223: Outer Order, Inner Calm with Gretchen Rubin

Namaste. My name is Sahara Rose and welcome back to the Highest Self Podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. Welcome back to the Highest Self podcast. It's so good to have you here. And I'm so excited for today's guest because you may have heard of her, Gretchen Rubin. She's someone I have deeply loved for many years, someone who's really inspired me. I read her book, the Happiness Project. Like, I don't even know when that came out 10 years ago. But she's such a cool person. It was awesome to sit down with her to talk all things cleanliness, order, things that don't come easily for me, you see, because some of us are minimalists and some of us are more maximalists. And I've fallen the more maximalist side, which we'll talk about on this episode. But we really dive into her new book, Outer Order Inner Calm, but what it takes to maintain an orderly home. And this may not sound like the.

Sexiest topic, but it's actually something that.

I have deeply needed this year because I've noticed just how much it enhances my mood when I am somewhere that's aesthetically beautiful. So I've really made it my mission, you know, since being married and moving into our first shared home, to make it as high vibrational as possible. So I'm buying plants and, you know, setting up little crystal and goddess sanctuaries and also at the same time, trying not to overcrowd the space. And we talk about how some people genuinely do love, like, a really good minimalist look. And I actually love how it looks. It's just not for me. I'm not someone who could live somewhere with just like, nothing, because I also really like the boho look of, you know, different colors and patterns and stuff going on. But I really apprec. Order. And I really appreciate, you know, not having to, like, look through a zillion drawers to remember where my things are. And that's what we dive into. Just steps that you can take to bring you more order. We also talk about Marie Kondo and how her method is different than Marie's method. Both are great, but I actually really resonate with Gretchen's method. As someone who's tried the Marie Kondo method and taken everything and, like, put it in one pile. For me, that felt super overwhelming because then I just. I really hate cleaning. I hate putting things in. I'm just so not that person. Which makes sense because in Vedic astrology, I'm a sagittarius which is like, I want to go on the next adventure and, like, do the next thing. Whereas in Western, I'm Capricorn. But I never resonated with Capricorn because of this reason, because I'm so not orderly. So for me to do the Marie Kondo method, it was so overwhelming that I was like, oh, I just kept running away. And then I had this, like, massive pile of stuff that just kept accumulating that. For me, it's a lot easier to just, like, every single day to just, like, go through, like, the things that are around, to just put them in the right place and just to like, go little by little, step by step. That feels way more sustainable for me. So we talk about how different approaches work for different people. So if you are somewhere that, you know, you want a more beautiful home space, maybe you just move. Maybe you want to move things around. Just the importance of just moving around your furniture or having something that inspires you. I went to this awesome workshop by these two guys. They're on some, like, you know, show. HTTV show. I don't even know what they're called, but they talked about how every room should have something that is reminding you of your past, present in the moment, and then also inspiring for your future. So that thing of your past could be, like, you know, that old leather chair that you've had since college that reminds you of your first paycheck. And then the thing of the now could be, you know, like a picture of your birthday party or your daughter's birthday or your wedding or whatever it is that's happening now and then something for the future, something you aspire towards. So maybe it's like, you know, something a little bit out of your budget, but you really love it. Or maybe it's something like, you know, you really want to change into a more boho look, but you can't quite commit to it yet. So it's like that one boho thing you got or the one minimalist thing, et cetera. So I really liked that. Each room having something of your past, your present, and your future. And it just goes to show that, you know, it's not about changing your style. It's not about going with what's vogue. I think, you know, that minimalist, bare minimal look is really in right now, and I think it really works with certain people. Like Gretchen was saying how it really works with her, but I don't think it's for everyone. But I do think having order works for everyone because it's just going to make you so much more calm when you know where your things are and you don't have to worry about it, because systems can really help make you feel grounded. And as someone that's really not good at implementing them, when you have them, you're like, oh my God, how have I not been doing this before? So without further ado, let's welcome Gretchen Rubin to the Highest Self Podcast.

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Welcome, Gretchen, to the Highest Self podcast. It's so great to have you here.

I'm so happy to be talking to you.

Well, the first question I would love to ask you is, what makes you your highest self?

I think it's reading. I feel like reading is the thing that is always reminding me of, like, aiming higher and wanting to grow and also energizing me for making the effort to be my highest self. Reading is kind of. It's my cubicle, it's my playground, it's my treasure map, it's my teddy bear. It's kind of. That's. It's the biggest thing in that for me.

Well, you're in the perfect career because writing a book takes a lot of rereading and of course, gaining inspiration from other books as well.

Absolutely, absolutely.

So I absolutely love your new book and your whole approach to having a clean home and how that's interrelated to our inner happiness. So can you share how our happiness is related to our surroundings?

Well, there are some few people who are truly clutterblind. And I would say my sister, who's the co host of the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast with me, is like this. Like, they really don't see it. They don't care. You know, if my sister lived by her, she would never close a cabinet door, you know, because she just doesn't care. But for most people, outer order really does contribute to a sense of inner calm. And even for people who are clutterblind, you know, we do. We project our identity into our environments. And so, you know, we tend to surround ourselves with things that remind us of the people and places and activities that we love. We feel like we're making our home or we're making our office. And so when what we see reflected back to us feels right and feels good, I love that.

And it's so true. I mean, just looking around my home, every single part of it is something that reminds me of myself. And we do really reflect our. You go to someone's home, you know, everything, it is about their character.

Well, and I think that's why it feels so good to get rid of junk. Because if things are mindfully chosen and they're there for a reason, you might have a lot of things. I mean, there are abundance lovers and simplicity lovers, and simplicity lovers want bare shelves and kind of empty cabinets and a lot of space. And abundance lovers love Profusion and choices and collections and a lot going on. But even for someone who's an abundance lover, like, having things that aren't meaningful, that serve no purpose, but you're like, I don't even know what that cord goes to. Or, like, I haven't used that rice cooker in five years, or that pair of pants hasn't fit me, you know, since Christmas. When we get rid of those things, then we can engage more deeply with the things that really do mean something to us.

