467: Let's Get Real About Navigating Female Friendships As An Adult with Danielle Bayard Jackson

40% of adults don't have a best friend, according to, like, the latest research from the spring of 2021. So if you don't have that one person, I mean, you're in good company, if anything. See, what is it that I need? And am I getting that from the collective community in my life? So do I have a space in my life where I do feel very affirmed? Do I have a space where I feel intellectually challenged? Do I have a space where I can be vulnerable and trust that it's safe to be vulnerable here? Perhaps you get all of that from the collective in your community, and, and that has to be a way to be sufficient and build you up. And I do think it's special when you find that from the singular. But can you find a way to be satisfied with enjoying those things from a collective community?

Hello, hello, good morning, good afternoon, wherever you are. Drop into this moment right here because we're about to get started, started on the Highest Self podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. I'm your host, Sahara Rose, Ancient Soul, Modern Body. And for the past five and a half years, I've been tuning into this podcast every single week, sharing ways that you can make spirituality more grounded, relatable, and fun. Because I believe the path to your highest self is through joy. And one of the ways I have cultivated the most joy is through my friendships, through community. This is something I really deeply stand for. This is why I created Rose Gold Goddesses, my sacred feminine mystery school, and why I stand so deeply for women, men, non binary, all people to come together and be real with each other, create memories, share art, stories, wisdom, magic. Because my greatest memories in this lifetime have always been with other people. And so many of us are deeply craving that connection. And specifically, I want to talk about female friendships here because a lot of us in middle school and high school, we may have had more friends than we have right now, but then we experienced a lot of the drama. You know, girls talking bad about each other, feeling left out, just all of the politics that can come in female friendships. And I feel like after being in high school and even college, we tend to focus more on our work. And it's a little bit harder to make friends as an adult. It's like, where are you going to meet all these people? Before you could just go to school and meet a bunch of people, whereas now it's a lot harder. And people live in, in different parts of the city, the country, the world, and it takes a Lot of energy to keep in touch. And there's social media and you gotta text and do zoom calls with each other and just be really clear and honest with yourself about what are the friendships I want to continue investing into and what are the friendships that served a purpose in my life for some period of time and I'm ready to move on from. And I think that this gets a lot more complicated as well when we go on a spiritual journey, because then we're evolving and shifting so quickly that the people in our lives might not understand it. They might think we're weird, crazy, or we just might not find the same depth and value in the friendship. So a lot can come up in female friendships on top of that, being a spiritual person. So this has been an area of. Of real interest of mine, and I was on TikTok, where I find a lot of the guests on this podcast. I'm like, ooh, I like your wisdom. And I found this beautiful woman, Danielle, and she was speaking about female friendship. She's a friendship expert. Like, this is what she focused on. She's written a book about. And I just loved how she broke down so many common things that happen in female friendships, like jealousy, ghosting, how to navigate conflict when it's time for a friendship breakup, or when it's time to work through a situation that might be showing up. Like, all these really specifics that I know I have experienced, I really open up on this podcast and share some of situations with my friendships and are really universal as well. So this episode has been one of my favorite yet on the podcast. I really think it's going to go down as a one of the most downloaded because it's so needed right now. And we really break down female friendships in all forms from just common situations that you might experience. And I actually was asking her for advice on different things that I have experienced too. You know, I feel also as entrepreneurs, there's a lot of nuances in entrepreneurial friendships. Sometimes it's like your friends, but are you like business friends or are you actual friends? So we talk about that and so much more on this podcast. And I know you're gonna get so much value from it and probably listen to it again. So I highly recommend also sharing this with your friends because, hello, we want to have better female friendships. We got to learn because frankly, none of us have been taught to do this. And sometimes we just need to have compassion for everyone where they are on their journey and learn and share what we have learned and grown with, because that helps other People evolve as well. So I know you're going to just feel really seen and heard and probably learn a lot more about even the ways that you have been showing up in female friendships through this episode. So without further ado, let's welcome Danielle to the High Self podcast. And before we get started, I'd love to share with you this special offer. 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I play incredible and I guide you through dancing and just really feeling the messages that your body has for you. And you're going to feel so different on the other side. People seriously say I can't believe how amazing I feel in less than 10 minutes. And I'm so excited to see how it turns out for you. So if you're interested, head over to iamsaharrose.com embodiment again that's iamsaharrose.com embodiment and you can find that link in the show notes and download the practice. Without further ado, let's get into this week's episode. Welcome Danielle to the Highest Self podcast. It's so great to have you here.

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited for this conversation.

Yes. And the first question I would love to ask you is what makes you your highest self?

Definitely without a doubt my friendships. I think being in communion with women I I love and who love me back helps me to be my highest self.

So I found you on TikTok like two years ago and I have just been obsessed with your content since because the way that you talk about just such common yet unspoken about issues in friendships, it deeply resonated with me and a lot of People listening to this podcast have been on a spiritual journey, and they might feel like they've outgrown a lot of friendships in their lives. They may feel lonely right now of not having aligned friends, and they also may have friendships that they're holding onto because they've known them for a really long time or they work together or whatever else, but it's not serving them. And a common thing I've noticed in. In the spiritual community and in my audience is that fear of speaking your truth because you're afraid that it might hurt people. So I have lots of questions that I want to ask you about today, but really especially supporting people on spiritual journeys with their friendships, because I think that's one of the hardest things when you're diving into personal development work is like, not everyone else is, and sometimes you feel like you're leaving people behind.

Yeah, I love that you have queued it up and teed it up in that way, because those are all such important things. And I am rooting for the woman who's committed to self development, spiritual development, and then conflicted because she sees how that inevitably touches the relationships that she's cultivated up to that point. And so I know that woman is listening, and I'm ready for us to have a discussion that hopefully adds some value and clarity to her life. Life.

Yes. Yes. Okay. So let's talk about conflicts in friendships. You know, there are a million books out there about how to navigate conflicts with your partner. And, you know, when you're in a relationship with someone, you have the love and the sexual chemistry and all those things holding you together that you don't necessarily have with a friend. And what I've noticed is sometimes when conflict happens in friendship, we can be very quick to say, well, this person's not meant to be in my life. So what questions should we ask ourselves before discarding a friendship?

Yeah, this is tough because, you know, I do think that there are a lot of perhaps cultural things that have brought us to a space where we have not yet normalized a bit of healthy conflict in our platonic relationships as well. And I think that we anticipate in our romantic relationships. There are tons of books, to your point, on how to get over the hump. It's assumed that we're going to have them and that we're going to have to communicate and get over them. But in friendship, I think we have this fantasy that I'll just get her, she'll just get me, things will be unspoken. I don't have to say my needs. And if there's any, any kind of tension or misunderstanding, that is evidence that we are not compatible. And it doesn't always work that way. And I get fearful for the woman who sees any kind of tension as a reason to leave or as evidence that this is not going to work out. So I appreciate you asking that question when we're trying to figure out, okay, is it really time to leave? There are a couple things. One, if you feel like you've been with somebody for so long and the only reason you stay is because you feel an obligation to honor history, it's no longer fulfilling. It's not helping you grow. If anything, maybe it's emotionally depleting, but you feel like you gotta stay because you've been friends for so long or because she showed up for you during a certain period of your life and you feel like you have to honor that loyalty, that it would be disloyal to end the friendship because of that one time she was there for you. If that's the reason you're staying, I think that points to a need to maybe reevaluate that friendship. Because think about it from the other end. Would you want a friend who you found out she's only friends with you because she feels like she has to be? I mean, you'd say, oh my gosh, don't do me any favors, like, please don't stay here if you feel like you have to. I don't want to bind you in that way. So that's one indicator if there's any kind of constant lying and manipulation or guilting things where you feel like you have to very carefully measure your words or you can't be your full self because you'll be punished or judged or, or anything like that. I think that points to maybe a time for redirection if there's some kind of major betrayal that you feel like you can't get beyond no matter how hard you try, because that will show up in other ways. They're going to start being a little passive aggressive or resentful, or you dread her texts and calls because you're still not over that one thing. You know, I think some of these things point to maybe it's time for me to reevaluate this friendship.

Yeah. And even the being judged in friendship. I want to talk about that because it's inevitable in friendships. You're going to have different preferences.

Right.

Like, some people like to go out, some people like to stay in. So how do we even navigate those differences when, like, we might Feel like we're being judged. Like, what's a healthy amount of okay, I know this person might not love the way that I do this or I don't love that I do that. And like, accepting versus maybe offering our opinion on it.

