222: Dating, Desire + Dominance with Shan Boodram

Namaste, it's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. Oh, God. I had the most amazing, incredible, and hilarious conversation with Shan Boodram for this episode. If you've not heard of her, she's an awesome youtuber who talks all about sex. She's a sexologist, and that's what we dive into in this episode. So this is an explicit episode, guys. I would not listen to this if you have kids in the car, because we go into all of the things, and it was just really beautiful to hear someone who's so open talking about sexuality because it's such a thing that in our society, it's like, you know, we all come from sex, but no one can talk about it. And if there's one thing all humans have in common, it's sex. There's no one that is here that doesn't come from sex. There's no one here that eventually won't have sex. I mean, there are very few people in the world that die virgins. Let's be real. So we need to talk about sex because it is the force of creation. It is where we all came from, and it is where we all go too. And it's such a beautiful part of the Vedas tantra is the merging of Shiva shakti energy. It's when the divine feminine, the masculine, can merge and you experience the totality of who you are. So that moment of an orgasm, that void, that infinite feeling, is actually the truth of who you are. And in our society, we've so separated spirituality and sexuality, and it was never meant to be separated. They were always hand in hand. I mean, if you look at the Vedas, if you look at ancient Egypt with Goddess Isis, if you look at Kamasutra and these temples dedicated to sexual practices, they've always been connected. And we're awakening to that again with this shift in consciousness. We're remembering what sex is truly about, which is to tap into our inner being, to experience pure presence. Because there's no other moment that we humans really experience. Like the moment of an orgasm that you literally can't think of anything else at that time. You're just in total presence. And it's like so many of us were, like, squirming, like. Or did she say orgasm? Did she say sex? And it's like, look at that. If that's you. If even just, like, hearing this is making you uncomfortable, look at that. Because that's conditioning from society. That's making you think that it's not okay to talk about where you came from. And I had a lot of it. I had tense of conditioning. I was always. I mean, I was never even told what sex was. I just kind of figured it out from my aunt. Like, I did not grow up in a sex positive household. But we can all change our views and rewrite our own stories to how they want to be. So most of us have grown up thinking sex is bad, sex is dirty. Sex is something you should never talk about, let alone listen to a podcast. Oh my God. What if God hears you? It's like, no, God wants you to have sex because sex is how you procreate and how it keeps the world going. And it's not just about procreation either, guys. It's about pleasure. It's about the bliss and the joy and the fun of having sex. And there's nothing wrong with that. You know, look at the part of you that's unwilling to look at. Why does sex feel good if we aren't meant to have it? You know, our bodies were designed to feel good because it's something that we are meant to do. And we're not just meant to have sex one or two times in our lives when we want to just have a kid. It's not just this science equation. Otherwise we would have been designed very, very differently. You know, other animals actually do have sex like once a year, and that becomes their offspring, but not as humans. You know, average couple. I mean, Shan talks about it in this episode, but we be having sex like every week at least, you know, so why does it feel good? Because it's part of who we are. So in this episode, we talk a lot about sex, more just in terms of the natural tendency of all of us to want it, even from a young age. We're gonna talk about that. If that makes you feel uncomfortable, you're going to hear it or don't listen to it. But it's normal. Just want to put that out there that it's normal for even young children to start thinking about sex and romance and. And as a society, again, we so shun it and we don't want to talk about it, and then we repress it, and then it turns into the shadow aspect. You know, if you don't tell someone what sex is and they're feeling sexual urges, it turns into the shadow, which is the darker aspects, the things we don't want. But if we allow ourselves to talk about it like this is what's happening. To you, this is why you're feeling that way and this is how to handle it. This is how to handle what you're feeling appropriately. Then we can have empowered citizens who can be sexual and spiritual beings. So we talk about that in this episode and we talk a lot about dating. So she has a new book out called the Game of Desire. So we talk all about. I consider it kind of like a why men love bitches, but a little more feminist approach. Cause it's all about, you can choose the guy too. So we talk all about that dating with dominance. And we talk also about preserving passion in long term relationships because she recently got married, as did I. We definitely were like weddings. But we're talking about just even in a marriage, how to preserve that same passion and to, you know, keep the games going and not like, you know. And I even asked her in this episode, like, doesn't it feel exhausting to play games? Like, I feel like I can't be present if I'm playing games. And it's not about playing a game, but it's rather keeping the spark going, keeping the energy going and not just getting like, okay, well, we're married, so I don't need to try anymore. But it's like, no, you're still a human with turn on triggers. And there are things that can turn you on and there are things that turn me on. So let's talk about it. Let's be really, really communicative about it so we can give each other what we need. So Shan is an amazing wealth of knowledge. We're gonna have experts like her in the Rose Gold goddess community. So if you've not signed up yet, head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com it is my membership platform with beautif who are here to uplift you and support you and to help you on your spiritual growth journey. We have our very own app with forums like Sacred sexuality and yoni health and menstrual cycles, as well as entrepreneurship, Ayurveda, herbalism, shamanism, crystal healing, all of the things. And women are connecting. They're planning meetups all around the world. They are discussing the topics that their souls are so craving to talk about with women who totally have their back and get them there. We have messaging in the app so you can message people that you're really resonating with. We can see with geolocating services who's near you so you can connect with them in person. We have monthly goddess circles working with a new goddess of each month. So during our Lolita Sundari Month, we're definitely going to be working with sexuality and tantra and orgasm magic and all of those things. So we'll also be talking about creativity and entrepreneurship and dharma and purpose, because a goddess is all things sexual, spiritual, meditative, fierce, everything. So if you're curious and you want to learn more. Doors close tomorrow, so head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com if you're listening to this later. That's cool. Head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com anyway so you can add yourself to the wait list for next time we open doors. Now, without further ado, let's welcome Shan Boodram to the Highest Self Podcast. Welcome, Shan, to the Highest Self podcast. It's so good to have you here.

We've been talking, guys, for an hour now, so you missed out. It's been great.

Yeah.

Can I just start by saying whoever is listening to this right now is incredibly smart for choosing you. You're so wise and smart and powerful, and I'm sitting across from you, honestly, so blown away. I'm intimidated.

Oh, my God.

But I'm loving every moment of it.

Oh, stop. I totally have a girl crush on you. I'm, like, showing my husband. I'm like, look at her. Look at her and her husband. They're so cute. We need a double date with them. Oh, my God.

No, we do. As you were talking, I'm like, a hundred percent. I want to your house. I want to meet Seal. Oh, can I just live in your skin for a day, see what you read? And as we've been talking, I've followed, like, 10 people based on recommendations. This is a very unorthodox beginning of the podcast, but I just want to start by saying no, I love it. Just keep talking about how you're doing the right thing. You are ahead of the game. This feels like a big hack. Yeah. Even just sing across.

We're just going to give you all the secrets right now on everything.

Give it to me.

Okay, so the first question I'd love to ask you is, what makes you your highest itself?

Honestly, it's gonna say love, and I'm gonna shoot myself in the face while I say that. I mean, let's say kick myself. I'm not gonna shoot, but I just think it's so corny to say that, but ultimately, the end of the day, that's a biological answer. We are born to bond as human beings. There's no reason for us to be the top of the food chain. We are very fragile and not that well Equipped, we don't have the strongest teeth, we don't run the fastest, we don't, you know, swim underwater the longest amount of time. What makes us magical is our ability to bond and look after one another. Our ability to create connection. Love. Ultimately, I've dedicated my life to learning it, and I reap the benefits of it. So when I am in practice of loving other people, loving on other people, learning through love, leading through love is when I feel like that's why I'm alive. This is the purpose, this is the reason behind all of it. So it's a hokey answer, but no.

I mean, it's the reason behind everything, right? It is. You know, and it's almost like when you're in a fight with your significant other, your love life isn't working. Like you can't think about anything else. Like that just becomes the forefront. You're actually more productive when you don't have to worry about it.

Yes.

And I feel like that's why so many people are like, successful, but they're like, I need to figure this love thing out because it's keeping me back in all other areas of my life.

It's such a crazy thing because my previous relationship I would refer to as a zombie relationship where it just needed my brains. It just needed time and brains, and it was insatiable. No matter how much time and effort or energy just was never enough. Just need to keep consuming me until eventually I was like, I had to press the stop button. And I'm married now. And my partnership is honestly like 99 problems with a bitch. A1. It's just like, it's so, so easy and loving and awesome. And I also acknowledge the fact that based on the fact we were talking about our career before, my career is such, in many ways an abusive relationship. It's unpredictable. It needs a lot of my time. It doesn't always. Like, the return isn't always there. It puts me down a lot. It's so challenging. So my love life can't be that. Yeah, I just don't have the mental space for anything else other than exactly what I have, which is pure love, joy, ease, challenges, but challenges in which I always see the return on my efforts.

