292: Racial Issues From a Shamanic Perspective with Tatyana Rae

Namaste, it's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self podcast, a place to discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. If there's One thing that 2020 has taught us, it is that awakenings aren't easy. Awakenings aren't glamorous. They aren't being in your beautiful tie dye shirt with your crystals, meditating to Hare Krishna. Sometimes they are, but not always. Awakenings bring up shadows. Shadows are aspects of yourself and aspects of society that you have chosen not to look at because they feel too heavy, they feel too dark. And even this word of light and dark, I don't like it because it perpetuates the problem that black is wrong. And this is the shadow that we are awakening to right now, that we have subconsciously since the beginning of this country perpetuated the story that black is wrong. Black people are wrong. Black people are second class. If you aren't aware of the history of the United States, I encourage you to read a wonderful book by someone named Howard Zinn. And Howard Zinn wrote People's History to the United States. And essentially it talks about actually what this country was based off of, which many of you guys know began because people wanted freedom and wanted liberty and justice for all, which was beautiful. But because of the group think, it turned into thinking that it's okay to use people for free labor. That if you buy them from their owner, then it's okay because you've paid for them. Not that you're paying them, but you've paid for them. It's almost like sometimes I'm like, how could someone have thought that was okay? But I think about the things that we don't question in our society today. And back in those days, it wasn't questioned. You had a building to build. Well, you weren't going to do it, so you would buy a human a slave. Not so different still in India use the word servant. It's not so different. So our history has been based off of slavery. About 265 years of slavery, and then another hundred or so years of just this systematized oppression where people were forced to live in certain areas because they were black. They were forced to only drink out of certain water fountains because they were black. They were forced to sit in the back of the bus. We all know the story of Rosa Parks, and it did not begin with Rosa Parks. I remember my own grandfather told me he's from Iran, but he came to this country as a visitor when he was in the Iranian army. And it was during the time of the segregation, which was between about 1865 to 1964, so which was crazy. 1964 is like 50 years ago. 50 something years ago. So he came at this time and you know, he's a brown person, as am I. And he got on a bus and they said, well, you can't sit in the front of the bus.

You know, you're not white.

And he went to the back of the bus, they were like, well, you can't sit in the back of the bus, you're not black. And the same thing happened. He couldn't eat at any restaurants, he couldn't do anything. Because America has been built on the system that you are white or you are black. And if you look at the one drop rule, the one drop rule was essentially saying that if you have one drop of black in you, in your blood, you are black. And it's. If you actually look at this concept of white and black, it's duality, it's the, the language that politicians use. You are with us or against us. And it is fear. It is fear of the other. It is the fear of. You are different from me. I don't understand you. So I'm going to be afraid of you and I'm going to come up with many stories of why I should be afraid of you. And then when you get angry that I'm afraid of you and that I've oppressed you, I'm going to use that to be even more afraid of you. And it continues. And I will definitely do a solo cast on this and the racism that I've experienced in this country and going more into that. But on Friday, which was just three days ago, which already feels like a lifetime ago because it was before these weekend of protests, before they had started, and the shifts that they have made, which I'm sure by the next couple days when I do, my solo cast will be at an even different place. So now on the podcast, I am like, I am recording these like the day before because the world is changing so fast that within one week things become like obsolete. So I recorded this on Friday, two, three days ago. And I wanted to dive into what is really happening from a spiritual and from a shamanic perspective. And we just had Tatiana Ray on the podcast last week, so many of you were saying it's been one of your favorite interviews so far. If you don't know her, she's a 69 year old shaman from the Aztec and Toltec traditions. So she's Native American and Mexican. Studied with Don Miguel Ruiz for a decade. A high priestess, extremely wise, extremely gifted in her shamanic abilities. But what I love about her is she really makes it relatable and understandable. So I was. I was curious for myself. I sent her a text. I was like, what do you think is happening? You know, from. From your perspective? I'm genuinely curious. She's like, let's hop on a call tomorrow, so I'll tell you. I was like, you know what? Let's record it so I could put it on the podcast. Because I know I'm not the only person who, you know, is looking at what's happening in the 3D reality 100% and, and also wondering what's happening from higher points of consciousness. As we always talk about on the podcast, there's a 3D, 4D, 5D perspective on everything. And the 3D is important, not to bypass, not to overlook. There are black people that are being killed for senseless purposes, and the system is based off of racism. That's a fact. And it's important to question 4D, the media narrative of what we're being taught, what the languaging that they are using, what is the. What are the continual videos they keep cycling? And also now we are seeing that many of these people entering, taking advantage of the protests are not protesters. They are looters. They are rioters. They are not part of the Black Lives Matter movement. Many of them are white. There's tons of footage of it. And they're taking advantage of this opportunity to steal, to just break windows. There are videos of an undercover white cop just breaking windows. And it is very, very sad that it is given this movement a bad name. And it's taken. It's taken the focus off of what is this actually about? It's about black lives being senselessly killed. But now we're just focused on, oh, but the looters are doing this. And that which we can all agree it is wrong to loot, it's wrong to steal things. But we're losing the plot here of why this even began. So I'm committed on the podcast to actually speak about the root cause of things. What does racism really come from? Why is this happening from the highest level? Why is this happening? And then how can we, within ourselves, commit to ending the prejudices and the racism that we carry internally? Because as is the macrocosm, so is the microcosm. The external world is a reflection of your internal reality. So on this episode, I sit down with Tatiana Ray to speak about the racism happening but after speaking out, the racism happening, I actually wanted to dive into some very taboo topics here, taboo topics in the spiritual community because they are very divisive. But I know people have questions on them and I'm not going to bypass anything that can help us elevate consciousness. So I asked her her opinion on cultural appropriation, her opinion on can you study shamanism if you're white? Can you do practices that is not native or indigenous to you? And you'll actually be very, very surprised by her answer. This is again, coming from a very, very renowned, intelligent shamanic practitioner. So the topics that we discuss, they're heavy. They are heavy. And it is important to be in a grounded place when you listen, don't listen. When you're like super frantic, you've just gone down this rabbit hole. Breathe, tune in, tap in. Because again, like I said, with coronavirus, we're in this for the long run. Pace yourself, take care of yourself, keep breathing, keep committing to your daily practices. Because it's just the beginning, y'.

