554: How To Move Through Sticky Situations With Friends + Handle Friendship Break-Ups with Danielle Bayard Jackson

Because we fear rejection so much, we get one little pushback or one little piece of tension, we're like, oh, this is not what I thought. I'm out of here. And it's just like, I don't know, like having no resilience in our friendships. And so it's okay to negotiate, it's okay to talk, it's okay to co create, okay, what feels good for us. Let's just stick with in person, catch up to you and I, because the voice mode thing ain't working, girl, you know, so. But we're negotiating what feels good here, what feels for us. And I'm doing that in all of my friendships, giving them room to co create their individual relationships. But I think some of us are literally so immobilized by a fear of rejection that we're not expressing what we want in friendships that we sense a little tension, a little pension, then we're out of here. Because it feels awkward to lean into it. And I just think it's keeping a lot of us lonely and isolated, to be honest.

Welcome back to the Highest Self podcast. My name is Sahar Rose and on this podcast I love to take spiritual concepts and make them really grounded and accessible and relatable. Because for me, the spiritual journey has been about connecting to my heart, connecting to my friendships, connecting to love, connecting to my humanity. And friendships, for me have honestly been my life's greatest gift and also like area of interest. And I think sometimes when we're gifted in something, we don't, we don't actually try. But I have always been someone that had a lot of friends but really has valued friendship. Like I read books about friendship, I think about friendship, to me it's like just as important as romantic partnership. So flash backwards. Three years ago or so I was on TikTok and I saw someone who was a literal friendship coach. Like she has dedicated her entire career to friendship. And I was like, who is this person? And she was just speaking such truth, like every single post. I was saving it, saving it, saving it. And just such nuance to really specific topics that I feel like we have a lot of books around love, but there just aren't so many about friendship. I mean, barely any, right? It's like here and there articles. And so for someone like me who's been hungry for it, I just became obsessed with her content. I had her on the podcast about three years ago and now since then we have developed our own friendship, our own little girl romance. And she's. She sent me flowers for my album launch. I was like, girl, you're the only one who's ever done that. Like, thank you. It was so sweet. Like, this girl is walking her talk. But she just wrote this new book that is coming out right now called Fighting for Our Friendships. And what I love about this angle that she took is about how we talk a lot about making friends. You know, did you guys ever have that American Girl book? Like, the Care and Keeping of Friends? I remember I had that when I was a kid. But we don't talk about why. Often friendships fade away. And I feel like friendship breakups are so hard. Like, no one prepares you for it. And again, romantic breakups, you know what to do. People support you like you've gone through it before. But friendship breakups is like going into the unknown. And I do feel a lot of friendship breakups happen unnecessarily. Like, you could have leaned in and had this conversation that actually would have made your friendship stronger. But I feel that so many of us, we don't know how or we think, well, they should just know what I want in a friend. And if they're not, well, I'm just gonna go on to the next one. And the true friendships that see us are the ones that see us across all seasons. And to see us across all seasons is gonna require sometimes saying the hard thing and going through that. So I brought her on here on this podcast to talk about, like, specifics that I feel so many of us, whether you have long term friendships or maybe you don't, and maybe there's just some fallouts that continually happen, how we can actually resolve them so we can be seen and celebrated and heard and have fun in our friendships without any weird undercurrent energy, which ends up being the thing that fizzles the friendship out. And before we drop into this episode, be sure to hit subscribe wherever you're listening to this podcast. That is the best way to stay up to date on the latest episodes. We've got this in video format, so if you're just hearing my voice, be sure to also watch our fabulous outfits on video as well on Spotify, YouTube or the Apple Store. This is the best way to stay in the flow with future conversations and also allows the podcast to reach more people. So hit subscribe so I can keep vibing with you on all future episodes. Now let's get into this one. So without further ado, let's welcome Danielle to the Highest Self podcast. Welcome back. Hello.

How's it going?

You're amazing at what you do, period.

I'm so glad to be back and talking to you for, like, part two.

I know, because last time we hung out, we just ended up going into a vortex, talking for, like, eight hours. We're like, blah, blah, blah, blah. So let's see where this takes us. But the first question I'd love to ask you is, what makes you your highest self?

Ooh. I feel like it's community, because I know that there's a lot of inner work that needs to be done, but I believe that you also grow and heal in community. So I think it's the people around me who help me to be my highest self.

So I love in your book, it's like, the obvious would be, like, how to make friends, but you took the stance of how to maintain friendships, and I feel like that is so needed. So can you share with us some. What are some of the common ways that friendships fizzle out?

Yeah. So, you know, the. The. The main way that sometimes our friendships end is through the fizzle, where there's not that formal conversation. But you both sense that you initiate a little less. You are prompting her with questions about her life a little less, and it fades out. And less often, we have to have a formal conversation around what's happening. But a couple reasons for why we actually fizzle. The first is just different values. And I think intellectually, we know that, like, oh, yeah, different values will change, but when it actually happens, that's really hard because you have built your life with the understanding that this person's probably going to be in your life forever. You don't consider that it might be over the way you might when you enter into a romantic relationship, and, you know, there's a chance. So differing values, so sometimes differing context. So she moves or has a baby, and you don't know how to relate to one another anymore. In this new season, so it's a variety of things that happen, but I think the trick is figuring out if it's worth saving and if you want to try to do that.

You know, it reminds me of my college best friend, and, you know, we were like sisters. We were. It was like kind of those friendships where you're each other's only friend, you know, and you're like. So, like you're in a relationship pretty much. And then she got a boyfriend, so that kind of shifted things, and it was more about him. And then I kind of felt left out, and then I started traveling more, and then I moved, and it was just like, things like this and nothing ever really happened. And Then over time, I kind of felt like I'm always the one that's reaching out to her. And so I was like, I wonder if I just never reach out to her, if she would ever reach out to me. And she never did. And not that anything was wrong. It's just she's busy with her life. You know, we still talk sometimes, and, like, if I know if I ever would need something, she's there, but it's just took a different stance. And, like, sometimes I think I'm like, you know, we just live totally separate, separate lives. She's, like, not really even into spirituality, lives somewhere else, has a baby. But, like, yeah, I kind of wonder maybe if we had that harder conversation earlier on, it could have been different.

Yeah. And it's scary. I mean, like, you know, who wants to face rejection? And especially that whole, like, as soon as you sense there's a lack of reciprocity, it feels a little embarrassing because you're like, okay, am I more invested than she is? And then you're trying to, like, reconcile with, like, how she prioritizes you. But if you find yourself desiring more from a friend, it's actually okay to say so. I just think we have fewer models of what that looks like and convince ourselves that that's desperate and clingy. Because, as I often hear people say, friendship should be so. It should be natural.

