507: The Secrets To Steaming Hot Polarity In Relationships with Oren Harris

For me now, being single, I'm like, oh, I'm a love devotee. Like, the purpose of my life is love. Whereas in my marriage, I actually never used those terminologies. I never felt that, because now I'm tuned into the actual spirit of love, which is far beyond relationship, marriage, or any form of institution.

100%. And I think that the institutions and the relationship constructs and the marriage and all the things that we do, aren't they. I. Aren't they all, on some level, designed to try to get us to love? So it's like, why not start with love? Or like I've said, don't try to contain love. Let go of.

Let go of attachment.

Yeah, let go of attachment. You know which attachment comes from? Disconnection and separation, you know, from. From love or from. Like, when we. When we know that we contain that which we're seeking, like, in essence, then it doesn't make sense to be attached to something.

Hi, I'm Sahara Rose, and this is the highest Self podcast, a place where we discuss what makes you your soul's highest development. I love bringing my personal friends and conversations on having in my real life on this podcast. And not too long ago, I was at this beautiful event and we ended up at a friend's gorgeous mountain home, where, of course, we drop into consciousness on what is sex, love, relationships and life, which is just casual conversation in my life here. And, you know, for me, being on this journey of really understanding what is love? That is the question I have been sitting with this year. And I feel it's the purpose of why we are here, to be living embodiments of love. And I've noticed in my life and the lives of many people, relationships are the things that people struggle with the most. It's the thing that we want and the thing that sometimes feels the hardest, not just to get, but to maintain and to continue to flourish in the way that we want. So this beautiful king just dropped in. It was his house. And he just starts, like, channeling freaking source. I felt like I was at agape or something, and I was just like, oh, shit. Okay, we need to continue this conversation on the podcast. And, you know, personally, I have being single now for the first time after seven years, I have really been sitting with, you know, wanting this beautiful, conscious relationship and to meet someone that I see as, like, my God man in human form. But sometimes it's hard, especially for those of us that are like, yeah, I'd love to surrender to the masculine, but I can't find Someone that I feel safe enough to, who can I trust, Especially when there's wounds of betrayal and things like that in the past. So we're gonna be diving into this, gonna be an awes, honest conversation. I'm going to be not only speaking for myself, but channeling a lot of the feminine in these conversations that I've been having. So he's going to be channeling the sacred masculine for us and also just sharing our personal experiences. So he is a coach, a speaker, a soul who also loves to dance as much as I do. And let's welcome Oren to the Highest Self podcast.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here with you.

Excited to see where this conversation.

Me too.

So the first question I'd love to ask you is, what makes you your highest self?

I feel my highest self when my heart is open and I'm in my shine. Because when my heart is open, I'm allowing love to flow through me, to flow as me. And when my heart is open, I'm also naturally connected to my spirit, to my soul, and that's the shine. I also feel like my highest self when I'm in my innocence and connected to my true self. Beyond conditioning, beyond labels, beyond ideas, shoulds, shoulds, blah, blah, blah. Just that simple state of being. That's when I feel like my highest self.

If I've learned anything this year, it's just how much more can I feel? How much more can I open my heart? And like, that's really what we're here just to feel more alive.

Yes, yes. Feeling. Feeling's almost like a lost art in a way. And I think that. Well, let me be clear. Feeling without attaching a narrative or a story or something to like, just purely feeling is almost like a lost art. And I would say it's like a superpower.

So true. Because then, yeah, we instantly go into why do I feel like this? Is it because of this? And like the psychoanalyzation, you know, I mean, I do all forms of personal development, but I recently went to this like kind of like more of a therapist and I left feeling just sort of like off. And I was like, I feel like this isn't serving me anymore to just like talk about the thing that happened because it's just getting you back into the trauma and repeating it. And I just feel like this new paradigm is about feeling it without the labeling and the story so we can co create the new reality and the new embodiment that we desire a hundred percent. So, okay, last time I Saw you, we were at your house, dropping in. And I'm like, fireplace, fireplace. Ten people around us, we're going into rabbit holes.

Fireside chat. Yes.

Okay. So I'm gonna just channel the feminine of what I feel and what so many women feel. So I read these books, like David, Dear Lover, which I love. It's like fucking porn for me. It's like, surrender to the masculine who takes you to God. And I'm just like, yes, I want that. I want that. But I'm like, I don't see him anywhere. And I think a lot of us women, we so deeply, we want to surrender. And then we have experiences or hear stories or friends, experiences of, you know, women who haven't been able to trust, women who haven't been able to surrender. And then we question, is it my wishful thinking, is it my inner maiden that thinks there's going to be this man who can take me to God, but I just have to focus on healing and loving myself? And are those even separate things? So let's dive in.

She went right into the sauce.

I brought the sauce.

Well, the first thing I'll say is that I get the idea of a man taking you to God. And fundamentally, for that to God takes you to God. Now, God can flow through a man, and in that sense, a man can take you to God. But I think at the depth of that desire, of that real, juicy, relevant, perfectly fine desire for to experience a man taking you to God, there's nothing wrong with that. That's like the dream, right? But I think what's off about that is missing the essence of that, which is our desire for God to come into us, penetrate us, permeate us. Like that is at the core of that desire. And it's like being ravished, right? Which is also another kind of thing that I think the feminine naturally gravitates towards.

How would you describe ravishment from the masculine perspective? Because I feel like a lot of people talk. It's like, I want to be ravished. It's like, what is that?

That, you know, and that's a great place to start. Like, if you really want to be ravished is to actually connect with. What does that even mean? Right. That way, it takes it from this mental idea and generating this kind of energy around the idea without actually feeling. What does that actually mean? Right? To. To be ravished or to ravish? In my experience, I'll just say my own personal experience, and then maybe I can channel, like, the masculine in general. I feel like this is almost Ironic, or it's unfolded in ways that feel ironic to me is that if I'm focused on trying to ravish my woman, right, as an intention, as a desire, as a vision, like if this is the goal, I want to ravish my woman. I have desire towards that. She's like, I want. And I'm like, I want it to. Interestingly enough, that the peak of my power and it being able to flow through me and to execute and to deliver, the ravishment comes at its highest peak when I'm absent of the self that's trying to ravish. And so there's. There's a. An interesting phenomenon there that like, I can ravish my woman based on my knowledge and my experience, my wisdom and my notes how. And kind of like, you know, if I touch here, it does this, if I do this. And I. And there's levels of pleasure and power that can exist in that way. But I think again, in essence, when we tune into the energy of ravishment and its purest sense of the awakened masculine, it's God, which means that we have to vacate the space or be a space for God to flow through us, to channel that level of penetration and that level of power. Yes. It might come down through my unique soul, right. And then down into kind of like my Persona and how I might be expressing, uniquely expressing that. But ultimately it's an energy pouring through source. And so when we, when women crave that, they're also craving God, right. And for God to flow through a man, that requires that we be a space for that. So all of our ideas have to be let go of any associations with our value or our worth on being a good ravisher or a bad ravisher. All of these things, as they dissolve, they actually open up more space to be the champion ravisher. And so in a way, the stronger the desire there is for it. We can channel that energy of will, but will is at its highest potency when we're in a state of surrender.

Yeah, what you said about like kind of the performance anxiety and how even with like ravishment that comes. Because I think that's where a lot of couples get confused, right. Like I can speak on a feminine leaning woman. And again, I don't know everything with queer relationships and how these dynamics work. So we're kind of just speaking about it in a CIS heteronormative way. And there's many different forms of this. But for a feminine woman, I feel it's, yeah, this desire to be filled with something like to Be filled with something that will take you places that you can't go on your own. And to have a man that's so just, like, focused on you and all energy and attention to you and, like, praying to God through you. And this, like, transcendental experience allows you to feel like the temple, the goddess, like the place where the man worships. And I feel so many. Yeah. Desire that. Like, deep honoring and being seen and being moved through. Especially because we have this void within us, our womb, space, that has this desire to be filled. But then if we tell a man we want this, then that could create that performance anxiety. So it's like, yeah, it does.