All.

We haven't even reached the six month point of 2020. I do believe 2021 is going to be a lot lighter, but we're not fully done with the work of this year. And that is what a lot of people think, because these issues are coming to surface. And they're not new issues, they're issues that have always been there. And I would love to see more issues with racism, with patriarchy, with homophobia, with classism, with all of these things show up. With all the wars that we're doing across the world, with economic wars, all of the media, all of these things are coming to surface. And if they don't come to surface and we're like, we only want to talk about the love and the light. Well, the love and the light are the natural response to what happens when you move through the shadows. So I invite you to enter this conversation with an open mind, an open heart, willing to hear, willing to learn. Again, this is one interview and one conversation. I can never, even if I recorded 100 episodes, get to the bottom of racism. Because it's so nuanced, it is so complex, it is so multi layered. So I don't want you after this. Oh, well, you didn't talk about this and you didn't bring in that you didn't. I can't because it's only an hour. I'll keep talking about it and Rose Gold goddesses. I'm committed to having conversations and I am someone who's super, I think healthy dialogue is really important. And keep in mind this is one interview with one person and we're never.

Going to get to the root of.

Everything in our lifetime. So the best that we can do is to start somewhere. And if you're feeling overwhelmed with all of the things I have in the show notes, some resources for you to educate yourself on anti racism. So how to be an anti racist, how to actually take a stance against racism because you might say, oh well, I'm not racist. I love all people. I don't see any color. Not knowing that that's actually a sign of your privilege. Because a person of color has no choice but to see their color because their color could put them in danger. I'll talk more about that on my solo cast. So come in with an open mind and open heart. Know that there's so much more to this discussion. That's this discussion is always evolving. Right now my friend Coya Webb is about to come over. We're about to have another conversation on this. So know that wherever you are in your process, that is okay and that is perfect. And we get to be uncomfortable and we get to talk about things that don't always feel good. Because when we talk about them and we move through the tears and the pain and the anger and the sadness, then we can come back to our natural state as bliss and joy. So without further ado, let's welcome back Tatiana Rae to the Highest Self Podcast.

Foreign.

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Welcome back Tatiana to the Highest Self podcast. It's so great to have you here.

Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm very excited to share with you again. Thank you.

So the listeners just loved your perspective.

And the way that you bring such, such an ancient understanding to concepts that we struggle with today and especially in the news right now. The past week has been about the racial issues that as. And in your time here, 69 years on this planet have experienced a wide range of racial issues. But for a lot of people it feels shocking and new. So I wanted to understand your perspective from a shamanic and spiritual perspective of what's really happening today and how can we be allies to help, you know, create more equality in the world.

