377: Choosing Intuition Over Fear with Mark Nepo

Namaste, it's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. I hope you are having an incredible start to your summer. I feel like this is a really important summer for us because we kind of did not have one last year. This is the chance that we finally get to have those beach days or camping nights or visit friends, family, and all of the things that we had taken for granted before 2020, we now finally have the chance to do so. I know for me, I really want to spend a lot of time with friends, play games, charades, dance, craft, make candles, all of the fun things. I literally am pretending like I'm in summer camp and doing all the things that I used to love as a child. And it's just amazing how the things that you love doing as a kid never leave you. We think that we're like adults and we outgrow them. And maybe when we were young teenagers, we're like, I don't like to play with dolls anymore. I don't like to do that. But then you go back to it. You're like, wait, that was really fun. So I've just been feeding my inner child and doing really crafty, artsy things that feel really good. And another thing that I actually love is listening to a podcast or an audiobook while painting or doing something with my hands, like macrame or weaving dream catchers. I actually feel like I retain the information better when I'm simultaneously doing something with my hand. So a little quick tip for you guys there. And also just on. On YouTube, I've been finding so many cool crafts. I actually painted the northern lights. And I am not a painter, but I just followed a YouTube video and I'm like, oh, my goddess. Here I am like Mona Lisa up in this. Not quite there yet, but it's been really fun and gratifying and joyful. And that has really been the theme of this year for me is how to cultivate more joy in my life, in my everyday, in my every moment, and how to actually create. Not from a place of need or feeling like I'm going to fall behind or feeling like I should or autopilot, but actually creating from a place of fun, which is what last week's solo cast was all about. So if you've not gotten a chance to listen to that yet, be sure to listen to last week's solo cast, which was me riffing on fun. And the week before that, which was me riffing on Joy and why joy is so needed right now. So be sure to tune into those now. Today's episode is one of my favorite conversations, and I really love every conversation that I have. But this is someone whose work has actually impacted my life in a time that I needed it most. So when I was 23 years old, I bought a one way ticket to Bali from India, where I was living. And I did not know anyone in Bali, and I did not know this.

But was kind of going through my.

Own hero's journey at the time of looking at all of my beliefs and childhood upbringing and really letting go of all the things that were not in alignment with my truth. And this was really the time that the seed of my dharma was planted. And I, more than anything, just wanted to write a book on Ayurveda, but I had no idea how to write.

A book, how to get it out there.

And it was really the most transformative period of my life. It was really these moments, months of just excavating my. My thoughts and my patterns and traumas and all of these things. And it was so powerful. And at the time, I would go to this yoga class every single day at this place called Yoga Barn that some of you may know in Ubud, Bali. And I remember the teacher, her name was Bex, and she, at the end of the class would always read this really beautiful poetry. And this poetry was by someone named Mark Nepo. And just the words were so powerful. And I would. I would just leave the class and go to my journal and like write all of these notes from this, this person's poetry. I had no idea who it was. I thought it was her friend or someone, but the words just spoke to me in such a powerful way. And to this day, I have kept this journal. Now, seven years ago, and when I was preparing for this, I just opened it up and I found all of these notes and all these quotes and.

Ways that I was like trying to.

Understand and his information to my life. And it was like hitting so hard, as well as questioning all these things that I thought that I knew. And in this episode, I got to share with him some of the things that I had written those notes about which I didn't even totally remember, but it was powerful enough in my life for me to write it down and we got to talk about it. So this is just one of those spiritual conversations that make you happy to be a human. We just dive in. It's just such like you're going to feel like you're sitting on a porch with us in like rocking chairs on a hot summer's day, watching the sunset, having some nice iced tea, talking about the meaning of life. Like that is the vibe of this conversation. So of course I ask him what his advice is for people who are.

Living their Dharma, by the way. And if you don't know who Mark.

Nepo is, he's an extremely famous and prolific author who has written so many books, most notably the Book of Awakening, which was a number one New York Times bestseller. He's published 12 books, recorded six audio projects, and is 70 years old and still just so relevant to the needs of today's people. So we talk about how to align with your purpose, how we can follow our intuition versus our fear, how can we tell the difference? How can we choose more joy? What does it mean to be awake and mindful of our lives? We talk about the ego and many just beautiful stories that he weaves into all of these lessons to bring it to life. So my heart just feels so full after this conversation and I know it will have the same resonance for you. So without further ado, let's welcome Mark Nepo to the Highest Self Podcast.

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Welcome Mark, to the Highest Self podcast. It's so great to have you here.

Wonderful to be with you. Thanks for having me.

The first question I'd love to ask you is what makes you your highest self?

