest self is helping others and educating others. But it's also to stay healthy myself while doing it. And I noticed that I've been traveling insane amounts, which is not good for myself or necessarily for the planet either. So I took a conscious step back from amount of airplane travel I do and reduced it from about 40 to 60 trips a year to 12. And that has already brought me much back to my highest self.

I love that. And do you know what's so interesting? Because I hear the people telling you what makes them their higher selves. I don't even remember, but I actually remember that is what you said last time, the exact same mantra. And that was like a year and a half ago. So it's great that your highest self, you know, has remained the same and you're. You keep going back to the same thing.

But you know what's interesting, Sahara, is, is how we change though. So what is our highest self when we're 20 is not what we're high self in 30 or even within years sometimes when, when your highest self in a busy season versus a more relaxing season. So that is that never ending balancing act and being open to transitions and kind of ebbs and flows and zigs and zacks of life. And that's almost the harder part than discovering it. And when you're taking a vacation in Hawaii or when you go to India and you meditate and you find it in that moment that's almost the easy part. The hard part is to kind of maintain that as you're going through the ups and downs of life.

So true. And you know, I think what the highest self truly is, the soul is always the same. It's different ways to get there.

Yes.

You know, different times in your life. Maybe it was like dancing at a rave and another time it's like being in total silence. Another time it's actually being in a meeting and working, fulfilling your dharma. But it's really all taking us to the same place.

Yeah. And I think that's really beautifully said. I couldn't set it much better myself. It's the soul or the feeling or the music of life that stays constant. And then the kind of the approach is what changes at times to time.

Yeah. And I mean just watching you and your brand and how much it's expanded, I can only imagine how much growth has happened in your life. I mean, four Sigmatic has gone from something. It's like, oh, have you heard of this mushroom coffee? Like, oh, I think so too. Like, who has not heard of it? It's everywhere. I just saw that you guys are on the Juice Press menus now. Like congratulations, that's massive.

Yeah. I feel like I reached out to Juice Press already before we launched in the U.S. i feel it was like 2013, 2014. So it was a long time coming. It's like that classic one night wonder success that you've been working on five years plus. So yeah, I mean I'm super grateful for what has the progress been not just with mushrooms and adaptogens, but generally on the consciousness of people around healthy eating and I think the conversation around just generally nutrition. Let's say that we're no longer afraid of all kinds of fats. We understand that there's good fats as well. We are understanding of more of the sourcing of food. It's just not buying into a label that oh, something is good or bad. But there's differences in quality and sourcing. So I think a lot of things have evolved in the last few years and obviously super grateful for also the mushroom mission growing. But it's not just for Sigmatic. I think there's just overall a lot of increasing consciousness across the board.

Well, I think you guys are really leading the way and the way that you've made it super accessible for people and the education. The book which we're going to talk about. But I'd love to know what, what has changed for you most going from just this guy with a mission to being the CEO founder of this massive company where a lot of people are depending on you and a lot of people probably want your time. What has shifted for you?

Actually that's a great question. It's something I've meditated a lot and I don't know if it's helpful to your listeners or not, but I'll try to provide some wisdom. But when I started the company I was obviously doing all kinds of work from shipping products and answering customer service. And as you get bigger and bigger, you start to do some of those things. But life was very simple. Almost nobody I met had heard of reishi mushroom or something like that. So it was very much in that education mode and just kind of almost everybody doubted you except yourself. And it's a very different mindset once you start to have resellers like we're sold at all the Whole Foods and now became the first food brand at Sephora and. And it's a different duties. But also like you said, more people depend on you. But just to give you a couple hopefully useful tidbits for people is I used to respond to every email, every message and I have this, I'm one of those like inbox zero people. You can definitely put a dosha on me based on just that. But I am not that person anymore. And probably a year and a half ago, a year and a half ago, I realized that I was just working really late nights and not serving my highest self. By trying to answer everyone, I just realized that it's no longer possible. So just kind of letting go. And I think that's a wisdom to everyone that nobody has time for everything, but we all have time for the most important things. And that's what as the company gets bigger and you're CEO with all kinds of responsibilities, very quickly you realize that you don't have time for everything and finding the priorities is really important. And then the other part is just people is when yourself and nobody believes you and then you start to have employees whose well being and life and family often and they support their kids is dependable on you. So it's just a very different lifestyle at that point.