That's such a great point. Okay, so this is a bit of a nuanced response because, one, you have to be confident in your choices. One that's important because I've noticed that people who are not confident in themselves, their choices, or what it is, they have to offer that question mark. It's like they walk around with this question mark over their heads like a cloud, and you need it affirmed everywhere you go. And you have to kind of be confident and sure in your own compass. Because a friend saying, like, girl, you're still doing that, or, ugh, you like that. Does it totally rattle you to have friends who disapprove or they don't agree or they don't share your lifestyle or they would have chosen differently? Can you still be in communion with somebody who does not see certain things the way that you do, or does it totally rattle your sense of self? That's the first thing, I think the second thing is, is it actual judgment or perceived judgment? So it goes back to, I feel like I'm being judged. I think a lot of times if you are insecure about a certain thing, you are going to feel judged everywhere because you're not sure about holding that position or view on something. So take care of that first. Now, some hard evidence with a point, too, is whenever you share an opinion or something like that, you have friends who speak to you in a condescending way like, oh, you like that? Oh, you do that. I would never. Okay, this person doesn't affirm you who you are or allow you to have autonomy and allow you to have different choices. There's no room for differentiation there. That is not okay. If you have a friend who finds out that you made a choice that she wouldn't have made about her life, so she withdraws in response to that, or belittles or condescends or questions in an attempt to convert or to change, do you feel like you have enough safety where you can shine differently and choose differently and it's okay. Now there is going to be some correction in close friendships where a friend says to me, like, Danielle, that girl, that was not okay, Or I want to ask you about this because I don't. I don't know how I feel about that. And we can safely engage in that kind of discourse And I can either lean in to what she's sharing and say, okay, I never thought about it like that. You're right, or I can say, you know what? No, after listening to you, I don't agree with that. And we're still okay. And so it takes a couple other things in an environment to feel that kind of emotional safety, to have diverging opinions or paths. But if you do feel like I really can't be myself here, then I think that points to something important.

And I think also knowing that we can have different friends for different sides of ourselves, and, you know, we might have those friends that we love doing yoga with and those friends that we love talking about TV shows with and friends that we love going hiking with. So I feel like often in the media where we see this portrayal of, like, you're my best friend, best friend, and we're going to do everything and we're going to have everything in alignment. And then when there's one thing that you don't, then it's like, is this really my best friend? So how can we satisfy the different sides of ourselves through different types of friendships without feeling like, yeah, this idea that one friendship or, or a group of friends needs to be my core group of friends, and I can't go outside of that.

Yeah, I love you asking that because it gives us permission to explore what best friendship looks like. Now, this is not necessarily an idea that everyone adopts, but my position on best friends is that you don't always have to get everything you need from one person. If anything, it does kind of put a lot of pressure on that person. Now, I do acknowledge that some women have that. I think that's very beautiful to feel like, man, I found someone who is funny, and she gets, you know, all of my little quirks and, and she satisfies all these things for me, I think is really beautiful. But 40% of adults don't have a best friend, according to, like, the latest research from the spring of 2021. So if you don't have that one person, I mean, you're in good company, if anything. See, what is it that I need? And am I getting that from the collective community in my life? So do I have a space in my life where I do feel very affirmed? Do I have a space where I feel intellectually challenged? Do I have a space where I can be vulnerable and trust that it's safe to be vulnerable here? Perhaps you get all of that from the collective in your community, and that has to be a way to be sufficient and build you up. And I do think it's special when you find that from the singular. But can you find a way to be satisfied with enjoying those things from a collective community? When I, you know, first thought to that. And then once you open up to that idea, perhaps, yeah, you can be comfortable with getting all those things from different pockets of the world without putting the pressure on one person to sustain, satisfy, and affirm you in a bunch of different ways. If anything, there's research that shows that we benefit from having a lot of different people because we do show different sides of ourselves with different people. One activity I like to do with clients is, you know, to have them to repeat the statement I am blank and to fill that in as many times as possible. I challenge them to, like, 10 or 20 times. You're likely filling that out with different aspects of your identity. I am. So for me, I am a mother, I am a woman, I am black. All those things make me who I am. And then I encourage you to go to the spaces where you feel like those aspects of your identity are affirmed. Where do I feel like, I can be a mom and women just get it, Or I can be an intellectual and people get it. I can be a woman. And I feel like, yes, I feel more of a woman among this company. Like, I feel so tuned into my womanhood here. So identifying those aspects of your identity should point you to where the spaces you should occupy to be among the people who can affirm that aspect of yourself.

That is such a good practice. And I think sometimes what happens is we take one of those things and we make that our core group of friends of, like, I am a mother, so single people don't understand me. I can't be friends with people who aren't mothers. And then we make. We discard the other friends who are only friends with the mother friends, for example. And then we feel like we can't have those intellectual conversations or we can't do this, and we're missing all these different sides, and then we're trying to turn someone into something else. And I think that that's just such a great practice to see. And it's even like, not even so much of identity, but like, I am joyful. It's like, who are the friends that bring the joy out in me? Like, I am intuitive. Who are the friends that I get to talk about intuition with me. And even just different sides of our personalities and soul selves and reflecting that in friend groups.

Yes, totally agree. That's beautiful.

Yes. And I want to talk about this concept of best friends, because I feel like it has so much pressure in our society. It's like, you know, from the time you're a kid, you have the best friend bracelets and the. You're the other side of my heart. And if you don't have a best friend, it can feel like, lonely or is something wrong with me? And I heard someone say something funny of best friend is not a person, but a tear. And that woman don't have necessarily one singular best friend, though they may, but it's often like a tier of how close I am to you. So for best friends, you know, for some people that might be their top four friends or even their top 10 friends. So what does the word best friend really mean to you in your research?

I totally. I've heard that before about the. The tier, and I. I love that so much because I think it gives a lot of room to being able to engage with a lot of different people in a lot of different ways. It kind of gives you permission. On my podcast, the Friend Forward Podcast, I did an episode on that, talking about, okay, for some women, it is a singular individual. For some, it's, you know, the collective. There's research on why we do feel this way so that we don't feel like we're just in our heads and it's just us. The number one thing that women prioritize in their female friendships is emotional support. And the second thing is prioritization, meaning if I feel like, you know, you're my number one, I kind of secretly expect that I'm your number one, too. Like, we like feeling like we're on the same wavelength, you and me. Also, we tend to get close through self disclosure. So I'm sharing about my life with you, you're sharing with me. And eventually it feels like we're creating, like, this special sacred bolt you and I like. You get me, you see me. And so the idea that you could duplicate this special thing somewhere else feels like it diminishes the value of what we have. And so I think that's why we really gravitate toward, you know, one to one, because it feels so close and intimate. And our friendships are. They do have more platonic intimacy than men's friendships because we open up and we share and we're there for each other. And our friendship tend to be more dyadic, one to one, as opposed to men who will have, like, multiple friends. And so I could see how all of those things, when you add them up, it equals we're looking for that one woman who just gets it, you know? And so, again, I think that's a very special thing. And if that's a goal of yours is to find somebody who you can really open up with and create something very special with, I think that's a lovely sentiment. I would just say look at the ways that that maybe limits or restricts your satisfaction of life, how it maybe skews some of your friend making journey. If you're looking for that one singular person to maybe kind of reevaluate what that looks like. Do you find that you get clingy and obsessive with one person and you're trying to create fast friendship and now you're neglecting all these other people in your life who bring you joy, you know? So look at how it kind of, you know, impacts a relationship. Do you currently have a best friend, but you find that you have so many expectations of her, or if she goes and hangs out with other people, it really emotionally impacts you because you haven't nurtured other friendships. So I would say if you want to have a best friend or you have a best friend, just put your head on a swivel and look at the ways that holding that value is maybe indirectly impacting other relationships in your life.

That's such great advice. And, you know, one of the tricky things about best friends too is like, when do you decide your best friends? You know, it's like you're getting close with someone. It's like, it almost feels weird. It's like, are you my girlfriend? You know, to me, like, are we best friends? And then it's like putting a label on and that same pressure. And maybe for one person that is their number one, but you're not their number one. And I feel like it's just like a hard conversation to have. And then another thing you alluded to are the friendship expectations. And I know for some people, they have a lot of expectations of, like, what does it mean to be in my inner circle? And this means we talk every single day and we do this and that. And for some people, they're a little bit more distant as friends. And you might be best friends and not talk for months. I'd love to ask you, from just learning so much about so many different female friendships, how much should we verbally talk about our expectations versus them just kind of like, naturally coming to be in a relationship? Like, should we be like, hey, now that we're best friends, like, these are what my expectations are? Or is that gonna scare People away.

Yeah. Oh, gosh. So I don't get this question much.

And I.