Well, I think that, you know, when I think of high and when we talk about these things, there are lots of names and I think as fullest, whole versus partial versus high low. And I know that's not what you mean when you say higher self, but I think for me it is being authentic and returning to my full humanity. You know, we are as human beings, we are this living paradox. The human is very finite and limited and flawed and the being is infinite, limitless. So we kind of walk around like lightning in a bottle. So one of the things that's very important for me that I've learned over the years and anything that we share, you know, what I'm sharing, are examples, not instructions. I think everyone has this deep wisdom within them and it's being together like this that releases that wisdom that introduces each other to, through real, authentic contact to our own gifts. So one of the things that I always come back to is I don't believe or I haven't experienced myself a state of permanent enlightenment or clarity. I mean, maybe somebody experiences that. I'm not precluding it, but that hasn't been my experience. And so being human, being a spiritual in a body and time on earth, I think we're all challenged to develop and inhabit a very personal practice of return When I fall down, how do I get up? When I am numb, how do I get sensitive? When I am confused, how do I get clear? So we might have some wonderful. I'm sure we will. Conversation in moments here. And then I can get off this and take the garbage out, trip, spill it, swear, forget everything we talked about. And I have to then get up and find my way back. So what are the. For everyone listening, a personal practice is what are the inner and relational tools in your toolbox, personally, that you turn to when you're off center, when you're afraid, how do you find safety? Again, when you're anxious, how do you find calm? And those tools differ for everybody. Some are common, but it's really incumbent on everyone to trial and error, and we can compare. Oh, you do this? Oh, I do that, huh? Maybe I'll try this this time and see what works. Your medieval monks, I love, when asked how they practice their faith, would say, by falling down and getting up. And I love that. I love that.

I love that so much. And, you know, we have these more minor hiccups throughout our day, like falling down and the trash spilling out. And then we have these larger ones that almost feels like if we don't address this deeper thing, this will be an ongoing question that our minds will continue to come back to. And I know for a lot of listeners, it's the sense of purpose, of what is my purpose? Do I have a purpose? So your words really helped me. I was 23 years old in Bali, and I was at the yoga barn in Ubud. And the teacher, her name was Bex, and at the end of the yoga.

Classes, she would read your words from.

I believe it was from Book of Awakening, but also from others. And I have the exact journal that I originally wrote it in almost eight years ago. And at this point in my life, I was very confused if I had a purpose because my family, my mother was a refugee, my dad was an immigrant. So it was very about survival and, like, doing the thing that would keep you safe. But here I was desiring more. So one of the words that you said that I wrote was, no one can live your life but you. All we can do is compare notes. Can you share a little bit more about this?

Yeah. So I think that, you know, it's what I was. And thank you. That's wonderful to hear how that all happened, that every person, every person has their own particular set of gifts. And while the light is the same, you know, like candles, no two candles are the same. But once they're lit, the light is the same. And so we each are on a journey to discover what our gifts are and where to best apply them. So this is a wonderful thing to talk about. Let's really dig into this for a few minutes. And there was a medieval mystic, a female mystic, and I say female because there weren't too many that were acknowledged back then. A German mystic, Mechtilde and Mechthilde said a bird doesn't fall from the sky, a fish doesn't drown in water. Each creature must find their own God given nature. So it's easy for a bird and a fish because their makeup is pretty direct. But as human beings, we are so beautifully, at once simple and complex, like facets to a prism. We can go in so many directions that the first part of the journey is often to discover that element, like what is, like what air is to a bird and what water is to a fish. So for a human being, it's what is the environment that allows our soul to breathe? What is that environment that allows our soul to breathe? And once we start, once we do that, once we kind of find the greenhouse for our soul, then we start to grow. And then when we grow, we can start to see. How is it that we can relate to others, be of use to others? You know, we learn to open our eyes in order to see. If you don't look, once your eyes open, what was the point of opening your eyes? And we learn to open our heart in order to love and care. And if we don't do that, what's the purpose there? And so one of the things that I've come to believe, like our greatest purpose, like the sun, the sun's purpose is to emanate light and warmth in all directions without preference. What a great teacher. And our heart is our sun, our initial purpose. Whenever it gets complicated, I try to come back to the simple. My job is to emanate love and light in all directions without preference. Then when I walk in the day, oh, then it gets complicated. And how do I do that and where do I do that and who do I trust? And those are all the human decisions. But I never lose sight of the fact that I have to emanate from my heart in all directions at once. So two other things about purpose here and gifts, and then maybe a story is that I have come to feel like there's nothing wrong with working for what we want. But in my life repeatedly, I learned that often working for what I want has been an apprenticeship for working with what I'M given. And often it's working with what I'm given, where my deepest gifts show themselves. You know, we all know, like a wooden match, we all know in the tip of that match that. In that phosphorus tip, the light is waiting until you strike it against the surface. Well, that's like our gifts. Our gifts are waiting until their light and warmth won't show themselves. Until we strike our gifts against the needs of the world. And then, boom. And then boom. So here's a story about working with what we're given. And this comes from the 1700s. There was a Japanese monk named Tetsugen, and his call, his purpose. From an early age, he so wanted to translate the talks of Buddha into Japanese. It hadn't been done yet. And so this was his vision. He thought, I'm supposed to do this. He had an artist friend, he said, look, you make these beautiful wood blocks to go along with it, and I'll translate them, and meanwhile, we'll beg alms so we have enough money to publish the holy text. And they excitedly. They were young and they went off to do this. Years went by. After about nine years or so, all of a sudden, in northwest Japan, where Tetsugen was from, there was a flood, like Katrina or Irma, you know, like these massive floods. So he gave all the money away to help the people where he grew up and went out and started all over, kept translating. His artist friend, kept doing the woodblocks. And another nine, 10 years later, in another part of Japan, there was a famine, and Tetsugen's heart had been opened. He said, well, I didn't grow up with these people, but what's the difference? And he gave the money away all again. And after 25 years, he finally published the talks of Buddha in Japanese with the beautiful wood blocks. And today in Kyoto, there is an original edition under glass. And the plaque reads, in his lifetime, Tetsugen published three versions of the holy text. Only one is visible. And so he was able to do both. What he could see was his purpose, but the purpose he couldn't see was the way that he was supposed to translate Buddha's talks was by living them. So we never know. You know, we work for what we can see so that we can discover where we're supposed to give and where we're supposed to help and be of service.