So true. I've done the same thing. I've even done a podcast about why I stopped like opening all my DMs because you no longer are the type of person anyone would want to DM if all you did was respond to every person because it becomes so time consuming and it's hard because you know, you always want to be that person who's there for Everyone and, you know, involved in every aspect of your business and your life. But I think success is just a result of prioritizing. And the more you prioritize, the more successful you become.

Yeah. And I still try to be extremely accessible. Like, I don't do a lot of business stuff, so I can be on Instagram to respond to people and check out the hashtags to just kind of stay up to date on what people think about our products and some ideas and feedback. But the reality is that I just can't respond to everyone. And maybe someone gets disappointed and thinks I'm a total dick, but that's just the kind of the reality where it is. And trying to find ways how you can still interact with our community and customers while not being the realities of life, that you only have X amount of hours per day.

Absolutely. And putting out the education. So I just read your new book, which I. It's a children's book, but it's also not like it's an adult book, too. Like, I actually had so much fun reading it and learned a lot called Santa Sold Shrooms. And, guys, this is like the ultimate Christmas. Just, like, looking at traditions in different ways. And it's all about the original Santa story. So can you give us a gist about what the book's about?

Yeah, I mean, it's a very provocative name. Santa Soul Shrooms. And even calling that book a children's book is also very. But it's kind of done with, you know, a little wink and little smile in the face of having fun about something that is actually a quite serious topic. But it is a adult children's book about the origins of the world's, arguably the world's most famous person, Santa Claus, who celebrated beyond any cultural and religion and language. And a lot of people don't know, but the story of Santa Claus is much older than St. Nicholas, which a lot of people think it's the origins of Santa Claus. So St. Nicholas was a Turkish bishop, but there's no reindeers in Turkey. And the story of Santa Claus is at least 5,000 years old. And it comes from the only indigenous culture in Europe called the Sami people. Yeah. A lot of people don't know why does Santa come from the chimney and why there's red ornaments on the Christmas tree, and why is the Christmas tree a spruce tree and not a palm tree or something else? So I think there's a lot of facts that people don't know, and that's why I wrote the book. And I felt like the only Way to do it justice is making it a bedtime story and a children's book, even though if it's probably actually meant for more for adults.

I loved it because, you know, we do so many things out of tradition. We don't really know why. And I think it's so like something like you even say in the book, like, santa is the most famous man on earth. Right. But we don't realize that that tradition actually comes from far before Christianity. It comes from the pagan times, and every single element of it actually has this, like, incredible historical significance. So some of the ones that were really, like, trippy to me that I'm, like, telling everyone about are. I mean, there's so many. So the reindeers. Let's talk about the reindeers and why people think reindeers fly.

Well, reindeers are one of the few large domesticated mammals. So there's a handful, maybe nine to 12 large mammals that have been domesticated. And reindeer, which are different from, like, caribou and other North American deers, are one of those domesticated mammals. And they were domesticated somewhere between 5 to 8,000 years ago, at least probably longer, by some of these semi nomadic tribes, which Sami is a big part of it in this area of Lapland, or kind of northern Norway, Sweden, Finland and northwestern Russia. And so the Sami would be semi nomadic reindeer herders. And the reindeer is a big part of their culture where they make their clothing from their hide and they use the reindeer meat and obviously the whole animal to just survive in this very cold and arctic environment. And as part of their culture, they, like many indigenous cultures, they would celebrate the seasonal changes. And one of these main seasonal changes is the winter solstice, when the day is the shortest and the kind of new year begins. And this is not new to the Sami. Almost most indigenous cultures would celebrate the summer solstice and winter solstice. And the winter solstice, based on the old calendar, falls in line with Christmas, actually. And winter solstice was a celebration ceremony. And as part of the ceremony, this particular mushroom was consumed called amanita muscaria. And amanita muscaria is 100% legal, psychedelic. And the reindeer love it. And the reindeer love to eat this mushroom and trip on it. There's even a BBC documentary with Richard Attenborough talking about how the reindeer trip on this mushroom. And they. Maybe they felt like they were flying because they were jumping around all high, or maybe because the Sami people would consume this mushroom in the ceremony. And then they started seeing visions. And maybe one of these visions was flying reindeer. So either way, probably psychedelics were involved in the reindeers flying.

I love that. And it's amazing because we take one thing, which they were jumping, or maybe they saw them flying, and we turn it into the story. And the truth is not so far from it. But I think, you know, especially with psychedelics, so much of the world of culture, of societies were created based off of people taking these psychedelics, that it just gives you an insight into things in a way that like, I don't know, really would take a lot of meditation to get in any other way.

