552: How Heartbreak Leads To Greater Heart Opening with Rainier Wylde

I think we're so trained to look at love as, can I love you forever? And if not, let me just turn this off.

Right?

You know, because again, we're. We're afraid of the power and the enormity of love. We feel like it's foolish. We feel like it's like that, like little. Little girl in us, you know? But at the same time, think about all of the lovers that you could have had that could have taught you different things and brought you to different places, but you just said no.

I think that is one of the things that we have to give ourselves to, that. The risk that is in front of me, while it may very well lead me to heartbreak, I'm still willing to choose it because the potential reward of even that moment of being seen and being known and being loved is worth it.

Yeah. That's what life is about. Wait. Welcome back to the Highest Self podcast. My name is Sahara Rose, and on this podcast I love to take spiritual concepts, matters of the heart, and really break them down, because I feel like our society has a major love epidemic right now. It's something I've witnessed firsthand over the past year of being single and experiencing dates and heartbreaks and false hopes and, like, huge moments of WTF is happening, because I'm a certified lover girl by heart. But it ain't easy in 2024. So last year, fresh out of my divorce, I had this beautiful soul on the podcast Rainier. I'm going to link the episode below. It was so good. We were talking about romance and just the need for it in our society. And here we are now, flash forward a year, and he has a book coming out. And this book is about the other side sometimes of falling in love, which is leaving love. And equally important, that is, you know, we really romanticize that. Like, you know, you meet someone and you're so excited and you don't know where it's going to go. But you can't have those beginnings without those endings. And if there's anything I've learned from this year is sometimes the endings are the greatest blessings of your life. And sometimes if you don't have the courage to leave a relationship, God will do it for you. And that's really what I experienced in that who you are meant to become is on the other side of experiencing what was your biggest nightmare at that time, because you needed to experience that, to realize that not only will you survive it, but you will actually become the version of you that you fall in love with. So this episode, I hope I don't cry my pretty makeup on. By the. By the way, this is my first ever episode in my new home studio. Guys. I went on a fucking journey this year. Lived all over the place. I was like, I want to live in Portugal now. I'm going to live in London. My place gets broken in London and I'm like, okay, I'm going to stop traveling and create my own home base. And this is my first time ever in seven plus years of podcasting, having my own home studio. I started this podcast literally at my grandma's house on a $16 microphone, just, like looking out the window and, like, just talking about random things, thinking, you know, I'm not even doing this for anyone to listen. I just feel like having these conversations. And here we are now, like, I have a second bedroom, even that's just fucking cool, you know, and with a neon sign. So these are the kind of things that would have never happened had I not left the relationship. And sometimes the love story is really about you. And before we drop into this episode, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're listening to this podcast. That is the best way to stay up to date on the latest episodes. We've got this in video format, so if you're just hearing my voice, be sure to also watch our fabulous outfits on video as well on Spotify, YouTube or the Apple Store. This is the best way to stay in the flow with future conversations and also allows the podcast to reach reach more people. So hit subscribe so I can keep vibe with you on all future episodes. Now let's get into this one. So without further ado, let's welcome Rainier to the Highest self podcast.

Oh, my God. I am so honored to be the first guest in this amazing space.

So fitting.

Wow. And to get to be back at all is just my privilege.

So before we get into this, I always ask you, what makes you your highest self? But I feel like I want to ask you what. What really awakens your heart?

Well, I gotta tell you, this last year has just been such a humdinger for me. And part of this has to do with the book that we're going to talk about. But you talk about, like, what awakens my heart. My father died almost a year ago this month. And talk about an awakening. Whenever you experience a real passage like that and you're not numb to it and you're not anesthetized to that impact on your heart, that's an awakening. That sense of opening and closing, kind of that breathing space of love, what I realized was it takes an immense amount of courage to just get up in the morning some days. My sister, after my father's death, called like two weeks later, said, how are you doing with it all? I said, I'm just laying in the bathtub drinking whiskey most days. And we both kind of laughed because it was true. What I discovered in all of this is that joy and grief are so intimately wrapped up together. So you talk about what awakens your heart. Well, joy, doesn't it? For all of us? Oh, my God. We love to feel joy, but, oh, joy and grief, no, thank you. I want to cut away the grief. But what I realized is the real awakener is when we allow them to live together. I mean, joy and grief are twin brothers locked in this wrestling match. You know, they can't keep their hands off of each other. And we need to actually accept both of them together. I mean, they're just, they're pounding on us anyway. So the sooner we accept that, that twin reality of these, the more we can be open, I think, to the experience of living fully.

Yeah, so I feel like there's this, like, prevalent belief in the spiritual community of I want life to be easy. I want to live in a state of effortless ease. Very Abraham Hicks. You know, I'm just going to manifest my perfect reality. And so when people listen to, oh, you got to have grief. They're like, I don't want, I don't want the grief part. No, no, no, cut the, Cut that away. I'm going to manifest my way above that. But I feel what that does is it closes our hearts. And I feel that so many of us were so afraid of having our hearts broken again that we say we want love, but we're not willing to put ourselves at the line that is required for love. So how can one who's experienced deep heartbreak begin to build the pathway back opening, back to opening their heart?

Well, I mean, you just went for the jugular. I mean, that's the million dollar question of life. How can we work this all out again? Well, first of all, I would say there's no bypassing the human condition. You cannot escape this being human business. And we want to. We want to manifest our way out of it. Oh, wouldn't it be delightful if we could actually just escape it all, Become aliens, become Martians on some transcended planet. Somebody else. I was dealing with someone recently, and they said, I prefer other planets to Earth. I prefer aliens to humans. I prefer animals to us, too. And I thought, oh, you're not my people. What I prefer are the gritty moments of life, the tangible, touchable situations that occur in which real change happens. You cannot manifest your way out of heartbreak. Think of it. Every lover leaves every person, and then every relationship extends, and either death or divorce, one way or the other. I mean, I hate to be gruesome about it, but that actually is the prognosis. I mean, this life is a terminal illness, and the sooner we recognize that none of us are making it out alive, then we can get on with the good stuff of loving. So I actually have to understand that heartbreak is wrapped up in this, and that heartbreak actually opens my heart. Oh, everyone's running around saying, I want my heart to be open. I want my chakras to be open. Oh, my gosh. Do you know how that happens? It has to be shattered into a thousand pieces. That's how we open our hearts over and over and over. We risk. Actually, I love what you said, that this podcast started, you know, in your grandma's house, was it? And this $16 mic. Yeah. And that's it. You threw yourself into the moment, not knowing where it would go. It could have ended in miserable failure. And maybe there's even been moments when you've been really up against the wall. But all things considered, you keep taking the next step. I mean, thus is podcasts, thus is life, thus is love. That's it. It's showing up to the next step. No matter how chintzy or cheap or expensive, I give my all to this next present moment.

