491: How To Have Amazing Communication + Chemistry In Relationships with Rachel Pringle Urb + Johann Urb

Do you think that you can be in a relationship with someone who's just maybe this lifetime for them is not about self awareness?

You know, I think that it's like two parts. One is if you are desiring your partner to take a journey, take it first and be the embodied reflection of that. So when you are having these visceral shifts and changes, they get curious and want to. And without like nagging or being like, you need to do this, but inviting them into that and then, you know, to be completely honest, if they don't want to go down that journey and that's what you're wanting, it's likely not the right person for you. Because really, for, for Johan and I like the basis, the foundation of our relationship is our practice. We've been doing that from the first moment that we met. And it is our emotional touchstone through literally everything. And we are so devoted to expansion, and that's what keeps it so exciting and so passion filled and so exhilarating. It is not never boring. I've never been bored.

Hi, I'm Sahara Rose, and welcome to the Highest Self Podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest evolvement. This podcast was created seven years ago because I wanted to have deep, spiritual conversations that were also grounded, modern, fun, real, relatable, juicy, sexy. And what I love about this podcast is I get to talk with some of my closest friends, my biggest teachers, people who have really inspired me and made a difference in my life, and bring them to you on the podcast. And today's episode is one of those. So Rachel and Johan have been my dear friends for many years now, and I've gotten to know both of them individually, and they're a married couple who has devoted their life to helping couples have more intimate, juicy, but also really rich and meaningful relationships that value integrity, conversation, and diving into the shadows and depths that most of us don't go into in relationship because we're so afraid of the abandonment that might happen on the other side. So in this conversation, we really go in. In their personal story of how their marriage all almost ended because of a situation that they'll go into in this episode. I don't want to ruin it for you, but a lot of you are going to relate because I pulled on my Instagram story, how many of you guys are experiencing a heartbreak right now, and 70% of you said yes. So I feel there has been a huge shift in the collective in the past few months, especially since November or so of last year, of a lot of couples separating, divorcing, myself included, in December. And, you know, it's really a renaissance, I believe, of relationships because the old models are not working for us anymore. You know, in California, the rate of divorce is 70% as well. So marriage, in the way that we've known it before, as a construct of you and I together forever, without really talking about what that means, is failing us. So how do we, as spiritual people that are constantly evolving and changing and growing and diving deeper into ourselves and wanting to live in full truth and expression and freedom and liberation, but also have a partner to move through these stages of life, life with, how do we stay in relationship? And that is what today's episode is all about. So we really go into their relationship as an example, and I ask the questions that I have that I know you're going to have as well, of how did you navigate through that? How did you know you were meant to stay together? What do you do if your partner is not on a spiritual journey? And what do you see for yourselves in relationship, moving forward with all of the shifts that are happening in the world? So this is one you're definitely going to want to re listen to. And without further ado, let's welcome Rachel and Johan on the Highest Self podcast. So likely you are that friend that people come to whenever they have a problem. Maybe you love holding space for people asking really juicy conversations and actively listening to their answers. So you know that there is a career path out there for you, something around the realms of spirituality and coaching, but you don't really know what that looks like. So I have actually created a quiz on what type of spiritual life coach are you? Are you the intuitive, transformational, or empathetic coach? So you can head over to the Show Notes to take that quiz right now, and I actually show you how to make that your career in my school, the Dharma Coaching Institute. So head over to the Show Notes to take the quiz, learn more about what type of coach you are, and then actually take action on making this your career path this year. Welcome, Rachel and Johan, to the Highest Self podcast. I am so excited to have you here today. We've spent so many hours diving into relationships and these really deep conversations. So before we get into all of that, I'd love to ask you, Rachel, what makes you your Highest Self?

The first thing that comes to mind is my willingness to meet the depths of my shadow. Yeah.

And that journey, I would say, similarly, a willingness to die a death of what is no longer serving me and to be in discovery of what is, and also for me, a big one really was realizing that God is a woman.

You believe God is a woman now? I feel it after midnight.

And I know that for a lot of folks out there, that's gonna really rub you in an interesting way, and it certainly did me. And it's that interesting edge again of this idea that God is a white dude with a beard who's angry and broke, but also loves you. And that's such a big thing for folks to really understand that God or the divine is Goddess is so much more than what we've thought or have given ourselves opportunity to sort of get curious about. And when we do, the magic is just endless.

100% agreed. And it's interesting you both mentioned shadow and death, because those have been the biggest teachers in my path as well, especially the past few months navigating the divorce portal, which you guys have been incredible support systems through. So you guys aren't your average couple. You've been together for 10 years, which in the spiritual community I would say is like 100 years. I think, like, one year is actually like 10 years when you're both on a growth journey because you change and you die so much and to keep growing and elevating together. So 10 years together, you're married, and I was reading your post that you feel more intimate than ever before, more connected, sexier than ever before. And those of you who aren't watching on video, I recommend watching this on video because y', all, they're the fucking hottest couple. Like, both of them on their own, like 10 on 10, but together, it's a whole other level. So please go on Spotify and YouTube to just witness the magic. And it's so beautiful to see because you guys are willing to go places that no couple I know would go and continue to meet each other there and meet each other there and choose each other again and again. So can you please share the story of your relationship and how you got to this place?

You know, the first thing that comes to mind, and this happened very early on in our relationship, was exactly that. And actually it was Johan who brought it to the table, which was, you know, he was like, I don't want a normal relationship. I don't want this traditional idea of what relationship or marriage looks like. And he really made the bold statement of saying, I want us to choose this every day. And that's the basis of our relationship. And I think in that choosing, it's sort of like, faced us directly with what's needed in order to choose that boldly over and over again. And the fact that we're both like deeply growth mindset human beings, but it's been a wild, wild ride. But we're both completely committed and devoted to that in our own path, separately. And it's one of the reasons why we get along so well, because we both have that at the forefront of our desire for this type of life.