Okay, let's talk about this. Cause I feel like this is, like, you hear this debate kind. Not a debate, but, like, you hear people saying, she wanted so much of me in the friendship, and I couldn't do that. Like, I'm the kind of friend, and we see memes about it of, like, you're best friend and you haven't talked all month, but then you send each other memes, and then every time you feel each other in. There's, like, 12 new characters, et cetera, for me. And, like, the closeness I have in my friendship. That's not how I would want my best friend relationship to be. Like, if my best friend Rosie didn't talk to me for one month, I would be like, are you a lot? Like, I would just show up at her house. I would just not let her, you know? But I. But both of us are like that. So we, like, meet each other. Whereas it is that fear of, like, what if I'm like that and someone else isn't? So it's. I think we're also afraid of being that friend that's getting talked shit about. Of, like, she wanted more for me.

And I couldn't yeah, Again, no one wants to be perceived as being clingy or honestly, I feel like at the heart of that is the fear that your love is too great. The fear that if I express, like, hey, I'd love to see you more, that this person's gonna tell me I'm too much. And I wonder if that's maybe like the underlying reluctance of that. But again, we have to give ourselves permission to express platonic desire. And sometimes, like, you might love somebody well enough or like them well enough, but sometimes you have to ask yourself, is our friendship style compell? Like, maybe I do, you know, prioritize active friendships at this point in my life. I want to spend time with you. I want to have shared experiences. And maybe for me, in this season, it's not really enough to do those, you know, every 30 day memes. And so it's not a right or wrong. But if you find yourself unable to be content with what it is now, and therefore growing resentment with her because of it, you either need to talk about it and find a way to tell her you. You miss her and want to invite her into your life more, or you say, okay, you know what? I'm going to put my head on a swivel. I'm going to pay more int to the people who reciprocate in the ways that I want and try to develop something with them.

Okay, so let's say you make a friend and you really like them. You guys are vibing and you see each other. However, so often you would like to progress the friendship, get closer to them. Should you tell them that? Or should you just start messaging them and initiating first and see if they reciprocate?

Yeah. So it's. Everybody's different. Because I know sometimes people are like, I don't want to say, hey, I'd love to get to know you better.

Right.

So I'm putting you on the calendar. Let's do it. You know, so I think that there are ways to do it.

I'd like to take this for a second.

Yeah, check yes or no. You know, like, tone it down. But there are ways to communicate with our subtext, like, hey, I'm interested in getting to know you better. And for the average person, how flattering to know you think I'm interesting and want to spend more time together. So, you know, there's research that finds that it takes 34 hours to move somebody from an acquaintance to a friend. So at some point, once you realize, okay, I'm curious about her, she seems cool. We're gonna have to clock some hours together. And so this can be little things.

Like 34 hours of time together.

Correct.

Wow. It's a long time.

That is a long time. And the research suggests that that unfold over, like, five months. So no one's saying we've got to expedite the process this month. Over the span of five months, we're getting to know each other, spending time together, developing trust. Right. Because there's only so much you can download me on. In our first conversation, which I know, like, fast friends are a thing, like, oh, my God, we just chatted all night. But in reality, like, I don't know you like that yet. Like, you haven't demonstrated your character to me, shown me times you can have my back. And so it takes time. So I think there are little things you can do to different demonstrate. I'm willing to be intentional about you, and I'm interested in you. So a couple. I'd give you three things. The first would be recalling things that she told you in conversation and then, like, sending that to her, being a resource. So if you told me you're interested in plants and, like, this is a new thing that you're into, maybe like, a week later, I send you a link to a podcast about plants or a book or something, and I'm like, oh, I know. You mentioned this last time. Like, I thought you'd like this. That right there, you're demonstrating. One, I'm attentive. Two, you're previewing the experience of being friends. Like, you're letting her see what it feels like. And three, you're showing her, I desire to know you. Like, you matter to me. So I think it's subtle things that we can do to show somebody, like, oh, she wants to be friends. And there's something called the liking gap, which shows that we tend to underestimate how much people like us. So there's a chance that it feels risky to put yourself out there, but there's a good chance that she feels the same way. Yeah.

Like, I remember after we did the first podcast, which was just on zoom, but you wrote something along the lines of, like, hey, I would really love to hang out with you when I'm in the area. And I was like, oh, my God, a friendship coach wants to hang out with me. Like, oh, please. And I love that. You know, I was never like, who would have. You know, that's so kind to receive, you know? Whereas if you were like, hey, maybe we should take this up a notch. It's like, yeah, that's like more maybe like the bachelor language, you know, so that wouldn't work. But I think most of us want to feel acknowledged, but we're. And I think that sometimes the, the clinginess comes when. Why didn't you respond? Why didn't you this? And so it's about pointing out what that person didn't do as opposed to sharing what we would like more of.

Oh my God, that's so true. And I've definitely been on the other end of that before where a person's like, oh, I haven't heard from you. This is nice.

The passive aggressive.

Yeah. It's like, do you. Why would I respond to that?

Now you know how their parents talk to them.

That possible? I need you to get that together, work that out, you know, because friendship is a completely elective relationship. We don't have to be here. So at any point where you start to like, this person's treating me like they're entitled to my time or I feel like I'm gonna get in trouble, those feelings aren't even really congruent with a platonic connection. And so, yeah, you're gonna increase the likelihood that a person kind of, you know, phase you out. Cause it doesn't feel good.

Yeah. So you have these friendship like archetypes of like, common, common, maybe issues in friendships. Can you share what some of these archetypes are?

Yeah. So I always say that, you know, we see this a lot online. Like the types of friends, like, that gets so many clicks. Right. If I do a video on like three types of friends, it's. It's gonna do well. But what we decided to do in the book was to figure out what are some of the nine most common problems that tend to emerge specifically among women and put them into like friend types. And the truth is, you might be one of these types to somebody.

I just wanted myself. Did you. I'll call it out. Call it when we get there.

So some of them include the negative friend. Some of them include the.

Okay, tell us, what's the negative friend?

So the person who you find yourself being depleted every time you're together. And this could take the form of her chronic complaining. It could take the form of critic. Like anything you say, she's got something to say, she's got an opinion, and it feels like such a downer or kind of low self esteem on her own. So sometimes we want to build her up, but we're exhausted from trying to build her. So either way, detracting from the joy that you have in your friendship.

