551: The Sneaky Ways Codependency Is Ruining Your Relationships with Mark Groves

You know, there's these funny reels I see sometimes it's like what life feels like when you don't, like, have a crush on someone. And it's, like, so boring and stuff that I think a lot of us even find our entertainment in it. You know, the entertainment, like, oh, my God, did they watch my stories? Like, oh, my God, like, we matched on this app and I can speak for women. It's like the fantasy. Like, we love it, you know, and it gives us this maybe, like, this little pep in our step and, like, something to. Feels like something to live for. But it's like. But that's still the codependency. I have something to live for if this person that I don't even know might potentially like me. Because it's still that Disney princess within us that just wants to be chosen, right?

And really, we've taught people that if you're not chosen, if you're not chosen, there's not evidence of the recognition of your value, right? So even relationally, we say, and then.

We date this person, right? You know, you. You who I have put on the pedestal of, like, my value of myself, if you don't choose me, then this is evidence that my dad never loved me. Like, that is literally what we do.

Same exactly. You know, And I always say to people that when you lose something that you place your value in is to remind you that it doesn't live there.

I'm the one I've been waiting for. Welcome back to the Highest Self podcast. My name is Sahara Rose, and on this podcast, I love to take spirituality and matters of the heart and make it really modern, grounded, fun, and relatable into your life. For me, the spiritual journey has been the journey back into love. My own divorce and heartbreak taught me more about myself than anything in my whole entire life. And I would definitely say I was a spiritual person before, but it wasn't until I got my heart shattered a million places, crying, grieving, releasing, healing, that I was like, oh, shit, this is really what the spiritual journey is about. And I would say nothing else brings you to your knees than heartbreak. And I would say right now, as a collective, we're all going through it whether you're in a relationship or not. Because, you know, back in the day, it was like, kind of like, ah, you liked this person. They live in your town, you get married, you have kids. You don't question it too much. It was really clear what the roles were. Whereas now our society has shifted so much, we are more isolated than ever before. So this one person is kind of meant to be our emotional companion, romantic partner, financial partner, business partner, someone we raise our children with. And we're also always supposed to have fun and dive deep into spirituality. And we're both on separate growth journeys, which should be growing at the same acceleration, at the same time in the same location. And have great communication, but also really good sexual compatibility. Like, it's a tall fucking order, you know, And I think a lot of us are struggling with it because, first of all, none of us have seen it. You know, we've all come from, you know, looking at our parents, relationships where there was a lot of unspoken stuff under the rug. And we're kind of, you know, grew up watching Full House being like, I want that family and are very, quite far from it. And is that actually what we really want? And I think the opportunity right now is so many of us have stepped into, hey, I don't want to have a shady 9 to 5 corporate job that I feel zero connection with. I'm going to create my own career. Hey, I don't want to just go to this church because my family's always gone to this church. I want to find my own spiritual practice. Practice. Well, I feel the next invitation is looking at our relationships and redefining what do I actually want relationship for, and what are the patterns and limiting beliefs and blind spots I'm coming in with? And how can we be honest about the ways that both of us are shifting what both of our expectations are as they change and grow and see if we can continue to support each other, to be living our highest selves, to be stepping into our dharmas, while also recognizing that in relationship there is an element of sacrifice that naturally does happen without also going into patterns of codependency, which we're going to be talking about on this podcast. So there's so much nuance when it comes to relationship, and I feel like it teaches us more about ourselves and our soul paths than anything else. And someone who I have been learning about relationships from for, like, five years now, since I met him back in, I think, 2018. We were both speaking at a Wanderlust conference, and I met him, and I'm just like, oh, my God, like, literally besties. We could talk for hours. And he is. You probably have followed him on social media before. Create the love. And what I love about everything he shares is, first of all, he's a straight man, so it's very helpful opinion to have or, like, tell us your ways you can talk. What do you Guys think, you know, but on top of that, he, you know, he's a. He's a father, he's a husband, and he really is. And he's also gone through his own breakup and coming back together with his wife. And they just came out with a book together called Liberated Love, all about codependency. And here on this podcast, we've talked about narcissism, we've talked about people pleasing, but we haven't really talked about sometimes our side of the street, you know, how. How maybe how we were able to even be a fit to be in these relationships. And I feel like that's the next stage of that healing journey of, okay, we can recognize those patterns in other people, but what are those patterns? Still within myself that makes me continue to choose the same archetype of person, which then affirms this belief that everyone is like that, or if we're in relationship, continue to be in this pattern that's not serving us. And then one day getting to this place that we're like, I'm Pat, packing my bags and leaving, but instead giving the opportunity for the relationship to have a death and rebirth within itself with that same person. And before we drop into this episode, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're listening to this podcast. That is the best way to stay up to date on the latest episodes. We've got this in video format, so if you're just hearing my voice, be sure to also watch our fabulous outfits on video as well on Spotify, YouTube or the Apple Store. This is the best way to stay in the flow with future conversations and also allows the podcast to reach more people. So hit subscribe so I can keep vibing with you on all future episodes. Now let's get into this one. So without further ado, let's welcome Mark Groves to the Highest Self Podcast.

Oh, hi.

Oh, hi.

Beautiful intro.

Well, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited we are reunited after too many years. We've been on some separate journeys and I'm so excited to. To be able to come back at this point in both of our lives, but to also witness just your utter transformation and, and what I, you know, I was just like, damn, I can't wait to talk to her because there's some fire. And what you said about breakups, I think is like, that was a catalyst to my own transformation. At the original part of my journey of wanting to understand relationships was why am I so good at talking about everything about my feelings? I was in Sales. I was really good at sales. It didn't make sense from, from a skill set perspective. So I thought there's something more going on here. And I now am a firm believer that there is probably no more potent energy of transformation than heartbreak, 100%.

And it's something that I used to be like. Like when I was in it, I'm like, oh, I wish no one has to experience this. And now I'm like, I wish you do, you know, because it teaches you so much. And I hope that from that heartbreak you're able to, you know, create art from it in whichever way. And I love how you were able to come back together with your now wife and write this book. So I want to talk about codependency because I think most of us wouldn't like openly identify as being codependent. Like we think of a codependent person as like a hyper super people pleaser, no sense of boundaries, no sense of self. However, a lot of us, including myself, I recognize, had codependent tendencies. Especially that's the way a lot of us women have been taught to relate.

Right?

We were taught that a relationship is dependence on a man. And even men have been taught a relationship is to provide for her, which are these kind of like archaic structures of financial bondage, which was what marriage was based on. And now even though it's not like that, we're still kind of operating from that in the back burner of like, yeah, we want true sacred union, conscious love. But there's still a lot of codependency there. So can you share first of all, like, how would you define codependency? And how can we recognize that?

Yeah, it's such a beautiful point in time because we're really, a lot of us are excavating old world relational skills which marriage, you know, you alluded to that marriage was not about love, you know, mostly historically. And there's a book by Stephanie Coons called the History of Marriage. And she essentially breaks it down that like really marriage was about getting more in laws. So we use the skills that we needed to keep that type of relationship together are not the skills that are going to allow a relationship that's about mutual liberation, mutual expansion to come alive. Especially if I'm afraid if you as a woman, if I'm in a relationship with a woman, and I'm afraid that if she develops her voice, she becomes powerful, I might lose her. Okay, well then let's keep this same power dynamic where relationships were really structured more around male needs. And you actually Being too much, too needy, too whatever is actually a great narrative because then you won't use your voice and you won't leave me. So codependency we define in the book as any relational dynamic where we source safety from something or someone at the expense of our own needs, our own sense of well being. And through that, the really key words are at the expense of. So I think most people can relate. Even if you're in the pattern that we're talking about, where maybe the woman is raised to take care of everybody and forget about her dreams and her passions, et cetera, and then you have the other person in the relationship who is the provider. There's still a sense of self abandonment in both. Because even if I'm the provider, but I'm not, maybe I'm staying in a job I hate. Maybe I feel like there's not a lot of emotional safety in the relationship and there's not space for me to be anything but the person who pays the bills. There can still be a sense of self abandonment. We don't tend to see it on the other side. We think of codependency generally. The term was popularized years ago on the idea of being in a relationship with an addiction. So that's where it really came from. Because a lot of people in relationship with addicts, it is all about the other person. So really, you know, when you look at where this behavior comes from, you know, it's usually when we're kids, you know, not just culturally and from movies and everything, we learn, you know, these romantic stories, quote unquote, or like the famous Jerry Maguire line, you complete me, which everyone romanticized that line, you know, And I remember thinking, like, I gotta take notes. That's a good one. Like, I'm gonna drop that, you know, and I'll let you complete me. That's not hot. If I said that to you now, you'd be like, I want to complete you, like complete yourself. I'd be like, red flag, you know, I need you, you can never leave me is such. Now we'd all be like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Like, I need to have sex every song. Yeah, right.