And I love how you differentiate that, because I feel like I'm an abundance lover, but I really want to be minimalistic, but it's very hard for me. I appreciate going to a hotel where none of your stuff is there and it's so clean, but in my own home, I just. I don't think I would be able to do that.

But why do you want to be a minimalist?

Right?

I think it's just the idea of it.

Maybe it's very, very chic right now, but I think it's the idea of just that openness and the potential for what could be in that space instead of filling it up with things. But if you're filling it up with things that you love, then that's fine.

Well, I mean, I think there is beautiful emptiness, and, you know, I certainly love beautiful emptiness. And I love, like, an empty shelf, you know, like, to me, I'm like, oh, it's so exciting. I have a who. Empty shelf. But I don't think that it's better. I don't think everyone should try to be minimalist or, like, I'm constantly trying to force myself on my friends because I love to clear other people's clutter. It's like the contact high. It's all the fun and the excitement, but without any of the emotional draining that comes when it's your own stuff. So I'm constantly trying to go over to people's friends houses, and this friend of mine, she had a ton of clothes, and she really loves clothes. And she said she was very apprehensive, and she said, I don't want you to try to get me to get rid of too many things. I was like, you are not a person who should have a capsule wardrobe of, like, 15 items. I mean, some people that love that, and it's tremendously freeing. I've heard from so many people who are like, this idea is, like, the greatest thing that ever happened. It's kind of like the hotel. It's like, all we have here are the basics and the Essentials and you just feel good because that's all that's at your disposal and that feels good for some people. But I'm like, you love clothes. You like a lot of choices. You like seeing a lot of colors and a lot of styles and a lot of options. I can't take that. But I don't think I'm better than you. I think that we're just different. And I feel like abundance lovers bring a lot of beauty into the world and a lot of appreciation for. For objects and for craft and for mastery and I mean, I don't think it's better to be minimal. I just think it's better to know yourself. Because if you can say this, like, let's say you're sharing a household with somebody, if you could say, like, hey, I get you, that you're an abundance lover and I'm a simplicity lover. So how do we work this out so we both feel good in the kitchen. That's different from saying you have too much stuff. It's like too much according to whom. But nobody wants junk. Nobody wants an old stale bottle of spice that's been open for 15 years and that no one would ever use. It's like, okay, nobody wants that, but maybe you want a collection of salt and pepper shakers. I myself would not want to have a collection of salt and pepper shakers, but I think I love to see other people's collection of salt and pepper shakers. So it again, it's just like know yourself and what works for you and what you want your environment to feel like and then get rid of everything that you don't need, use or love. Because that's just going to get in your way from engaging with whatever it is that you want there, whether it's like one crystal vase with one rosebud in it or it's like a profusion of things as long as they're mindfully chosen.

Totally.

So do you see that people who.

Are left brained versus right brained have, you know, right brained people are more abundance oriented. Left brain people are more minimalist. Have you noticed this?

No, I have never really thought about it in that way. I'd have to reflect on that.

Yeah, it just came up for me. I was just thinking it's sort of like a feminine, masculine thing. Right.

But also those things don't really hold up because I know, I've heard from so many men who are like, my wife is so messy and it's driving me crazy. And I hear from a ton of wives are like, my husband is so messy, it's driving me crazy, you know, I mean, and then a lot of people are like, oh, I'm creative and that's why I'm so messy. But I'm like, I consider myself quite creative and I'm not messy. In fact, I feel like mess gets in my way and slows me down. And I think a lot of people feel that way. There's a lot of creative people who, you know, they just like, want one black. You know, their favorite black pen and their favorite pad of paper, and they got nothing else. And then there's other people who have piles of things and they feel like all this unexpected juxtaposition is what makes them creative. So I think a lot of times it just depends on a person getting themselves in the environment that works for them rather than, well, this is the way these people are. And like, if you're creative, then you're just naturally going to be like this. It's like, well, maybe, maybe not.

Very, very true. And it does remind me, are you familiar with the ayurvedic doshas, the mind body types?

Not intimately. Like, I've read it briefly, but. I know, but I don't know that well.

No, yeah, it just reminds me like the pitta, it's very fire and it needs that organization because it's very like, okay, things need to make sense. They need to be clear. Whereas the vata is very like, I want to see crystals and candles and all of these creative things around me. And then the kapha is very homely, so they want to see things that remind them of their family and their. And it would be interesting to correlate the doshas in their home environments, too.

That's interesting. There's a wonderful book called Daily Rituals by Mason Curry, and he looks at a bunch of super successful people, painters, dancers, scientists, writers, and he looks at just. He calls it daily rituals, but it's really daily habits. And what you see is that people have wildly different habits, but the thing that they do is that whatever is what they need. If they need a million pictures of their family around, then they make sure they have that. You know, if they need to go work in a shed with no windows, they do that. So maybe it is. It's about sort of recognizing how do you fit into all of these different approaches and then shaping your environment to bring out the best in your spirit.

So true. So for you to find your ultimate environment, did you kind of go through a trial and error of trying different things and seeing what felt Right. Or did you just intuitively know?

I just have always known that. I really just do feel better when there's less stuff and when it's. When there's, like, a lot of white space. And also, I'm a person. Some people this seems to annoy more than others. I'm a person who really finds it annoying if I can't find something. Like, I really begrudge the minutes that I take, like, searching for. I was just traveling and I couldn't find my, like, I had, like, a little jewelry bag with my, like, sets of earrings in it. And I was so annoyed. I'm like, I know exactly where this thing should be and it's not there. And, like. But they say that the average American spends 55 minutes a day looking for misplaced objects. Think if you could. If you knew where your keys were all the time, you could read a whole book in, like, a couple weeks. Yeah, that's a lot of time. And so, like, for me, that's it. To me, outer order is very tied to everything in its place. And, like, I want to know everything that's in my apartment and where it is. And to me, that didn't seem that remarkable. Like, do I have a hammer? Yes, I do. But some people have whole closets and under the bed and cabinets and cupboards and drawers. They have no idea what's in there. It's like, oh, I haven't looked in there in five years. It's like, well, then it's not doing you any good, you know, so go figure out what's in there. And if you don't want it, like, give it away or throw it away or recycle it or whatever is appropriate. But I like that feeling of, do I need AAA batteries? Well, I know exactly where those are. Or, you know, do I need, you know, a copy of our mortgage? I know exactly where that is. Where's the passport? Where's the Band Aid? You know? So I like that feeling. And that tends to go along with creating order because you have to know where everything goes.

