250: The Roots of Tantra with Chandresh Bhardwaj

Namaste, it's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. If it is your first time listening. Welcome. I am so deeply honored to have you here. This is a podcast where we discuss all things spiritual and make it relatable and fun and easy and intuitive because you got enough things to worry about in your daily life. And if you are a regular here, you've been listening to this podcast for months, years, lifetimes. Welcome back. I'm so grateful to have you. So this fall has really been about tantra for me. This past fall of 2019, it's something that I have been interested in for a long time. Back when I was living in India, I went to some tantra workshops and festivals. I also stayed at an OSHO affiliated ashram called Zorba the Buddha. And there's a lot of, you know, tantra stuff there. But I never really found a good teacher. It always felt a little sketch to me, especially because the type of tantra they were facilitating is Neo Tantra, which is different than the ancient Tantra. So when I met Chandrash several years ago, he's been on this podcast and it's so funny because when I recorded this intro, I saw there was already a Chandrash intro on my computer and I listened to it and it said January 8th, and that's today, but it was from January 8th of 2018. So two years ago exactly was when Chandrash was on Highest Self podcast to the day. So I think that's really just obviously not coincidental at all that he happens to be right on the podcast like the same day two years later. So I met Chandrash and he is such a true, authentic, down to earth, well versed tantra teacher. And it has been such a pleasure to learn from him. And this fall I actually did one on one meditation training with him, which was really helpful of allowing me to have a solid foundation in meditation to overcome my own blocks and obstacles, which I've talked to you guys about on the podcast of, you know, my mind wanting to do a lot of things and my form of meditation being more dance oriented and movement oriented and finding the balance of the stillness and the movement and super hard for me. But I was able to help overcome that and really find that deeper state of meditation and silence, which is such a beautiful, you know, you can't even explain what that feels like. And Chandrash was very instrumental in helping me with that. So he is a seventh generation tantra guru from Northern India, from the Punjab area. And he comes with age old wisdom of the ancient roots of Tantra. And I think it's very important for us to know this. And it's tantra. But most of us in our Western world, what we experience as tantra is the neo Tantra practices which are more sexual focus. And essentially what happened was like we talk all about what tantra is, all of that stuff in this episode, but the lineage of tantra that really became popular in the US was more focused on one component of tantra. And tantra is all about there's no right or wrong, it's complete, just accepting all spectrums, non duality. And that could mean sex, that could mean death. Like anything that is taboo is sacred, which I super resonate with. And because of that, the sexuality part really got popular in the Western world, especially because we have so many sexual blocks in our society that people really need a lot of healing with that. So because of that, the type of tantra that we know and normally hear about, et cetera, is sexual focus. But that is actually not the tantra at all that Chandrash teaches and practices. Of course sexuality is a part of it, but it's like a drop in the ocean of it. And really the deeper truth of tantra, the underlying root of it is meditation and it is stillness and it is cultivating that awareness within. And I think a lot of us in this day and age, we want to skip to the fun part and the Jews and trust me, I get it, I'm so like that too. But just like learning from him has really reminded me the importance of just like slowing down, taking it really simply. All you need sometimes is just a meditation. We can overcomplicate things. We want the most complex mantra and this. And you know, those things in tantra can come with years and years of practice. But it's not like you instantly go into like the deepest tantric texts. So in this conversation we dive into what tantra is all about. Where does it come from? How does one practice it in their daily lives? What is meditation about? What is goddess work all about? All of these things we really talk about. And I think it will surprise you to really know the truth of what Tantra is, because again, most of us, we hear that word and we think of sex. And to really see that it is much deeper than that and much more than that and is actually a awareness process within ourselves. It is a state of being. It is a state of being receptive of all energies around us. So there's no better person to learn about ancient Tantric wisdom from then Chandrash Bhardwaj, who truly is an expert of this, whose father has passed it along to him and it is a divine honor to have him here on the podcast sharing his wisdom with us. So without further ado, let's welcome Chandresh Bhardwaj to the Highest Self Podcast. And before we get started, check out these brands that make Highest Self podcast possible. Has life been very full recently? I like to say full instead of stressful because it's saying that you're so full of opportunities and responsibilities and obligations rather than them being stressors. 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Thank you. Always a pleasure, Sahra.

And the first question I would love to ask you is, what makes you your highest self?

Okay. I think what makes me my highest self is my love for the divinity, my love for awareness, because I feel every time I have drifted away from my highest self, it's that love, that obsession I have for what I call divinity. So I hope and I. I think that's what connects me to my highest self.

Beautiful. And in the Western world, we don't hear that that much. You know, we don't hear the words devotion. We don't hear the words divinity. We are very individualistic society, which has helped us in many ways. It's helped us go after our dreams and do what we want. But I think a lot of us feel like, oh, like devotion rituals, practices, like, what is the point of that? That's going to slow me down from my life. So can you share a little bit? Just your journey of, you know, growing up with it and then losing it and coming back to it?

Yeah. I feel this is a great point to start, because I definitely felt at one point that rituals are not for maybe everyone. Maybe divinity is not for everyone. And I think I thought that because I grew up in India in a family of gurus, in a culture where divinity was constantly discussed very normally. So when I moved from India to New York, this is 2004, I would never bring up rituals, devotion, divinity. These words were never part of the conversation. In fact, some of the earlier clients and students I worked with, I would avoid using these words or even giving them any homework or rituals. And soon I started to understand the big picture, that, you know, the people here in the Western culture, they are curious, they are hungry for deeper stuff. They're experimenting a lot. But something is Missing. And I realized, you know, what's missing is devotion. What's missing is rituals. They are still doing certain rituals which may not be spiritual rituals, like getting a coffee and a bagel every morning in New York City is a ritual. And that ritual sets them up for a day. You know, I saw that happening every single day. And I. When I would speak to them, I realized they are doing the rituals. It's just happening on unconscious level. Going to a club every Saturday evening, that's a ritual. It's unconscious. It's not empowering them or cultivating any joy or healing in them, but it's a ritual. And I started to tap into what would tantra say to this. And tantra never says this is bad or that's good. It says, channel that, transform that energy. So I started sharing with very few group of trusted seekers with those seekers whom I knew that they are willing to do the work, they're willing to dive deeper. And I started sharing with them. Why don't you start this ritual every day? Why don't you connect with that divinity within? And I would define divinity in a very open form and not a religious way. And that started giving me the results. I mean, it gave them the results, but the results. I was hoping and expecting that it would cultivate more healing, it would cultivate more joy, it would empower them and bring them more strength. That started to happen. And I also realized that I cannot lead any seeker. If I'm not bringing in these elements, then I would be just doing a job of a motivational coach in a way which was not inspiring. Right. Because I was not connecting to my roots as well. If I was just touching on that surface level. And I needed that confidence, that courage when you leave your country. And I grew up in a very small town in India. And from there, with jumping to New York City, I definitely, you know, I took a break from the rituals. But not. It wasn't planned. I was still doing my rituals on my own personally, but I would never share them publicly because I thought maybe, you know, it's not going to be appealing to anyone. Maybe people will move away from my work if I start mentioning devotion or tantra or mantra. And I realized, you know, I am nothing without tantra. I'm nothing without mantras. I'm nothing without these roots. So if I'm not sharing them publicly, I'm taking away 99% of my own essence from, you know, these people. And I will only bloom when these rituals, this major part of who I am, will start to Bloom with me. So that's how it started to happen. At this point, I strongly feel that when the Western culture will start to cultivate more conscious rituals, more devotion. And devotion here means surrendering, basically. They could be devoted in love. They could be devoted in honoring their body. They could be devoted in their dharma, their craft. But devotion needs to be there, because life will not blossom if they're not diving deeper. Most people are very comfortable staying on the surface, but that's where you don't even feel anything.

Yeah, very true, and well said. I think a lot of people at that time were just not ready for the rituals yet.

I believe so.

Even just five years ago there, you know, meditation was emerging out of this huge yoga movement. But it was still very, like, cognitive focused. And here's how it enhances your dopamine. And, you know, I think a lot of us, because we don't trust spirit, we first need the science. And then once we see the science, we're like, oh, wait, this is so much deeper than just for me to calm down. This is actually taking me to a higher state of being that I can't even measure because I've never experienced before.

Yeah, I have never been the science guy. Even. Even in school, science was something I would only study just to, like, you know, pass the class. And when I started seeing scientific explanations or scientific proofs for meditation, I'm like, do we need a bunch of scientists from Harvard, you know, spending millions of dollars to prove that meditation can calm you down?

Right. Just do it. Try it. That's how I feel.