But I think it's so important in terms of, like, when to have the expectations talk. You know, I feel like when we bring it to the table, like, it's a cont. It could feel formal, it could feel intimidating, it could shine here. Exactly. Like, Here are my 10 expectations. Do you agree? You know, I love the idea of bringing it up as it comes along, unless you know that there's something that you feel like upfront is so urgent and so important that people need to know from the beginning and you determine that for yourself. Okay. But I like the idea of bringing it up as it happens so that it feels organic. So maybe I have a friend who text me a lot. I mean, like, all the time. And I'm thinking, oh, my God, that is a lot. For me personally, that is a lot. So maybe in this moment, I lovingly say to her, like, hey, just a heads up if you find that I'm really delayed on text. It's not personal, but I. I've noticed that I'm kind of like a check in once a week kind of gal. So just. I just wanted to throw that out there so we're on the same page. It's not, you know, it doesn't make her feel like she got lectured. Hopefully it doesn't embarrass her, but it helps to align our expectations. So maybe she still is the type who likes to touch daily. That's still her. But at least now she has data that can help her understand how to interpret my response so that she doesn't internalize that. Oh, Danielle must be mad at me. Oh, Danielle must not be interested. I guess she's not responding back and it's like, oh, no, I have a bit of a lower touch style. And so she can keep being herself, I can keep being myself. But at least now we kind of like, bridged the gap a little bit and hopefully if we find value in the friendship, you know, keep moving forward together. So I think organically bringing it up when it happens is a more natural way to address it as opposed to writing it all down and letting people know what all your expectations are, which can kind of make it feel like a. A boss employee dynamic. Like, here are the rules, and I just want to let you know, as opposed to, hey, here's how I feel loved. Here's where I'm thriving. These are the things that really make me feel great. And when it comes to boundary setting, I like to suggest that we Kind of do it that way to talk about what you really, really like. And I mean the meta message there, like the subtext is that you don't like these things. So instead of, for example, hey, I don't like when people call me late at night. I don't like that when you're blowing up my phone after nine, like, please don't do that. Can feel so restrictive and stiff and feel like a correction instead of like, hey, so I know that I'm really best on the phone like before six, like my brain is alert and I am alive. And so if you want to call me before 8, I'm telling you now, that's when you're gonna get my best. And so I'm redirecting toward what I really like and come join me over here. I mean the implication is that I dislike the opposite. And so I think when it comes to setting expectations, doing it in a loving matter of fact way might be better for people to receive.

I love that of how you're saying instead of please don't contact me after 9pm it's in this really friendly and compassionate way saying, you know, I'm really at my best before 6:00pm or 8:00pm so it's, it's giving them through love rather than through punishment. So another question I have for you is friendships in triages. You know, I think sometimes that gets really tricky in my own experience and it has even happened in my own life of there was like four of us and then one kind of fell out and then there were three of us. And it works for a really long time, but there was always this like, oh, they're hanging out without me and are they getting closer? Are they talking about me? And like a little bit of that fear. And eventually the triage just did not work. So I'm curious if you've noticed this dynamic among women just doesn't work because of the one on one reciprocal, like nature of the feminine or how it can work.

Okay, so exactly what you just said about our nature is to have that very special sacred vault, one to one dyads. You talk to me, I talk to you. And there's new research that finds that most of us, more than half of us, hang out in a one to one setting. So that's what we do. Why? Because it's easier to coordinate hanging out. Are you free? Are you free? You know, it's easier to determine reciprocity. I gave, so you gave. I talk, so you talk. It seems easier to balance and we know where we stand and then 18% of us congregate regularly as trios, and 9% as four, so, so on and so forth. So it's more common to be in a peer because it seems easier to facilitate and to navigate, like, how we're gonna gradually deepen this relationship. And I can identify more easily when things seem off balance.

Yeah. With three, you almost need, like, a facilitator of, like, did you speak? And it just takes a lot more planning and work, and I think that that adds a formal dynamic to it.

Absolutely. And so, you know, I know you know, trios, successful trios to be true. I've seen it, and women have, and they do just fine. I do think there are a lot of things that have to be in place for a trio to be. One is, I think you need to have a relatively secure attachment style so that you're not panicky and anxious. Whenever they do text without you or whenever they do get coffee and you weren't invited, are you automatically going to like, oh, my gosh, they hate me. They're talking about me. Why didn't they invite me? What does that say if you are likely to go there? I think yes. Friendship trios are going to be a very challenging dynamic for you, maybe mentally and emotionally. So you have to be secure. The second is, you have to understand that there are going to be varying degrees of closeness throughout the trio. So maybe they met in high school, and they're, like, three degrees closer than they are with you. Is that okay? Can you find a way for that to be okay? Or is that always going to bother you because you're trying to maintain a perfect equality across the board of three? I mean, that might drive you nuts. So I think that's kind of tricky, too. And then finally, I think you have to have friends outside of the trio, because if these two are your everything, it is going to hit a little harder if they do talk without you or if they are clicking this week because they both left their jobs at the same time. So they are kind of bonding over this life season right now, and I have to be okay with that. And if not, it helps to kind of buffer it by having other friendships as well. So it can be done. But if you're experiencing hardship in the trio, I. I totally would understand why.

Yeah. And I think a tough thing that happens in trios is when there is a conflict, it's more likely that two people are going to be more on the same side as the other, and the third person's just gonna feel ganged up against which if their two best friends are agreeing, that kind of feels like the end of the world, you know, and then that might make someone just completely discard and remove themselves. So I feel like managing conflict does require just a lot more self responsibility and compassion for one another and conversation. And. And that brings me back to how to navigate really conflict in friendships and attachment styles. So I've noticed just like attachment styles and relationships, we have them in friendships. Some of us tend to be a little bit more on the anxious side of when something's, you know, there's a conflict brewing. We want to talk. Like, I'm more of this. I want to talk about it. I want to know how you feel. Like, I want to know that we're good. Like, I want to be thinking about it all the time. So it, like, puts me at ease for us to just talk about it right now. And for other people, they need their time, they need their space. They're like, don't contact me for a week. I need to go and really think about this, and then I'm gonna come back and let you know. And I think just the way that life works, we often end up in the opposite pairs. So how do we navigate this? While, you know, I think we're all striving to be secure, but do you. Have you noticed we still tend to fall on one of those sides, even if it's not as much?

Sure. Oh, absolutely. And I think, you know, and. And I'll stay in my lane, but I do know that a lot of how conflict was a thing in our home, I. Impacts how we show up in friendship. And I. I just think the nature of friendship itself too. You know, I heard Dr. Marissa Franco, who's a friendship expert and psychologist, and the way that she describes attacks and styles really resonates with me. She says it's about what you project onto moments of ambiguity. Says a lot. And that there's a lot of ambiguity in friendship. So one example she gave is, you know, let's say you're sitting at an event, you're waiting for your friend to show up, you turn around, you see her walk in, you get a excited, and she goes and sits somewhere else, and you have saved her a seat. What do you think in that moment? You know, as your first thought, oh, oh, my gosh, what? Is she mad at me? Like, what the heck? Let me text her. Are you. Are we okay? Are you mad at me? Let me go follow her and see what's going on. That might be more anxious. Is it? Oh, okay. So she sees me and she's not even going to sit here. You know what? That's fine. Like, I don't even need her to sit here. I'm fine. That might be a little more on the other end of the spectrum, you know, avoidant. Both of those are fearful of rejection. They just respond to it in different ways. I'm scared I'm going to be rejected, so let me go and cling and press harder. I'm scared I'm going to be rejected, so let me push her away first. I'll be fine. And then they're securely attached, where I assume during this moment of ambiguity, oh, maybe she doesn't see me. Let me text her and make sure she knows I'm up front. I feel okay about it. I trust that she didn't mean anything by it, you know, and it doesn't mean being naive. It just means the benefit of the doubt and that I believe that I have something off to offer in friendship. So I'm not questioning myself and who I am whenever something happens, you know, is she mad? Awful. Oh, finally, she lost interest in me. Of course, people always lose interest in me. Like, I trust that I have something to offer, and I trust other people to give me love. And that's what it comes down to. And so when it comes to conflicts and friendship, I wonder how much of it is the nature of friendship itself that we don't have these formal contracts, that we don't have these milestones to celebrate, that we're not having conversations about, you know, are we exclusive? Are we not? So. So much of it is ambiguous that I think it does allow for there to be more room of, like, hold on, what's going on? What did you mean by that? And then do we have the kind of security where we can bicker or disagree? But I'm not totally fretting because I know we're going to be okay. But have we established that. That we're going to come back around and reconcile? Or is it like a, oh, gosh, there's a little, you know, fissure here. I guess this is the beginning of the end, you know, and so as much as we can kind of make it normal to disagree, to maybe have a little awkward moment, you know, I'm inevitably going to hurt your feelings unintentionally, because I'm a person who lets people down sometimes, and I forget things or, you know, is there room for you to make mistakes? Or do we see mistakes as evidence of, I shouldn't be here, You're a bad Friend. I knew it. I think that one thing we do that I don't think is the best is something that's called fundamental attribution error. And so whenever another person makes a mistake, we attribute it to their character instead of a circumstance. So one example people often give is if you're in traffic and somebody cuts you off, instead of thinking like, oh, they might be, you know, late, or maybe they didn't see me, it's, oh, my God, she's so rude. People are so rude these days. How could you do that to another person? How could you be so thoughtless and selfish? And so I think when our friends make these mistakes, are we going to like, wow, I didn't even. Okay, I didn't realize she was kind of selfish. That was kind of rude. Instead of like, okay, I don't know what happened today to make her kind of pop off at me on the phone just now. I'm gonna assume she's having a bad day, and later I'm gonna come and ask her, hey, are we good? Cause you seemed really tense on the phone. That's not like you like, like, what's happening? As opposed to, wow, that was so rude. And she's so selfish. And I don't know that I can be friends with a woman who's selfish like that. We go all the way over there. And so I think kind of having curiosity, making room to have tension, showing that you value reconciliation and talking it out has to be normal for us to be able to recover a lot of these friendships that I would argue end prematurely because we don't know how to navigate conflict in a healthy way.