What do we do? 100% it does. Right. It's not the telling. The intention there might be pure. It's like, oh, maybe if I give you some instruction, give you some tips, give you a little encouragement, then that's a good thing. It's where it's coming from. Right. And that's. Yeah. Generally speaking, like, being told what to do, if anything, I don't think connects a man more to God. It definitely does not promote more trust. And I think at the core, this is another element of, you know, being able to ravish or allow source energy to move through us in that kind of uninhibited way. But highly intelligent. Right. That's the other fear hidden in there, the fear of power. It's like, if I let myself go completely and surrender and allow this level of energy to flow through me, what if I mess up? What if I do something wrong? What if I create pain? And these are all the fears that then have the self, our human self, trying to ravish. And not to say that we can't. Right. But that's what comes in. But I was going somewhere with that.

Well, and on that. I know a lot of women, they tell their partners, like, I want you to just, like, ravish me in this. But the men are afraid. Yes, because you have been trained to be gentle. And this. So then women are like, no, I want you to be, like, aggressive with me. And they're confused.

Exactly, exactly. Be aggressive, but don't do this. Be this way, but don't do that way. Be this way, but don't.

We're confused, too.

I'm just gonna be honest. What that does in our being, and this will come back to the ingredient that I was gonna mention that I just remembered. What that does in our being is it puts us into our head. It puts us into human consciousness. Just meaning the limited construct of all the data that We've gathered in our brain, which can be useful knowledge, wisdom, the past. I know when I did, I touched this this way, it went this way before when I did this. It makes us calculative. And when we're calculative, we literally squeeze God out. So even though we can still generate power and generate energy, and this is our version of ravishing, it's mediocre at best. So what's required is actually probably scary for most men. And it is complete trust. Trust, that's an essential ingredient to be able to allow to trust, right? And when a man is being told what to do, which is different than encouraged, if there's inspiration coming through, then it's coming through inspiration. But when a man's being told what to do, especially if that instruction or that request contains also and don't do this, then it's almost like energetically he's being invited into a state of control. Especially if the invitation has control in it. But that control is like the anti ravishment, right? And control is coming from love. It's a desire to be in honor, It's a desire to be express love. Like that's why we control. But it's still coming from fear. And I'm not trying to oversimplify this, but it is actually quite simple. I'm not trying to say that it's easy, but it requires a level of trust to completely let go, to allow the peak of our energy, the actual divine masculine, to pour through us uncontained. And I see, including myself, I see a lot of men being challenged with trust. And there's a lot of like, in a way, you. This isn't like the literal way to say this, but in a way to create, get into a place of trust that's transcendent and trust your heart and then therefore be able to trust source energy. You almost have to not give a.

Oh, we fucking swear there.

You almost have to not give a fuck to be able to give a fuck on that level. And when I say give a fuck in the purest sense, it just means care, it means honor, it means respect. But see, our hearts in the field of love that we are is intelligent enough to be able to execute that. But that's the fear is that if we let go of our control mechanisms, that we'll be less intelligent, less capable, we might cause pain. And so a man will be trusted in a sense to the depth of his ability to penetrate his own heart and his own feminine, to the depth of his willingness to be in integrity with his own Spirit and his own inner code. Right. It's all of these more transcendent area energies that create the roots of trust that then have even subconsciously in the relationship field have it feel to the woman in her heart and in her body, trust, like she can relax. So there, there's a lot of potential, there's a lot of distortion around this idea of trust and it's well meaning. But if you're trying to be trustworthy, you're already not trustworthy. Because if you're trying, you're, you're in the energy of carefulness, which means you're still operating in fear.

Yeah.

So anyway, that was a mouth, that was a mouthful.

But like, well, it really sounds like it's, it's twofold. It's his devotion to his trust and his devotion to, to God. So one question I have, which I want to ask after my second question is can a man even take us to God who's not connected to God himself? Which I kind of think we both know the answer.

Yeah, no, probably not.

Probably not. He can't take you places, he can't go himself. But then also as the feminine, who, you know, a lot of women are partnered with men who aren't deep in their spiritual practice and they're like, so do I need to give up on this desire? It's like, can you find the God in the man?

I think you can find that if you have a devotion to finding God within yourself and not even like God where you at God, but just like literally like you don't have to search for God the same way you don't have to search for love. It's like Rumi said, it's our defenses we've built up against it that block our awareness and allowing of that which we call God. And so as we surrender to God or like my boo says, make love to God, right. Then you are surrendering to the ultimate divine masculine itself, God, source, energy. Right. And in that state of receiving, in that state of being, that's, I mean this isn't a formula, but that's one way to describe then how you can manifest that through a man, you know, a man who has that devotion within himself for himself, transcendent of the woman and the world, Right. That's a man rooted in God or at least devoted to God. Right. So I think a woman's devotion to the masculine within and you know, being willing to submit, to surrender, to allow that energy to penetrate her would be loosely stated, a way to then manifest that. Because then now you're not seeking it, you're not trying to create it, you're not trying to manipulate or control or under some idea that you are going to be the one to like create that or to facilitate that.

Yeah. What I hear from a lot of women is that they carry deep resentment towards their partners and that resentment is not allowing them to surrender because they're angry. He didn't this, you know, years of relationship can build years of resentment. So do you think that one could like sexually have this dynamic when there still are maybe like underlying issues in the relationship or. No, because the sex is just gonna be a reflection of the relationship.

I think it's possible, but probably lean more towards the miraculous end, you know what I mean? Because anything in any moment can penetrate one so deeply that they collapse back into their innocence and open heartedness. I would say that that's probably extremely rare. And so I'm leaning towards it be it's not impossible, but definitely, probably not probable. You know what I mean? Because whatever is in the field itself is in the field, you know what I mean? Even if it's dormant or not activated in the moment, if it's in the field, it can be a potential obstruction, you know, but if one's in a state of surrender, then that, that in theory could come up and you could make love to it, you know, that that's, that's possible. In which case this energy that we're talking about can continue to flow and amplify and grow and grow and grow. So that's possible. It's not linear is what I'm saying.

But yes, and, and I think that that's where sometimes like role playing and things like that can, can get involved. Where you don't have to like bring your marriage's issues into the bedroom, but like try something new that or you know, maybe, yeah, channel the rage in the sex even potentially.

And you know, yeah, we've, we've made love. We make love to everything, you know, anything that arises like like physically in the act of making love, but like making like. Because when you're make, when you're making love and something arises and you don't use your power or your energy to fix it, change it, move it, judge it, right. Then in that state of openness, then, then love can actually pour into it.

Yes.

Right. And where the love is needed, you know, in some ways maybe even better than having an intellectual dialogue about, about it.

Yes. Because then your rage can be fucked open.

Exactly.

See the core of what's under there.

That'S a Real thing? Yeah, yeah, 100%.

And I think for so many of us women, you know, we have seen mothers and grandmothers who are not in their power. So this generation has been really about stepping into your power, leadership, entrepreneurship, which has been very helpful and has given women a lot more freedom and options. And it's put a lot of us in the masculine role in our relationships. You know, a lot of women are out earning men and just, you know, making decisions, especially mothers, they're often having to make a lot of decisions on a daily basis. So it feels almost like unnatural in the dynamic to then like fall into this surrendered state. So what advice do you have for a woman that feels like she's like holding more of the masculine polarity in the relationship, but doesn't want to be?