Well, without getting into too much spirituality, I hesitate to even say it that way, Sahana, because life is about spirit. Life is us embodying ourselves as life. I like to say you experiment, you explore, you express and then you have to expose. And then you go back into experimenting, exploring, expressing, and then you have to expose. And so what is happening in general right now that many, many people of your age group have not experienced is the hatred. Okay, the hatred. But this has never gone away since the moment I was born. You know, in 1951, Second World War had ended around 1945 B.C. were the baby boomers because all the men came home and made a lot of love and here we are. And for the longest time we were the largest generation, you see. So what I experienced just in my time is the race riots in Watts, you know, Rodney King, O.J. simpson participating in what he did with his family and all of that. And yet he had enough money to safeguard himself to a certain extent, you see. And then recently you all got to participate with. I'm sorry, I don't remember how to say his name perfectly, but the football player that knelt, Kasperzyk, is it? But that gentleman, you know, and everybody was up in arms about that. I think that's interesting that we got so insulted that he knelt at the song being sung and the flag being raised. Because when we as people of color, let's say, because whites in that also, you know, their color is white, or as I call my husband, he's a pink person. My husband is German, you know, and he's pink, he's pink. You know, we are people of color. What has happened though throughout the ages is the color of white has assumed a superior stance. And it has not let go of that stand. It has not let go what we are in right now. And as all of you are listening, you know, let's listen. And open minded, you don't have to believe me, but let's just listen for a moment because I'm speaking from a shamanic point of view. What does that mean? That means that we see the energies at play that then play out as our lives. Basically what we are in right now and have been in for centuries are tribal wars, tribal sections against sections. In the ancient times, tribes were very necessary and they happened quite naturally because we didn't have the roads, we didn't have the vehicles, you know, the wheel had to be invented. And I'm really going back into ancient times. So the sustenance of staying alive and thriving was built on people getting along together and claiming little parts of their terrain in order to maintain the, their connection with hunting, or if they were hunter gatherers, maintaining their connection to the crops they were able to grow. Okay, so being these peoples was very important. And these tribes then developed specialties. They were specialized tribes. There were the tribes that were the hunters really known for being great hunters, were the tribes that were known for being wonderful artists. You see, there were the tribes that were known to be more spiritual and in tune with the goddess. Everybody kind of developed their own niche of sustenance. And by that way we were able, we as several tribes were able to Continue and prolong the human race. And in the beginning, we stuck with our own. Not color, but our own people, of our own tribe. Because that is what we were accustomed to. That is what we had been taught. That is where we were safe. And what we are talking about right now, Sahara, is what everybody talks about anyway all the time. From the moment we wake up to the moment we go to sleep. Am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe in my job? Am I safe in my car, on my way wherever? Are we safe at the park? Are we safe from the sun? Am I going to get a sunburn? Am I safe from the inclement weather? Am I safe? These tribes ensured that certain arts were safeguarded. And even, I don't even know what you would call it, husbandry, I believe, you know, with the sheep and the cows and the animals. Well, many tribes specialized. And so let's say the people in Tibet, they specialized in the very, very high tippy top mountains. And they had their sheep and they had their horses that specialized. And they were able to keep that part of our planet quite alive and sacred. You see, then there were the. Oh, my God. There were the people in the deserts. I mean, you plucked me down in the desert, even telling me what to do, I'm not going to last. These people had ancient heritage that came with marrying within these tribes. So history was kept alive. The planet was cared for. This was lost. We no longer care for our planet. We no longer care about our planet. And I'm going to get emotional here, but in the ancient times, we were in tribes because we were like caretakers. We were caretakers not only the animals, but of the land that we were accustomed to, where our generations upon generations had tended that part of the planet. The planet. The land, yes, but the planet. And once industrial revolution came along and we lost our connection to that, we are now in a revolution. But I would love this revolution to become evolution that leads to transformation, not just this ongoing revolution. And when I say revolution and tribal wars, it is very frightening to have anything that is different. Frightening because the first thing that we think of is, am I safe? Am I safe? I know I spoke with some people last night, one of the classes I gave, and I said when my next door neighbor moved in, they're from India, I didn't know who they were. I just saw the truck and I never got to see the people. And she was cooking the day or so after, and the smells from her food wafted over. It was summer, we all had our doors open and it Was very, very pungent. And I remember going, oh, dear. And I am saying there was a prejudice in me not to the people, but to the smells from her food. I had no idea what culture that was from. I just know it was. To my knowing it was very pungent. It was very pungent. I said, oh, wow. And then after a few days, like I suppose you would say, I got used to it, you know, and then I found it lovely. And then about. About a week and a half after that, she came to my home and she brought me a big bowl of something that she had rice and vegetables in it. And it smelled so beautiful to me, you see? And my husband and I ate it. It was delicious. It was delicious. What I'm sharing this for is because what was my first impression, my first impression, even without seeing her skin color or where she was from or anywhere, was just, I didn't like it. I didn't care for how it smelled. And that's just talking about a fragrance. That's not talking about how we dress when we look different to each other, how when we speak, it's different for each other. We have all these ways of being and interacting and sharing that are so soothing when they're within our tribe. When you're with your people, it soothes you. There are little nuances that you're accustomed to. There are little inside jokes that you're accustomed to. There's music that gets played that lifts you and temporarily takes you to your grandma's house or stories that your father has told you as a child. But it's soothing. Familiarity is soothing. And this is what we look for. And what's happening right now is our world, our universe is asking us to find each other as soothing. We are being asked to truly look at each other as different, but lovable. You see? So these tribal wars are so ancient in our DNA, we immediately get very, very unnerved. And we don't even know. Looks like it's about color of skin. It looks like it's about how their food smells. It looks like about how when they're speaking their language, it. You know, why can't they speak English? You see, I come from a family that we spoke Spanish, and my dad and his people spoke Apache. You see, I learned English as my first language, but I always heard other languages in the background. So when I go out into the world and hear other languages, it's not unnerving to me. But I can imagine how if you learn English and your mother and your grandmother and your grandmother and your Grandmother only speak English. And then your father and his fathers and fathers and fathers only speak English. And your aunts and your. If you only ever hear that, I can imagine that other languages would be unnerving. So in these tribal wars right now, what we want to do is remember, it looks like it's about the skin color. It looks like it's about not understanding each other. But what it's about is we are offended by being asked to integrate. We're offended by that. That's cellular. That's DNA. And I'm not excusing our actions right now. I'm not excusing them. And why does it look like in our country of America that it seems to be centering on black people? Well, we forget that the Indian people were already wiped out. The American Indians, okay? So. And I'm not trying to bring or make trouble. We're