It's so true. And it's something that, like, only when you're in it, can you really experience it. Like, I remember in the throes of. Of, you know, right after my divorce, which was, like, I mentioned, a sudden divorce that happened as a result of a very big betrayal, and it was, like, complete. Just. My life was thrown upside down. I didn't know what to believe. I couldn't trust myself. You know, just the levels of feeling just so gaslit and confused. And I had never fully had, like, an on my knees moment like, I had with that of just, like, when life just like. And. And that was ultimately when I understood what surrender meant. Like, before that, it was just a concept, but to just be like, I have no idea what to do next. I don't know where I'm gonna live. Like, all. All these things, how to go through a divorce, let alone. And it's like, and I surrender, and I. And I know this is happening for something greater than me. And then you just you just pick up the next. The next piece. The next piece, the next piece, the next piece. And the greatest gift of it is the aliveness that it gave me on the other side of just the ability to feel. And I wouldn't give that up for anything because now I can see how I was, like, operating from, let's say, the radio spectrum of like, 800 to 1200. And now it's like zero to 10,000, you know, and. And then it just makes you feel everything more right. It's like I laugh and cry on a daily basis. You know, it's just like. And what you said about the. It's like something about the mornings. Like, you know, you heal when you stop crying, when you wake up.

Yeah. Oh, yeah.

You know, why is it the mornings?

You know, it's interesting. There's a. There's a poem in the. In the book where I talk about that. That I wake up early in the mornings just to imagine us dreaming together. And I remember kind of that feeling, whether it's been a lover who's left or great love, such as my father, who was lost. But that feeling of waking up very early in the morning, can't I just sleep? But no, those. Those are the beautiful, quiet moments, actually, where you are closest to that thing. Pablo Neruda, the great poet, he. He said her eyes were full of absence. I love that. Like the. The. The whimsy and nostalgia. He's saying, the thing I fell in love with was that she was somewhere El. That's so profound that actually, like, we kind of love those shimmering experiences we kind. We can't quite hold on to. Like, when a lover leaves us, there is a special sweetness that. And I didn't understand it fully, I have to be honest. About a month after the passage of my father, I was crying in a bar with my close friend who had lost his father a year earlier. And I said, does this end? Does this sadness ever end? He said, well, the acute pain will go away, but enjoy is a fine caviar you will never have happen again. He's not wrong, you know, a year later, you don't wake up so early in the morning. The acute pain is dissipated somewhat. That caviar has been taken away and someone else will dine on it. Enjoy it while it's here. Your job as a human is to have the human experience. You were not given a Martian's life. You were given this life. Live it.

Yeah. Like, when you're in it, though, I remember just. I'm like, I can't Wait until it's been one month. Like once it's been one month, things will be easier. And then it's one month and you're still so miserable. And then I'm like, it's three, the three month mark. That's what they say, the three months. I'm making it past that. It's like, no, it's the six month mark and then the one year and it's like. And I think grief never fully goes away.

Yeah, I've got, I've got a scar on my hand here and it's, it's actually a fairly large scar. And what happened was one October, I was going to make red curry. Seemed like a real good idea. It was actually Halloween. And I opened the can of red curry paste and, well, I didn't open the can fully and I sliced my hand pretty good. So I pick up my, my daughter at the time and whisker down to the hospital and you know, they stitched up this hand. And about a week later my hand started to swell uncontrollably. Had to go back to the hospital. Turns out they hadn't cleaned out the wound sufficiently. It gets cleaned out again. Restitched up all the things. I didn't sue the hospital. I probably should have, but I didn't think to. But this has always been a great illustration to me. Like unless we're with the pain sufficiently in the beginning, unless we clean out that wound sufficiently, unless we experience it, so to speak, actually you reopen it up, you rewound yourself later down the road. Healing starts to happen when we allow ourselves to be fully in the experience. And that's what the cleaning out process is. If you're too eager to sew it up too fast, you actually miss the healing.

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Yeah.

And we, like, instantly want to go into, like, what are the lessons I learned? And, like, how am I moving forward? And especially when love is. Is taken away from us, we're like, you know what I see happen? A lot of women going through divorces and breakups is oftentimes the relationship didn't have a lot of love and intimacy. So as soon as it's done, you're like, I want the love. You know? And we were just talking about the concept of, like, limerence of you just project that love on someone. This fantasy of this is the kind of person that will make all of this heartbreak worth it if I end up with someone like this. And then it's a mirage that we continue to chase and we continue to tie our worth to. Because I think it's so for someone who's, like, in it right now, they're in the caviar, but it doesn't feel like caviar of just like, it's my constant thoughts. Like, it's hard to have a normal conversation that's not about this grief. What wisdom do you have for them now being a year out of it?

First of all, I would say whatever that grief is, you have to allow yourself to fully experience it. Now, what that doesn't actually mean is drowning in it. Like, letting it flow through you means letting your experience happen. But know that grief, like all emotions, is a rapid experience. Like, I may have grief in the next 12 minutes. I might break down crying. Actually, earlier today on the way, I was reading the intro to the book, and I just. I felt the clutch in the back of my throat. My tears started to fall. My friend who was driving the car, he almost lost control of the car. He was crying, too. We were both sitting there sobbing at the intro to it. And. And you know, you're back at that grief moment. But the truth is, 12 minutes in, it dissipated. So one of the ways we need to experience emotions is to show up to them honestly. Right. Have the emotion and let the emotion pass. You know, emotions aren't supposed to be a swamp where you just pool in them, right? You're actually supposed to be in the river of them. So I let it flow into me. I let it flow out of me, and then I move on. And I know that a little later it will come in and go out again, you know, last year I stood In, I think, four different continents, 12 different countries, 17 different cities. All the joy you could experience is pounded into a year. And I also wept on all three of those great seashores. I cried in multiple cathedrals. I let the joy and the grief intertwine. When you read these stories in this book, you know, I firmly resist the notion this is a sad book. Like, there are beginnings wrapped up in it. Oh, my God. There's this one story, and I. I was reminded of it of a woman who falls in love with the loss prevention security guard. And she does so by calling him every time jewelry is stolen from her store. And she hears the safe voice on the other end of the line, hello, man. May I take the events of what happened? Yes. And so she falls in love with this very safe, secure presence. The only problem is she's married at the time. And of course, as happens sometimes, the marriage is a particularly poor one. Her needs aren't cared for. She feels neglected, maybe even abused. And contrast that with this reassuring presence on the other end of the line. The story kind of climaxes with him saying, do you want to meet for coffee? And she says, oh, my God, I. I don't know if I should. But then she does. She goes, she meets him for coffee. Her hands are trembling. She spills the coffee. She's nervous. He cleans it up. And then he looks at her and she says, in a grip of the moment, time stood still. And he said, are you happy now? These are strangers, ostensibly strangers. But in that moment, everything shifted in her life. This is a true story. Many of the stories in this book are true stories. This is a true story. And everything changed for her in that moment, you know? What does that mean? Well, it means that love's beginnings and love's endings are intimately wrapped up. I have no clue what happened next. Not really. We could only guess. Love happens outside in the backyards and. And the fields beyond the streets of right and wrong. Yeah. And so this beautiful encounter, this beginning, might happen wrapped up in these unseemly endings. We protest the endings, but we love the beginnings. The truth is, they go together. So if you're in an ending right now, know this too shall pass. Of course. And if you're in a beginning, Right now know this too shall pass either way.