I was just thinking about this yesterday. Well, one, surrender, you could say surrender to the desire. So if she's holding more of the masculine pole and she doesn't want to be, it means she wants something else. She wants to be more in her feminine. And I think that's a good step one is to surrender to that desire. And by surrender I mean take the wait, stop waiting to receive your desire. This is how the our ego minds facilitate or create what we want. It's like, okay, well, once the man comes and I don't have to, then I will surrender and be more in my feminine. But that's kind of a flawed premise there. If you look at the energetics of it, it's like basically setting a rule that this is what it implies, even if it's not spoken, is that I will not allow myself to be more in my feminine as my own desire only I will allow that in relation to this other desire, which is to be with a more masculine man. It's the same thing I was saying about being ravished by a man, being ravished by God. And understanding, you know, owning the full desire for your essence to connect more with God helps you to then fully receive your desire for that to happen with a man. It's the same thing with the feminine. I think sometimes consciously or unconsciously, it gets turned into this negotiation with your own desire. Because if your feminine is wanting to come out more, but you've put made that contingent upon the man, then it's very difficult to not be looking and observing and waiting and seeing. Okay, is this presence of masculine energy here to allow me or to give me permission to do this? Does that make sense?

Yeah. So what I'm hearing is we can't wait for the man to like out masculine us, you know, but we have to just drop for. We have to first admit to ourselves that we want to be more in our feminine.

And then, because the waiting is resistance, it's creating. It's creating time. And it's. And it might even be creating a belief, which is really a stopper. A belief like, well, I can't unless. Right? Because put it this way, if your feminine is wanting to come online more, and let's say you are in relationship and you want your man to be more masculine, and you're holding more of the masculine pole, and you're in a moment, and in that moment, your true heart's desire is to be in a state of receptivity in your feminine and receiving, but your man's not in the masculine, then that's the moment where this negotiation happens. And I'm not saying that being in the masculine, the woman being in the masculine is a bad thing. I'm just saying that if we form this belief or resistance to our own desire in that moment, or I'll only relax into my feminine if he shows up and is masculine. That's how it feels to me, is like a state of control. It's like you're negotiating with your feminine. Now. Does that make sense?

But what if the dynamic now, for a very long time, has been the pattern of the woman, like, mothering the man, that she's just like, we're in this dance. I don't know how to change it.

But mothering's not truth, right? So which means there's still a disconnect in the woman. And it's like, I would say get. Getting to the truth of things is where things can change, you know, getting to the, like, what is actually happening. And it's easy to say on the surface, like, oh, well, I want to be more in my feminine, but he's not as masculine. So kind of this is just the dynamic. But usually if you look deeper, there's a deeper truth of, like, okay, what's true for the man and like is. Is. Is he wanting to be more in his masculine? And what's actually happening inside the woman other than the obvious surface desire of like. Not surface. The desire of, like, hey, I want you to be more in your masculine. When I've worked with people on this, individually or together, there's almost always a disconnect from the truth of, like, what's actually happening here versus just looking at the manifestation. Like, right now, he's not in his masculine. So I have to be. Is that what's actually happening. So I, I think that the getting to the truth into the intimacy, if this were an inquiry or an investigation, and getting to the heart of it, both for a man, if he's like, oh, yeah, you want more of that from me, I do too. Right. If there's an alignment there, right. And bringing love in, which then allows you to illuminate and see, like, what's true. What's true here? Like, what is keeping the masculine energy from arising more in a man. And I think that if a man's in judgment, you know, or in fear, and then if a woman really, really wants that, then they're both in resistance. And so then it becomes very difficult to see, like, what's actually happening here. So then it might just be like, you know, for a man and be like, man, I. I should be more in my masculine, which is a sure recipe to not be more in your masculine. Does that make sense, what I'm saying? Like, to get to the truth rather than be like, look at it so kind of like, oh, I'm in my masculine, you're not. And kind of just look at it on that level. Like, what's.

Yeah, having the conversation first and even seeing. Does the man want to be more in his masculine first of all? And I think a lot of men would say, yes, I do. But we have these distortion ideas of what that means.

Exactly, exactly. And the truth will penetrate that, the intimacy will penetrate that, the vulnerability. And you almost have to put the goal aside for a second to even get to that level. Because if you make it such a highlight, especially if you have history around it and it's been illuminated and spoken about and becomes a thing, then that's what I've seen has been difficult to get to. Like, what is it even for a man? For a man, especially a man who's in his masculine brain, you know, and then the doer, right, Trying to understand the formula and become more masculine may not understand or know the value of or know that he even needs to get into his own heart instead of being in the. Well, this is what it looks like to be more masculine. And I just need to work towards that. Right. If you try to get to the truth or to the point of power, to the manifestation, and you bypass what's going on in your heart, then even if you have the codes, you can't execute them. And if you can execute them, it's not sustainable if the heart does not open and relax.

So how can woman commute? Let's say a woman, she has kids and the husband is kind of just doing the bare minimum, getting by. They're not having sex. And she's desiring to be held and to have this masculine leadership in the house and this ravishment. It just feels like those days are so far behind. And maybe the man doesn't even understand, like, the nuances of feminine and masculine. How can a woman bring this up? Is this a conversation for her to bring up? Should she just focus more on, like, polarity, practices and being in her feminine? Like, what can she actually do?

I would say both. You know what I mean? Like, compliment any practices with also penetrating the heart. Cause the, the heart has the ability to transcend communication barriers because it's the essence of communication. And I think that that, like. And when I say heart, it could be like, if a woman wants her man to be more present, for example, and she is only focused on, like, the result and just saying, this is what I want, and this is what you're not doing. This is what I want you to do. That's one level. Take it a level deeper. Expressing the same thing from the heart might look like. It's like when you're in a state of vulnerability and you're more truthful about how you're feeling, about what you're saying, then the communication becomes more powerful and you have more of an opportunity to create or develop or cultivate whatever it is that you're trying to cultivate. And so I think where it becomes complex for women is if sometimes unbeknownst to them, they're actually in their head, they're feeling. So they're like, I'm in my feelings, but they're actually in their head and they're still feeling. And so then there's very little power to communicate, especially if a man is like, closed or if he's not present. So then you could be like, hey, be more present. And he could agree or disagree or try to, like, try to be more present. But when you're in heart, in your heart, you know, then maybe the communication, it's not even the words, it's the energy. It's like, I see you. Like, what does your heart need right now? You see, because not being present is a side effect. Otherwise, if the man's in his masculine, he's not present, and he hears, hey, more. Be more present. And let me, let me just grind and try to be more present, so then I'll be a better man. It doesn't. It doesn't work. You see what I'm saying? And so. And the man, in that example, might not even know how to get in touch with his own heart. That's why if the woman is in her heart, then the vibration, the resonance of the heart field has the ability to activate the heart field in another person. And it. Can it speak. There's an energetic clarity when you're speaking from your heart. It doesn't matter if you're spitting fire. If it's coming through the heart, it's like it clears through the distortion. And that's why, you know, for example, if a woman says, my man's not that present, and she's like, I'm trying to encourage him and say all that. But if she's not honest and vulnerable and saying, I feel unsafe when you're not present, and that's kind of hidden over here. And then it looks like, hey, I'm just offering good advice to you because I care about you. Then how that comes across energetically, it's like the head meeting the head, right?

Yeah. And I agree with everything you say. And, like, I feel like, as women, sometimes we feel like our subtle cues are not picked up on, so we need to be so explicit with what we want. Of, like, I need you to be more present with me. I need you to, you know, when you come home, drop what you're doing and this and that. Because we hear that men need to be told things explicitly.

But then it's like, let's pause on that. Is that true, though?

I don't know. Is it?

Is it not true? Like, black or white. But I think that that's an overrated and potentially flawed idea.