Yeah. And it's also funny how similar a lot of these stories are around the world and how celebrations were done exactly at the same time and. And how the wheel was invented at the same time in different parts of the Earth.

It's amazing. It's like this download, it's like information that us humans needed and was just bound to come through.

Yeah. And if somebody's really into this topic, there's a pretty fascinating theory called the alien astronaut theory about why this could be. But back to the Sami, I think the flying reindeer is just one of the more kind of mystical parts of the story, but there's more kind of factual elements like what a Santa come from. The chimney is partly because the Sami people live in these large teepees or kotas or lavus, depending on the tribe language. And the lavu has fire inside because it's really, really, really cold there. And that's why there's a hole at the top of the tipislas yurt. And the entrance is really kind of small and narrow, and if a lot of snow falls, which happens often, they might get snowed in. So there was already a secondary entrance and exit through the roof of the lavu or teepee or yurt. And that's why Santa Claus, like a lot of other people in that lavu, would enter and exit through the quote unquote chimney.

I loved reading that because, you know, we always hear Santa comes in through the chimney. Why? And then to see that it's an actual yurt that was snowed in. The only way in was through the top that and he would pretty much go through fire to get inside and share these mushrooms with the people was like, oh, oh, my God, everything makes sense. So can you share with us the tree? Why we, first of all, why the Christmas tree we use and where do the ornaments come from?

So, yeah, so the tree that we use to celebrate Christmas is pretty much exclusively the spruce tree. And the spruce tree is part of the pinecia family or the pine family of trees. And the pine trees are sacred trees for the Sami. They're actually sacred for a lot of different cultures. Up to the point that the pine cone gave name to a pineal gland. Partly because it looks similar, but partly people believe that the pine trees are the tree of life and the tree of wisdom and the pinella gland is where our soul lives. Up to the point I think Descartes said there's a little man inside our brain in the pinellial gland directing us. So for the Sami people, the pinecia trees are holy trees and happens to be. Is that the psychedelic mushroom that was sacred to them? The Amanita muscaria grows under this spruce tree. Grows out of in synergist relationship with the pine trees. And that's why maybe sometimes or many cultures put Christmas presents under the tree. But the mushroom is collected during summer and they rotten pretty quickly. Unless they're dehydrated really well. So there's a couple ways to dehydrate them is by sun or fire. So you could put it in a stocking over a fireplace. Or alternatively, if you have a really good sunny day, you can hang them on Christmas tree on the branches of spruce tree and the sun will dry them. And funny enough, mushrooms, not just amanita, but pretty much all mushrooms, collect vitamin D from the sun into their skin if they're sun dried. So that's very beneficial. And if you go back to even all Christmas like German time eulotid photos, you can see little kids holding these amanita mushrooms. And instead of hanging red balls and ornaments, there's hanging amanita mushrooms hanging from the Christmas tree. So this has changed. The change from a psychedelic mushroom hanging on the Christmas tree to red ornaments and red balls is only a few hundred years old. Until then it was all about the psychedelic mushroom.

I love that. So we used to hang psychedelic mushrooms on our trees casually. And for people who are like what does this mushroom look like? It's actually the mushroom emoji on your phone. Do you know why they picked that mushroom out of all the mushrooms? Just because it's like cool looking.

I would argue it's because it is the world's most famous mushroom. Even though nobody knows it by name. Ammonia muscaria is a legendary mushroom and not just because of its in the emoji, but it's also the mushroom that Super Mario catches to get superpowers. It is the mushroom in the Alice in the Wonderland. It is in the almost all the Disney movies. You start to look at Snow White or Fantasy and you start to see this psychedelic mushroom everywhere. It is a cultural classic and it has hold massive significance in our ancestors lives and also in a lot of arts and culture. We just kind of forgot it. And again, it is unlike the other psychedelic mushroom. Psilocybin Aminata mascara is legal in every state in the United States except Louisiana.

So are you guys going to start doing four Sigmatic packets with them or what?

How are you? It's also part poisonous mushrooms. You have to prepare it really carefully so not to have a poisonous effect. It's not a lethal mushroom per se, or you have to eat a lot and a lot of it, but it is poisonous. So you have to, you have to remove this, especially this compound called epotinic acid away from it. So it requires the right kind of boiling and cooking and drying and even then you might not fully remove it. So I don't think four Sigmatic is going to start to sell Amanita elixirs anytime soon.

Oh man. Okay, we're going to have to search on the Finnish interwebs or something to figure out how to get that.