So well said. So your writing is so beautiful. I want you to read some. I was sending you some screenshots like oh my God, this is so beautiful. But a couple of just the words that you shared. You know, one thing you said and I'll let you read whatever you desire to share. But you wrote this quote. We don't manifest love. Love manifests us. She summons us, crashes in and makes a mess of our well ordered world. You can't call in love, but don't ignore her when she calls you.

Boy. I have to tell you, if those just aren't the most true words, I would argue the single most salient characteristic of love is its inevitability.

That gives me hope.

It does not require your consent. It will simply come calling. Love is not a gentleman. Right. It will call your name even though you do your best to tune it out. I think I certainly have in my lifetime tried to tune it out over and over. Now the interesting thing is it will keep calling your name even after you ignore it. And, and, and you might ignore it in this person, you might ignore it in that person, you might ignore it in that person and you might even give up hope for love. But love keeps whispering. I think that's the beauty of it. We think that we can create control, contrive love. We. We have all of these boxes that they ch. Lists. The truth is you can't predict it. I mean, love is not a controlled burn.

Do you think love is a soul contract between two specific people? That you two will fall in love at some point? Or do you think it's more we become ready for love and then based on who's around us, we play the love game with them?

Yeah, well, I mean, I certainly do think that the people we summon into our lives are familiar presences. I mean, I don't have to start in a past lifetime to say that. I mean, I can just say that my childhood has pretty conditioned me to. To choose who walks into my life. I mean, my partner and I were the lock to each other's key or the key to each other's locks. However you say it. Like the reality is that we were so perfectly paired for each other, her avoidance met my anxiety so perfectly. Gotta love it, right? And so what are we? We're each other's teachers. We had this hammered into us in a particularly dark moment of our life. I like to tell this dark moment just to tell people that you can get out of dark moments. But I had confessed That I was unfaithful to my partner. And, in fact, I shared that in the last episode that you and I were on together. This was a really powerful moment of authenticity. It was also a very dark moment, as anyone can imagine, who's both said that and had that said to them. You know, being on my side of it, I was standing there watching everything, all the plates that had been in the air crash down around me. I knew that in the telling of that truth, I was probably going to lose everything. That's how it felt. And she knew in the hearing of it that the life that she had become accustomed to was changed in a moment and taken away from her, maybe even made foolish. It's a very decimating moment. You talk about eternity squeezed into a instant. You're watching your entire life flash before your eyes. Everything's eroded. Yeah. And I. I know that you stood there. You know, it's like, oh, my God, how we've all kind of been there in some way or another.

Time freezes, right?

Time stops. And that's what happened. Well, that night, she stays in the bedroom and I stay on the couch. And I hear her sobbing in the middle of the night. And then she says, will you come in here? So of course I do. And she says, will you kneel beside the bed? And I did. She says, will you hold my hand? So of course I do. And then she says, will you just get on the bed with me? I do. And then she says, will you just hold me? I mean, these are the unexplainable moments. Why did she choose to do that? And could I have responded differently? But I didn't. And in that moment, you know, the masks are off. We're laying there. It's really probably the first time I've ever authentically held her, and she's authentically been held by me. With our masks gone. Now, it could have spun out then, but here's the humor of this. The next day, we're at the beach, feeling real low, real dark, and we're walking down this gray Pacific Northwest coastline, feeling about as drab as it looked, when all of a sudden, a man who is shirtless, long, scraggly hair runs by us, and he's, like, doing, like, a personal jog dance, like, kind of a Richard Simmons thing, like, to, like, music that he's. And it is a very odd moment, like, we're feeling very down and he is feeling very up. And then as he runs by us, he turns around, so now he's running backwards. And he looks at Us. And he says, why so glum, guys? Now, I don't know if this is something you should say to people who look very down as a couple, but he says it. He went there, and it was so humorous to both of us. In that moment, we kind of like cracking up, but. But he says, what's wrong? Don't you two know that you're each other's teachers now? I have to say, if we were people who were a little sharper and edgier, we might have said, you know, screw off, buddy. But it was about the biggest truth of our life. In that moment. It was an angel unaware kind of moment that was like one of those incredible truths that this ridiculously happy gentleman shared with us in that moment that we were each other's teachers. And I was summoned, so to speak, out of all of the history that she needed to process through. And she was summoned, so to speak, to process through all the history I needed to. And in that moment, we committed, I think, to becoming one another's tutors, mentors in this game of life, this thing called love. Not easy, but if you can, as lovers, decide, no. I have conscripted you to become my teacher. What are you here? What are you proficient in? That I need. It's really the thing.

We think it's so true, because it should. You take it as the opportunity. It can be the opportunity to do all of the shadow work that you would have never done without something like this that's this big. But not everyone takes that choice. That's what I've learned. You know, like, for me, after that happened in my divorce, I was like, how was I in this relationship? How did I not know? What was my childhood? What was my ancestry like? I went so deep. And not everyone does that, you know, so what is it that. And. And how can we. Because I'm assuming people listening to this, they want to dive deep. How can we. Whether we choose to stay with this person or not, really not. I think what happens, especially around the concept of infidelity is like, screw that person. I remember one of the first books I read, and it was like, leave a cheater. It was like something like that. And it was like, they are the worst people on earth and they are all sociopaths and just get away from all of them. And I was like, you know, it's very easy to take that perspective, but I also am like, okay, how. How was I in this dynamic? What's my role? And then it's also easy to go the other end and be Like I'm responsible for it, which you're also not responsible. So what advice do you have for someone who's, who's in a situation like this to really dive into how can I heal what's in me that allowed me to be in this dynamic without then taking it on as your problem, as your. It is your life's work. It is. But I think we can self punish ourselves with it as well.