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Mm, yeah, that's tough. If you notice that you feel like a friend is coming at you with stuff and you're like, okay, where is this coming from? I feel like this is her insecurity. Whatever. I always say to address things with as much invitation as possible instead of accusation, because no one responds well to that. So instead of, I feel like you're being a little jealous, which, by the way, that has never helped any friendship ever by saying that. But by saying, like, I feel like you're jealous or like, I feel like you're just projecting, I feel like you. I mean, a person's first natural inclination is, no, I'm not. What are you talking about? We're not going to get anywhere. But being able to point to tangibles and talking about the impact of their behavior, I have found to be more fruitful. So instead of saying, like, I feel like you're jealous because, I mean, you came at me during, you know, lunch the other day, or I talked about my promotion and I didn't hear you say congratulations, like, were you jealous or something? Instead, it's going to be, I take her one on one, not in front of an audience, and say, you know, hey, are you good? Are we good? Because I noticed that I shared XYZ the other day and I noticed you responded in this tangible way. And it made me feel like there was like a disconnect between us. So I just wanted to make sure. Like, am I reading into it or are we good? Because it shows her. I see it. You know, because some people stop whenever they notice that you notice. It shows concern. Like, I'm genuinely wondering because that is so not like you. Are we good? And it shows her that I want to be in communion with you. I want to be in fellowship with you. So let's make sure that we're on the same page about this issue before it festers. Because a lot of us, when we sense that maybe somebody's projecting on us, we go and tell other people. Did you see what she did yesterday? Like, what I mean, is she jealous or something? And then we build up, build up, build up the story so that by the time we go back to her, we're not even. We don't have a heart to even reconcile or to, like, approach her with love because we've been, like, getting hyped up by the squad, and now we're coming to her, like, ready to fight. And also, you know, we say this a lot, but having grace with another person, sometimes it really isn't about you. I mean, I think we know that intellectually, but, like, getting it printed on. On your parent, it is not about you. If a friend is jealous, it might be because she feels like you having is the reflection of her lacking. You got this job, you got this man, you got the this man. What does that say for me? And she doesn't understand that, like, yeah, I can have. And there's enough room for you to have, too. Me having doesn't mean you lacking. But it's rarely about you, the person. And so, yeah, so it's hard when friends project. And if you find that she is sabotaging the Friendship or you feel like you can't share your wins, you have to kind of dim your light a little bit because you don't want her to be uncomfortable. That really, really says something about the friendship that you feel like you cannot do that without being penalized in some kind of way.

I think we've all felt that. We've felt, you know, that feeling of projection and not. And I think, yeah, definitely, if you tell someone, well, you're just jealous of me, you're never gonna get anywhere, and that person's just gonna take the opposite side, and you're not gonna. You know, I think sometimes we have to think, what is our end goal? And, like, if our end goal really is resolution. That's the tough thing for me. It's like, sometimes how much of my truth should I really share? And how much should I just come from a place of just. Just compassion, seeing their side and letting it go? So let's say someone, you had a conflict, and they said some things that they didn't like about you. How much should you be like, well, if that's how they feel about me, then I don't know if I feel safe in this friendship versus, you know, what? They were in a place of conflict and a place of pain, and that's what they said, and maybe they didn't mean it, and let's just, like, move on and resolve this friendship. Like, what's the line there?

Yeah, that's so tricky, right? Cause it's hard. I think it's hard with friends, especially female friends, because there's so much of you as a woman who mirrors me as a woman, you know, and it's so intimate in that way. And so it's like, if a woman rejects you, it feels more painful for some reason, you know, because it's like, you are me, I am you. And so if I'm not good enough here or accepted here, it feels more painful. If a friend tells you, like, I don't like this about you. I don't like that about you. Well, the first thing I would question her motive or tell her to explain to me what is the objective, you know, so if it's to cut me down. So it's like, I think you think you're. You know, you think you're all that. And I don't like your tone, and I think you're judgmental, my question would be, are you telling me this because as a friend, you feel like me doing these things is getting in the way of us being close, or you feel like. Like what is the point? Because if the point is taking pleasure in humbling me, that says something, as opposed to, you're correcting me right now because you're concerned about the path I'm going down, because you've noticed that I have a certain attitude or something that's getting in the way of us being friends, and you can't trust me anymore. And so the goal is, let me make it known because I want to bring us close or because I'm nervous about the path you're going down. That's different than, let me tell you about yourself, because I think you need to be humbled. And we only do that to people who are shining brightly. I mean, you wouldn't tell somebody else they think they're all. That they're too good if they're. If you already kind of see them as lowly or humble or mediocre. We only offer that kind of feedback to people we think are shining too brightly to bring them down a peg. So that already says something right there. But I would ask them, what's the point? Okay. And then telling me all that, like, what's the point? I'm just trying to understand and, like, calling it out because I'd be so curious about how they respond to that. Well, I'm letting you know because I'm just concerned. Like, I'm seeing danger ahead for you if you keep up with that attitude. Oh, so you're concerned about me? Or is it just like. Well, I don't know. I just feel like you're getting, like, a big head or you think you're too good? Like, I don't think I'm too good. You think I think I'm too good. That has nothing to do with me, you know? So asking people their motivation right up front I think is helpful in making them process in their own brain and say it out their own mouth, you know, having to reason. And a lot of times we're not pushed to do that. If you have a friend who gives you feedback, that's typical. One, it's okay to agree to disagree. It's okay to say okay. I mean, I don't see that. I really don't. But I hear you. I do. I really. I hear you. It's okay. It's okay. Number two, to take time to process. I think a lot of pressure comes from feeling like you have to respond right now and you have to know the right thing to say. It's okay sometimes to say, okay, well, I didn't know you felt that way, and I gotta Be honest with you. I think I need some time to process how I feel before I even respond to you. And give yourself a break. Give yourself a week to, like, process those feelings, because the first thing out of your mouth might be something you regret or that you can't totally commit to later. So it's okay to ask for time to process. But if you do sense that, generally you have a friend who is telling you, quote, unquote, constructive criticism, but the objective is to humble you, I would understand if you didn't feel emotionally safe there, to shine and to show up as your full self.

And I think sometimes people mix these two intentions up that they're like, I'm trying to humble you because I care about you. And it's like, well, which one? Which one is it? You know? Or, I'm here to be your mirror because no one else can. And I think sometimes we enter that tricky territory of, like, are you being my coach or my friend? And I see this happen to, you know, a lot of my friends. We actually are coaches. Like, that's what we do. And with one of my friends, we ask each other, like, are we in the container? And that's kind of like the question of, okay, we're stepping into. I'm going to be asking you questions that are a little bit more coaching questions rather than just, like, showing up as your friend. And so we kind of ask each other for that. So what would you do if someone is like, you know what, Danielle, I'm going to be the mirror for you because no one else is. I think you're X, Y, Z, and they have this feedback for you that kind of was unsolicited. How would you respond in this?

Yeah, that's tricky. And I was going to ask you, you know, what your experience is of having a circle of people who do guide and coach and what that means as a friend when it's like, oh, I don't want to be coached. I just need you to, like, love on me right now. You know, I don't want to be pointed and challenged. Yeah, it's tricky if you have someone who is telling you things and you didn't ask. I just kind of would go back to what I said before about, like, asking them. Oh, okay. You know, so something's going on where you feel the need to. To share that. Like, you feel prompted and compelled to express that. What's going on? And asking him, like, where did that come from? Especially if it's unsolicited. And I really just enjoy the main strategy of making people explicitly say out of their mouth what the point was. And if you don't trust the reason that they offer you, oh, I'm just trying to be a mirror. I'm just trying to be helpful. Sometimes we don't even have to express. If you feel like you've seen enough evidence over time that this person secretly takes delight in telling you things that are not helpful, like, you can't take that feedback and actually grow with it. It was meant to kind of chip away and bring you down a notch. Then at some point, you might find that it's not fruitful to keep, like, contending with them. And that might be something where you have three options. One, you reduce the frequency with which you see this person. Because I've noticed that some friendships can survive if they're in lesser doses. So the frequency. Your second option is recategorization, where you think to your mind, okay, I've been having her in, like, the top number one shelf of friendship in my mind. I don't think I can do that anymore because I'm seeing I can't bring her these things. But, man, I love brainstorming with her as, like, an entrepreneur friend. I think I'm gonna have to take her off shelf number one and just reserve her as my fun business friend on shelf number three and no longer bring her these things because we're not safe here. Or three, you know, withdraw from the friendship completely. If for some reason you feel like it's severe enough that you are really being, like, tainted in some way by consistently being her company, so, you know, you have options. I know we tend to go from, like, stay besties or cut her off, but there are some things in the middle. There are some options that make it so that if her friendship does add value to your life, you can still sustain it. But if you find that you have to shrink yourself to be accepted here, I think that points to something more important.