Totally. And I think everyone wants to know where their stuff is. And the reason why they don't know is because they haven't prioritized the time that it takes to have designated spots and put things back where you found them. And it's really easy, as you write about in your book, to just have a pile of stuff that' not clean and not dirty, that you're just kind of putting there. So we need to put that time in.

Well, and it's funny Because I have seen this with a lot of people. Like, again, when I go over, I voice myself on them. I go over. There's a certain kind of person who just puts stuff away. They're like, oh, there's space for this. I'm just going to put this here. I'm like, what? I'm like, that's a travel related item that needs to be with the other. Like, that needs to go with your adapters and your passport case. And they're like, well, it just fits right here. I'm like, you know, like, blew my mind that you would just put something away. Like, it's got to be put away in its place. Like, where does it go? Because then it's much easier to retrace your steps later because you're like, even if I can't remember where I put my foreign country adapters, I know where they would go because this is the place where those things go. And so, oh, here it is. Even though I have no recollection of putting it here, or maybe somebody else put it here. That's the ideal situation. Right. Because then it means other people can put things away and you can find them, which is itself, like, enormously satisfying. Yeah. But this idea that everything is known and kind of slotted in is very satisfied.

Very much so. And then when you get your kids involved too, so your kids are putting things where they're supposed to be. So it's not like everyone has their own idea of where it should be. So I want to get deep into decluttering. You offer so many incredible tools for us in your book. So what questions should you ask yourself when decluttering?

Well, I think, you know, Marie Kondo is very famous for spark joy, and I think that's a great question for a lot of people. I have to say that I myself did not find it that helpful. I felt like there were many things in my house that I wouldn't say that they sparked joy, but they were like, they were like little useful objects in their way, you know? But I felt like that was kind of a high bar to have so much emotional reaction to something like my spirit.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I'm like, whatever. It's like it makes me happy that I have something when I need it. But that's. That didn't seem like that's really in the spirit of spark joy. I myself find a more useful test to say, do I need it? Do I use it? Do I love it because we have something that we love that we don't really need or Use, but we just love it. And I'm like, I think there's room in our. In our homes and our hearts for some things that you just love. Even though, you know, like, my mother gave me these vintage paper hats that are just like. They're just gorgeous. What am I gonna do with them? I don't know, but I just love them, and I just love looking at them. They're put away, but when I see them, I'm like, oh, gosh, I love those things. You know, I want to keep them. And then there's things that you use, and so the pair of scissors. That's just like an ordinary pair of scissors or, you know, these things. The ice scraper. It's like, yeah, I need an ice scraper. I don't really want to have one particularly, but I. You know, it's good to have one. And then there's things that you need. And I think need is like, sometimes people try to set a time limit. Like, you, if you haven't used something in a year, you should get rid of it. But I think that's a little bit unrealistic, because I think there are things that maybe we don't. But it's good to have them. Like, let's say you don't often go skiing, but you have a set of ski clothes or just, like, long underwear. Maybe you live in a place where you don't often need long underwear, but then every once in a while, you're gonna find yourself in a place that's cold. That's just something that happens to people in their lives. All of a sudden, they're in a completely different, you know, temperature zone. And then you're like, wow, I haven't worn my long underwear in four years, as it turns out. But here it is. It's like, I don't think you need to get. Or, you know, really fancy clothes. Maybe you don't often need a really fancy cocktail dress because the life you lead isn't. But you could imagine, like, well, I could see that I might get a new job, and they'd have a fancy office party. So y. Maybe I'll just, you know, I can use this. But if you don't need it, use it or love it. We're just recently still. You would think by now I would have run out of all these things. Just two weeks ago, I found this was at a top shelf, so it was out of the way, but I could still see that we had this enormous metal mixing bowl. And I thought to myself, well, you know, it's really good to have a really big mixing bowl that could really come in handy. But then I was like, okay, the reality check here is that I think we've had that thing for maybe 10, 15 years, and we've never used it, so how handy can it be? It's never been used. So let's get rid of this, because we don't need it. We don't use it. We don't love it. It's just there because we somehow acquired it. I don't even know why we have it. I don't even remember getting it. So that's the question I think is helpful. Do I need it? Do I use it? Do I love it?

I love that so much. And it really speaks on how you're talking about in your book that we have fantasies. Like, maybe in your fantasy world, you're making a fresh batch of cookies in that big bowl, but realistically, you're. You don't have time for that, so you don't need the bowl.

Yes, exactly. Yeah. The fantasy self is those. Those possessions can be very painful to let go of because it does mean that you're letting go of the fantasy. But it's also tremendously energizing and a big relief because often those things kind of weigh on our minds because we're not using them. And we have this feeling like, I should be doing it, but I'm not doing it. Should I be an entirely different person? Should I be the kind of person who makes a batch of cookies in a big mixing bowl even though I'm not? Maybe I should be. And, like, that kind of runs through your mind every time you see the bowl or the guitar that you don't play or the yoga mat you don't use or whatever it is. I almost bought. I was with my mom, and I was. We saw these linen cocktail napkins that were, like, really, really, really attractive. And she's like, oh, they're. They're on sale. You should get these. They're great. And I'm like, I almost did. And then I'm like, like, what am I thinking? Like, I would not. I would be scared to use linen cocktail napkins. I have no idea how to integrate these into my life. They'll just upset me if I see them on my shelves, because I won't know what to do with them. So, no, I will not. Even though it's a good bargain, I don't need them at all, which is an even bigger bargain.