Well, and I think if my partner here, she would have her own very unique take on this because she had to do her work around that and that was the set of choices she made in that moment. But I think, you know, first of all, what I would say is whether you stay or go, inconsequential, you're going to have to do the work, no matter what, of confronting those wounded places in yourself, whichever side of things you're on. So I can only speak about my experience within that moment. You know, it was so important for me to see the pain I had caused. I think that's one thing that we sometimes leave. In that situation, it would have been very easy for her to leave or me to leave. And if that would have happened, I can say, at least in my experience, I might not have gotten to see close up the pain that I had caused this person I loved. But instead, still I have the weeping in my ears ringing still. She texted me today, we're still together and many years later, and she said, oh, I miss you. When are you coming back? And you know, I've been going for a bit on these things and, and I said, oh, I don't like causing you sadness minutes. You know, how many years it's taken to, to have that low threshold of I don't want to cause this person pain. But had I not seen that direct impact, I might not have gotten there. So it was a growth curb for me. So I think that one of the things, again, if we're talking about how to live in reality as it is, I actually have to, one, show up to my authentic experience. I can't bypass it. Going back to our conversation earlier, I have to show up to my grief, I have to show up to my despair. I have to show up to my pain. Two, I have to, potentially, at least I have the option to describe it, use my words, especially if I'm in relationship. The pain that I'm experiencing right now is, you know, Mary Oliver says, tell me of your despair, I'll tell you of mine. And I think that that actually is the core of the beginning of relationship that I listen to you. You know, she also, within this, had to experience something. And for her, she would later recount, like, it was so important to understand her complicity in creating those situations, which honestly, I would have never. I would have never said, oh, you should meditate on this set of thoughts. Listen, I am the first to say I was not great. But for her, that became an important set of questions that you kind of said, my ancestry I want to look at. You know, where did I come from that would have made me tolerate that behavior. Why would I have, you know, all of these things? So both of us began to show up to our own selves with radical authenticity. This is what my experience is. This is who I am in the world. This is what's going on. And then we began to show up in such a way where we listened to one another, not just the parts we liked. I would say that 12 step of self acceptance and authenticity to the other person is so necessary potentially to get through those moments. I also want to say another thing. Not everyone should stay. Just like I would say, not everyone should leave. Yeah, but not everyone should stay. Some people hear our story, which we. We had our own podcast dedicated to this Love Like Hell, where we detail this. This journey of ours. A lot of people come away saying, oh, my God, there's hope. Thank God there's hope. And, well, there is, but you actually have to have two willing party. So one thing I do want to say is the condition for that, you actually have to have two people who really are willing to make it work. And if you're not, and you do have to know yourself, you have to say, actually, I'm not available to that journey. That's not where I am. That's not the path that I need to be on right now. You need to be honest about that with yourself first and foremost.

I think there's this beautiful moment that happens after infidelity, a breakup, a decision to divorce, where you're so honest with each other for the first time because the veil is gone and you're no longer trying to woo this person over. Put your best face forward that you can just say all the things that you would have never said because. And it's a death whether you choose to stay in that relationship or not. That relationship is done. Yeah, and it's a. And it's a rude fucking awakening. But some of the best conversations I ever had with my ex were in those few days afterwards. Like, here's what I was really feeling about this thing the whole time here's where you. And you could, like, actually just like you're seeing a person for the first time in your life, you know, and. And if only we could start a relationship like that, you know, if only we could start a relationship with such honesty of like, here's, here are my wounds and here are my triggers, and here's my shadows. But at the beginning of a relationship, we want the love so badly that we're like, well, if I tell you all of these things, you might not love me, and then I won't get to be in love. And I really want to be in love. So how do we start a relationship with honesty when there is that natural inclination to put our best foot forward?

Yeah. You know, this book is divided into two halves, endings and beginnings. So even though I firmly maintain that they are wrapped up into each other, I, in part tell the stories. They are separate events. Every beginning starts with an ending, though. So we start with endings first. But I think that what you're describing is like, well, again, maybe part of that question, how do I shortcut the natural processes of developmental. You know, like, part of development is I am so, so entwined with that merging process. I don't see them. Yeah, I don't think you can actually.

That's, yeah. Supposed to just happen.

I think it's going to happen whether it's supposed to happen or not. Like, the urge to merge is so high that I'm.

Urge to merge. I love that.

It's like I dissolve into them and you can say, oh, I shouldn't call them back. Oh, I shouldn't text them immediately and pump the brakes. Yes. Don't go off the cliff quite so soon. But also know that you're driving on us. You're going to slide in there no matter what. Part of your job. In the first stages of love is merging. The next stage of love develops. What is that? Well, part of that is negotiation. You know, there is a. There is a going theory these days that we either have compatibility or we don't. And I firmly maintain that compatibility is created. We create compatibility through our willingness to negotiate. I bring myself to the table. My wants, my desires, my truths, and you do the same. And we begin to have a dialogue of experiences. The first stage is chemistry. You either merge or you don't. The second stage is a collaborative process. It's teased out over time. A lot of us want to skip that stage and just get straight to the good stuff. But you need that prolonged negotiation where I see how you are and I see if I can live with it. What can I tolerate? What can't I tolerate? What do I need more of, what do I need less of? And who are you? I think a great question is can I live with it?

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I am all in like people who.

Are like, yeah, I really love everything about him but like his breath. I'm like, what?

You know, and there was a girl, this is an embarrassing moment who had clunky brown shoes and I broke up with her because of the clunky brown shoes, if I'm really honest. And that probably wasn't a great moment when I was 18, but that was like a Seinfeld moment, you know. And so you can actually be very avoidant in love. You're nitpicky, you're. You're trying to again avoid.

I have friends that are. So he needs to be. His face is not symmetrical enough, he's not tall enough, he's not this. I'm like, are you a model scout or you're looking for. But it's, it's our fear, it's our protection mechanism, you know, and, and so yeah, so for those of us who tend to be more on the lover girl Lover boy side or just like that. Desire to merge is so strong and you love love, but then sometimes it makes you just see love and maybe over. I won't even say I think they even like, what is a red flag, really?

Well, first of all, we all have red flags, and red flags are incredibly subjective. Now, that having been said, there's probably some CR flags, right? Like, can they talk about their emotions? I would actually say that today in a modern culture, we need to be able to communicate what we're thinking and feeling.

Yes.

So someone who's not revealing themselves, not showing up and sharing who they are, not actually describing what's going on in their world, that, to me, is a red flag.

I think a lot of us don't do that though, because of these, like, seduction games. You know, like, it's huge on Instagram right now, this dark femme, which they've turned it into kind of like the art of seduction thing. And I know men have their own the game or whatever else. So I feel like people are trained not to say how they feel because they're afraid if I say how I feel, I'm going to come off as too needy, too much, and you're going to run away from me. And I would much rather be the one who's being pursued and you the one chase. But then both people, men and women I see today, are wanting to be pursued, and then love doesn't have a chance to happen.

We've got to stop playing games with each other. I mean, there's this. There's this joke that is a really ridiculous joke that Osho used to tell and, and it's kind of a humorous one. I'm sure he didn't invent it, but. Of an elderly couple who show up to a doctor's office and they say, doctor, we. We are concerned that we're not having sex in the right way. Would you observe us? And so the doctor is highly unusual, but okay. And so they pay their 15 copay and. And they make love in front of. Doctor says, hey, guys, it all checks out. I think this is great. Good job. You know, you guys are in your 70s, but it's all working so well. The next week they come back and they say, well, we're unconvinced. We feel like there's something wrong. Would you mind taking another peek? And so they pay their 15 copay. And no, I feel like it's. Do it. You guys are doing it. Well, third week, show up, they pay the 15 copay. The doctor says, guys, in good conscience I'm not available. This. What gives? And the gentleman said, well, here's the deal. She can't come to my place because I live with my kids. I can't go to her retirement home because all the orderlies are nosy. This place is cheaper than a hotel, so we just pay the 15 copay. Now, can you imagine being so contrived, so absolutely conniving. How ridiculous. And most of us are that way, in love.