Yeah. To what Rachel said, you know, most folks don't realize that we're all running a program or we all have a program of what we think a relationship is and isn't, who we are and aren't. And so. And it's modeled off of something, right? So we're modeling our parents or friends or our culture or religion, and we don't necessarily know or aware of that. We can create our own program. And from the beginning, we, you know, and again we all, we each of us came in with our own program and we were like, why don't we just being discovery of what it would look like if we created our own program, which we have. And for all of our clients and our students, we say the same. It's like, guys, you get to make your own os. Like, you decide what feels good, how you want to grow, where the boundaries are, how you want to explore all this. When we try to fit into a box that somebody else has created, or our perspective or understanding of that box, it's so limiting. And so our willingness and certainly continued commitment to, like I said earlier, to die of death often of those beliefs, of those patterns, because nothing in the universe is static. And when we disassociate with, oh, well, this is what a marriage looks like and doesn't look like, Right? You certainly don't do this and this and you have to do that and that, and you take all that away and say, how can we create the most amount of aliveness and safety and connection and sensuality and intimacy right here, here? And when that's the os, that's what you operate out of, it's infinitely enlivening and exciting and you will come up against, you know, often the opportunity to transform.

So what I noticed happened for myself, and I think for a lot of people, when you enter into a relationship, you so badly want to please the other person that you end up just kind of agreeing with things for the sake of keeping the relationship because you're so afraid of that fear of abandonment, of, what if I say I want the relationship to be like this? And they're like, no. And then you, like, lose this beautiful Spark. And it's that, you know, that honeymoon, oxytoxin, sage, you're like, anything to keep this going. So first of all, when did you bring up having your own agreements in the relationship? And what did that conversation look like?

It was very, like, very early on. Like, from the very beginning. You know, Johan was very, like, expressed in not wanting a traditional. He'd also been married before, and I had. You know, it was my first real relationship. You know, I had dated maybe someone for six months, but before that, it was, like, fleeting. And I definitely had that program. I came in with that, and I'm grateful for it because it allowed me to have that journey of, like, people pleaser into this level of, like, deeply empowered. I think that he was there much earlier than I was. It took me a couple years to get to the place of being able to say what I really wanted, but I was still, like, bold. I was the first one who said, I love you, who asked to move in. You know, I'm. I'm the type of person that believes in going after what we want. You know, I'm. I'm a big personality. I'm an intense person. I want people to know that right from the beginning so that they can know what they're getting into versus, like, the playing of the game. So it worked always. But then, like, four years in is when we really started redefining, like, the. The deep gunk stuff and, like, reprogramming together.

Yeah, man, there's so much to cover and to go back, and I keep remembering iterations of ourselves and who we were. And, you know, for me, having been married before, freedom was such a huge thing. Right. And so from the very beginning, I was very honest with Rachel, and I was like, listen, I do not want to do the dance most people are doing. And I was like, you know, divorce rates are crazy. They're over 70%. And why is that? If it's this thing that everybody thinks that they want, you know, and the way that it's set up and to what you said, Sahara, it's like, you know, we oftentimes don't have the conversations that are the breakthrough, dying of death conversations because we're so afraid to lose the connection, and it'll destroy this image of who we are projecting thing, or oftentimes with this PR person that we're pretending to be versus sharing our deepest, darkest fears and secrets. And this is again, where conscious communication, what we call co. Devotional communication comes in. How can I speak to it so that it doesn't Fester. Because when it festers and it's living inside of you and you don't say it, you're on this automatic thing of thinking of this is how it's supposed to go. Yet a big, huge part of you is not expressed. And even if that thing is seemingly small and tiny, it holds so much power and it weighs way more than all this, like, airy fluff, you know, and this, it literally, like, will derail your direction and your ship and, like, sink your ship. And then you wonder, like, why people cheat or why people, you know, aren't being honest or fully forthcoming. And it's like, how can you have that conversation in the moment when it arises or shortly after and through that create trust and intimacy and connection. Without that, I think it's sadly all doomed to fail. And for us, we didn't have the hard, hard conversations till four years in when.

Which was after we were engaged.

Yeah. And oftentimes that's usually when it happens for a lot of our clients at least. It's like you commit, you're like, all right, we're engaged or we're married. And that's when it's like, ta da. The Pandora's box is like, right. You know, and so it's in a way, like, by design. And for us, it took some major, major upheavals falling in love with other people, you know, getting intimate with other people, allowing us just to be fully, fully confused and through that being fully, fully expressed. And it was in a way, like, we had the breakup conversation.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

You know, but we decided to stay together.

So I want to go into what happened in this four or five year mark, because we've had conversations around a lot of people in our shared community, spiritual community, I think, globally, are separating, divorcing, breaking up right now. And, you know, they say oftentimes in a relationship, the test is if, you know, one or both people fall in love or, you know, with someone else. And infidelity is a huge issue. But also I'm like, questioning monogamy and I'm questioning marriage and I'm questioning these constructs as well. So I'm curious if you guys would like to share a little bit about the situation and the new agreements that you created as a result of it.

Yeah, it was, you know, Johan went away to shoot a movie and fell in love with his co star. And, you know, sort of me being the scorpionic human that I am, like, now I know what a pivotal role I played in that because that gave me the permission to also then therefore open up and have my own experience with married couple. And it was just this. This massive explosion into like, what was in the underbelly the entire time. And I think that we. We stuck through it in such a. Like, when I think back on how we navigated that, I'm like, so in awe of how we did it because it was so devastating, especially because we had just gotten engaged and especially because boundaries and agreements were broken. You know, there were moments when both us did that. And it's almost like we needed to do that in order to shake up our entire world, our known universe, and therefore speak to what was shook up. And I think even more so, the thing I continuously get interested with is why. Why did we do that? What was the impetus behind it? And that I get so curious about. And that just led us into this. This depth of conversation, how we weren't feeling met into exactly what you just said, like, playing these roles of just trying to please each other and trying to keep in the sweet pocket of like, I'm gonna do anything I can to. To stay connected. And for both of us to feel what it was like to not be connected. I mean, I. For me, like, it was such an exhilarating moment of like, who am I outside of this relationship? And. And I'm so grateful. And it was like this surgeon of sexuality, of sensuality. And then from that space, I still wanted to be with him and vice versa. And it led us down this, like, really freaking crazy, interesting path where we had to really, like, hold each other as we both died. And like, both of us died multiple times. And the fact that we did it with such grace and with such love because we weren't focused on what happened, we focused on why it happened.