And I thought it was very silly. But then I also saw it was inspiring a lot of people. So I stepped back. I said, okay, certain people need science, and if this door works for them, let this door be opened to them. And hopefully, through science, they'll dive deeper into spirituality, poetry, and so much more. And it's happening now. It's slow, but it's happening. Like, as you said five years ago, it wasn't even happening.

I think that a lot of us were very. I always get confused. Right brain, left brain, the analytical one. And, you know, we are just wired to need to see it, to believe it. And because of that, a lot of the work of Dr. Joe Dispenza, Deepak Chopra, et cetera, is really great for them because it brings in the scientific research. But it just takes you back to just do the meditation and it will work.

It's basically. And it all comes back to that center point. I was watching Marianne Williamson. This is like seven, eight, Years ago at Deepak center in San Diego. And she said, I came across an Indian guru. I think her mother or someone from her family circle invited that Indian guru. And she said, every time we would share any problem with him, he would pause for a moment and he would say, meditate. And then somebody else would show up and they'll share the problem and he'll pause, he'll think, he'll say, meditate. And she said, at that point, I was like, he's answering. He's, you know, giving the same answer to everyone. But now I realize that's the only answer everyone needed. And it's so true. It all comes back to one very simple thing. Meditate, please. And it will happen.

Okay, so I want to talk about tantra because it's a subject like Ayurveda, very multifaceted. It's even hard to put into words. But you're someone who's so good at explaining, explaining it. So what is tantra?

Can I talk first about what is not tantra?

Sure.

Tantra is not acrobatic sexuality. Right.

It doesn't mean. Turn this podcast off then. We wanted the acrobatic sexuality.

Right. Tantra is seen and understood as a science in the, you know, Eastern traditions. If I have to just define the word tantra beyond spirituality, tantra basically means technique. In the spiritual traditions, tantra means the science of self awareness, science of cultivating that self realization. And there's one of the most important text and scripture about tantra is Vagyan Bhairav Tantra, which actually means the science of going beyond consciousness. So when you dive deeper into tantra, the authentic tantra, it's really a science. It has a lot to do with devotion, love, spirituality, divinity, divine, feminine. And it's extremely disciplined science. That's one thing a lot of people think it's not disciplined because it gives you a certain freedom. And that's when people start to think maybe it's not disciplined enough. But if you actually see when you have more freedom, that's when you need to practice more discipline also. So it definitely gives you certain freedom. But that's where a lot of discipline also has to walk in. If you're not practicing discipline, then you're not practicing tantra. So that's the key word. And I've been using this word very often now because I'm seeing a lot of rising, you know, interest in tantra. And I feel with the interest, you know, rising in tantra, we don't want to see it again, demolishing or Butchering the whole science of it. So discipline has to walk in. Without discipline, it's not at all tantra.

So would you consider tantra, it's a technique. Would you consider it a way of life, a meditation practice? Like, how can people experience it?

Meditation is definitely the core root of tantra. Without meditation, tantra cannot exist. Because when we say the science of going beyond consciousness or the science of cultivating self awareness, it has to start with meditation. And interesting facet about tantra is it takes into account of everything you have. So you know, you could be someone with a very serious addiction. And you could go to any school of spirituality. They'll tell you, we cannot take you in because you have this addiction. Why don't you go to rehab, come back, then you'll be qualified or ready for this work. But tantra will say, okay, this is the addiction you have. It basically means you have this intensity and longing to experience something. That's why you got into this addiction. So all we need to do is change the direction of this longing, change the direction of this intensity from alcohol to divinity, alcohol to awareness. And that's what tantra will start to do. So if anyone wants to practice tantra, one major thing that they need to do is build up this stamina, this capability to sit every single day, even for five minutes. You know, it's like if you want to go to Harvard or NYU at some point, you go through 12 years of high school with good grades, then you get into bachelor's degree, and then you apply for an MBA or something in these Ivy League schools. So you got to put in a lot of amount of daily showing up, being sincere and being disciplined.

So what is the difference between a tantric and a regular meditation?

A regular meditation is the most gentle form of tantric meditation. Basically, when you start to understand tantra, you'll see Kundalini yoga mantra, mindfulness, tm. Every single meditation is born out of tantra. And it's sad. Most of the teachers, almost all of the teachers, don't credit tantra because, you know, deep down they're afraid also to turn away the audience. So they don't use the word tantra. But a lot of almost all the meditations come from tantra. The difference would be in a gentle meditation or in regular meditation, we stay on the surface. Like in certain mindfulness techniques, when a thought shows up, you label the thoughts. It's a very western psychological exercise kind of system. In tantra, they will go deeper, will not label anything, but will witness the labels instead. So Tantra will take into mantras. Tantra will bring in a lot of specific breathing techniques. Tantra will also bring in everything you have, which means desires, anger, greed, sexual energy, attachments, ego. It will take into account everything and it will start to channel that, these elements into higher consciousness. And this is sensitive work. This is also scary work, right? Imagine you have to channel your ego and greed into higher consciousness. If you go a little bit wrong, it can go entirely wrong. So that's why with the tantra work, you have to be very organic, very patient, and you have to, you should be working with someone who can gently, organically guide you. With regular meditation, you can use an app, but I would say the difference is, you know, having one slice of orange and eating a full platter. That's the difference between regular meditation meditation and tantric meditation. Tantric meditation is the full meal and you don't have to eat the full meal right away. And that's why I said, you know, you could get used to it. You could start with super slow organic. Maybe the apps will help, the sound will help, the nature will help, but aim for the higher one. You know, if you, when you start studying in the first grade, you learn very basic things, but every year you graduate, you move on to higher studies. So look at your spiritual journey in that way. When you start the journey, you start slow, you start organic, you have patience. You know, when you're in first grade, you should not aim for college. It's even silly to think about it. Even if you have the capability, you still have to respect the organic system, right? You could do it faster, but you cannot do it overnight. You cannot do it, you know, the 12 year journey in one year, that would be absolutely wrong. You could do 12 year journey in, I don't know, six years or even five years or lesser than that, depending on how devoted you are. But meditation plays a huge role in building up a tantric practice. And that meditation could be anything as long as you show up for it every single day. You know, connecting with your breathing, connecting with everything that's showing up in you and witnessing it. Witnessing is very important in tantra. We call it sakshi bhava, which means the attitude of no attitude, you know, being a witness, not identifying with that thought, with that energy. And the best time for these meditation is when you are joyful, when you're excited. But sadly, most people want to meditate when they're sad, when they're going through a breakup, when they're going through some terrible pain. At that time, your Receptivity is so closed. And the right time to meditate is when you want to dance, when you want to be just joyful, happy, you're excited for life. The receptivity is going to be very different in that time.

Love that. So how can people at home practice a tantric meditation? They're very curious. They want to experience this. But maybe they don't know a local good tantra teacher.

Right. Let's start with the rituals. Right. I feel if you really want to be sincere toward specifically about tantric meditation, set up a ritual. Set up an altar first. An altar could be as simple as having a table with fresh flowers and a candle. Really simple. You don't have to complicate it. And if you could do, I don't know, your vision board on it, it's fine. Write your intentions on it, that's also fine. Anything that empowers your spirit could be part of the temple. You could even put a picture of the God you believe in. Altar is very neutral. It's the mind of the man that's not neutral. Altars are very neutral. So you could put anything on the altar as long as it cultivates your consciousness. And then set up a ritual every day that you will be putting fresh flowers. I don't know, once in a week, light a candle every single morning or evening whenever you meditate and have a cushion, a comfortable chair there, and then start to show up for that meditation practice every single day. And you could focus on simply breathing in and breathing out, or breathing in, holding the breath and breathing out. In the techniques of tantra, the breath itself has like 30 or more than 30 variations. So if you stick to either effortless breathing or conscious breathing, which means inhaling, holding and exhaling, that starts to shift your awareness in holding the breath. There's a lot that can happen when you're holding the breath. Be a witness to the body. Be a witness to everything that's unfolding. Don't identify with it. You know, you got to watch it like a movie. Even if you know Tom Cruise dies in a movie, you're not depressed for like two months. You're like, oh, it's a movie. He's already, you know, out shooting the next movie. You got to watch these things as if they're playing like a movie. You don't get attached. You don't get identified. You don't get infatuated. You continue to remain a witness to everything that happens. And then through the nostrils, exhale. So inhaling, holding, exhaling for a good couple of minutes. And after that, you could bring in your intention. You could plant that intention, and you can go through effortless breathing and drop that attention. You could meditate on the heart center, but after conscious breathing, drop the attention from heart center to wherever this awareness is going. And you could even use the mantra Soham Namah, which means, I am the infinite awareness. I am the conscious awareness, always evolving, always receptive and available. And this could set a very powerful stage as long as you are devoted to it.