And you think about. Actually it sounds unromantic, but what a beautiful thing to be. Like, my happiness is actually not dependent on you. However, our relationship actually contributes to my well being. You know, I'm. I'm still great. And if we broke up, that would be devastating for me, but I'd be okay. And there's actually something that's incredibly liberating about that. It doesn't sound romantic. If that was your wedding vow, no one in the audience would be like, I'm sorry, what? You know, unless someone has lost themselves in relationship, forgotten about themselves. The most common thing I see through, I mean, I'm talking. I've seen thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of comments and questions is how do I really. What it comes down to is if it's through a breakup, I forgot about me. I forgot about what I wanted. I forgot about my dreams. We often pursue all those things when we break up. And I'm like, well, what happens if we created relationships that the actual purpose of the relationship is for both people to come alive, for both people to step into their healing, their voice, their potential, that actually, through the material that is created in the friction of our relationships. And this can be done as a single person. This can happen through the way you date. Like turning dating into this adventure of like, what comes up. For me, we actually think when we're dating and we get triggered that there's something wrong with us that we got triggered, but it's actually material that's being asked to work with, you know, and we're like, wow, that. I thought I had that figured out. You know, that person didn't text me back and now I'm cascading. And it's like, what a gift. Like, what a gift. Because you still need to learn that there's something about someone replying to you that is correlated to your self worth and your value. And if you keep pursuing people who don't reply to you, that is coming from a place of believing you're not valuable. And so you start to take pieces of yourself back. And I know this will resonate with you because of the way that you see the world in your work is that I think about it, my wife and I do that, like, what a gift it is that your lineage is trusting you with this. That like, maybe for the first time you're the one who's like, you know, there's some bags that I'm not interested in anymore, and maybe I gave some to my kids. I'll take a few of those back. That like, what a gift that is to think about, you know, so it's called codependency, but it's really, you know, like, what are the frictions that we're experiencing in our relationships and how do we forget about ourselves in these experiences?

So I feel like during the holidays, it's actually the best time to focus on the thing that you've been putting off so for lots of you guys, it's speaking, whether it's one day, creating your own podcast like this, please have me on, or speaking on stages, writing books, creating social media content, creating a personal brand around your website. Wisdom. But for a lot of us, the speaking part is a little bit scary. We stutter, we feel like we're not good at telling stories. We lose people. We just don't have that confidence to show up on camera the way that we want to. But you know that you have an important message to share. So if this is you, I'm really excited that my course, Speak with Soul, is available for 25% off this week only. So this is my flagship course that has taken thousands of people from awkward to confident speaker in just 21 days. I mean, if you check out the testimonials people are like getting on the news, they're launching podcasts, they're getting keynote engagements. It is insane to see the transformations that are happening. People who've never spoken before and also people who are like on their A game, who just take it up a notch. Speaking is my forte. I love doing it. I've been doing this podcast for over seven years and I've learned a thing or two about telling the story. The tone, texture, quality of your voice, and getting your message across, across in a way that anchors into people's hearts. Because we don't need any more of this, like, super cerebral TED talk of.

Like, hey, I have a vision and listen to me point A to B.

But like, instead to actually feel like you're having a conversation with someone in a way that's also educational and resonates. So if you're interested, you're curious, take advantage of 25 off at speak with soulcourse.com with coupon code SWS25. That's speakwithsoulcourse.com with coupon code SWs25. You can find all of that in the show notes. Shake your ass for your ancestors. So I had this thought one day, it was last summer, and I was like, you know what? I love twerk music. I love me some little John Wil n out, but I don't love what he's saying. I kind of have to block it out. You know what I mean? It's a little bit misogynistic and extremely disrespectful, but I like the beats. So I started to think about, like, what would I want to be shaking my ass to? And this line came to me, shake your ass for your ancestors. Do a dance for your ancestors. Work Your back for your ancestors. Make it clap for your ancestors. So I got on the mic and I just went all out, just having fun with myself, talking shit, saying the stuff. And I kind of just like, let it be for a few months. And I came back to it later and I was like, yo, I like this energy. I'm into this. So I started producing a beat for it. I was like, I really want, like, trap beat. Like, you know, like trap twerk music, but like a little bit of dance hall in there as well. So started working on the beat and put it together and ended up using the exact first take that I did on the song, which is a song you're listening to in the background right now. Shaky. Ask for your ancestors, which is on my new album, My Body is an Altar. There's a lot of people's favorite songs on there. We actually shot the music video live at my album launch party. DJ set performance at Envision Festival. It was so much fun. I threw furbies in the crowd for everyone who was twerking. I was like, you get a furby, you get a furby. I got Tamagotchi. I kept that. I couldn't let that baby go. But if you love this music that you're listening to right now, you're going to love my new album. My Body is an alter. It really is music for the embodied baby girls. So you can listen to it on Spotify, Apple music music on YouTube. There's a gorgeous music video art piece to My Body is an Altar. And this music really shifts your consciousness. It speaks to your soul, not just in the production, but the lyrics, the melodies, and it gives you the embodied experience of this frequency. So you can find those links all in the show notes. And I'm so excited to see you make some reels, make some stories. Shaking your ass for your ancestors, making them proud, throwing it back, making it clap, and of course, getting paid for your ancestors. Because a lot of us have had women in our lineage who did a lot of unpaid labor. So it's time for us to get that abundance back for them. You know what I mean? And do it sexies. So you can stream the album right now. My Body is an altar. I am so excited to see you dance out to it. And thank you for being part of the My Body is an Altar movement. Yeah, it's crazy how you don't recognize how much of this is ancestral. I didn't recognize until my divorce how much the story of betrayal, as you know, especially for a woman, was seen as a commodity you know, in like Middle Eastern culture as well as in many Indian, African cultures, a woman is like a trophy that, like, your rank in society gets a certain youth and beauty of women. So youth and beauty is what you have for a man's money, protectorship, status in society. And it's like a trade off. And, you know, I was sharing with you that My grandmother was 11 years old when she married my grandfather, who was 27. And my great grandmother was 10 years old, married my great grandfather who's 40 something years old. And you know, and beyond that, they had multiple wives even then in the Middle East. And the way that, like, for me, I'm like, oh, that's so crazy, but that's not even that long ago. Like, that's my dad's mom, right? Like, that is freaking crazy. And then to think, oh, well, that has nothing to do with me. And like, even if I was born and raised in the United States, it's still in my lineage and in my programming. And I even recognize through, like doing deep healing work that there was this, like, underlying resentment within me that for us women, we always have to sacrifice, we always have to give. Our wombs are this commodity to birth the child of this man who's like, really only for his lineage to continue on, for him to have access to more land and resources, and you're just this tool for him. And that resentment for me that I was subconsciously holding on to actually had me want closeness, but also not right, you know, of like, oh, I want you here, but not too close, because I secretly am actually holding on to this resentment. And actually wasn't until I told you I sat with MDME therapy that that allowed me to see that it was almost like this hatred in my heart that was like a black tar over my heart. So that black tar didn't let me to fully feel. So if my ex was distant or separate to me, you know, I would go into what I do wrong. And then I was like, you know what? I can't fully emotionally regulate with this person. So let me just like focus on my own thing. And that's kind of what our society tells us to do. That's their thing and your thing. But I think in true conscious relationship, it's, you know, taking ownership that we all have to do our own deep inner healing work. But also we do bring on all these patterns that is going to affect the other person, especially if you're living together and creating a life together. So my question for you is for people who are like, unsure of what their maybe ancestral wounds are. How can we become more clear of that?