talking about tribal wars, you see? And so, no, the American Indians were wiped out. They were decimated. And now they're broken. They're a broken people. They're a broken tribe. So now onto the black people. And I have to say, is it possible that the black people as a tribe refuse to be broken? Is it possible that they also refuse to be integrated? I don't know. I'm not a sociologist. I'm looking at this from energy. From energy. And what I absolutely know is that right now, we are all in sorrow. We're grieving. We're grieving as a nation and as a world because I know you and I have clients all over the world. And they're writing me. And they're so sad. They feel the sadness of what's happening here in America, but it's happening all over the world right now. And peoples that have been really, really tribal, like Afghanistan, for instance, they're very still very, very ancient in their tribal heritage. Iran, very ancient in their tribal heritage. India, still, they call it the caste system. But they're very ancient in their tribal systems. You go to remote villages, and they still have guidelines and rules that are hundreds of years old, you see? So what we're looking at right now is what's happening in Europe. All of these ancient countries, Turkey, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, they're being broken up, supposedly by our wars. They're having to leave home. They're trying to get into Greece, they're trying to get into Italy, they're trying to get into Germany. They're trying to get into all these countries to relocate. England, they're not being accepted. They don't speak German or they don't speak English or they don't speak French, you see? And then these tribes of these people, let's say they're from Turkey, they speak Turkish. So when they go to this new country, that's the language they know for now. These are the foods they know for now. This is the dress that, for now, they grew up with. To get integrated for them can be very, very costly and traumatic. That's like taking you and me and having a sheep herder, ladies, you know, And I'm going to say, where's my high heels? And you're going to say, where's my headphones? You know, it's upsetting. It's upsetting. So right now, what's happening in the world energetically is we are being asked. The energy is asking us to meld. The energy is asking us to come together separately, but together. And I guess what we're forgetting, because we're not taught this in school, you will never find anyone like you. You are the only you, even within your tribe. And there are those like yourself, like myself, within our tribe, that we've caused a certain upset within our tribes because we have deviated somewhat from the guidelines, have we not? You see? And so even within the tribes, there's those who deviate and cause a certain unrest. Well, can you imagine when the entire tribe is asked to deviate and to do it new and to accept new? We are not accustomed to accepting new. We are accustomed to what we are accustomed to. And it sounds like I'm repeating myself, but one thing that I did notice that's being posted, many of the people said, oh, I couldn't watch it. I couldn't bring myself to watch it. I couldn't bring myself to watch it. I didn't want to watch it, but I watched it. And I watched it because I didn't want to use the privilege of having a button to push and say, oh, I want to be able to sleep tonight. Oh, I don't want this image in my mind. I can do that. Even if I'm. I call myself Cinnamon. I'm Brown red. So even if I'm a Cinnamon person, I still have a certain privilege right now that I can push a button and not watch that. You see? Now, I watched it because that is not, to me, a black brother. That to me is a brother, and he's suffering, and. And there are other brothers there that had a part in his suffering, and I'm a part of that. So what can I do at this point, Sahara, the most important thing to do is Just to acknowledge that we don't suffer. Those of us who don't suffer need to acknowledge that we don't suffer. And people are not willing to say that, no matter what their color. And I'm colored, I have a color. My husband is a pink person. I'm not, you see. But I do have to say, have I really ever felt prejudice because of my skin, Because I'm Mexican, because I'm Apache? No, I have felt prejudice. As a woman. I haven't even felt prejudice because of my age. But as a woman, I have felt prejudice. Now, that's interesting, don't you think? No, not from my color, not from my age, but as a woman, I have known prejudice, you see? So there is always going to be a place in everybody's heart that we scare you, I scare you, you scare me. I don't soothe you, you make me uneasy. And so right now, what I'm doing is, I am praying that we can begin to feel the pain in a way that we just want to settle in and calm ourselves and open up to change. Open up. I pray, I say, please, please open me up to change. Because what does that mean? What does that change mean? I don't know. I don't know what it means. But a drastic change has to come where we accept and we're willing to accept to be loving and kind and inclusive. I mean, when we stop and think about it, Sahara, to think that we have military, that we train these people to kill and we send them to other countries to kill. To kill. I mean, that's insane. And it's completely acceptable. It's completely acceptable. And it has gotten to the part, you know, God bless the police in the sense that those that are kind and good and believe in what they're doing, and then there's those that are up to no good. Because I have to say right now, I have to say, it seems to be happening to men. I have to say, I just. Last night, when I was pondering that we were going to be speaking, you know what I realized? I'm afraid that what happens if one of my sons gets pulled over? Not because they're of color, but what if they get a policeman that's not a kind policeman? What if they get a policeman that has a mindset, unlike those who have gone into the police force to be of service to humanity? And it's the first time in my life that I ever thought that way. First time in my life where I thought, whoa, I have to look at this. I can feel a little Bit of fear. If my boys are out and they get pulled over. The profiling of people of your color and from where you come from, not you personally, but your tribe, they're always profiled. There's a fear that has us now shamanically. Let's look at what is this fear? Why was I afraid of new smells? Something very simple is food was cooking in the summer, it wafted over and the first thing I did was, oh my, what's that? What's that? Why was that's fear? Because I got on alert. I didn't go, oh wow, what's that? I went, what's that? You see, my spine got stiff, I got ready, I'm looking around. What scared me about Smell, Smell something different smelling, you see, I looked at it and I said, oh, okay. It's just that I'm accustomed to certain fragrances when people are cooking. I've never had that fragrance waft before. I realize now it's called saffron. And my body instinctively went into reptilian brain and got ready for fight or flight. It's that simple. It's that simple. My body did what it's supposed to do and it got ready to fight for flight simply from saffron floating through my windows. If that can happen to me, an educated woman, a kind woman, an open minded woman over my neighbor's cooking. Can you imagine what other people feel in terms of fear and anger? How can we kill somebody? How can we willfully kill somebody? It's fear. It's absolute fear. So now to all of you that are listening, be with. If you don't use the word pray, then be with. Ask for petition. Allow that your energies become more accustomed to different. That different actually becomes a curiosity. That different draws us forth. That different allows us new brain cells to be activated. That diversity helps us to grow and glow. That different soothes. Soothes because it tickles our imagination. I wonder what that is. What is that? What? You know how. One thing I can say about the ladies who wear the scarves on their heads, the Muslim ladies, I've always wondered how they keep it up because whenever I put a scarf on, it always slips off my hair, you know. And I asked a lady one time and she said they have this little pad thing and they put it on and then they put the scarf up and it keeps the scarf on top of the hair because the hair is so soft it would slip off. You see, that's. I thought, great. She educated me. She educated me my curiosity. I was respectful when I asked her and she could feel my respect and my curiosity. And she was very open to answering my question. You see, she was happy to help me understand how she dresses and how she keeps the scarf on her head, see, on her hair, because our hair is so silky, you know? So what I'm saying then is let's let diversity inspire us, not intimidate us.