Yes, I love that. Of looking at the intentions. And maybe it's not an all or nothing, but it's just a recategorization. And. Yeah, your question about what is it like to be friends with everyone who's a coach or a guide? I think what happens often in these circles is there's an element of competition that I've noticed of. How's your coaching practice going? Oh, you did a launch like this and a kind of looking at people sometimes of like, what can you do for me? Like, are we gonna collab? Are we gonna be on each other's podcasts? Are we gonna this. So it's like either like they're interested in you because of the opportunity that you provide. Like I, it's sometimes hard for me too because when I meet friends, they're like, oh, you have a podcast. And then they kind of start pitching themselves to me to be on the podcast. So it's like this sort of like, do you wanna be my friend or do you wanna use my platform? And, and then I, I just see this happen a lot in the coaching world. So there is that element of competition and also an element of hierarchy too. Of like, we are the seven figure coaches, we are the six figure coaches, we are that. And it's this interesting hierarchy of. And I understand it's like, why are celebrities friends with other celebrities? It's like only those types of people can understand their types of problems. So I get how business owners want to be friends with people who have similar business models as them and structures. But it can definitely feel clicky and hierarchical. Especially when I used to live in LA and like everyone was in that space. It was very focused on getting into certain friend groups.

That is so interesting to me. I've had a couple of clients who are, I mean, first I'll say, that's so tricky. And I have a heart for what you just shared because you do want to be able to bring your troubles to your friends without questioning. Well, hold on a second. Are you going to use this information in some kind of way or are you just like hearing my heart right now and you want to be here for me, the woman? And it's hard sometimes when you mentally have to do the labor of like, okay, hold on, let me differentiate. Am I safe here? So I feel free there for sure. It's funny because a lot of times I think when people hear of a friendship coach, they assume that the kind of person hiring me would be like a very socially awkward wallflower with no friends. And it's mostly high achieving, charismatic, successful women who say exactly what you just said. I'm in these spaces, I have friends galore, but I don't know, I don't trust some of them. I think I need to do a friendship pruning or I'm so obsessed with my job that I turn around, I notice I don't even have friends because I'm so career driven. And so it's mostly charismatic women who are trying to figure out how to continue to elevate and thrive in soil that is conducive to their growth and not trying to bring them down. And I Think with women. I know you cannot have a conversation about female friendship without talking about competition. It's tricky because what we said earlier, woman to woman, I'm using you as a model of. Of, like, how we navigate this world. Like, you know, what it's like to be a woman navigating this world. And just because of that alone, I feel connected to you. And I do think we use. We watch each other to determine standards. You know, like, maybe I do admire, like, man, I love the way she dresses me, and I love the way she carries herself. And so we do kind of measure against each other to know, like, okay, how is she achieving womanhood? How is she walking in her womanhood and femininity? And I might be learning from that. I might be attracted to that because I. I want to be like that, too, in some ways. And you're a model for me, so I think there's so much of that, but I totally see how it gets blurry sometimes. And now I feel like I can't shine unless, you know, you're shining. It takes away from my shine instead of seeing it as, like, a model or being able to genuinely be. Be thrilled for you. And so it becomes kind of tricky. One suggestion I can give is, you know, if you feel like you're meeting a new friend, she keeps bringing up the business stuff, you know, to sometimes even say with the smile, like, okay, you know what? I feel like I want to take my coach's hat off with you and just like, can we just be. No coaching stuff. I need a break, girl. You know, so I'm. I'm joking, but I'm also sussing out from the beginning. Would you be interested in maintaining a friendship with me if I am not talking to you about my games this month and my podcast guests and the money and the. Could you still enjoy me? Would you be able to go to lunch if we didn't take pictures and we didn't do video of us going to lunch? Would you be content with that? Because that right there, if you'd feel like, man, I really want to get a picture together of us at lunch, why? So I like to kind of ask those questions in the beginning to suss out, oh, you're here for me because you think I'm funny or because we have a lot in common and you enjoy talking to me. But, you know, that could be one little tester in the beginning to see if somebody's interested in getting to know you because of your light. There's something intriguing about you, and they want to just like, gradually unfold more and more about who you are as a person and to build something meaningful together, as opposed to somebody who sees an opportunity, social mobility through you, as opposed to someone who sees you as a access to resources. And so kind of being observant in the beginning stages might be a little helpful to ensure that you can relax into being your full self without wondering if it's going to be weaponized or leveraged for something impure.

That's such great advice. And I've noticed too, that when we go on an entrepreneurial journey, it's so much of our lives. So we want to make other friends who are also entrepreneurs and we want to talk about those things. And a lot of friendship groups, I've noticed, circle around like a mastermind that we like get together to mastermind to talk about our ideas and then what I think. And not just for myself, but for everyone. I noticed in that it was a little bit, bit tricky to know, like, are we actually friends or is this friendship based off of talking about our business? Like, if our businesses weren't there, would we all be friends? And I think that what you suggested of, you know, talking about something besides business and seeing if they're still interested. And the sad thing is, is like, I know and, and most of these circles I'm no longer part of. Cause I don't live in LA anymore. But I know at that time, if I just showed up because once I was in a mastermind circle and they're like, okay, what's your business thing? I'm like, like, I want a DJ and like, host Spence. And they never invited me back to the mastermind, so it showed me because I wasn't giving them what they wanted of like the numbers and the business and this and that. It was, it was no longer of value for them in that way. And like, and I think that's okay too. They were pretty clear of we're bringing women together so we can be in business talking about business together. And, and that was their expectation. And at least they were kind of upfront with us.

Yeah, yeah. And you know, maybe that exercise we talked about earlier with like the I am statements, to your point. I know some of us, we love our business, like, that's our baby. We're. We're up at night thinking of ideas and jotting in our notes app before we forget, you know, we're obsessed and I get it, but maybe that's where some of us, if we want more meaningful relationships is to answer those questions. I am blank I am blank. Because what else are you other than coach, guide, entrepreneur? Because have you done anything to nurture that? Are you occupying spaces where that aspect of your identity can thrive? You know, so maybe if you love to dance, are you going to dance classes? And we're not even talking business. People don't even know what you do. That way, you're kind of nurturing all the parts of yourself that make you who you are, as opposed to always leading with coaching the business and things like that. And so, you know, for some of us, that might help us to enjoy more satisfactory friendships if they're not necessarily predicated on what we can offer from a professional standpoint.

Mm. So good. So I wanna talk about something you said about a friendship algorithm. What is a friendship algorithm?

That I definitely got from Dr. Marissa Frankel. She's the author of the book Platonic and just became a New York Times bestseller. So she's. She's doing really well. And she's so. I admire this woman's knowledge so much. And she kind of talks about how through life and your childhood and how you go through certain experiences is you design a certain algorithm. So kind of like how, you know, when you're on social media, you like enough of the same types of things, you're training it, oh, this is what you like, this is what you do. So this is what I'll show you more of. And so how are you operating in your friendships because of maybe things you've. You've done in the past or you've experienced in the past? And how does that continually shape what you experience moving forward? For some of us, do we need to change our algorithm? Become intentional about what we're pursuing, about the people we entertain? And how can that give us more authority in shaping the kinds of friendships that we enjoy?

I relate to being in a stage in my life when literally I had to change my algorithm like, 180 degrees. You know, like both, like, literal. My algorithm on Instagram, because it was all, like, food stuff. But then also, that time of my life, I had to go through a massive friendship change because, you know, I was. I was changing who I am. So sometimes it's like. Like, you gotta unfollow all the old friends, all the old accounts, and, like, be like, who is this new version of me and what is on their algorithm? And then sometimes it's like the little tweaks, the reorganization. Do you suggest to people to actually write out, like, the tiers of my friends, like, these are my inner circle, these are my close Friends. These are my acquaintances, these are my once a year friends. And like, how would you label that?

You know what's funny is if you asked me that like three years ago, I'd be like, like, no, don't write down your friends. Like your friends. Now that I've seen like the research and I talk to women every week, I'm like, oh my God, yes, yes, do that. Here's why. There is a concept known as Dunbar's number. And the idea is that you can only cognitively maintain 150 social connections. So you might have a million followers, but in your brain, I mean, it hasn't evolved that much.

And that includes like celebrities you follow, influencers.

No, we're talking about like people who like, we have this like more personal connection with. So like, even if it's from like my super, super, super close friends to the barista I see like three times a week, or like my boyfriend's cousin, like people in my mind too, like, I know 150, right? So if you imagine that as like a really large circle, 150, and then smaller and smaller concentric circles inside of that to represent a closer range together, but also like fewer people, then when we get to the smallest number in the middle, the number is five. The idea is that your brain can only handle five super close relationships, which kind of makes sense when we think about what goes into cultivating super close friendships. Time, energy, you're remembering things about them, you're showing up. That's a lot. But a lot of us want to go wide instead of going deep and are wondering why we're unsatisfied. So ironically, you would think that I'd be more concerned about introverts saying, like, I don't know if I have fulfilling friendships because they're like awkward and shy is the, is the stereotype we put on them. I actually get more on high alert for extroverts bragging about all the people they know because it's not possible to fill up 20 buckets and maintain something close with 20 people. It's just not because you have a limited amount of time and energy. And so your tight, tight, tight circle. Who would those people be? And get this, they argue that, you know, if you have room for five, that once you have a romantic partner, that person takes up two of the five spaces because of what's required to invest in.