Beautifully said, my love. And, you know, we went there, like, we both went there, you know, went all the way to the other side. And, you know, and I want to bring attention to the beauty when you look at it from the macro perspective, which is you can't have expansion without contraction. And I think a lot of the stories that were told about marriage and being in, you know, sacred partnership or just in married, you know, we see in the movies, it's like you ride off to the, you know, into the sunset and it's white picket fences, happily ever after. Nothing ever happens. You're just.

Til death.

Yeah. And it's. That narrative is so deep. And so when contractions do happen, inevitably happen, we. We misdiagnose them.

Yeah.

We go like, oh, this is not supposed to be there's. Something wrong with me or my partnership or my partner or with life instead of, wow, this is an opportunity for me to face some darkness, you know, some. Some of my blind spots, some of the things that are in the sphere that I haven't spoken to, acknowledged. And when we change the narrative, the perspective on it, it becomes this empowering experience. And again, we didn't know any of. Of this when we went through it. And so I really, like, want to honor us for still being able to make it through it. But that's what got us really curious about how could we do it? Because we knew it's going to happen again. Contraction will inevitably appear, and so how can we go about it with more grace? And that's what's gotten us really interested in the science of that and learning to welcome the contraction, to celebrate the contraction even in the midst of the craziest of the contractions, to infuse in breath and awareness and gratitude, knowing that this will lead us into the most beautiful expansion we couldn't even dream of.

Before, you know, and also the awareness, too, that, like, I believe that if one person in a partnership is feeling contracted, the other one is. Is as well. And so it's like bringing in, you know, perhaps Johan's story at that time was, I feel unsatisfied. I was also unsatisfied. Right. And so that is. It's like really asking us to get honest because oftentimes in our society we want to put ourselves in a disempowered state or a victim state, like, this happened to me. But we are in partnership. We're playing this dance. And when we can really take that, it doesn't mean everyone has to stay together. That's not.

It's just.

It's knowing that you are playing your part. And that's so much more empowering in that, to just decide, like, oh, that if I can create that, then I can create something different.

And we're constantly initiating each other, you know, into hopefully, further and further iterations of opening and discovery. And to what Rachel said, you know, our philosophy throughout it all was, if we're not meant to be together, then we're so grateful that we chose each other for this initiation into better versions of ourselves and really respecting each other and honoring each other for having the willingness and having the courage to speak our deepest, darkest, most scary truths to each other. And then when you do that, the freedom that follows, the attraction that follows, the connection, the passion that follows is insane. All the aliveness that you thought you needed to look for outside of the relationship is all of a sudden in the relationship.

Yeah.

Because you said that unspeakable, crazy thing. You know, and for, you know, if we want to get more specific, you know, for me specifically, at the time, in the beginning was like I was saying, and what I was feeling is that Rachel was like the safe girl. You know, she was this rosy colored glasses, safe girl, people pleasing girl. And I was like, that's not what I want. I want this version of Rachel who is just today is badass, fucking powerful, fearless, fully, sensually, sexually embodied version of herself. And in order to get there, the rupture was necessary. And for me to become a trustable man and be able to talk about my infidelity, my fears and desires, I needed also for the rupture to be so huge that I had, like, nothing else to lose. And again, oftentimes this is when people go separate ways. Right. Instead of going, this happened for us. And especially in retrospect, we're like, wow, we cast the people so perfectly. Oh my gosh, you know, everyone was exactly the stakes needed to be so high for us to be able to be like, okay, I'm going to. There's no other. The ledge is so tiny, I have to jump. You know, and we did.

And here we are, full body resonance with everything you just shared. And you know, I think that sometimes it takes that being on the very cusp of the edge of just like, okay, we're either doing this and bearing our whole hearts or bust. Because it's like you just can't go back into contraction after something like that. You just. And it's funny because we think by being that perfect trophy versions of ourselves, which was one of the programmings I realized I had running of like. Cause my dad was very narcissistic. So I learned how to appeal to narcissistic men and be like the perfect girl, perfect wife, perfect everything. But then you're not. You think you're gonna get more intimacy that way, but you're actually releasing yourself from that. It's from saying the scary thing that you're either gonna like, lean all the way in together or it's like, okay, this truth is something that I can't be with. And at least you're honest with it. So what made you guys choose to stay together? What was that decision making process like? Because a lot of people, that's. That's the big question.

Yeah, I want to speak to that too. I want to, before we go into it, is this was also not Like. Like, wow, we choose each other now. It was a long process. I just want to reiterate, you know, folks that are listening, you're like, oh, you just do this, and then it's like, it's all fixed and it's all done. No, this is, like, years in the making of choosing each other and making sure that this is what we actually want to do.

And also, the skill set we had then is definitely not what we have now. And I really want to honor both of us, because even in the midst of that, we handled it so beautifully, and that's part of our design. We've never been. We've never called each other names. We've never yelled at each other. That's never.

You've yelled at me a couple of times.

I have. I've yelled at him, like, a handful of times when it was necessary. He's never yelled at me in 10 years. Like, so we handled it so well. And in the midst of it, we held each other while, like, he flailed and was like, I want to be with this other woman. I want to be with both of you. And I was like, I'm here for all of it. And then when I flailed and was in love with this, you know, other person, he was like, I'm here for it. And. And so it was, like, so beautiful to experience the depth at which. Oh, it makes me so emotional, like, because we're both seekers, and we are on the paths that we're chosen to be on, Even in the devastation, we still wanted to be there for each other. And, like, I remember this very specific moment when we were on the couch, and I was, like, laying in his arms, and I was so angry at him. I was so angry. And at the same time, there was, like, this visceral feeling in me that I was home. And it was, I think, the most important thing to recognize for me, in my view of him, was like, I knew that he was running a program and a trauma, and this was where it came from. And it wasn't like, you know, he wasn't trying to do this out of malice. Like, you know, it didn't happen over and over again. It happened two times, and it was like he brought it to the surface, and I was like, oh, this is the point at which I help him heal. Like, this is that moment, and he keeps showing up. And that's how our relationship has always been, is, like, even no matter what's come up, when it's been super challenging, both of us have always had the willingness to choose to keep going. And it's been consistent. And so it's like there was that. That I could, even though I was broken, still somewhat feel held.

