410: The Subtle Ways You May Be A People Pleaser with Hailey MaGee

Namaste, it's Sahara Rose. And welcome back to the Highest Self podcast, A place to discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. I am so excited to share this episode with you today because it was one that I deeply needed to listen to. And we really got to go deep into so many spaces, specifics like questions, real life experiences where people pleasing may show up. So to be honest, I never considered myself to be a people pleaser my entire life. I could definitely identify it in other people, but I always felt like I was someone that had strong boundaries, like I'm a Capricorn. I, I speak my truth. However, I found myself in situations where I avoided conflict because I wanted to keep it chill. I like to keep it easy. I don't want any drama. And I realized that some of those tendencies I had were actually covert people pleaser tendencies in disguise. And that so many of us intuitive people, we are hypersensitive, we're empaths. And really this comes from our hyper attunement to how other people feel, which makes it so when someone else is upset, maybe it's your spouse or a friend, it's almost like you need to, to make them feel better because you're not gonna feel better until they feel better. So I started to notice I have these patterns within myself and that's how I came across Haley's Instagram, which some of you may follow. It's incredible. I'll link it in the show notes. So in this episode we really dive into all of the subtle ways that people pleasing may be showing up in your life, especially as a conscious individual. So maybe you're the therapist for all of your friends. You let people speak and speak and speak without ever sharing your perspective or having it be more of a conversation rather than, you know, you just holding space for other people. Maybe you're avoiding hard conversations or you feel drained after hanging out with people. Maybe you feel the need to fix everyone's problems or you feel overly responsible for people. These are all signs that you may have some people pleaser tendencies in you.

I don't like to label someone as.

A people pleaser because it's not a label, it's not an identity. It's something that can change. And we get to take responsibility for the parts of ourselves that may have felt like we are more safe when we attune to other people's needs before our own and to bring about healing because that's the only way we can truly become sovereign. So this is really an eye opening conversation. I asked so many specific questions about situations and what we can do, so it's really, really practical. And I'm so excited that Haley is going to be teaching a workshop in Dharma Coaching Institute all about getting guilt and how we can avoid and drop guilt, especially as coaches who do feel this desire to help other people and to not hold all of the responsibility for other people's transformations because we can't do that for other people. We can hold them at their highest light, but really the action needs to come from within. So without further ado, let's welcome Hailey McGee to the highest Self podcast. And before we get started, I am so excited to announce that doors are opening back up for Rose Gold Goddess's M Divine Feminine Mystery School. This is beyond a mystery school, but this is a community where we gather every single month to dive deep into different spiritual workshops, including some of your favorite Highest Self podcast guests, including Shaman, Excel, B.B. cassandra Bodzak, Amber Valdez, and so many others sharing their potent wisdom with you in a closed container that really transforms you from the mind, body and spirit level. And I'm beyond excited to announce that we are planning an in person weekend retreat here in Miami exclusively for our Rose Gold Goddesses members. So if you love the podcast and you wish you could connect with people who also listen to it and dive even deeper into the different wisdom and practices that you learn here and actually integrate them into your life. Well, if you're feeling the call, then Rose Gold Goddesses is for you. Head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com that link is in my show notes to join our wait list for when doors open back up just for one week this channel January. And this is your only chance to join. So make your new year a year of ease, flow, joy, expression, intuition and creativity and channel your Highest self with a community of aligned queens and Rose Gold Goddesses. Again, head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com to join our wait list and I'm so excited to see you inside and hopefully meet you at our in person retreat in Miami. Welcome Hayley, to the Highest Self podcast. It's so great to have you here.

Hi, thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

The first question I would love to ask you is what makes you your highest self?

Oh, that's juicy. What makes me my highest self? I think I'm able to be my highest self when I'm coming from a place of just non judgment and open acceptance of not only others but myself to kind of trusting the process, the peaks and the valleys and trusting that it's all just meant to be the way it is. That is something I struggle with, but I'm actively working on every day.

I love that. And I think it's so important to remember that you're your highest self, even when you're like, learning new and maybe challenging aspects about yourself. And you're like, what's wrong with me? How did I not realize this? And like, to continue to have that compassion for yourself. And that's why I'm so excited to chat with you today Day. All about people pleasing and codependency, but really, like, the more covert ways that this can show up in our lives. Because I just shared with you how I never considered myself to be a people pleaser ever. Like, I could spot in other people, but for me, I'm like, no, I speak my truth. I'm independent. I'm an empowered woman. And then I came across your Instagram and I started to read all these different things. And I always knew I was hypersensitive, even an empath, and intuitive. And a lot of listeners of the podcast, they feel the same way. They, since the time they were a kid, they could feel into what everyone in the room was feeling. And in my own journey, I've realized that, like, yes, part of this is my gift of, like, I'm an intuitive and I channel and I'm able to share messages for the collective. And I had a father growing up that was really angry, so I needed to attune to how the room was feeling. And that's also why, for me, if I could feel that there's something off, it's like I feel it in my own body. And that is actually how people pleasing and codependency can show up. Like, for example, if my husband is like, kind of upset, I'm like, what's wrong?

Are you sure?

Are you sure everything's okay? And it's like, that's the people pleasing. So can you share some of the more covert ways that people pleasing can show up, especially for spiritual people?