Definitely. I've been there. And having friends like that, and I just like walk away every time just feeling like trauma dumped on and low. And again, sometimes you're in a phase of life. And that's why when me, after my divorce, I was. I. I don't ever want to be that friend. So I almost like, felt bad even being vulnerable. Cause I never want to be that friend. I had to learn. It's like that negative Nancy friend or no, hate to Nancy. I know we're not supposed to use that politically correct here. The negative friend. There's a difference of going through a chapter versus, like, perpetually negative. You give them advice and they're just like shooting it down. And it's just like, so what do you really want?

Yeah.

And they probably just go through life like that.

Yeah. Which is really hard. It's hard to befriend someone who's determined to not have joy. It's just really hard. And you know, and I love that you just said like. Because sometimes we so fear being the negative friend, we share none of the hardship because I don't want to bring you down. And I totally get that. And I can sympathize with that. And it feels noble on the surface, but it removes one of the benefits that friendship's supposed to afford you is somebody to take your troubles to. And I just think it's a matter of monitoring it. And there is research from the Gottmans that finds that the most successful relationships have a positivity to negativity ratio of 5 to 1 because of how heavily negative interactions weigh on us. So essentially, if you guys have one negative interaction, you would kind of need like five positive exchanges to outweigh that. So I just say, like, if you took an aerial view of your friendship and looked down at the last 10 interactions, exactly how many were the venting, complaining, you know, something to think about.

That's huge. Because I would say most friendships don't pass that test. Because what I see most females use friendships for is therapy, you know, so it's like, I'm going to vent to you, you're going to listen, and then we're going to trade places. Like there's some other me and my saw. It's like friendship is really taking turns being crazy. It's like, okay, I'm going to be off the ledge right now. You're going to help me. Then you're going to be off ledge and something else that I'm okay about. And you know, and it's like that happens and that is also what friendships are for. But then sometimes, especially I feel with long distance friendships is you don't make the positive new memories, you're just constantly updating typically on the grievances rather than, I don't know, like going to the beach one day or getting your nails done together. And these positive interactions that aren't so needing to hold space for each other. So it's a good reminder for those of us who, you know, I feel those of us who are really deep, we tend to have very deep friendships. But then sometimes we just need and certain friendships too. Like I have some friends that are like very light. Like our friendship is like going to carnival and like being really sparkly and like other friendships where it's just very like deep. And I feel like each friendship also finds their own tone.

Yeah, I totally agree with that. I just think that to your point, if we find that we have created a habit or an ecosystem of life updates that are negative, somebody does have to take a time out and say, you know what, beach day. We're not even talking about our troubles today. I just want to enjoy you. Okay? You know, like it can be playful, but sucking us out of that perpetual co rumination which is not healthy, you know, so some of us have the negative friend, others of us might have have the love obsessed friend.

Okay, that was fine.

Talk to me.

So when I was reading your book and I saw the love obsessed friend, I immediately sent a voice note to my best friend Rosie. I was like, I'm sorry, don't leave me. I'm the obsessed friend. And you know what? I was never the love obsessed friend when I was married. Sure, I didn't give a shit. I was like, I'm good living my life. I was like more work obsessed. I would say, like we would just talk more about that. But then being I think every single friend is love obsessed most because when you're single it's like dating and potential romance is such a big deal in your mind and it's like all you think about. And then also it's this thing about being single that I feel like I am like the entertainment for my friends. Like, you know, let's be real. It is, it is. And so because they ask me, they're like, oh, what happened with so and so? Or what's the update there? So I feel like I owe it to the squad, you know. But then it's like, oh my God. I mean I used to do this last year. I don't do this anymore. But like, so and so watched my story. And then I realized I'm like, I don't think Rosie cares if this person watched my stories. She doesn't need a screenshot every time, you know? And so I. So I started even like last year being like, hey, if you don't want to hear this. And she was like, you know what it's like. Cause she's in like a 21 year relationship. So she's like, it's entertaining.

Give me something juicy for me.

But I'm like, at any point, if it's just getting like, I don't bring as much of it that I used to when I first became single that I do now, because, I mean, I guess if I've ever had a love obsessed friend, I was also really into it just because I'm really into, like, love. Like, that's fun for me. But I do think it gets annoying when you keep giving the same advice to that person and they don't listen. They keep getting back to her with the ex and that kind of thing. So I take ownership of my part. But I am entertaining. So we'll give you that.

A little flavor, you know, like these interesting updates. I'm sure they appreciate that in their lives. I think for most women, that becomes irritating to them. And again, I've. I've been in that place. I think it becomes a strain to the friendship when it's things like canceling plans last minute a lot of times because you had a better offer or, you know, getting to the point where you never ask about her because your latest romantic development is dominating the conversation, using doing things that make her feel in any way, that she's just the placeholder. But if you get a better offer. So I think it's things like that that strain the friendship and not girls.

Who, like, ditch you to hang out with a guy. It's a hard one.

That's so hard.

Hard. No.

Yeah. Like, I try to be sympathetic. Okay, I get it.

But also, maybe it's like one thing, but it's like, why is this guy changing up plans with you? I'm not. And we're coming to his schedule right now, by the way. He's probably not gonna be in the picture next month.

Right? Exactly. Exactly. So get out your system.

Yeah. You know, and that's the thing. Most friendships outlive, most relationships.

Correct, Correct. So that's another one that's been kind of tricky. There's also, you know, the jealous friend. And it's so funny because even if you Google female friendship, it populates with jealousy. And so it's just a prevalent thing of sensing, okay, is she envious right now or not? And then it feels kind of cringey to say it because it makes you look like you're feeling yourself. Like, I think she's jealous. Like, nobody wants to be that girl. But sometimes you're like, okay, I don't think I'm crazy. I'm sensing that she's reluctant to celebrate me. She doesn't want to hear like any positives and it feels really uncomfortable. So that's one that women struggle with as well in a friendship and definitely threatens the trajectory of that relationship Are.

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Yeah.

And then I got into a relationship and she was very possessive over me and, like, felt abandoned because we were also kind of like, very, very close friends. And being in a relationship does really shift things.

Yeah.

And then I just. The friendship wasn't serving me for all these different ways, and I kind of was, like, stepping away, stepping away. And then she actually wrote me a note being like, I know the reason you stepped away is because I'm really jealous of you.

Wow.

She actually shared that. And it was like, I kind of subconsciously realized it, but I didn't totally realize it. And then she said that, and then it kind of all made sense where those actions were coming from.

Yeah. And you know what? I actually love that she was able to get to a point to say, that's a me problem, which so often we don't hear.