Yeah, it grows in the US very widely so you can definitely see it. If you're ever out foraging or walking, you might find this red polka dotted mushroom. And just don't bite into it, please.

Okay. So I wonder why it's like everywhere. Do you think it's because like in Disney movies, et cetera, they had tried those mushrooms and it gave them the idea or do you just think of the iconic look of it?

I think the former. I think a lot of creative people have consumed psychedelic mushrooms and it was just not something they talked about openly because it was mightily kind of frowned upon. And I think psychedelic has been bigger part of our culture than we've just in the last generation or two have admitted.

For sure, I totally agree. And you know, and there's so many things, especially when you look at like Alice in Wonderland and these Disney movies that are kind of like Fantasia. It's like so many elements of them are based off of ideas, images that you see with psychedelics. But we just kind of like are like, oh, it's just a kid's thing, but it's actually a vision of life that we're all capable of.

Yeah, absolutely.

So I love that. So can you share with us about the stockings? Where do stockings come from?

Well, I mean the first disclaimer is that Christmas, like any good story and Santa Claus, like any good mystical character, has Had a lot of, lot of different inputs from different cultures. So the story of Santa Claus has come through a long way to the US to become the soda selling Santa that sells us sugar water. So it's gone through the Dutch product, the U.S. the Dutch got it from the Germans, Germans got it from the Italians. The Italians stole the grave of St Nicholas from Turkey, where it's from. And the Turkish part of the Orthodox Church got a lot of influence through the Slavic from this character called Dead Moros. And the Slavic obviously took it from this indigenous culture, the only indigenous culture in Europe. So it's gone through a long way. And along its way, every culture has kind of amended or added their own spice to the story. So it's hard to know exactly like who inputted what. But a big part of the Amanita Muscari is that you need to dry correctly. And if it's not sunny in wherever you're collecting it, which is common, you would have to dry it over fire or fireplace. And that's why these mushrooms were hanged to dry over a fireplace like a stocking. That being said, it was also the first original Christmas gift. So this mushroom was the gift of winter solstice. So that's why also probably the mushroom that was dried over the fire is also why gifts are above the fireplace. But. But again, maybe the Anglo Saxon culture and the British added their own colorful socks to the mix. And there's probably a lot of influence along the way.

It's so interesting how it's like this telephone effect. Like one person heard or saw one thing and it changes into something else. And now it's like totally a new holiday. Almost nothing is the same, Just sort of symbols are.

Yeah, and this is actually true with most holidays. I think the same telephone effect can be applied to, let's say Thanksgiving or Halloween, which is also a pagan celebration, or maybe Easter, an Easter bunny and Cinco de Mayo. So I think a lot of origins of our holy days get changed for different reasons. Same way as probably Ayurveda had to escape parts of India and kind of go almost like underground or remove some of its traditions because of the power dynamic, didn't enjoy it. And you had to almost go underground for a while. And same happened with a lot of these stories. Either they had to go underground or they had to pivot from indigenous or. I hate this word pagan, but pagan traditions to something that is either psychedelic cactus becomes San Pedro or sami celebrations become St. Nicholas to kind of serve the needs of the ruling religion at that time or Alternatively, they kind of go under hiding and and then. But the stories, the strongest stories still survive because they were so powerful to the people that they didn't want to give up on them.

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Well, I think the good news, especially about Christmas, is that the origins of it are almost the same as what we think of them today. If we just kind of go into the deeper part of what is even the modern version of Santa Claus or Christmas is it's a celebration of end of the year. It's a celebration with your family. It's a time to be grateful, reflect on the past. You don't need to consume psychedelics to do that. And it's also a start of kind of new hope and the new year and setting intentions for the new year. So those are all things that we can easily celebrate today as well. And again, you don't need to have psychedelics to do that. And the same with a lot of These other celebrations, or maybe with exception of Cinco de Mayo, is that there's a really beautiful tradition behind it. And there was a reason why it was a sacred ceremony for these, our ancestors. And kind of first researching the history of a celebration and then bringing some of these more important sacred traditions back, such as setting intentions for the new year. And I think the same goes for Christmas. So gather with your friends or family, reflect on the past, be grateful of the good things, set intentions for the next year. And ceremony can be just lighting up a candle instead of eating psychedelics. So that's kind of what I hope people would do.

Definitely, yes. Moving away from the commercialization of it and into the actual juice of what it's about.