Yeah. Well, I love that you led with that because I really do think it's a yes. And, like, we can find the origins of people pleasing in our past, and we can acknowledge that in many ways it's a superpower for our present selves. Because so many of us do identify as empaths or hsps and really have almost this hyper vigilance towards other people's emotions or experiences and, you know, blessing and a curse, right? Because at times it makes us very aware and very attuned. And at times we are so vigilant to others emotions that we kind of forget our own in the process. And I think that's where people pleasing can come up in a way that could be a little more self destructive. I think some of the COVID ways, you know, for me, I think of people pleasing, you know, if you're a generous person, you're not necessarily a people pleaser. If you love to give, you're not necessarily a people pleaser. For me, that language, you know, we really enter people pleasing when we start giving and caring for others at the expense of ourselves or begin sacrificing in the process. And I think especially for those of us who are interested in spiritual work, this can be a tough middle line to walk because so much of spiritual work is about being of service and helping other people and helping others actualize themselves. And it's really important to look within and ask ourselves the question, is my cup full? Am I doing this out of a sense of genuine caring and enthusiasm and inspiration, or am I doing this because this is how I get a source of worth and value and. And without this giving, who would I be? So all these ways people pleasing can just kind of show up for us in ways that eventually force us to like sacrifice or neglect ourselves. And that's how, you know, something's a little off.

So true. So you said on your Instagram, recovering people pleasers have a tendency to try to change people who can't or won't meet their needs into people who will meet their needs instead of taking others willingness at face value and prioritizing more reciprocal relationships. Can you share more about this?

Yes. So I think a really good example of this, right is I have been there. I'm sure many of the listeners have been there. Let's imagine we're in a relationship with. This could be platonic or romantic, but a person who seems to require more distance or space than we want, or someone who is maybe a little bit less affectionate than we would want or a little bit less emotionally available than we would want, instead of in the moment saying, hmm, it seems like there's a fundamental mismatch between what my needs are and what this person can give, which others would do. It's common for us to almost think that we can control or change the other person into meeting our needs. And ways we might do this include having the same argument 18, 19 times, hoping we'll change the person's mind so that they do care for us and give us greater affection or we will try to shape shift ourselves and try to become a version of ourselves that this other person could magically love more or be more available for. Like, there's this tendency in us to not necessarily take the other person limitations at all at face value, but rather to try to shift the situation to meet our needs. And one of the ways we do that is just by not setting clear boundaries around what we need and who we are.

I love that so much. And you know, I caught myself different times, especially in friendships. Like, I would notice something about someone and think, oh, well, that's okay. Like, no one's perfect. So like, I shouldn't judge that. And then I would notice that thing again and again. Like, for example, let's say someone would like always talk shit about people. I would be like, you know, maybe that's just their way of processing things, but like, they're never going to do it to me until that thing comes around to you. And I think sometimes people pleasers, like, maybe we want to see the best in people and we have that strong knowing that everyone has their shadows, everyone has, you know, their things. That may not be as appeasing, but I guess the difference is we keep holding on, like thinking that somehow it's not going to affect us when it is.

Yeah, like, exactly. We keep holding on, trying to change them or change ourselves to make it work. When sometimes I think this is so important, like what you just said. Sometimes there's just a fundamental mismatch and there doesn't need to be blame in that. We don't need to say they're too much or I am too little or they're too little. It can really just be a question of we're two puzzle pieces and the edges aren't lining up and there doesn't need to be blame in that. It's just something not really working. And I think a lot of us question ourselves for being like, oh, I'm just being too sensitive or I'm being too demanding. Instead of just kind of letting those needs or even sensitivities just be what they are and like, honor them. That's the highest self thing for me too is, is trusting my own intuition and saying, oh, I'm sensing I have a sensitivity to this. Why don't I honor it instead of judging or shaming myself for being too sensitive, which is a phrase I really don't love.

Mm, so true. And I, and I feel like when I. Like, for example, I had this friendship breakup that happened and there was a fundamental mismatch, but for so long, like, I just didn't maybe want to look at it. And then when I started to, like, look back at, okay, where were the little pieces of the puzzle that I wasn't paying attention? I realized that I prided myself in being so chill, so easygoing. I'm someone that goes with the flow. I don't rock the boat. And I had this coach, and he's like, why don't you, like, call out behavior that's not serving you? I'm like, I don't want to be one of those people. Like, those people are so demanding. And my desire to be chill is what allowed me to be in a friendship for so long that was not actually seeing me and honoring who I was.

Oh, my God, yes. And so many of us have had that exact experience. I know I have. You know, and something that's common. I don't know if this resonates with you, but a lot of folks who are people pleasers have a tendency to cut people out because we may, well, like, over time, we may have neglected those little voices saying, I don't love that, and I don't love that. And so instead of having a vulnerable and slightly awkward conversation about our needs or our limits, it feels easier to just be like, oh, I'm done with this friendship and disappear. I've done that. Yeah, we do. It's like, oh, man. So it's kind of interesting how, like, you reframe it. It's like, oh, by having this tough conversation about my boundaries or whatever, I'm actually potentially allowing this connection to be sustainable instead of just waiting until it's intolerable and leaving it behind.

Why is it that for some people have people pleasing tendencies? It's so hard to have those uncomfortable conversations. It's almost like we want the person to change, but we want them to realize it on their own. Like, how does this come to be?