I feel the exact same way. And I. I've actually written about how for me, relationship, like, my relationship has always been the easy thing and I'm stressing about other, you know, the book launch, this, that, but the relationship is like, I know that's in the bag. And a lot of people have never experienced something like that before, you know, it's may, maybe other things are in the bag, but the relationship has always been a struggle. So I really want to get into that. But before, I want to ask you. So I saw you speak about a year and a half ago at the Good Fest.

Yes.

And you were just so connected to your pussy. I don't know if anyone has ever told this to you before, but, like, you're connected to your. Like you were talking from there. You are living from there. Like, you were just up there. Like, I think you came in with like a massive kick, as if you're Sporty Spice. You're like, what's up? We're gonna talk about what turns you on. And you're just like confident. Like, guys, like, look at her Instagram. She's like this lioness with like curly hair, Durga energy. She's like the warrior goddess. Lots of pitta, lots of fire. We just found out you're a manifesting generator. How are you so connected to your pussy?

I honestly think that I always was. People think about purpose a lot as finding your purpose, going towards your purpose. For me, it was a lot of going back when I was really young. I'm talking about like 5 years old. I remember just being so fascinated by the human body, by touch. I grew up though, in a West Indian family and a Catholic household. And so a lot of that natural affinity I had towards touch and love was discouraged. I was called lewd a lot growing up. Like, you're being lewd. You're too, like, you're crude. And my Barbies were banned from being naked when I was like six years old because he just never had clothes on. I remember that myself and my friend, maybe around five or six, we had a sleepover. Exactly. They had to like have showers with clothes on because like maybe the grocery store. My mom would always come into the Reno when Barbies, you put them down where you finish playing with them, they would always be on top of each other and so naked.

Yeah. Mine would like make out and each other.

It was just like. I knew it was okay. I knew it was right. I knew it was beautiful. But that I think was discouraged a lot. So I feel like I was born knowing that. I think a lot of the truth that I now hold in my life is me reclaiming what my five year old self knew, which was, this is your superpower. This is an awesome part of who you are. And this deserves celebration.

And I think all of us know and it's just, we forget. We just put on so Many ravels of society says this. My family says that. That we just forget. But I really believe, like, our purpose is in all of us. And I also think all of us were born super sexual. Right. Like, I remember when I was, like, five, I would get turned on reading that Pocahontas book. Like, Pocahontas, Johannes and John Smith kissing. I was like, on that page, you know, or like, when you would see, like that. What's that skunk? Who would like Pepe Le Pew?

Yeah.

Like, that would turn me on. And I didn't know what. I didn't know what was happening. I didn't really know what sex was. But you just know it's a bad thing. And, you know, you need to, like, shut it down. I mean, children, like my mom would say, I would be like one or two years old humping my little fire truck. Oh, wow.

Because I could just.

It just felt good, you know? So you just. Don't you just feel, oh, this feels good. Or little boys, you know, they're. They touch themselves and then they. They hear, that's a bad thing.

Don't do that.

Oh, my God. And then it just creates a lifetime of problems.

Oh, absolutely. I think for one of the greatest things I did, I went to school for sexology to become a sexologist. And we had to do this course which was age by age, normal. And I'm saying normal by barometer of, like, the median. Not like, what's normal or right, but what the average person is doing at that time. And so what is the average person doing, age by age, sexually? And I'm like, every person should read this.

Yeah.

You think that five years old, humping a fire truck makes you a weirdo. Where it's like, that's normal. That is actually where around the time. And I remember when I turned, you know, I was 27, 28. And after I'd taken that course, and I remember saying to my parents, because my parents found out I lost my. I hate using that term. When my parents found out I had my first sexual experience, they were so disgusted, disappointed, and angry at me. Like, literally.

How old were you angry?

16. 16 years old. Someone tattled on me and they found out, and it was. They were angry. And I said to them, you know, I was 20. After I'd read this year by year development. And I Learned that at 16 years old, your coccyx fuses together. It now becomes one complete pelvic floor system. And you're getting all these additional hormones which are encouraging you now to start the act towards procreation. This is a normal biological development. And I said to them, when I was one and I started walking, did you shove me down and get angry because I started to walk? No. Like you, there's a normal biological development. And you applauded those changes that were naturally happening in my body. And as a sexual being, I've been sexual my whole life. But this drive towards acting, acting on it, was natural biological development. And the median age for people becoming sexual is 16. So I was right on target. Like, why were you so angry with me and disappointed in me? Like, did you push me down when I was one? And I think that, you know, they just didn't know, obviously, and they're acting out on the information that they had previously. But I feel so much good can be done by us just really accepting that this is a normal, wonderful part of who we are all throughout our lives.

And now, as a sexologist and, you know, YouTuber on this and speaking about sex, I saw, like, on your Instagram story, your dad is reading your book. Like, what is that dynamic?

Like, now it's, girl, it's a dream come true. It's kind of like, it's not like it's a waste, but I mean, like, I'm like, where Was this at 16? You know, like, my parents and I, like, my parents went through a separation maybe two, three years ago, and they were sort of re. Entering the dating space and coming to me and being like, what do I do?

It's been so long.

What is this? And I'm like, okay, like, like, let's. We're really adults now in this space, figuring it out together. And yeah, my parents and me have an incredible relationship. I think around sexuality, just intimacy in general. And so I'm grateful for that. But I've been in this space for 13 years when my mom first found out that I was doing what I was doing for a living, because at 19, I had basically had a really shit teen sex life. And at that point I was like, okay, I can keep suppressing this and finding backdoor ways to engage my sexuality, which. Which hasn't been working for me, or I can learn this the right way. I can go out there into the daylight and actually start researching and learning, even though it's not encouraged for me to do so. And when I did that, I put together this site called saviorcherry.com which eyeroll was like, my way of, like, you know, appeasing my parents but still talking about sex somehow.

Was it like a pro virginity?

It was. I Mean, I think that was the compromise I was making. I'm like, look, I'm talking about sex, but I'm only talking about it's like, healthy help other people not do it. And they did not see it that way. My mom had this story of how I had my first sexual experience in detail on the site. And it was supposed to be to help others learn. And my mom, when she read it, was like, don't you realize that boys are going to be laughing and masturbating and circles. Making a joke out of you? And now I'm like, what porn were you watching? Where like that. Circle jerk. Tickling. Circle jerk is a thing number one. But number two, like, that was. Was, you know, their earliest impressions of my work.

Yeah.

And it took a very long time before they started to realize that this is actually a good thing.

Yeah. Because I think a lot of people want to do this kind of work, but they're like, oh, my God, I would bring so much shame to my parents. Like, maybe because you're like, you know, Caribbean or West Indian, there's. They're more open to it, but we're seeing that they actually were totally not open to it. And you still had to massively go through the. The breaks and the familial conditioning and stuff to do what you're doing. So if anyone's listening, you're like, oh, my God, I really want to, like, like, be involved in sex professionally. Go for it.

Go for it. And also acknowledge that they're right in their own way. You know, your parents job is to protect you, is to keep you safe. And so all of their reactions weren't coming from a bad place, they were coming from. Their primary role in my life is to ensure that I grow up to be an adult who can contribute and support themselves and also is safe. And they're watching me engage in an industry that there's no proven track record of success. Two, it's very taboo at the time. And three, puts me in a position to possibly be abused by others or harmed in some way. So all of their reactions were coming from a good place. But I just had to know that my vision was stronger than their instincts.

I love that. Well, I'm glad you listened to your soul and kept doing it.

Did your parents affirm what you.

Oh, there's so much drama. They were like, you're gonna die. You're going to become homeless. How are you going to leave?

Spiritual teacher.

Like, they were not happy with it at all, but that's gonna be a.

Who are going to die.

Yeah. So I wanna. So I'm reading your book Game of Desire. I love it. I feel like it's like an upgraded version of why Men Love which was. Did you. Have you gotten that before?

No, I have not.

It was like reminding me of that. But it was way more like femme empowering. I felt like that was a little more like don't tell them how you feel. But like my 14 year old self was doing it and it was working but it only got me to a certain place and I was like, oh my God. I'm only attracting people who are seeing me as a conquest because I was so what you call like the cactus like thorns. But I thought you had to play hard to get to get what you wanted. But this book is all about dating with dominance, right? And I feel like that is something totally new because a lot of people are like well if I ask a guy out that aren't I only attracting weak men or not going for the people who want to conquest me. So I want to talk about picking up being that first person you making the move. A lot of people have a lot of fear around it. Especially fear of what if that person is. Is taken.