And also, we didn't ever grip each other. You know, our story was like, if there is another person that is more right for you than I am, I celebrate that and I honor that and I set you free. Right. So there wasn't this thing of even though we, you know, at the time, Rachel still wanted to explore an open container, I felt unsafe. I asked to close the container to be monogamous. And even though I would say that in some ways the emotional container wasn't closed for some years because she still felt like she needed that as a backup plan, as a safety plan, in some ways, I knew that that was. Was part of my opportunity to hold her, to make her feel safe, that I actually do choose her and that, you know, and if I wasn't that guy for her, then I would. Would have celebrated releasing you back into the wild. You know, because we love each other so much. And through that experience at four years, we. What was brought or what was created was such massive respect for each other. And the way that we got to hold each other through that death portal and rebirth portal, that the respect is such that. And I think we still have that in our field, that same belief, however, we very strongly believe that we're designed for each other, literally made for each other, because it gets better and better forever and ever. We're like, I don't see this happening with anybody else.

It's so beautiful that you were able to alchemize such a pain, like, for the feminine, that feeling of feeling like unchosen and unimportant and that your love of your life is in love with someone else. It's like you're living nightmare. And it takes a lot. I think it also takes a lot of courage to stay because society tells you, oh, well, if now I follow these Instagrams about being a high value woman. This is like the key term. It's like a high value woman walks away the moment there's even a sniff of a red flag. And it's like these things like that, and you're like, oh, shit. But then also, men are healing and they're not perfect and you wouldn't be in this container that you're in right now. And it's almost like what I notice happen a lot in breakups too, is that the woman often gets more into her sensuality. That was the case for me because it's like, you needed. It's like, almost like when we're in a relationship, we cut ourselves off from our sexuality, and it's, like, only about that person. But we go into, like, wife mode. It's like, for some reason, we're trained. It's like, okay, now we're going grocery shopping. We're doing to do lists. We're doing this, we're doing that. And I noticed myself, I was 24, and I very quickly went into that because I was like, I wanna, like, seal the deal.

You know, keep this man.

Exactly. Because you have this idea of once you're married, now you're safe, it's done deal. And for me, it took the divorce to go deeper into my sensuality. And, you know, for you, having this breakup. And then often for men, it's the. They're in their testosterone phase in different women. And it takes, like, a beautiful, empowered woman that really meets you and potentially losing her to be like, oh, my gosh, like, is this worth it? And you said it brought you more into being, like, committed. And actually, you then wanting to have the monogamous relationship and you being like.

I don't know, maybe we should be.

A little bit more open.

Yeah, I. And I know that some of you women out there don't want to hear this, because y' all have been going through it, you know, for a long, long time. And sort of in this world in a way of, you know, made for men and run by men. And I gotta tell you, you guys are the answer. Yeah, you know us, we're not able to see that stuff. And, you know, men are so much more. We're so much more. Tend to be in our heads. And the programming is so, you know, generations and generations deep. And the way that Rachel really impacted me was through my heart, which was so shut off and so closed off. I was not, you know, I was accessing my lower chakras. Very active brain. Very active. This was just like a dead spot. Like, it wasn't nothing there. And it was. It was her really bypassing the intellectual. I wouldn't say bypassing, but not using the intellect as a way to sort of handle the things that came up or really speak from her heart to my heart. And because of it, love is, I believe, what everything is made out of. So it's the pathway. There's no. You can't block love. And so it penetrates so deeply. And her love is so powerful. And that's what really got me to feel and to open and to understand and activate myself, to A potential that I didn't even know was possible. Truly, I had no clue. So for you ladies out there listening, even though it might be difficult, especially when you feel you've been wronged by the masculine, please, please, if you can drop into your hearts and just do your best to love those dudes and be compassionate. That doesn't mean you don't have boundaries. That doesn't mean.

No, it means you do have boundaries. Actually being asked for is like, we need to switch the roles. And I really. To what Johan is expressing. I believe that we are the leaders and we lead with love and we leave with deep, profound, embodied love. And that's what this world is seeking. That's what the men are seeking. I totally agree with you. Like that's what I knew in that moment. I viscerally could feel it. I was like, he, he. From a little boy. That's what this moment is. You don't trust the feminine and you're acting out because you don't believe that I actually care about you. And you don't wanna open up your heart and let my love in, because if you do, you feel like you are gonna die and everything is gonna end.

And the belief I also had was I will be manipulated, I will be controlled. I will not know myself. You know, I'm basically.

I'll lose myself.

Yeah. I'll hand over the keys and I'll become her little, you know, which is not at all, by the way, what happened.

Yeah.

But that was a fear that I think I'm certainly. I was faced with anything. A lot of guys are like, you know, if they're talking to their bros or their, you know, fathers or whoever, they're like, yo, you can't, you can't let the woman, you know, she's going to walk you like a dog, you know, or ride you like a horse, whatever. It's this narrative, this fear we have opening our hearts.

Yeah. And because we don't want to be exposed and vulnerable. And. And the thing that we're missing is.

Vulnerability is weakness, which is literally the opposite of what it.

Which is current and that shadow feminine of manipulation.

Exactly. And that's the thing. You know, I heard this the other day and I think it's so poignant. Which is, you know, why are we, if we've been hurt, why are we then therefore choosing to hurt? You know, and it's. We're recycling this energy all the time versus really stepping into leadership, which is to what Johan expressed like, it means boundaries, but it means calling each other Forward with. With love, with consciousness, with devotion. And I. And the moments that we did that are such profound, pivotal moments that I hold in my blueprint that when I think about that, I'm like, fuck, that is the most powerful version of me, which is, I'm not gonna listen to your illusion. I'm not gonna buy into your fear and your trauma. I'm going to choose here and show you what real love is, and I'm going to let go of the story, which is, I'm not good enough, or I'm not. I'm not. Because really, like, all those experiences, they're not about us. They're about what the other person is doing, you know? And, like, can we let go of that story and choose to really come into partnership for what it's there for, which is to love each other, open, to heal the deep shit? Because we all have it. We all have stuff with our parents, authority figures. Like, our formative years have fucked all of us. No matter if you have amazing parents or not, there's something in our way. It's like, by design, so that we have this transformational experience, experience of really choosing to. To be the creators of our experience. So it's. It's like we need to do it through love and let go of the story that's keeping us separate. Because we don't want separation. We want connection.

Johan, were you on a spiritual journey at this time? Like, were you open to healing and therapy and things like that?