Isn't that wild? It's the classic thing, like, I shouldn't have to tell them. They should just know. You know, there's this major expectation of mind reading. And I think there's a couple things, like, so many of us are highly attuned and hyper vigilant to others moods and needs. And that may be because we're intuitive or an empath. It could be because we have trauma in our past or have learned that as a coping mechanism. Regardless, we sometimes expect others to have a similar degree of hyper vigilance to us just because we have it to them, which is really kind of an unrealistic expectation of a lot of people. Sometimes we just need to say what our needs are in order for those to be met effectively. And that's scary for us, I think a lot of us. The second piece too, I'm not, I don't know about you, but I know a big one for me is there was always this fear of almost like abandonment because somewhere along the way I learned that I was loved and seen as valuable when I was putting others first. Especially in childhood. Right. If I was the chill one, like you said, the go with the flow, that's how I got love. And so to have this fundamental reframe and say, whoa, I'm going to start speaking my needs now and setting boundaries, am I going to lose what makes me lovable? Will people leave? I think that's a really deeply embedded, sometimes not even quite conscious concern we have.

So true. Because if we spoke out our needs and that person cannot meet them, then we're faced with a decision of potentially not being in the relationship. And for some of us, that's just too hard to even think about. So we're like, I'd rather not know if this person could meet my needs because at least I could maintain this relationship, then speak it and potentially be rejected and then have to do what comes next.

Exactly. It's like you said, it's a fear that we don't even want to face it sometimes because it's so scary.

So you spoke about these stages of grief that come when you realize that you may have people pleasing traits. What are some of these stages?

Oh, that's really interesting. Right. So, yeah, so like the stages of grief model, which is typically applied to grief and loss of like, you know, relationships and people, I realized it could really be also applied to realizing you're a people pleaser. You know, first there's denial, kind of like what you had alluded to earlier. Like, I'm not a people pleaser. I'm just so giving and like so chill and so friendly. Many of us don't see that as a difficult thing. It's like, oh, that's just who I am. But then we realize that we have shrunken. We've shrunk ourselves down to be more palatable or acceptable to other people. And there's all these shadows and sides of us and needs of ours that just haven't seen the light of day that are just as much us as the go with the flow chill sides. And then I think I forget the stage is all in order, but sometimes there's also anger, which is really interesting, because I think for a lot of us, if we've spent years and years shrinking ourselves to be more lovable to others, when we finally start reclaiming our voices and speaking up in those hard moments and speaking our needs, there's this tendency I notice in my clients and folks I work with to be really angry for all the times that they didn't speak up for themselves and all the people in their lives that allowed them to do that. So in other words, like, people who really seemed to benefit from our people pleasing a lot of us get really furious with them. Like, you encouraged me to be small. You don't want my truth. You just want this version of me that's not really me. And there's something almost like sacred or holy about that anger that arises in us when we start breaking this pattern. It's kind of like this inner self saying, I deserved better and now I'm not settling for less. But it can be really uncomfortable. Have you ever experienced something like that? Like that anger or kind of just like retroactive feeling?

Totally. After I had this friendship breakup, it was like, yeah, definitely a lot of anger that showed up of anger at them, of like, why don't they care what I think? Why don't they listen? Why weren't they able to hold space? But also anger with myself. Of like, yeah, why did I allow myself to be in this friendship where I knew I couldn't speak my full truth for so many years, but for some reason, like, turned a blind spot? And then that made me look at my relationship with my parents as a child. And oftentimes, especially if you have a narcissistic parent as well, I think you tend to go into that more codependent people pleasing space because you're so, again, hyper vigilant to what they're feeling. So it was beautiful because we were able to navigate it and have, like, a conscious uncoupling, like, as friends, which was very healing to have. And now I'm just in total clarity of, like, I'm so glad that that situation happened. Otherwise we wouldn't have gone different paths. So every single stage of grief really led to this deep clarity and knowing that the moment that I feel that I'm not being honored or seen in a relationship, I'm going to try to speak it then rather than let years and years add up. And, yeah, and I think for a lot of people, too, what they struggle with in setting boundaries is the guilt that might happen after of, well, what if that person doesn't like it? And then I feel guilty and I feel bad, and that's going to weigh on me. So it's easier for me to just go with the flow or do the thing than to set the boundary and feel guilty. So can you speak a bit about this as well?

Yeah. Guilt. We fear guilt. I feel like, and this is something I talk about a lot because I think you can read all the books and all the Instagram posts about the process of boundary setting, but an often overly factor is exactly what you're talking about. Like how to get through the guilt that follows. And something I like to. The way I look at this is like, if we've been people pleasers for a long time and we're working on breaking these patterns, guilt is inevitable. I like to reframe the guilt instead of seeing it as a sign that you've done something wrong, which is typically how we think of guilt. In our case, it's almost like that guilt is a growing pain. It's a sign that we're doing something new and unfamiliar and speaking up for that inner self who has gone neglected for so long. And like, I think if our intention is to never feel guilt again, I really think we're setting ourselves up for failure. I think that a better way of looking at it is how can I become resilient towards guilt so that I can feel it, move through it and soothe through it, and then come out the other side feeling okay. Because, I mean, let's face it, right? If we've spent decades defining ourselves by what we give to others, feeling guilt when we stop doing that is somewhat inevitable. But we don't have to let it control our choices and actions. And there are a lot of ways we can kind of build up that resiliency so that guilt doesn't feel like such a formidable opponent.