Yeah, it's a very masculine intellectual form of communication. It's very like level two, David Data of like, I needed this because I feel this and, like, formulate.

Right. And even the way you said that, then it's like, now I'm present.

Exactly.

Now we're making.

Right. It's not even what you want.

That's what I'm saying. Is that even true, that that's what's wanted? If we really look at that energy, Right. Men need to be explicitly told what to do. Why do they need to be told what to do? What manner are we talking about? We're talking about the. The aspect of. The intellectual aspect of the masculine, which is only one aspect of a masculine. But is that the guy who ravishes. No, it's not. The guy who ravishes is one who's fucking tuned in, tapped in, turned on, passionate, alive, free within himself. That's not coming from his head. So Even if a man succeeds, you know, at being a, you know, a brainiac, a genius at saying the right thing, being told what to do, does it actually activate passion? No, it doesn't, because it doesn't arise from the being. So that's what I'm saying. Is that even true? I think it's an idea. And a woman who's in her heart. Here's the thing going back to the heart. A woman who's in her heart, truly, which means she's not in a state of lack. She might be feeling the lack of her desire. She could feel eager, but she's vulnerable. And in her heart, if a man says, honey, I just need you to tell me what to do, her fucking oracle is gonna be like, bullshit. That's not gonna work. Do you see what I. Oh, I would hate that. Right? But a man who's in his head might believe that that's what he needs.

Just tell me what to do, I'll do it. It's like, well, I want you to want to do it.

Right, Exactly. I want you to want to. So where does that want come from? It comes from being connected. That's where the actual passion comes from. To be moved towards something. And I do think that women's desire for that is not misled because it's like, it's in you. I want it, and you actually want it, too. So if we're trying to. If a woman's trying to encourage or help or assist a man, if genuinely she's being of service in that way, or even expressing her needs and being like, hey, what can we do then? This is why the heart is so important. It has the power, the intelligence, and knows what to say, how to say it, when to say it. Do you know what I mean? And everything else is not bad. It's just going to be a little bit more complicated, a little bit more like a chess game, a little bit more formulaic. And the more we get into that, the less connection to our core and our passion and our power. And at the end of the day, like, that's really what we're wanting to feel. Like you said we're wanting to feel. So maybe I just hopefully obliterated the notion that, you know, yeah, men just want to be told what to do. You know, I have clients like that. They're like super high performers. And when they're in that aspect of their masculine might just be like, hey, just tell me. And it's like my integrated masculine, which means I'm connected to my feminine. I'd be like, that's not what you want, but you're lying to yourself right now. You see, that's when you can truly be of service.

Yeah, it's speaking to the boy in them and it's repeating the mother son dynamic, which is the least sexy thing. And you know, I think it's like we hear, we learn about things like nonviolent communication, and it can help us. If you're going from like just yelling at each other with no heart to a formula that can help. But I have this friend who they took a nonviolent communication course. But then the husband was demanding that she can only speak to him in this formula. So instead of just being able to speak from her heart, she had to like every single thing, like, put it in the. When you did this, I feel this. And my request is. And she was like, I feel like I can't have a conversation with him anymore because it needs to go through this filter now. That again, it took them to a certain point, but it can't take them to that next point.

It's like training wheels. And I think it's really important to understand evolution. Our own evolution is that things that help us in one phase can hinder us in another phase. It's not a static equation. It's not like, do this, this equals this, this equals this. These forms, these structures, processes. Knowledge itself really is designed to me in its essence. And its purest function is designed as a platform to go beyond form or to integrate into being to where we're not having to calculate something. It's a tool. It's almost like it's an evolutionary tool. All forms of knowledge and processing, they're tools to help us on our evolution as evolving souls to come more and more into being and into our God self, which is the infinite intelligence. It's the intelligence that the heart already has. And so that's why we can use it and have discernment of when to use it and know when to discard it so we don't keep using it. You know what I mean? Or it doesn't become a limitation to us. And what I've noticed is as we evolve through different stages of relationship, just loosely stated, like going from like codependency to independence to interdependence to union, is that at each phase, something, there's like a death and rebirth that happens. There's things that, for example, I would say in my relationship, in my union, maybe my last relationship or the one before, I would receive more value from nonviolent communication. Conscious language, like checking in. Do you resonate? Are you open to this? I'll share. I'll ask for permission. But now that would be a step backwards for me because I'm in such a state of union and intimacy and knowingness of my partner that I don't want. And it's obvious. Does that make sense? And it's like, I think it's important to acknowledge where we're at, but also to acknowledge where we're going or the truth, really. And the truth is we are in a transparent field of consciousness. We're connected beyond our five senses. And anybody who's tuned into their heart, which we're not always tuned into our heart, but anybody who is, we don't have to. The information of what. What would be respectful and honorable and alignment with your heart and your soul and what you would need. That information's obvious.

Yeah. It feels like when you tell me, tune into your heart and share how you feel. I feel like what a lot of women feel is the times that we've spoken from our hearts, we have been rejected. We have been told we are too emotional, or, you know, we're overthinking it, or it's a lot around our emotions being too much. So, yeah, that's a. Yeah.

My thought about that is like, that's insane, right? Just as an idea and you know, women, to the women out there, if. And I mean insane, that that's like pure. I say that from pure love to obliterate the idea, the notion that you could be too much. And so on a level of desire going back to like, how do you manifest a man who's in his masculine in this way or can ravish you, or in this case, how do you manifest a guy that is not thinking you're too much? It starts with you, right? And I just want to say, like, honestly, genuinely, I've never said that to my partner. I've never implied it. I've never made her feel that way. And this is not a goal. It's miraculous. Perhaps I've never even thought that. But that's because I know who I am. And so women, ultimately, their spirit wants that, wants to be held in that way. And that's where you. Giving that level of standard, deepening in that level of standard for your own heart and for your own being is what will allow you to receive. Manifest that or manifest more of that through your man. And so in that sense, like I was talking to my. My. My lady the other day, and I realized this in hindsight, that I'M living what I'm saying, you know, even in my own inner feminine. I was speaking to her and she asked me something connected to my heart. But I felt like she wasn't really listening to me, even though she was and she was saying the right things. Kind of like it was like she would be like the stereotypical man in this example, right? Something was occupying her space. And I, like, the fire aspect of my heart came up in the moment because she was saying, I'm with you. And this is what I would say to ladies. I want you to feel this. It's not demanding, like, in a controlling way, but it's piercing. And I said, look, look, I have compassion and I understand something's occupying your attention. I'm like, but do not ask me to share my heart when you're not here with my heart. Right now. I'm willing to come meet me here. Do you feel what I'm saying? That's a level of standard that is coming from this. I know I'm not too much, right? And what I suggest to women, not to be demanding, but that level of self, love will command that. So then it's not just your words like, hey, I'd like you to be more present with me, or, oh, I understand, you know, things are really, really difficult at work. It's like, then you're able to be compassionate with why the man is, whatever, struggling with being present, and maybe he's, you know, having a hard time at work. You're able to be compassionate, which is like the, you know, the blue pill and truthful at the same time. Red pill. Like, also, let's not get lost on what the truth is here and, and what you desire. And I think that's where, you know, we lose power sometimes on one or both ends if we don't have the right dose of compassion and understanding to even, you know, allow things to breathe, but also hold the truth at the same time, which is like, you know, and as a man, that's how I be with myself. So if my woman said to me, you know, babe, I would love for you to be more present with me or more present with me when we're making love. And especially if it's something that was a pattern, I would love myself in that. But what I would not do is give a whole list of excuses, I don't do that. And. And if that sounds appealing to a woman to be with a man like that, what I'm hopefully illuminating here, and we can go to both sides of this is like, well, who do you have to be. What standard do you have to have? How do you need to hold your emotions such that you manifest a man that is honoring you and reflecting back that same level of honor?