Love that. So setting up your altar, having flowers, something that you believe in, vision board images of goddesses, conscious breathing, It's. People might be like, that's just. Sounds so simple. How is that tantra? Like, I want to, like, do a handstand. And, you know, I feel like people want something that's really, like, different and out there. But from what I'm hearing you say, and my experience with you is that I don't know if it's that you have to start super simple and build your way up or like, this is the practice, and we just make it so complicated.

Yeah. You know, this is the practice. And I feel spirituality is so simple and its simplicity has gone against it because we think, oh, it's so simple. I thought, I have to be in Himalayas for this. And I've been taking my clients to Himalayas for 10 years. And this is the first thing I tell them. Do not think going to Himalayas is going to open some chakra. If you cannot open it in Beverly Hills, it's not going to open in Himalayas. So that's for sure. We are going there to take part in certain rituals which we cannot do in Beverly Hills. That's a major reason. And the energy, the vortex and Himalayas is powerful. That's also, you know, absent in Biblios. So that's why we are going. But that idea that spirituality has to be complicated or has to involve some really tough, intense stuff that's, you know, not at all right. And again, as I said, it builds up on its own. If I bring in, you know, a very complicated stuff, like, I could say, set up a yantra, but just energizing a yantra will take three months. And that turns off a lot of people. We are a Snapchat insta story generation, so we don't have patience. I waited more than five years to get my first mantra from my father, and I would complain to my mother. Dad is giving me hard time not giving me a mantra. And I thought, he's just taking me for granted. I'm his son, and he's not giving me the mantra, but that weight cultivated so much respect and patience for the mantras. And, you know, when people reach out to me for mantra to work together, that's, you know, they said that they were like, I heard your podcast, and I remember you mentioned, you know, your father made you wait five years. Please don't make me wait for five years. Can I get something in the first session? And we can build up from there. So, you know, that's the thing. And I know I use this word, which Richard Branson, I think, coined it kiss. But he says, keep it simple, stupid. And I say, keep it simple, seekers. You got to keep it simple. That simplicity will work in your favor. It should not look complicated. It should not feel complicated, because your awareness is your highest teacher. You got to respect that awareness. If you make it complicated from day one, you know, when the seduction level drops, then you're going to be like, okay, I did the setup. Now what? Because the first few weeks or months are the honeymoon period. You know, you're excited to build the altar. You want to, you know, like, really experience the divinity or the chakras opening. And when that attraction, that infatuation or the narrative of the mind starts to drop and you feel it was actually not at all what I was thinking. It's making me cry, it's making me angry. It's making me go through, like, so many emotions, which I knew they were in me, but I was, like, really hiding. I was hiding them in a very beautiful way. And the journey gets messy. So if you start simple, you'll be more prepared to really understand what's happening. Because I don't want to build the seduction level so strong in the first meeting that when the seduction drop, which will drop eventually because your mind is fantasizing. You know, we romanticize spirituality. So when you start to see spirituality from that lens, when ultimately that attraction infatuation starts to drop, it turns you off as a seeker, because you walked in with a very different fantasy. And that happens in relationships a lot, right? And that's why my system, my strategies, keep it super simple. And then you become ambitious to go higher with it. And it looks very organic to me because you start simple, but your ambition, your hunger, your intensity, then builds the next path. It builds the next direction. So people actually start telling me that I've been meditating suddenly for month, oh, sorry, one hour. What do I do next? Their ambition, their hunger that needs to be awakened, and it should not happen through me. It should happen from their inner heart. You Know their inner voice.

Love that. So if someone says, well, I already have a meditation practice. I do Vedic meditation, tm, Buddhist meditation, mindfulness meditation, then aren't I already doing Tantra? What is the difference?

You know, they are conceived out of Tantra, Vedic or tm. They are not tantric meditations. Why? Because they are made for certain kind of audience. Because if you. Let's take example of tm, when Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, you know, came to us from India, he's the founder of tm. If you read his work, if you understand his aura, his energy, he wanted to create spiritual revolution. And I don't know the deeper inside stories. I mean, I know some of them, I don't know how true or false they are, but if I just trust the energy, his lectures, in the very beginning, before he became a viral guru, you know, he wanted to create spiritual revolution. And obviously people were not ready for it. Nobody was ready to dive deeper. They all wanted a soft, you know, cushion of meditation, relaxation. Because America has always been in stress. You know, they want to, you know, take less, you know, antidepressants. They want a certain substitute. So his spiritual revolution became a soft revolution. It became something very simple that everyone could take in. And TM was given to hundreds and thousands of people. So it's a super gentle form of what could be tantric meditation. Maharishi has a lot of tantra elements in his energy, in his work, but he has to calm it down, he has to soften it because he was surrounded by scientists, doctors, you know, the modern marketing gurus. And they were all advising him, this will not have an audience if you make it this traditional. And they were right. Right. I mean, even I know the struggles, the frustration, the challenges like I continue to go through only because I don't want to create a softer version. And I think I'm in a good space. It's 2019. People are at least more open, and we have more platforms and mediums. In those days, Maharishi did not have enough platforms. Or also when you are at a certain point in age, you're like, I got to bring this out. If I become stubborn and rigid, that I only want to bring traditional version out, maybe it will never see the light of the day. And the people around him were supporting the softer version. And very few will invest in their true and deeper version because it's scary also. It's scary to, you know, have that mirror. But Vedic is very much mantra meditation, Deepaks, primordial sound meditation. They all are Softer version. And if you see the audience, it's a mass audience that they cater to. So, you know, one teacher doesn't sit with every single person and really formulate a specific customized mantra or meditation. It's one teacher versus like hundreds of seekers. So they have to create sort of a template for it. And that's what is happening.

Yeah, yeah. So in Tantric meditation, you can really only get a customized mantra for you according to what you energetically need by someone who is a trained Tantric guru, essentially, which you can't really mass produce.

Yeah. And this is the reason why tantra was not made. Ever made casual. If you read the ancient stories or the ancient research on tantra, Tantra was very much catered to the royal families, the kings and the biggest of the biggest powerful people because they had access to the royal gurus, you know, the chief gurus of the country and all. So all the Tantra gurus were catered to these royal families. And some other gurus were also taking in other people. But they would always have handful of students they would never train. You know, a lot of people, like even Shiva is, you know, who's known as the founder of Tantra or who's known as Lord Shiva also. He's known as someone who was wandering the Himalayas, not giving his teaching to anyone. And there were like seven monks who were. Who were constantly, like, running around him. And after years and years and years, he gave some teachings, some wisdom to them. Like my father's guru, my grandfather, he never trained anyone in tantra. He gave a little bit of stuff to his close students, but he only trained my father. And he didn't train him because he was, you know, the son, but he trained him because my father really devoted everything, you know, to the whole thing. And I think that's why my father made me wait for years and years. Even now he's. He releases like a drop once a year. That's all. And I just nurture and treasure that drop. But I respect that. I know, because even that one drop is immensely valuable. If I can meditate on that one drop, it could lead me through the ocean. But it's up to my devotion. So tantra was never designed to be casual or publicly available. Even if you read the modern books from Amazon and if you're reading authentic book, you'll see the element of that. Tantra teachers never, ever wanted to make this a publicly available knowledge because the abuse gets pretty fast. Yeah, it's still. I see the abuse happening on a major level even when I'M teaching authentic tantra, and I've never certified any teacher in it. But even the students who show up in the talks, they start mentioning my name in their websites and they start doing crazy stuff and I have to, like, send an email. First of all, stop using my name. Stop teaching this kind of tantra if you're using my name. Because it's clearly abuse, it's unethical, it's exploiting the students. And I see the scare. I mean, I was ambitious a few years ago that I'm going to create an online course or tantra teacher training. And I've completely released that goal. Now I'm not going to do that, I think, in this lifetime, but I'll create some other stuff to cultivate more awareness on tantra. I don't think certifications need to happen. Even if I could train one student in this life, that would be. Yeah, that would be such a, you know, dreamy thing.

Wow. So it's such a level of depth that we are just not even aware of in the Western world.

It's a lot even I'm after. You know, I've been doing this since forever. I don't have a memory of my life where I was not obsessed with goddesses or tantra work or spirituality. Like, that's my memory of entire life. And I've been professionally doing it for 12 years. But I still feel I've not gone beyond 1 or 2%. It's huge. It's like, it makes me nervous to actually see the amount of work I need to dive deeper into. But it's also like this continuous love affair that, you know, it's so much to explore. I have not even started yet. So it makes me nervous, but also extremely joyful. And I look forward to my life that. Okay, I'm. I'm waiting for the next step then, you know, it makes me excited every morning, for sure.