Totally. And I think for me, what helped was sometimes flipping it of like, let's say someone's like, hey, can you mow my lawn tomorrow? I don't know, some random request. And let's say I'm starting to feel guilty of like, oh, well, you know, this person really needs me. They're not going to be there. Their grass might get really long tomorrow. Then I flip it of like, would they come over tomorrow to mow my lawn? Like, probably not. And I started to realize how many things I would do for other people completely knowing that that person wouldn't do it for me. And I also help my friends as well because I think a lot of us are like, are hyper sensitive, which can go into people pleasing. But Oftentimes I like, remind my friends as well, when they're faced with an obligation or request to be like, do you think that that person would do it for you? And most of the time the answer is no.

Yeah. What a wild way to kind of get a really clear look at the disparity in giving. And another flip flop that I really like too, in addition to the one you just shared, is especially when we're setting boundaries with people really close to us. So like, family, partners, friends, it can be helpful if we're like, hedging on having that hard conversation because we're afraid of the guilt that will follow. It's really helpful to think, like, if a friend was bothered with me, would I rather they didn't tell me and just like, vented about it to our mutual friends? Or like, with a partner, like, if a partner was feeling dissatisfied, would I want them to just suck it up and stay with me because they were too afraid of breaking my heart? Like, typically, the answer is no. Like, we want that type of honesty and transparency from those we love. Even though we know it would be hard, we want it like, we want that. We want them to honor us in those ways. And I think that's a really cool way of looking at boundaries is like, yeah, it's hard, but like, at least for honoring another person's autonomy and the truth of what's there by setting them totally.

And the beauty of that is it's like different people have different friendship styles. So if you see your friendship style does not match someone else's, you know, what beautiful clarity to get right then. And on. Some people, they require more processing. Some people, it's more independent, different, you know, and different friendships have different dynamics. So, you know, a question that I have for you is let's say you make a. A friend and maybe there is something about them that's like, annoying to you. Let's say they just talk a lot for a really, really long time. Every time you see them, they're just talking and talking and talking and you kind of leave feeling exhausted. Do you think it's worth mentioning it to this friend? If you're not very good friends, but it's almost like making you not want to see them. It's not that you dislike them, but you do feel drained, which is a common theme among the people pleasers.

Yeah, I'm hearing you talk and I'm like, have you been spying on my friendships? How of us? I feel like this is like the thing, right? We always end up. We're Great listeners. And so all of a sudden we befriend all these folks who are lovely humans but just take up all the airtime. This is very relevant for me this year too. And I think before we determine, should I bring this up, my question is, what's the. I'm a coach, so I'm like, what's the ideal future you want? What's your ideal scenario? Is the ideal that you eventually develop a sustainable connection with this person over time? Is it worth it to you? Because if so, then absolutely. You know, even if they're not a best friend, let's say they're the type of friend you grab coffee with every month or two. Even still, I do think that conversation is valuable a just for yourself, like learning how to exercise that muscle of being honest. Practice is wonderful, but then also it doesn't need to be like a big, scary, like, you messed up conversation. One of my favorite ways I've actually had this conversation with friends in my life, and the way I've brought it up to the table has been like, hey, something I'm working on is taking up more space in conversations because I tend to slip into that natural listening role. And so I was wondering if you would help me by maybe asking me more questions about myself or getting more curious about me when we talk. A framing like that allows it to be kind of like teamwork esque, instead of just pointing the finger, being like, you talk too much. And that can really help.

My people pleaser is afraid to even make that request.

I don't say that.

I think we're so afraid of it seeming like it's all about us. That like, like, how would you like for someone who is wanting to have a more dynamic conversation with friends, but they're afraid of saying, I want you to ask me more questions, and they just would never want to come off as a narcissist. I think that's like a people pleaser's greatest fear. So how can we work through that?

That's really interesting because. Right. I think that's something. When we're. When we speak up for our needs, we do worry about sounding too needy or too demanding. And that's tough. Right. Because again, like, flip the script. Like, we would really want others to want to be heard. Like, you know, I think that's the tricky thing is like, even if we don't say, hey, can you ask me more questions? A really helpful tool here can be like framing your boundary or request as not just a good thing for you, but a good thing for the relationship as a whole, so you kind of get the other person's buy in. So, like, even if we were to say something like, in this case, like, hey, you know, I really want our friendship to be a space where we can share equally and bounce off each other and exchange ideas, and would you be open to kind of exploring that dynamic with me a little bit more? That's a little vague. I'm just kind of riffing on the spot. But the tool here of, like, framing a boundary as a benefit to the relationship overall can actually really help because it makes it less about our needs and more about how could this relationship really thrive. And in a lot of cases, a more equal conversation would really help that.

Totally. So do you think that trying to do it in subtle ways is helpful or it's just not being clear?

I think that subtle ways at first are good. For example, I literally had a therapy session about this this year. This is how hitting home this is. So even working on, we have some responsibility here too, right? Because if we're never interjecting or we're never speaking up or we're never adding our voice to the conversation, we are not taking our 50% of the responsibility to share the conversation. So my first recommendation if we struggle with this dynamic is, I know it's hard. I want to name that right off the bat. I know it's hard, but work on interjecting, you know, work on saying, hey, you know, let me. Let me cut you off for a sec. What you were just saying reminds me of something that happened last week and dovetail into your story. Or if they interrupt you, say, hey, just real quick, I just want to finish this thought, then say the thought. These are little, tiny. I just think of the muscle, like the muscle metaphor. We have to strengthen that muscle of speaking up. We can start there. And if we notice that over and over they're not receptive to those little attempts and interjections, then maybe we have a more substantive conversation about what we need.