Yes, I got on a spiritual journey at a very young age of 14. And also for a long time, it was very much a heady journey. You know, it was this traditional sort of how I interpreted it, I should say, traditional Eastern philosophy. You know, feelings are kind of stupid. Humanity. You know, this whole thing is like just Maya and illusion. And so I was like, oh, I'm just going to be above it. I'm just going to observe it all and, you know, not give any credence to my feelings. And so I completely, again, and by design, cut myself off from my heart and feelings and made up a story that they're dumb. And then, you know, big mistake, obviously. Beautiful learning. And then at the age of 29, I was in therapy, I was in acting class. And I also had a girlfriend, finally, who was, like, not putting up with any of my bullshit. So it was like a trifect. My therapist was a woman, my acting teacher was a woman. And really, like, the trifecta of that helped me begin to crack the facade and the belief systems. And then by the Time Rachel came along, I was certainly way more open to not always needing to be right. It's through my first divorce at 33, where I really saw. It was like a full death portal where I saw my life flash in front of my eyes. And my therapist was actually there for it as well, my best friend Paul. And I could really see how I was using these spiritual terms and these philosophies as a way to justify blaming and not taking responsibility. And it was so profound and so big. And so when Rachel came along, I was definitely seeking partnership and ready to not just do these, like, shallow little dives into the pool, but really, like, dive in, you know? And I was, for a long time, in our beginning part of the relationship, really, like, looking for drama. I was like, where's the drama at? You know, I was bored. I was like, this is so vanilla. And so I found there was always. I always find something wrong. There's always something that I could focus on, you know, that wasn't in me, but rather in her that was off, you know? And through this, I want to fast forward in time now that what we teach and what we're doing. Our first teacher training in the Pyramid Breath method. Through this experience was birthed a new type of a practice that isn't this static practice. It was a traditional type of a practice, but it's very much expressed and alive and tahantric and embodied.

Wow. Shakti. And.

And again, to me, as a very masculine Eastern European man, that would have been just like, yeah, never. And now to daily be in that embodiment of cultivating the connection between the masculine, the feminine, and then realizing how much bigger it makes both sides, how much more of a man, a masculine man, I've become, a trustable man. I've become because of it. And again, for me, having that realization that divine is feminine and all of the expression that I see around me is the feminine expression of the divine, it completely changed my relationship to the feminine. Because before, the feminine was just like the messy, unpredictable, manipulative. That's the story that I'd made up.

That's the program you were running, and.

You had been conditioned into the feminine. There's this beautiful divine expression of aliveness and so completely different way of relating to the feminine within myself. Right. All the stories I have around my own feelings and aliveness and then outside as well.

I ask that because I wonder for people listening who are maybe in a similar situation. Can you just make sure you're talking into it? Okay.

Yeah.

I ask that because a Lot of questions I get from people are, my partner's not on a spiritual journey, he's not willing to go to therapy. He's not willing, you know, I say these terms to him, he won't listen. So what would you suggest for someone like that who, you know, I think a lot of women, we try to initiate, but you can only take someone as far as they want to take themselves. Would you suggest then leaving if that person's not open? Or do you think that you can be in a relationship with someone who's just maybe this lifetime for them is not about self awareness?

You know, I think that, that it's like two parts. One is if you are desiring your partner to take a journey, take it first and be the embodied reflection of that. So when you are having these visceral shifts and changes, they get curious and want to. And without like nagging or being like, you need to do this, but inviting them into that. And then, you know, to be completely honest, if they don't want to go down that journey and that's what you're wanting, it's likely not the right person for you. Because really, for Johan and I, like the basis, the foundation of our relationship is our practice. We've been doing that from the first moment that we met. And it is our emotional touchstone through literally everything. And we are so devoted to expansion. And that's what keeps it so exciting and so passion filled and so exhilarating. It is never boring. I've never been bored.

I would say that there are, luckily there are so many different ways to explore that. You know, if one way, if you're like, hey, my partner doesn't want to do yoga with me or go to therapy, maybe they would be interested in doing a ketamine journey or ketamine therapy.

Or a breath work.

Or a breath work, like something, you know, transformational breath work or.

Or transcendental meditation.

Or maybe they're willing to get into an ice bath, or maybe they're willing to, you know, try pyramid breath. And maybe they're willing to go to Hoffman Process. Yeah. And so there's a lot of different, different. Oftentimes we don't know of all the options out there. And so if we're like, we found this one way, I want you to do this one way. And that doesn't work. And we get disheartened versus getting really curious about, is there something that our partner might be more open to? And then giving all of those options a go and seeing maybe taking them to an ecstatic dance, or taking them to a yin yoga class, or taking them to, you know, watching a documentary together or reading a book together, or, you know, is there some. What's the avenue that gives them the impetus to begin to open and to question? And if you've tried those things and it's not there, I think you either have to go, like, I accept you as you are, and I accept that this is what my life will be like, so I can live without resentment. Or you go like, thank you so much for this experience. It's time for me to find somebody who's in alignment with what we desire. Because. Because we have the same goals, the same desires, same balance. We want the same things in the world, and we have areas that we need to work on and work on. However, what we desire out of life is the same. And because of it, we're constantly driving towards that with glee and joy and excitement. And we read books together at the same time or listen to books and. And, like, we're constantly like, oh, my God, you got to do this thing and this and this. And so we're constantly experimenting together, so it never gets stale, ever.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, as. As you share this. You know, in my. In my previous marriage, we did not have the same values. We did not have. I would. Sometimes we would have conversations like, what does your ideal life look like?

I'm like, I don't know.

I'd live in, like, Bali or Costa Rica in the jungle with a waterfall, and there's community, and there's drumming and there's dancing. And, like, that's how I see my life. And he's like, I'd love to live in, like. Like, Ibiza and go to trance clubs every night. And, you know, like, in the underground house scene, I'm like, that is so not my reality. But in my mind, I'm like, well, I guess we'll have to find a middle ground. That's not your ideal reality. It's not my ideal reality. We'll have to find, you know, maybe it's the north part of Ibiza, something like that. And, you know, I think there's a beauty to compromise right. Of. Like, it's not always going to be exactly what you want, but it's almost like God was like, stop playing small. It's like, if this is what you really want and this partnership will not allow you to have that, then it's like, what are you gonna choose?

Yes.