Yeah. And again, don't be naive to think of that. How Coca Cola used this indigenous tradition for their own benefit was not for a commercial interest. Like, of course they did it to sell more product and that's why it was invented or adjusted. But it doesn't mean that you can use the same elements of the good in what made Santa Claus the world's most famous man is the good things in it. And we can still maintain those while kind of forgetting some of the other more commercial aspects of it.

So. Very true. So psychedelics, especially mushrooms, have been getting a lot more press because of the antidepressant benefits of it. They've done a lot of clinical studies, they've put people in closed containers and they've been seeing how it's affected them. Therapists have been working with it. Where do you think mushrooms are going? Psychedelic psilocybin. And how do you think it's going to become in the next few years in terms of, like, how society is foreseeing it?

Yeah, absolutely. So just in the last couple of years, the conversation has opened up a lot. I think people are more open to discussing potential benefits and also the risks that might be involved in using psychedelics like psilocybin. And before that it was such a taboo that nobody was willing to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly, even though it is also something that a lot of our ancestors been doing. There's evidence that seven to nine thousand years ago there's cave paintings of people with these magic mushrooms. And unfortunately, today It's a Schedule 1 substance and, and it's super illegal. But there is promise to it. Obviously way more research is needed. So the current recent researches from John Hopkins University, nyu are very promising. For the people who are not familiar, John Hopkins University made a double blind study on using psilocybin and half of the test subjects who received the psilocybin, not the placebo, said it was the single most meaningful experience in their life and one third rated as the top five spiritual experience. And there's obviously people now using it for business benefit like microdosing, which I'm not necessarily as big of a fan. I'm more of a fan of a kind of ceremonial use of all psychedelics. But I think eventually psilocybin to a certain extent, will be legalized. I think it will take longer time than a lot of the mushroom fans will think, but I think it will eventually happen. And the reason being is that a, it's not addictive. Like, there's no proof that psilocybin is addictive. It's not habit forming. It is almost impossible to overdose. You would have the lethal dose. 50 is like. It's like 17 million milligrams when most people consume a thousand milligrams. So one gram at per dosage and you would have to have like 17 kilos. So just not realistic to overdose on it. And again, non addictive. And if you take it two days in a row, it actually build tolerance for it. So it doesn't work. So I think at some level it will be legalized. In what way?

You can't take it two days in a row. I didn't know that.

Well, obviously you can consume anything two days in a row unless it kills. It wouldn't work. Yeah. So you build tolerance for. You would have to increase the dosage significantly or it doesn't work. And kind of anecdotally speaking, most people who take a bigger dose of psilocybin don't want to consume it for a long time because what they experienced was so powerful that they need a long break before they'll even consider consuming again. But that's also a reason why microdosing daily is probably not smart, because of the tolerance that your mind builds to it. But again, it's still illegal. But I think as time goes by, more and more research will come out. And because of the research being so almost exclusively positive so far, I think at some point it will be legalized, but I think it will take many years.

Yeah, I think, you know, with anything, it's hard for all the studies and data. But also speaking anecdotally, I think it was the biggest thing that opened me up to spirituality, that helped me understand my life, my relationship with my parents, things that I was holding onto that I was not aware of. Like, it gave me such a clear Insight into these aspects of myself that I had totally been overlooking, but still running with the shadows of. And yeah. And after you do it, you. I for sure am not like, I want to go back and do it again. I'm like, okay, I need to integrate all of that, what I took and changed my life. And you really feel so grateful. In fact, coming, like, back down to earth after it, like the afterglow is honestly the best feeling because you're so appreciative of your life and how beautiful everything is. Like, it's allowed me to look at nature in such a deeper way, to see. See the sacred geometry that exists in all things that, you know, even a painting, how. How alive a painting is. Like the strokes that still live on inside of it. And just having that experience has changed how I look at all of those same things every day.

Yeah. And unfortunately, getting this legalized in the eyes of a spirituality will be quite difficult, but it is very powerful and most people report a very spiritual experience. I think where the legalization will probably happen is in massive health issues such as you mentioned before, depression. The two trials at NYU and John Hopkins on, again, double blind studies. The other one was a double blind. The other one was randomized. Up to 80% felt significant decreases in depression and anxiety. And I think considering PTSD and people who are terminally ill, and there's these very dramatic cases that are also very costly for the society to treat. And so far there really isn't no good cure. These are the cases where I think psilocybin will initially be used and maybe alcohol and smoking, where it's also been proven to be very effective so far as reducing addiction to some of these other actually legal, yet way more addicting substances such as alcohol and tobacco.