Me not want to resume. Like, getting that letter didn't make me be like, oh, yeah, you were just super jealous of me the whole time. Let's be friends now. I felt, like, a little bit more unsafe to a hundred percent.

I was just gonna use that word because it's a safety thing. You'd like to think you can kind of relax into who you are with friends, but as soon as you begin to feel a certain pressure to measure your words and to filter out what to share and whatnot, it can be mentally exhausting. And again, feel unsafe that I'm going to expose myself or make myself vulnerable to her if she learns this information. And that's really difficult. So there are those different archetypes and there are others. But the reason we put that in the book is because sometimes when we have an issue with our friend, we reduce her to the problem she presents, you know, so you are not a full human to me. If it's this one thing, then I start to see everywhere it grows. I'm really into like my side and experience of this. I probably haven't paused to be like, okay, wait a second, she might be going through this to have some compassion. And before we know it, the friendship ends because we slowly, gradually, I know I've done it slowly, gradually pull away. But is it something that could have been corrected if we had the courage to say, okay, you know what's going on? Which is something we often just don't do.

So let's talk about it because you give a lot of like, tips on how to have these hard conversations. So what's a common scenario that you see and what's the sort of conversation we can have around that?

One would probably be feeling like there's a friend who's the clingy friend. Like she demands too much like we talked about earlier and wanting space but not wanting to hurt her feelings. And that's a tough one. Yeah, that's a tough one. And so it's on the surface we're reluctant to have that conversation because we don't want to hurt her feelings, which is a noble cause. But it becomes something known as ruinous empathy. If I never bring up my issues because I don't want to hurt you. But now it's at the point of me self sacrificing because I'm so highly attuned to your feelings. And that's not necessarily a good thing. Especially people pleasers do that. I'm so attuned to how you feel that I don't make any space for my preferences, needs or desires. So if you're in that situation, for example, where you're like, okay, this friend is wanting more than I can give, you want to be careful to not highlight her inadequacies, but instead highlight what it is you want to move toward. So I might say something like, hey, I know that you know you like to connect throughout the day, but for me, I really work back doing like a catch up call on the weekends. So what do you want to do Saturdays or Sundays? My subtext is I'm not going to answer multiple texts throughout the day because it's overwhelming. But I'm also not going to word that as like, you text too much or you're doing too much for me because it leaves people with complexes. So we're trying to be gentle and focus on the impact of their behavior. Hey, I know you Text throughout the day, but I really prefer weekends. Which day is good for you? Saturday or Sunday? And then I'd have to follow through with that on my behavior. And if she's texting me 10 times a day, I'm not answering each one because that's sending mixed signals. So I know that that's really awkward. And some women are like, there's no way I'm gonna do that, because that's so freaking tense. But you have to remind yourself the right people want that data. Like, I would want to know if a friend thought, man, Danielle's a little much. I would want to know that. Right? So we just have to. A lot of us reframe our attitude toward conflict itself.

And here's the funny thing is, you don't want to tell the clingy friend. Cause you're afraid of hurting her feelings.

So instead of.

You just pull away, which just makes her get more clingy, which is probably her lifelong pattern that has happened, which has caused this clingy thing of, like, people keep pulling away and they're not understanding why. So the moment they are, let me, like, ask them more. Because no one's actually given her that feedback.

Right?

And so it's sad because we throw out the baby with the bathwater of, like, that could be an amazing friend in so many different ways. And because of her probably, like, anxious attachment style and friendship, she's just like, do you still love me? Do you still love love me? So it's either I love how you said Saturday or Sunday, because it's not saying, oh, yeah, let's talk on the weekends in this vague way. It's actually saying, and I actually really want to do this with you. Is it Saturday or Sunday? So I'm just like, oh, okay, exhale. She actually does want to talk to me. And then I never have to be in this, like, questioning in my head that I think a lot of us women have been in. Am I being too much?

Right. Which. Which is really hard. I know. Kind of recently I had a friend in my life, and we had to have a tough conversation. And I almost didn't have it because I had convinced myself, there's no point. This is not a changeable thing. And it was. It had to do with gossip. Okay. And I'm not above getting some good tea. Okay. Like, tell me the tea. But also, like, every time we get together, we're, like, disparaging somebody else. Of course that's gonna make me uncomfortable. So she began to say to me, like, I just feel like, you don't open up the way you used to. This and that. Not making the connection. I just was like, oh, yeah, you know? But I was like, I don't want to be dishonest. Like, at some point I need to let her know this is bubbling up in me because of what you're doing. So we did the whole like, hey, do you have time to talk? It felt a little formal. And during that conversation, I just was like, you know, I. The last thing I want to do is offend you, but I've been thinking about this a lot to try to demonstrate I'm being thoughtful and gentle here. And sometimes when you share with me things that your other friends have going on, it just makes me wonder, like, if my stuff's being shared. And I think that's making me, you know, withdraw a little bit. And she surprised me by saying, wow, I could totally see how you would see that. And then she was like, I guess I share with you because I think you're a bolt, so I know it's not going anywhere. And I was like, right, But I don't know if you're sharing my stuff. And she was like, you know what? I will stop doing that. And that was that. And I almost kind of pulled away because I thought, there's no way this is going to work. And it was effective. I was, like, pleasantly surprised. So it's possible.

So, like. But do you honestly trust now that friendship sunsetted? It did. Okay.

It did.

And.

Which is really hard.

That's the thing. It's like, for sure, I've been in friendships that it starts with maybe gossiping about some random celebrity or this. Then it turns into more, and it becomes a tone of the friendship. And then you have the thought of. And the thing is, they probably are. Yeah, they probably are.

Yeah. Which was really hard.

It's hard to believe you're the only friend they ever gossip with.

I know. And I. And I wanted to believe her. And it ended because of, you know, other things. But I was glad to see that there was a change, because I did notice when we'd get together, I was getting fewer updates around so and so's marriage or so and so's business. It was happening fewer, you know, but trust is a big thing, and self disclosure is such a thing in women's friendships. So as soon as you feel like that might be going outside of the vault, I think it would make anybody kind of pull away.

It's really hard because, like, in my friendships, I'm such an open book. I Share everything. And I'm not the kind that's like, okay, don't tell anyone this right now. I'm just assuming I'm telling you. And I had a situation that happened that I was sharing some personal, like, grievances with a friend, and she ended up sharing it with someone else who reached out to me. Cause she wanted to interview me on her podcast about this thing that I don't even really know this person at all. So it was like, why are you telling it to this, like, podcast host who want. And it was like, it felt like such a breach of my privacy. And I brought it up to that friend, and she took ownership and she apologized. But she said, well, I just saw you were so open with your story, so I thought it was just an open thing to. To talk about. And I'm like, I'm open with my story. Doesn't mean you can be open with my story. And it was, I guess this lesson of, like, anything you do share with anyone can get out. So if it's genuinely something you don't want anyone to know, it's like, just freaking write in your journal. That's the truth, you know? And I was like, wow, I guess I need to maybe be a little bit more clear. Like, I'm sharing this with you. Don't. Maybe some people. People need that for me. I assume whatever you tell me, I'm not telling someone else. Some people maybe need that. Like, oh, no, this. This right here is the confidential information.