So with this, then, can tantra ever become, you know, for the masses, an everyday practice? If the only way we can really learn it is from someone who's devoted their entire lives to it, it could become.

In fact, that's my intention with. I'm hoping to write a book on tantra that's, you know, I've stopped writing every other book and only planning for the tantra book. And the goal is to make it accessible to the masses. And I'm diving deeper into what could be, you know, out on the table for masses, like the tips I shared for you, altar rituals, the mantra. There are so many other ways.

So what Mantra can everyone use?

Soham is very powerful mantra. Aham Brahmasmi, which means I am extension of the universe, the universe resides in me. That's a powerful mantra. Sat chat Ananda, Truth, bliss, consciousness cultivates in me. And one of the advanced mantra is Namah Shivaya, which means I am the home of consciousness and the infinite consciousness continues to nurture within me. But this is advanced. So I don't even want to recommend to anyone to start with this mantra.

And can you explain why you don't use the word Om in Tantra?

You know, we don't use the word Om because you become what you're meditating on, number one. So if you're meditating on Om, Om means infinite consciousness. It has no beginning and no end. It's ever evolving in that cosmic universe. When you are meditating on Om, you start to imbibe the spirit of Om, which is infinite consciousness. So if you are meditating on Om, it's going to happen very naturally that you will start to move away from your responsibilities, family duties, ambitions, goals and everything. But deep down you want to have a good partner. Deep down you want to be successful. Deep down you want to make sure the bills are paid and you live, you know, a good life. But when you're meditating on Om, you're also creating a path to move into a non attachment, a very infinite spiritual pathway. And on the other side, you're working very hard to make sure your kids are getting good schooling, you are living a good life, you are nurturing your dreams, your husband, your wife, your partners, they are nurturing with you. So when you start to meditate on Om, you are neither there nor there. I mean, you are stuck in the middle. It's a tug of war and you are the one who's digging that whole thing. And the people who have been meditating on Om, their business, their goals, their ambitions, they start to become such a mess and they don't know why it's happening. I'm meditating on Om, the most powerful mantra. And I'm losing interest in my relationships. I'm losing interest in every single material thing. And also I'm not even becoming spiritual. I'm like confused there because Om is not a bridge, it's a destination. The mantras I shared with you, they are little bridges. Even goddesses are the bridges. Om is the destination. And when you start to meditate through these bridges, you automatically open your highest chakra, the crown chakra, to receive the vibrations of the Om. Aum should be the effortless outcome of your meditations of years and years. And when Om opens on its own, then you have arrived and by that time. And it will only open up when you're done with the material world. And this is why in the Eastern spirituality, the layers are very interesting that from, you know, age, from teenage to mid-20s, you only go for married life or, you know, make babies and do all this stuff after. In the 30s, you work hard for Dharma. In the 40s, you start to wrap up things. In the 50s, you start to go deeper in spirituality. So they made the layers for householder that you could go into these layers. And I highly recommend to everyone, if you're already meditating on Om, you got to pay attention to what I'm saying and witness how is your relationship with your goals, your material journey, and how's your relationship with your higher awareness? Experiment with it. Don't take my word for it. And then drop the aum and go with just the mantras without aum. So that would be very interesting. I keep getting feedback on this, by the way. So I share this very often on my social media and podcast, and people reach out and, you know, that's what was happening with me. So it feels glad that people are already, like, seeing the effect of Om and not doing the Om, but being prepared for the Om in a way.

So powerful because, you know, we all go to yoga classes, and at the end, you'll omit. So can you say it at the end of a yoga class?

Yeah, I mean, you know, if you have, you know, a piece of kale and avocado once a week, it's not going to do a lot of change. So if you say Om after yoga class, it's not going to completely take you into that cosmic zone.

Right.

So it won't hurt you. You know, like, one cupcake a week won't hurt you. It's the same way. But if you start to consciously meditate on it every single day, then you'll see the effects.

Right. And it's a very Hindu word. Like in you say Om namah Shivaya.

Yeah, it's more like it's. It belongs to the Eastern spirituality. And, you know, Hinduism, yoga, Tantra, Kundalini, they all use it. They all, you know, but they all honor it. But Tantra is one of those revolutionary schools which said, you know, stop the Om.

Okay.

You want. If any Hindu priest will say it publicly, I'm sure he's going to get a lot of bashing from, you know, people who are devoted Hindus.

Wow. And I know Shring is another very popular mantra that we spoke about that you realized was ruining a lot of people's lives.

Yeah.

And that was one that I was assigned to, and I didn't. I just did not like it. Something within me was like, don't say this. Yeah.

You know, and that's where I feel I want to say I absolutely love Maharishi, you know?

Yes.

Mentioning his name brings a lot of reverence and love in my heart. And I also. I see where TM has gone. It's in the hands of tons of people right now, the management committees and all. So he probably created certain mantras according to certain set of rules and stuff. And there are many mantras, not just in TM but in many popular schools of meditation, which are not meant for anyone or meant for very specific energies. Because mantra is like a medicine, Right. It's instrument of the mind, and no two minds are alike. How can 50 people or 5,000 or 500,000 can get one mantra? They are not coming from same culture, same conditioning, same goals, same desires. And the mantras that end with the sound of G, G for God. I would recommend to revisit those mantras because most of these mantras revisit, as.

In do not, do, do not do not go back to, like, shreem.

So there are two mantras, Shring and Shreem. Shring is a mantra which is very much on the lines of the aum, which takes you away from that material desire. But Shreem, on the other hand, is one of the most sacred, one of the highly advanced mantras which you actually receive after 10 or 20 years. It's very, very powerful, and the difference is huge. One of them cultivates your material and spiritual path, which is shaped sharing. Shring takes you away from that path. The mantras that end with a G, a lot of them, at least I have seen they are very much focused on, or they come from a different school of spirituality where the balance of material and spirituality is not fully encouraged. They encourage only one path, which is renunciation of the material path. And Tantra, by the way, is another unique path which honors and encourages you to have the abundance of both the worlds, spiritual and material. So you could be driving Rolls Royce in Tantra and still be the yogic higher consciousness. You could be flying in private jets, and still it will not own you. You know, because Tantra says do everything with extreme awareness. That's why I say there's a lot of discipline. You need someone to constantly kick your ego. And I know for sure. Without my guru, I would have of course gone in a very different direction, even in spirituality. But I would have probably stopped blooming long time ago because I would have thought that, oh, I've arrived, I don't need, I'm already bloomed. I don't need to go anywhere now. But you need someone to remind you that don't stay lukewarm, you're only beginning to bloom now. So don't stop there. So yeah, it's a lot. We could make like a seven season Netflix series on this, honestly.

Right. And I think people are still like, but what do I do? Because you know, as listeners now can tell, there's a big difference between like traditional authentic pure tantra and neo tantra, which is what a lot of us do today are more familiar with, which is much focused on the sexual practices, jade egg practices, that sort of thing. It's a sexual practice. Whereas that is a small, small, small drop of what all of the science of tantra is.

Absolutely.

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Tantra takes into account of everything you are. So you could be someone with lot of sexual energy or a lot of greed, anger, ego, lot of creativity. You could be having all elements that a human being has. Tantra will give you a way to channel, to transform that energy. So of course, if you're a human being, sexual energy is going to be part of who you are. But how do you understand that sexual energy is extremely important? Because most people understand sexual energy through only one lens, which is the lens of pleasure, the lens of sexually engaging with someone. That's the only lens we understand. I come across men and women who don't know how to relate to men or women beyond that, sexual objectification. So first thing to understand, if you want to understand tantra with sex, you got to understand that tantra is going to demand that you see sex from a different point of view. You cannot see sex as just that pleasure energy. You got to see it as an energy that's a doorway to higher consciousness. The problem is, which scares me and concerns me that a lot of tantric, so called tantric teachers or masters, they create these sexual, you know, events or courses. It attracts people who are sexually suppressed, who are holding up that energy for too long, and they get into these kind of events, they release their sexual energy and they feel good. Because it's like a sneeze for most people, right? You release it like a sneeze, you feel lighter. You go back and you're like, you know, that was a great tantra event. I feel so light. Of course you feel light. You know, you were in sexual orgy last night, you know, you were with like random people. It's like dream come true for a lot of people. And it's without guilt. It's made to look like a part of spiritual, you know, consciousness circle. After a few days, or for certain people after a few hours, they again build up that energy. They again look for these kind of settings. They again take Part in it, they again release it. So it becomes a vicious cycle of simply releasing that, building up of the energy of sexual energy, mainly. That's not tantra. Tantra has to involve sadhana, the disciplined spiritual practice. Tantra has to make you discipline, you know, toward that whole complexity of your sexual energy. And I've mentioned that in one of the episodes on my podcast that tantra teachers in the ancient India, they used to prepare the seekers for years and years, like 10, 20, or even longer. And then they would, you know, encourage them to engage sexually with someone, but someone they're not attracted toward. Because if they're attracted towards someone and they have sex with that person, and it's obviously going to be a pleasure thing, but they had to take them beyond the pleasure part. So that's where tantra gets extremely disciplined and very complex. That. Because a lot of people who think of tantra in the sexual form, they feel, okay, of course it's going to heal my relationship with my partner and heal my sexual energy. Of course it will heal, but it will heal that sexual energy. When you start to understand sexual energy on a bigger cosmic scale, if you only understand sexual energy as the one dimension of sexual pleasure, it's not healing, it's just, you know, amplifying that sexual hunger in you, basically. Does it make sense?