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Well, I think the answer to that question, which is one thing, even if it's uncomfortable, that brings you to a sense of peace, is it's very difficult to answer, how much further can you go if you're still in resistance and you're justifying your resistance? Like, well, I tried to say that before, or I would try to say that, but I know it's so. It's like it almost feels like I'm a moment in time, if I were to just simplify. It's like if you have one moment of putting yourself out there fully, which is a bold statement, and you're not holding back, you're not watering down, you're not hiding things, and you just, like, from your heart, express yourself fully and you're devoted to that, then it becomes abundantly clear very fast the alignment and what's possible and what's worth even working on until you've hit that point, you're also looking at the reflective mirror of who you're being. Does that make sense? And so. And that's what has us get, I think, confused or caught in these states of, how much more should I invest in this? You know, at what point am I pushing this? At what point can I see? Is this just not here available? I think it takes a radical level of integrity to know that, okay, I gave it all full spectrum. Not just my words, but this person has felt my heart, what this means to me, felt my spirit, felt, and my devotion, then you can see, because now you're not just looking at the reflection of things going on inside you, and you create the greatest opportunity and invitation for that person to see. Do you value these things to the same level that I do? Not just by your words, but by your actions, by your devotion? Then I think you have incredible discernment and be like, okay, it's not. It's. This is. I've. I've said it all but so many times, including myself. I. It's. It's so common to think I said it all. It's like, yeah, but did you say it in the way that you're saying it to me right now? I said that to a new client recently, and he was trying to convince me. At first. He's like, but I. But I said that. But I told her. But I was like, but did you share with her in the way that you're sharing with me right now? And he's like, probably not. I was like, probably not. He's like, okay, not. I was like, so you don't know what the outcome is, but that way that we trick ourselves like that and thinking that we were all in meaning, like, felt, heard, understood, felt, and we're not holding anything back. That's when we can be more at peace. Like, in this gentleman's example, if he's going to decide to leave the relationship or at least see, like, okay, where are you at? What are we working with here? Is this even worth investing in? But that, that's a. I think that That's. You have to be really honest with ourselves that we are. And, like, sometimes we get the words right, but then, like, we're not really transmitting what's in our heart, so we're not actually leaving it all on the table. So I'm not one for trying to force things or trying to make things. And there is a real thing of like, hey, this is just not an alignment. It's not worth it. This person's ceiling is my floor. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, I'm not going to spend all this effort just to get in the game. It's not worth it. You'll know that when you know you've really left it all on the table.

Is there a time that Chelsea or any previous partners have been able to speak in a way from their heart that really resonated with you and inspired change and action?

Yeah, I appreciate, like, any heart communication, but what comes to me, and I think this is valuable for people to hear, for women to hear, and for men to hear. I appreciate pure fire. It actually feels like love to me, right? So not only do I not resist that, I actually appreciate it. It feels like honor to me. And so, yes, I have experienced that. And, like, when that energy, which is only one expression of love, right.

Comes through my partner, like, what was an example? Like, was she in a rage around something or.

I wouldn't say rage, but passionately reflecting something to me that was true to her that involved me, and I was like, oh, got it, got it.

How did you not get defensive? Because I feel like men often, when they feel that anger, that rage, that fire of women, their guard goes up.

But this is the thing that we can have fun, like, picking this apart like scientists. And I say that because there's what you're saying and there's who you're being, and the who you're being part is you can feel it, but it's invisible. Right? And what I'm saying is just if I can try to make this scientific somewhat, that the potential of someone being defensive lowers to the degree that you raise the heat on how much you're actually communicating from the purest fire in your heart, and that's something that's energetic. It's very difficult when you're penetrating or even if you're expressing rage or something, but it's moving through the heart and through this vulnerability and through this acceptance, how it hits the other person energetically, it makes a massive difference how much it's in the heart, and that's why? For example, even if it's coming from love, that you're like, mostly in your fire, but then 20% of your energy doesn't want to hurt the other person's feelings. Ironically, that 20% of resistance makes it harder to digest what you're saying. But somebody who's more purely in a state of, like, rage, even, there's just less susceptibility to being defensive. I think where defensiveness gets encouraged energetically is when someone's not fully in their heart. They're not being whole with their communication, they're actually holding back. And when somebody's purely like, and no matter what the emotion is in their heart, it's almost renders you silent. It's very hard to be. Yeah, but. You know what I mean? Because of the buts. The defensiveness is trying to find someplace in you. It hooks into whatever resistance is inside you, and it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, but, but. Or like, let me. Let me close. But if you're like, I'm here, I'm open. And as I said, it doesn't matter if it's joy, inspiration, or rage. It's very difficult energetically, or it's a lot more difficult for someone to be.

Defensive because they can feel the love that's moving through that. And, you know, and it's not so much about the language of, like, don't say you statements. I'm sure there were you statements in there, but it was still coming from this place of I love you so much that you did. Whatever. The thing is that the language was such less importance. Whereas when we're in our heads around, like, make it about how I feel, don't make it about them. Then there's that wall which is felt, and the other person mirrors the wall. And then there's just continual separation.

And then it seems incredibly complicated. And it's like, oh, my God, we're stuck. Like, Chelsea and I, we don't get stuck, you know? And what I'm describing here as I reflect is one of the favorite things for me about our relationship is we don't have to get the words right because we have a foundation of safety and honor in our field that it's like, you know what the fuck I'm trying to say? Do you know what I mean? Like, don't listen to words. This is. It's the meaning, you know, what's the intent? It's so loud. It's so clear. And we're so much about that that we don't have to be like, be so attentive to our words. It's like, it's. There's, you know, a trust in like, the intention of what's being spoken, you know, and that's why we don't get that distracted or get lost in the sauce on like, oh, but you said this, you know, or you said that, and that wasn't true. It's like, okay, whatever, you know, where are we going? What do we want? What needs to be served here? And that takes a lot of courage. But it's possible. It takes a lot of courage and it takes a lot of trust. But trust is an interesting thing, right? It's like, how do we actually develop trust? We don't develop trust through control. That's how the ego tries to create trust. It's like, if I can control this, then I'll feel safe and I'll trust. But that's not the truth. You can't relax if you create trust through being in control. Trust gets created actually from feeling safe in the unknown, from resting in something else. And I think that's a very important ingredient for relationships is that we. It, it's, it's such an abstract concept. It's very palpable in the feeling of it or the absence of it. But it's such. It's kind of like the word fear, or I have this block coming up or this fear. Sometimes we get so abstract and disconnected from the feeling of what we're saying. But trust is another one of those things. We just try to oversimplify it. Like, I don't trust or I'm not feeling safe. And it's like, but do you actually know? Are you on a pathway to getting to trust? Do you even know the way there? How do you do that? Or if you're rebuilding trust, how do you get there? What is it? Right side note, but not a side note, because I feel like. Because trust and safety is at the foundation of relationships and relationships being able to thrive, I think it's worthy of investigating and really prioritizing. Like, what is it that's going to take us deeper and deeper into this sense of safety and trust that we seek? And when I, I. It's not control, it's not the mind that doesn't allow our hearts to relax. Somehow, some way, however, crawl, walk, stumble, fly, trip slowly, quickly, quantumly, one directions towards love.

If there was some sort of lie in a relationship where the trust was ruptured, what does the pathway of rebuilding trust look like?