Yes.

So how do you deal with that?

I would say you reframe what your ideals of picking somebody up or making the first move is. I definitely was an upholder of women should never make the first move. I one look at that person like you were a goddamn liar. Cuz you were making the first move all the time. You just didn't call it that. Cuz I would always initiate conversation. I would open with a compliment. And don't get me wrong, that took some time.

Okay, you're at a bar. So you would walk up to the guy and just give him a compliment or you would do. Because you talk about in your book, you look him in the eye, you look down his body and then you make eye contact again. I was that is fierce. Like I would have not had the confidence to do that.

I mean a lot of this book as well too. Like I wrote laid 10 years ago because my sex life was. And I needed to learn and become better. I wrote the Game of Desire because I was an awful connector. I was choosing the wrong people. I was getting chosen into relationships that weren't best suited for me. And I also like I'm naturally as we talked about, I'm a skeptical person. I'm a disagreeable person going to the big five personality assessment. So I make life a little harder for myself just by virtue of how I connect with other people. So this book is the fruit of research of me being like, hang on, I gotta change. This is not working out for me. So a lot of the things in the book I had to, like, like, learn bit by bit how to do. So the one thing that I always do. Yes. Is the eye contact. And the thing you're talking about is called the sexy eye triangle, Meaning if I look you in the eye, it's a sign of respect. If I look you in the eye, then look down and look away, It's a sign of, like, disinterest or sometimes fear. I look you in the eye, look down at your body, and look back up, Up. It's a sign of attraction.

I feel like the look back up is what's intimidating.

That moment where it's like.

It's like, it's. It's happening, it's on, it's on.

But, yeah, I approach all the time because I just open up dialogues with people that I think are fascinating. And when I thought about it, I'm.

Like, what Are you ever afraid? Like, what if he has a girlfriend? What if the girlfriend's here?

What's. I mean, that's what I. I just. I look at human connection as, again, it's our superpower. It's our ability to bond and create connections. I flirt all the time, girl. I haven't gotten a black eye since, you know, But I'm mindful. I mean, the intimacy is taking one small step with somebody, making sure it's reciprocal. Looking around, do you feel safe going backwards? Necessary. But if you feel good taking that a step forward. And so my flirting is never, like, you're super sexy eye triangle right now, like, consensual touch. Let's hug. Oh, can I demonstrate, you know, value for you right now? Can I make you laugh? I'm not going to do 17 steps, then realize, oh, you're committed to somebody, and now that person is standing there feeling disrespected.

Right.

I might walk over to you and smile and say, like, does this place pick up later? It's kind of slow right now. And if you're like, oh, me and my girlfriend come here all the time. I'm like, oh, great, what's your girlfriend's day? Am I just gonna switch my mo? So your approach is not. And also, too, you never should approach somebody with an intent. You're a complete stranger. How can I assign a meaning towards what I'm looking, what I want from you if I don't even know you? So when I'm walking up to you. It's not to figure out if you're gonna like me, it's to see like how can I engage with you. And that curiosity has to be there as a lead. There's never an intention behind it it. And so if I come up to you and I notice that there's not that again that reciprocal intimate advancements being made, I back off one or two, I change expectations and say this could be a good friend.

So how would you do it? In a place like a yoga studio or somewhere else that's not like a bar that people are picking each other up or flirting.

Even better, you have a built in conversation starter. I mean like there you guys are already there. Like one of the main tools of influencer of connection is, is rapport building. And rapport building is what salespeople try and do desperately. You know, they try and find that common ground immediately so that you can start to create that familiarity. Cause that's how they sell to you. But if we're at a yoga studio, we have built in rapport.

So like what are some things you could say?

You could go up to the person and ask and opinion based questions always work. So if I come up to you and I'm like, me and my friend were having this debate, what's a better workout, yoga or cycling? And now you're like, oh, I come to yoga, so I have an opinion on this. And so you start engaging in that way. I started looking at you for IOIs, which is indicators of interest. So while I'm talking to you, are you leaning in? Are you mirroring me? Is your voice getting a little lower? Are you talking with your hands a lot? Are you, are you excited? And that's how I know to continue the conversation. If you just answer my question. Kind of flat, your feet are positioned away from mine, like your shoulders against. I'm noticing that you're being polite and so I'm not going to try to advance the conversation. But when you're in a setting that you already have a common interest, like the door is open for you. So ask an opinion based question, give a compliment, ask a research based question like hey, is there an advanced class after this? Even if you know the answer to it, you know, whatever you would Google in that space, just ask a person instead.

What about a place that people aren't really talking? Maybe they're coming in and out like you know, a grocery store or like a festival that people are with their friends. How would you kind of go and stop someone yeah, we had a stripper.

Who was like an expert and she came and taught this incredible class on how to start and lead conversations. And she said like, the thing that you do to be memorable is to make your conversation sexy or weird. Weird. Ask an opinion based question and then ultimately always be in touch with how that person like take their temperature. So I'm never going to approach somebody who looks like they're in a rush or who's really corely engaged with their friends and like their feet are pointed towards them. So you can, I mean like, don't get me wrong, you can do anything. But if I'm looking for an easy time and I suggest to people, like, it becomes there's levels, like you said to me offline. How am I supposed to remember to do all these tips when I'm trying to be connected on a day and think about it. Like, if you're a basketball player and you're in a game, is that the time to try out a new move you've hardly done in practice? No. You do in the game, whatever you know how to do very, very well. And in practice, in low risk environments, in places that you deem the result not that important, that's when you try out some new stuff. So I would not suggest to somebody who's just getting started to go to a festival, a busy concert, when someone's surrounded by 40 people. To make that your first time approaching, you start, start in low risk environments. You start at the yoga studio with someone that you don't think is that crazy, intimidating and see how that goes.

I love that.

Practice with waiters. Girl, I practice waiters all the time. I get shut down by waiters. I have so many embarrassing rejection stories. But that's because I'm constantly trying out new things and seeing what works. I was at a meeting actually in New York and this lady, she first of all was meeting with me because of the book. And then she said to me, she's like, you are, are the most charismatic person I've ever met before. And I was like, girl, that's what the book is about. It's no coincidence. Like I have trained myself to be this person and the only way that I've become that is by constantly practicing and always adding new tips, but adding them slowly so that when it does count, it's second nature to me.

I love that. Yeah. And it becomes second nature if you think about all the things that we're doing on a daily basis. We're not even cognizant of it. But when you're first learning it, Learning to walk, learning to ride a bike, learning anything. Your mind has to be there. So when I'm reading it, because it's all new to me, I'm like, okay, touch the hand and this. But. But I realized when I was dating I would do some of these things naturally without even thinking about it. But sometimes it doesn't come naturally for people and then they do have to think about it. I definitely noticed like the touch, like the lingering touch is like a really good one. But I also feel like, at least for a lot of women, we're afraid of doing that. We're afraid of coming off as too strong. So how do you cope with that?

You have to. I mean, my friend actually hated the title of the book and shout out to Maya Washington, shameless Maya. But she's like, the book title, I hate it, I can't get past it. And then she read the book, she's like, it's the perfect title. Because the game, the point of the game is you find your own strategy, you make up your own plays. And so there's no one size fits all approach to this. I think I love why men love bitches. But it is a one size strategy that everyone should take. Whereas in with this, I'm saying to you, here's the five principles. You got to know yourself inside and out and get advanced feedback from others. You got to change the things that haven't been working for you, to optimize yourself to be the best version of you, because you are whoever you consistently choose to be. Then you've got to learn from great people. Like, the easiest way to become a pro is to learn from the pros. So start making yourself a student of dating, of connection, of seducing, of being a person whose love and their ability to love is a superpower. Then you got to practice in low risk environments and you got to be that person that you want to be and show up consistently as that person. Now what you do to get to that phase, you might say, some of these things work for you and some don't. So if touching is just really not a part of your strategy because it's just too forward for you, number one, that could change with time. You could start with something simple like a compliment. Do that for two months, feel good about it, and then be like, I'm gonna do a compliment with a light shoulder touch. You might try that and say, oh, that feels forced, I don't wanna do it. Or try it 10 more times and say, that actually worked. Great. So I'm not saying to anybody to force yourself way out of your comfort zone. This book should be a lot like building healthy intimacy. Take that tiny step forward that's a little out of your comfort zone. See how you feel. Check in with yourself. Practice that 20 times before you add another step and try something new.