Totally. And one that I see in a lot of people's homes is the unused exercise equipment, like the treadmill from 1990 has collected dust on it. And it's amazing because I think, like, especially before gyms were as common, a lot of people were buying personal training equipment for their houses and then never using them. But you don't want to let go of the fantasy of being that person who doesn't work out well.

And I think a lot of times people make the mistake of thinking that if they buy the equipment, then they'll use it. Yeah. And it's like, well, buying it is the easy part. It's definitely easier than getting rid of it because like, what do you do with that treadmill from 1990? It's like, it's not so easy to figure out what weighs a thousand pounds for one thing. But it's like, it's not enough to buy it. You can't buy something and think, okay, well if I have it, I'll use it. You know, you really have to know that you have a way of getting yourself to make use of it because otherwise the thing just sits there like gathering dust or serving as kind of a closet. I think a lot of exercise equipment is sort of like, becomes clothing stain.

Definitely. So can you tell us the difference between backward looking and forward looking clutter?

Oh, yes. So backward looking clutter is people who are like, oh, we had so much fun playing, you know, Operation, this board game, it's kind of broken and the buzzer doesn't really work anymore, but we should hang on to it because we had so much fun playing it. So that's backward looking. So these things are important because of the role, the role they played in the past. Then there's forward looking clutter. And this is like, well, this could come in handy. Yeah, you know, I look this pickle jar. This is a perfectly good glass jar. I should keep this because maybe one day we'll need a glass jar. Okay, now it is true that I already have 15 glass jars, but I'm gonna put this one here because this is like, I might be able to use this. Or there are also people who will buy things in anticipate needing them even though that need has not yet arisen, you know? Well, I'm gonna, I, you know, I think I should get some fancy stationery because probably I could use fancy stationery. Well, can you use fancy stationery? Because some people can't, but then some people can't. So you don't need to buy it. Just kind of like on the theory that everybody should have this thing because you only need something if you're actually going to use it. So forward looking clutter is about, well, this is a future thing that is going to arise. So those are people who often really want to be prepared. Buying a birthday gift with no one in mind, for instance, this would make a great gift. So I'm going to buy it even though I don't really know who would be the recipient.

So my mom.

Yeah. Oh, really? There you go.

We just had like a closet of like gifts someone's worth. They like pick one of the gifts.

We have and then. But was that useful or was it like there was too much? What do you think?

Definitely, definitely too much. And then kind of giving someone a gift that you're not really quite sure is for them.

Right, right. Because it's just in the cabinet. Yeah, right.

So definitely. I see a lot of people have both backward and forward looking clutter.

Yeah, I think they probably go together quite often. That's absolutely true.

So can you tell us about your idea, the bowl of requirements?

Ooh. This is one of my favorite innovations because. Okay, so what I noticed was that, and I mentioned how much I dislike misplacing things. I noticed that I was unusually likely to misplace things when I was traveling, especially when I was traveling with my family. I travel a lot, but then, you know, when I'm traveling with them. And I realized that the reason that this happened so much more was that when I was at home, everything went into its place. And my family is actually quite good about this too. So we knew where things were because they just were where they were supposed to be. And there wasn't that much stuff to keep track of. But then when we were traveling there, a lot of times there's things that do need to be tracked and they're kind of out of their usual routine, their little, you know, inanimate object routine. So things like airpods or sunglasses or hotel keys or a hotel map or something like sunscreen that you're using a lot. And this stuff would just sort of get lost and you'd spend a lot of time. And there was this one day where my husband put the hotel key on a window sill. Well, and then it was like, you don't look on a windowsill for a hotel key. And it was like lay flat. It was like perfect, you know, camouflage. I was like, okay, we got to find a better way for this. So whenever I travel, especially when I'm with other people, I find a bowl or a tray and usually in a hotel room, you can come up with something and then everything that's important goes there. Anything you might require goes into the bowl. The sunglasses, the hotel key, the hotel. All that stuff goes into the. And also important, if you see that someone has put something down that should be in the bowl of requirement, you put it in the bowl of requirement. If you notice that. Because a lot of times I would find myself sort of thinking kind of in the back of my mind, like, that's kind of a weird place for the sunscreen to be. You know, like, I wouldn't have thought to look at the side of the bathtub. But then I kind of go on, and then I'm like, gosh, where did I see that sunscreen? It was someplace that it shouldn't have been, but I can't remember where. And then that's just very annoying. But if I'm always like, oh, this doesn't belong in the bathroom. This should be in the bowl requirement. And people just start dumping, you know, loose change, a wallet. They just start dumping their stuff in there. And it just. It makes it so much more relaxing to travel.

I love that so much. Having it in your house, having it when you travel, like, everywhere you go. My mom always carries, like, a fanny pack with her, and I make fun of her, but it's sort of like a little portable bag of requirements. She has her stuff on her.

Yeah.

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What are your thoughts then on souvenirs? Like a lot of especially kids, when they travel, they want to pick up something from that place that they go, but then you just end up with a bunch of pots from Mexico and Thailand. What are your thoughts?