Do your parents count? Like a parent or sibling?

You know what I would argue? Yes, because I know we're saying like friends, but like people who are the closest in Your life will you pour into right now? Here's the thing is, outside of that circle, the number is 10 to 15 of what we call weak ties, like loose ties. So people who maybe you're not super close with, but you enjoy them well enough, and you guys hang out and they definitely offer value in your life, you need them, too. Because I do hear people say, like, you know what? I just need my one or two ride or dies, and I'm good. And I understand what they're saying, but no, you need other people, kind of like fringe friends as well, that I refer to as. Because they offer value as well. There's research that shows that engaging with your fringe friends boosts your mood. Like talking to a girl. We're not super close, but I really like her. That boosts my mood for the day. It's also that they found that you're more likely to find a new job opportunity through somebody in your fringe friends tier because they also have their foot in a circle that's different from you. So me and all my tight friends, we probably run in the same circle. We know the same things, we have access to the same resources. But for somebody who's not as close to, who also kind of dips in other spaces, she has access kind of to another world that she brings into my life. So she offers me a set of new things that my tight circle can't because we're so on the same wavelength. And so that's why they said they were so concerned about our friendships during the pandemic, because we lost a lot of our weak ties and we need them, too. And so when it comes to writing down your friends, I do encourage women who are like your three to five women. If I have, you know, I often hear women say, like, gosh, I don't even have that many. You know, what does that say about me? I don't have three to five. Well, put on the list. Women who you intentionally are curious about. Like, you like her. You've had some exchanges and you'd like to deepen things with her, put her on the list, and then put that somewhere visible. Because what's going to happen is you're going to get so caught up in work and maintaining your insta and doing all the things that you don't feel close to anybody because you're trying to be close with everybody and check off coffee with all these people and still feel like you are not experiencing platonic intimacy with anybody. Well, it's because you have a limited number of hours you need to Use them strategically. So, yes, go to coffee with one of the French friends and have a good time. But you really need to prioritize your 3 to 5 if you want depth instead of being so concerned with being networky with. With 40 people. It's. I mean, it just. It's just numbers. It's just math. I'll wrap with this. Friendship expert Shasta Nelson says that you need three things to have depth in your relationships. Positivity, consistency, and vulnerability. And you cannot do that with everyone. You just can't. And so writing down those five women who you're like, I want to be intentional about pursuing them, loving on them, asking, what's going on in your life, share of myself with them. I want to be intentional about doing that. She tells me she has a doctor's appointment next week. I'm putting it in my calendar to remind future me to ask her, girl, how was your appointment? To leave an emotional impression on her. Like, wow, she. She remembered. She cares. Because I want to nurture a bond with you, because I know I can't duplicate this 10 or 20 times. You matter to me. Now. If over time that circle changes because it's a little fluid, that's okay. That's to be expected. In fact, because research says that we replace half of our friends every seven years. I know seven has a very symbolic, you know, kind of meaning, but you're going to have a natural friendship pruning every now and then as you grow in these cycles. I mean, it just makes sense that not everyone can come along for the ride. And so that's normal for your circle to change. But if you want to have more depth in your friendships, I think women should take your advice. Write those women down, those names, put them somewhere where you can see them to remind you to be intentional about pursuing depth with women who add value in your life. It's not just going to happen by serendipity. It happens because you are intentional.

Positivity, consistency, and vulnerability. Those were the three things for depth, right?

And I like to say, like, what can be the tangible thing that you do to. To nurture each one of those? That's an exercise video. So positivity. No, we're not saying toxic positivity. And like, oh, everything will work out. But, like, you know, there's research that says successful relationships have a positivity to negativity ratio of 5 to 1. This was research conducted by the Gottmans. Okay? So if. When I take an aerial view, like in a helicopter, and I look down at my Friendships. How many of our interactions are full of us constantly complaining, venting, dumping all the time? Now, yes, one benefit of friendship is I can take my burdens to you and just run my mouth and pop off. Sometimes that's a benefit. But if that is the whole of our relationship, I mean, it's going to impact how close we feel to each other because I'm using you to just get out all my stuff, my nasty stuff. So 5 to 5 or 5 to 1, what's your positivity ratio looking like? And what one thing can you do to infuse positivity with the ladies on the list? Three to five. What can I do to have some positivity with her? The next thing is consistency. I have a whole tyree prepared on low maintenance friendships. I feel some kind of way. But how can you see somebody with regularity to get a rhythm with them? And I know I'm going to see you or talk to you. I like to suggest here a friendship ritual. I know it sounds kind of formal, but like, how can I get guaranteed time with you? So I know I'm going to see you. Maybe we go to trivia night once a month. Maybe we have a check and phone call every Friday. That's our thing for 30 minutes. But consistency and finally vulnerability. That doesn't mean I'm dumping all my trauma on you the first time I met you or that's not what we mean. But the best way I've heard vulnerability described is I feel comfortable taking a risk being rejected. There's a chance I'll be rejected here, but I'm gonna say it anyway. I'm gonna offer it anyway. I'm gonna share it anyway. Can I do that here? Because we do like people after they're vulnerable with us research shows, and it does bring us closer together. So you can't trust that with everybody. But who are those three to five that you can start offering a little more and more and more vulnerability to create depth in your. In your friendship? So when you see that it requires those three things, it shows you, ooh, I need to get intentional about who my three to five are that I'm gonna do that with. Mm.

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Move through that a hundred percent. And, and there's research that shows that oftentimes plus the platonic intimacy you're looking for is on the other side of a little tension, not unnecessary tension. But how else do I learn that I can trust you? How else do I learn that we can problem solve together until we have like these moments of tension that we work through? And now on the other side, I'm like, man, okay, I understand her better. Oh, wow, I really see her now. I see her right? Or I have more respect for her because she works through that with me, you know, and she apologized, I have more respect, or she forgave me, I have more respect for her, you know, so sometimes that closest we're looking for is on the other side of a little conflict resolution.

And sometimes too, that conflict does lead to the end of the friendship. You know, that's true too. I've had that happen. And then it's just like, you just have to accept that truth, and you can't force someone to be your friend. And I think it's really tough because that. That core wound for so many of us is that abandonment wound of if I speak my truth, I might be abandoned. And sometimes that does happen. But that just means the friendship would. Was not true to begin with, or at least things changed and now it's no longer in alignment.

Yeah. So how were you able to move on after you've had these separations with friends?

Yeah, I think for me, at the beginning it's so hard, like, because I'm tend to be more on the anxious side. So I wanna fix the problem. I wanna talk about, I wanna get on the phone, I wanna know how you're feeling. Like, that's how I process things more. And this other friend was more on the opposite side, didn't wanna talk. So for me, I'm like, that first week of, like, not talking, I'm like, writing a million notes that I, like, want to send her, and I'm like, don't send, like, honor her space. Honor her space. And at the end of the one week, she decided that this friendship is. This was the same triage friendship. And she said that this friendship is no longer serving her. And she was in a new relationship and she had moved and she was just in a different space of her life. And the friendship just felt like too much work for her because we were voice noting a lot and some people, you know, voice. We were voicing each other every day. What was going on, what was happening? We were giving each other advice and she's like, I can't be in this container anymore. So it definitely felt like a breakup, you know, like, I was rejected. Why doesn't this person love me? Which makes me, you know, you go through all the emotions. Like, you go through the anger, you go through the grief, you go through the sadness especially. This was someone that was in my life very closely for five years. And then eventually the acceptance and, you know, like, as you're saying this, I'm like, oh, like, maybe I should try to rekindle it based off of what you've shared. But yeah, how do you know when to just be like, you know what? That just served its time versus, like, oh, maybe we did prematurely end the friendship.

Yeah. Oh, that's a great question. I think the pandemic especially had a lot of us thinking back to friendships, like, oh, my God, like, should I revive that? A couple things, you know, one, if the friendship was toxic in any kind of way and you made the decision to end it because it was so dysfunctional, it's going to be natural sometimes to miss a person who was so integrated into your life. But ask yourself if you're reaching out because you miss them, because the two don't necessarily go together. You can miss them because they were so important to you. But also say, I don't think it's good for me that I revive that and breathe new life into that. We ended it for a reason. So, you know, are you acting out of a sense of nostalgia or yearning for the past? That's one thing to consider. Um, I think you should also consider how much time has passed, because one very real possibility is that the person you're trying to reconnect with is not the same person you knew seven years ago. Like, so we, I mean, we all know it. If you look back at 5 year ago, 7 year ago, you, you know, are you the same or have you shifted in some ways? So the anticipation that you'll be meeting or reuniting with old her, you know, it's possible she's not her anymore. And if you have a reason for reviving it, I think, you know, you can reach out and say with very clear purposes what it is you want. I think a lot of times when we do rekindle, we're like, hey, I was thinking of you. Thought I'd reach out. And the other person on the receiving end is going to inevitably wonder, what do you want? Are you trying to say something to me? Do you want something from me? So if you do decide to rekindle, I think you need to think about the other person and be as clear as possible about your objectives to remove any ambiguity. So whether it's, you know, I know it's been a while, but I never got to say my piece. And I need you to know that I felt. And if you respond, great. But I needed you to know that that's one thing, that you might need foreclosure. Okay. It might be because you do want to open it back up and you tell her, hey, I've been thinking about you a lot. You've been on my mind. I wanted to check in and see if you're well, you know, how you're doing, and be prepared for all the possibilities. So I always say that if you don't think that you'd be mentally or emotionally okay with all of the possibilities, maybe hold off because it's possible that she, one, does not respond to you. Is that going to drive you nuts? Two, it's possible that she does not respond to you. Kindly. Can you handle it? And in three, yeah, sure. It's possible that she's like, wow, I've actually been thinking of you too, and I'd love to get together, but if you don't think you're emotionally or mentally ready to absorb all those possibilities, then maybe hold off because you cannot control another person's actions.