I love that we work with what we can see so we can discover what we can give. And it really allows it to be something so much greater than us. And our excuses become so finite when we realize you know, that that story I have, that limiting belief is holding me back from being of service to humanity. And you know, what a travesty that would be. I feel like so many of us, we face pressures from our family. And you also said this quote, which I have in my journal, to appease her mother, she went back to the river and put her old skin on.

Yeah. Now, this is a very powerful story that also is an anonymous story, and this is worth sharing too. So on the one hand, we're always trying to uncover our true gifts, and on the other hand, we're always trying to make sure that we aren't muffled by false coverings. Doesn't matter how much you learn, how wise you are. We all every day want to uncover and be true and make sure that we're not covered by false things, by noise, by the noise of the mind, by struggles, by wounds, by memories. So this is a story that comes from the New Hebrides. And this was an indigenous story. Early on in the history of the world, in indigenous cultures, it was believed mythically that human beings were immortal. And the way that they could stay immortal was the same way that snakes and crabs shed their skin, that human beings could do this. So this story that that quote comes from is the story of how human beings lost the ability to be immortal. So Ulta Marama was the chiefess of this tribe, and her name means change skin of the world. And one day she noticed in a reflection that, oh, she was getting old again. And she said, oh, it's time to go to the river and change my skin, as she had done many times to stay immortal. And she would look young again, even though her soul was continuing to age and grow wise. So she went to the river, she took off her old skin, and as she started to go back to the village to where her children and her husband and her family were, just as she's leaving the river, she noticed that the old skin caught on a piece of driftwood by the shore. And she didn't think anything of it. So she came back. She's approaching the village, and there's a teenage. Her daughter. Teenage daughter sees her coming and she waves and says, oh, hi. And her daughter doesn't recognize her because she's young. She's as young, looks like her. And her daughter gets anxious and who are you? She says, oh, no, it's me, your mother. I just. I changed my skin. And you'll see, in time, I'll take you to the river and I will show you how. She said, get Away from me. You're not my mother. I want my mother. And she says, no. But you don't understand. Listen, listen. She gets very angry. She's almost revolted. She says, no, leave me alone. I don't want to have anything to do with you. You're not my mother. And Ultimarama, to appease the anxiety and anger of her daughter, goes back to the river and puts her old skin on. And from that day forward, human beings lost the ability to be immortal. Now, who among us hasn't done this? We all do this. We all do this. This is one of the ways that we get covered, that we have to uncover that out of heartache or wanting to please or, you know, wanting meaning to do well, we put on an old way of seeing, feeling, being, thinking, to appease the conflict, the anger, the agitation or fear of a loved one robbing them of their own growth. So does. This doesn't mean that we truly live forever. But what it does mean is that I think when we put on an old, dead way of being, seeing, feeling, thinking, we lose our access to what is eternal. That's the danger. That's the danger. And so the challenge, one of the ways that we need to find courage is to let that loved one deal with their anxiety. It's one thing to. If you're going to the dentist and you're afraid and you're anxious, well, then I try to soothe you. But if you're anxious because of your lack of understanding, your position in the universe, then you. Then I have to support you to withstand that until you can find your center.

Yeah. And I think often people become anxious about who we're becoming. We are changing into someone that they don't recognize or they don't want us to become. And then it's this feeling of, am I meant to be of service right here to this person, to my family, or to this greater calling in my soul that I also know where it's taking me?