At what point do you think it's worth just maybe giving up on the friendship, if it continues to be that way, or trying to set up maybe like you do an activity together so it's not just in conversation or, you know, I think for some friendships, it's more like you might have some friends that you more easily go back and forth in a conversation with other friends. It is more of that draining. So, yeah, really, my question is, at what point should we just drop a friendship?

Yeah, I know, right? Because, like, it's more complex than Like a pros and cons list. You know, I had a client once who gave me this awesome little saying. Like, when she was trying to decide whether to make difficult conversations, she would often just say, like, is it heavy or is it light? And it sounds simple, but, like, if this friendship is repeatedly bringing you heaviness, if you're always leaving feeling drained and that resentment is just building up and you're just really feeling like there's that mismatch, I think it's totally, totally healthy for both parties if you leave it behind. I also think it can be helpful, like in this case with the friend who talks too much type of thing. It's worth assessing the friendship and looking at all, if any, like, the other qualities in that person that you really value. In other words, if this one pattern were to shift, would the friendship suddenly feel light again? Because if so, it's really worth talking about it and just seeing. But I do think it's important to give ourselves permission to have these deal breakers. And if for you, like listening, if this dynamic is not working for you and it's not great for your mental health, like, it's not working and that's okay.

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I can't believe these questions are just so good. They're really making me think. And again, they're really speaking to my own experience. This year, I think I'd like to speak to each separately. So, like, to start with the friend or person going through the same problem over and over and over. Been there. And I think at a certain point, if we've done so much inner work and we're really working on breaking our old habits and speaking up and all this stuff, and we're interacting with a person who's really kind of stuck in the same cycle over and over. That can be really hard to maintain a connection because you care about this person, but you're constantly seeing them in strife and pain. And I think perhaps the hardest part for us is we feel like they're not necessarily taking action to improve their situation. That's one of the hardest things. Just myself, I can only speak personally. This year, I found myself in a scenario exactly like that. And I ultimately did make the decision to lovingly depart, like you said, consciously uncouple from that friendship. And that is a really hard decision because for me, I wondered, am I just not being compassionate to this person's suffering again? Am I being too demanding? And I think ultimately the place I had to come to, and perhaps you too, in your own journey, has just been to say, regardless of whether it's, quote, right or wrong or compassionate or not, I am feeling so much heaviness and weightedness around this connection that it is harming my mental health. And the next best thing, the most honest thing I could do here for either of us is to be honest and let that connection lovingly go. We feel like we have to spin these stories and really know, is it morally, objectively, 100% the right thing to do? And sometimes our bodies is just telling us what we need. Have you ever had that feeling before?

Yes. I mean, I think a lot of us people pleasers, as kids, we were like the responsible ones. And we were also maybe the ones who could see the dynamics in a family. So like, naturally we would be able to be like, oh, there's like a narcissistic thing happening here, and there's Some whatever happening here. So we became our family's therapists and then we became our friends therapists and then we started to get love from helping people. So I would find myself in a lot of friendships where I became their coach in a friendship. And the dynamic of the friendship, sure we would have fun, but it was also almost like I felt responsible for fixing their lives. And then, for example, I had one friend that her issue was really about her own worthiness when it came to men. And she would just constantly be in these patterns with men that she was really dishonoring herself. And I would give her these pep talks and we would talk about her childhood and all of these things. And then she would do it again, and then she would do it again, and then she would do it again. That eventually I felt like my words were just like going in the air. And it's like one thing to help someone and you see that they're making a shift. And that feeling is so gratifying. But it's another thing to feel like your words are just being wasted away. It's going in one ear and out another. That you're just like, I'm not going to give my energy to this thing anymore. And at that time I was in my early 20s, I did not have the vocabulary to consciously depart. So I kind of just like stopped responding. And me stopping responding actually got her to write me a letter saying, I know the real reason why you stopped responding. It's because you could feel how jealous I was of your relationship and like this whole thing sharing about that, which actually wasn't even the reason why, but it was like actually some of her jealousy about my relationship that was causing.

Her to just like look for love.

In any way possible. Which again, just reaffirms that that friendship was not in alignment.

Whoa. Mind blowing thing, right? And then all these layers come out. It's like, whoa. Didn't see that coming. Yeah, exactly. Something I did want to name because it's really interesting you brought this up. Like, I've been there too. That exact phenomenon of like someone's in a toxic cycle with partners and they keep seemingly choosing this toxic cycle and it's this fine line because in my experience, my friends who have been there, it's not like they're asking for my help or coaching. I find myself, and this is where I need to set boundaries with myself, is not falling into that coaching role when it's not being requested of me, which can be tough sometimes because I just, I'm like, I want to help I want to help. But then also, like, even I think it's normal to feel sometimes that, like, again, fundamental mismatch. Maybe we're at a point in our journey where I myself have been in enough toxic relationships to know that that's not an area I really want to enter consciously into anymore. And spending time with a person who was constantly in these toxic relationships felt, for me at that point in my journey, too triggering. It was too close to home, and I needed some space. And, like, I don't know. I've really worked on normalizing that and normalizing this idea of mismatch because nobody needs to be wrong. It's sometimes just not a good fit, and that's okay.

And part of what I realized, too, is why I go into this coaching dynamic with friends, which I don't really do so much anymore because I surround myself by empowered people. But it's almost like I feel what they're going through so much that I want to coach it and fix it so I don't have to feel it anymore.