I love that.

And also, if we look at. Historically, divide and conquer has been the biggest political strategy. I know in Iran and the Middle east, that's exactly what the British colonialists have done, and making the Shias and the Sunnis, the two sects of Islam, fight so much against each other that instead of focusing on the oppressor, it's a battle between Saudi Arabia and Iran, and everyone's taking sides. And they've done this in every part of the world. And sometimes I see how they can be perpetuating a narrative of if you're black, you're going to die, and using a very real, very racist and very wrong thing to perpetuate more fear and more division. And just looking at how this has been the plan in every single country that has been colonized, how do you see this being used against us today?

Fear. The word is fear. I don't want to deviate too much, but even with the coronavirus, I don't want to go into all the statistics and everything, but there have always been illnesses, and there have always been people dying from illnesses. I have great suspicions as to why this particular illness is so important when it comes to us dying. I have a particular suspicion about the fear that is being perpetuated through this coronavirus. Okay. And absolutely, it's not, like I said, it's not about the black or the white or the pink or the yellow or green. It's about perpetuating fear. The only way you can control is through fear. And the only way we can live is through community. In the beginning, these tribal systems began to reinforce community, like I mentioned, and to reinforce being able to thrive. Okay? Now, whoever took over, and yes, it looks like the white people took over, but let's just say whoever took over wants to stay in power, and they can only stay in power by ruling. And how do we rule? We rule through fear. We do. We divide, we call the herd, and then we take the weak ones, and those are the ones that we can manipulate the easiest, you see? So it's all about fear. So when I say I pray at night, I pray to have my heart opened and my mind and my soul open to open me to diversity. Wherever there is a place in me that is afraid of something new, shine a light on that. So fear cannot live in me. I don't want fear to be able to live in me. I don't want fear to be able to have one little toehold in my being. Because it is about. Our communities now are being divided. Who's wearing the mask, who's not wearing the mask. And now they're saying, if you don't wear the mask, it's not about you. It's about protecting. And you're not loving your neighbor. If my neighbor is that weak, he needs to stay home. I'll bring his groceries to him. So what is happening now? I really, really feel they have chosen the black people. What I hear also is the Asian people are being chosen because of having brought over supposedly all these viruses. Okay. And I heard that their community is starting to feel threatened. I know the Muslims and the Hindus have had their. Since 9, 11 had their threatening years. Okay? Do you see the word threat? Threat. That's to live in insecurity. To live in a way that you're afraid. You're afraid to go to sleep. You're afraid of who you're speaking to. You're afraid of what you're going to say. You're constantly measuring your energy output. So shamanically, what we're saying is you are life. You're going to have to express yourself. And right now, we are all indignant. What happened to a human is not okay. It is not just that he's a black male human, he is a human first. And we as humans are, must stand up for one another because to be mistreated for any reason, mistreated is not acceptable. And so what we want to do is we want to maintain our energy so that we are proactive in the way that you don't even want to go into rage and anger because that fogs your clarity. When you go into even too much sadness, your clarity leaves you. We need our clarity right now so that we can have our compassion and our nurturing available and then know what to do and how to gather, perhaps, and walk peacefully. This is not okay. There are more of us than there are of them. What we want to be is a we. We want to be we, not us. And them. We want we. And within that we, there's all these eyes. That's the diversity. Everyone has something to offer, and it has nothing to do with their color of their skin.

Well, this is the thing that. And this is very controversial. And I don't have an answer for this at all. I have definitely experienced a lot of racism and racial profiling, especially after 9, 11. So I completely understand that. And just being in the spiritual world for the past 10 years or so has also opened me to different perspectives. So the controversy lies in I understand wanting to be around people that only look like you. I have done that. You know, I grew up mostly white people, so I felt like the outsider. And the moment I went to college, I'm like, put me around all of the brown people, you know, because I felt more at. And then as I shifted, I realized that I don't need to be only around people who look exactly like me because there are so many different people that. That doesn't have to be my only unifier.

Correct.

I'm seeing a lot of people's first response is, let's only be around people that look like us and stuff like this. And I understand it creating more division. And I'm wondering if there even is a right way to go about this.

Because I see the spiritual bypass of.

Saying, color doesn't exist. We're all humans. We're all one race. I don't even see color. And that's what a lot of white spiritual people say. I don't even see color. I didn't even notice you were a person of color. And that's coming from their privilege. But also understanding the perspective of, well, then if only black people hang out and only Hispanic people and only Persian people and only this and only that, are we moving forward? So I'd love to hear your take on this.

Yeah. No, we're not moving forward. We're not moving forward. And the first thing, let's talk about spiritual people. I mean, who is that gentleman? Jp? Jp. I love him because he says. He says it so perfectly. You know, spiritual people have to be. You always know a spiritual person by what they drink and what they say and how they dress and all their. What would you call, routines. I call them routines. No, the moment anybody discovers something, they create a niche, they create a clique, they create a division. They create instead of taking it forth and sharing and not naming it. Why do I have to name what I do? Which is why I usually. I laugh. You know, I'm not a healer. I'm not a teacher, okay. If I have to have some kind of. To help people understand me, I mentor. What I really consider myself is I'm a rememberer. Okay? But, yes, you're absolutely correct. And you and I aren't sociologists. We're talking about this from an energetic level. And what we do, though, and this part is taught to us. We're taught. We are taught to create cliques. We are taught to create. I don't think we go about it to make division, but we definitely go about to get soothed. We definitely are seeking safety. We definitely are that. And we end up creating. And what's the buzzword today? Tribes. I found my tribe. Okay, no, no, don't. That's why. No, don't include me in your tribe. Please don't include me in your tribe. I am an energy. You are an energy. And however we can function together and uphold each other and sustain. Sustain each other and assist each other to thrive. Even this thing where women empowering women. Another. Another click. Another way to create division. Another way to create division in a way that. What about women who don't have the economic resources to even own a computer? How are they going to be in on these things? So, yes, it has everything to do with. We really, really need to look at. We want to be safe. Safe. And we want to be soothed in the process. We want to be safe and we want to be soothed. And anything different that doesn't assist in that, we don't want anything to do with. Which is why we are looking for our place within these cliques.