I thought you were going to say they were getting off on being.

Well, that also might be their kink. But I think the reality is, like, a lot of us are playing games with love. Stop being so contrived.

Yeah.

Stop actually contriving love. Instead, show up to it.

But what is a game even, like, okay, for example, you said, pump the brakes. Don't text so fast. I'm someone. I see a text, I respond to it instantly.

Yeah, I actually think that's the right move. When I say, like, we say pump the brakes, we say we should slow down. I actually don't think you're going to be able to. I think it's good to, like, remember you don't know this person. Don't elevate them to a main character status when they haven't auditioned yet. Like, you need to probably.

Isn't that so funny how we do that? That we're like, you meet someone and then you're, like, changing plans for the next few months of your life, expecting this thing to work when, like, you just might not even be talking in one week. But I think we're just all so excited about the possibility of there being this like. Like main character person in our lives.

I think one of the things we have to confront is that a lot of us are not engaged with the other person. We're addicted to the process of emotional intensity. This is something increasingly, I think about how it has played out in my life and how I observe it play out for so many others. I think there's three distinct stages to emotional intensity in this addiction. And it almost always starts the same for me. And let's see if it plays out this way for you. So you meet someone, it's a pretty decent contact, and maybe you're bandying text around, or maybe you've met up, or maybe you've had a FaceTime. But inevitably you drop in, in this moment, and this is the statement that really suckers me in. Who are you? What is this? Oh, my God.

What planet are you from?

What planet? Yeah. What species are you? And all of a sudden, you Begin to familiar. You begin to see possibility. In fact, what you fall for in that moment is the possibility of the relationship. So that becomes the first stage of emotional intensity. And if you can think about it this way, you sub out the real person for a potential relationship connection and you become very excited. You borrow against a potential future to create excitement in the moment. Oh my God. Mom. He' just like dad. Can you believe it? I really think this is going somewhere. And all of your enthusiasm is future oriented. What I would say is that is a fairly expensive fuel. If you're thinking of it in terms of burning fuels. That fuel positive possibility is actually pretty rare and pretty costly. You'll burn through it. So then you go looking for a cheaper source. Enter the second stage of emotional intensity. Addiction. What we really need to do is problem solve. I mean, you're on the other side of the country or, or our parents are against us or name the problem. We then begin to get off on solving problems. That now becomes the new source of emotional intensity. Oh my God. Oh. And then when we figured it out, it felt so good. I'm the rescuer or she's the rescuer. You name it it and it feels good. And that is a pretty good fuel source for a really long time. A lot of couples are locked in the problem solving phase. But you know what? That fuel source also eventually burns. Enter the third stage. This is the cheapest fuel, the most abundant fuel. Pathology. Who the hell are they? They're awful. My God. What planet are they from? All the butterflies of the first stage. Now are the fire breathing dragons you like? How could they do this? I conscripted them to teach me how to be chill and come to find out they're lazy. You know, and all of a sudden everything that looks so cute in the beginning is gross and abominable. And we pathologize them and they pathologize us. And you know what? That emotional intensity, while we would never say it feels good, is actually still part of the addiction. It feeds our niche. Need to keep the intensity going. You know what's interesting? At no point in that three stage cycle have we seen the person we're in connection with. How do we get off of it? Well, we get off of it by looking at the person as they really are. Not the potential, not the problem to solve and not the pathology. And for most of us, if we're really honest, that's too expensive, that's too costly a process. And so we usually end those relationships and then go looking for the next high to fill the void with.

So I have a question for you. When you say look at them as they really are, I feel like then that puts us into the do they fit my list? My. My perfect guy list. So then if they don't, well, it's like kind of no one ever does.

It's true. And again, we get into that compatibility. I think part of. Part of the thing is I'm seeing them as they are, but I'm also owning up to who I am. So that's that moment I described a few, you know, instances ago where it's like I'm seeing my partner for the first time, she's seeing me. It usually happens when things fall apart at the very point of the process where I could pathologize them. Instead, I see them as a person, a person who had unique experiences, a person who is going through something right now. I take the most generous view of who I'm sitting across from, while at the same time taking the most generous view of myself.

Well, yeah.

And so in that compassionate.

But can you even fall in love.

From that place if we're going to fall?

Like, if I look at them, I'm like, yeah, this person is this problem. That problem, that problem. I think the l. You get the ick.

Yeah, well, and I'll. I'll just be really honest. I've only have had it happen once, really. And that's the situation I just described.

To you, that you saw all of them, including their shadows, and then continued.

To fall in love and leaned in then. So it can happen. I would also say it's pretty rare. Yeah, I think it takes a great degree of awareness. I think it also takes a great degree of commitment and willingness to yourself, to your own process to keep the lights on inside and not to go back to sleep. I think not everyone is ready for that, nor should we be. Like, sometimes we just. Just want the feeling again.

Do you think that, like a situationship can work where you see this person and you're like, well, yeah, I can see who you really are. And you're not someone that I see myself with forever. But there's a love, there's an attraction here. So let's explore it for however long it feels good. Do you think that we can actually, like, stay in that and end it cleanly, or do you think it just kind of ends up in this? Like one person's eventually going to want a relationship and the other person isn't, and then it ends up even more heartbreaking because you're kind of Mourning the loss of what could have been.

Maybe. And to be honest, I don't have a great answer for that particular question. But what I want to actually say is either one conditions a potential positive or perfect outcome in which we stay together forever and we have the most amazing relationship. And what I would say is, let's just call a spade a spade and say, you can't escape heartbreak. Either the situationship ends or doesn't. We get married, we have the 2.5 babies, we raise a wonderful poodle hybrid together. We love each other, we move to another country, we live there, we're very happy. And then, what, 55 years later, they die or we die. Heartbreak.

Yeah.

So we can't escape the human condition. We think that we can reason and contrive our way into it. We're not going to be able to. So what I say is actually throw yourself into the experience in front of you. Show up to it. Yes. This ends. God, I have fallen in love across a coffee shop with people that lasted for 15 minutes. Oh, my God. And then when she left me 15 minutes later, I was heartbroken. And I think it's okay.

I think we're so trained to look at love as. Can I love you forever? And if not, let me just turn this off.

Right.

You know, because again, we're. We're afraid of the power and the enormity of love. We feel like it's foolish. We feel like it's like that, like little. Little girl in us, you know? But at the same time, think about all of the lovers that you could have had that could have taught you different things and brought you to different places, but you just said no.

I think that is one of the things that we have to give ourselves to. That. The risk that is in front of me, while it may very well lead me to heartbreak, I'm still willing to choose it because the potential reward of even that moment of being seen and being known and being loved is worth it.

Yeah. That's what life is about.