Yes. Oh, my God, yes.

I remember.

That speaks to me so much. I remember my therapist saying to me, especially in this case, it's like, it sounds like this friend is actually not feeling her anger with regards to her toxic relationship, and you are feeling her anger instead. It's almost like if someone isn't feeling their feelings, we feel them instead, which becomes very heavy and uncomfortable.

Totally. Like, for example, my husband, he works with a lot of, like, DJ producers. He works in the music industry, and they're not really, like, doing personal growth. So it's, like, hard for me to hang out with a lot of the people because it's just. I instantly go into, like, what is your dharma? Why are you here? Like, how can you embody your fullest expression? And, like, I start coaching all of them, and then I'm drained after of, like, oh, like, I can't be around these people because I have to fix their lives. And it's like. He's like, they didn't ask you just started. I'm like, oh, it's because, yeah, it's this. I see what you need so clearly, and it's, like, blasting into my face that I can't help but to fix you and be there for you. But again, that's not a them thing, because they hang out with people all the time who aren't doing that for them. It's a me thing.

And what a. Like, I mean, what a powerful reframe to look back and be like, oh, yeah, that's kind of a me thing. And for me, it's kind of forced me to reconsider, like, what is my value beyond what I give and how I help, you know? And, like, what is my role as a friend? Because historically, my role was always, well, I'll listen and I'll give advice, and I'll always be available. And so if I want to break those patterns, it's kind of made me consider, like, a more full way I can show up to my friendships, whether it's, like, being kind of funny and sardonic or sharing these cool philosophical ideas I came up with this week or whatever. And all these ways are kind of foreign, at least to me, because taking up space with myself feels scarier than letting myself just be a vessel for whatever other people want to share. So that's a muscle I'm actively working on building is being like, no, I'm valuable when I take up space with myself. And people actually want to know me. They want to hear my stupid, silly jokes, and they want to hear my humor, and they want to hear my ideas. And that reframe has been fundamental, too.

I love that so much. Just changing the way that you enter into friendships of maybe, like, typically, when you meet up with a friend for coffee or like, so how has it been since last time I saw you? Tell me everything. Which, again, I think for a lot of us as, like, women, we've been conditioned to, like, that's how we hang out. Like, I had this realization a few years ago that I'm like, I don't like meeting up for coffee or a zoom date and just talking about all of the events that have happened, happened to us since the last time we saw each other. Like, that doesn't feel good for me to hear. To be honest, I don't think that person really cares. Oh, and then I go into a fight with this person, and then this. It's just like, almost like there. We're using each other as journals rather than friendships that now I've made it. And for the past couple of years, I'm the person who will, like, come up with activities. I'm like, we're making gingerbread houses for the holidays. Do you want to come? Or we're doing an arts night or playing the drums or something like that. And honestly, that's what everyone wants. People don't really want to just talk about their problems. It's just we don't really know how else to hang out. So be that person to create the type of activity or environment that you Want to be a part of.

Oh man, I love that. I literally just wrote this down on my paper. Activity based because gingerbread night.

No one will say no.

And I think this is one way. I think Esther Perel talks about this in her books. But this idea of like the feminization of intimacy, meaning we've come to understand intimacy, especially among women, as exchanging intimate details of our hearts and lives. And while that's extraordinarily valuable and I love that stuff, it's almost like, especially in my experience among other women, we've like devalued the importance of just like doing stuff together, which is something I notice a lot of like male identified folks use a lot of activities as like a bonding strategy. And that's something I've been talking about lately with my women friends. Exactly like you said, is like incorporating more of those activity based hangs. So you're not just. I love that. Using each other as journals.

Totally. And I think also too, I try to ask interesting questions that again, sometimes people are just having conversation based on where they're at. But if I ask a question of like, if you could have dinner with three people, dead or alive, who would they be? It's like instantly the conversation is going to get more interesting. So whether it's like at Thanksgiving or just hanging out with a group of girls that it could turn into like gossiping or whatever, I just ask these questions and everyone gets really excited, like what's your new moon intention? Or what's your word for this year? Et cetera. So I feel like just being curious about people is what we really want. So all of that is so good. Now I would really love for you to share a little bit more about how people pleasing is actually a control problem.

Oh, yes. This is a dicey one because it's something. This is part of the denial phase where like, no, it's not. I'm just really nice. So the way I see people pleasing and control overlapping is as people pleasers, we mold and shape ourselves in order to elicit a desired reaction from someone else, which is not intentionally controlling or manipulative, but is right. If we knew that someone else was putting on a very specific mask when they interacted with us and then toss that mask when they left the door, we'd be like, whoa, they weren't being honest with me. They weren't being authentic. And frankly, we're kind of engaging in the same performance when we engage with other people. And it is, you know, whether it's like, what they're the core Intention is we're doing it to be loved, we're doing it to be liked. We're doing it so that they enjoy us, whatever. Like, it is controlling. It is. It's just really interesting. And sometimes the thought of being authentic or transparent freaks us out because we sometimes don't even know who we are when we are not people pleasing. And so there's also an element of self discovery there that is really important. But a lot of people don't like this idea. I'm just going to say it a lot of people, because it's tough, because a lot of us developed people pleasing as a coping mechanism to, as you alluded to and I alluded to stuff that went down in childhood. And so there's a really strong resistance. It's like, whoa, don't tell me I'm being controlling. This is a trauma response. I didn't choose this. And both can be true. Our people pleasing can be a trauma response and we need to have compassion for that. And we need to understand how our people pleasing can harm or manipulate other people in ways that don't serve them.