Yeah. So you bring up a good point. Because there is such a. An assumption that your friends are gonna subscribe to the same ideas of what you think is normal. Which, again, I mean, I can. I can't tell you how many times women have said to me, like, danielle, come on. That should be obvious. That should be so. And I feel that way about a lot of things. I'm like, I should not have to explain that. You would be surprised. And so for myself personally, I have started saying, you know, before I tell something that I wouldn't want to get out. You know, oh, and this happened the other day. And. Wait, hold on. This. And I'm just telling you this because I have not told anybody else this, but which kind of is tricky because that friend could take offense. Like, well, obviously, why do you feel the need to say that? So that can go sideways. But it just makes it very clear to everybody in the room. This item I'm about to share with you is a vault thing.

Yes.

You know, but it's tricky. It's tricky. And you know, there are some signs that we can observe to let us know that this person is safe. You know, I have one friend who she never tells me the names of the people she's talking about. So she'll say, like, oh, my gosh, the other day, one of my friends, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Like, I can watch her be intentional about. I'm gonna keep this confidential because my friend trusts me. That's one of the people I feel the most safe with because I've seen her do it with other people. And so it's a combination of. What evidence has this person given you over the course of your friendship that it's a safe space? And if there are ever moments of ambiguity, it's okay to be really clear. I'd rather you do that than have, you know, some messiness.

Yeah. And, like, there's a lot of, like, information about gossip and how it was, like, this evolutionary survival tool of, like, the woman would gather and be, like, weaving their baskets and gathering the berries and be like, oh, did you hear? So and so? And it was a safety thing of, like, this person's not safe. This is what's happening in that hut. A war might be happening. It was how women shared information. So there is something that is really innate to women of talking about the business of other people, but it's more for the lessons of it. So I like how that friend is still. And then sometimes someone tells you something really heavy that you kind of, like, feel it's so much for you to carry on your own. And so what I think is a better way is, like, you can share the lesson of that thing without sharing the name of the person. Love that. But the thing is, some people get nosy, and then they're like, who are you talking about?

Who?

Okay, you're my best friend. You need to tell me. You need to tell me. And then it's like. And the thing is, most people don't just have one best friend. You have multiple, because your best friend is a tear, as we know. So. And that's where it gets. It gets tricky, but it's. It's hard because I do understand, like, you know, with my friends, we definitely talk about, like, celebrity things and things because we like to break down, like, oh, what's really happening with Justin and Haley Bieber? You know, sometimes we talk about these things. TikTok brought me there. I didn't choose it, but. But the sad truth, I realized is, like, I'm probably that lesson for someone, like, people. Two girls are probably sitting around like, oh, well, look at what happened with Sahara. Or look at what happened with that. And then I was also had to become okay with that too.

Yeah.

Of like. And it's not the end of the world if people gossip about you. But it's hard because we. It. It brings up this massive unsafety thing of like, what's happening to my reputation? Because if my reputation is not there, then I am not safe. So 100%. It's like all this evolutionary stuff.

Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And I always like to say there's a sociolinguist. Her name is Deborah Tannen. And she always says, ask yourself the question, am I talking about or am I talking against? Because that is why we're so like, we have the sixth sense and all these things. We exchange information. That's just what we do. And we're often the social hubs of our family of what's going on. But this is how I get access to resources. This is how I know what the norms are in our neighborhood or in this culture is talking and hearing from other people. People. This is how I know who's a foe and who's an ally. To hear people say, like, oh, she did this, you know, be careful. It might feel like gossip, but it also trains me, oh, gosh, I might not want to do business with her. I didn't realize that she does these shady things, you know. And so, you know, I. I just think that nuance is important because you so often hear people say, like, well, we just need to be not talking about people. And I just don't know how realistic that is. It's just knowing that differentiation.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, I was in a situation. Why once, you know, it was a girls trip. And oftentimes girls trips, when you're not all equal amount friends, conflict can happen, you know, because first of all, it's very hard to find a female friendship that everyone's equal amount. That's impossible, you know, but this trip, it was me and two other girls. It was all of our birthdays in January, so we all invited friends that all kind of knew each other, but some were closer than others.

Okay.

And there were two girls specifically that have never really gotten along. They're either like very close or it's like. Or enemies. And they're actually quite similar. So anyways, a conflict happened between the two of them, and it was like, they were kind of like loud and it was like a thing in the car. And so when one of the girls left, the other girl was crying and she wanted to Talk about how she felt. But one of the girls whose birthday was also. She was just like, no, we can't talk about her at all, and put her headphones on, was just very, like, adamant of like, we will not talk about her when she's not there. And I really respected that because I was like, wow, that does make me feel really safe with her because I know she will not talk about someone that's not there. However, the girl who was crying was like, I felt really silenced. In my experience. It was like, I just wanted to talk about how I felt. And it felt very just like, no, we can't talk about it. Yeah. So how can we talk about maybe friendship issues with another friend? To a mutual friend?

The first is you have to be really honest with yourself around your objectives. If you were being super honest is the point of you sharing with the third party because you want her to look a little bad if you're being honest with yourself, because that should give you the answer right there. If it's wise to move forward, the next thing is, what's the relationship that this person has with that other person? Because if you are kind of sharing something negative, a negative experience with a friend to a friend who, you know, doesn't like her, can you really trust that she is in a position to help you reconcile that she's going to motivate you to be like, Danielle, you know, I see both sides, you know? Or she can be like, I told you. I told you that heifer is shady. Like, you know what I'm saying? That's not helpful. So I'm being wise about and honest about. What is your objective? What's the point? And are you trying to disparage this person, or are you really trying to, like, process and work through so that you have a better vantage point in perspective when you do return to her, you know? So I think it starts with being honest with yourself.

Yeah. And I felt bad for this friend of mine who was upset because I can only imagine what it feels like to have a conflict and someone was kind of yelling at you and you're upset. So I kind of was like the friend who was soothing her because no one else was. But then at the same time, it did make me now get involved in the situation. And then the other girl felt like I was taking her side and, you know, and it kind of turned into a big thing. Now it's all good, of course, but definitely ruined that trip. You know, Now I'm just like, dude, like, girls trips, like, they're really Hard to pull off.