Yeah, of course. So I think what listeners can understand is tantra is not just going to an orgy and having free sex. That may be some people's version of ultimate moksha, free freedom, or so they think. You know, Osho, for example, created a lot of those types of experiences. But that's his spin on tantra.

You know, he started that spin, and he was hoping, you know, when you dig deeper into his work, he was hoping that, okay, I'm going to start with this, because people were not, you know, opening up. So he was like, I'll create this Buddha field. People will release that suppression. And you know what started to happen, People just starting releasing the suppression. So I think maybe. I know he didn't continue it for too long because it really became like a sexual orgy.

Right.

I haven't seen the documentary, but I. I've always.

Well, you know, I think the point of Osho was do whatever it is that you want to do. So you see that it really doesn't mean anything, but a lot of the people just got stuck doing it, and they didn't go beyond.

Yeah, like, you know, I remember Bill Gates said this. You know, you got to make a lot of money so that you Understand, money is not everything. Right. Jim Carrey also said something similar, and that's really what it is. There's a word in Tantra called bhogi which sounds like yogi. So bhogi is someone who indulges in everything. So they say from bhogi you become yogi. So you got to indulge in things only to understand the stupidity of it. To understand I don't need it, I thought I need to take part in sex, I need to go through all these things. But if you are meditative and fully aware, you realize I actually don't need it. It's just the cultural narrative. It's just I'm wired in that way. And that's why I think, look at our society. People who are not sexual enough, they feel that something is wrong with them. They start to take medicines. They feel, I'm not going to be appreciated or loved by anyone if I'm not sexual enough. And people who are highly sexual either, of course they are shamed also. But also it's rewarded in a very wrong way. Sometimes A man who's sexual at even 85, he thinks he's some sort of a king in his little island, right? And society rewards him. But the truth is, if you're still playing with the same toy that you were used to playing when you were a teenager, it's not normal. It signifies some sort of mental sickness. So your relationship with your sexual energy has to evolve with your age.

Yes, yes. And I think that what Tantra teaches us from that sexual perspective is like the first level of sex is, you know, just curiosity, like as a child, like it's erotic innocence, like, oh, I have this body and this feels good and I don't really know what it is. And then as teenagers, it becomes this like urge and it's like, you know, have all of the experiences as many people possible and many people stay in that zone and then it kind of just turns into maybe more like a duty or a chore. And it's like again, at that surface level of like build up, orgasm, release. And very few people go beyond in see that sexual experience as something that can heighten both partners in their own personal spiritual awakening.

Absolutely. I think you brought up very important point. So I encourage young people, you know, to feel their emotions. If you haven't had a good relationship with masculine or feminine in your life, you know, you go beyond it, you explore that energy in your life. And that would also mean engaging in your emotional energy, sexual energy. As a young person, you have this gift of releasing or rubbing that energy off quickly. As you get older, the energy stays with you much stronger. It's like food, you know, when you were a teenager, you could. I used to eat a lot of junk food as a teenager. After I hit 25, I was like, oh, my God, it's not leaving me. It's clearly in my body still. And as a young person, you got to indulge in these experiences, but be disciplined and honest enough to go beyond it after a certain time, you should be engaging in these experiences differently in 20s, differently in 30s, and differently in 40s and beyond. So important tantra is the journey of taking you into these indulgences and then giving you the tool, the pathway to go beyond it.

Beautiful. So I want to talk about the goddesses now because they are such a huge and instrumental part of tantra. Who is the main goddess of tantra and how can we honor her?

So tantra is the only school of spirituality where feminine is honored and loved in the form of goddesses. In yoga, there's no feminine deity. In tantra, there's no masculine deity, Although Shiva is known as the founder of tantra. But Shiva worships and honors the feminine in such a beautiful way. So tantra has what we call Das mahavidya, which means the ten prime goddesses. Mahakali or Ma Kali, or goddess Kali, is the mama of these 10 goddesses, the bigger one, the most powerful one. And when I say goddess Kali, people instantly start to see that picture of her, you know, with, you know, holding blood and skeletons and all that stuff. It's one of her forms. And also it's the kind of form of her that sets the foundation of everything. Because if you understand tantra, tantra does not see things as ugly or beautiful, as good or bad, as fierce or gentle. Tantra teaches us to practice sakshi bhava, witnessing consciousness. So when you witness goddess Kali in that form, that one form starts to open a lot more powerful forms. So there are 10 prime goddesses. And the moment you Google tantra and 10 goddesses, you will see the names of all of them. But don't meditate on any of them except only one goddess Kali, because, I mean, it's. First of all, it's an enormous task to meditate on them. Even in the scriptures, they recommend do not meditate on certain goddesses because they just, you know, need you to be in a certain state of consciousness. And if I start to meditate on certain deities, which I'm not ready and prepared, it's going to be, I Think heavy, but also a waste of my energy and time. Right? I rather use that time and energy on meditating on the goddesses which are readily available for someone like us who are living in, you know, modern cities, doing our modern work. Goddess Kali is that Goddess which adapts herself to the seeker. But you got to understand her beyond what you read and see on the Google. You know, we call Goddess Kali as Ma Kali Ma. And the reason we call her Maaakali is to bring that divine motherly energy onto her, to relate to her on that level of motherliness, that nurturing spirit. And I know the, you know, it has happened many times when I mention Goddess Kali as Mother Kali. People say I didn't have a good relationship with my mother or it brings up a lot of uneasiness in me, so I cannot relate to her as the mother. Is there any other way? So when I say Maa Kali, it doesn't have to be like your biological mother. It could be some sort of a guru, a teacher, a mentor, or some sort of that higher energy which you not only honor, but also, you know, you connect on that one on one level. Because when I say Goddess Kali, people say, you know, it's Goddess and me, I mean, who am I to cultivate this relationship with a goddess? I am just a human. So that's why the tantra teachers brought the word Maa, that if you think you have a huge gap between you and the Goddess, let's bring her to your level. So it's mother and the child. I mean, that's what happened with me. I was a devotee of Hanuman, the monkey God for many years. And when I started shifting toward Maa Kali, I couldn't relate to her. I thought. I mean, I was like, who is she? She looked very attractive to me. I'm like, you know, is she like the most beautiful, most powerful or ferocious Goddess? Who is she like? I would see many forms, and I was very confused that as a teenager, I'm first of all not at all qualified to like, connect with her, you know, because as a teenager you also have a lot of crazy fantasies and stuff happening in your head. Your head is big, miss. And I remember I shared with my father once, I said, I cannot meditate on her because it feels like a very godly stuff and I need to. I cannot connect to her on that one, on one level. And I was able to connect with Hanuman only because I never saw him as that godly energy. I saw him as this sweet monkey God kind of, you know, as A child. It was almost like having that, you know, like a friend. How kids have, you know, Harry Potter or Spider man or Superman. That was Hanuman for me. So I had fun with, you know, meditating on Hanuman. And he said, you got to cultivate a similar relationship with her. So she's goddess and you don't have to relate to her as the goddess. What's the most beautiful feminine connection you have in your life? And, you know, as a teenager, I said, you know, my nani, my grandmother and my mom. And he said, how about bringing that aspect of motherliness on Kali? And that's what started a very interesting relationship between me and Maa Kali. And that's what has been happening in Uncultivating on its own. But for those people who feels very tough to relate to her as the mother, you could relate to her as some sort of a mentor, some sort of a higher guide, because maybe the goddess won't work. So you got to, you know, bring her to a level and you go to the level where you both can access each other. Does it help you think?