Absolutely. That are really destroying lives every single day. So I think it's, you know, it's like the old paradigm and it's shifting and we're, you know, if everyone took shrooms, psychedelic mushrooms, the world would have to shift. We would no longer be able to operate from this place of fear and hatred and us versus them. And I think that the government kind of knows this and doesn't want us to all shift in this way. So they're suppressing this medicine that will actually help free and up uplift us.

Yeah. And if you decide to travel to a foreign country where it's illegal and use some of these substances, I would still encourage a lot of respect for their power. I feel like the negative side of this open dialogue that has been predominantly positive, but negative Is that the recreational consumption of these substances increased dramatically. And I don't think it's without negative consequences. So these things were used ceremonially and they were sacred. They were. I wouldn't call them medicine because they were used for also healthy individuals. They were almost like the sacrament for a lot of people. And I think that is the more useful case of them is approaching them with respect and gratitude and using them in places where there is an intention behind them beyond just recreational use. And just so you know, if you've not used these substances, they create a lot of focus on your senses, for lack of a better word. Your vision might get better, you might hear things, you'll be more sensitive. So when you do them in an environment that is full of stimulus and you might not necessarily feel safe. When you get extra sensitive, such as a music concert, might be really negative. So if you end up going to a place where they are legal and you're allowed to use them and you get the chance to experience them, I really recommend doing it in a place where you feel safe and you will feel comfortable. And by the way, you might not feel safe with a certain shaman. So really making your research to go to a place where you feel safe and comfortable and ideally surrounded by nature and something that is peaceful to you. So if the experience is stronger and more sensitive than thought, you have a way to kind of stay grounded during the experience. So, again, don't just go and go to Coachella and have tons of eagle mushrooms, but, like, set intentions and be respectful for their sacrament.

Definitely. Yes. For me, when I had it, I was around the elements. So we had a fire and we were by the trees and there was water nearby, and it was so beautiful because I got to really look at the fire and just notice the embers and the flame and how dynamic that fire is. It was like watching the best movie ever, and it's just a fire. And I felt very safe and I was around people, and that was definitely the best environment to do it. But that's why I don't really do it here in la, because I haven't really found that kind of environment here that I would feel totally safe and able to let go. And, you know, I wouldn't want to do it just like, at my house, because you're so in your routine in your house that it could just get you to like, oh, I need to, like, clean the dishes and do this and do that. Like, it's definitely somewhere that you should be around people who've facilitated these type of ceremonies. Before it's legal and you feel totally comfortable.

Yes, I agree. And I think the nature is so beautiful is that we often don't give it its appreciation. But when you're consuming such substances, you really feel and experience nature in a much deeper way. So I think that's another reason. To be by the water or be by the fire, be by the forest and trees and ground and touch the ground barefoot if possible, or somehow be in the elements is definitely highly recommended.

Oh, it's the best. The best. So I want to ask you, what do you think is the best type of mushroom, like medicinal mushroom for opening your heart? Because I think during the holidays is a time that, you know, sometimes family tension comes up and you're not in that heart open space that you wish to be. What do you recommend for that?

So out of the medicinal mushrooms, or as I like to call them, functional mushrooms, because again, medicine for a lot of people means when you're also sick, even though you and I both know it's a lot more about prevention and taking care of your body every day, day. But out of the 100% legal functional mushrooms, I think the Rishi mushroom R E I S H I is is by far the most grounding and heart opening. It's not called the mushroom of immortality or the mush, the queen of all of mushrooms for nothing. It is very much a heart centric mushroom. It's also set to increase the shen. And if you're not familiar with that in traditional Chinese medicine you have these pure kind of values called jing qi and shen. And they are kind of, they're slightly different than the doshas in, in Ayurveda, obviously because they're not based on body types. But there's still a lot of touchpoint similarities with them. And if you use the candle anecdote, the candle wax is the jing. It's, it's our body and the qi is the flame or our how our blood circulation and energy flows. And then shen is the light that we create in, in the surroundings of our body. And I think because Rishi really focuses on the shen, I think that's a good anecdote. Also why it's a great holiday holiday mushroom because it really opens up your presence in the room and your light to other people. And I think combining it with things like cacao and spices is even more make it makes it more seasonal. So if you want to have a more celebratory thing, maybe add reishi to your mullet wine and have a glue wine, a kind of a Hot red wine with spices and reishi. Or maybe you make a stress reducing hot chocolate with reishi and some spices. That might be something worth trying in the holiday season.