If only for a moment. Right. And life itself is momentary. You know, my. My youngest son, he's 10 years old, and he's quite a good soccer player, and he's going to love that. I'm telling this story straight out of the gate they put him in, and he scored four goals against an undefeated team. Oh, he was so proud. Riding high. Golden red hair is, you know, bright in the sun. His green eyes are shimmering and he's jubilant. And then the coach pulls him out because we need equal playtime. For all the players, and the players who aren't quite as good, they come on the field, and wouldn't you know it, the other team scores six goals. And I see my son's shoulders slouch. And he says, put me in, coach. Put me in. And it's last couple of minutes in the game, and the coach looks at him and says, all right, go in. And I tell you what, my son gets the ball, is racing down the field, he scores. And then the pitch. And he's got the ball again. Now he can tie it up. He can tie it up. And as he's running down that muddy field towards the other end, he jukes, he slides right, he twists left, stuff. And then he trips somebody's leg extends, and he falls flat into the mud. And I see him fall flat in the mud. I see that other kid take off the ball. And my son looks over at me, looks over at me, makes eye contact, and I mouth, play your heart out, knowing he's gonna lose now. Play your heart out. He gets up off the ground, tears streaming down his muddy face, and he heads after the ball. He doesn't make it in time. They score, they win. Someone else is carried out on someone else's shoulders, and he trudges back and I hug him. And I say, you played your heart out. That's life. None of us win. None of us win. How did we play the game? Did you play your heart out?

And that's just, you know, such a good metaphor of sometimes we look in to relationships that didn't work and we shame ourselves. How was I in that relationship? How did I allow this thing to happen? But it's like you played your heart out. You loved. Like no time you loved was ever wasted.

That's it. In fact, if you loved it all, you were one of the lucky ones. I mean, think about how often people describe themselves as lonely stadium, isolated and alone. You know, love may not last forever, but I think every moment that love is there is an eternity wrapped up in a couple of minutes. Maybe love while you have that minute, you may never get that minute back. Play your heart out, right? There's something. Can. Can I read something? Is that. Okay, this is at the end of the introduction. My father was a minister, and I don't necessarily ascribe to any particular faith tradition, but, you know, it's interesting because I think I was raised with some really beautiful stories that have impacted and continued to gain a foothold in my thought life. And I end this particular introduction with the set of thoughts at times, we may have given up believing that we are even worthy of arms opened so widely, we're a love whose hands are outstretched. We imagine that love should pass us by. The voices of judgment and unworthiness become so loud that we believe they're our own. Sometimes we think the best we can do is put our heads down, grit our teeth and make it. The world becomes a silent witness to our loneliness. And love takes on a heroic quality of someone else elsewhere. Here my mind goes to a story I heard often as a child from my father's pulpit. Jesus is on one shoreline as an exhausted group of disciples struggled in their boats, rowing against the wind. They'd fished all night and caught nothing. He invites them to simply cast their nets on the opposite side. The empty strands are suddenly filled with fish. And in that moment, one disciple sees Jesus on the shore and dives out of the boat and swims to embrace him. What a brave act. Think of it. Mundane living. Repetitive. Hopeless. Exhausted. And then came an invitation from a person to try something new. A shift, a sudden awakening. The cold air of the morning is interrupted. A harvest where there had been none. Miraculous. But the miracle in this story isn't food. It is of a desperate man in a boat leaping forward out of safety into the murky waters towards the one he loved. He could have drowned, but he didn't. Love held him. Real love does that. Doesn't holds us. It holds on to us. Because the truth is that after so many years of loneliness and heartache and struggle, it's simply not interesting to be alone anymore. You want to love and be loved. You want to be wrapped up in everything waiting for you on the shore. And you're willing to brave the cold waters, the unforgiving current, and any degree of darkness just to be enfolded in the arms you believe will hold you. You're willing to endure the temporariness, the pettiness, the grief of every little death that life contains. You're ready for something deeper, something more. That's the miracle. One of faith, one of hope, one of love. And I think that's really everything that I want to say. That jump out of the boat. Yeah. Towards that which is waiting for you on the shore.

Yeah. So beautifully said of, like, the mundaness of life. And then all of a sudden, there's the harvest and it's love. It's this like. Like glimmer, this potential to feel something more. And. And that's why every song and every movie is about it. And it's. It's a Drug. It's like the natural psychedelic experience that's like built into us and. And there's a reason why, you know. But I feel that this construct of like, marriage and responsibility and roles has like. I can't say destroy love, but it diluted it, you know, that now love has become this like, decision. It's like, oh my God, this like hot potato have in my hands of love. Where do I throw it? Let me find the richest, most successful person. Put it over there. It's not really fitting. Let me try, you know, because if I just fully loved who I wanted to, maybe I would love the homeless Rastaka on the side of the street and then that would be my life.

Then mother really wouldn't be impressed.

Yeah. But I'd have some great dreadlocks. Yeah. So how can we like love and relationship, can they go together?

Didn't Frank Sinatra say that love and marriage, Right. I mean, that is the question. But I love what you're saying because the truth is that rightly understood, if I allowed myself to truly love, to give myself to that experience, I might find myself in the most unexpected places.

Oh, sometimes I'm like, no, I can't have a crush on this person. No, this is not allowed. And then you stop your yourself.

Right? And who gave us those rules? And who said those rules ever lead to happiness? I think that's one of the most interesting things about our modern society is that we keep on playing games that we did not create with rules that we did not make or even consent to and aren't even making them, the game players and the rule makers happy. Isn't that interesting that actually like our beliefs about love or our beliefs about what relationship should be, which condition us to choose or even to see the person in front of us. They're rarely working. But we keep playing the same games over and over, hoping it will get us to someplace that hasn't really gotten too many people. I think we have to be willing to doubt, take the radical statement and step of I doubt that which does not feel loving to me. I doubt that which does not actually hold as my best interest that which me makes me feel the most love. Love. I think we need to make love our North Star. And that feeling of, does this actually feel good to my nervous system? Does this feel easeful and kind? Yes, it's with the homeless Rastafarian, but my God, I've never felt my nervous system feel so settled.

And I think love has this intelligence because it gets us places that nothing else would have. That like, let's say my life path was to become a Rasta in Jamaica. Maybe it will be one day that it's like, what a perfect plan that God would put in place of like, there's one.

Yeah.

Cupid hit, hit her, hit her with the bow. And then it's almost like when you have a crush on someone, you're like obsessed with them and you want to know everything about them and you want to know where they're from and you want to know their interests. And it's like this, like encyclopedia you can't stop reading in a way that nothing else really can. And. And then it. That's why people like move across the world and make these radical decisions. But sometimes it was about, you were actually meant to live in Jamaica. You were actually meant to co create this film. You were actually meant to do this thing. But only love would have been powerful enough to bring you there.

And again, we don't manifest love. We don't boss it around. It actually pushes us. And I would say love is so transformative because that. Take the next step, you don't know where it takes you. All you can do is show up to that next thing, that next moment. Well, that's your job. We cannot plot out and plan out life. Listen, I think we've got to stop controlling life. Really interesting things happen when we stop trying to coerce and control life. Yeah. When we stop resisting reality as it is.