You know, being, like, in this kind of met relationship and not having your Dharma and your soul's fullest expression, or to lose this connection and be grateful for it, but now have the freedom to live your soul's fullest expression. The fear that shows up in me, and I know probably people listening too, is like, well, what if I never find that person who wants the same, who also wants to do the Bali dancing thing? Or oftentimes it's like, that's so feminine. So only, like, a really feminine guy would want to do that. I mean, if you guys have been to Ubud Bali.

No, not yet.

Not the best for dating. I'm sure there's great people there too, but. So do you believe that there is, I'm curious, your take on soulmates, Twin flames. Do you believe there is, like, this one person out there for you or several people out there for you? Or it's always just a true choice and an inevitable dance of compromise?

I think it's. It's sort of like a mixture. And I. So I love this. This inquiry because I think it's so present. And there's this, like, scarcity mindset that we carry around with dating. Like, I'm gonna settle because I'm never gonna find anything else. And I think that, you know, for those of us who are listening to this, you're obviously in the work. You're. You're choosing this, and I, for us both, like, continuously using your consciousness to serve you versus enslave you. Right? There are 8 billion people in the world, right? The more that you step into who you are, the more that you magnetize someone towards that. Now, it might not be exactly what you think. And I love that you express that, because I believe so deeply in compromising. And compromising can be such, like, kind of like a dirty word. You're like, I'm never gonna. There is that. Like, I'm not compromising myself. Someone's just gotta meet me. But it's not compromise in a lower vibration, it is. You are creating something brand new with another human. And the thing that we have found together is otherworldly. Now, I love to ecstatic dance. Johan is not. He's not the most ecstatic dancer, but I get my fix on my own. It's what I teach, you know, I do it with my women. Like, there are all. All these different ways that we can find that really meet ourselves. Do I believe that Johan and I have done this before in many lifetimes? Absolutely. We've done past life regressions. I've seen it, I felt it. I love this human so much. And I also believe that if Anything were to happen that we would find other people. I believe that because it empowers me, me, and it keeps me trusting life and it keeps me meeting life versus having sort of like a fatalistic. If I miss my person, I'm missing it forever. You are always going to get what's meant for you, you know, and really like inviting people to keep discovering who it is that they are and how they want to be met and. And asking the universe to show it to you.

Yeah, I would. I would say that it's definitely a choice.

Right.

Everything is a choice. And I believe that the more that we immerse ourselves in these practices that really change our resonance, the more likely you are to attract magically your tribe, those people. You find yourself in places in different parts of the world where magically that other person or people are also attracted to. And Rachel and I aren't each other's type. So when we first met.

Because you guys look alike.

I know.

Yeah. So we're not.

No, I know.

You're mixed.

You're half black, which is crazy.

Cause you don't look. And you're Eastern European.

Yeah, we're each other's type now. Like, we were obsessed with each other. But in the beginning, that wasn't the case at all. But there was this under.

Yeah.

So if you guys were on a dating app, you would have missed each other because you're only going for your type on these apps.

Very, very likely. And we were both like, sort of. I remember the moment that I first saw him. I was like, this guy is so not my type. But I was like in my. You know, I just got into la, I was like, I'm just gonna date everybody. And then when I saw him and he didn't. He didn't like. I couldn't get his attention energetically. And I liked it. I was like, mm, this is a hard one. Let me go deeper into this. And it was like. It was energy. That was the thing.

Thing.

Which.

So, yes, I agree with that. We get too trapped in what we think we want.

Yeah. We have these ideas of, you know, what my partner is going to look like, what they're going to do. They're going to be, you know, they have read these books and done these practices.

So you guys didn't write lists or anything.

I. I am a deep advocate of the list, but my list is very different. It's a feeling how you want to feel with the person versus what you're like, oh, I want someone who's rich. Because a lot of Women have that. And it's very different. Someone who's rich versus someone who is ambitious and who has the willingness to constantly grow. You can lose money in an instant. Right.

And also with that, it's like someone who's in integrity. And what we have found, we've both gone through these iterations of ourselves in our career and what we're creating now and co creating now, it feels like for the first time in our lives, we're actually doing the thing that we're put on this earth to do.

And we would have never known that in the beginning.

Yeah, it's your dharma together.

Exactly.

Really, the siddhi, the highest form of relationship is when it can be dharmic.

Yeah. And that's what it feels like. And so that's what I would say to the folks out there that are listening. Listening is like, it may the iterations of yourselves and the other that when you first meet, who you get to become is what you're looking forward to versus, again, if someone's static and, you know, someone's like, I'm a grownup and this is. I've stopped learning. I am now this person. Move on. And if there's a willingness there to question, to explore, to be in discovery, please stay. Because there's so much. Like, once you get into the habit of it and you get to go through a few, like, you know, mini deaths into rebirths, you're like, wow, this.

Is incredible trust and intimacy. And I think to what you said before, like, the dating world with the apps and with what's happening on Instagram and like, the amount of, from my perspective, noise that's out there, that's really righteousness, that's really, like, detrimental to people's hearts because you're not in. In exploration. Like, love is unexplainable, and it is a journey that is so magical. And it involves like, you know, there's that quote that's like being with someone long term is like going to that person like a thousand funerals. It is that, and that's why it's so fulfilling and what keeps you sustained and what keeps the passion alive. But we are so stuck as a society on attracting our perfect partner. And what you're really saying, from my perspective, when you're like, oh, well, I met this guy and no, he's not it. What if you're not perfect yet? What is that saying about you? How are you holding yourself in that? It's like, can we be in a growth mindset forever? Be in discovery forever? Let love evolve Forever. That's what consciousness is. It is meant to evolve and expand. That's what relationship does. And when we do that and we allow it, it is like this really juicy, incredible ride that will make that honeymoon phase that happens in the beginning last your entire relationship.

And I think looking like what I've shifted energetically within myself is instead of looking for qualities about that person, looking for qualities of your shared relationship. Right? So, for example, I'm very creative and artistic. So my type has always been musicians because they're creative and artistic people. But it's like, well, what if they're not a musician? But our dynamic is creative and artistic. We. We create art together. And it's maybe an interest or a hobby of theirs, but it's not what they do with their entire career, because it's like, ultimately we are attracted to the things that we want to embody, and we can look at each of those people as a muse of an energy that we are wanting to step into. So I'm like, okay, how am I not totally evoking my inner musician? Okay, let me sign up for music production classes. Let me just focus more on my DJing. Let me do more of these things. And then you witness the people that you're attracting shifts because you're no longer needing that fix from something outside of you. And then you're witnessing, okay, what is my next area of growth? Look at who you're attracted to right now.