Yeah, in the book, we walk people through discovering the context of, you know, why they do what they do relationally. And, you know, I don't think that context is necessary to change because you can know that you do something and not know why, and then know that you need to change it. So a behavior could be separate of that. The reason context is really important is because it allows us to have compassion. So we now can put the pieces together to see, oh, it's not my fault. And, you know, a lot of the times someone will come to me and say, you know, they have a behavior that maybe they feel shame about the repeated patterns of picking people that they can't say no to, someone who's toxic. First thing I say is, like, when they're like, I can't believe I do that is I say, well, how could you not? Like, that's exactly the perfect behavior for survival that you learned. And it got you here to this opportunity. Now, even through the introspection, you're alive. Like, you now are. Are stopping and you're asking a question that means you can now create choice. So that's really. Is like this insertion of choice and awareness is one part. The other part, you know, I think about, okay, well, what's the material that's coming up? Our lineage you talked about. Well, look, we'll hear someone say something like, well, the reason I have anxiety is because I inherited it. My mom had anxiety, my dad, and my. It's in my family. It's not actually anxiety that's in your family, it's behaviors that are in your family. So they're just behaviors and ways of being that lead to the experience of anxiety. But anxiety is a symptom, and I would say for a large part, a lot of the time, anxiety, which is an inhibitory feeling, which means that it's because it's a feeling that comes up when we're not connected to one or more of our core emotions. So if I don't have access to anger, grief, disgust, these are all joy, it'll show up as another feeling, anxiety. And so when we don't have access to our voice, that means I don't have access to choice. If I don't have access to choice, I can't direct my life that's going to show up as anxiety. So it's the. If I never witnessed my mother, if I'm a woman, I look up my matrilineal line or I'm a man, I Look up my patrilineal line. I see, like, when was the last time that a woman had access to real choice where she didn't have to depend on a man, where she didn't have to give up her sovereignty? And like, when you're 11 and you're born and you're married in. To a. To a what, a 20, 27.

Yeah.

That's not choice.

No.

Right. So when we as adults wake up to, like, why do. Why am I tolerating this? My. The compassionate lens is, how could you not? And there's something being awoken through the frustrations, the betrayals. That is saying, although we might not have choice in the acute nature of whatever's waking us up. Right. Like a betrayal comes out of nowhere. What I always notice about betrayals, which I think is really fascinating, my own experience of betrayal and some big ones, is that my experience of being betrayed was always preceded by my own betrayal of myself. And that might not have been conscious. Right. It could be that I just. I learned throughout my childhood and my family lineage to bypass a red flag, an alert. And if we just learn that it's just normal for us to stay in circumstances because there's no. There's no intuitive connection to body. That's why this saying, the longest journey is from the head to the heart, because it's so short, literally, but it's so long because we have to go through the grieving process of. Of, like, you got to think generations. Like, you only look back at three. But, you know, this is embedded in culture, and this is embedded in many cultures. So part of the healing that comes together, and we're talking in this heteronormative version of, like, my wife and I, or you and your partner is like, what a beautiful opportunity. Like, when my wife accesses more of her voice, it makes our relationship more powerful. It makes me now get feedback from a powerful woman who says, I see this in you. A month ago, my wife said to me, I see you hiding. Like, I see you not living the thing, you know? And I was like, what? Like, what are you talking about? But it was like, it was so beautiful to be witnessed and so beautiful to be witnessed in something that I knew to be true, but I wasn't living. And she was holding me to my integrity. And that was a gift when I was 20. And if you're listening or watching and you're an ex girlfriend of mine, I did not see it that way. And I, you know, what a lesson that is that we have to learn through the Frictions of our previous relationships. So I think the saying, I'm going to take responsibility for it, like, I might have inherited it, I might not have had a choice in it, but it's mine. And I'm actually going to be the first in however long to actually step fully into my power. And when relationships are thinking about who's got the upper hand, or I'm not going to text them back, or here's five ways to get six people to do two things. You know, not that the skill sets aren't important, because communication does require a sense of, like, I can't just go into a conflict with my partner and not have some awareness of how to structure language. That is. That is inviting and curious and. And not blaming. So there's a competence part of it, but then there's the other part, which is, like, as soon as you're thinking about power, you're lost. As soon as you're thinking about upper hands, you're actually not in your. In your center. And so this is like, when my wife and I got back together, there was a lot of rage from her. There was a lot of distrust from me. Now, the rage from her wasn't at me, but it was at the fact that she was seeing all the structures of how women have been silenced. And I remember sitting in the backyard when we first got back together, and she was like, I just need to clear. And I was like, all right. Like, I sat there and she let. Let it go. And I didn't personalize it, but I was like, I can be part of holding this space as a man for her rage. And I saw that as a gift. And I also felt the grief of that. And I also felt the grief of male lineage that exploits that through power.

How was she sharing that rage?

She was yelling. She was yelling. She was expressing through her body. But I didn't get defensive because it wasn't mine, but I could see the ways maybe I like, we have it. We talk about, in the book, this moment where we talk about these things called codependent hooks. Codependent hooks are things that we unconsciously do in order to try to keep people close. So when we were coming back together, Kylie was gonna fly into Vancouver and I offered to pay for her flight, and she said no. And when we had the conversation about it, she was like, it didn't feel clean. And she said to me, though, what's wrong with me that I can't receive your offer? And at the same time, what came to me, which I never. I didn't even notice this, but because she was bringing this forward, I was like, huh? When I offered to pay for her flight, I heard this voice within me that was like, I call it like my little golem, like my pareches. And it said, if she accepts that you pay for it, you've got her. And so when she presented this to me, I said to her, actually, it wasn't. Yeah. And she refers to like the body's experience, which doesn't matter if you're male or female. The body's experience of that intuitive sense is the somatic canary in the coal mine. Because for the first time in her life, she didn't feel crazy. Because I said to her, actually, I think what you picked up on was this thing that I just dismissed because I was like, that's ridiculous. I would never. That's not why I'm offering. And she was like, I remember we just had this moment where she cried because she was like, oh, I've been told my whole life there's something wrong with me that I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to move away from this or I don't trust it because it came with conditions. Now listen, there are going to be inherent power structures that happen when one person's paying and the other's not, right? So we're not saying those don't exist, but what doesn't exist is the explicit communication about what do we feel like we have to give up or what do we think we're getting. So we start to take what's implicit in these ways that men and women have, have maintained some sense of stay close to me. We're bringing that forward so that it's not unconsciously or silently manipulating. So all of a sudden, if, like right now, my wife, we have a one year old, so she's not working, so I'm paying for things. And so we're able to say, what does that feel like for you? It. Does it feel like you can't use your voice as much? How do I help facilitate that? That's not true. What financial setup do you need? An account that has this amount of money that allows you to feel some. So I'm not taking it personally. We're actually working on, on like generations of stuff. And as soon as we can depersonalize it, that's where the real magic starts to happen. Do you know what I mean?

I really want to talk about this, this idea of money and paying for people and codependency, because I think that this is where a lot of these codependent structures come from. I had this dream the other night which is so perfect. You're here now.

I like it. I'm ready.

And in this dream, there was this elder, like, councilwoman, and she had a group of us women, but it was also a friend of mine and her male partner. And she was telling us, she said, the reason why you women have had to go through these heartbreaks and these initiations is because you have learned as the feminine, that to be in relationship with someone is to depend on them. And the new paradigm of relationships is to break through these codependent patterns. Now, in the dream, the man, my friend's partner, was saying, no, don't listen to her, to his partner. So it was him not wanting to give up that control of, well, if I pay for you, then I get to choose. And. And also, like I was sharing with you how a lot of the dating advice out there, like I was telling you about the sprinkle sprinkle.

I couldn't believe it, man.