And I think, like, we've pathologized love so much that then when we do have this beautiful gift of love, we're like, why do I love this person? Is it my anxious attachment spell? Is it my inner child? Is it my this? And then it's like you had this gift and you just tore it to shreds. It's like you had the brownie and now it's, it's the, it's the wheat here and the. But it's, it's deconstructed, you know, and this doesn't taste so good anymore.

Yeah. You know, I learned a long time ago that I am capable of taking a car apart, but it usually doesn't run too well once I do. And I think a lot of us have decided we're going to take relationships apart. We're going to look under the hood. But not too many of us are capable mechanics.

We do it because we're afraid of making the wrong decision.

Right. And again, we have this ideal or this perfect outcome of how it's got to be shed. The perfect outcome. There's no Perfect outcomes. You know, part of my dedication in this book was I wanted to show you a picture of what love actually is. Not just the beautiful moments, but the ugly ones, too. I didn't want to pathologize or prescribe or commentate on love. I wanted to put the mirror up and show you your experience without trying to make it good or bad or right or wrong, just what is. Wouldn't that be okay, to love the human experience that much?

And I think that, like, your heart's going to be broken regardless, right? Whether you fall in love with the Casanova and it happens next week. Whether you fall in love with the perfect guy with a secure job and it happens when you or him have an affair, when it happens when you marry the perfect, safe, soul flame, whatever guy, and one of you dies, it's gonna happen.

So just love, love, love, love, and take the next step. Whatever that next step is. Knowing that you can't predict the 30th step or the 300th. Live this next moment well, you know, I want to be a lover. That, that is just my, my core truth. Like, I want to show up and at the end, I don't want to be someone who's protesting very much. I don't want to be someone who's scared. I don't want to be a politician who's trying to control or gain votes. I don't want to be a fixer or a rescue. I just want to be a lover. Someone who showed up and said, how can I give all of me to the goodwill of this person sitting next to me, whether they're my son or my father or my friend or my partner or even you in this podcast moment, like, how can I extend my well being to yours in this moment?

A piece of advice that my friend Layla Martin gave me, and she's definitely a lover herself. And I'm like, how do you deal with dating apps and, you know, hookup culture and situationships and all of that? She's like, for the first three dates, I show up like the wife I want to be.

Oh, beautiful.

And she's like, I show up fully, emotionally there, interacting how I would want to be in the relationship. And if they can't meet me there after the third date, then I end it. And it's so the opposite of how we are trained to be of, like, be mysterious, reciprocate how they are with you. So if they took four hours to respond, you take four hours. In fact, take double the amount of time, take eight hours, and then it's like. And I loved that advice. And I just started showing up that way of, like, this is the. This is how I want to be. I want to be able to text you, and I want. I want to be able to just share what I want. And if that's too much for someone better to know sooner than later and, like, coerce someone into this game, then the moment you drop the game, they're. They're gone. And there's the heartbreak that you were trying to avoid.

Years ago, I was teaching a class to a group of men, and I made the statement that authenticity is the foundation of relationships. And I had one particular young man who apparently had become very good at deceiving the people he was dating. And it didn't seem to end too well. They felt lied to, they felt cheated. And he always felt like he, you know, was the victim of this and that he wasn't getting the right kind of partner, and it just wasn't great. And I kind of kept on trying to hold the mirror to him and saying, you know, the brutal, honest truth, which is, you know, if you keep on being inauthentic with them, I think you're going to. To keep on having heartbreak happen in this particular way. Wouldn't it be better if you shared who you were and showed up as you were? He's like, well, what if they're not into the things I'm into? You know? And I'm like, well, I can only imagine. But. But let's just play that out. So, you know, you never share. And then, you know, it's 25 years later, you're in a marriage and they don't know you, and they wake up one day and they're like, oh, my God, he's been into this the whole time, and this doesn't end well. Well, he kind of ho. Hummed about it, went his own way. About two years later, I got an email from him just out of nowhere. It only had the headline on. It said, you were right. It's a whole lot more fun when you show them who you are. I love that. First of all, I love being right. So that was fantastic. But. But, I mean, that's just it. Can I show up who as who I am from day one? Not playing the game. Oh, my God. Quit playing the game.

Yeah, it's almost like love happens when you just drop your guard.

That's it. We think that we can erect walls and they'll keep us safe. First of all, you're still going to get hurt. Second of all, the walls that we build out of fear, prevent the love we want.

And I think it's that fear of, let's say you were in a situation that was toxic, infidelity, abusive, that you're so afraid of ending up in that situation again. And you do all this personal work, work to notice the red flags. And here's what I could have done differently. And like, why, like, why didn't I see this? So then you have all these, these walls. But it's also like wisdom, but I think it's just trusting that once you learn the lesson, you just don't learn it again.

Yeah. And you know what I want to say? I think that there again is a pathologizing of our past relationships. And we often say, oh, God, oh God, that hurts so bad. Quite wisely, we don't want to repeat it. I wonder if we could frame shift a little bit and say, and yet, weren't those also your teachers? And yet didn't you also grow from that? And so isn't even the painful thing, the tragic thing, the thing that I would never want to repeat nor wish on anyone, isn't that also something that we gained? Is there any way to lose if love is our teacher? Right. So we might say, well, well, again, bad love, though. Well, here's the deal. You know, life is a river flowing us towards that oceanic consciousness in the end, that great sea. I think that love is kind of like a series of life rafts that we latch on to as we go. And the reality is that we often want to hitch our rides to the yacht. But even bad relationships like drifting would get us further down the stream. So either way, keep going. Yes, there's bad love and there's better love. Don't repeat the same mistake. But no, it still took you farther. You can actually be grateful to all of the teachers in this life, including the bad teachers.

And I find that once you learn a lesson, you can't unsee that thing, you know, you're so afraid of, what if I end up back in that situation? But that's the importance of the grief.

Yeah.

When you fully grieve that thing, when you go and you taste that rock bottom, once you can even feel that energy in another person, the love isn't really there anymore, you know, and. And there's maybe different lessons and different flavors of heartbreak that you need in life, but I find that it does always get better. And every love becomes truer because it's. It's this newer version of you that's, that's showing up and it's also like oftentimes in relationship, it's like you remain energetically stuck at who you were when you entered the relationship and then maybe you're with that person for 10 years and then let's say you break up. You entered when you were 25, you break up when you're 35. Now it's. I found for myself, I had to like go back to all those ages and relive them, like date what I would have dated as if I was 24, as if I was 25, as if I was 26, and learn those lessons that I wasn't, wasn't dating. Did that happen to you?