But I see in the spiritual community, and this is again, a very controversial.

Topic, but we'll go into it. This topic of cultural appropriation and this topic that a lot of.

A lot of white people feel like they never felt like they were part of a tribe. They feel like they don't have their rituals, their routines, their grandparents telling them things. They feel vanilla. They feel blah. They are.

But the reason they are. The reason they are, and God bless them, because they're the ones that decimated it. They did have that. They did have the Celtic. What would you call it? And the Gnosticism.

Yes, yes.

The Germans had all of their different rituals and ceremony. Yes, they had that. They had that. And they were the first ones to begin to erase it. They were the first ones to begin to erase this systematically. Systematically. And then they went out from white countries and they. Systematically. What's the first thing they do is they take away the religions or they make the religions fight. The first thing they do, you see? Yes, yes. Are they vanilla? Yes, they're vanilla. They're the first ones that decimated whatever holy connection they had to life.

But I think the people today feel like, well, I wasn't the one who did that and I feel very sorry that my ancestors did that to other people's ancestors. But I feel like I don't belong. And then they learn about shamanic practices, they learn about Sufism, they learn about all of these different things, and. And they might resonate, you know, with. With yoga, with ayahuasca, with something. And then this topic comes on of are you culturally appropriating by practicing rituals, practices from another culture? And again, I see both sides. I'd love to know for you, as, you know, as a shaman who grew up in the Apache and Toltec tradition, do you see a white person learning that cultural appropriation?

I see that they happen to be white this time. I see that this life. They have blue or green eyes and very fair skin and blonde brown hair. And I see that there's something within them that is resonating once again. Once again is resonating and finding solace, but finding a beautiful connection through whatever rituals or religions that they are led to. I don't see it as cultural appropriation. What I do feel is the appropriation part. No, I feel that they're led to it. It's coming out this time. They're white.

And that's like the rainbow prophecy that, you know, the native and indigenous people that were killed would come back in all colors of the rainbow to bring the traditions back. But there are a lot of people, especially from indigenous and native cultures, who feel strongly against it being practiced by white people, especially because it was illegal to do these practices until 1965. And they feel like now that it's legal, suddenly everyone is diving into it, monetizing it, branding themselves as an expert for it. When, for example, traditionally, Palo Santo was gifted to you by a shaman, it's not something that you, like, buy with.

Your five pack of rose quartz, Right?

Exactly.

It's like this really tricky thing of these. The remembrance of our lifetimes in these cultures, these practices coming back and how beautiful it is that they're becoming mainstream. And can anything become mainstream or without businesses being created around it?

Well, this is the other part, because what. What I'm. My message is. I would say my message today is it's about energy. It's not about creating another niche. Okay? And so when we're looking at cultural appropriation, I will say. I will say that, for instance, like the ayahuasca, you know, and I heard some people talking, oh, yeah, we're doing it every weekend. I've got this. This shaman that's helping us, you know, every. Every weekend, every other weekend for two or three months. And I'm like, holy shit. Oh my God. Are you serious? You know, no, the appropriation part is the disrespect. And to me, the disrespect and the hypocrisy now, now that's the appropriation. Because when true elders, true people, true shamans, okay, true. If they're in the healer, let's say, when they are really doing what their culture calls them to do, it is sacred. It is sacred and it is something that is not learned overnight. I mean, I was in training. I was in training with my grandmother, my father, with Miguel, you see. And then, you know, I don't talk about this other part, but I'm trained as a high priestess. There was 10 years for that. There was 10 years with Miguel. There was my lifetime with my dad till he died. Okay? It's not this thing where I see these people on social media and they're, they're shamans and they travel to the upper world and the middle world and the lower world. As you know what, they don't know what they're talking about. There's a hypocrisy there. Or the yoga people. I can't tell you how many workshops I've had. And my yoga people are the ones that are the most fucked up. They can't sit still, their backs hurt, their shoulders hurt, you know, their bodies and the lives they live. We have to be able to support what we say by how we live, how we live. So when I say I'm supporting no niches, I'm supporting a life that's transparent. I am supporting a life that you can come in and look at my marriage, you can come in and look at my relationship with my family, you can come in and look at my home, and you're going to find what I say you're going to find.

I think the issue is a lot of people want that they so wished they had a father and a grandfather or a teacher to, to pass along their knowledge, but they don't because there isn't this form of mystery school that we once had for so long. So they're feeling like the only place I have access to this is a three week online program. And because they feel so alone, they just start practicing with whatever they can. So how do you think that we can learn about these practices in a way that is in pure integrity with the culture?

Well, what I have done is I've taken it away from the culture, you see, because what we started talking about were the tribes, okay? And the tribes were very specialized to keep their different specialties alive. And it was necessary at the time. What I have done with my work is I trimmed all the fat when it comes to the superstition, even with the psychology, I've gotten rid of the psychological terms. I use the term, Mr. Potato Head. I use the term, you know what, you know. Okay, so what I've tried to do is to say it is sacred to live because all of these practices in the mystery. I'm qualified to open a mystery school. I'm qualified. And you know what? It would be a ten year program. Okay? It would be a ten year program. It would be a program that called for absolute devotion. Not to me, not to me, but to your desire. Your desire to live purely. Purely. And what does that mean? That means without hesitation, without any kind of presentation, without prejudice, you're not stupid. But you're living from the moment. And your eyes are open and wide awake and you can feel life coursing through you. And in that moment, you make a choice based on clarity. So these rituals that you're talking about, we have to remember that the peoples in those days that needed the rituals and that needed the stones in a little bag around their neck or, you know, or the tinctures that they went to or to the witches. And I use that in a very positive way. These people didn't have doctors, they didn't have dentists, you see. So truly, plant medicine, and I mean tinctures and eating dandelions, things like that, were very, very necessary for the health of humanity nowadays. What health do we need? We need spiritual health. We need to connect our mind to our heart. And so when you said, and I love how you said it, they don't have the grandparents, they don't have that history. And I'm saying where we are now as a planet is God bless the people, the aborigines and all the people that are still in very, very original type medicine. But even that has to shift. It has to shift to. Like you've done with the goddesses. Okay. And you and I spoke about how some people were a little bit offended. But what you've done is you've taken.