That's a whole thing. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah. Like any tips, you know when to get better girls trips where there's not like an underlying tension or something that comes up 100%.

Okay, so the first is consider who's going. Because if they don't get to get, like, if they don't get along for two hour brunch, what on earth makes.

You think gonna stay in a hotel?

Yeah, what makes you think think that? The second thing is it is okay to talk up front about money. I know some people feel differently about that, but what are we doing about hotel or surprise costs?

Excursion about money.

I, I'm not surprised to hear that. Always I'm not surprised to hear that. And I've seen there's this recent Tick Tock video I watched and this girl was in her car and she was venting about like, I can't believe my friend doesn't know to pay me back immediately. But I'm like, does she think that when you guys go back then you're paying or does she think that she covered something last week? So it's under, I mean, so you've got to. The, the tough part about friendship is unlike other relationships, there's a lot of ambiguity. But what makes it worse is we operate under the assumption that it should be obvious, it should be natural and organic because we're friends. You put that together and it makes for a lot of misunderstandings. So it's okay up front to talk about money. And one of the ways I think it, it makes it fun to do this before a trip to is you can have a planning party so you can say like, okay, come over, we're going to have, you know, some wine and we're going to talk about all the things let's plan for our trip. Like it's a fun thing. And during that conversation, we're going to talk about lodging, who's staying with who, money, what this trip looks like. Again, another thing you think is so obvious, but I might be in my brain, I'm thinking, oh, I can't wait to relax with the girls by the pool. And the rest of y' all are thinking from 7am to 11pm how can we stack this day with all the things to do around town? So do we have a good understanding of like, wait, what would make this trip fun for you? Because that would not be fun to me. And then finally I would say if there's anything that you're nervous about to say that up front. And so, you know, one way to do that is to say, oh, you know, I'm so excited for the trip. I will say I'm a little nervous that once we get there, everybody's gonna split up and do their own thing. So what are we doing here? You know, it's playful, but I'm also throwing it out there instead of it being something that's a fear that I'm sitting on and I'm just praying nothing happens. So it's okay to start by saying I'm so excited about the trip, but one thing I'm a little nervous about is xyz. What are we going to do about that? To make sure we're all on the same page. So those are just some things that don't give you a guarantee, but they increase the chances that you have a smooth trip where everybody's on the same page.

I love that because I don't think we ever talk about what we're nervous about. We always are like, oh, my God, this is going to be the best trip I ever. And we hype it up and we're so excited in the group text. And then, like, sometimes the trip happens and a situation happens and then like the group text never, never is texted again. And. And it is. It is sad. And so, yeah, a few things I learned is I don't really do the Airbnbs with the groups of friends anymore. I always feel like there's something around the cleaning of the place, like people being messy and people having, like, different ideas of, like, cleanliness and roles and that sort of thing. Room arrangement is always a thing. I paid this much. I should get this oceanfront room. I don't want a room with that person. They like to turn the lights off and I needed the lights. They were on their FaceTime. And like always things with the, with the rooms. I have found things with, like, transportation a lot of times or like, if there's one key of like you were supposed to leave. If there's like a festival or something, there's always like, you were supposed to leave the key or I couldn't call transfer. I couldn't get in the house. Like all of these thing. So I've kind of learned just like, get my own hotel room, you know, do my own thing. So then it's like, I think everyone kind of needs their own place to, like, breathe, chill. Maybe like when there's a group of girls, the energy just gets so high and then you're like. And then it can just like turn into like a volcano that I realized I'm Friends. I also realized that drama often doesn't happen when partners are there.

Oh, interesting.

It's something about, like, having the man, the male energy, because I went on this big trip, but it was all of us with our partners at the time, and there was no drama at all. Because it's just like, I don't know, you're just. You're just not going to. Whereas the same. It was like the same girls, just girls. And then there was. And I was just like, what is it about maybe men just being a little bit of a stabilizing force? Or maybe you just bring your stuff to him? I don't know.

That's interesting. And I wonder if that is true, because if something's going down, you know that you have someone to debrief with after. And it's a totally safe container, and they probably won't amplify it because rarely are they. The guy's like, what she did? They're like, oh, man, that's crazy.

Exactly.

You know, you got it out and everybody's good. So that's really interesting.

And then, yeah, I think then a lot of the things around, like money and like, that kind of thing don't really happen as much, but the money is so, so big. Like in Persian culture, you invite people, and that's what a lot of, like, foreign cultures are. So, like, let's say you. You and I went to lunch and you're in la, which is my town. I must invite you. I must pay for. For it. It would be extremely rude if I let you pay for it, you know, whereas in American culture, it's not like that. It's just like, we're gonna. We're gonna split it, you know? So I remember I went through life like, oh, no, I must invite you. I must invite you. And then my American friends are like, okay, cool. Can I also get this some oysters? You know, that I learned you can't. You can't do that. You know, And I still love. Especially if people come to my house, I always, like, pay for the Uber eats and things like that. But then, I don't know, they're also. Is still. There needs to be reciprocity somewhere. Maybe it's not in money, but it's in reciprocity. In, like, I don't know, they teach you a yoga class or like a something. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I do. Yeah. I mean, and especially for women, the research shows that reciprocity is a really big deal. And again, to your point, people kind of gauge that differently And I know a friend and I went out to dinner, and, you know, she covered it. And then I venmoed her after, and she was genuinely upset. She was like, they're not doing tit for tat. I feel like that's super rude. This was my way of saying, like, I got it, and you'll get the next one. You know, I'm gonna see you again. So, to her, because we're so close, there should be a layer of security of, like, you know, I got you. You know what I'm saying? And so, yeah, everybody is different. But to your point, as long as there's some kind of evidence that you are contributing equally and, like, being intentional about pouring into this friendship, I feel like that's enough to help. Help us feel like, okay, I'm not in this by myself. She cares.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I remember when I was, like, you know, really going through my divorce, and I couldn't hold space for my best friend Rosie in the way that I normally could, and I had to just tell her that. I'm, like, right now, I can barely process my own thoughts, like, let alone yours. And I'm like, I'm so sorry. And it feels like I'm, like, taking up all of this. This time in this friendship. But then I made it a point to, like, I would just, like, constantly be buying her things. Things. I just, like, we're getting your nails done, like, by the. I would just send her money on Venmo sometimes because I was just like, this is just my friendship tax to you. And it was just like. And she'd be like, dude, stop. Like, this is retarded. Like, what are you doing? But it just, like, I just. And I. Because I have money, and she was, you know, giving me her time, and. And it's not like this. It just. I just felt like at this point, there's really nothing else I can give you right now but being able to, like, pay for things. And I do feel, even though she's like, you didn't need to do that, I do feel it did feel good for her as well that I'm acknowledging in this season. I'm taking up extra, like, emotional bandwidth for you.