Yeah, no, definitely. I think a lot of people when. When they think of Kali, they think of her fierce side, the ferocious side, which definitely is an aspect of her. But we can think about that as the mother whose children were ripped apart from her. And that's going to bring out her, like her more fierce, angry mother side. But it doesn't mean that she's always in that state.

No. And, you know, you also have to understand we have made our gods very human. Like, we have humanized our divine, you know, deities. And that has happened in every religion, every culture. We have humanized them. And that's. That's butchering that neutral, loving form of them so as. As a deity, she never will judge you. Like, if I have a great relationship with my mother, I could be sleeping all day. I could be eating junk food. Yeah. Maybe she won't like it, but she won't hate me for it. She'll probably try to teach me as a good teacher. If one of my students start to go in a very different direction, and if they're still open to me, I wouldn't hate them. I would try to teach them something else. So the right mother, the right teacher, the right mentor will never judge you, will never hate you, because they know you're trying your best from your level of awareness is. So you have to let go of this narrative that she will judge me or punish me. She will not punish you. You know, who punishes human being? So it's the humanized version of punishing and rewarding. She's not going to punish you. You are punishing yourself by cultivating these narratives. Yeah. And when you meditate on her, cultivate that honoring energy, like surrender to her, surrender to that powerful energy that I, I know that I know nothing. And that's why I'm surrendering to you, for, you know, you to guide me, to lead this path for me. That's what I still do. That's how my father starts every public lecture of his. You know, that I'm the most illiterate student of spirituality and divinity. And as a kid I thought, oh, maybe he doesn't know much. That's why he always calls himself illiterate student. And when I grew up, I'm like, oh God, he knows a lot. He's a genius. Why the heck he calls himself illiterate? And then I got to know the reason behind it. He said, it makes me humble. It makes me open and receptive to the new knowledge, new wisdom. And it's tough for Western mind to call themselves, I'm illiterate or I don't know anything. They're like, I've read, you know, 10 books on tantra. How can I say I don't know anything? It makes me feel I'm not educated.

Right.

But the path of tantra and spirituality is not about, you know, calculation. It's not about bringing the logical mind. It's not about analyzing and calculating your moves. It's about loving. It's a loving relationship. You know, if you remember your first or one of the first deepest love relationship, you are fearless, you are shameless, you are non calculated. You don't think about anything. You just, you know, go into the experience of love. But as you start to gain more information, you become calculative. I come across a lot of men and women who are like, I'm, you know, 35 now. I got to really, you know, do this and that. So people stop falling in love the way they used to when they were 18. And tantra demands you to continue being the childlike, you know, play with this, move into this, don't calculate your moves. And when you surrender and accept that, the only thing you know is that you know nothing. A magic starts to happen. Your consciousness starts to shift. That's what needs to happen. That's what Tantra path is. So what? When I would tell people, keep it simple, I know it's not going to be simple. It has never been simple. It looks simple and people go into it and after a few meditations, they're like, I thought it's going to be just breathing and breathing out. But why do I see this? Why does this happen? It's because your awareness is cooking the thing, you know, when you are not complicating it because it's not your job. But when you trust the awareness, it will do what needs to be done. And then it may not look simple for your calculative mind, but that's how it needs to flow. So you don't complicate it. You leave it to the, you know, awareness, the conscious energy. It will do its thing. You step back. You make the way for it to happen, but you step back.

Love that. And really well explained. And I think a lot of people, I've had different people ask me, like, is it okay for me to honor, you know, Hindu, Vedic goddesses, goddesses that are not from my culture? Is this cultural appropriation? So what do you have to say to that?

You know, honoring a deity or honoring anyone is never inappropriate. And I've gone through this in my own way. I went to Catholic school for 12 years. And I remember I would reach school early and there would be no one there. And we had a big church in the school. And this was a school near Himalayas. So I would wake up, you know, I would see my mom doing the rituals for the deities. I would join her sometimes and I would. I asked my father that I reach school early. I don't meditate at home. Can I sit in the church and meditate? And he said, yeah, you can. I said, but what mantra do I do? Because, you know, there's a picture of Mother Mary on the outside, Jesus inside. He said, just do your, you know, goddess mantra. And I said, but it's dad, it's Jesus. It's not Krishna or Maa Kali there. He said, yeah, that's fine. They all are leading you to the one, one destination. So for 10 years, because after 10th, I changed my school. For 10 years, that was my everyday ritual. I would sit in church and meditate. You know, I have been meditating in the mosque in India, Sikh temples, Buddhist monasteries and tantra shrines. And my friends started to doubt my lineage because they said, you come from this profound, powerful, spiritual guru's family and you are meditating in church. We don't go to church. Why do you go to church? You are not a Sikh. Why are you going to Sikh temples? You're not a Muslim. Why are you going to mosque? I still go to mosques in India, which are very Sufi based. And ancient. It's never inappropriate. You know, when you lead this journey with love, what needs to happen is again, that love and devotion, and you will be fully accepted into that path. If you are checking it out, experimenting it, it's different. But sometimes certain people need to check out. But don't check out for too long, right? Because then you'll probably end up checking out just different, you know, deities. And you'll probably end up going through that for rest of your life. Respecting it, loving it, trying to learn it is never inappropriate. It will, of course, trigger and invoke anger in some people, but it shows their projection, their insecurities, their limited knowledge about the culture, tantra, deities. Because if you understand Goddess Kali or Shiva or any of those Tantra goddesses, none of them gave a damn about the norms or the conventional setup of spirituality. In fact, Shiva was never, ever accepted, even in his own zone, because they all said, he doesn't look like a guru, doesn't look like a God. His own father in law never accepted him. You know, Kali was never accepted as that ultimate goddess. But eventually, your energy, your actions, your aura, it speaks for itself. And when I started doing this work, people used to call me and ask me, does your father know you're talking about Tantra? Does your father know you are talking about sex and spirituality? I was like, yeah. I mean, he's my only guru. I learned from him. And they were like, oh, he doesn't talk about it. I said, he's been talking about it. You're not understanding his language. And he told me this. He said, I have catered to a different audience. Audience. You are connecting to a different audience. So you got to be more fearless. You got to be more, you know, like, out there. So it's never inappropriate. What I would recommend everyone to learn to understand, but don't follow blindly any book you got to read. If that's your way of learning, reading and, you know, listening the podcast, make your own version of it, understand it in your own way, and don't be afraid of seeking help. There's so many outlets now. If you don't want to, or if you cannot work with a teacher, post things on their videos, send them questions through websites. Go to quora.com Is that the website? Post stuff there. You'll always get some amazing information. The wrong step would be blindly following any one book or any bunch of books. It has to be simple. It has to be uncomplicated. And love and awareness and discipline has to lead the path.

Absolutely. I mean, I believe Goddess energy is universal. And we see these goddesses in every single culture. The same depictions, but in different cultural narratives. You see the wild woman and the mother and the seductress. You keep seeing these archetypes of the feminine show up. So how can we say that, oh, one is only if you're Irish, and this is only if you're Indian and universal energies. And to claim it and not let it be experienced by others is really taking a step back.

Absolutely. You know, in 2019, we should effortlessly embrace, you know, different curiosities, different languages of understanding spirituality. And one thing I've noticed in your journey from the time, and you have been exploring this path for a long time, but I started seeing a very interesting, visible shift in how you are expressing your journey, and it's showing up, up in your work now. And if you go back and think about your own journey, maybe seven years ago, rose gold goddesses wouldn't have the same energy and shape that it is now. I feel these goddesses start to work through you. They choose you. You cannot choose them. You know, they choose you, and things start to happen. You got to be aware and respectful toward it.

Well, Kali majorly chose me this year.

Yeah, golly, Kali chose you. And that's what, you know, was not ready for that. You know, we think we are not ready. Right. Because our way of readiness is very different. When Kali chose you, it blew my mind. It changed. I knew, okay, this is beginning of something very new for you. And I remember I was in flight, and when I was seeing it and.

Guys, for how Goddess Kali chose me and how she shows up for people is so I was very connected to. To Saraswati. Like, she was my goddess, only one. And then, like, later, I'm like, oh, Lakshmi is cool, like Durga. I was like, meh. Kali. I didn't even think about. And then when I had my rose gold goddess party, I decided something called me to dress as Kali. So I dressed as Kali, and it was awesome. And it sparked controversy from people who are very religious and did not think it was okay for me to dress as a goddess. And it created a lot of controversy. And that's essentially when I reconnected with Chandrash on this topic, and I've been studying under him in his tantric meditation practices. And it allowed me to go so much deeper into Kali consciousness. And now every time I pull the yoga path cards every day, Kali shows up. And at first, it was really hard to handle because it was a lot of energy flowing my way, which was not from her, like, trying to spite me, but it was just like an up leveling in spirituality and being able to hold the energy that I was essentially embodying by dressing as her.