I love that, and it's so true. It's like you're giving people a lot of tools, and they get to decide what works for them. But if we're all like, this formulaic, like, this is how I hit on someone, you know, it wouldn't even be fun anymore.

There's this book called the Game, which is, like, somewhere over here.

But I was just reading the Truth. Have you read that? I thought you read the Truth.

Yes.

Very interesting.

It was very interesting. Yeah. But in the game, he made this comment because the Game is, like, a formulaic pickup artistry approach, is based on psychology. That works. But at the end of the day, I refer to the game, a lot of, like, putting whipped cream on poop, like you're trying to get people enticed. And the meal underneath it is someone who doesn't like themselves.

Yeah.

And doesn't know what their value is. And so I can draw you in, but that doesn't mean that I have actually anything to offer you beyond what I've learned. And so he was saying that, like, they taught people to go out to Sunset Boulevard saddle ramp and do these techniques. And eventually it got so saturated that he would go up to a girl and do, like, a cold read, and she'd say, the dude, just five minutes. Go see the exact same thing as you. And it was like, it became corny and canned because everybody was doing it.

Yeah. No, I mean, I feel like we all know pickup lines, like, did you drop down from heaven? Or, like, you know, it's like, oh, my God, if you start with that, it's like, game over. And I mean, I feel like the Game was such an iconic book for so many men. And now when he wrote the Truth, it's like, yeah, I'm a sex addict, and everything I said was coming from for my insecurity. And I have a lot of mommy issues. And it was like, I wonder if that book became as popular.

Of course not.

I don't think so. Yeah. Oh, no. We don't want to know about the shit behind it. We just want to know about what fueled the insecurities.

How'd you get Britney Spears number?

Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot of great tips. Like, that. So one thing that kept coming up for people is online dating and then being ghosted. So it's such a huge thing with online dating because you. It's not a human that you're interacting with. So it's super easy to be like texting with someone for a while and then they disappear when. Which then can just run your mind into what happened. Was it me? Did they meet someone else? So I want to talk about the phenomenon of ghosting. There's a lot of ghosts out there.

Yeah, I mean, that's the ramification of an emotionally unintelligent society. And we. I don't say that as a judgment. I say that as an empathetic observation that we don't teach people how to be emotionally intelligent. I talk a lot, obviously, about sex education, but I'm also a big proponent of intimacy education. In kindergarten, when your best friend plays with someone else else, and you get this rage inside of you and your first thoughts of murder come up, it'd be nice if somebody explained to you, here's what's happening in the brain, here's how to manage this emotion, and here's how to healthily resolve this conflict, both exterior and interior. We don't do that. Like this really big component of our life, which is navigating our emotions and our feelings and how we can interact with others, we get no instruction on. And the problem, I think, is that we're continuing to improve the vehicle. Vehicle in which people make connections. The vehicle in which we can find love and friendship and jobs is improving. But the education on how to drive has not at all improved at all. And so you get people who get into these light fast apps that they can make 20 connections in 10 seconds, and there's the world at their fingertips, literally. And they don't have empathetic training. They don't have self insight, self awareness. They don't know how to love others as a skill. They don't know how to ethically connect. Connect. And those people are crashing and burning, and they're hurting a lot of people in the process. And so, yeah, ghosting is people not understanding how to, like, show up for somebody intimately when something isn't aligned with their expectations. That being said, that's for you to understand. That doesn't change the fact the reason why they're ghosting is because they don't see a fit with you. There's no other answer. Y. I am not showing up for you, and I am removing myself from you. And I haven't explained why, because I don't really know how to put those feelings into work words, but the feeling is, I'm not interested.

Right? And you can run yourself crazy trying to figure out why, but it's honestly none of your business.

You kind of should know why. I mean, here's the thing.

I think it depends what, like, how were you guys dating for a while? And then they go, so, yeah, you should know why. But if you were texting and you never met up in person, like, they probably just matched with someone else they were more interested in.

That's possible. But that's also kind of like if we take this, and I use jobs a lot in this book, but if you take this analogy of ghosting into the job market, so you're looking for a job and you've gone on 20 interviews and you don't hear back from any of them, are you going to tell that person, like, don't worry about why. Move on. You be like, you kind of got to find out what you're doing on these interviews. Right? Like, there's something that's going on with you, the way that you're showing up for these.

But I wouldn't expect every single interview to tell me, oh, well, we didn't like this about you. Like, they don't have time and they don't really owe it to me, you know, And I feel like we're like, well, why did it happen? And it's like, unless it was a relationship, I don't really think that person needs to necessarily explain. I think we're like, looking for validation and looking for, you know, something to make us feel better. But that closure could just be inside of ourselves.

I 100% agree with you. I don't think that you need the closure from that person. But you do need to observe the.

Trap that know why it keeps happening 100%. You write about, like, different reasons why people get ghosted in this book. Can you talk about some of them?

Yeah. So it's based on the book the Art of Seduction by Robert Greene. And so he talked about seduce seducers. And there's nine different think seduction types. There's also, I believe, nine anti seducers. And so it's acknowledging. So when you read this anti seducer list, I encourage people to do it twice, once do it and assign a name to each archetype. So the cactus. Oh, I got a girlfriend like that who's totally the cactus.

What's the cactus?

The cactus is the person who believes that they've got something precious to protect. So they put this spiky outer wall there. And so they think that people have to work hard to get to their nice side. And that works. Like I said in the book, in small towns there's limited options because I'm going to put in prolonged effort. It also works if I'm a conquest and I get around somebody who wants to get over someone's spiky wall because I have a specific goal in mind. And for a lot of people that goal ends up being sex. So the cactus doesn't really work in a society like ours where I could just swipe with someone else if I'm around you. It's not a pleasant experience. And.

And then I feel like that makes them more cactusy because they're like, people just want an easy girl. And then they're even like more angry and aggravated and more spikes and then just scares more people away. Exactly.

And it's just like, it's just the environment is just not as such where people are going to be incentivized to stick around with not great treatment. So that part of you that you're protecting should actually be what you're giving away.

But what if like you mentioned that you're a disagreeable person. What if you're just like that?

Gotta work on that. That's it. I gotta work. I have to work my ass off on that side of my personality and my disagreeable side. It's not all bad.

Like all can you share with agreeable? Disagreeable means yes.

So an agreeable person looks to get along with others. Their number one goal is for ease and for connectivity. A disagreeable person, their goal is to have their way or their vision acted out perfectly. And so disagree with people are actually pretty good because they're what create progress. A disagreeable person looks at the status quo and is like not, not doing it. Let's do it this way. They're the reason that's like not beyond meat instead. Right. Like that disagreeable personality.

That's your pitta energy, your fire energy. Yes.

But in relationships, the number one determinant for a successful long term relationship is agreeableness.

And so while who your husband is super agreeable.

So agreeable. So agreeable.

He's like the water.

He's so amazing. Everybody like no one dislikes Jared. He's such a joyful and I think being around him and seeing how easy his relationships were, how much people gravitated towards and people like working around him and working for him. He was always the favorite at every job. I've never experienced. So I was like, I Want that energy in my life. I want ease. And so he's been a great teacher for me. I still, you know, embrace my fire pitta.

Your pitta?

Yeah, teach me. I still embrace that side of myself, but I now know it's not necessarily like useful in every relationship. So yeah, you have to examine yourself and say there could be parts of you. And in the book I worked with six women, one of them Courtney, she's a black woman woman. And everything that she had done in her life was necessary for a black woman to survive and make a way for herself. Unfortunately, all of those incredible self defense tools, that strong headedness, that devotion that like clear goals, the no bullshit boundary maker that made her a successful career woman was actually stopping her from making good, healthy, intimate relationships. And so you have to examine not just what works for you in one area, but maybe how that might be stopping you from finding flow and fluidity in other areas.

I see that happen a lot, especially with people who grew up in single mother households that you needed to not depend on anyone else, you wouldn't survive. So you get this like Ms. Independent Energy, but then you don't have space to invite anyone in. And then you're just more, oh, these men can't, they're so lazy, they're so this, they're so that. And then you keep on manifesting that and attracting more of that.

Yes. And also I think it's single mom. You know, you have to be a bulldozer. You have to be very clear in your decisions. You have to be very strong in your communication. You can't be that flexible because you've got so much to do at one time. You have to make sure that when you do talk it counts. And so it's less about compromise and more about like this brute force leadership which is necessary to thrive in that role. Not necessarily what helps you make a good partnership.