The superstition and the religious aspects of them.

Yes. And you're making it something that people can embrace energetically to assist their energy, to take this goddess and to call on her energetically so that she can imbue your energy with a certain strength or a certain softness or a certain understanding, so she can imbue you. So this is in the work I do, am I qualified to do ritual and ceremony and yes, yes, I'm qualified to open a mystery school. But what I would rather do is bring this, change its format and say, live purely. Stop lying. Don't say, oh, I'm not racist, I'm racist. You know why? The fragrance of my friend's cooking scared me. That's what we need to admit to, you see. So the cultural appropriation, they're not qualified to. Even with the best of intentions, they are not qualified to do them. It's a sham. It's a sham. And even with the yoga, the way it's being done and monetized, it's a sham. It's a sham. If we would call it exercise, they're right on. Because these lovely men and women that do this, beautiful poses and postures and asanas, and the way they can elongate their body and pull the light into their body and. And raise the health. That's what we're talking about. Okay, but in terms of how are they living their life? In order. No, no.

I think where it gets tricky is a lot of people think, first of all, who am I to change things? Right? Who am I to have an opinion on anything? And it brings up the whole imposter syndrome thing. And also, as you mentioned, that these practices do need to change with the population. For example, yoga, I think, you know, having studied yoga in India, it was completely different than I thought. There was no movement. You were just breathing. And I was like, what?

I want to do.

Back bends and all of these things. And I. And I understand it and I respect it, and I'm sitting all day in my life here. So that is why the population today does need something that might look more like exercise, because it's what they need. So I think the tricky part comes of, like, how can we adhere these practices for a way to really benefit what our needs are in this present moment, which is constantly changing while paying homage and respect to how they traditionally were. And then I also think different people play different roles.

Yes. And the homage and the respect, though, is the part we don't want to lose. We don't want to lose the respect. We don't want to lose the honor of where this comes from. Okay, so let's talk about. Yeah, Yoga, Yoga, it's all about breathing. Yes. Has nothing to do. And the asanas, they would take one asana for years and years and years and years and years. One asana. I know. You know that. You see, so what we forget, though, Sahara, is why. Why are we doing These practices. Why do we want these rituals and ceremonies in our life? Why will they book a session with me or yourself? Why? The why is living our life now. Living our life. Even when I went through a certain mystery school, I did, I did, you know, it always had to be integrated, integrated, integrated. So many people start this work, and I say for three reasons, Sahara. They start the work. Number one, to get a relationship, heal a relationship, or get out of a relationship. Number two, they're information junkies. Number three, they want to look spiritual, they want to look good. They want to look like they're on the cut, the leading edge of everything. And those are the three reasons that people generally come into this work. I will even say, being that I was reared this way, but when I really got serious about it, I wanted to save my marriage. My first marriage was all about, please, God, give me the strength to just be able to stay here until he can shift so that we can remain married. Yes, I used all my tools to make me strong to remain in the marriage. Yes, even I came from one of these three directions. Then hopefully, you begin to realize it's your life. You're clearing and clarifying. It's your life, your life force, you see? So I absolutely believe they have to change. The superstitions have to change. They do. They have. Everything's being asked to evolve. Everything is being asked to evolve. All I'm requesting is that no matter what practice you take on, to do it, knowing you change. You and I were chuckling just as we started, and I said, oh, yeah, everybody wants their life to change. They don't want to change, you see? And I'm saying, in any practice, any practice, let it affect you. Let it take you to the next level of self expression. And in that moment, then you are honoring. Then you are paying homage to it in its original form, its very original form. Yes, I can see how people want. We crave ritual, we crave ceremony. And it's very necessary in its own way. I would love to have more ceremonies because they're transitional points. We don't have transitional points right now. Very few marriage, maybe, but then that's been made into, how big is your ring? So we are looking as a family of man. As a family of man. We are looking for that place where we can come together in our diversity. So I absolutely, absolutely agree with you. The rituals, all the ways of being, must change with us. That's why I don't talk about the Toltec. I don't talk about Shaman. I talk about what Is your life. You know, I take it into everyday language, Everyday language, so that people can incorporate it.

And I think we need that diversity of the people who will be the scholars of certain cultures and the people who are here to create their own versions of it and everything in between. Because, you know, different lifetimes are about different things. And, you know, ours are like, we're here to be the revolutionaries, but another person's lifetime could be, you know, really studying the way that things were, being a historian, et cetera. So I think it's just honoring the call. And lastly, what suggestions do you have for people? Because I have some friends who are. Who are white, and they receive a lot of hatred and feedback around them, you know, practicing shamanic or any type of spiritual thing that comes from, you know, a cultural background. And it can be very confusing for them because they don't know, is it. Should I only stick to Celtic things if I'm white? Am I culturally appropriating? By being in other cultures, though, they are doing it with integrity? What advice would you have for someone who's in that situation?