Yes, I. I love that point of that person. How are they going to perceive you reaching out of like, hmm, this person texts me out of the blue, like, what do they want? You know, and being very clear with that. And yeah, I think sometimes the. The saying your peace part, like, sometimes you just write a letter and burn it, you know, it doesn't need to be. It doesn't need to be said to that person. And then sometimes it does, and it can be a huge clearing and we can only know that from each situation. So thank you for sharing that. And my last question for you is, how do we find new aligned friends? You know, even for myself, I moved to Miami less than two years ago and. And I have a few friends here, but definitely not as much as in la. And I think for a lot of us, we're at home, we work from home. And especially if you have, like, certain interests, you know, and you're an entrepreneur, for example, it can be hard to just, like, go to the mall and, like, talk to anyone. So. So what is your advice for finding friends?

Yeah, so I'm going to give you a quick punch list of all the different ways. The first is very unsexy, but it's to dig back in the friendship archives, because a lot of times we say, I want to make new friends, and we use that synonymously with I want to meet new people. And the two are not the same. So making friends, I always say, is. It refers to the art of cultivating something meaningful with another person. Who said that? Has to start from scratch all the time. A lot of times, a lot of our friends, they serve other roles in our lives. Maybe it's also the woman we see weekly for our hairstyling. Maybe it's also the barista we see or our friend's cousin who we see all the time when we all get together. So are there people in your life who you already know and you enjoy well enough, but you've written them off as a potential friend for whatever reason? And what would possibly change about the landscape of your future together. If you started to entertain them as a possible friend, would there be something there? So maybe look at who's already in your network, then reach back to people who you had one interaction with and it went well, but you guys, like, never kept it going. If you're confident that you both shared an enjoyment of your interaction together, to reach out and say, oh, I saw this and I thought of you. You know, in that time we were in workout class together and just wanted to reach out and. And say, I hope you're well. You know, because we get busy. It's very possible they've been thinking of you too, or that they love a chance to reconnect and they're so relieved that you initiated it. So start with who you already know is the first thing. The second thing is to integrate routine into your life. That doesn't sound shiny, but, you know, a lot of us, we stay in the house all day, and then we go to a big event, and then we come back home, and then it's four more days before we go outside again. So how can you include routine into your life? That's why we feel like it was so much easier to make friends when we were younger, but it's really because we had opportunities for consistency. We saw the same faces all the time. Well, now that you're an adult, you're going to have to manufacture those opportunities for yourself because you no longer have that social infrastructure. So can I commit to working from the same coffee shop every Friday morning? Because we tend to be creatures of habit, so it's likely that there are other people who are going to be there every Friday morning. And now they become what we call familiar strangers. They're not totally strange to us. We kind of see them. I feel like we kind of get a head nod. I see you every week. And so now it becomes less intimidating to say hello or to ask you where you got your shoes or to borrow something from you, like a laptop charger or whatever. Because we see each other all the time here. You know, become a regular. If you go to the dog park, can you do it kind of around the same time? Because the same people come off, you know, after work with their dog. And now we're building consistency. There's research out of the University of Kansas that attempted to quantify how long it takes to make friends. They found that it takes 50 hours to make kind of like a really close associate, 90 hours to make a good friend, and 200 hours to make make a best friend. Now, sometimes people, like, lift Their eyebrow and suspicion, like wait 200 hours, you know. So I think it varies from person to person, but the key takeaway is the same. If you are trying to make friends, you're gonna have to invest time. You're gonna have to clock hours together. That's why so many of us make friends at work. We're together for 40 hours a week and they just become our work friends, become our besties, you know, so how can you manufacture that for yourself? Become a regular somewhere, do things with consistency. If you go to some kind of book club meeting or some kind of entrepreneur, whatever, can you commit to going for three months? And if you hate it, then, then don't go. Or three times and then don't go. But we go one time and we're like, I don't know, I didn't find my people here. I don't know, not going back. And so you don't have a chance to build any rapport with people there. You kind of went as a critic. You went to see if people come talk to you. You were on your phone half the time and then you're like, wasn't feeling and you leave. But if I commit to saying, you know what, I'm going to go every Thursday for three weeks before I quit on this. Now I have an opportunity to say to somebody, oh, yeah, you mentioned last week that your dog is sick. How are things going out? But I can build with you because I'm seeing you multiple times. That's one way to make friends, is just consistency. It's not sexy, but it works. Another is to talk to your super connector friends. These are people who love seeing like, oh my gosh, Danielle, you should meet my friend Tiffany. You guys would hit it off. Like those people, they don't have to be your friend, but somebody you know who has that spirit, why not text them or DM them and say something to the effect of, hey, I'm trying to get connected and I, I thought of you because you're always out and about and doing something cool. Do you know of anything around town that you feel like is worth checking out? You won't get your need met if you don't make your need known. So if you're hiding your secret desire for friends to yourself because you feel shame around wanting friends, you feel like it makes you look desperate and clingy so you're not going to tell anyone. How in the world do you expect to connect with people if you're scared to initiate and you don't want people to know? I Mean, come on. Every study we're looking at for the past couple years shows that we're lonelier than ever, most people. So it's likely that if you're in a room full of people, you're not the only one who's kind of desiring connections. They all are. So, yeah, there's a risk you're going to get rejected, but there's an equal risk you'll be accepted. And so you have to put yourself out there. You have to believe you have something to offer, and you have to just start by saying hello. I always say that friendship begins with rapport, and rapport begins with hello. But you're not just going to fall on friends if you won't go out there and connect with other people. And I think that might be kind of the beginning mindset to positioning yourself to create meaningful connections.

Such great advice. And I know we've all been there. We've gone to an event. We're like, I'm gonna go and make friends. And then we feel like, does everyone know each other already? They all seem to be talking. Like, I don't want to just, like, interrupt their conversation. So then we end up just standing there, being on our phone. And then someone's probably looking at us thinking the exact same thing of, oh, this person's on their phone. They're busy. Let me not go up to them. And that's why having spaces where people are just really. Because every time I've been in a conversation, even if it was like we were really in it and someone showed up, and it's always been welcome. Like, I've never felt like, oh, like, why is this person here? It's always been welcome. But for some reason, we feel like I'm going to interrupt their flow and be rejected or. Or whatever the story is. So I think it's so important to recognize, like, it always just. Even if you were in a conversation, a third person comes in, you just tell them, hey, we were just talking about this, and you bring them into the conversation. And sometimes the person kind of ends up more in a listening position, but sometimes they offer their feedback and you have an even more dynamic conversation. So I think that fear of just like, oh, well, everyone's busy or knows each other. We need to just move through that. And for me, a huge way of finding friends throughout my life has been through going to events. So, like, literally going on eventbrite.com and, like, searching different keywords of things I was interested in at the time, whether it was ecstatic dance or Shaman or whatever else, and going to these events and just meeting people that I would have never met had I not gone to this event and been around people who are interested in that same thing. Um, I'm in an improv class right now, and yes. And it's been, like, the highlight of my week every single week. I am obsessed with it. And now this improv crew has become my friend, and these are people that I normally would not have interacted with at all. Like, one guy's like an investment banker. Another guy works at Wendy's. Like, it is the most random crew of people, but we all come together and we are just laughing the whole time. And it feels so good to have these friends that we can send comedy skits to each other, and we're on this shared mission. So I think having going to an event and bonding over a shared interest is also such a great way of making friends.

I love that for you, and I so love that you just shared that, because I hope there's some listening who are like, wait, what? Because it does seem so random. But I love that you have the courage and intention to put yourself in a space where you can laugh, try something new, meet new people, is amazing. And for women especially, the number one thing they found that is a predictor of platonic intimacy for women is laughter. So finding a woman who you can, like, laugh with right off of the bat, you're positioning yourself to be inclined to be super close to her. So I think the improv thing might be a great idea because it kind of fast tracks you to feeling comfortable. Laughter, I mean, there's so much research on laughter is so important. So I love that you just like that you're having that experience. That's amazing. Between the banker and the Wendy's guy. Like, that's amazing.