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Yeah, it's like one of the preferred personality assessments by like majority of psychologists is my favorite one over Meyer's Briggs. And so it's easy to remember by the acronym ocean. And so it's O. Open. How open are you? C Conscientious. How conscientious, meaning how do you. Are you tidy? Are you good? Do you try and do what's right? E is. Oh my goodness.

Extroversion. Yeah.

Thank you, tag team.

I read your book.

Yes. E is extroversion versus introversion. And then a agreeableness versus disagreeableness. And then N is for neuroticism, which is emotionally stable versus not emotionally stable.

Okay, so open. What's like an open person versus not open person?

An open person is just down to try something new. They're high novelty seeking. I'm not very open. I'm pretty specific. And so I'm also someone that doesn't like going. I hate traveling. So I. I rank low on that. And I think that acknowledging that about yourself is helpful because even in past partnerships, I was dating a high novelty seeker where he loved going out, he loved be around people, which I think is fine if like we would have agreed to have different interests, like, leave me at home alone while you go out. Whereas in for him it was really aggravating because he wanted me to like.

Have a partner to go out with.

And yeah, so yeah, that's openness.

I feel like I'm high open.

Yes.

Going to Burning man in a couple days. Oh my God.

Yes.

Wide open.

Yeah, I try. I think like my dad is like very closed, like closed to new friendships. Like, and I watch myself slip into my dad and I have to like pump the brakes a lot. But I try and challenge myself, but I'M definitely one of those people who can get really set in my ways.

Okay, so see? Conscientious.

Yeah. And that's just like, how organized, tidy, clean. How likely are you to do what's good?

I feel like you're pretty conscientious.

I really changed this part of myself. I actually really worked my ass off on this part of myself, and I'm really proud of the results of it. It. Because even, like, Jared met me only in la, and I'm from Canada, usually. And when he met me, he was like, she's such a woman. She's so organized. She's on the ball. But, like, I decided to introduce that side of myself to him. When he met me and my family in Canada, he was like, oh, she's a mess. Like, in my family, I'm known as, like, untidy, disorganized, all over the place. Like, she's a shit show. And I moved to LA and made a conscious decision that, like, no, I'm not that person anymore. And so you can change these things, but, like, it takes a lot of work. Yeah, I feel like you're conscious, conscientious.

No, I'm low conscientious. And I'm trying right now. Like, I literally hired an organizer to come over because I'm like, I just can't do this alone. Like, even if I have to clean, I'll, like, have a friend come over to hold me accountable because I'll just hold on to everything and be like, I might need it one day. So. Yeah.

Oh, wow. No. I'm the queen of chucking things, dude.

My husband and I's biggest fight is I leave. So I'm also an environmentalist, so I'm like, I don't want to throw away the napkin. Like, I only used it once. I will keep napkins. So he's like, I cannot see napkins everywhere. So I have, like, a little drawer that I put in. I use napkins. He's like, dude, there's like, a show called Penny Pinchers. You should be on it. I'm like, it's not about the money, it's about the environment.

I actually relate to you on that, though. I am that person, like, Canadian in you. It's a Canadian in me. And it's like, maybe it's like, I have.

Like, he'll, like, use, like, a. He'll, like, drop a little bit of water on the napkin, be like, I'm done with it. I'm like, what? Or like, plastic forks, like, if they bring that to me, I will hold on to it until one day that I might use it. Like it's not going into the trash.

You know what this makes you a conscientious, because it's like, it's not conscientious, not tidy, but you're actually also really dedicated to doing the right thing.

Yeah.

So, like, in a weird way, it actually makes you very conscientious.

It's like, I will martyr myself.

Yeah.

So, yeah, the conscientious thing, his closet super organized. For me, that's a struggle. So it's good to know we can change it now. Extroversion, we all kind of know.

Yeah. Introversion versus extroversion. Where do you draw energy from? Do you draw energy from being enlarged by groups, or do you draw energy from being alone in small, closed environments? And there's a term called ambivert, which I love, which means that you have to be alone in order to perform extroversion. So that's me.

Like, I feel like I need a.

Lot of alone time, but I'm very extroverted when I'm out. But I get very exhausted from being out. Whereas in a true extrovert, I think actually gains more energy from being around other people.

100%. Yeah. I definitely wouldn't want to live my whole life in solitude, but like, 90% of my life. 90. Yeah.

So that 10%.

You can really be a rock star. But I want to be, like, on a stage with lots of people and then, like, disappear.

Yes, yes.

So, okay. And then agreeableness we talked about. And now neuroticism.

Yeah, that's just basically how much emotional regulation do you have? How much do your emotions run your life versus the other way around. And so a neurotic person is in many ways, like. I don't use the word victim, but is a.

What's looking for, like, overanalyzer kind of.

They're just like a. They're a passenger seat. They're in the passenger seat of their emotions. And so they might have a bad temperature, they might be very clingy. They might be prone to codependency. They might be prone to trust issues. On the attachment theory, they may be somebody who's not secure. And so an erotic individual is somebody who I would say is in the passenger seat of their emotions. Whereas in somebody who's emotionally stable, is able to make more conscious decisions around how they feel and how those feelings manifest via their actions.

I feel like this is like, the biggest issue I see with a lot of, like, single women that I. No, because they're overanalyzing the text. And, why didn't he call me back in this? And they're just, like, running these stories in their heads, and then they go crazy. Like, I had a friend who would, like, literally call the guy, like, 30 times in a row. I'm like, what is wrong with you? But. But she. It's almost like she can't help it. She needs the response. So see that happen?

Yeah. And that's something I would say. The thing is, like, a lot of these. The reason why I don't like astrology is because I feel like a lot of people use that as, like, these finite descriptors.

I'm a Gemini. I'm crazy.

Exactly. And it's just like. Or I'm a this. I'm stubborn. Or I'm just this. I'm so. I'm really emotional.

You can change anything.

You can change it.

Well, that's what I like about Vedic astrology. It's like, you may have been born with some propensities, but that doesn't mean you're stuck with it. In fact, the way that you move towards your dharma is to get over the karma, to get over what you were born with.

I like that a lot. Yeah.

So I do think it's important. And. And it's inspiring to see, like, someone who didn't start like that become that. And it just shows we're all able to change. Change.

No, I mean, like, my favorite quote is. It's my own quote. So what's the really loser thing of me to say? But it's. You are whoever you consistently decide to be, which, you know is based on Dalai Lama principle of thinking. Right. Like, you do have this consistent choice in whatever. We are creators at the core of who we are. Take away the blood, the flesh, the bones, the race, the skin color, the hair, the eyes. You are a creator. You are born to duplicate yourself. And so you can make whatever you want. And especially as human beings, we have this other. A beautiful conscious element. We have imagination. And so you're able to manifest your own reality within reason and limit. But even then, those limits are being challenged every single day. Exactly.

There's so much more we're in control of that we're aware of.

Exactly. Yeah.

Okay, so I want to talk about desire now, within relationships, how do you keep this dynamic, this polarity, this flirtation going up when you're married or you've been together for 30 years?

Yeah. I think what's wonderful is that again, like, we're biologically born to Bond, right? I'm born to be around you and excited by your new presence. Like my risk and reward center is being spiked. My dopamine, I'm learning new things from you. So all the feelings I'm having towards you right now, like I'm programmed to feel.

We're just falling in love.

We're falling in love with each other. It's great. It's the honeymoon phase. What happens is like there's this book that I love. It's called why We Love by Dr. Helen Fisher. And she examined love in the brain. In essence, again, like we're born to bond. And so we want. Your body wants you to make this fast connection with somebody. And so in the beginning of relationship, it's really on autopilot. Your body and your biology is doing all the work for you. It's giving you the butterflies, it's giving you those exciting feelings. It's making that person seem exciting and new and attractive. And you're even like naturally, like you're just turned on. Being around them through prolonged exposure, it just doesn't work that way. They no longer are a risk for use. That part of your brain doesn't activate around them. They're no longer a thrilling new thing. So you don't get a dopamine hit every time and now you have to manually do it. A lot of people don't want to do the work. They're waiting for that feeling just to overcome them. But what I loved about this book, it said that do you know that if your partner continued to give you that like rush of adrenaline, that burst of butterflies when you saw them consistently, it would shorten your life to lifespan. Because every time that you get that rush of adrenaline, that dumping system, it damages your tissue. And so if you continue to have this passionate, fiery love over long periods of time, you'd actually shorten your lifespan. So you have to like, it's nice to be at a place. You can now choose when you get turned on by your partner. You get to choose when you have those moments and that's when you try something new. I mean, a lot of the book, the quiz area I think is really important for long term relationships. Relationships. What's your partner's turn on trigger? What is their orgasm recipe? Right. Like what is their attachment style? What's their apology language? Now that I'm not waiting for my body to do all the work, let me figure you out and actually do literally what's pinpointedly best for you.