Well, and I think that this gets us to the nature of healthy relationship, whether it be partner, friends, family. And that is the fact that nothing in life stands still. We all grow. And so healthy relationship is to allow each other to grow and to keep checking in and saying, you know, like my wife Susan, who's a potter, and she's in her. Her studio out behind our house right now. You know, she and I have been together, I think, 27 years, 28 years. I know her so well, I could finish her sentences, but I don't. Not just because she would be Upset, but because what we're talking about is. My challenge to be a healthy partner is to say, I know you that well, but who are you today? Who are you today to give her the freedom? Maybe you've changed your mind. Maybe you've grown. Maybe you see things differently. And to give that loved one the opportunity to be like Adam and Eve all over again. Yeah, this is how I felt. This is my beliefs. And then you know what? Something happened. And today it's all new, it's all different. Oh, tell me not well, what happened to you? I don't recognize. Like Ultimarama's daughter, I don't recognize you. Go away. This brings us to. And I think that this is something that's very prevalent. It has been throughout history, but it's very prevalent in our age right now and how it's showing itself. And I came to this through the book that I did on More Together than Alone, that so much. And all the traditions speak of. It goes back to the choice between fear and love, which every day we get a chance to make that choice again. And so looking at all the discord today, I tried to understand the history. Where does that come from? And in truth, every generation has its version of it, and it's our turn to be as loving as possible this time. But if we go all the way back, I imagine. I tried to imagine. So let's go all the way back to prehistoric times. Imagine the first two people who discovered they weren't alone. So one person is kind of walking around and they look in the mouth of a cave and there's another person. They go, whoa, who are you? And the one, let's imagine the one in the cave points at his other and says, you're different. Go away. And I think that was the beginning of the Go Away tribe. And depending on how much fear takes over in our being, clouds our soul and heart and that sun, then there are times in history where people who are part of the Go Away tribe say, oh, I don't trust you're going to go away. I'm going to put you where I can watch you. We're going to put you in a refugee camp, in a ghetto, in a reservation, in a detention center. And there's been these horrible times in history when fear has metastasized so deeply that the Go away tribe says, well, I can't even trust you're there. I'm going to make you go away. And we have these horrible periods of genocide, but if we go all the way back to the cave. And the person at the mouth of the cave, he or she sees his other and says, oh, you're different. Come teach me. And that was the beginning of the come teach me tribe. And when that takes precedence in our being, when love leads the way, then we go, oh, thank God you're not me. Teach me all. I don't know. Together, we're more together than alone. Thank God. And when that has stepped forward, we've had the greatest periods of enlightenment in history. But the catch is we belong to both tribes. And I tell you from the bottom of my heart, I am committed to the come teach me tribe. But again, we could get off our talk here and something might frighten me, and all of a sudden I'll switch tribes, and then I need you to remind me. No, no, no, no, no. It's okay. You got frightened. You don't have to make it a way of life. Come back, come back. And right now, in our world, we have a big struggle between these two tribes. But. And then I'll pause, but one more thought here that's so important is in a physical body, we are considered healthy. As long as we have one more healthy cell than toxic. I want a lot more, but as long as I got one, I'm leaning in the right direction. Humanity is like a global body, and every soul is a cell in that body. And when you do the work with your podcast and we have conversations like this, we're all trying to be add to the healthy souls in humanity so that humanity can stay healthy.

Absolutely. And it's so, so needed right now. And it's often a call to further love when we see how much fear and how strong that go away tribe is not strong in numbers, but in the terms of the violence and harm that just one person of that tribe can create and the ripple effects it has on so many people no longer feeling safe. So it's up to us to be even louder our love. And you had this other quote. When we put on a dead way.

Of thinking, we lose access to what is internal.

We can turn it around by opening our heart.

Yeah.

We are always, I think all of.