Love that. And you guys do have a really good packet. The blue one has peppermint and rose. Is that still what you guys put in there?

Yeah. So we have two. We have one with cacao and one without cacao. So. So the reishi elixir is with. It's based out of peppermint and rose hips and actually tulsi or holy basil is in it. And that's caffeine free, sugar free, no stevia, paleo, vegan, tick, the box. And then the other one is more of a healthy hot cocoa with cinnamon and cardamom and it has 2 grams of coconut palm sugar in it to kind of make a healthy hot cocoa. So those are the two Arishi products that we have and have. And actually we have also a new plant based chai latte that has turkey tail and reishi spores in it as well.

Oh, man. Can we talk about the chai latte for two seconds? Because I'm obsessed. Literally they were like, I kept telling Ari to send me more and he's like, we've run out. I'm like, oh, no wonder.

We sold out maybe like four times with it. So we need to start 2019 by having more inventory. But it was a tricky product to make. Is like. But so many people love it is. I wanted to make a caffeine free chai, which is kind of a wrong name for it in a way because chai is, as you know, it's more like it's tea. Like, yeah, it basically kind of means tea. But in this case, we didn't want to use black tea. We want to make a caffeine free chai product by replacing the black tea with these functional mushrooms. But once we got the recipe right, it actually is. Has become immediately one of the more popular products we make. And we've chronically been out of stock, but we're working hard to switch that for 2019.

I love it because, yeah, I know it's chai. And then I looked and I was like, I don't see black tea. But it still kind of has that black tea taste because of the mushrooms are very earthy. So what is turkey tail? What are the properties of that?

Yeah, turkey tail is not made out of a tail of a turkey. It's just like lion's mane is not made out of a mane of a lion. It's just the common name for one of the most researched mushrooms, Tummersis versicolor. And the versicolor is Latin of many colors. And it is more like looks like a tail of a turkey. And it's one of the more common functional mushrooms to forage as well. So you can find it in dead trees kind of around the country. And it is extremely antiviral, antibacterial. So it's great. Like many other mushrooms, it's great for your immune system and your gut health. But in combining this chai product with the cardinal spices, it's incredibly healing for your gut. So I really recommend turkey tail for keeping ourselves, supporting our immune system and supporting our gut. So that's a great mushroom for both of those things.

So would you recommend that more for the morning or night or. It doesn't really matter since it's caffeine free.

It works with both times I would generally say is that reishi and turkey tail might be better in the afternoon, evening, and especially because this doesn't have caffeine. But at the same time, a lot of these functional mushrooms and adaptogens are good in the morning and the evening and we kind of like call out the more common way to use them. But you could have reishi in the morning as well and you could have cordyceps in the night. But probably for 80, 90% of people, it's better to have reishi at night, cordyceps in the morning, and the same with turkey tail kind of recommending in.

The afternoon and evening more so very good. Okay, well, thank you for all of this information for inspiring us to look at Christmas mushrooms in general in a new way, and also for making it easy for us to actually bring these super functional, not medicinal plants into our life in a way that's delicious, convenient and cool. Like, honestly, you've made it cool. So I just want to appreciate you for a moment because you're really helping so many lives.

Yeah, well, likewise. I feel like I every week meet someone who mentions your name. Today, Ashley Stoll just commented and said how she's learned a lot in health and wellness from you, so. So it was both ways.

Oh, well, thank you so. And I also just want to say that because of our last podcast when we a year and a half ago and we were talking about mushrooms and Ayurveda, or we also spoken about that outside of the podcast and I started to research why does Ayurveda, like the kind of Ayurveda that we see, say mushrooms are not allowed. And it was because of the British rule when they came in and they saw that psychedelic mushrooms were growing in India, that they didn't want people to ingest psychedelic mushrooms because they would, you know, open their minds and see how messed up it is that England is running their country. And that's why they start to say mushrooms are tamasic, which is essentially they're going to make you dull, they're going to make you tired, you're going to fall asleep. And it actually came from that fear of psychedelic mushrooms which has now kind of made its way into Indian culture, that some people are afraid of mushrooms, even though in, especially in northern India, mushrooms have been a staple in their diet for thousands of years. So I want to say thank you for striking up that, that chord with me because it's allowed me to go down that rabbit hole and put it in, eat, feel fresh.