Again, like, she. She shares some interesting things, but the concept of it is how to be a sugar baby. You know, how to sprinkle sprinkle sprinkle. It's funny, but it's teaching you how to be a gold digger. Because her idea is that men will lie to you, betray you, break your trust, you're going to end up heartbroken, you're going to end doing all the emotional labor, so you might as well get the bag. Because as women, her belief is that historically we've always been paid for and provided for simply for being. And that you being pretty and in your feminine energy is enough. And that you should have your bills and your lifestyle taken care of for that. And don't put love on a pedestal, because love will go away. But your survival and safety is more important. She's hitting on this really true root chakra, I think, conditioning slash biological thing that a lot of women have of, like, it feels good to be provided for. I feel safe, I feel taken care of. I feel invested. And I feel like this person wants a future in me. They feel taken care of, but at the same time, there's no such thing as free lunch, like they say in economics. And oftentimes you think that, oh, someone providing for me and me being in my feminine will be enough. But then that person may have this concept of, well, because I'm paying for you, you don't get to choose. You don't get to decide where we live and what our life looks like. Get to know what's really going on in my extramarital affairs. And you know, if there's anything my lineage has taught me is like, that's actually not what you really want. But I think we're in this really interesting place right now where, you know, there are more college educated women than men and slowly there's more female homeowners than men. And women are starting to out earn men and at the same time they're wanting a man who can provide for them. Then a lot of these men are feeling like, you know, you're making more money than me. It doesn't make sense for me to have to provide for you when there has been this feminist movement that has allowed you to, you know, equally and now even out earn me. And then there's a lot of blame on the feminist movement being the thing. So I'm curious, what do you see with like there is this beautiful chivalrous thing about men, you know, taking care of dinner and taking care of dates and things like that. But then a lot of women would are choosing to just be with someone who could provide a lifestyle for them rather than love. So I'm curious your take on this conversation.

Yeah, a lot of layers of grenades in that one. I like it.

Yeah.

The first part I'll say is that when we resign to the idea of becoming a sugar baby, which I'm not shaming anyone's choice of that, if that's what you choose, but you are definitely exchanging something. And I think of Carolyn Mays works where she talks about the prostitute archetype. And so regardless of our gender, we can start to sell ourselves out for things. Now we have to just give historical context, which is the recognition that if my, if my root chakra needs of shelter and food and that are taken care of, then I have a baseline of safety and then I can make more choices. If we think about it from a nervous system perspective, I'm more resourced, I've got more space. So a lot of the times the reason that people can't leave relationships, but especially in relational structures that are historic women, is because there's no financial safety. So we know about the histories of financial abuse, things like that. So we have that layer of understanding that truly it's hard to be in choice when you don't have your baseline needs covered. So we have to start to create more resources through getting a second job, through creating some sort of sideline income that allows our nervous system to expand so we can think about exiting a relationship. If that relate, if that's what we need to do. So there's that layer of that. Now then you have this idea of like, if I'm in my feminine and I'm being provided for, but I'm also making more money than most men, that's going to be a strange paradox to try to hold. Again, it's also this idea that being in your feminine is about receiving financial support versus maybe the structure of the man's actually true essence of his masculinity. And providing is actually a bedrock of support for the woman to fully step into her power. When men are in insecurity, they have a hard time being with powerful women because there's a feeling that her power in some way inhibits my self worth, which is correlated to my ability to provide. So the man has to dismantle where his self worth lives. Now I'll say the sort of extreme versions of these is that often a woman will go into this hyper providing, hyper independent, hyper financially successful role from a place of wounding. Never will I ever need a man, Never will I ever depend on a man. And a man can do that too. Like never will I need someone, Never will I depend on someone. I'd say that's the paradigm swing of the response to the exploitation of money and power that has happened in relational structures and in society. So we have to bring all that into context because a lot of the time what is actually happening is the woman is not open. She's not open because she said in the mind. When someone says to me, I'm afraid of commitment, I always say to them, you're not afraid of commitment. You're afraid of where commitment leads. Afraid to be in a relationship with a man who will, I might need them. Now I open myself up to wounding, quote, unquote, exploitation, quote unquote, the loss of my voice, my power. So these are all just important things to start to play with. Because someone. Sometimes I'll get asked like, you know, can standards be so high that they're actually a way that no one can meet us? And I can never know someone's own subjective experience of that. But what I can say is when you get in touch with the deeper senses of your body, then you'll know if that's true or not. You can just feel into yourself, are my standards actually walls? Did I become hyper individuated? Because the opposite of codependency is overt individuation. That's not healthy either. You know, you have a bunch of islands walking around with no one experiencing connection. So ultimately I think of Harville Hendricks and Helen Hunt's work where they talk, we're wounded in relationship. We're born in relationship, we're wounded in relationship, and we heal in relationship. So what we need to learn how to do and really what our book is about is about honoring two paths as their own. That both people are sovereign beings, right? And in recognizing the innate wisdom in one versus the other, so there's no longer this idea of control or exploitation or anything like that. There's actually a deep. We talk about it being that there's a mutual positive regard, right? Like this idea of a deep sense of reverence. Think about that in the context. Because, you know, often what I'll hear men say in response to some of the things men say about relational structures and healing them. Oh, you're just pandering to female audiences. Just pandering to women. What about men? And my response to that is that it's actually really important that when there's been an exploitation of any kind, that there is actually reparation and. And accountability that's taken, even if you're not the person who did it, because the woman has likely experienced that. Right. And in what way is it pandering to acknowledge the exploitation of power? That has clearly happened. Like if you're paying attention, still happens. So that's a long answer to that. Really what needs to start to be done is the recognition that if we're thinking about power structures, we have to start thinking about availability, we have to start thinking about wounds, and we have to start thinking about how do I be in a relationship with someone else and hold on to myself and how do I actually co create a space with them that is about also honoring them. So there starts to be a recognition that you're a human who has needs. I'm a human who has needs. I don't want you to give up what you need and what you want to be in a relationship with me. I actually want our relationship. Even as friends, right? Because liberated love is not just about romance. Even as friends. I would never want you to compromise what you desire. Like it is actually my greatest intention. And I know you know this from me, that you are the most powerful version of Sahar like that. I actually can't think of anything better. I remember when I saw you, like, stepping out of the divorce. I was like, I wanna. I wanna get on this train. This is like, she's on fire. Because that to me is actually a gift that's healing for you, but that's healing for the world. Because think about how many people now have been touched by your story.

Yeah. So I'm curious. You know, most of my friends make more money than their partners, you know, because a lot of female entrepreneurs and I've tried dating people who like, don't make as much money as me or nearly as much money as me. And it was never a problem for me.

Yeah.

But it's always ended up being a problem for them. So even though I don't want to be in this, in this model. And for me it's. I don't need a man for money because I've created a life, you know, outside of my lineage, I find that this continues to come up of men being intimidated and then coming up with some sort of excuse on why it can't work. So I'm curious how you have seen relationship models work where women are making more money.

Well, I think it does require that there is space for the vulnerability of the male to explore what comes up for them. Instead of that, it's a, you know, if they have the capacity to do that. But instead of that it's like a rejection of that. There's actually curiosity to like. Because on a deeper level it's really the fear, like who am I if I'm not taking care.

Yeah. And then this idea that they're not doing enough.

Right. And then we. And if I'm not taking care of you, then I don't have control. Right. So I have to actually go into the deeper basis of that. The what makes our relationship secure is that I become the type of man that you're not going to want to leave. Because I actually want to participate in a relationship that's co creative, that doesn't use control mechanisms. Right. And I do notice like in those relational dynamics, sometimes the woman can have a hard time actually paying for things. I've seen that too, actually being the quote, unquote, more of the provider. Because then what does that mean? Because there is such deep cultural messaging that there ends up being a sort of sense of disrespect or disgust towards the male. It's much like we want men who are really emotionally intelligent. Right. That's the common narrative that we have. Yet in the research, when a man is emotional, he's seen the woman feels. Exactly. So I am. Brene Brown talks about that. Like in her research, she saw that when men cried, the women actually lost trust in him. So we have this narrative like we want more emotionally intelligent men who did it. But then when you actually look at who women Choose. That's what creates what? Right. So that's what creates what men want to become. So if you see what women are choosing, that's what motivates men. Because they want to aspire to be, like, the person who gets the most mates.

Yeah. And on the flip side, men say, oh, yeah, I want a woman who's like, in her full power and in her voice. And.

Yeah.

And then they're like, hell, exactly.

Right.

They go for someone who, you know, submissive, meek, makes them feel powerful, and then they'll even cheat on them too, you know?