I love that. Yeah, love languages are super important. I know. I know Stephen. My husband's is physical touch. So I will like make sure I'm always scratching him. He needs to be scratched. But then it's also like acts of service, which I hate doing. He's like, like, I was like reading them the thing. It was like, if you're guy. If your comes home, like, what would turn them on the most? And it was like, I made you dinner. I was like, what the. That's your turn. That's never happening. Good luck. Figure that out. I'll be like, I brought you postmates.

Yeah, well, even that is great. Right?

He's like, no, I want you to do it.

Oh, he wants. Yeah. You to actually suffer.

Yeah. But mine is quality time. So it's. And then it's like he's the busiest person and so am I. So it's like, interesting because it's like, oh, how are we going to give each other these love languages that we really want? And. And it's like, in a way, it's sort of like a compromise. Like, I have to maybe make dinner. He has to take time out of his work to do these things to make that other person happy. Which if you don't know that, you just wouldn't do it.

You know what's fascinating? I was like, at this almost 30 retreat, they had a retreat and I spoke at it and somebody. We're talking about love languages. And someone's like, my love language is words of affirmation. And I. My preferred love language to speak is quality time. You're like, that's not how it works. You're not supposed to have a preferred love language to speak to somebody else because that's.

You have to give what they want.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I guess we can all have a preferred one.

I'm like, minus sending gifts, I'll send you a check. That's so funny. Okay. And then turn on triggers. What are some turn on triggers? You have five.

Yeah. So they're desire, which just means a lot of people just need to feel like you are so hot. I want you right now. Just that really direct language that affirms that, like, you are still sexy and hot as hell to me. Verbally. Verbally, yeah. I mean, I don't know how else you express desire.

Maybe like jumping on them.

Oh, yeah. It could be that as well too. I mean, mine is desire. It's a really big thing for me. I just have to feel sexy. And it doesn't matter what the environment is or how my partner looks like. I don't care about smells or anything else. So the second one would be environmental, which is. That's a person. Their five senses are really important. So the smell, touch, sound. Like, if it's a dirty room with like, you know, CNN playing in the background, they just can't get in the mood.

I feel like a lot of women when they become mothers, become like that because your senses are so turned on because of the baby that you're picking up. Oh, there's laundry on the floor. There's that. And that's why they can't, you know. Orgasm.

Yes. And also too, they're acknowledging that this is work I have to do.

Yeah. There's a book, come as you are. Have you read?

Yes, it's right here in this area somewhere.

But about how certain people are just, like, getting a lot more information from the outside world of like, it smells weird this, that. And like, men don't.

Yeah.

And they're like, oh, we're fudgeing and it's fine. And women are like, yeah.

I mean, I have a baby right now. I'm just like, I don't. It doesn't matter the environment, who smells or what. Like, my partner is really into. He's environmental. So Jane is, like, so different in this way. Like, if I like, haven't showered, like, I don't even. I like the smell of musty balls. It's my shit. But he's just like, I cannot. And if it's dirty or the wrong sounds are or he's really in tune. He's so empathetic. And it's like, look where we live. Do you know how many times we try to get on? He's like, we have to move rooms. Someone can see us. I'm like, what angle, bro?

They're like in a valley. Yeah.

He's just like, people can see. It's not.

It's not even the same way, too. I'm like, good, let him see. Yeah, let the. Turns me on more.

Yeah.

Okay. We keep going. And then I'll tell you, there's mental.

Which is like a sapiensexual. There has to be that mental connection first. There's cat and mouse, where mental is.

Like, you're, like, in a deep conversation. I feel like that's mine.

Yeah. Like, we have to really connect first. Yeah. Conversation wise. I just feel like we're on the same page here before downstairs is open for business.

Yeah, definitely.

Cat and mouse is where, like, it has to be some push and pull. The power dynamic, power play is really what turns you on. Negotiator those are people who, like.

So the power play one are kind of like BDSM people.

Could be. Could also just be people who just like playing hard to get, like, the conquest.

They like the game, like, the chase.

Right. They'd like to feel like they've won someone over. And so I know a lot of couples that I've talked to before where it's like, the dude is always pressing on the girl, and it's like, yo, if you just gave me 10 minutes to find my way to you. And cat and mouse is like, you know, with cats, you can't just go and start petting them. You got to give the cat the space to find you. It'll come to you if it wants to.

And if it doesn't, couldn't that be like, a trigger of, like, growing up with an avoidant parent? Yeah, yeah. This is the thing.

I think a lot of things, like, you can either change who you are or you can set an environment that allows you to be who you are and that to be successful and good enough. And so. So, like, some. For example, the negotiator is the person who's like, what are you going to do? For me, sex is not really what's enticing. Are you going to pick the kids up from ballet? Are you going to take the car to get gas? Are you going to pay for my phone bill?

Like, yeah. That feels so transactional.

It does. But also acknowledging that people have a low libido people. Not everyone enjoys sex or views sex as that important to them.

Do you think that some people were just born not enjoying sex or they just have, like, other areas of their life they really need to look at that are blocking them from enjoying sex?

I think that people just don't enjoy sex that much that people just don't. I mean, hormonally, right? Like, they just don't have the same hormonal function, the same rush of pituitary that we do. Of the glands that we do aren't as active. And so I'm working with this company right now about hsdd, which is hypoactive sexual desire disorder. And it's A lot of it has to do with brain chemicals versus, like, hypoactive.

So they don't have enough.

Exactly, yeah.

Is that like, coming more from menopause?

Could be. Menopause could be antidepressants, could just be.

For what?

I mean, this is the thing is that, like, we. We don't get. We give ourselves so much credit that, like, we're in total control of our feelings. We. I want to tell people all the time, like, if you think you're so in control of your sexual feelings, tell your pancreas to stop doing what it's doing right now. Tell your kidneys to take a break. You cannot, like, you don't have this masterful control over what your body is doing. And so you are a lot of the times at the will of whatever is going on in the background. So I think when it comes to sex, we put all this pressure on ourselves to have complete autonomy over it, but we just don't. So I think a lot of it has to do with body makeup.

I feel like, though, for the person who's receiving it, if, like, my husband was like, if you clean the room, I'll have sex with you. Like, that's not gonna feel good after. I'm like, you're. I'm ready. I feel like that's like a little puppy who just did a trick and is like, you get to pet me now.

Yeah. And it would feel that way. But if you found out that your partner genuinely has low libido, it's not what their desire is, or maybe they have some pain associated with sex and you recognize the fact that, like, that's their compromise for you kind of going to love. Love languages. Like, I go out of my way to give my partner, you know, physical touch because I know they give me quality time. And so I know my partner's sex language is not sex, their sex language. What gets them turned on is knowing that this bonding activity is going to lead something that they actually enjoy afterwards. And so it does suck. But if you kind of just reframe your mind, it does make sense.

Yeah, I feel like that's another thing. It's like, maybe you could change it if you tried, but some people don't want to. Or it's. It's a journey of rebalancing your hormones or whatever is happening, happening. So I want to talk about, you know, I was just talking to my girlfriend about it, how often long term couples have sex. And I feel like this is a really big issue in relationships because their expectation of we should be having sex every day or once a week or what that looks like can be different. So is there like any number or anything as a sexologist that you recommend.

For couples under 10 times a year is deemed an official sexless marriage. So if you're having sex less than 10 times a year, that's when I guess you're on, like, the spectrum, which.

Is really like, once a Month, pretty much. And missing some months. Like, I know some people who are like that. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm a big proponent of like, not all things are important to all people. In the book I talk about the frozen five, which is the five characteristics that are massively important for you in a partnership. And for a lot of people, sex is not on that top five list. And for those people, like being. If we and me are talking about our relationship and we're like, yeah, but you know, we have different religions or like, how do you do that? That's impossible because religion is so important for them. Whereas in maybe for you and I, like, we hear that they don't have sex. Like, how could you possibly do that? Like, it's so. I feel like it's a matter of what matters to you. Sex is not that high of a priority for a lot of people. It isn't what really recharges them. They don't feel their best self through it. All the above. Obviously that's not me because I study this for a living. I live to have sex, but not everybody feels that way. I think that's the greatest education I've gotten is that all forms of love and being loved are valid and they're not all identical, but they do all still have the same benefit and they can still be just as fulfilling.