Yeah. And I think that's another reminder, just same way as Santa Social Shrooms is about the Sami people and the tradition of Santa Claus is how certain traditions that we think are just normal and complete truth that change over time. Like you said, it's a game of telephone. And sometimes some of these ancient traditions get changed along the way because of some of the more political or religious reasons, and they don't actually are not factually correct. And a lot of these natural, ancient healing methods have been affected by the governments. And this is just one of the examples again, unfortunately, since mushrooms are a kingdom that both heal and hurt, they have a strong emotional response. And certain cultures just have made it almost banned these mushrooms for different reasons. And the Anglo Saxon or the British have been the most vocal against them.

Well, it's so important that we are now having this renaissance, looking at these beautiful plants for the wisdom that they really provide us with their gifts that we are given as humans. And I also want to ask you, do you think that when we ingest mushrooms, we are taking on the mushrooms consciousness?

Yes. It's probably one of the more, let's call it heterodox views that I have around the world is that these mushrooms have intelligence. And intelligence is greater than we can understand with words. And when we consume mushrooms and certain plants, we consume that intelligence into our body. And I'm a big fan of Rudolf Steiner and many other things, but it's definitely a thing that is hard to explain and I cannot do it justice with words, but it is something I believe in.

So true. Yeah. Because I mean, with anything you ingest it, you take on its consciousness. But I think with mushrooms especially, they really have their own intelligence. To them.

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Again, partly I can prove it scientifically and partly I can. It's just one of those things that you just have to have faith on.

Absolutely. Well, thank you again for being on the highest self podcast. And where can listeners find you and try your incredible four Sigmatic products?

If you're interested in learning more about mushrooms, I've created a free mushroom academy. I think I mentioned it last time. Just go to Google and type Mushroom Academy. It's 100% free. And go learn about mushrooms. I also wrote a book called Healing Mushrooms about about the top 10 functional mushrooms and their benefits and how to use them in culinary ways. And then this new book, Santosol Shrooms. You can find it on Amazon and whatnot. And four sigmatic, I guess everywhere. Social media, YouTube, Instagram, f o U R S I G M A T I C co finders and learn more and chat with us. We'll try to do our best to respond. If not me personally, someone else from our team will do a bit best to get back to you.

Yes. And you guys have your shroom room in la. So if anyone's ever in la, go to Abbot Kinney in Venice Beach, California. And every. All the products in there are free, right?

Yeah. And we're opening a similar free cafe in New York City as well in 2019. So.

So epic. Oh my gosh.

Exact date to be confirmed, but it's coming to New York as well.

Like it's literally, you're just inviting us over for a cup of free mushrooms. I could even just do ye chai lattes, everything. And golden milk too, which is amazing. Matcha latte, which is amazing. So many cool, innovative products that you're probably already drinking on a daily basis and you're just going to upgrade it with your four Sigmatic.

Well, we're trying, yes.

Well, thank you again and we'll see you next time.

Thanks for having me on.

Wow. How fascinating was that conversation? It's so impactful to speak about things taboo, things that we don't speak about, whether you have tried mushrooms or not, whether you're curious about them, whether you have judgment around them. But it's important to sit and listen to conversations because that's how we expand our consciousness and that is how we leave from duality, which is judging things as good or bad and just seeing things as they are. So this was a really impactful conversation for me. I actually have wanted to talk, talked to someone about mushrooms before because they are a beautiful tool when used correctly. Into spiritual awareness and something that there's a lot of stigma around and really shouldn't be, because so much of our art and our insight into this world has come from the use of psychedelics. And mushrooms are natural, they come from the earth. There's nothing unnatural about them. But at the same time, there's something that needs to be taken ceremonially in the right facilitation, in a place that they are legal, somewhere that you feel supported and ideally with a shaman or someone who can facilitate the journey for you. That way you will be able to use the experience for the optimal level of personal growth. And that's really what they're for. So if you love to try mushrooms, try Four Sigmatic again. Head over to foursigmatic.com f o u R S I G M a t I c.com forward/sahara and you will see my little page that has my favorite products. The chai, the golden milk, the matcha and everything is 15 off. Or you can just use code SAHARA and you'll receive everything for 15 off. I highly recommend trying it. It's life changing. I have it all the time and it's such an easy way to get your mushrooms in. And if you love this episode, I would love to send you a free gift which is the first first half of my Eat Right for your mind body type ebook. This is an unreleased book different from my book Eat Feel Fresh. To get the first half free all you gotta do is leave a review on itunes, take a screenshot before you hit send and send that screenshot to me at Sahara S A H A R aattfeelfresh.com and I will send you back the first half of my unreleased book Eat Right for your mind body type Namaste.