Us in the practice of opening our heart and life, things happen. And, you know, there is a natural rhythm of opening and closing. As we're talking, our eyes are opening and closing, our lungs are opening and closing. I'm talking with my hands, they're opening and closing. So it's not that we will never be closed, but that our commitment to always open one more time than we close and so going Back to our toolbox of return, our commitment to always. The times we need to open are when we're closed and when we open our heart, that's when we can recognize that we are. Are each other, that we are each other. So, you know, one of the things that. That's very difficult and through this whole last year, everywhere on earth is our rhythms of fear and pain and agitation are so greater because of the pandemic, and so our need to be gentle and patient. And I want to share this is an old Hindu teaching story about pain and fear, how to meet pain and fear. And this story, there's a master and apprentice. There's always a master and apprentice. And the truth is that the master finds the apprentice very annoying because he's constantly complaining, complain, complaining, complain about life, about everything. Nothing's ever right. So the master says to the apprentice, I want you to get a handful of salt, put it in a glass of water, and bring it to me quietly. So the apprentice does. And the master says, drink. And so he sips from the glass and he spits it out. Master said, what's the matter? He said, it's bitter. Master says, I want you to get the same exact amount of salt and follow me quietly. So he gets the same amount of salt, and he follows the master, who leads him to a lake. And he says, put salt in the lake. He does. And the master says, drink. So he kneels down, he drinks, dribbling down his chin. And master says, well. And he says, oh, it's fresh. And the master points at him and says, stop being a glass, become a lake. Stop being a glass, become a lake. This is an anonymous teaching story from India. I remember sharing this at a. I was teaching at a medical school, and there was a resident, a woman who was from. From India. And I remember I told this, and she. She said, my grandmother told me that story when I was a little girl. Just warmed my heart. But the great. The great wisdom in this story that's been passed down for generations and very helpful now is, you know, you might hear this and say, well, okay, I'm never going to be a glass. Well, yes, we will, because we're human. So the key is when we're faced with pain or fear, everybody gets their handful of salt. Some of us get it all at once. Some of us get it a grain at a time. Nobody gets through this life without getting your hand full of salt. So when faced with pain or fear, the only thing we can do is enlarge our sense of things. Stop being A glass become a lake. How do we do that? That's the toolbox. You know, maybe it's I call you up and we talk. Maybe I listen to music that opens my heart. Maybe I draw, maybe I journal, maybe I garden. Maybe I go out and do something for someone I love or for a stranger. But I start to learn what are the givings that enlarge my sense of thing. Because it's not by accident that kindness and kinship have the same root word. So one of the rewards, when we are kind, our relationship deepens. But I get access to oneness and to the universe for being kind. So how do we. We will never eliminate pain and fear, but we can right size it when we not make ourselves bigger, but enlarge our sense of things. So when I, you know, from my writing, I. Many, many years ago, over 30 years ago now, but I almost died from a rare form of lymphoma. And I experienced. Oh, my God, I was terrified at everything. I'd never been through anything really serious, so I was afraid of everything. And one of the great learnings was that, you know, I had to be true to my experience but also realize that life was still going on around me. And when I could do that, that enlarged my sense of things. And it. It kind of calm. It didn't eliminate my fear, but it calmed me down. You know, I had a moment where I really learned this when I had had a terrible first chemo treatment and I was outside of New York City getting very sick in a Holiday Inn with loved ones not sure when to go to the emergency room. And two weeks earlier, I had had a rib removed from my back through surgery. So I was terrified. I didn't know what was going to happen next. I was in pain. And finally, you know, it was getting toward. Like dawn was coming. It was early 4 or 5 in the morning. And we did eventually go to the emergency room, but as I was on the floor with my hands on my knees, exhausted as the sun came up, I think because I was exhausted, not through wisdom on my part, I couldn't keep the rest of life out. And so all of a sudden I realized this is true for me, but somewhere nearby, a baby's being born. Somewhere nearby, a couple are making love for the first time. Somewhere, an estranged parent and child are sitting down and talking for the first time in years. And so it doesn't, you know, a lot of times we play sea saw with that. Like, oh, well, if that's happening, then what I'm going through is insignificant or more often we tend to make what we're going through the whole world. And what I learned is to be broken is no reason to see all things as broken. And in fact, while I need when I'm afraid, I need the company of those who know what it means to be afraid. But I need everything safe to heal. When I'm broken, I need the company of someone who knows what it's like to be broken. But I need everything not broken to heal. And this has been a big, big teacher for me.

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You can also find that link in the show. Notes, Notes. I love that so much. And I heard someone once say, it's not that the situation is stressful, it's that you are stressful. And you know, sometimes I catch myself if I am in a stressful mood, everything is stressful and overwhelming and I am a very, very small cup in that moment. And then in other times that you zoom out and you become that lake. Those very same situations, they don't stifle you. I think what we often struggle with is to know when am I supposed to feel my feelings and be with the experience and let myself go into the tears and the fear and not bypass this moment I'm in versus when that's enough and when do we find our way to that other side?

Yeah, and I think this is a very human, ongoing practice is, I believe, in the life of feelings. Feelings is how the spirit, how we become intimate with spirit and life here on earth. And we're taught a lot of the time to be afraid of feelings. And I think in doing that, we don't stay with feelings enough so that they can be teachers. So, like, you all know, like if you have a hose, a garden hose, and it's tangled or kinked, then when you open it, there's a lot of pressure. But if it's, you know, if it's all not kinked and it's untangled and then you open it, it flows. And that's a lot like the life of feeling. If I don't, if I'm all tangled and I run away from feeling, well, then when I first feel there's going to be a lot of pressure, like in that hose.

And what we tend to do is go, oh boy, that's.

If it's going to be like that all the time, forget it. When we need to allow that pressure to release until we find what's the natural flow. Oh, oh, this isn't so bad. And in fact, this is not only not so bad, this is helpful and this is helpful. So I think, you know, one of.

The things Rilke who was the great.

German poet Reina Maria Rilke. He had an insight where he said, let everything happen. Beauty and terror. No one feeling is final.