So what is kind of the norm.

Two times a week is like the. To get the maximum health benefits and chemical bonding benefits of sexuality in a relationship. Two times a week?

I think certain duration of time or does it not matter?

No, I think mutual orgasm matters. I think that's kind of a primary thing or mutual satisfaction with the sexual connection at all. Most people are not having sex long enough or in this strenuous way to make it a calorie workout. But you just need to get that like rush of when you orgasm. You get an immunoglobin boost, your blood pressure goes down, you get better circulation, you release dhaa, which makes you look younger for longer. It helps you to sleep, it helps relax your muscles. And so all those health benefits happen within seconds, but you just have to engage in those seconds.

Yeah, no, I mean, I feel like an orgasm is the most underrated form of self care and healing. And you know, from a tantric and Vedic perspective, it's the moment that you realize the truth of who you are. Because your masculine and your feminine side within you, you are merging and you're experiencing complete totality. Like in that void, you're actually experiencing your soul. And that's why you know, in talk tantra, it's the deepest form of meditation. And I've been really like trying to be mindful when it's happening instead of like, oh man, I'm having a. I'm like d. Stun and like really like feel into that and be like, oh my God, this is who I am. What have you noticed from that? Oh my gosh. I mean, it literally is almost like unlocking codes within me. Like, I get downloads, I see visions, I expand energetically so much. And then also for manifestation, which is like a whole other conversation. But in like Isis is which who is an Egyptian goddess and sex magic, it was using the power of the orgasm for pushing it towards what you want. So let's say you're pushing it towards, you know, your love or towards an amount of money. It could actually be towards anything. But because it's that most powerful form of energy within yourself, you can push it towards whatever it is you're trying to call in. So it's. I don't do that amount, like $5 million. Fine. But there are times I do.

Wow, I'm wasting my orgasms.

Don't waste your orgasm.

They're powerful.

And even if you're not using it for manifestation to really like, just to notice, like, you know, most of us tense up our shoulders, everything gets so tight and like. And there's a really good book called Urban Tantra. I don't know if you've heard it. It's like a tantra book, but more for like just regular people. And it's almost like when you tense up like that, you're filling up a t teacup so you're, you can fill it up fast and it kind of will overflow quickly. But if you can keep breathing and breathing and relaxing, it's going to be. Take you longer to come. But it's like filling up a gallon jug or a five gallon jug and it's going to take you so much further and keep that orgasmic energy going even outside of sex. So that's really the journey I've been on, which has been really fruitful.

Sounds like a very fun journey. Yes, I take a ticket.

Yes.

Yeah, sign me up for that tour.

Yeah. But yeah, I really believe that so many women out there, I don't know what the percentages have, have never experienced orgasm.

Do you think 2% of women are an orgasmic, like, literally cannot? I think the percentage of people who have not tried or fulfilled their purpose is probably a little higher. But I mean, a lot of people there are People who literally just biologically can't do it. Majority of people, it's cuz they haven't found a way that it's best suited for their body.

Wow. So do you know what percentage like how many women are having orgasms when they're having sex regularly?

Durex Canada had a study on this and it was 26 of women in heterosexual relationships. It gets higher if you are a lesbian or if you are in like a queer relationship of some form. And then self pleasure is like in the 80s to 90 percentile. So that's to say people can orgasm, but they're not able to transfer those skills into a heterosexual relationship. Because majority of the way women orgasm, which is clitorally is not necessarily positioned as what sex is sex in heterosexual language. It begins with an erect penis and ends with a flaccid penis. And foreplay is supposed to be that bonus time for you that's optional. And for a lot of people that's core plates the integral part of sex for them. I think it's changing a lot. I actually think that that stat probably would be higher a lot now. A higher, more higher now because there's so much more education on there out there about women's sexual pleasure and how females in general experience orgasm. But yeah, it's still the orgasm gap is for every three orgasms men have, women have one.

Wow. It's crazy. So do you think that the reason is because we're just. We don't know sexually what makes us orgasm or we're just afraid to ask for it?

We don't. One, we don't know. Two, it's not affirmed in media, it's not affirmed in your even the novels that you read. But also too like there are one third of women who do orgasm for penetration. So what works for the man works for them. And the longer that they get that kind of focused stimulation that actually equals out for them. So there. I'm not to say that all women actually I was talking to a woman who was saying all this clitoris education is actually ruining my sex life because now my partners are so focused on that where I'm like, I just need the dick. And you're like yeah, like welcome to our world. We were on the reverse side of this this entire time. So it's communication, it's validating that whatever works for you is good enough. My number one pet peeve would women is who come to me who are like I orgasm this way, but that's not enough. How do I squirt? How Do I orgasm through nipples? How do I have a penetration orgasm? And you're like, did dudes ever do this? Do dudes put the pressure on themselves for their body to have 50 different releases? Or are they happy with the one that they have? And maybe they expand but like without pressure, like they like, I'll try something new with nipples or I'll try something with the taint. I'll try, but they're not like, ah, it's not good enough. My, you know, my ejaculation is not satisfying. I need to do more. So I wish that more women, if you, however you orgasm, start affirming that and finding ways to incorporate that in the bedroom. And don't put pressure on your body to be this multifaceted, multi orgasmic organ, because if it does, you're not going to get that way through pressure.

Yeah, it definitely comes in relaxing. And I feel like different parts of you unlock with practice and opening up. Parts of you that may not have been sensitive can become sensitive later. You may want to experience, explore anal nipples, other stuff that you know. It could have just taken a certain person or a certain setting or something to be like, oh my God, I actually really love this. And then maybe next time you won't.

Exactly. And that's the thing too is the reverse can happen where all of a sudden this thing that you used to love now becomes desensitized. And so enjoy what you have while you have it. Look for ways like sex to me is how good do I want to feel and how long do I want to feel that? That's it. Whatever happens between A and B is going to be different each time. And I give myself the space and time permission to not be predictable and to not be goal oriented.

So good. Well, there's so much sex stuff I could talk to you about. But what I want to wrap this up with is your own relationship. So you just got married last November?

December.

December, yeah. Beautiful, beautiful Lenga you wore.

Yes.

But your relationship with Jared started as like more of an. Not even an open relationship, more of a friends with benefits. So how did it transition from friends with with benefits to husband and wife?

So we are friends with benefits again. Going back to that formula of healthy intimacy is taking one tiny step forward, seeing how you feel.

How did you guys meet?

We met through Afion Crockett, who's a comedian. So we met through a mutual friend. So you met online dating. And statistically, meeting through a mutual friend is still number one. So it's like online dating is number two. In the ways to meet somebody. And I made the first move. You know, I. I saw him at the party.

I. Triangle.

I try, girl. Listen. He was in a relationship when I first saw him, but I was actually kind of coming out of something. And when I saw him, my first thought, like, oh, my God, he'd be such a great revenge. Like, he's so cute. He was so. Like, it was his party, so he just moved in a really confident way. And I was, like, trying everything. Like, I was dancing, I was talking to him, I was smiling and just was not catching. And so I was like, okay, cool. And I went home, and the mutual friend that we met through, I followed that guy on Instagram, and I was like, let me just go through his feed. And I scrolled and I saw a picture of Jared. And so I followed Jared, and I was like, oh, he's in a relationship. So I was like, oh, okay, cool. So it took an entire year after we met to actually meet up again. And it was just sort of slow. And when we got together, I had just officially finished my toxic relationship. And even though it was only a month out of it, it was like two years of breaking up. So I was really ready. And I had not been sexual with anybody other than that person for five years. And during those five years, I was studying sex for a living. And when you're in a toxic relationship, you don't necessarily get that sexual expression that you. You want. So I was like, I want to fuck someone new. Like, that was my intent. I'm like, I want to fuck someone new. I have all these new tricks. Someone got a benefit, and then you.

Turn into your husband.

Yes, that's exactly what happened to a T. And it was just slow and unintentional and without expectation.

Like, were both of you, like, I don't want to be in a relationship. This is just physical.

Yes. And then it was, were you hurt.

Because you wanted to be a relationship, or you didn't want that?

100 did not want that and did not see him as that person. I think that a lot of Jared didn't come. You know, I mean, like, he doesn't. Financially. We're not on the same level. We're age. I'm six years older than him. There's a lot of things that were just like, we're not on the same page. And so I would never have considered him in that way, but you're my little boy toy. And he was. And this. The thing is, I auditioned, like, 12 dudes aside from him. Like, I Would bring them over to my place, make out with them, and see how I felt. And he was the person that made out what that was.