I think again, getting to the heart of the lie is a piece of it I'm only starting there because it's the piece that usually gets left out. Because the other piece, which is almost like the spirit of it, would be like the truth. It's the integrity. That's where the power is. That's where communication can flow. And so if that's been disrupted and then one tries to come back into integrity, I think the heart piece and this. This is investigating, like, within oneself or within a relationship even, you know, what was really at the heart of this action. Like, what was going on inside your heart. From a true place of care. And care and compassion doesn't mean agreement. Care and compassion doesn't mean you're endorsing bad behavior. It just means, like, let's see what's here. Because the disconnect or out of integrity appears as the behavior. So it's not that the behavior is not relevant or shouldn't be tended to. It's just that the behavior that broke the trust is a side effect of a disconnect. But what's at the heart of the disconnect. And maybe, you know, maybe you start there, maybe you wind up there, but that is a key ingredient even for an individual to try to trust themselves again and be like, okay, like, why? Why? Like, what was happening deeper inside? You go deep, because that's where the love's trying to enter. And that's really the basis of where the healing's gonna happen. That allows you then to take the impulse of your integrity, you know, and create the new behavior in a way that's gonna actually sink in and be sustainable to where you're actually trusting yourself. Even. So, I mean, I could go deeper into that, but in essence, getting to the heart of why. Because if you're asking why and you're only. And you're in upset, then you're not gonna. You're. It's a different question. It's like, why would you do that? Because it basically saying is like, that was wrong. It's like, okay, you're right, it was wrong. Okay, I shouldn't have done that. Okay, now what? Now what? You got to kind of get past that layer which is still the defense, like the protection, or trying to come back to a sense of safety and power and into, like, what's really at the heart of this, you know, because.

Ultimately we lie because we believe that truth won't be accepted and that if we tell the truth, we will be abandoned, which is, you know, eventually the light comes out and creates that thing. So, you know, speaking about infidelity, because I would Say, in the state of California, it's the number one cause of divorce. And I feel a lot of people, you know, when. When something like that happens, it's about the lie component. And I think it's also the shame as well that that person carries a lot of shame. So they don't know how to say it, so of course they're lying. And it just, you know, creates this dynamic where it's. It's very hard to rebuild from. And we've interviewed different people on the podcast, and some were and some weren't. So I'm curious your take on this and. Yeah, and even questioning monogamy and relationships. I know you and Chelsea are in monogamous relationship. We've briefly spoke about this, but sometimes it feels like the solution to infidelity is just to be open, because then that fear is no longer there. But I know a lot of people's deepest desire is not that.

Yeah, I wouldn't say there's. There's a one solution, but it's like, again, it's like, why. Getting to the heart of it, like, why, you know, what is it that created the behavior? Right. Because that gives you the code of, like, how do you actually restore trust? And, you know, somebody lies in a relationship, and this could easily be overly spiritualized and beat ourselves up with. But in most cases, maybe every case, if you have a relationship going along and then there's infidelity, that happens. And so there's this. There's a lie there. In most cases I've seen both people were lying on some level, maybe in different ways. Maybe this person is not cheating, but lying to themselves or not actually expressing their needs or expressing their truth. And maybe over. Over time, it accumulates to this disconnect, this disruption of intimacy in the field. And then maybe one person's reaction to that or is cheating, but to the victim who got cheated on, it's like if you look back and like, really look deeply to gain. This is part of gaining back your own power, which also gained back a sense of trust. Because it's like in the distrust, there's also a distrust of yourself. Right. Because you're like, oh, I had my heart open. I was in my innocence and I was trusting. And see, it betrayed me. I was being truthful. This person was not. There is something valuable I found to being honest and really seeing where were we not being truthful to ourselves as part of the dynamic. That doesn't mean that cheating's okay or that you should tolerate that, but it is another part of gaining back your own power. And when I've worked with people on this, there's always something there. It's like, track back. Maybe it's in hindsight, you look, oh, there was like, 50 different moments before the cheating happened where you're in this communication dynamic, you're in this relational dynamic where, okay, maybe they're not being completely honest, but you're not being completely honest either about how you feel, about what you're tolerating, about what your needs are. Do you get what I'm saying? And that accumulates over a period of time. And what I'm saying is that that's also part of the reclamation of trust in oneself and being able to build towards even trusting another, you know, because then you don't feel. You don't feel like as much of a victim if you can see with compassion, of course, because it's not like you're trying to betray yourself, but you don't feel like as much of a victim if you can kind of see more deeply. Like, oh, this is just. This is where I'm growing. And I was afraid to say this at this point or to express my needs or to stand up for myself or to speak my truth in these instances. And that made me available for. See what I'm saying? So that's another key piece of it.

Yeah, I definitely think that any energy that one person feels in the relationship, the other one does too. It's just whether it's conscious or not.

Right.

And often I feel people cheat because it's their way of feeling, something that they don't know how to bring into the relationship, so they feel like they must get it from somewhere else. And some couples are able to then be super honest with each other and use that as a way to really. Like, we had Rachel and Johan come on the podcast, and that was their story, and it really brought them closer into this beautiful union. And then there's other relationships that don't work. And kind of a theme that I've been noticing and what you're sharing is it's really dependent on the partner. So let's say you are in a partnership and, you know, you listen to this podcast and you dive deep and that person just isn't meeting you there. At what point would you say you would know? And I know there's so much nuance in it, but, like, at what. What questions can we ask ourselves to know if it's worth walking away from? Especially A lot of couples have kids and they're like, I can't Just walk away because he's not meeting me. That would be selfish of me. So at what point, you know, that's a story.

Yeah, I mean, this kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier about showing up fully to be able to see, oh, this is that point, you know, because even like this person's not meeting me, it's like, okay, well, why? And if you can get past the why, like, I'm upset about the fact that you're not meeting me and actually get to the heart of it, then you'll see. You'll see what you're working with. You'll see if it's something that is a point of growth or if it's something that, that let's say you get to the heart of. Okay, the reason this person's not meeting you is because they have some particular fear. Then it's like, well, maybe that starts to be hopeful now because if it's a fear, then it's not real. It could be overcome. But then take it a step further. It's like, okay, well, you have that fear. How much do you want this relationship? And how much devotion do you have to overcoming that fear? That's another really good question. Because you could have the same value and be like, oh, yeah, we're on the same page. But maybe you're like, like, I'm completely devoted to this and willing to do whatever. And the other person might be like, ah, this makes sense. You see, there's a misalignment, right? So these are kind of some of the nuances of a misalignment. And so to me, I'm first aiming to get to the bare bones truth of like, what's actually happening here, what's on the table here. Because then you'll see what's possible. You can see your deal breaker zones. You can see, is this even worth working on? You know, is this something that we're both actually on the same page, but you just have some fear, but your devotion to this love is overriding the fear. So then it's like, okay, we're just growing together. Or is this something that your devotion to your fear or whatever is more important to you than this? In which case then it's like, well, there's nothing really there even worth moving towards.

Yeah, I think a lot of relationships, they don't really know why they are together.

Yeah.

You know, it's just. They just are because they're used to it, because they have kids, because it seems too complicated to get a divorce. You know, And I was recently at this retreat, this S Factor retreat, and I was talking to all these, like, beautiful women, and most of them were moms, like empty nesters. And it was a lot of the same story of, like, my husband and I haven't had sex in two years, and, you know, all of these different dynamics and then a lot of.

Just two years.

Yeah.

I heard a clip yesterday from the Impact Theory. This woman was being interviewed. She said something about a sex recession. And I was like, oh, it's true. People were like, not having sex for a year, two years. Anyway, Chelsea and I were chirping on that.

Well, it's actually this generation is the first generation that's having less sex than the generation before because everything's online. And, you know, people are just like, oh, I don't want to put in the effort. And, you know, but it was interesting to witness because, yeah, for some of these women, they took it as like, well, I'm going to inspire through my feminine for him to show up and, you know, and work on ourselves more. And then for other people, it's just, well, then maybe this isn't the right person. And I think that's. That's really what a lot of women struggle with, is like, can I change him? The big question.