Yeah. And, you know, people who. Who would get trigger seeing you dressed up as Kali, it's because sometimes, you know, the trigger is mindless. It has no logic, no base. But sometimes it's possible. Maybe they have been understanding and worshiping Kali only through one lens, but I can write it to you on paper. None of them have worshipped Kali, because if you worship her, you will understand she is playful. She's very unconventional. Most of the times, she's unconventional. And if you roam around India during the time of Diwali, Durga Puja, at certain tantric festivals, you would see men, not just women, men dressing up as Kali and honoring her by dancing.

These women would not be okay with that.

Yeah, of course not. And, you know, funny thing is, I got so many messages that day because.

I tagged you.

And I was like, what is happening? It felt like, you know, like my sister or my daughter is, like, in college doing some crazy stuff, and they're like, they're reaching out to me. Look at your daughter. Look at your system.

Like, oh, wow, what is she wearing? Have you let her out of the house? Like that.

The way they were writing to me, as if, like, I'm responsible and it shows.

Yeah, the patriarchy that's in people's mind.

And they wanted me to be angry. It was very clear. They wanted to me to be angry. They wanted me to write something really bad. And before I connected to you, I looked at it from, like, 50 different angles, and I was like, maybe because I have so much love and respect for Sahara, I'm missing the point. I shared it with my father and mother. My father is a tantra guru. My mom is, you know, wife of a tantra guru, but one of the sweetest Zen women I know. When she saw it, she smiled. Like, she smiled in a very normal way. She's like, oh, wow. And she said, people are angry with her. Why? Because, you know, I realized, you know, she's been watching this since forever. In India, you know, people do dress up as God and goddesses, not just Kali, but as Shiva, as, you know, Krishna, Radha and Krishna are dressed, you know, differently throughout India. You know, there could be many reasons. Sometimes people feel, who is she? She's not a Hindu. She's living in Los Angeles and doing this. But again, the truth is, this is 2019. You could be living in Paris and, you know, dress up as Krishna and playing the flute. It's really your own calling, your own way of addressing and honoring the deity. And I can guarantee you, if you don't already feel it, you will feel it soon, that it was not even you who chose to dress up as Kali. It's energy of Kali herself, the consciousness of that Kali that chose to express herself through you. And, you know, when you start to make this transition to deity work, you go through some of the most powerful, intense transitions. That could mean twerking, that could mean crying, that could mean tearing up the clothes. That could mean every single rule book in the religious books that you would end up, you know, rejecting. But that's what this path demands. It's never a rosy path. It's never. It's not supposed to please anyone.

It's a rose gold path, though. Not rosy, but rose gold.

And I use this line very often that be willing to destroy your reputation if you want to be on this path. If you are too concerned about your reputation, it's going to be different. And people tell me it's easy for you, I think, because you grew up in a tantra family, so, you know, you don't have to destroy the reputation. And if I tell you there's not even a week that goes by when I receive a message or email or someone, even from my own extended family or friend circle who still ask me, so you're really going to do this, huh? You're really going to be into tantra? And I would say, yeah, it's been 12 years. I think I'm going to do this now. People would not accept you. They want you to live a version of their own journey, in a way. And another thing is, and this would happen to other people, too, you were in love with Saraswati, and Kali decided to show up. And one of my takes on this is when you start to dive deeper with Saraswati or Lakshmi or any other goddess, there's a lot that needs to be detoxed, a lot of cultural conditioning, a lot of ancestral healing needs to happen. And Saraswati or Lakshmi or these gentle goddesses don't do that work. They call upon Kali to do that rough work because she's that energy. She's the destroyer of all that's not needed. She's the, you know, the engineer, the goddess that will transform the darkness, the suppression, that anger into higher consciousness. So as a tantric, I'm taught to work with Kali only because it's my job to do this for other people. So that's why I don't work with Lakshmi or Saraswati for even my own personal journey because I need to have that Mahakali's energy because that's the only one who can. Who can. She has elements of everyone. So she's the only one that's needed to elevate you spiritually.

So what do you think of people who just decide to focus on, let's say, Lakshmi, which a lot of people do, they just do daily Lakshmi mantras and Pooja's honoring her. Can we just stick to that? Or all roads going to take us to Kali eventually.

It's not for everyone, right? So all roads may not take you to Kali because it also depends on your journey. For you, the journey has been very, you know, unique and interesting because it's your vision also playing its part. Your ambition is playing in its part. For a lot of people, maybe that's not the ambition. So not everyone will go. I mean, you cannot. First of all, you cannot decide it, right? You may think like you never thought you would go to Kali. It happens organically, number one. And if you are meditating on Lakshmi or Saraswati or any of other goddesses, it's fine. You can continue to honor her, do the puja. And if you're doing Lakshmi puja, I would suggest, you know, keep pomegranates or like a fruit every day to honor her and maybe consume that fruit next day. You could be doing the mantras. Do the mantra without Om. I'm giving a very generalized instruction. Obviously it would be very different for specific person, but on a general level, do the mantra, Take out the Om, light the candle, offer the flowers, put the fruits and meditate on her energy. You know, receive guidance from her, but receive guidance with complete receptivity. You have to be open and available to what's coming your way. People are selectively spiritual, you know, which means they only want to do what they want to do. You know, they're like, it's a buffet of everything. I'm only going to pick this fruit. If that's your goal, then I would tell you you will not go anywhere. You may even feel disappointed after a while if you're being super selective. If you are honoring these deities, you stay receptive. You, you should be ready to be guided and then honor that guidance. If you don't honor the intuition, that guidance, yeah, then it's not going to go anywhere.

And I think a lot of people, especially when it comes to Kali, I myself are really scared because we've many of us who are into this work have heard of the stories of people not honoring Kali in the right way. So, for example, my friend Nadine, who is on this podcast, was just like, you know, doing a lot of Kali worship on her own. She was not trained in this and like a flood happened in her retreat house. And another friend of mine was like constant playing Kali mantras. Again, did not know about any of this stuff. She just thought Kali looked cool, was attracted to just like more of the ferociousness side of her. And then her, her place kind of burned down. So a lot of people get freaked out.

Yeah, of course, you know, people get so scared and crazy things happen. But it's also one thing is that when I speak to these people, I haven't spoken to a friend obviously, but when I speak to the people who experience these kind of things, they are not even meditating on the right form of Kali. Their version of Kali comes from information coming from different sources or just YouTube.

I think most of them are just listening to YouTube videos.

So if you want to devote, the word is devotion. If you want to devote your path to Kali, YouTube, Google, or even the best selling books, they are the worst ways to go deeper into Kali. You know, Google is not the answer for everything, especially for tantra and the goddesses. So you got to relax, start with gentle energies. That's why I said, you know, keeping it simple would be the best way. You don't want to jump to the Kali. It's like skipping the first, you know, 10 grades and going to college straight. If you start meditating on kali through Google, YouTube and other online sources, you may be meditating on the wrong energy altogether. It may not even be Kali. It may be some other random energy that you are tapping onto. And If I skip 10 grades and go to college, I'm going to fail the school, I'm going to piss off the professors, I'll be kicked out of the school. And that's what starts to really happen when these people start these kind of, you know, random practices. So not at all recommended to go into the path of Tantra or Kali by picking up information. But when you started gentle and organic, you will know where you want to go toward. Because, you know, you have to understand because you, you come across a lot of these seekers that the idea of tantra or spiritual awakening is very fancy, it's very seductive, very attractive, very inviting. But the work is not seductive. Work is work. It's effort, it's discipline. So you got to relax the fantasy and be willing to do the work. It's not going to happen through your own terms and conditions. That's one thing that I really wanted to cultivate and make it one of my major policy or ethical philosophy that this work is not going to happen based on your terms and conditions. So if you are willing to let go of your terms and your conditions, then you can walk in. And I knew I couldn't afford to do that in the very beginning because, you know, I was. I left Wall Street. I needed to build a client base, I needed to make living. So I stopped. I didn't use the word tantra also in the beginning. It was only after I knew my power, my strength, my weaknesses, and my own, you know, journey into tantra. I started 20 grade these, you know, important rules and regulations that it's going to be disciplined. It's going to be freedom. But freedom comes with discipline. So you have to let go of the terms and conditions. And that's a good disclaimer for everyone, I think.