Yeah. Like, I think if we're really getting down. I think if we're really getting down to, like, what can we personally do about it? It's that we can't worry about trying to get a man or a woman to change. What we need to do is get so centered in ourselves that we're actually not even focused on those men. We're not even focused on those women. Because there is an energetic and a knowing that starts to happen when you're so rooted. And I do think it's an important point of inquiry is like, is there any part of me that through my financial independence has actually created a way to prevent myself from opening up? And in becoming interdependent with someone, am I actually just in the smallest way, using it to prevent vulnerability and dependency? And I would. I would imagine that the answer is probably yes. And that means. And not for everybody, but I'd say like, 99%.

Of course.

Right. Because the motivation of it is wounding.

So because we've seen so many women.

Exactly.

Be left with nothing.

So can we. If we can be with that truth, then we can recognize that actually we're part of the dynamic that they're picking up on, that there is actually a way that we're trying to create a hierarchy and protect ourselves. And so if we can actually bring that to the relationship now, we can heal the wound that occurred through financial exploitation.

So how can we have the conversation of sharing finances coming from this place of independence and interdependence?

Right. This is the answer to it. All right. Well, the first part, I think, is being able to create the type of relationship that can hold the reactivity that will come from that conversation. Because if you say to, let's say a woman who's created that type of financial independence. Oh, you're doing that in some way to prevent yourself from depending on people, there might be a reaction like, of course I am. Have you seen what happened in society? Have you seen. Right. And so can. Can a man hear that and not make it about him and instead be like, tell me more about that. Like, what. What has that been like to witness? What was that like for you to see that your mother didn't have a choice? Like, what can I do to help build trust in that? And that there's a plan together that comes from that, that that's where the healing really begins. Because this idea that we're just going to pretend that these dynamics don't exist or that there isn't wounding in these spaces. And, like, what was it like for a man to think that his only value and his ability to provide, procreate and protect. Right. Like, that is also. We, I think, in consciousness, we forget that we're mammals. So there's like, there's like sort of an arrogance to awareness. And it's this idea that I'm not a mammal with a nervous system. And that's why there's really no healing without the healing of the nervous system. Because you're still. You're still a human with a lower. With a brain stem, you know, and so when you get triggered, your beautiful critical thinking, prefrontal cortex, says Zia, like, there's no blood perfusing to this part of the brain anymore. And so I think we're talking healing on a nervous system level, which is primal, but it's also actually sacred and ancestral. There's this really interesting. There's a lot of studies looking at this, but if you think about a pregnant female at that time has, let's say, a daughter in the womb by, I believe it's week nine, the cells that will become eggs are in the daughter. So in one woman, you have three generations. Wow. So if this woman's in a state of exploitation, dependence, her body is actually programming the lineage to prepare for an environment like that. Wow. So now we have so much more context to the nervous system. And, you know, when. When a baby is in a mother who's in a high stress state, the baby is exposed to more circulating cortisol, and then they call it secondary ptsd. So the baby actually has a hard time producing cortisol, and so they have a harder time getting back into a regulated state. And again, none of this is destiny, but it's context, and the context is important. So I say all that because I really start to see that the nervous system, although it's this beautiful biological structure, I also consider it to be a connection to soul, the connection to history, a connection to ancestry, a connection to, you know, the greater.

This show is sponsored by Better Help. So I'm curious if right now you have something on your mind that you're continuously stressing over and maybe it's something that you really need to get off your chest. It's a conversation you need to have a boundary you need to make, an action you need to take, but you're kind of stressing out around how you're going to say it, how you're going to approach it, and it's eating you alive. Well, if you have felt that way, and I know I have many, many times throughout my life, it's really important to go to therapy. Therapy, this provides us a safe space to talk these things out, get them off of our chest, because if we don't, they can actually affect us negatively. And we feel so much more light and free when we just express the things that are on our mind. So if you're thinking about getting started with therapy, I highly recommend giving Better Help a try. So it's entirely online. You fill out a brief questionnaire and you get matched with a licensed therapist for you. And you can schedule your sessions online. You can even text with this person in between sessions, which is really freaking cool. And you can do them every week, every two weeks, as often or as, as little as you would like. It's really designed to be customized for your schedule and super, super flexible. So get things off your chest with better help. Visit betterhelp.comsahara to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp. H E L p.comsahara you can find that link in the show notes. Trust your intuition. Trust your inner wisdom, Trust your inner guidance. Totally. And I feel like on this topic, as a woman, when I look at the two options, option one being, let's say I was in a relationship and he asks me, is there any form of independence or resistance you have to trusting the masculine? And this is why you have created your own business and you have your own bank account doing the healing work on that verse. The option of, you're right, I'm going to completely let go of this and, you know, get pregnant by you and rely on you. And then let's say an affair or he walks away or something like that happens, and then I literally have nothing, right? Then I'm like, between these two options of like, not fully opening up my heart to the maximum and like literally ending up homeless.

Right? I'll take the first one.

Exactly. And I. And, and so I think a lot of us women, we hear, oh, be in your feminine, receive, open Your heart, trust the masculine. And then we see the woman around us who have three kids and find out that he was cheating and now are stuck on their own. And we're like, I can never be that. So it. Feel it. It's like, as much as we want to, I think that reality hits of, like, we also just don't know. Especially because relationships these days are. Are so fickle. So I'm curious, like, when. When those feel like your two options, like, how can you start that, that healing?

Well, those are the two options that appear. But there is a. There are more than two. Because imagine if actually the experience we have is that you tell me those are your two options, and then I say to you, what would be a third? What would it allow you to maintain your sovereignty, maintain your sense of choice and open up. What would that be for you?

Yeah. And I would say, you know, potentially creating a bank account that both people put into that for the household options and the shared things. Or you would. I mean, I guess it would also depend on. On both of their finances. But maybe he pays for, like, dinners out and dates and things like that. But then they split things like the rent. So she continues to have her own resources in case something happens. And I think having a conversation, if she's taking time off and cannot work because she's raising children, you know, that is a huge value that she's adding. And I, And I feel a lot of women, especially if they're not married, they don't. They don't have that. I have friends who are single moms, and I'm like, I can't even imagine.

Right now be the worst.

So, yeah, that's how I would go by it. But it does feel like with a lot of the online relationship information we get, it's either like, surrender into your feminine and just fully receive and like, let the masculine lead. And it's just because your heart is closed or like, yeah, that's.

That's bypassing bullshit.

Right.

Because really what that's saying is don't trust your intuition. The reason that you're. The reason that you're not getting these type of men or creating these type of circumstances is because you're not in your feminine. So it blames you.

Yes.

Right. Instead of what I would recommend is one, there's brilliance in your reservations. So already I'm not gaslighting the woman's experience. There's brilliance in any human's reservations. So what's coming up for you is material to be healed and worked with with. So What I would say is, instead, there is no such thing as opening your heart with no guardrails. That's. That's codependency. That's people pleasing. That's actually not having discernment and choice. Because there is like, again, oh, it's. You're the problem to your relational outcomes. Yes, you are choosing them, but there is a level of responsibility for both people who are in relationship, and you should never just give your heart to anyone. I think of the archetype that really kind of speaks to this is I believe that people have both a child and a warrior in them. And if you're too much of a child, a child will love everybody. A child will forgive everybody. A child, when is young and its parent doesn't show up, actually internalizes that as a failure of themselves. So a child will get in a van with someone who has candy. Right. Like a child really will love all out, much. Like a dog. Right. Like a dog will love all out.

Yeah. I feel like that's the maiden archetype for women.

Yeah. And then there's the warrior, which is. I would probably more the mother.

Right.