Yeah. And I think the simplicity of that, though, is starting from not needing to change him. Because then you can be in a perfect synchronicity with where he is. And if there is an alignment and he actually wants to change and his motivation for change is meeting your motivation for him to change, then it's not going to feel like you're changing him. It's like. Like, no, this is your desire. You know, so we have things like that come up in our relationships sometimes where it. I'll even be talking about me and my desire. And I've said to her on a couple occasions, I'm like, just to be clear, this is not just my desire. It's your desire. I'm like, it's you. It's whatever it is that I'm wanting, you're wanting. And she'll be like, yeah, because you.

Becoming that will make her want you more, which is what you want. And it's like a mutual.

There's an alignment there. And in that energy, the heart and spirit can resonate with that because there's no judgment there. It's not like somebody's not trying to change you. It's like, oh, no, this is an energy that's unfolding in you, which means it is you and you're becoming it, you're desiring it. And if the other person's also desiring that same thing, then when you're encouraging it, you're not trying to change someone. It's not coming across like you're not okay as you are. And that's how we can be loving, but not settle or not use love against ourselves and be like, well, if I'm in a state of love, then I can just tolerate not having my desires be fulfilled here. That's how I would say you can kind of balance that.

So what would be the next step? Let's say the woman tells her husband, you know, from my heart, I deeply desire to just have that beautiful day spark that we had at the beginning of our relationship where we couldn't keep our hands off of each other and we had more spontaneity and fun and lightheartedness. And I want to continue making these memories with you and having incredible sex. And he's like, I want that too. And it's like, okay, now what?

Like, yeah, I think, I think the, you know, one of the. The things that can help to answer that question or to even have a fruitful pursuit towards that spark is you need permission to be. To be unconditionally, right? Almost like, put the relationship aside for a moment, right? And instead of focusing so much on trying to create the spark, which can help. So I'm not saying don't do that. I'm just saying do more of whatever it is I'm about to describe here, which would be create an environment that is conducive to spark coming alive inside of you. And that's where I said, we'll find out what's at the heart of it. You almost have to put your own desire aside for a moment to truly be in service to the heart and the soul, because that's where you can unlock what is hopefully already there. And with a spark, a lot of times it's more so about allowing it, unlocking it, than it is about generating it. Like, generating can take you so far. And sometimes maybe you just need the generating energy. You do the exercise, you play the game, you do the thing and you're like, cool, the spark's back. And I would complement that with, if not even start of, like, what is it? What's at the heart of this? I'll share something personally. In my. From my last relationship coming into this one, we both had a desire for increased intimacy. Like sexual intimacy, sexual chemistry. I mean, our love life was amazing. And we're both ambitious souls. We're like spiritual Olympians. And so we're like, shoot for the stars. Shoot for the stars. So there's an alignment there. And from my point of view in that equation, I realized at some point that my way of going about it was not going to get me there. And that was when I got in touch with my own heart and my own soul. And I was like, well, without any judgment or performance or being, like, how can I do that? Put that aside for a moment. Let's just go bare bones. Like, where is this primal energy not fully being allowed? And once I discovered a well of that, I put my attention there. I took my attention off of this for a moment. The trying to find more spark. It's not like we didn't have a spark with lots of sparks, you know, flames even, but, you know, leaning into this desire for more. Right. And I found for me, it's like I don't feel completely free in my being. I feel like the. And this was subconscious too. Some of this is in hindsight, I feel like the part of me that's so rooted in faith and knowing in an unexplainable way, like, my faith in general in myself, by myself, within myself, is like, pretty impenetrable. And I trust that, and I trust life deeply, but in relationship with another being there. And I discovered a lot of this along the way. I wasn't feeling completely free, not just like in my self expression and being myself, but this. This huge part of who I am that I can't explain, which is my connection with. With God and my faith. And I was like, oh, that's not fully penetrating through my being in the relationship and in intimacy. And I was like, if I can get to that, that's gonna result in that. And so, you know, I feel like.

A lot of us, I resonate with that of like, I feel connected to God all the time. I'm seeing the numbers, the synchronicities I'm gonna flow with my Dharma. When it comes to relationship, I'm just like, jesus, take the wheel. You know, I have no idea what's going on. And it's like, yeah, how do we have that same level of trust in something greater? Orchestrating all of it.

Yeah. And to tie that into your question to me, a question like, how can I have greater trust? Is a very intelligent question that unlocks more of the spark that's already there. And I'm not saying that's always the case, but often that's the case, especially if you're like, we want spark or the spark we had or the passion. Do you know what I mean? It's like it might be bound up in trust, like, very, very, quite simply. And that's why the space of putting the desire aside, definitely putting the judgment aside, the eagerness aside for a moment, and truly being of service to the heart and the soul and asking a question like, okay, well, why. Why did we lose the spark? Do you feel the energy of that? It's not like we shouldn't have. That's bad. This sucks. We really want it. It's just like, truly, like, why, you know? And I think that in my relationship with Chelsea, it really helps that both of us are more devoted to love than we are the relationship. Which means we're more devoted to each other's souls and what each other's souls and hearts need more than the relationship. Now, that makes up our relationship. But that devotion and that way of being in relationship. Then when we come to a question like, you know, which we haven't, our love life has been on fire and keep expanding.

What did she say? Deep throating. What was her.

Yeah, I don't remember.

Like something was super raunchy and beautiful. I loved it. But. Yeah, but I think you guys are willing to. You haven't had to, but walk away if that's what love is requiring you to do.

Exactly. And that right there, and we get down to the roots of this is at the source of a lot of tension and it could be in the unconscious. With my new client I was telling you about, you know, he's working on trust in his relationship and, you know, mainly from her past experience, not necessarily from him violating her trust. And he's like, wanting to. But what was at the. One of the cores of his resistance was the fear, the unwillingness to walk away, if that's what the clarity revealed. So then it's like we're trying to get clarity. We're trying to get clarity. We're trying. It's confusing. I'm confused. That's what he's like, I'm confused. I'm confused. I was like, step one. Like, you're not confused. You're afraid. See, closer to truth. And he's like, you're right. And like, so don't complicate this. That's the tough love part, right? That's the masculine expression of love. It's like, like, you know, I. I feel your pain and what's underneath the confusion and I feel for you. And the truth mirror. Like you're afraid. Because if you believe you're confused and you're like, oh, you're weighing this and that. And then you. Then when you think about speaking your truth to her, even unconsciously, like, I've done that before. And it's like, but have you? Right? It's like you're, you're afraid, you know, and so at least being willing to try on it doesn't matter if it's comfortable, it could be terrifying. Are you willing to walk away if that's the truth? If there is an intelligent. If there's an answer somewhere, even if God's got the answer, you know there's an answer because you're seeking it. What is true here? What's the best thing to do? That's all we're ever trying to do, is to do the best we can. Your willingness to permeate that as an option, even just willingness to even look at it, to even let it into you, even if it's scary, actually brings more clarity instantly. Because otherwise you're fighting that tension. Maybe it's low level in the background and it's faded, you can't hardly feel it, or it's in the foreground and you're like feeling super tense. That is a point of tension. And you can penetrate that with truth, with your heart. Truth. Just meaning, like, would you agree that, like you're seeking the best thing here? Would you agree that you don't know what it is? Yes. Would you agree that you're afraid? Yes. Cool. Don't complicate that part. Are you willing to walk away if you knew that that was the best thing for both of you? You sometimes that's the thing that creates the space to even be, like, have a more fruitful even investigation or effort, or get to that point of clarity that you're seeking. Like, is this worth being in? And I think that if you're not at these core levels that I'm trying to describe, then it creates the illusion of confusion or complexity and makes it seem like it's way more complex than it is.