What do you think about sex on the first date?

Yeah. I believe that sex needs two things. Consent and intent. And so consent, we have to say yes. Intent. Why we want to do this. If my intent is to make a connection, your intent is to get off. No, if our intent is both to get off. 100. Let's do it in the first date. He and I did not have sex in our first date. It took, like, maybe the third, but by that time, too, we had really cleared the intent up. That we're like, we're doing this because we think that we're both very physically drawn to each other, but we ultimately both emotionally don't want anything else more from this.

So then how did that move into relationship?

Yeah, it was just like, one day, maybe two months into it, he was like, I'm having a party for my friends to watch football. Do you want to come over? And I panicked. I was like, call my mom. I'm like, my buddy wants me to come over to his house to meet his friends and do some football party. What? I was like. So I called my friend. I'm like, you have to come. This is so weird. Like, I don't want to enter into the space where I'm coming to your house for parties. And. And I went. And it was fine. You know, he wasn't like, this is my girlfriend. He was, like, actually kind of just, like, talking to other people. I was like, this felt fine. So I'm like, okay, this is cool. So I went over a couple times, met his friends, and then I'm like, oh, I have this event to go to. My plus one dropped out. Do you want to come? And he came, and he was great. I'm like, this was fine. From now on, if I have an event, I'll invite you. And then I had to go away out of town from Canada, and I have plants, as you can see. I'm a. And so I'm like, all my plants are going to die. Like, you live so close to me. Can I give you a key? When I'm gone, can you come in and water them? And he did that. Came home, my plants were green. I was like, this was cool. All right. And it was just like, that. Slow progressions until. Next thing I knew, we lived together. And when we lived together, we were like, let's find a title for this, because this is weird. And that's when we came up with open relationship.

So was there ever a conversation like, are we girlfriend and boyfriend or more just like, you moved in and it then happened.

Yeah. I mean, all along the way, we were constantly having that. We're not. You know what I mean? Like, I was still seeing other people, he was seeing other people. And so we would always manage expectations. We weren't blindly, you know, just making assumptions. And I make this joke a lot that, like, in the beginning, Jared constantly managed expectations, which was healthy but also annoying after a while where we'd watch a movie about a relationship and you're like, oh, I don't want to be relationship at all. I'm like, oh, my God, bro. Like, I know. I heard you yesterday, you know, so he constantly, you know, it was healthy for me, though, because it allowed me to always create a lifestyle.

And I feel like a lot of women hear it, right, but they're not listening.

Yes.

They're like, I'll make them change.

Yes. And I completely was not interested in that. I was more interested in how do I create a successful relationship with you based on what you're promising you can provide. And a big part of that is pimping out my biology. So I was still. I wasn't physical with anybody else, but I was still seeing a lot of other people I would go to. The reason why Jared said he loved me actually, is I was in New York. I think I told him, like, I have a New York boo, so I'm going to hang out with him, go to a club, whatever. He's like, yeah, no, do your thing. No problem. And then there was this other dude that. From London who I was like, really, really interest in. And I was driving to the airport and I'm like, I have this buddy back home. Great. This dude in New York, like, I saw, had an amazing time. I have this London dude. Awesome. And I tweeted, I was like, I'm learning so much about love not being an Eros love, which is romantic love, you know, I'm learning, like, I have all these other versions of love in my life without it being that sort of intentional life partner love. And he immediately texts me. And he was like, is our love not right romantic? And I was like, yeah, but do you love me? Like, I've never heard this L word from you before. And he was like, yeah, I love you. And I was like, oh. And if I thought about it, I'm like, yeah, I love you too. And so that's sort of just how it happened.

So then you guys were then decided to be an open relationship. So you kept on talking to those other people, and he was talking to the others. Are you still in an open relationship?

Yeah, I think our relationship is, like, it's kind of, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. So it's kind of, I feel like, counterfeit, saying it's open because we're not engaging with other people right now, but the choice is there. So I think that for us, that freedom felt really good. I mean, he was really adverse to relationships because for him, flirting was such a negative part of his life, and the policing of flirting in relationships was such a negative part of relationships that it made him feel like he couldn't be his best self. For me, what I do for a living, like, I would literally have stage shows, and I'm, as you saw, I come out there, kick it, and I'm like, this is my pussy, you know, Like, I'm being very, like, sexual and carnal on stage. And I remember in my previous relationship, every time he would see me speak, it'd be an argument afterwards, like, I didn't feel respected by you. You didn't make me feel like I was the man. People looked at me like I was a joke. You were so touchy with that other person. Why were you so flirty? And so for me also, too, like, I didn't want to be suppressed in that way. I actually had a talk for Playboy, and I facilitated it, and I tied another dude up on stage. Stage. And afterwards, Jared was there, he filmed it, and we left. He's like, that was the hottest thing I've ever seen. That was so fun. I'm like, ah, my best, most freest self. My natural instincts, my choices are so affirmed by my partner. And so with that in mind, why would we feel the need to put restrictions on the other person?

I love that. Yeah. I mean, because for both of you, you are flirtatious people. And if either of you weren't okay with that, I mean, in a way that's blocking your. Your love. Language. Language. And it's almost fueling you even just, like, the play of tying someone up, even though it's not even leading to anything, it's just fueling you and creating more sexual tension between you and Jared.

I loved it. Yeah.

No, and I think a lot of people are, like, confused because they're. They're not sure if they're supposed to be monogamous, but they're not sure if they want to be totally polyamorous either. And it's like, there could Be this in between of like you're kind of flirtatious with other people but that's not that you're putting a hard rule of that's where it stops. But it's just naturally where you want it to stop.

I have this free quiz that's called the commitment quiz on my website. It's the gameofdesire.com commitment and in it there's nine different results you can get for what your ideal relationship structure is. And it kind of answers that question of yeah, like I want a one singular life partner, but I also kind of want to do threesomes. What's that called? Or yes, I want a singular monogamous relationship where there's no outside engagement with others. But I don't mind flirting on social media. I don't mind going to a strip club. What's that called? So you can still create. Language is so powerful because it affirms that what you're doing is, is okay and that others are doing it too. Because there's a word for it but also allows you to clearly communicate to other people exactly what you're looking for in a partnership. And I think if we had more of that, you'd have less people trying to conform to a style that does not suit them.

I love that. Super important. So that quiz is on and you have other things on the game of desire dot com.

Yeah. The free one is the the workbook and that takes two hours. It's lengthy as hell. The book is actually a truncated version of the workbook. Okay. But if you have some time and you're interested in doing it, they're not all quizzes written by me. Me. It's my favorite getting to know your intimate self quizzes. It's the gameofdesire.com workbook.

Love it. So closing it off with one word or sentence of advice you would have for your 20 year old self.

Oh my God. 20 I 20 exactly. On the nose I'd say keep going. My 26 year old self was an idiot. Like 20 I was pretty good. I kind of knew what my purpose was in this world. 26 I started to allow my insecurities to leave lead the way. So 26 year old self, I would say, you know what, sit down, sit down, open some books. You don't know it all and you don't have to lead with ignorance. You don't have to make decisions right now. More than anything else what you have to do is go backwards, sit down, refine that five year old version of yourself that knew what the truth was that knew what the good was and reconnect with that version of you. You don't have to be in constant motion.

So beautiful. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of these incredible tips and tricks and your wisdom and everyone. Go get her book. The game of Desire by Shan Boudram. Super good. I. I love it. Even though I'm in a relationship, I'm like taking notes. I'm like, okay, I need to do more of this in my marriage. And she has an awesome YouTube channel, Instagram. So where can people connect with you?

Yeah, all places, Shan. Booty. Booty with a D for my last name, not my anatomy. Just to manage expectations there. But girl. Thank you. This is has been such a joy. I really hope that this is not the end of our relationship. I know we just fell in love.

Just the beginning.

I don't want it to be like this, you know, honeymoon thing where we met and came managing expectations.

Yeah.

We just going to keep going. Yeah.

Well, thanks so much for being here.

Oh, thank you.

Oh, hell yeah. How epic was that episode with Shan? She's such a pitta fierce Durga Lalita Sundari goddess. And I'm so excited to have her and other incredible episodes expert guests in rose gold goddesses. So if you've not signed up yet, what are you waiting for? Head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com to sign up right away. Be connected with your spiritual soulmates and talk about this episode and talk about what came up for you and what are you excited about and where your blocks are and get support, get other perspectives and be part of something so much greater than just you. So head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com to join now and I'll see you. You in there.