And so the warrior is someone who cuts. Who's like, hell, no. But you can't walk around like that because that's the independent, financially independent Beyonce archetype, which there's nothing wrong with queen bee. But the archetype really says, like, I will. I'm not open to anybody if you violate me. Done. And we're saying, like, how do you actually be with both? To open your heart, you have to trust what you're choosing. It's like, when you're starting to date somebody, we think, well, if I bring forward that I'm starting to really enjoy this, it might push them away. It doesn't push away a line to people. If you're saying, you know what? If I'm gonna continue to explore this, I actually need to know we're not dating other people. I don't want to say that. I don't want to be too much. That'll push away the wrong people. But if you're really curating what you're opening to, then you need to do that. That. And so it's this same idea as, like, of course, you can't fully surrender into your feminine. That's the woman who walks down the aisle with the person who's not aligned. That's the woman who gets gaslit and love bombed because she was told to bypass how she feels, because what's wrong with her that she can't be taken care of. And I'm saying, like, what happens if. Because this wounding can exist in any human. What happens if we actually see a return to your body, a return to your knowing? I think we are in one, an attack on women that's going on in the world right now. But at the same time we're in a restoration and this recognition and it's of course they always exist in these paradoxes, right, that there's a restoration of the sacredness of what it means to be a woman, a sacredness of the womb, a sacredness of the earth which is the womb. So how do we restore what's sacred within ourselves? How do we restore what's sacred in our relationships to one another? Because if you and I treat the friendship that we have as a sacred space between the two of us, then the way we're going to treat each other is going to be very different. There's going to be a deep level of reverence which we've always had for one another other, you know, and so if we could start to model that with ourselves and with our friendships, avoiding relationships isn't going to be the solution. Moving towards them as you build new skill sets and access to your voice, that's the key is like, how do I get more access to this? And so in the book we talk about this principle of taking a sacred pause. And that's regardless of relational status. What we're really talking about is actually taking a moment for your nervous system, the thought out for the patterns of what you've done. You start to assess the inherited stuff and you start to say, like, what do I want? And you also recognize how much you've been sourcing, how much you've been giving up yourself, how much you've been avoiding loneliness, rejection, abandonment. And you start to trust yourself. So when someone's like, how do I stop choosing into, you know, unavailable people? I'm like, go into a container. That's what we call it. But like, which is really a agreements that you create for yourself or with someone and actually say, here's our intention, here's what I want to do as a single person. I want to assess and figure this out. And what comes up is, I mean, it's crazy, it's wild. The healing that happens when we get that intentional. Like, I'm not going to date for three months. And I'll hear someone say, three months, Like, I haven't dated in five years. Like, I've already been doing a sacred pause. And I'm like, no, you haven't and my response to that, always when someone says, I don't have time is like, you don't have a choice. Like, I'll be having the same conversation with you in a year, two years. Like, this work is important and it allows us to enter into relationships that are like, there's a mutuality. You know what I mean?

Yeah. It's so real. So I remember after my divorce, like, it felt like my right arm was chopped off and I didn't even know how to be as like a single person because I was in a seven year relationship, you know, and it felt like there's this huge void in my life for like the biggest, like, figure in my life. And I can't go back to like working or doing anything until I've like, figured out this, like, problem, you know, insert someone else, you know. And you know, very quickly I was just like, okay, I'm just like gonna get on a dating app and like, find some my capricornesses. Just like, find someone. Like, move on. Obviously, you know, I went on a date. Maybe it was like two months after I was so not ready in any way. And I remember thinking I was like, okay, like, it's, it's, it's. They say after three months or they say it's after six months or like giving this like, time where I would like, ask my friends. I'm like, when does it stop hurting? Like around when. As if there would be this moment that it's like, and now you are totally healed and totally over it. And what it taught me was that, you know, thank Goddess, my spirit guides or whoever else protected me from getting into a relationship, even though that's what I actually wanted. Because I would have just gone into a relationship that had the exact same patterns and that version of me would have played out that story or you know, whatever lesson it was, I was learning at that time. And at that time and, you know, after a few months went by and I would realize I'm like, oh, thank God that person I had like a huge crush on three months ago never happened. Because I would have been stuck on this idea of like, what I share on social media is too much and I would have done that. Or this idea of like, what will whatever think? And as time went by, I'm recognizing I am meeting new versions of myself and new versions of myself. So the longer I kind of wait to get into relationship, which doesn't mean wait forever, like, they will be meeting a totally different version of me. And it wasn't this intentional thing like you talk about in. In the book. Because I definitely like. And I think a lot of us who go through big divorces and breakups, the last thing you want to hear is, don't date. Because you're like, well, I was so lonely in the marriage that what I really want is romance and intimacy and passion. But I unintentionally entered into the celibacy journey that I have been in ever since. And it has been the most liberating and healing thing. Liberated love. Because it showed me that had I gotten into. Into relation and even sexual relationship with certain people is like, as a woman, you start creating those oxytocin bonds and you start, you know, even, like, what I feel society tells us to do is, like, just have your situationship, you know, until, like, you find that person. But then what happens is you start to try to make your situationship your relationship, you know, and that inevitably. And they went into it, and at least a lot of them are honest that they don't want that. And then women are biologically now connected to this person. So for me, choosing to abstain from being in any kind of situationship has allowed me to, like, fully do that healing work on myself, meet new parts of myself, not be tied to someone that I knew going into it I wouldn't have been a fit with simply because I was lonely at that time. And that's also what allowed me to travel. Like, you know, when I, for example, I was telling you I was living in London, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm totally gonna, like, find a British guy. And I didn't. However, if I did, when my place was broken into in London, could I have just, like, left the next day? No, because I would have been in a relationship.

Yeah.

So I do feel that sometimes we are divinely protected, even in a way that, like, you consciously wouldn't have chosen from yourself. That it's like God protecting us of. Like, let me create this energetic field around you. And I've spoken to so many women. At first I was like, I'm being cosmically cock blocked. Like, why is it not.

That's a great term.

But now I'm like, oh, no. It was like the most divine protection. Because now, you know, when you have a crush on someone's, like, all you can see is the good. And then you get out of the bubble. You're like, what was I thinking there? And because I didn't have that oxytocin bond going on, I could just move on. So I love that you recommend that. And I Highly recommend for people who, especially if they do have that propensity to merge with someone to be on, you know, whether it's a celibacy journey or a not dating journey or whatever, the thing is to bring that power back into themselves.

Yeah. I mean, that's everything you shared. So powerful. Cosmic cockblock. I'm definitely gonna remember that.

Yeah.

It's interesting because we either repeat the pattern so we can change it, or what you're inferring or saying is that we're not. We're not going to be allowed to repeat it. Like, I think of all relational challenges as being this opportunity to learn finally. Like, finally, finally, will it be enough? It's interesting how as humans, we usually have to wait till it's so bad that we have to change. And I think you start after you've experienced a dark night of the soul, after you've experienced someone betraying you, leaving you. I think the things that are not optional, like when we don't choose a dark night, you know, when we don't, those are actually the hardest because we're holding two things that are opposing. One is that I didn't choose this. Like, why would I? I'm not choosing this pain. I'm not choosing this discomfort. It's like when someone passes away unexpectedly. You're, like, thrust into an experience, into grief. And we live in a culture that is really grief phobic, pain phobic. You know, the message we send to people is that if you're sad, there's something wrong with you. If you have anxiety or depression, there's something wrong with you. And I'm like, whoa, whoa. Like, these are the exact responses that are appropriate to the environment you're in, to the experiences you're having within your body. And can we actually turn to them from a place of curiosity and instead of brokenness, from a place of like, wow, this is coming up for me. Wow, okay, what is it inviting me to do, man? But I think of, you know, relational patterns that just cause us to be like, how am I still doing this? And that's when the pattern is such. It's not here. It's actually in the nervous system. It's familiar. And so to actually choose something different, which. The sacred positive, which is really about cultivating literal space and figurative space between stimulus and response. So then, because you've waited, so you've endured the storm, you've allowed all your greatest fears, like Kai, when she was in her sacred pause between our relationship, which is really what you call a breakup, when you get back together. Otherwise, it's just a breakup. But she was saying that I thought I was going to die. Like, I wasn't sourcing energy from anyone. I wasn't texting, sexting, doing anything. And I actually thought I was going to die, even though that was not a relevant thought. But if you've always depended on people, always tried to source from the male gaze, for example, is the example she gives. Then who are you? Without the validation of someone validating your worth through their desire, then you're just a soul. You're just a person. And our book looks through things like masks we wear, right? Blind spots that we have, because these are all ways that we don't reveal ourselves. And it's like how you can't just reveal yourself to anybody. You start to learn how to do it with people who are trusted in that journey, who want to reveal themselves, too. And, like, if we could use the frictions of our mass, of our reactivity, of our blind spots thoughts to actually say, I see this, I see this in you. How do we heal that? How do you heal the abandonment of a father? How do you heal maybe the reactivity of a mother? How do you heal cultural wounds? What a gift that is in relationship. Like, it's not like you've just been healing like that you had a betrayal. You're like, holy smokes, this isn't just mine. That's why it's, you know, taken. And I mean, I acknowledge your commitment to your transformation.