Well, I think souvenirs are tricky because a lot of times the stuff does look much more appealing in its place than it does when you get it home. And so then it sort of is even really something that you want, but then it's like a souvenir. So then what do you do with it? I think it's. But I understand the impulse of wanting to have something to memorialize the trip. So it's good to think of something that maybe is very small and easily portable that you can use. So for instance, some people like spices. So like I'm going to go to Morocco, I'm going to get some spices and then it's fine because I'll bring it home. It gives me something to buy because I think some people like to go buy and then I can cook with it when I get home. And that kind of reminds me of my trip and that's fun. And then it gets used up. So that's kind of a nice kind of souvenir or something like a postcard where. Okay. Oh, we had this amazing time doing this XYZ thing. Let's write a postcard of it and then maybe we can have a box of postcards or maybe we could even on the back, write down, jot down a few memories. But oh, we went to the London Eye. It was so fun. But it was hilarious when so and so dropped their ice cream cone on the floor. Just write that on the back. And then it really is like a lovely memento. It's a picture, it's a memory, it's something that you bought. I mean, some people really do like the process of going shopping in a new place. I myself do not feel that, but I know that many people do. So you just want to channel that desire into something that isn't going to overwhelm your home. Or like just say you can pick one thing, you're not going to bring home 10 things. Or however you can limit it for yourself and pay attention to what you enjoy looking at later. Like I went to, we were in France and I, I don't even eat candy. But there was just this really, for some reason, beautiful candy box. And I thought, you know, it would almost. That could be like a fun set of souvenirs. It's like interesting candy boxes from around the world or, you know what I mean? It's like they're small, they would look kind of look good on a tray. They'd each be full of memories. It's not the same thing as like you say, like, oh, let's buy a five piece tea set where it's like, okay, where is that thing gonna go? It's going to take up a lot of space.

Love that.

Yeah.

I love the postcards idea because it's something tangible. I always tell myself, well, you taking pictures, there is a souvenir. But I like the idea of because going to a market, I love going to markets and being able to pick something and have it. I think that will take off your desire to purchase something in a way that's not going to create more clutter.

But speaking of taking pictures, it's very interesting and this is something that I've become increasingly interested in is, is the relationship between the pleasure of acquiring something and when that pleasure can be satisfied by Taking a picture of something. So how many people have told me that people who love to shop will do this thing where they go online shopping and they'll fill their basket with all their favorite things and then they just abandon it and they never intended to buy. It's just. It's fun for them to be like, ah, okay, I'm going to get the lavender blouse, because that would look great with those. They just like that process of sort of. It's like they don't need to actually own it. They just want to sort of claim it. And I think there is an aspect of taking a picture of something where you're like, it's a way of claiming it in a very satisfying way. But then that doesn't take up any space at all if you're like, oh, I have a picture of that. So maybe I. If I have a picture of the market, like a couple cool pictures, maybe I don't actually have to bring home something from the market. It's just fun to go. I think sometimes people feel like, well, what's the point of going if I don't buy something? I'm like, it's fun to go. Like, all these people told me about going to a grocery store in a foreign country. This is like the greatest thing of all time. I don't know how I had not known about this. Go to a grocery store in a foreign country. It is fascinating and so interesting to just go to a grocery store and seeing what's the same and what's different and, like, how this stuff is packaged and what the colors are. But it's not like you have to buy a basket full of groceries. You could just go and look and, you know, maybe buy one little thing. But it's still fun and it still gives you that feeling of I'm in a new place, that I'm taking in a new culture.

Totally. I love going to different grocery stores. And yeah, I do think having that picture, at least you know that that moment will live on. And that's really why we're. Why we're collecting things to begin. So I'd love to know, for people who love, you know, they love crystals, they like flowers, they like things. How can we add beauty to our space without crossing that line of over cluttering?

Well, that is a great question. And I think part of it is the mindfulness. So let's say you love crystals. It's like, but do you love them all? Equ, Maybe you can pick your favorites and say, okay, well, if I have three favorites, then I will really enjoy them and engage with them more than if I have a whole bunch where they're all just kind of, like, indistinguishable. And also, I think when you really purposefully pick something, I think people do often really like that, that curation feeling of, like, I'm going to pick the best, or I'm going to think about how these things are the same or different and then choose the ones that I present to myself or I present to the world. And those are going to stand out more if they aren't in a jumble. I mean, it's the same thing with anything. It's like if you have a hundred family photographs crowded onto a mantelpiece, they just fade into nothingness. If you have one beautifully framed photo, it's much more likely that your eye will fall on it and you'll actually register it because it's not lost. It's just like, a bunch of stuff. I think another thing is, like, visual noise. And again, people have very different susceptibilities to this. But when you feel like your eye is just, like, glazed over as you're looking at a certain area because it just can't be taken in. Like, some people's refrigerators, you know, they just accumulate so much stuff that you can't even make sense of it. And it's just like this, like, cacophony of things. I think that's a place to stop and say, okay, can I clean this out? So that certain things stand out very vividly? Because I've gotten rid of all the stuff that's kind of creating this noise that's drowning out what they're trying to say to me.

Love that so much. And I do think that there is such beauty in the process of curating and choosing what do I, like, what really is important to me. And it gives you more involvement with your things than them just sitting there on your shelf.

Yes. Well, one thing Marie Konda says that I think is very wise is that she says you should touch everything. And I think there's really something about that. You can't just, like, open a closet, be like, oh, this stuff is all good. It's like, if you really handle it, then it kind of forces you to. To be like. Like, I did this recently with a shelf of paperbacks. I love books. I have, like, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of books. But when I pulled it off the shelf and I realized this paperback is so old, it's just falling apart, you couldn't read it because just Opening it. The pages are starting to fall out. If I was going to read this book, I would check it out of the library. You know, if I was going to reread it, which I might have. But I'm like, I wouldn't reread this because it's just. It's just in such poor condition. So I can get rid of that. It's not. I can't even give it away. It's just recycling. It's just paper now. And so I do think that. And I think you're exactly right, that that is that moment of engagement. And then that makes it easier to, like, either love it or then get rid of it some way.

Love that. So what advice do you have? If your partner is maybe a minimalist and you're a maximalist, how can you live in the same house?

That is a great question. Okay, so this sounds very improbable, but stay with me, because over and over that I've seen that it's true. If you feel I'm thinking about the person who wants things to be more orderly, or are you talking about the person who doesn't care about order as much?

Both.