Keep going.

You know, because we're so sensitive, we.

Can in a moment become the feeling.

That'S moving through us, but we're not. And our challenge is not to drown in our feelings, to let our feelings live in us and not we in our feelings, you know, so. And let's go back to fear. Fear. We can't get rid of fear. The legitimate purpose of fear is to alert us to legitimate danger. I touch the stove and I burn myself. But what do we do? What we tend to do then is I go, oh, well, I know if I get close to that stove, I start to feel afraid again.

And then I say to myself, well.

To be sure, I'm going to add an extra foot. And if I come within that, I'll start to feel afraid.

That's not real. That's inaccurate. And now we treat that ring of fear as if it's legitimate when the actual. It's only a few inches from the stove that I need to be concerned about. And we do this with love, we do this with relationships, and we're always challenged. So to use the stove analogy again, so I can burn myself on the stove and I can better learn how to use the stove, or I can make this a. Stoves are bad. You don't want to mess with stoves. And if I never deal with it, then I have children. And now I'm telling children stoves are evil. You'll see, you'll learn. Now just replace that with love. Relationships. I get burned by love. I can better learn. It's not love that's the problem. It's my humanness and the patterns of relationship that we need to learn better. But I can tell myself, well, no, you can't trust love. You'll learn. Watch. It'll happen to you. And now we're in the go away, go away tribe versus oh, come teach me. I got burned. But it's not a condition of all love. How do I learn from this experience?

So beautifully said. And I think it also relates to many people who've maybe tried to live their purpose, and they tried one attempt and maybe a second attempt, and it didn't work out. So don't follow your purpose. It's a bunch of hocus pocus. It's never really going to happen. And it becomes this. This fear of failure. And then we have the proof and evidence of all of the people around us who are also living lives that they're not fully satisfied with. But we think, you know, life's tough, get a helmet. That's just what it should be like. And I should get used to.

The true purpose I believe that the soul has on earth is for us to be as alive as possible. And I don't think that the soul or spirit cares how we do that. In the same way that a fire. You put wood on a fire, the fire doesn't care whether you put pine or oak or elm on it. It'll take any wood you put on it. And I believe that the soul, like the wood, for the soul, is care. The soul. If we put care onto the fire of the soul, the soul will shine bright. And it doesn't matter what kind of what you care for, as long as you care. And therefore, I feel, I say often that our soul's awakening is our career. Where that happens is our occupation. That can change. You know, I have a. I mean, I've been blessed to be, you know, a writer and a teacher my whole adult conscious life. And what I explore changes. And I have a dear friend, dear friend who helped me. He was in that Holiday inn with me 30 some more years ago. And he has always been. Well, he's done different things to pay the rent and make a living. I can remember, you know, when we were in our late 20s, he had this urge to create an art gallery. He wasn't an artist himself, but he wanted to create, and he created an art gallery. We lived in Albany, New York at the time. And for 10 years he devoted it. It was amazing. And then it was successful. It wasn't that it wasn't successful, but what was feeding his heart changed. And he said, well, I'm going to sell the art gallery because I need to follow something else. And all the while he was doing something else, always doing something else to pay bills. And then he got into sumi painting, Japanese sumi painting. And then years later, he decided that he apprenticed at being a foreign car mechanic. And I've always admired my dear friend Paul because he followed whatever illuminated his heart and then that would unfold. And sometimes I think this is one of the things that in our modern age is sometimes what we need to do to survive, to pay the rent, and what we need to do to thrive, to ignite our soul. Sometimes they're the same thing. I'm blessed at this time of my life it's the same thing, and at other times it's not. And that doesn't mean we're a failure. These are the rhythms of life. Because we all have to survive and thrive, everyone. And we have to find for now. And we all have to discover what combination lets our soul awake and keeps our feet on the ground. Everyone who's ever lived has to do this. But we have been taught so strongly that we are what we do. That if we don't get to do what we love 100% of the time, we're a failure. When what we get to do to survive often teaches us how to better do what we love. And I think so. There's an openness. So here's a small story about purpose. There's a cyclist, a professional cyclist, like Lance Armstrong, kind of cyclist. He's preparing for a race like the Tour de France, and he's serious. He has all the state of the art equipment. He shaves all the hair off his body so there's no resistance. And finally, the day of the race comes and the first day is through the hills and they're off. And he is, after about a few hours, he is so far ahead that as he comes over a hill, briefly, for seconds upon seconds, as he's coasting down the hill, you can't see the other racers. And as he's coming down the hill, coasting out of nowhere, a great blue heron with its wings spread swoops down over his handlebars. He's stunned. It literally stops him. He stops and straddles his bike because the Heron had opened something he'd been chasing. The other racers are catching up. He's straddling his bike, stunned at what all just happened. And now we cut to years later, and he's standing on his back porch looking into the woods behind his home. And once in a while, if you ask him what cost you the race, once in a while he'll say, I didn't lose the race, I left it. Now, we could say, someone could say, well, that's all very poetic and nice, but he did lose the race. He didn't come in first. And now I hold the teaching of that story differently. I think he trained to meet the Heron, but if you told him he was training to meet the Heron, he never would have trained. He would have said, that's crazy. The Heron changed his life. So we trained for what we're back to. We can train for what we can see because it will often lead us to what we can't see.