And I think that's why a lot of people avoid going to therapy or coaching, because they're afraid of what might happen if I know the truth, which might be I would have to walk away or even sitting with medicine of, well, what if it tells me me and this person are not meant to be with each other? I wouldn't be able to handle that. So let me not drink the medicine. But that's, you know, the fear of the truth.

Right? And the result of the fear of the truth is we don't Trust ourselves, and then we don't trust ourselves. Then when we come into relationships, it's dictating the level of trust we can emanate and bring into the relationship. So it's like, we don't get away from ourselves anyway. So we might as well burn in the uncomfortability of, like, you know, what we perceive that the truth is gonna, like, hurt or might create pain, we might as well choose that pathway because it has the upside potential of clarity, of discernment, of power of a good life. Then to avoid that in a predictable spiraling down, of less empowered, less trust, more confused, more complicated. It's the sense of this. This is when things, like, feel endless. It's like, why does it feel like, you know, endless? That's why with my client, he was like, I could feel him. He's like, oh, but I've tried that. Oh, I tried that. We had that conversation. And like, you're still holding on. You're not willing to let go. That's why it's like, it seems endless. Like you're not connected to your own truth because your spirit is resonating with, truly with your intention. With, like, what's the best thing here? That is what you want. Even if you feel like you're dying on the way there. And just admitting that or humbling ourselves to that can release the resistance to it. Because when we have resistance, that's when we get caught in our head and we don't know for sure. Or we're like, I gave it all, but then I still have doubt. And then it's like, then we're plagued with doubt and uncertainty versus clarity and, like, peace. Even if it's difficult, you know, there is a sense of peace about arriving at a place where you feel like, you know what? The truth has been revealed here, you know?

And I think the goal of a relationship is not to maintain the relationship at any odds possible, but it's to live in love. And in my own experience, I would rather live alone in truth than in partnership in lie.

Right? Because when you're in a lie and you're not in the truth, then on the surface you might be like, hey, we're in love. But you're not actually experiencing the fullness of love anyway. And I mean, that's what really, that's the big deal about love, is to actually feel it, experience it. Otherwise, it's just a concept. Being with somebody doesn't mean that love's flowing. You know, to me, that feels like prison. That feels like death. More. More so than being alone does.

Absolutely.

You know what I mean? It's like, if this is not. Like, if we're not actually here, what's the point?

Yeah. For me now, being single, I'm like, oh, I'm a love devotee. Like, the purpose of my life is love. Whereas in my marriage, I actually never used those terminologies. I never felt that. Because now I'm tuned into the actual spirit of. Which is far beyond relationship, marriage, or any form of institution.

100%. And I think that the institutions and the relationship constructs and the marriage and all the things that we do, aren't they all, on some level designed to try to get us to love? So it's like, why not start with love? Or like I've said, don't try to contain love. Let go of love.

Let go of attachment.

Yeah, let go of attachment. You know which attachment comes from? Disconnection and separation. You know, from. From love or from. Like when we. When we know that we contain that which we're seeking, like in essence, then it doesn't make sense to be attached to something. Right. Then we're in a state of abundance instead of in a state of lack of. And abundance manifests in many different forms. And when we're truly not understanding that, but in the actual state of allowing that, then in that state of detachment, then it's like love, which is in here, is just here. So then it can transform, it can shape shift, change forms, but there's a continuum because the love is still there. And so then on a relational level, on a human level of how we want to express love in a relationship, then you can manifest, design, create whatever a relationship that's an expression of that love. See, so there's no loss there. And because there's no loss, part of attachment is the perception of loss. But it's just that it's a perception of loss. Just because we change the form of something, whatever is essential is essential. So there is not an actual loss there. So, yes, we can, you know, love that and grieve that and, you know, something about that's natural to our human experience. We can be compassionate, love that and grieve that without believing that there's a loss. Because as soon as we believe there's a loss, that's when we're attaching. It's literally like we're holding on to something and we cannot see.

Yeah.

That whatever we're seeking, we have, you know, both inside of us and even have, in terms of whatever manifestation, you know, another partner, for example, and if we knew, let's be honest, if we actually knew, not understood, if we knew that, then we would transition from one expression of love to the other. More like little children just be like, oh, it's like, I'm playing with this toy. It's awesome. And I'm not trying to de. Romanticize or take the sacredness out of relationship, but on an energetic level, it's like if we knew what is true, which is abundance, which is love is inside of us, then we would. We wouldn't be attached. And to me, that's my more grounded way of understanding and getting to a space of detachment versus, like, trying to act like you don't care about something or let me detach from it, but it's like you deeply care. I think true detachment comes from revelation, comes from realization that you know, oh, I am the love that I'm seeking. So I wouldn't. When you know that. Not if. When you know that you are being filled with that, you're not feeling the lack of love at the same. You're just not. Our egos can't fathom that sometimes because.

Like, no, you actually create more space for it.

Exactly.

Yeah. I've directly experienced this myself. So, ladies, wherever you are, know that love is everywhere and it's inside of you. And sometimes we have to be willing to walk away from that which is not love, for us to experience the wholeness that is love. Which brings us back to God, which is really what we're all really desiring here, is to merge with the universal love consciousness through another.

Exactly. And being willing to walk away from something that's not in alignment is love. That is love. So if I. Look, look, most loving thing you do for both people, 100%. I think we'd all agree just on a basic human level, it's like you don't want to really talk to somebody who doesn't want to talk to you. Do you know what I mean? Your mind might be like, man, no, I do. But like, you don't you want to talk with somebody who wants to talk to you, you know, so it's the same thing with love. It's like it has to be beneficial for both parties and all of life when we are true to ourselves and when we love ourselves and when we love ourselves enough to allow and to do what, what is truly serving our souls, that there is no lack in that. It's not like, well, if I do that, then you're going to lose. Or if this leads me over, out of this relationship, it is literally impossible from the place I'm saying it. For the other person to lose, it has to be a simultaneous gain because it's anchored in truth and truth is anchored in abundance. Now, it might take a little bit of time. That's. We're largely governing how much time it's going to take for us to allow the love that's present in the case of a relationship allow another form to come in, you know, and we've all experienced that before. It's like, oh, my God, I'm dying. This is the worst thing ever. I'll never recover from this. And then you're like. And you're like, oh, my God, I'm so grateful for that. I'm so happy that happened. You know, like, that's. We've all experienced that.

Always the glow up on the other side.

Yeah. And I think over time, and this probably gets into a little bit of another conversation of like, spiritual awakening over time. That knowingness of that doesn't really leave you, even if you haven't experienced it or seen it. And so you eventually transcend the fear of death because that's what it can feel like to the self. It's like deep pain, loss. I'm dying. You know what I mean? And then rebirth. I'm filled with life again. You know, if you. You die in rebirth enough times and eventually you start to trust it. And then when you're at the.

You're like, ooh, a death.

Exactly. Yeah. Like, my life was already awesome, so I can't see yet.

Thank you, God. Next initiation.

It just means it's about to get more awesome.

Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much for sharing all of your wisdom with us today. And where can listeners connect with you further?

Oren Harris, O R E N H A R R I Srinharris on Instagram, also on Facebook. And then my website is orrinharris.com beautiful.

Well, thank you again for being there and thank you all so much for tuning in. If you love this episode, please leave a review for it in the itunes store and we will send you my womb meditation. This is a meditation to connect to your inner womb wisdom, which we spoke a lot about kind of today. It's that inner feminine knowing. So leave a review for the podcast, take a screenshot and email it over to me@saharaiamsaharose.com and I will send you that meditation. You can find all of that in his links in the show notes. Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you in the next one.

Jam.