Okay, well, if you're the person who craves order, because usually those are the people that are complaining the most. Like, they feel like there's too much stuff, it's too messy. I can't find anything. Like, you know, here is the weird thing. If you truly. With your own things that are within your own control, like, you know, your desk, your closet, everything you can truly control on your own, do you really have outer order in your own things? Because very often what I find is that people are like, you know what? You're messy, you're messy, you're messy, you're messy. But then I take a look around and I'm like, you're mess. I don't understand why you think you're the neat one. Because nothing here suggests to me that you're particularly neat. And part of this is because our own clutter feels natural to us. Like, well, of course it makes sense that I've left this, you know, needlepoint project out, half finished, for two months. Because at any point I might pick up that needlepoint. I mean, that makes sense. But you're, you know, the crumbs on the counter that you just made. Okay, that's driving me crazy. It's like, okay, well, the crumbs have been on there for like, 15 minutes. I don't understand why I'm the messy one and you're the neat one. And I just went through this with a friend of mine who was complaining, complaining, complaining. His wife is so messy. She's so messy. She's so messy. And he was saying, like, oh, she's mad at me because there are these tasks I'm supposed to do, and I sit down at the kitchen table to do them, but then I have to spend 45 minutes cleaning up the kitchen before I can focus because I can't stand things being messy. And I said, well, maybe we could find someplace in your house. Like, there's a desk where you could sit or something like that. And he said, oh, well, I have an office. I was like, why aren't you sitting in your office to do your work? Do you want to be in the middle of everything? Some people, like, are very social, and they want to be in the middle of everything when they're kind of doing their work. He said, no, it's not that. I don't need anybody to be around me. I'm like, well, then why aren't you being in your office? Well, what was his answer? It was too messy. His office was too messy. He's like, I can't concentrate in there. It's so messy. I'm like, well, my friend, you don't have to dunk on your wife. Clean up your own office. And then when you need a calm, clear place to work, you can work in a room that has literally been set aside for you. It's totally within your control. So I got him totally fired up with it. I am kind of a happiness bully. That's why on the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast, my sister calls me a happiness bully. And he spent five hours cleaning up his office. Office. And he had four giant trash bags of stuff that he got rid of and, like, moved around his house, you know? And he said, oh, but you know, the one thing that's a problem is my coats. I'm always throwing my coat on the floor. And I said, well, why didn't you hang it up in the coat closet? He said, well, my wife needs the whole thing. And I said, well, how big is it? It turned out that wasn't that big a coat closet. So, you know, women have a fair number of coats. I was like, okay. I'm like, well, where are you supposed to put your coat? He goes up in our bedroom. I was like, okay. I don't think it's that realistic that someone is going to actually keep their daily coat hung up on a floor closet. And I'm like, is there no other closet? Or maybe you could put a hook in the garage or like, what is this? Like, he lives in the suburbs. So I couldn't, like, I didn't exactly know what his house was like. He goes, oh, we have a mudroom. I said, why don't you hang up your coat in the mud room? And he said, because it's too messy. I'm like, why don't you clean up the bedroom? I mean, so. But again, his whole posture was, my wife is really messy. But actually he hadn't really done anything to contribute to every. Even in his own space or like in a shared space, like a mud room room to really clear clutter. So I think sometimes it really can bring you a lot more peace when you get rid of the things that you can control. Because sometimes you can't get like somebody's like, oh my gosh, I got my giant salt and pepper collection. I'm not going to get rid of this ever. But if everything else is that you can control is more tidy, then a lot of times your tolerance for that abundance is very much expanded because all that other stuff that you can't need, use or love is out of the way. And so the abundance doesn't cause you that feeling because you're looking at the salt and pepper shakers and you're like, that's my problem. But actually it's the mud room that's the problem, you know, or it's like the fact that you can't close your T shirt drawer that's giving you that feeling of kind of oppression and overwhelm.

Totally. And I think it's easy that when you see someone else being messy, you think, well, what good is it for me to clean because the other person's going to mess it up anyways. So you just give up.

Yes. But here's another thing though, that I think is just kind of a fact of human nature. So I'm very. My husband and I are very much the same, which I did not appreciate until I wrote this book. How kind of unusual that is. It's pretty unusual in a couple that both people have the same tidiness level. Usually one is very different from the other and that's often a source of conflict. But if you are the kind of self declared neat one, I think you have to acknowledge that the person who is on the messier scale is probably not the person who is going to either have the inclination or really the ability to do things like, let's pull out all the plastic containers from the cabinet and like really take a look at them. And get rid of the ones that are warped or that don't have a lid or that are just so nasty, no one will ever put food in them again. Let's get rid of those. And then, like, let's order these by size and let's stack up the lids. And now it takes up, you know, a tenth of the space that it did. If you're the, quote, neat one, I think you have to say, I probably am going to have to take the lead on that kind of thing. Or like, my friend, again that I'm talking, I love this guy. I don't know why I'm, like, holding. Holding him up isn't. It is a bad example because he's a lovely guy, but he was like, oh, another reason my wife is so messy. My wife, my kids, they never put anything away. My daughter has 50 stuffed animals, and she only plays with two. I'm like, okay, well, why aren't you the one? You're the neat one. You tell me. Why aren't you the one sitting down with your daughter and saying, hey, honey, I don't think you play with all these stuffed animals. Maybe we could put them. A lot of times children, we have this idea that children won't give up any of their toys. And that's true of some children, but many children are very. They like going through their things. They like organizing them. They sort of. They engage with them more. And a lot of times they're not reluctant to let go of something, especially since children like to get older. So they're like, I don't want to play with this My Little Pony, because now I'm like, big. I'm like seven years old, you know, and so a lot of times it's easier than you think. But again, I'm like, you say everybody else is messy, but what have you done to deal with the 50 stuffed animals other than just kind of cross your arms and complain if you're the neat one? And I think he's right that he's the neat one. And she and his wife really is messier. That's just not the way she thinks. It's never going to be a priority for her. She wouldn't, like. Like, it's not the way she approaches the world. It is the way he approaches the world. So I think it's like, if it's bugging you, you kind of have to. That's not the way. The one who's going to sit down with the stuffed animals, it's kind of on me. If it's bugging Me. And I think, you know, it's not. It's a lot of times you get a lot of energy and a lot of satisfaction out of doing that. And so I just say, focus on how great it feels and kind of take the lead on that sort of task. Even with my husband, who's pretty tidy, as I say, like, he doesn't go through his closet unless I say, hey, let's go through your closet, closet. Then he'll do it. But it doesn't really just. It just doesn't occur to him unless I kind of nudge him in that direction.