Those very things that we are seeking, I believe, are fueled from this deeper desire that, exactly as you said, we're not Even aware of. And sometimes as humans, we can be so goal focused of I just need to write this book or get this job or whatever the thing is. But the deeper reasoning behind it was so much different than our conscious mind could have ever comprehended. How do you advise people who maybe do have this desire right now to live a life of purpose, but they're not really sure what that passion is for them. They don't know where to direct their energy. They're not even on a specific race. So they sort of feel like, should I wait until something, a heron hits me and then follow that direction or should I start going different directions?

My feeling is to start very specific and right where you are. You know, Mother Teresa has talked about courage, being, doing small things with love and to treat. And you know, Gandhi, he named his autobiography My Experiments with Truth. And so I think each of us, I would encourage each of those people who are with us or listening is to use your own life as the teaching tool, as the case study. I would invite you to start a journal so that you can track what you're learning. And then I would invite you to ask yourself every day as you are doing things and meeting people and learning things and trying things, to ask this question, Is this heartening or is this disheartening? If it's disheartening, stop doing it. If it's heartening, keep doing it. It and journal about what you learn when your heart comes alive. And the more you do that, the lessons, your heart will start to be your teacher and will lead you to what is heartening. And then it will become clear where you can strike the gifts, your gifts, like a match against the needs of the world. You know, there's an old story, but I'll modernize it here, A parable about a young person who wants to good heart, wants to be a philanthropist. But they don't have any money, so they want to work for a foundation so they can help people. And so they do all this stuff and they got the resume and they get an interview. And on the way to the first interview, he's going there, he or she, this old woman falls in front of him. Her groceries fall all over the parking lot, and she scraped up her knee. He of course, helps her. And she's not seriously hurt, but she's, you know, scraped up and bleeding. And so he takes her to urgent care. He misses his interview, so he reschedules the interview. And the next time the interview, he's on the way. And all of a sudden, before he goes into the building, this young like 6, 7 year old girl is chasing a loose dog. The dog's running out in traffic. The girl started running out of traffic. He stops, he goes to help and he misses the second interview. By this time, the foundation, they think he's a slacker, so they don't give him any more interviews. And all the time he thinks he's a failure. And all of his dreams of being a philanthropist are interrupted by all the opportunities for him to do good deeds. He's already a philanthropist. So when we can follow what is heartening, what our dreams and what we want often take shapes. We didn't imagine they show up in ways to be open, that they don't just show up in the way we first looked for them. Because the truth is, and I felt that, I felt this in my life, that often our dreams don't come true, they change or they, you know, they unfold differently. But when we give our all to what our dreams are, sometimes we come true. And that's more important.

That story hits so close to home because I literally went to school in D.C. to study international human rights law. You know, always wanting to be the person who saves the world and the philanthropist. And then I suffered from really bad health issues which caused me to have to redirect of how can I heal the world when I first need to heal myself and then brought me on this journey. So I really resonate with that. And I know so many of us, we want to be of service and there's so many calls for being of service to humanity. And it's that constant dance of being of service where you are right now. And also not forgetting all of the people who we aren't seeing who could also use our help. And you know, even just your story, it reminded me me of that essence that I had going to college to save the world and to also not lose touch with that side of it either, of having both parts of you be alive. The micro and the macro.

Yeah. And I think that we cast ahead of us our dreams and plans. And at least I have found that's only helpful so that as I start to live them, I'm open to how life will then teach me what's next. Too often we're taught, which is really kind of an infantile definition. But if I get what I want, that's success. And if I don't, that's failure. And if I follow what's touching me and what I want, it will lead me like the cyclist to the heron, it'll lead me to discover things I couldn't have imagined.

And I think that's so important because right now, you know, manifestation is such a buzzword in the spiritual community, especially in the social media space. And it's really so focused on, I want to make this much money or get this accolade or this, this often material possession or partner or whatever else it is. And if I can manifest that thing, that will be the thing that shows my spiritual abilities back to me. And it's really more opening up your heart to, as you say, allow that journey to guide you versus basing your success based off of, you know, in fact, how miserable would our lives be if we, if all of our goals actually happened? You know, we were limited to only those things. We wouldn't, we wouldn't have even been aware of so many of the beautiful mysteries of our lives that have unfolded and will continue to.

Well, and as frustrating as it is, what's in the way is the way. That's how we grow. That's how we are taught and how life teaches us.