And I think just seeking out people who really know about the Goddess's energies. I think a lot of us jump too quickly to want to become experts in things that we haven't really researched. I mean, I've seen there's so many of these Goddess groups out there. And then I'm like, what do you guys do? And they're like, oh, we just like say the. I'm like, do you know anything about her story? Where she came from, her origins, the branches related to them? And they just don't know anything. They just want to honor the Goddess. And I'm happy that the Goddess is coming out and we're talking about it, but like, let's dive deep. Let's know her story, let's know her symbols, let's know her forms. That's the only way we can honor her.

Exactly. Like, we live in a certified spirituality culture. Everyone wants certificates and it's so easy to get certificates now. Like, I saw someone, you know, before, you know, I was going to India and I saw someone who was like, I'm interested in Reiki and all these things. And when I came back from India after like 15 days, she was a certified Reiki specialist.

Right. It's a, it's like a one or two day thing.

Yeah, Kundalini is a weekend.

I'm even a Reiki thing, but I never call myself one because I definitely don't know how to do it.

Kundalini is a weekend thing. Everything is a weekend thing. And if you make it longer than a weekend and no one will sign up right. So in this culture of certification, it's.

Like fast food spirituality.

Absolutely. And people ask me, so, Chandrash, the day you'll have tantra certification, I'm going to join it. I'm like, that's why I'm not going to do it.

Well, I think it's also, you know, some people may naturally be incredible at Reiki, and they don't even need the training. The training just cultivates, I think, certain skills, certain gifts, certain goddesses come to us and then we do the training to fine tune it. Like, you might be naturally good singer, but you're not going to be Adele until you do the tr.

Absolutely. That's my way of understanding these norms and these educational forms. I honestly, I never ever thought I'll be a tantra teacher. It's always been a highly sacred term for me. I never called myself a tantra teacher until people started calling me one. And I needed a label, the term to describe my work, because people would always be like, I don't know what you do. And I knew what I was doing, but I was. Was very hesitant to put this word out there because.

Especially because of politicizing of the word of like tantra. Sex guru.

Yeah. And I knew I had to explain a lot. And there have been certain podcasts where they would title me as the sex guru or tantra guru, and I would tell them I'm not sex guru, and they would say, what's your fear, generation? What's the fear that's coming up? Maybe it's your own trauma. If you call me a doctor and if I say I'm not a doctor, it's not a trauma, it's just not my title.

Right.

So I knew what. What's selling out there and what they would want to create out of me. And it's challenging and sexual energy.

You know, I see a lot of people, especially in the spiritual communities I lived in, like in Goa and in Bali, where there's a lot of tantricas, tantrics, and you open up this pot that you might not be able to close, like, they stir up all the sexual energy. And it might. And it's not from sex. Like, it could be from Kundalini practices, breath work practices, dance practices, et cetera. And then these people have all this energy streaming through them. They don't know where to direct it. And then sometimes, you see, they just, like, I don't know, take different paths that might not be in alignment with their truth or, or just end up in chaos and drama and, you know, sexual energy is the strongest energy that we have present in our bodies. So that's why you have to, like, first just be able to hold in your own energy on a daily basis before you bring that element into it. In the. In the Taoist jade egg practices, they say you should be doing these practices of moving energy through your body for years before you actually bring the jade egg involved. That is just like the advanced level of, like, okay, you know how to do the push up now I'm going to put some weights on you.

Absolutely. It's a number of years that, you know, you need to invest. Number of years. I didn't know it was number of years, but after going through it for a number of years, I realized, oh, it will be even more number of years, and it's probably a lifetime. Meditation has to be a strong part of healing and cultivating your sexual energy into your higher consciousness. And when you relate to your sexual energy through meditation, through spirituality, it won't become an obsession. It won't become something that you need to go through every single day or every single week. One sexual experience can satisfy you for weeks or even months because you experience an orgasm experience, something that's very cosmic, very, very powerful. Right now, the challenge is, for most people, the relationship with sexual energy is very physical but very much focused on releasing and getting rid of that tension. They can't sleep. They'll. You know, in Seinfeld, there's this episode being the king of the domain or master of the domain. So they all decided, we want masturbate. And whoever does it, they'll have to put in, chip in, like, $20. They lose their bet. And Kramer, I don't know if you saw the Seinfeld ever.

No, I've never seen it.

Yeah, so Kramer, as expected, he lost it within, like, five minutes. And it basically showcased how it's such a burden, such a heaviness in the body, you know, that you need to release it. And when you go deeper into the work of tantra, meditation, spirituality, sexual energy becomes any kind of energy within. So when that energy goes upward, it becomes cosmic and spiritual. And when it dips down, it becomes biological. And for certain times, you need that biological energy, especially if you want. If the plan is to make babies. But if the plan is to elevate yourself spiritually or cultivate that higher awareness, then that energy has to go upward. And I'll tell you the time when you feel that sexual urge. We know in. In the modern terms, when you feel horny, you meditate. You know, that urge to you know, masturbate or going into a sexual experience that has to be transferred into meditation at that time. If you can do that, you'll start to see something very different happening. I've not only experimented and lived in my own journey, but I have shared it with a lot of people and it's very recent. I started sharing it publicly. I avoided sharing it publicly, but I wanted to take it to certain deep and higher levels before I could share it publicly. And I can confidently say that when you're feeling peak of any emotion, anger, sexual energy, greed, ego, laughter, curiosity, addiction, pause in that moment and go deeper into your meditation. You know, go through the inhaling, holding, exhaling, and suggest your energy to find an upper outlet. Suggest your energy to go toward the heart center, the throat, the third eye, the navel. It will all join you. But stick to the heart, because if I'm giving this advice on a podcast, I would say stick to the heart center, the safest center.

Yeah, definitely. And I mean, there's just so much there. This could be a whole other conversation of moving orgasmic energy through your chakras and men holding in their ejaculation, using that life force for creativity. And, and there's so much there. But the reason why we had this like long and deep conversation about sadhana and that practice is like, yes, it's super fun to talk about all this stuff, but make sure you have your daily practice first. So then when this stuff comes in, then you're, you know, if you've never meditated, and now the first time you want to meditate is when you're having an orgasm. That's going to be very hard.

Absolutely, absolutely. That's why God to guess. Keep it simple, seekers. You know, you got to start there. That's the only way it will prepare you to dive deeper into higher practices. It's like joining gym. You have never been to gym. Okay. Stick to treadmill for a month, then do little other warm up exercises for another two or three months and then you can push yourself slowly, otherwise you'll hurt yourself.

Absolutely. Well, we talked about so many incredible subjects entered into the vortex. So where can listeners connect with you and learn more with you? Get your book, all of that. Listen to your podcast.

Yeah. So you inspired me to start the podcast. Yes. Credit has to be given to Sahara Rose because I remember I was telling her, I want to start a YouTube, I think, and she was like, start a podcast was not my comfort zone. And that's why I was like, I think I should start it. And I highly respect everything that comes from you, so you were the only one that I trust.

I just selfishly wanted to listen to it.

Yeah, no, I'm so glad you got me to start it. So the podcast is out there. It's called Break the Norm Norms. That's the title of my book. But majorly, I share a lot of my stuff on my Instagram, which is CB meditates. And the podcast Break the Norms and book Break the Norms happened two or three years ago. But it takes into a lot of tantra teachings and it's a more, I think, practical way to integrate the tantra practices into your daily life. But that's where you all can find me.

Well, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us.

Thank you, Sarah.

And I'm looking forward to meditating with you next. How are you feeling after receiving all of that incredible information and really transmission of ancient Tantric wisdom that so few people are able to receive? I'm so grateful for him sharing this work because tantra really has been something that has been more secretive, more orally passed on, not shared to the public. And I'm very grateful for him for taking this opportunity to share with us something so openly that most do not. So he is a delight. I highly recommend checking out his work, working with him, going on his retreats, and just diving deeper into tantra in general. And he will definitely be an expert guest in Rose Gold Goddesses as well, teaching us to work more with the goddess Kalima. So in Rose Gold Goddesses, if you are a member, you will be able to participate in that. And if you would like to become a member, you can join. Do so over@rosegoldgoddesses.com I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you loved it, I would love if you could leave me a review in the itunes store and as a free gift, I will share with you the first half of my unreleased book, Eat Right for your Mind body type. Simply email a screenshot of your review over to Saharaetfieldfresh.com again, Sahara S A H A R aattfeelfresh.com and I will send you over the first half of my unreleased book, Eat Right for your Mind body type. Thank you and namaste.