Yeah. I think about, like, if you think about the wounded mother archetype who, you know, she does the kids laundries and she calls them, she's like, please, are you going to come home this weekend? Please, I'll make your favorite dish. And it comes off as people pleasing, but really it's control. Like, really it's, I'm going to be so overtly nice and do everything you want because I want you here. And often they want you there for their own emotional support. Right. It's like once you get there, then it's like, here's what I'm going through. And it's like almost like they reeled you in with the people pleasing. But actually there's an element of, could be in some cases narcissism under people who may come off as people pleasers.

Yeah. To inspire that sense of like, indebtedness, you know, I remember this one time I had a roommate and this roommate brought two of their friends over every so often and they were cool people and I really wanted to. I wanted them to like me. Right. So. And I just say this, it's like awkward, but it's true. I wanted them to like me. So back then I would, like ask really specific questions and just be really bubbly when they were around and really do it up. And I remember after a couple of these hangs, these folks were perfectly civil to me. They were perfectly friendly, but they didn't Seek extra connection. They weren't texting me. They weren't reaching out to hang. And it was fascinating because I felt really wounded. And I was like, how dare they? I actually shifted it in my mind and I was like, they're so cold and mean, so standoffish. But then I realized I was like, whoa. Like, I wasn't doing this to be genuinely friendly. I was doing it because I wanted a certain reaction from these two people. And to see that play out in myself and to see all the resentment I held when they didn't hold up their end of the bargain was so illuminating for me. And it really forced me to consider, like, how often are we giving this kindness freely? And how often are there strings attached? And that's a really cool inquiry for us to carry into any of these situations where we feel like we're being very generous.

So true. Yeah. It's almost like we feel like we're safer if people like us, but really it's the safety that we're seeking rather than the connection of, I want my roommates friends to like me because then I'll feel safe when they're around. And then if they're not trying to go deeper with me in a friendship, that means they must know something that's wrong with me. Therefore, I don't feel safe around them anymore. So fuck them. I hate them. Something's wrong with. Let me call out all the things that are wrong with them, you know? And it's like, sometimes too, then I think we start to, like, for example, let's say someone unfollows you on Instagram, you start to go in your head of, like, all of the reasons why they may have done it. And, like, I probably pissed them off by posting this, or they probably didn't like this, or they probably think I'm too xyz. And it's like, if it was really about connection, you would be like, oh, I miss that person. But if it becomes around, what are all of the things they saw made them not like me, then it's really about control. Yes.

I love how you said, like, if it were really about connection, it would be different.

Right?

And that's totally true. Even with, like, the giving, like, oh, let me make you dinner, Let me give. Let me help you. Like, if it were truly about giving, how they respond to that giving, it wouldn't matter whether they accept it or not. We care about helping them. But with people pleasers, there's this tendency if we're trying to help or fix something for someone and they don't need our help or they don't want it. We become very resentful sometimes and we make it about us. And that's how we know this wasn't the intention wasn't to connect and give. The intention was to be valued by this person, which is a human thing. But again with all these behaviors like when they dominate or control how we interact with other people, it's harmful.

So true. Another thing that you shared is folks with codependent tendencies tend to over focus on things over which they have no control. Others, others feelings, others actions and under focus on things over which they do have control. Their own future needs, emotions and reactions. Can you share a little bit more about this?

Yeah, for sure. This is one of my favorite ideas in this whole like codependency or people pleaser canon. Because while at first it might sound kind of disheartening, I actually find it really empowering because it's true. Like ways we focus on. I'll just give a quick breakdown. Like we focus on others feelings and actions by shape shifting and trying to elicit desired responses from people and giving help where help isn't needed. Or we try to control others relationships by playing middleman or playing therapist or enabler. There are all these ways that we kind of reach our hands into other people's lives and play around when in actuality that's really all beyond our control. We might have a little influence, right? But really what other people choose to do with their bodies and time is up to them. And it can feel so liberating to recognize when we've overextended ourselves and redirect that energy home through things like setting our boundaries, prioritizing time to meet our fundamental needs instead of waiting for someone else to mind, read our needs and meet them for us. Or again, knowing which relationships are worth participating in, charting a future for our dreams. Like these are really all things a lot of people pleasers tend to neglect or under focus on. And it can leave us feeling really hollow and empty because we feel like our lives are entirely based upon the people in them instead of us.

So true. Our self care practices, our boundaries with ourselves. I think so many of these issues, we think they're about boundaries with others, but they're really boundaries within ourselves and having a stronger clarity of that. I mean we are in control of so much more than we give ourselves credit for. But sometimes we get so fixated on the one thing that we don't have control of. Like why isn't this person taking care of their health and like, all we can think about is like, why aren't they taking care of their health? Because them not taking care of their health is going to maybe have an implication on me, but it's like, that's not in your control. That's their body and that's their choice. And how can you instead take more care of your own health?

That's the kicker, right? Because ultimately it's like what you said earlier, like, we want to change their relationship to their health because it makes us uncomfortable. We want something, we want them to be healthy. But if we acknowledge that's not in my control and then we redirect back that, back inwards, we suddenly have options and we can actually do something about it instead of just ruminating or worrying.