And I'm sure the reason she appreciated that so much is because so often when we don't get reciprocity, the next question is, do you even care? I mean, that's the. That's the central question is, do you even care? So for you to be making. Making an effort to offer her something, to demonstrate I care is probably all she needed to satisfy that imbalance in.

That way and even to have the awareness.

Right?

Because a lot of people, they. They don't have the awareness and they just keep going and they keep going. So, yeah, I think the awareness and the acknowledgement is everything. Okay, can we talk about apologizing in friendships? How can we. Yeah, like, let's say. Let's say something happened. Like, what are some common situations that maybe need an apology?

Oh, there's lots of different things. You know, if you are persistently late and you're. And she's starting to get upset with it, or if she feels like you kind of her off. I mean, anytime where there's a perceived transgression, it's a good chance that there might be a need for an apology. And what's interesting is when we think about, like, enhancing connection in a friendship, we think of the fluffy stuff like venmo her for coffee or like, you know, tell your feelings, like, as opportunities for connection. We often overlook apologies as an opportunity for connection because if somebody is an injured party in a situation and the other person says, I am so sorry that I did that. I didn't even realize that would be hurtful to you immediately. I feel super connected to you because you demonstrated that you care about me and that my feelings matter to you. But I know for a lot of us, we withhold that apology because we see it as giving up power. And we're like, well, I'm not. Well, she shouldn't have. Da da da, da da. And, you know, I know things are situational, but I think we overlook that. At the end of the day, a good apology is an opportunity to show the injured party that you can care.

So on my single journey of traveling the world, the year after my divorce, I had this, like, subconscious, like, back of my mind thought of, like, maybe I'm going to meet the guy in Portugal. Maybe I'm going to meet him in London. Maybe I'm going to meet him there and kind of being let down. Like, you know when you, like, walk into a room and you're like, is he here? And he's not? And then you're like. And I noticed myself doing that. And I was like, you know what? Maybe this love story isn't about me meeting someone. And then I'm happily ever after with this new person. I'm out of the being single part of my life and in this better relationship, and now it's all worth it. But maybe this love story is really about me. So I started to tell this to myself. In my head, maybe this love story is really about me. Maybe this love story is really about me. And I wrote this poem that I turned into the song Love Story, which is the last song on my new album, My Body's an Altar. That really tells the story of what happened next after my divorce, of putting my things in storage, stepping into the unknown, facing my deepest shadows and my deepest fears, but knowing that I would rather be free in the abyss than caged in my conclusion. So this song is actually the most heartfelt felt to me on the album. And if you are going through a transition, whether it is a divorce or a breakup or a move or an identity shift, this song is for you. You're actually hearing it right now in the background. So be sure to check out my new album, My Body is an Altar. It is all about seeing yourself as a sacred site. It has this song, music you're gonna want to dance to. And while out to music you want to get sexy to and so much more. It's really the full spectrum of the goddess. And this music has streamed through me to be shared with the collective. And I'm so excited to see it make its way into your life. So you can head over to Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, SoundCloud, stream the album Sahara Rose. My Body's an Altar. This song specifically is called Love Story. You can find all of those links in the show notes. And I'm super excited to see your stories and reels sharing your love story. Yeah, totally. I think it's just that moment of, like, feeling seen by that person. And that's what friendships are. And I feel like oftentimes our friendships are the only places we feel seen, like, on a deep level, like, in the way that, like, women are, like. It's like our partners can be there for us, but, like, women can see women in such a deeper way. And that's why sometimes the hurts are so much deeper.

Oh, yeah. 100.

It's just like. Oh, like. Like you feel me and you were able to do that, and it can feel so intense. So, yeah, I do feel. I feel like sometimes we don't. People don't want to apologize because then it makes what happened real, so they kind of just like, pretend it didn't happen. Okay, what if you have a friend that they constantly interrupt you and that's just how they are. Is it worth bringing up or just decide if you want to be friends and how much you want to be friends with that person?

I think it's 100% worth bringing up again. Because of that perspective taking, if you were doing it and no one was telling you, how would you feel? Is one way to kind of help guide that. But I think it's totally worth bringing up. But again, I wouldn't highlight her inadequacy. I would highlight the impact. So let's say that I'm trying to tell her something and it's multiple times. Not just one, but like two, three, four. I might pause. And again, I'm a big fan of. Especially the first time, things can be playful. Like we're friends. Okay. So I feel like maybe the third time, I might pause and say, okay, and put my hand on her leg. Like, okay, I love that you're excited. You know, I love that about you. But girl, can I finish the sentence? You know, like, it's playful the first time. And again, the right people are like, okay, you're right. I'm working on that. Go ahead. You know, it's. And it's not a big deal, but it's when we start to conflate it with her character. So when we start to think like, God, she's so rude. That's so rude. Can I be friends with somebody who doesn't even care about what I'm trying to say? I think that's where it's dangerous. So I tend to amplify the behavior with the character and like, with your character. And then it becomes more difficult to reconcile because I've conflated it to be a really big thing when it could have been something really small that got kind of like nipped in the bud.

I love the way that you said that because that's like, really cute. It's playful and it's. Yeah. Cause sometimes when someone keeps interrupting you, what most people do is they just keep talking to be like, I'm going to finish this sentence. But maybe that person doesn't even realize that. Or maybe they feel that that's rude, that they're not able to get their word in. But it's. And then I wonder. I'm like, how could you not know that about yourself? But some people just might not.

And with interrupting. Because there's like a whole, like, there's so much research on, like, linguistics and, and how we interject or not. Sometimes it's based on gender. Because the research shows that women do offer what's called back channel communication more than men. So, like, I know, as a woman, I already know that if you're talking that I should be saying, mm, mm, Right, Right. Women do that more than men. But again, it's because we value egalitarianism. So that means like we value everybody being seen as equal. So I'm trying to show you I support you. I got you. I'm with you, I'm listening. Right. I care. So for women, we're trying to do little things, even in our language, to show I'm with you and I'm listening. And sometimes it's regional. So sometimes in certain cities or like a New York where people are talking fast and they're talking with each other, it's not seen as rude. But in a slower place paced area, maybe it feels like, whoa, calm down. And so again, I think the, the key takeaway there is that everything is negotiable in friendships. But we see something, we're like, oh, I guess this is how it is. I guess that's how she is. But there's room to push a little bit and co create the friendship that you guys want.