Absolutely. I mean, and I had to make up for a lot of lost time, I think is one of the realities of that. Yeah, I mean, I think again, there's no way of bypassing the human experience. You and I were talking earlier. I thought relationships were my great shortcut out of development. Right. And so a relationship, whatever relationship it was, would get me out of whatever the set of choices I needed to make. So when I'm 18, you know, it's like I, I probably need to grow up, be responsible. Great, I'm going to get married. This is the ultimate responsibility. She becomes the shortcut. Or later. You know, when I needed to get out of the relationship, well, I couldn't do the hard work of being authentic and honest and naming what I actually needed. Instead, I needed a crowbar, needed a relationship out. So I chose someone. Awful, awful way to get out of something. I took a short that. And then later, later I met someone else. And instead of actually developing and growing in love, instead of actually choosing to develop who I was. Oh, another relationship. We tend to substitute actual work for relationship. Yeah.

Because being alone, I will say it's, it's been the most confronting thing of my life. You know, someone who was a four year relationship and a seven year relationship and now been single for over a year and it's like, oh, I see why someone would want to jump into another relationship. It requires so much just like not just self control because definitely I haven't even been tempted. It's more just like that yearning, this deep yearning of like wanting to merge, wanting to feel at home with someone but knowing that if it's coming from that place, it's never going to be true.

Yeah. It actually won't be out of that deepest and grounded sense of self. And then you'll have to relearn that lesson.

Yep.

That thing that you avoided learning. I mean, listen again, there's no bypassing. You're going to have to learn it at some point in time. And you will. But will the stakes be higher? Yes.

Yeah. Sometimes you can learn some lessons on your own. So then you're entering into the relationship from a higher octave. But I see a lot of people, like, two weeks out of their divorce, they're in another relationship, and you're just going to get off on that. That floor and just continue on with that, with that lesson. But I have empathy. I understand why. Because I think we are so. We're so disconnected culturally that we're all, like, living alone in our own apartments in our own cells, that it's like when you lose your primary person in your life, you lost your entire village. So it is like, you know, when I do feel those levels of, like, yearning or loneliness, I remind myself, I'm like, I have friends that pick me up, up from the airport and, like, show up to travel with me and I can talk to and voice note to, like, I have so much intimacy in my life in all of these different ways. And, like, we even romanticize that. It only can come from romantic love. And it's like, I have found the truest loves in my life, have been my friends.

Oh, they will outlast most of your romantic relationships anyway. I think we have to acknowledge that friendship is a relationship too. Right. I love that what you're saying, like, I can create a web of meaningful connection and many kinds of web loves. Right. Platonic, familial, vocational, all of these different things. Our culture is one of the only cultures across history that has ever romanticized romance quite as much as we do. In fact, I think in the absence of a kind of a cultural sacred understanding, a cohesive understanding, we have made romance our God. And so romance becomes the new God, Love becomes the new God God. You know, therapists are the new priests and confessional. And, you know, it's like I'm looking for a rescuer who will come in and absolve all my sins. And so I'm waiting for the person to come in and show me, oh, my God, you're okay, you're okay. You know, we're still looking for someone to save us rather than doing the deep work of actually saying, no, no, no, no, what you need to do is look in the mirror. So I went to Crete two years ago. Go. This is such a funny story to me. Mainly because I get to do an accent. It won't be a great accent, but I'll make you endure.

I don't Know Cretan accents. So.

Oh, thank God, I'm making up my own here. So, you know, a gentleman and I met, he was older and he took me out into the mountains. This is a real kind of guru moment. He was just an average guy, but I was having so many just incredible mind expanding moments with him because what he was saying had so much wisdom. And I asked him, I said, you know, like, tell me about your life. And so he did. And then he says, he says, you know, in the towns that I go to, priests are my favorite people. And I go, oh, well that's interesting. Why is that? He says, well, because they confess to me. And I said, really? Why, why would they confess you? He says, because priest has no one to confess to. So they talk to me. And so that was very interesting. He says, well, what is it you do? And I said, well, I, I, you know, I, I'm a, a coach and a, a writer. And he said, oh, how many book you write? And I said, well, I had written one at that time. And I said, well, one. He goes, no, that is accident. You write two, then it is actually a real profession. So that's why I basically had to write this second book just to impress him. And he said, but what do you do before that? I said, well, I used to be a therapist. And he said, oh, that is job. And I went, oh my God, you know, like, what do you mean? He said, no, I don't mean disrespect. Like we live in society so we need these kind of professions. And I, you know, I'm taking a little offense to it at that point in time because this is my tribe still. And I say, I say, well, what do you do instead? You don't go to priest, you don't go to therapist. What is it you do? You know? He looks at me and says, I look at mirror. I said, oh, what do you mean? He says, well, truth is we have hard time seeing ourselves. So my job is to look in mirror until I can look myself in eye and say I love you, you, and not look away scared. And when I can do that, the work is done. And I go on about my day and honestly, when I heard that, I was so blown away. So I tried it on the, the Delta flight back from Europe and I'm in that tiny little bathroom and I'm, you know, I'm a big guy and I'm sandwiched up against the mirror and like, I love you. And you know, he's not wrong. You, you look, if you look Yourself in the eye. It's. It's very difficult to see something you like. You see all of your flaws. You see all of your. Your traumas. You see all of your inadequacies, your insufficient childhood. You don't love yourself. But if you can hold your gaze and say, I love you, and you hold it there, the most amazing things begin to happen. You transform in front of your own eyes. Yeah. And this has been a really special thing to incorporate in my life. So I'm a little less bullshit, apparently.

So everyone's gonna go find a mirror right now and say I love you to themselves until they cannot look away or laugh or, you know, make a joke of it. I think that's a really powerful practice. I know I'm gonna do that after this conversation. So thank you so much for. I could talk to you for hours. I'm like, I just wanna live in this realm of love and poetry and philosophy and grief and, like, just be Socrates and Plato. Like, can we just bring that back? So thank you so much for living, reading from your heart and, you know, reminding us that, yeah, like, life can be so. So calculated, you know? And I think that that's what love allows us to do. Like something that makes no sense. And that's why we're, like, so enamored and hungry and fascinated and scared of it all.

That, as Hemingway said, the reason why we need heroes is because they're so hard to find.

Yeah.

And that's why we need love. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much. And we'll link your book below so people can get that. And there's so many amazing stories in it. You write so beautifully, so I highly recommend it. So please share this episode. You know, sometimes I feel like it's awkward to talk about love. Like, we're like, I don't want to come off as needy or something, especially when you're single. And I found, like, the more I share about love, the more I'm going to be a vibrational match for all the other lovers out there. And if they're not into love, love, we're not going to be a fit. So. So share your desire, your interest about love. Share this episode. Live with your heart more openly. Take some of these practices into your life. Because if there's anything we need, it's a more loving world. And if you love this episode, please leave a review for it in the itunes store and I will send you a free gift of my womb meditation, which is a meditation that allows you to connect your divine feminine source of wisdom. So all you got to do do is leave a review on the iTunes store, take a screenshot and send it over to me@saharaamsahararose.com you can find that email and all the links mentioned in the show. Notes. Thank you so much for tuning in and I'll see you in the next one. Trust your intuition, trust your inner wisdom, Trust your inner guidance. So trust your intuition, trust you in the wisdom. Trust you in the guidance.