I love that so much. And it is really important to take the lead. So do you think that we are born. Can we project our own cleanliness style on our children? Like that kid with 50 stuffed animals, is it right to take away from them?

I wouldn't take them away from him. If she's, like, crying because she, like. I mean, a lot of kids would play with 50. My own. My daughters play hospital. And they would lay out in our dining room. They would create kind of this tent with the dining room table, and they would lay out all their dolls and pretend to be like, almost like plague doctors, you know, ministering to all these. You know, that would take 30, 40 dolls and stuffed animals, and they'd be busily doing their thing. And so they really use them. So I wouldn't, like, deprive them of it if it makes them very sad. But a lot of times they wouldn't even notice. You know, I have a friend who. Her whole thing was she would put things in storage because they lived in an apartment, so it was very common for them to put things in storage. But then she just got rid of them, and her daughter never, never followed up. It's just like, okay, that thing's just gone. But I am fascinated by that question of, like. I think I'd be curious to know what you think. I think a lot of it we just bring into the world and that even if we are not that at a certain point, it just. You are who you are. And it doesn't like. I don't think anything that my parents could have done raising me would have. I think I just am who I am. And I don't. Unless they. It had been like some extreme, extreme situation. And so I think parents get very upset when they're like, oh, if I don't really discipline my child, they're going to be a terribly inconsiderate college roommate and incredibly messy. Like, you know, I think a lot of it is Just sort of like you get what you get and you don't get upset. And some people are messy. My sister's incredibly messy. That's she's always been that way. On the other hand, there are people who you see reacting strongly against their childhoods. Like if they had parents who really had lots and lots of stuff or were almost like hoarders, sometimes those children want almost nothing and they really. I've talked to a lot of people where they really are disciplined about having as little as possible because they just associate it with like kind of a suffocating feeling or people who weren't allowed to have that much as children. They will want things because they're like, I can't have them as adults. And sometimes even I've talked to people who are like literally buy toys. Like I couldn't have this as a child, so I want it as an adult. And so they'll have toys because. And not like their childhoods were like exceptionally deprived or something. It was just kind of, you have a very simplicity, lover, parent. There's a lot that they don't want to have around. And so then sometimes this child with more freedom will react against it. So I think it's complicated. I don't know. What do you think?

Yeah, I mean, I think that sometimes, you know how with twins like you take the other stance if the other one becomes more introverted. So there could be a thing with siblings, like if one's really messy, the other is like boycotting the messiness and become super clean. So I wonder if that juxtaposition happens often or if it's more like you just follow the parents. But I do think a lot of it is innate within you because you see some kids from the get go are really clean and others are just, it doesn't really, it's not a priority for them.

Well, and then there's also things like executive function, which for some children kicks in early in the. And some children have to be more mature before they have executive function because a lot of orderliness is just like, I'm not going to just jam my paper into my backpack, I'm going to put it in a folder. And then every night I'll take out my lovely pile of folders and put them on the side of my desk. To some children that comes very easily. And then for some children as adults they might do that, oh, here's my folder in my briefcase and everything. But they weren't like that as an 8 year old. So I think part of it too is where Are you in kind of the executive function that most of us go through?

So true. So the last question I'd love to ask you is what do you do with the stuff that you're getting rid of? I've been seeing my mom. She's been getting rid of the stuff in our house for the past like 10 years and she gives it to other people and then they're just taking on a bunch of trash that they probably don't need, which probably isn't the best thing to do for them either. So what do you do with your stuff?

Oh well, I want to ask you about that a little bit because I'm very fascinated by that. Does she like give it to them as a present so they can't say no or does she call it them up and like how, like what? Give, give some examples of the kinds of things she would do?

No, like she'll be getting her hair done and then be like, do you.

Want all this stuff?

And they're like sure, like they don't know what's in it. And then they'll come with a truck and pick it up and just take all the stuff that they've never seen. And like, I'm like, who is this transaction? I mean, I don't know if they maybe sort through it and then decide, but most likely it's just going to end up sitting in their house and sitting in someone else's house and it's just this like pile of free stuff that no one can say no.

And so does she, does she give it to people who sort of feel like they can't say no?

People who are in need mostly.

Uh huh.

But I don't know if it's exactly what they need.