Yeah, yeah.

It's, you know, like, Johan and I are very, very different. You know, we have the same values and the same, like, desires, but we are very different human beings. And that's what makes it interesting. You know, it's like, I believe that we want to be challenged, right? Because that's what keeps us growing. And it's like, if, you know, people are always like, well, I just want, like, you know, they'll say, to my best. Your best friend. Like, I want someone who's just like you. I'm like, well, you don't have sex. Like, there's all these different factors. It's like, let go of the idea completely and just be willing to follow the energy of your body right beyond your eyes. Close your eyes. What does it feel like to be? You know, when we first met and we would hug, it was like, whoa. The hugs were something I'd never experienced before. And that's what.

From the very beginning.

From the very beginning.

Okay, so here's my question for you. So a lot of people say that the relationships that last the most long term often don't have a spark or a connection at the beginning because that spark can be trauma bonding. But I'm like, why would you keep going on a date with someone that you don't feel a connection towards? I just. I wouldn't do that. So I'm curious your take on it. Cause it seems like you guys did have that attraction, even though it wasn't.

No, it was a spiritual connection and it was an energetic connection.

Home connection.

Yeah. It felt very, very good. I was like, I think we're maybe just. Cause she was also dating a friend of mine when we first met. It's like, I think we're supposed to be friends because this connection is unreal.

Were you guys physically attracted to each other?

I think that, like, obviously he's attracted to attractive. I'm attractive. Like, I was like, oh, interesting. But again, not typical. There wasn't this.

There wasn't a trauma.

We weren't flirting from the beginning.

We were definitely flirting.

Yeah. Yeah, we were flirty, but, you know, we're kind of flirty with everybody.

Yeah, it's true.

So it was more like playing this fun game.

And we were.

There was.

Yeah, there was like a rapport that was like, exciting and exhilarating and he. We met each other, but it was not this, like chemical chemistry.

Yeah. Like, I need to fuck you right now. I need to like, rip your clothes off. Like.

Yeah.

You know, and that's something that we actually struggled with for many, many years.

Until getting that feeling of like, you meet someone's. That instant connection. That's trauma bonding a lot of times.

And I think that there's an' Cause.

I wrote the first night I met my ex, met my husband. Then I'm like, oh, shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But then we're used to the movies and things like that of like, you just when you know, you know, love at first sight.

I said it on our first date.

You did?

Yeah, to my friend when Rachel went to the bathroom. And I think I just met my w. And it's because it was different. It was because we met at a meditation retreat and the energy was so palpable and powerful. And we didn't have sex for at least a month.

Yeah. And seeing each other every single day.

Yeah. And the sex was all right again. It was all right for many years. It wasn't mind blowing for many years. Now it's mind blowing, which again is like we're 10 years, you know, and it still gets better and better. We just had one of our biggest breakthroughs, like four days ago. Where we had that really uncomfortable conversation, how we each didn't feel like we were being met.

Yeah. Well, no, because. Let's clap. Because this is good. And I think this is important in relationship is like, we had this beautiful conversation around sexuality. And the thing that I said that I think was really pivotal was like, I'm not not satisfied. I am satisfied, and I still want more. And that is. A lot of couples grapple with that.

That's called not satisfied, by the way.

No, it's not. Baby, don't do that.

Because satisfied is satisfied.

Yeah, exactly. But we can still. Like, it's not like, I'm not on. Like, we had amazing sex before this, and something sparked. Ooh. But. And could we get more? And that, I think, is really important to continue to have that conversation, because then it opened up this whole avenue that was like, holy smokaroonies. And it was amazing. And people miss that. It's like, you get together, you're like, great, I'm safe. I'm the wife, you're the husband. Or whatever it is. Whatever gender you're playing, you're like, I'm just gonna chill. Now we're in our safe zone. Stop having the conversation.

It's so easy to get into a pattern, you know, when you're with somebody for a long time, you know, okay, sex looks like this. We're gonna, you know, take the clothes off, and then this happens. And step two and step three, the.

Things that get you off. The things that get me off.

And then. And then you and you. And then go off to the next task.

Exactly.

And for a while, that's really fun. And then when you do it a hundred times the same way, you're like, the next hundred are going to look exactly the same, and it's going to get less and less exciting. And so what we've discovered is to have those conversations. And, you know, this one also was sparked with us actually, again, beginning to be a little bit more playful outside of our container. Right. And the. But this time around, like, not being confused about anything and being in complete.

Integrity with trust and safety, and then.

Exploring and then having that third energy, we're using the Esther Perel terms here to really be enlivening for us. And then finding that oftentimes, even if that sparks a conversation, like, what is lacking or what could we add in that's not there right now? And that's what happened for us is then having that sex where we're both like, that's the best sex we ever had.

We're like, whoa.

Just so blown away, you know, and just being like, did that. That just. Yeah, that just happened. And.

And that was with the third energy.

No, no, after the conversation. After we've been in like a playful space.

Yeah. Like a very like sweet, playful, like safe, very like PG experience.

Well, I would not call that PG, my love.

I would say it was PG, maybe PG 13.

Okay. You would let a 13 year old into that room? No, exactly. You're making shit up right now.

Okay, okay.

She just has more depths to 18 plus.

18 plus PG for Rachel.

Okay. I like it. So to say. There's so many opportunities to explore aliveness and really convert the aliveness to be in service to you versus enslave you, like Rachel likes to say. Cause aliveness is gonna keep coming. It's not going away, it's coming.

Yeah, that's right. I love that. It's inspiring that you're like, yeah, our first few years of sex were okay, but it was. Now we're having the best sex in 10 years in. Because you always the opposite. You always hear the first few years were amazing, but now we're 10 years in. So it just shows that the more communication you have, the more honesty, the more opening you have, the sex gets better. It's not that these things dilute and make a relationship boring and too real.

Yes.