Yeah. Thank you. And, yeah, and I think that, you know, there's these funny reels I see sometimes. It's like what life feels like when you don't, like, have a crush on someone. And it's, like, so boring and stuff that I think a lot of us even find our entertainment in it. You know, the entertainment, like, oh, my God, did they watch my stories? Like, oh, my God, like, we matched on this app. And I can speak for women. It's like the fantasy. Like, we love it, you know, and it gives us this maybe like, this little pep in our step and like, something to. Feels like something to live for. But it's like. But that's still the codependency, right? I have something to live for if this person that I don't even know might potentially like me. Because it's still that Disney princess within us that just wants to be chosen, right?

And really, we've taught people that if you're not chosen there, if you're not chosen, there's not evidence of the recognition of your value. Value.

Right.

So even relationally we say and we dare this person. Right.

You know, you, you who I have put on the pedestal of like my value of myself. If you don't choose me, then this is evidence that my dad never loved me. Like that is literally what we do.

Same exactly. You know, and I always say to people that when you lose something that you place your value in is to remind you that it doesn't live there. You know, and, and that opportunity to recognize that when someone walks out of your life or doesn't choose you or ghosts you, which not saying any of those things aren't painful. But if like every ounce of who you think you are or your self worth or your well being lives in that, thank God because that is an opportunity to recognize it does not. And what a huge pressure for someone to hold to be in relationship with you. You that they need to be in relationship with you for you to have well being and happiness. That's something I don't want to carry. I want to contribute to and be part of someone creating that like my life is enormously better because I have my wife in it and my son. But it doesn't complete me. Sorry, Jerry McGuire, but it doesn't.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's that, you know, this idea that a lot of us women have of like, I need to be chosen. And like it's. And I will say part of it does come from this like deep feminine yearning of like wanting someone to like fully love you and see you and hold you and all parts of you and only want to be with you. And that's such a beautiful thing.

Yeah.

However, it's that we then place it upon someone that hasn't even earned that role in our lives.

Right. We give it to people without discernment.

Exactly.

Like, are they actually a good fit for that honor?

Right. Do I? And you know, they say that women start men at 100 and men start women at 0. Have you heard this?

I actually have. I think I really. I was very fascinated.

Which is so true too. So it's like when for a woman, let's say she like matches with someone on a dating app and they're talking little. She's like, I've found the one perfect. I'm. You look at this pictures like a million times. You're like texting it to all your friends. You're so excited. You're like, he's it, he's perfect. You're planning. He's going to be my date at this wedding. And this is what her life's going to look like and my wedding dress and all the things. And the man probably feels nothing towards you. It's that is you're a stranger to him, you know, so just the. The difference there. So then the woman, like, he texted me back. All of these things, like, they mean so much for the guy. It's nothing. Then as the woman gets to know the guy, she's like, oh, he's not perfect, and he's this and he's that. It starts to go down as he gets to know her. He's like, oh, she's kind of cool. Oh, yeah, I kind of like her. And then it reaches this point that, like, the woman might be over him and he's like, oh, I actually finally like you now. That's funny.

I think those are. Those represent that one side is generally more anxious. Like, women are more prone to anxious and men are more prone to avoiding. Because I definitely identify with the start at 100 more. Like, I was more like when I met my wife. Now wife. But when I met.

Is she more avoidant?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, so avoidant that when I asked her to read the book attached, she didn't read it. And I was like, babe, you're going to actually laugh when you get to the part of unavoidance. Because the irony has not lost upon me that you've avoided this book. We talk about attachment styles in the book because we found that framework is actually just incredibly helpful. But we overlay how the nervous system is actually correlated to that, which I really.

Why can't, like, two of us anxious people just find each other? You know, I'm like, why can't we love of girls with love of boys? Like, why do we have to find the opposite?

We have to. Because one, it validates our experience of the world, and two, it validates the nervous system's memory of what love is. So we can't. Because it wouldn't allow us to heal. Heal.

So do you think that we're. We're choosing this, like, subconsciously if I want to heal? Or we're choosing this, like, oh, my mom or my dad was never there for me, so this is how I know love. Or both.

Yeah. So I don't think that the universe ever makes mistakes in those categories. I don't think in any, I would be careful. None. Don't deliver me any new lessons, but be gentle. But I think it's that. No, we. We have a urinary to heal something that's unhealed. So we are drawn to dynamics that allow us to learn to trust ourselves again. And, you know, my wound that was in relationship 1.0 with my wife was that nobody chooses me.

And was that your relationship with your mother?

Yeah, there was, like, an element that we had. I have a sister and a brother. I'm the youngest. And there was an element that one. I'm. My mom's overwhelmed. She has three kids, she's studying. She's got so much stuff. And it was like, how do I stand out? How do I get what I need? And, you know, what we really want is a regulated mother, but the world is not regulating, let's be honest. And the other part of it is that I experienced quite a bit of betrayal in my teens in relationship with infidelity from partners. And so there was a lack of trust in the feminine. And if we get really deeply rooted. And I was working with Mark Walden, who's the world's foremost expert on inherited trauma, and he said, I need to know your birth story. Tell it to me. And I was like, well, I was born, I believe, five weeks early, and I was in a neonatal ICU for 10 days. He's like, ah. So my mom didn't touch me for 10 days. I was in an incubator. And we got to the recognition that, like, the deepest narrative that lives in, that lived in me, was, I'm terrified of being left by the feminine. And that wound. When I think about my whole life, till it wasn't till relationship 2.0, till the pause and then relationship 2.0, it was that there's just some level of they're not loving at the this. They're not ready to do what I'm ready to do. This, like, martyr too. Like, you don't choose me the way I choose you. You don't think about love the same way as I do. Which I think more women can probably relate to that type of narrative, which is probably why I'm good at translating it. And it was when I finally chose myself, when I finally got to the place where I actually just from a somatic sense. But, like, I was just done with being disappointed. I was done with recognizing that it's actually not the person I'm in relationships fault that they're avoidant, unavailable, or can't fully choose it. It's my fault that I keep choosing to consent and participate in these dynamics. I'm trying to change them my whole life. Meanwhile, I'm missing all these women who are like, I'm ready to choose you. I'm like, Nah, that sounds. That means you might leave me. So I'm just going to continue to stay with people who I will just live in the disappointment. I got to prepare myself for it. It's inevitable. But I hadn't actually learned that. I needed to learn how to say no. Fully full body no. Because that's the only way I can actually get to an authentic yes. That way when I choose a relationship, there's no, there's no wound that's living in the Joyce. It's actually a full bodied. Like I choose this, I'm committed to this. And that's what made relationship 2.0 so much more powerful, was it wasn't coming from a place we need to complete these wounds. We did that in relationship 1.0. It's like now we're actually coming from a place of, of true choice. And that's what relationship can create for us. That's what makes all these thoughts about finances and all that stuff relevant informationally. But what we're really trying to do is, is to get to clarity. And clarity comes from being able to trust. So if you can't, if you can't say no to what is not it, or you can't give voice to your experience about your fears, then your choices are always with small print. Does that make sense?

Yeah. And I wonder if our relationship with the parent of the opposite gender to us is what defines whether we're anxious or avoidant. Maybe the reason why so many women are anxious is because they have had these distant father figures just because of the way our society is structured, that men have had to like go off and work and not be there with the family. So I think a lot of women are just yearning like exactly how you were for your mom, for their dad, you know, and then, and then a lot of men grew up seeing their fathers like that and continue this avoidant behavior.

You know, there's two camps on this in my perspective and I'm not decided on which one yet. But Harvl Hendricks and Helen Hunt talk about an imago that's a match. And what imago really means is that you're drawn to somebody who wounds you in a similar way as the parent who wounded you the most.

So it's not necessarily a gender thing, it's just who wounded you.