Right, exactly. Well that's interesting. I've never heard of exactly that before. That's fascinating. Well, I think that there's a very strong impulse in us and maybe this is what your mother is showing. We like to give things to somebody who needs it. And I think one of the things that makes it a lot easier to clear clutter is that if you know where it's going, it's much easier to let go of it because you know, it's like giving a hand me down if you know, oh, this child is just the right size and I have all these clothes that are just going to be perfect for that child. It's tremendously satisfying to hand it over because you know that somebody's going to make good use of it. But when you're sort of just giving it away, I Think sometimes people feel like, well, I don't know what use it's going to be put to in my own life. Something that happened, like, within the last year that's like the greatest thing of all time is Housing Works, which is a thrift shop here, and it's in New York City. I. I don't know if they have it across the country. Opened up one block. I mean, not even a block from my house. I mean, like, right around the corner from my house. Right around the corner. And they accept books, which all thrift stores do not do. But Housing Works kind of specializes in books. So this is like the greatest thing of all time because I can just, little by little, get rid of things. It's not like I have to have a whole truckload because it's just there. So it could just be this drip, drip, drip. But I think you do want to figure out. Out where it's going, and that can be challenging because, like, a lot of places won't take toys. I remember when we did a huge clutter clearing when my younger daughter sort of aged out of kind of the whole Fisher Price kind of time. And what we found was that a woman's shelter would take those things. And so we drove over a whole thing, and I tell you, we were still unloading the car, and mothers were coming right running to grab the good stuff for their kids at this women's shelter. And I mean. I mean, how could I begrudge the Fisher Price farmhouse when I think, oh, my gosh, how excited this mother is to have this Fisher Price farmhouse for her child. Why would I leave it on a shelf in my house where no one's going to play with it, you know, and so that you see how that connection really does make people eager to give things away. But I just think if you have something and it's. You're not using it, like, let it go out into the world where it can do more good for somebody. I mean, there's just no way that metal mixing bowl, I mean, it's doing nothing in the world. It's the same thing as me just lighting it on fire in a backyard because nothing is happening with it. Whereas if I give it away, I don't know what's going to happen to it. But something is likely to happen to it. When you know where it's going, it's easier. But I do feel like sometimes people, they hang on to things until they can find the perfect recipient. And you just might not know the perfect recipient like your mother. She's Just sort of like, I'll let you figure it out. And that might be because the emotional pain of letting go of things is hard for her, so she just wants to like, do it all in one swoop. And yet it's not. Sometimes people give away things that really, they should recycle or discard because they don't want the pain of admitting that something's no good, which also happens. People like, don't want it to go into the landfill. Even where that's like. It's like a broken umbrella. It's hard to see what's going to happen to that umbrella other than going to the landfill at some point. Point.

Oh, my God. Sometimes I think about just working at Salvation army and what a stressful trough.

That would be because I know much.

Stuff, half of it's probably broken. Like, I would just get a panic attack if I worked there.

I know. You know, I would love to see some profiles. I bet you could also write a really interesting article comparing what stuff is at. Which ones, like, across the country, like, the balance of stuff and what they give away. And I mean, I bet there's very interesting. I bet you could get a lot of interesting insights into community communities by like, this community has tons of cookie cutters. Yeah.

Like Christmas decorations.

Yeah. And then this other one, like, I remember somebody I know who's very, very thrifty was telling me that she went to this thrift store in upstate in Westchester, which is like a suburb of New York City. And she said, oh, well, but I couldn't shop there because everything was a size 2 or a size 4. I thought, well, that's interesting. You know, so it's kind of like, like demographic information being generated. But I agree, like, figuring out what is what to keep. Because I think people do er on the side of giving away things that, okay, nobody's gonna want that, you know, and so they have to be the ones to let it go. And I bet that is stressful. I bet it's emotionally draining to be like, nobody wants to use this George Lerman grill that's covered in fat. Like, I gotta get, you know, this thing, it's over. You know, it feels bad. You want to have things be put to use.

Yeah. And I think a lot of us, we feel bad when we haven't properly used it. It's the grill that we've never even opened. We're giving it away. Like, oh, God, it's a horrible thing to admit to yourself.

I love wearing things out. Like, I used to be very puzzled because I would actually get a sense of satisfaction when there'd be, like, a hole in my sock or my underwear or like, we wore through the carpet on our stairs. And it gave me such pleasure to look at it. And I'm like, that's so weird. Like, why do I like seeing a hole in my sock? And I realized because it made me feel like I using things up. I like that feeling of things being put to use. And so I'm like, oh, well, no one could dispute that. I mean, wearing these socks because I've literally worn a hole. We've gotten our good use out of this carpet because it's actually wearing out. Because, yeah, that be surrounded by things that aren't used. It's kind of a. It can be an almost like glutted feeling, which weirdly, I think sometimes people address by going shopping. You know, it's like that weird cycle.

It is so good. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom with us. I could talk with you about this.

I know. It's so fun to talk about this subject. It's fascinating.

So fun. So where can listeners pick up your new book?

Anywhere they buy books. If you. And if you would like to read a sample of it or listen to a sample of the audiobook, that will be on my website, GretchenRubin.com and I have a podcast, Happier with Gretchen Ruben. And when my. As I said, my sister Elizabeth is very messy. She's my co host, so we talk about this a lot. And she represents the other side. So I'm on social media, everywhere is Gretchen Rubens. So I encourage people to get in touch if they have thoughts or questions or observations about outer order or happiness or habits or anything else like that. Human nature.

Well, thank you so much for all of the incredible work that you're putting out there into the world. And now I am really itching. I'm like, thinking, how big of trash cans do trash cans do I have to start throwing stuff away right now?

Doesn't it get you psyched up? It does. I love that feeling. You're like, oh, my gosh, I know exactly where I'm going to start. Oh, that bottle of shampoo, it's three quarters empty.

And then when you start and you don't want to finish and you have bags of stuff all around your house, and you're like, oh, why did I start this right now? I'm too busy. It's like, you got to get out and you got to get in.

Well, it's funny because one of the things that I write about in the book is that things often get messier before they get tidier. And you kind of have to just sort of brace yourself for that because it can be a little discouraging as you're working through it, but it's totally worth it.

Totally. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us and we look forward to diving into your book soon.

Thank you. So great to talk to you.

How epic was that conversation with Gretchen? Did it inspire you to start cleaning your house and putting everything into place? I know for me, even just talking to her, I was like, I cannot wait to go clean and actually just re listening to it. I'm going to go clean right now. So so I hope this inspired you to make your home the most beautiful sanctuary that you deserve. And I'll see you on the next episode. If you love this episode, I would love for you to leave a review in the Apple Store as a free gift. I will send you the first half of my unreleased book Eat Right for your mind body type. Simply leave a review, take a screenshot and send it over to me at sahara@eatfeelfresh.com and I will send you back the first half of my unreleased book Eat Right for your mind body type. Please connect with me on social media amsaharose. I share lots of poetry, wisdom, downloads and all that good stuff so I'm so looking forward to connecting with you and for all of us living our ultimate freedom versions of success so we can become our highest selves. Namaste.

J.