Yeah, like my dad, he drinks Coke, like two cans of Coke a day, eats so much junk food, doesn't care about of his body. And for me, I was like a health coach, ayurvedic practitioner. Like, I'm the total opposite end of the spectrum. So every single time I go, I'm like telling him, like, you know, you can drink water, sparkling water, like exercise, or like, here's trainers and like, all of these things. And he's just, he's not interested in it and he's not having it. And I would get so frustrated of, like, why doesn't he care? Like, he could die. Like, why does he not care about dying? And I had to realize, like, that's his choice. Like, who am I to tell him, oh, I want you to be healthy so you can live longer, so I don't have to suffer from your death. But that's his choice. And even something like that, someone's choice to die is their own. And the more and more we try to control that, the more and more we think we're God and we're not. They have their own destiny. They have their own intuition. If we trust our own, then we also have to trust that they have their own as well. And I think it's like our control of, like, well, I know what's best. Or like, well, obviously being unhealthy is not the answer. But again, if you've offered the tools and they have said no, it's your own journey to learn how to love without having any conditions around it.

Yeah, just unconditionally. And like you said, learning how to honor their autonomy. And I really love how you reframe that. If we've tried to help and that help has either been rejected or not received, then our work shifts. Like, you Said our work becomes learning how to either love them unconditionally or learning how to let go, which for many of us is learning. Like it takes practice. And something else you said that I really enjoyed was this idea of like boundaries with ourselves. You know, I definitely believe that every time we set an external boundary, like a boundary with other people, we first have to have an internal boundary with ourselves. So like, I need to honor my own boundary of I won't let myself be spoken to this way in order to set an external boundary of please don't speak to me that way. But it has to stem from a really core, non negotiable sense of what we deserve and will accept from other people. And I kind of wish that were talked about more because it really demands that firmness of what we deserve.

Yeah, it's almost like how would we even know what our boundaries are with other people if we haven't set them within ourselves at first? Because every single person, it's too late once the situation has shown up and we're like, oh yeah, and I also have that boundary. And that boundary, it's like clear from the get go of like, how what do I need in an interaction? Right? And then when you can see that things are off, then you know, okay, the reason why this feels off is maybe someone has a really direct way of speaking and it's kind of like ruffling your feathers a little bit. It's like, okay, maybe asking them, you know, I get that you're really direct communicator. Would you mind softening it up a little bit when you speak with me? And oftentimes that person, person doesn't even know. Like we often just have no idea the way that we come off. So it's like giving a loving nudge is oftentimes very, very well received. And in fact, like, that's why we hire coaches and therapists because we all want feedback on ourselves too, but for some reason we're afraid to be the ones to give it to somebody.

Yeah, it's funny how much we fear that. And I like to remember, like I made a post about this a while ago, but it's just this idea that every time we give like a little loving nudge or set a little boundary like that, we're essentially giving another person like a guide on how to best love us and care for us. And who wouldn't want that guidebook? I want that from my friends. Like, I want to know what they need and what makes them feel safe. And it's helpful to Be able to offer that to somebody and to ourselves. Like something I think is really important for us in our practice of developing this muscle of being able to set better boundaries is just knowing what our little signposts are that say, hey, you might need a boundary here, you know, and for some of us, that's overwhelm. For some of us, it's resentment or burnout or a feeling of being drained or all of them. And if we develop that literacy and learn, like, all right, when I feel this way, it's typically a sign I need a boundary. It can help, like, lubricate the process for us over time.

So good. Well, thank you so much for all of the incredible wisdom you shared with us today. So helpful, so practical. Like things that we could put into our lives right now to have better relationships and a better relationship with ourselves, most importantly, because really our relationship with others is a reflection of our relationship with ourselves. And the more and more that we improve on this, the more we can show up and really love and really express and really connect, which is the thing that we want. We're like doing this weird dance of.

Like, sure, I'll do this, I'll be that.

I'll wear this mask. Because we want to connect. But actually being clear on who we are and overcoming any of these people pleasing tendencies will allow us to have true connections where we are seen and seeing that other person for who they are. So thank you so much for your work.

Thank you so much for having me. This was a blast and it really made me think too. Thank you. Great.

And where can listeners connect? Connect with you further?

Yeah, the best place is probably Instagram, so you can find me at Haley Paige McGee or my website, Hailey McGee.com.

Amazing. Well, thank you so much for sharing with us again.

Yeah, my pleasure.

Oh, my goddess. Were you taking notes? Because I was taking mental notes. I'm like, this is a good conversation. It was like a workshop. It was juicy, it was jam packed and I felt a little bit called out. So I hope you enjoyed it. I hope it helps you to have relationships that really come from a place of mutual love and respect. Because when we're in our inner people pleaser, we're actually not coming from that place we think we are, but it's actually coming from a place of I just want you to like me rather than to actually get to know me and for me to get to know you. So like we talked about on the conversation, it can actually come from a place of control rather than love. And how much better would all of our interactions be if it really came from a heart center centered place. So Haley's gonna be teaching us an expert workshop in Dharma Koshi Institute on how to move past guilt as a coach. So be sure to join the waitlist for Dharma Coaching Institute, my Spiritual life coaching institute, if that is of interest to you. And of course, a reminder that doors are opening next week for Rose Gold Goddesses, my Divine Feminine mystery school. So if you are feeling the call to join us for spiritual workshops, diving deep with community, our in person retreat, and so much more, head over to rosegoldgoddesses.com both of those links are in the show notes. I hope you enjoyed this episode and I'll see you in the next one. Namaste.

Ram.