Do you think that we could ever live a life that's fully easy?

No, no, no Struggle. And this is why we have to love the engagement of life, because struggle is always a part of it. Struggle isn't a bad thing. You know, I think effort is a wonderful thing. I believe in effort and grace, but I always put in effort because I never know when grace will show up. And sometimes I think that effort is grace in slow motion, you know, that it does take time. We worked. I've worked years on books and only to be surprised at how things unfolded, that if I hadn't been patient, I never would have discovered. Never. Never.

So beautifully said. And I think it's such a great reminder for us in, you know, this digital space where things are so fast and if you're not, you know, putting out content all the time and growing and escalating, then you're falling behind. And to allow ourselves to be patient with the process.

Well, I think yes. And I really want to offer this to all young people, which is always, it's always a challenge, is that especially in our age, that things are instantaneous with all this media and everything, and things are recordable and replayable and one of the age old truths, that's like a law of spirit, like a law of physics, like gravity, is that things that matter still take time. Things that matter take time. And that if we rush prematurely, we will miss the teaching. So I wouldn't want to give up all these tools, but the Tools are not a worldview. They're just tools.

Such a beautiful reminder. Yes.

The speed with which things happen is not a way of life. It's just a tool.

Absolutely. And to. Yeah, so many of the greatest, like the Charles Darwin's theory, took him 30 years to write. You know, time we would be like, 30 years. You're a failure. You haven't posted on Instagram in four days. You know, and we wouldn't have allowed such of, you know, the greatest insights to occur. So if anyone's listening to this and is putting a lot of pressure on themselves of why don't I know my purpose yet? Why is everyone else thriving and I'm behind and maybe this lifetime just isn't it for me to be patient with that, you know?

And the other thing that I would share is that which is so humbling and amazing about all creativity, I feel, is that when we devote ourselves to any engagement, regardless of what we create, we are being created by that engagement. Our life is the work of art. That life itself is shaping. And we don't get shaped until we show up, until we show up. John Ruskin, who was in the 1700s, he was an English critic and a watercolor painter. And he said this beautiful thing. He said, the toil, a person's toil, the reward is not what they get for it, but what they become by it.

So patience in the process of creativity, not I'm going to sit here and keep scrolling on social media and hoping something's just going to hit me, though that may happen. Some people have those complete redirects. But to be patient in the process of writing, of dancing, of painting, of.

Contemplating, and this goes back to paying attention to what is heartening for you. Because then when you start to become more intimate with your own nature and you know what brings you alive, not only will that lead you to your purpose, but it will also help you. In those moments when we started with in the Toolbox, when you're thrown off and you're hurt and you're afraid and you're anxious, then you can turn to what is heartening, to enlarge your sense of things to right size. The pain and fear and agitation that no one can avoid.

Such a beautiful reminder. Well, thank you so much for all of your wisdom and your eloquent words and for being a living reflection of living your dharma. Can you share with listeners how they can get your books?

Yeah, sure. Thank you. What's a joy to be in this conversation together? So My website is marknepo.com, but my books are there and they were on Amazon. They're everywhere.

Beautiful. I will have that link in the show Notes. Well, thank you again so much for your wisdom. We are so grateful for you.

Oh, well, thank you. A joy to be with you. Thank you.

Mm. How incredible was that conversation? Let's just breathe it all in together for a second. Inhale in and exhale out, receiving in all those codes, the transmission, the inquiry, the awareness, the awakening. Sometimes we can be so quick. After we listen to a podcast or listen to an audiobook, we go on and we do the next thing. So I invite you to just take a moment right now to just jot down any notes, any ideas that showed up for you. Just take a moment to reflect on that conversation. Maybe you go back, you listen to some parts because there were a lot of juicy nuggets in there. And if we really spend a lifetime just really contemplating what we already know, but applying it, embodying it, we will get so much further than just acquiring and acquiring and acquiring more information. We don't need more information. We need more embodiment. I also think it's so powerful to learn from elders. It's something that I, on the podcast, have really been more mindful of. I am always looking for elders to have on, and we have a lot more elders to come. And to me, it's so important to learn from people who've walked through paths of lives that we have not yet, because we may be able to relate on a certain level. Maybe you're also a millennial or in another generation, but I also love to learn from people who've grown up in a completely different time without this technology, without the comparison and the social media, and who've really gone through life and are now in the crone phase because there's so much wisdom there. So thank you so much to Mark Nepo for being on the episode and thank you so much to our podcast sponsors. If you want to dive de deeper into spirituality with me and many experts, come join me in my membership community, Rose Gold Goddesses. You can head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com to learn more information. The doors are going to be opening back up in August, and we're only going to be opening two times a year moving forward. So this is your chance in August to join. You can head over to the website, join the waitlist so you will be emailed as soon as we open the doors. Thank you so much for being here today. Day Namaste.