I would say for them personally to look at, why are they drawn to what they're practicing? First of all, why are they drawn to that? What is it about what they practice that fulfills them, you know, that brings them joy and peace? I feel very strongly that we are led to what brings us joy. And once again, the people that are getting offended are the people of color, let's say, when. Especially when, I know, with the headdresses, you know, Apaches, we didn't have these elaborate headdresses. Not in my tribe. That's more Sioux, but the Plains Indians. And I can see why they get so angry, but I personally feel a lot of that has to be let go. When the girls wear the cornrows, and then the blacks get offended, when people put feathers in their hair, and then the American Indians get offended. The different areas of offense, let's call it. So for these people who are practicing various ways of being that were traditionally to a certain tribe, I say if they've been led to it, then they have to really investigate. They really have to begin to understand it from the core of its beginning. And do they? Do they? So that in the shifts they're making that it doesn't look like they know what they're doing. They have to come from a place of humility. They have to come from a place of understanding that this is so much older than any of their lifetimes, and they're being led to it, God bless them. But they can never, ever let go of the honor and the. The way you do it with your rose gold goddesses there, there's such honor, and there's a playfulness, and you've shifted it, you've changed it from what is traditionally how it's traditionally held. But I see when you put things up, that there's a playfulness and there's an honoring and there's an understanding, and you always link it back to. And you give. You give homage. You pay homage to the forefathers, know, to the ancestors. It's like taking music and, and. And having hip hop, you know, and then the grandma over here is listening to Charleston. But it's still music. It's still music. So I would say to them, just don't forget its ancientness as you modernize it, as you modernize it. And I feel a lot of times that's where even other people can feel, even if they don't know anything about it. But energetically, we're energetic bodies, they will feel an unrest. They'll feel a little embarrassment. They'll feel like, embarrassed for whoever's doing the ritual or the practice. And what they're actually feeling is a lack of honor, a lack of respect, a lack of really knowing the foundations of what they're presenting in a new way.

I love that. Giving it honor, but also knowing that you are called to the work for a reason.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You are called to the work. You are feeling toward that work. I always like to say, you don't see me lamenting that I didn't become a prima ballerina, you know, See, it never even occurred to me to take ballet lessons. That's how I say it to my clients. It never even occurred to me to take ballet lessons. And yet there are other boys and girls that all their life, they couldn't wait till they could afford those ballet lessons, you see? So no matter what we're called to, we are called to it. I firmly believe that. And like you and I spoke about purpose, your purpose. You give yourself your purpose according to what you're called to.

So beautifully said. Well, thank you so much, Tatiana, for your wisdom. Again, for the spur of the moment, it's the conversation that so many people are, like, trying to have alone in their minds. And I think people are afraid to talk about this type of stuff because it is so polarizing and emotional, especially right now. So thank you for bringing your clarity and your wisdom so we can all dive deeper into our. Our own. Our own mindset around These issues.

Thank you. And thank you for the wonderful questions. That's what I love about you. You have this sharp mind, and you can just, you know, synthesize everything, and then you come up with these great questions. Thank you.

Well, you know, I think we all have these questions. So what makes this podcast and speaking to people like you amazing is you're able to go into them. And I think so many people right now, especially in the spiritual space, are deflecting them. It's too much. They don't want to talk about it because they don't know what the answer is, and neither of us know the complete answer. But what I love about your wisdom is you're looking at it from this energetic perspective instead of getting so lost in the. In the semantics, which is what our news wants us to do.

Absolutely. You see, and no, no. We're being asked. We're being asked to melt together, and that's frightening. We're being asked to come together, and it's very, very frightening. It doesn't soothe us. It's different. Okay. And all of these other things are a result. So let us. Let us ask ourselves every day, you know, open me up more and more and more to different and to relishing different.

So beautifully said. Thank you again for being on the podcast.

Thank you. Bye, baby doll.

How amazing was that conversation with Tatiana Ray? What I love about her is she is not afraid of tackling the big conversations that most are afraid of. Most don't want to get into. They don't want to say the wrong thing or it be off brand. And I want you guys to know that a lot of people that I know who are in positions of influence are having a really, really tough time right now vocalizing because they don't want to say the wrong thing. And they're choosing to not say anything because they're so afraid of saying the wrong thing. And then not saying anything. Being silent is even worse. So know that if you're afraid of having this conversation, that it's better to just start it and make mistakes and learn along your way than to not have it at all and to pretend that it's not there. We have to look at these things. We have to go inwards. We have to question. We have to spark the conversation. Otherwise we're just going to remain stuck in our judgments around it. So in Rose Gold Goddesses, this is the community that I've created exactly for that spiritual discussions on all levels, whether it is the racism that is happening today and has been, whether it is spiritual awakenings, anything that is assisting you, elevating you, inspiring you. This is your place to have the conversation. So come join us in Rose Gold Goddesses. The link is rosegoldgoddesses.com over in the show notes and I am so excited to meet you inside. If you loved this episode I would love to send you a free gift which is the first half of my unreleased book Eat Right for your Mind Body type. This is a different book than Eat Feel Fresh, my first book ever which is not released anywhere and I am gifting it exclusively to those who leave a review of my podcast in the itunes store. So all you got to do is head over to itunes where you may be listening to this podcast and leave a review, take a screenshot that you've left it and email it over to me@saharaatfieldfresh.com again that's Sahara S A H A R A@eatfeelfresh.com and I will send you back the first half of my unreleased book Eat Right for your Mind body type which goes all into Ayurveda, doshas, plant based nutrition, body types, all of the things in a really fun and engaging way. So this is my gift to you for free for supporting the podcast. Every single review I personally read. It really helps the podcast be listened to by more people so we can raise the vibration of the planet together and I am so grateful to have you on this journey. Thank you so much, so much for listening and I'll see you on the next episode. Namaste.

Ra.