Yeah. And because I. The reason why it came to be is because I noticed in my friendships, it's often like, you meet up for coffee. One person takes the turn of talking about all their problems, then the other person takes the turn talking about their problems, and you kind of leave feeling a little bit heavier. And especially for someone like me, who's an empath and a coach is like, then I'm, like, thinking about their problems. I'm trying to problem solve for them. And. And I'm like, sure. Like, sometimes you just need to talk about your shit and be heard, and that's an important part of friendship. But I'm like, I also want to be creating things with my friends. So I started to just get people together. And be like, we're going to paint pumpkins and this is what we're doing. Or we're going to make gingerbread houses, or we're going to do improv skits. And every time I would do improv skits, like, it would just bring the group together in just such a beautiful way and connect us with our inner child. And. And we were all just laughing, and it made me connect with people in a way that just, like, talking about, like, what's reporting. I feel like so much of friendship is just like, I'm gonna report to you, you're gonna report to me. Rather than, like, playing the way that we used to have playdates with people. So I was like. Kept trying to get people together to do improv, and I'm like, you know what? Let me just sign up for an improv class where, like, this is the intention of the people rather than me trying to, like, turn people into my improv friends. And it has been a great decision.

Okay, that's amazing. And I. I've heard a couple people now talk about improv, and I've even recommended it to you need to do it. I'm gonna do it. That's so inspiring. I love it.

Any, like, local comedy club where you live will probably have an improv class, but I just found it on Eventbrite. First, I went to an improv show, and then at the show, they said that they had classes, and I was like. And at first, I was like, three hours a week. Like, no way I can commit to this. And, you know, all my stories were coming up, and now I'm like, I'm so grateful that I said yes to this, because not only just in friendships, but it's allowed me a new side of myself. And I feel like ultimately that's really what friendships are. You're really getting that mirror back of who you are.

That's so good. That's like a mic drop. Yes, absolutely. To everything you said, I love it.

Yeah. And another thing, too, is I've noticed sometimes people are, like, waiting for someone to make the initiative of, like, a group activity or something, like an arts project or a holiday thing. But for some people, it comes more naturally. To others, I will say some, like, I tend to be just that person. Maybe it's like my Capricorn in me, but every time I do it, everyone's like, thank you for just taking the initiative, for putting it together. And I think we're all just, like, waiting for those moments that you see on TikTok that you're like, wow, friends do that together. Like, I wish my friends did that. And it's like, be the friend who organizes it, because that's the only way you're gonna make it happen in your life.

That's so good. You know, I was actually thinking about that this morning. I know. You know, I'm a former high school teacher, and I taught, you know, 17 and 18 year old. And so it's funny because sometimes people ask me like, oh, do you find that, you know, women are like high schoolers and the drama? And I'm like, you know what? You know, the one way I found that adults are just like high schoolers is we're scared. That's how we are. Like children. We're still scared of putting ourselves out there, asking for help, telling somebody we like them. We're still terrified. And, you know, there's just so much to be said about initiating. You know, there's research that says we tend to underestimate how much people appreciate us reaching out to them. There's another research study that says we tend to underestimate how much people like us in the first interaction. It's called the liking gap. You know, so we'll meet someone, and then we don't want to initiate after because we're like, oh, she probably. I probably talks too much. I probably. And she walked away liking you just fine. So really, look at your assumptions of other people. I always ask clients, clients, who told you that? Like, you told you that, you know, so who told you she's probably too busy. She probably thinks I'm a little weird. She probably. You told you that. And so is there a chance that she is busy?

Sure.

But there is an equal chance that she's like, man, I'm so glad you reached out. And when it comes to initiating, I'll say this. Two things. One, it has to be a part of your identity. So instead of saying, man, I really want to reach out to this girl. But what if she says no? What if she. That's rooted in her reaction. It's very reactionary. Instead, tell yourself, timeout, I'm a connector. Like, that's who I am. I really value connecting with other people. That's me. And that way, when you initiate, it's an extension of who you are. It's not a performance you're doing. This is who you are. You wave first at people. You pick up the phone and say, hey, do you want to get wine tonight? That's who you are. As opposed to. It feels weird trying that on. I don't know if I'm that person. I don't know if I can do this. No. If you value connection, what behaviors are you doing that that are an extension of your beliefs and your values, and you just go for it. And the last thing I'll say is, you will not just initiate the beginning of a friendship. To keep a friendship going, Initiative maintains it. You will always be having to say, do you want to get together next week?

Week.

You might always have to initiate being the first to be a little open when you get together for coffee and you want to share something personal, but you're the. You're the first to go, you know? So the best friendships are made up of initiating. So don't start your friendship journey by waiting for others to come to you. There's a little bit of that. That's a little arrogant to think that you should show up in a room and not people are going to clamor to you, if I'm being honest. Okay. You have a part to play, too. And if you want to create and maintain better friendships with women, you better get comfortable with going first, because that might be exactly what you need to start enjoying the friendships that you deserve.

So good. I loved all of this. This is one of my favorite conversations ever. This had just so much wisdom. And I'm sure people are taking notes, and if not, re listen to this and take some notes and bookmark it for life, because we've literally gone through every situation pretty much that friends can move through. So thank you just for your responses and, like, how well thought out and innovative and fresh they are. Like, I just love listening to you talk. And I love having this kind of conversation because I think it's so needed. And we often just negate friendships and think, oh, like, that should just be the easy part of my life. And we don't recognize that. It also, like anything else, like your health, like your relationships, like your career, it also requires work and effort and diving into. So thank you for stepping into your dharma, your soul's purpose of being a friendship coach and making this accessible for more people. And I know you have a book coming out, too, so can you tell us about that and what you're working on?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I have a book coming out. It's not until 2024. My editors just told me. I was like, oh, my God, I'll be like, 77.

They. They wait so long. It's like, I'm learning.

I'm learning. Yeah. So that the book is tentatively titled Fighting for our Friendship, the Art and function of conflict and female friendship. And my goal with the book is not just to tell you, if this situation happens, do this. If this happens, do this. Even though there's going to be a lot of that on there. A whole guide to the top 14 conflicts I've seen between women. But I want to answer, why does that keep happening? Why do I feel like she betrayed me? Why do I feel like I bond with this happening? And I need this to feel connected to somebody. Why? So I'm not just telling you what to say in certain situations, but I want to explain to you how the whole operation works, the mechanics of female friendships so it can inform how you engage with other women. And so I'm so excited about it. I hope that it's helpful. I've learned so much. I've been humbled in doing research. My friendships are better. Surprisingly, my marriage is better since I started doing this work because I've noticed that friendship is at the heart of romantic relationships. You have to be my friend, you know, and so I. I've just. I'm a better person for it. I'm so honored to have women trust me with some of their most personal, intimate, you know, women issues is just such a. Is such a blessing. And. And I'm honored to do this work. And so, you know, everything lives at better female friendships dot com. But. But I'm so grateful to you for carving out space to. To have this conversation.

Well, thank you again. We will link to your website below. I know you do different coaching with people. I think that this is such an important area to really dive into. So for really focusing on it. And your TikTok is amazing. So everyone go find her on TikTok. I will share that link below as well.

Thank you so much for having me.

I am obsessed with that conversation. I actually went on for another hour just talking to her off the air because it was so good and it's so needed to have conversations about female friendships because it's like water, you know, without them, you feel dehydrated, you feel parched. But sometimes that water got muck in it and you're drinking it and you're wondering why you're not feeling more hydrated. And it's because that water got muck and you had to filter it out for the water to actually be genuinely hydrating. And it's the same thing with female friendships. You might have friends in your life, but they're not really nourishing your soul. So you're like, how come I'm spending time with these people. But I feel worse after. And that just means that that friendship is either not in alignment for you or there's there's work to do there. Because it's like imagine you left your relationship every time things got hard. You would never make it to the most beautiful parts of your relationship. And I agree with Danielle that sometimes we do prematurely throw friendships away when it could have just taken more deepening in that moment. And sometimes we hold on for friendships too long when that was us, like 10 versions of ourselves ago. And there's so many nuances there. So that's why I created Rose Gold Goddesses, my sacred feminine mystery school. We have a thousand members who are all here for the joyful, divine, feminine approach to spirituality that is all about the heart. We have community support circles, weekly workshops, monthly Goddess circles, and so much more. So if you're interested and curious, I'll put the wait list for that beneath and that's such a powerful way to make friends. We also have an annual retreat that you can go on and in that annual retreat, we all get to meet each other in person, be in circle, really talk and share. And it's so deeply beautiful. So be sure to head over to the Show Notes below to check that out. And I'm so grateful for you to be here. And if you love this episode, I would love for you to leave a review. And as a free G gift, I will send you my Womb Meditation. So this is a meditation for you to connect to your sacred womb space to hear her answers because the feminine approach to spirituality is about connecting into the body and not leaving the body and being in the mind. So you can leave a review over on the iTunes store, take a screenshot of it and email it over to me@saharaiam sahararrose.com you can find that link also in the Show Notes and I'll email you my free Womb Meditation. Thank you so much for tuning in. Please be sure to subscribe and I'll see you on the next one. Namaste.

Jam.