But it's actually that is what creates like your true fantasy and making it happen rather than like playing a role that neither of you guys like. I wonder with these one night stands. It's like you guys have never really met or talked. Like, is that really satisfying for either parties unless there's some trouble, trauma bonding involved, maybe. So I think it's so beautiful that you guys are just like living embodiments of this because, you know, a lot of people talk about relationships and it's one thing to talk about in theory, it's another thing to be living it in today's world with the social media, with the distractions, with the, you know, confusion of gender roles and just all of the dynamics and conversations. And you guys are really aware of all of them too. I mean, I've spoken to you guys off air for many, many hours about the things. And you guys are both so open but like so romantic. And it's beautiful to have that because it's like sometimes you get so open that it's almost like there's no more polarity or really a relationship anymore.

Right.

But it's like you guys are like, I love you so much and I'm obsessed with you and like have that cuteness and you're like, oh, but we're just getting started.

Yes. Oh yeah.

That's what it really feels like is that we're just getting started.

It's just like, just scratch the surface.

Of how amazing it really can. And by the way, that's our daily prayer.

Yeah, yeah.

That is what we speak out loud every single day when we do our gratitude prayer and practice is that. And you know, I so powerfully believe that we create our reality by ours, by our intentions, with our energy. And so this is our creation. And you know, there's so often we find ourselves in a place, in a world, having an experience and being like, didn't we just speak this into existence like three months ago when we're taking a walk and we're like, yeah, yeah we did.

And you know, I think that to what you said, I think that's so beautiful because there's this misconception that when you're getting into relationship, if you really like say all the things, that there's no more mystery. And I think that blocks us from going deeper. When I believe the truth is the deeper you go, the deeper it becomes. And there is this never ending portal. And when you start to continuously reveal your desires, you discover new desires. Right. And how to. I think one things of the, the most important things in relationship is creating safe spaces for everything to be said. Right? To express like your worries, your apprehension, your resentment, your desires, your needs, your wants and for that conversation to not like be a blow up. Right. But for everything to be there. Because then to what you said, you sort of switch the roles and it just gets better and better and deeper and deeper because the more intimacy you create then like, you know, the deeper you get into your erotic themes and you're, you know, through that you're like, oh, I didn't even know that I desired this. But because there's so, so much trust and safety, you discover something that you would have never discovered.

So it's like really you stop playing a character.

Exactly.

You really are able to be who you are moment to moment, which is forever changing. And so you don't need to hold onto this idea. I'm this mysterious, I'm going to show you a part of me. Or I'm this dude that's this. And you know, it's so again a static idea of who you think that thing is or that they want.

Yeah.

Versus together being in discovery of who you get to become moment to moment, which is forever interesting.

Yeah.

So beautiful. Well, thank you both for being walking examples of this, of love, embodiments of love. And I love following both of you separately with your pyramid breathwork that you're doing. Guys, he does the most amazing breathwork. He has a certification, so I'll link his Instagram below. And Rachel does incredible wild woman ecstatic dances. And can you talk about your shared dharma, the project that you guys are co creating?

Yeah. I mean, to everything we expressed, you know, we really want to impart on anyone who is willing that this was tools. Like, we're not just perfect. We're not just. We found our soulmate. Like, there are tools and there are skills. And, like, you know, we. One of my angel, one of our best friends. She said, like, after newness and novelty comes skill and devotion and really wanting to teach people these things that none of us are taught when we're little and really taking couples and sort of busting the myths that anyone we work with is just needing, like, it's okay to go moments without having sex. It's totally normal. And so bringing people into containers and doing, like, deeper relationship mastery where we get intimate and we hold space for you to really open yourselves in partnership so that you can experience the passionate, deep, intimate love that you truly desire.

Yeah. So our couple's container is coming up, and another container that we're so excited about is a men's container that we're both gonna be leading. So it's not gonna be like me just holding a men's container. Right. This is really. The dudes are gonna get the embodiment of what it means to be in a relationship and.

And get the feminine.

I think it's so rare. Yeah. To create a safe space where both masculine and feminine persp. And we're really seeing the value of that and the need for that in the world right now, because otherwise it's so polarized. And we're in these narratives and stories, and it's through the togetherness of us that we have discovered. I literally was saying that on the way here. It's like we make each other the best versions of each other. We bring out the best in each other. And it's through the process that we've gone through that we are able to. To. To hold that and live that.

And it's so beautiful knowing that there are tools and it's a skill set and requires practice, because then you're not in the space of waiting and like, oh, I hope I find my Johan, and I hope I find my Rachel. But it's like, okay, let me use this time of being single to look at my blind spots and to go inwards and to uplevel myself, which is going to cause me to be attracted to different people, be in different circles and show up in different ways. So it's such a beautiful place to devote yourself, not just when you're single and then also while you're in partnership too. So your only learning container isn't that other person, but you're bringing new tools into the relationship, which keeps that spark going as well.

Absolutely.

Yay. Well, thank you guys so much for being here today and for sharing space with us.

Thanks for having us.

Yeah, such a pleasure. We love you so much.

Sending you so much. Love, everybody.

Mm. Oh, my goddess. I am on cloud nine after that conversation. It is conversations like this that I do the podcast for. You know, these types of discussions that open our hearts and just pull open the lid of the car, of all of our suppressed feelings and unmet expectations and these shifts that we're experiencing as a collective, but we're not talking about. We need to bring this at the forefront. We want to be in relationship, we want to be in love, we want companionship and unionship, but that doesn't just happen to us. It's something that we actively co create. So I hope you took so much out of that episode. It's definitely one I'm going to listen to again and again because there are so many different angles that if you really take that in and apply it into your life, it is going to change the game for you. And not just the game. You know, it's the life, it's the expansion, it's what's possible for us through this beautiful unifying energy of love. So thank you so much for tuning in. Share this episode on social media, share it with your friends. Share it with those in a marriage, in a heartbreak, anywhere in between. And if you loved this episode, I would love for you to leave a review for it on the itunes store. And as a free gift, I will share with you my womb meditation. So this is a little eight minute meditation practice that you can do to connect your womb's energy and actually ask her questions and receive her answers. So all you gotta do is head over to the itunes store, the Apple store, where you're listening to your podcast podcasts, and leave a review. Take a screenshot of that review and email it over to me@saharaamsahararose.com you can find that email in the show notes and I'll send you back my womb meditation. Thank you so much for tuning in. Be sure to subscribe to receive the next one and I can't wait to keep the discussion going. Namaste. It.