Exactly. So you know, they're sort of a famous, I would say it's like famous narrative about relationship is you're drawn to your opposite sex parent. Right. Someone similar. But there's another belief which I'm playing with I'm not really in certainty about it yet, but it actually is ringing quite true now that I'm a parent which is that it really is all about mom in the very early part of our life, which is true developmentally anyways. So the way that a child develops their nervous system is by co regulating with their mother. So there's not really a clear line of when a kid can start to regulate. But let's say it's around three years old. So before that a kid actually has no ability to self regulate. They don't, they can't do it. So the way that they calm their system is through a parent. Parent generally mom. So even when a kid is sleeping beside their mother, an infant, when the kid starts to come out of deep sleep, the mother starts to come out of deep sleep, they're communicating on a completely like not like another level. Right. We're talking, it's a whole other level. The way that the breast milk is created is through a communication of what the baby needs. Like it's wild to me the magic that is happening that there. And you think about things and this will be a controversial sort of subject but sleep training. Sleep training is not in any way we were designed. I was sleep trained. But it's really saying you're this little baby who's does. You don't know that you're in a modern world, right. And there's a baby monitor and all the things are happening. You're a baby in a cave and there's wolves out there. So if you cry, you're trying to get your mom to come get you and if mom says I'm not going to, I'm going to train you, I'm going to put my hand on you but then I'm going to still leave you. You. The baby is learning. When I cry, no one comes. So the safest thing to do is not cry. Now the majority of us are sleep drained. That actually was recommended by pediatricians and, and, and, and that.

So this is why we're all traumatized.

I would say in large part there is an element to that you think about and, and to be fair the, and people will have lots. I'm sure in the comments there'll be lots of thoughts about the different types of sleep training. I interviewed an expert on this and there she was like there is really no way to like mitigate what's possible. But we also have to have compassion and context for the world that if you're a single mom with three kids or you're like overwhelmed Parents, it might be the thing you need to do. So there's no judgment on it. It's just, can we just bring some compassion to the person who needs to do that, but also compassion to the child who learns. When I need something, no one comes. And I think if you add to that, especially in the United States, I'm Canadian and it's a little different, but I'm now spend so much more time in the US I'm so much more privy to it is that maternity leaving the States is ridiculous. It's like six weeks I think is minimum. But in Canada it's a year. So I just think about how much we need our mothers. And again, I think this is a. We've said we need women working because that's equality. Sure, I can understand that. But we, we've also shamed the idea of a mother and like a stay at home mom. You're not crushing it. So there's like a woman can't win no matter which way, right? Because you'll get told you're not being a boss and you'll be told you're not being maternal. So there's like.

And then we've simultaneously made it so expensive that a man's income at large can't provide for family anymore the way that it used to be able to like 20, 30 years ago on average. Right. So then women are like, I would love to take a year off. He's like, I would love for you to take a year off too. I can't afford that. And then we're in this conundrum.

We end up in the same systems which if you think about it, which I've been playing with this more. I'd be curious what the people think in the comments. What you think is like, we're sold this idea that it's feminism that is like this reclamation of like get out there, work, crush it. But really what you're doing is entering the system of creating more, more productions. So now we have women in the workforce, which is great. I think it's a beautiful thing. Thing. And can we hold the complexities of this? Because as you're saying, the majority of. To live today you have to have dual income. And like now as a father, I'm just like, because my father was married before he met my mom, they got to. He got divorced and then met my mom. He was a single dad in the 70s, like, that's wild to be a single. And I was talking to him about it. He was like, it was, it was hard, hard and I'm like, I couldn't imagine. When I see single parents, I'm just like, this is why we need community, you know, because we're not meant to navigate divorces, breakups. We're not meant to navigate these things alone. We are communal beings, and can we build communities? Because liberated love just isn't about me and my wife or you and your romantic partner. It's a way of being which is saying, can we honor the truth first? First can, through honoring the truth, can we honor each other as individuals? Can we then create a family, community, connections that are about honoring people's journeys? Because when someone goes through a divorce and they're exiled from their family or a breakup, which is usually culturally and religiously based, which are sometimes synonymous, what we're saying is this culture does not tolerate divorce. So don't even think about it, because look what happened to them. But imagine a community that says to even one or both people, tell us about what you learned. What's your experience? How could we love you? Because I think the reason we don't excavate grief. And, you know, you said it so beautifully at the beginning that, like, you would never save someone from heartbreak now. And I, I am a firm believer that we try to save people from feelings we don't know the value of. And so imagine if we created one, relationships that are like, wow, I love you no matter what happens with us, and that being a lived truth, not just words you use, and then create families that are like that, and then create communities that are like that. Like how much wounding occurs because someone makes a choice in life or is betrayed and leaves a relationship, and they're blamed for leaving the relationship and not working on it again. The community is saying, if you want to keep relationships, you better get in line. And we are always asking this throughout our lives. We're asking two questions. Always, always, always, am I safe? And like, one of the greatest predictors of healthy corporate culture is, am I safe? Am I safe to be myself? And number one always comes ahead at number two. If I have to give up number two for number one, I almost always will till I create a liberated relationship. That's actually about number two. Number two and one, that actually, the more you are you, the safer we are because we can trust each other to tell the truth.

So beautifully said. And just for the last question, I'm curious, how have you created more of a sense of community around you, considering, you know, most of us don't live on a block with all of our friends? How have you Created more that sense of community, especially navigating parenthood.

Well, never has that become more needed or apparent in my wife and I's life. We're sort of living the questions. I think it's Rilke or someone who said that because, you know, right now our families don't live right next to us. We spend part of the year with Kylie's family and sometime with my parents. Parents. But like, I realized how much we need each other. Like our modern societies have said, go live in these places in the city and away from nature. And I now, you know, we see all these memes and reels that are like, my greatest dream is to buy a farm with friends. And I'm like, that's not a joke. I think we're all really live like that, and I think we're really yearning for that is like a return. And I think digitally that's happening is like we are exhausted from a nervous system perspective of so much connectivity that's actually void of like, real true connection. Which is not to say voyeurism.

It's not even. Yeah, connection.

Yeah. Which is not to minimize, obviously, the beautiful things that can be realized through technology, but to say a. Both. And like, if we spend all our time scrolling, we're not.

Not.

We're not being with the world. We forget about the magic of sitting by the ocean or sitting in person and having a conversation. And I think a lot of our anxieties are actually a callback to that. They're like the canary in the coal mine saying, hey, get back in to commune with nature with people. Break bread with people. Break bread with people you don't agree with. Now we're just like, oh, my uncle voted for this person. We don't invite him anymore. And I'm like, like, invite them. Don't let things like politics or beliefs about different things that we just all of a sudden we're not curious as much, you know, and it's a much safer to just believe that our ideology is the ideology. But no human system got healthier from a homogeneous way of thinking. Never. Never. Communities that have diverse thought and diversity are always healthier.

I love that. Well, thank you so much for sharing so much wisdom. This is definitely an episode that people can continue to come back to. And where can listeners get your new book, Liberated Love?

Oh, my gosh. You can get our book wherever you buy books. If you want to support local bookstores, you can go to bookshop.org but if you go to createthelove.com liberatedlove we have all the links to all the retailers, whichever one you want to choose. And there's also, if you put in your receipt, you can get a copy of a meditation we created with a workbook. And thanks so much for having me. It's so great to be able to be back in conversation with you in person. And thank you and thank you to you who are listening or watching. I just, I'm so grateful. I know you trade time to hear me, and I don't take that for granted.

Well, I know it's gonna help so many people. So thank you so much for tuning in. If you loved this episode, share it on your Instagram story. This is a really good way to spark these deeper conversations with your friends, with maybe someone that you're dating, with your partner. The only way that we can start to create these relationships where we feel seen, heard, interdependent while having a sense of self, while also simultaneously going for what I think a lot of us want, more, more community and more support is if we start the conversation. So this is a really good episode to share and be like, hey, let's talk about it. Like, what did. What did you hear? What did I hear? And. And dive deeper into these things that I feel. Like so many of us, we think on our own, but we don't necessarily then take that next step again of, of having that dialogue around. Be sure to tag us on Instagram. You can find his link and Instagram links below as well. And I'm so excited to continue diving into this journey with you. All right, I'll see you on the next one. Trust your intuition. Trust your inner wisdom. Trust your inner guidance. Close your eyes and listen. So trust your intuition. Trust your inner wisdom. Trust your inner guidance. Class.