Totally. And I feel there's a difference between you're talking and I'm like, yes, yes, and like cheering you on versus like, and here's what I have to say. And I do feel like, for example, in coaching they say there are some times to interject. For example, if someone's kind of looping in a story or something like that, or they're going on a tangent, these are appropriate times to interject. So it's not like never, you know, if someone's just like going on a rant. But there are some times that I feel, yeah, as women we just get really excited, you know, and we're just like, and I want to say this and I want to say that, and then that person may have not, you know, and so people are just little slower processors. They need a little bit more time that the gold would have been like maybe another minute in if you just let them get there.

Yeah, totally. And again, we might be eager to try to show connection, like, oh my gosh, me too. Let me tell you, when that happened to me, we're the same. See, but to your point, like just, you need to just sense the vibe. Like let her, let her get it out and maybe tell her after. But yeah, it does feel like a dance sometimes. Sure.

So I want to talk about friendship breakups. When do they actually make sense and how can we go about them? Does it, should it be a conversation or a slow fade away? When. Which one?

Yeah, yeah. A lot of friendships end with the mutual fade out where nobody had to be the villain. You just both realize, well, I think I want to Invest less energy and it fades out. I think a formal conversation needs to happen whenever one person wants things to end and the other person expects that we're going to maintain the status quo as soon as there's a gap. Now, unfortunately, it might look like I'm leading her on if I'm kind of giving her one word answers or she begins to get confused, like, what's going on? But I refus used to tell her, or it introduces a temptation to be dishonest because maybe she senses it and she does say, like, oh, are we good? Oh, yeah, yeah. No, girl, we're good. Which is corrupted information because we're not good. And I don't want to be here, right? And so I think whenever there's that, that discrepancy, the dignified thing to do feels like to as warmly as possible let her know. And I know that feels super awkward, but we have to see that as an act of generosity for both parties because you don't want to be there. So you need to free yourself to be in spaces that energize you. And she deserves to be in the company of people who appreciate her. And so for both people, it might have that temporary short term sting, but I think in the end, in the long term, we're able to find a sense of relief, gratitude, and acceptance. But friendship breakups are really, really difficult. A lot of women say, like, more than romantic relationships. And I think that's for a couple different reasons. The first is when you're, you know, with a partner, you enter into it knowing there might be a chance that this doesn't work out. But with friends, you're rarely ever thinking that you meet somebody like, she's amazing. And that's the story. So it's hard to reconcile expectations with reality when things don't work. I think another reason it's really hard is because, you know, the research shows that we women integrate our friends into our life to the degree of a sibling. But men integrate their friends into their life to the degree of a cousin. So we naturally do get very, very close to your point. Like, you're another woman. You see me. So if you unchoose me, it feels deeply painful. Whereas if a man unchooses me, I can find a way to dismiss it as like, well, he's not my type, other fish in the sea. But with a friend, to have a woman see you and then elect to not be with you anymore does make you question, am I interesting like I thought I was? Am I lovable like I thought I was? If she does, doesn't want to be with me anymore. So it can be really overall disruptive to, like, your sense of self.

Totally. So women see friendships like siblings, and we see men like cousins, or men see friendships.

Men see their. Their friends, cousins. So, like, the degree of closeness that they bring them into their lives, it's not even the same.

That's huge. Yeah, because we literally see. It's like sisters, you know, and guys say brothers, but it still is. It's so funny because girls, we talk about everything to each other. Like, guys listen to. We about. Talk. Talk about really everything, you know, and guys don't. Like, sometimes, like, me and my friends will be like, do guys talk? We're like, no freaking way. If guys heard our conversations, they'd be like, you guys are just disgusting.

Yeah. And it's funny because I always like to highlight. Like, I'm definitely not saying men don't have the capacity, but I'm saying generally that group does not lean into that tendency. And that's why we have that running joke of like, you know, your man comes home after hanging with the boys, and you're like, oh, my gosh, did his wife have the baby? And he's like, oh, I don't know. Like, I don't understand.

We're gonna know exactly what position she was when she birthed it, if we're having sex yet. And, like, all of it.

I want the whole story. And so it's tricky because, you know, research shows that when women are distressed, we tend to go to our partner and our friends. When a man's distressed, he goes to his family and his partner. They don't tend to go to their friends when they have emotional distress. It might be because men like to. You put on an air of self sufficiency. So to go to a man and be like, I'm actually struggling financially or my marriage is really hard, feels like it's taking away from that air of, like, I got this, I'm a man. But it leaves a lot of women doing the emotional labor. Because I'm the person you go to, my friends go to, my parents go to. But men often have never experienced emotional intimacy with anyone but women. But what does that say? We've experienced it with, like, a man, if we're romantic with them and with other women, but they only know most of them, emotional intimacy with a woman. And that would be a problem.

It's so crazy because I'm like, you know, thinking of the fact that most guys don't talk about their relationship with Anyone?

Yeah.

I'm like, how do you know what to text? Like what? Like, you just write it yourself. It's crazy. You know? Like, damn, y' all really self in a way that's so beautiful. Like, they're just, like, going about it.

Well, maybe he doesn't need a ghostwriter to help him type. W. I D. Yeah.

What you doing? Like, he asked me how I am, which I respond. I think, okay, good smiley, great wake. No, no, no. Can't do the wig.

Meanwhile, he's like, morning, beautiful. Oh, my God.

Yeah, exactly. But then I'm like, well, maybe it could have helped them in relationship. I'm like, I've just thought about, like, situations, like, conflicts I've been in with guys, and I'm just like, you're going through this alone? I have a team of people behind this, you know?

Yeah. I saw video Once on TikTok that, like, blew up, and I'm. I'm not surprised. But it showed this guy's text, and it was like, they had put it, like, on the screen or the projector, and he had, like, six friends, and they were like, dude, no, you cannot write that. You're gonna look like a creep. And I'm like, okay, love this for them. Yeah, love this for them. You know?

Exactly. But, yeah, it's like, in a way, like, that's. That's so beautiful. And I. And I do think that's why men. It's harder for them to actually leave relationships than it is for women. So, you know, 80% of divorce papers are signed by women.

Right, right.

You know, so often men. It takes them longer to get into the relationship. He doesn't want to get rid of his freedom, and da da, da da. Doesn't want to settle down. But once he's in a relationship, he's way less likely to leave. Probably now I'm seeing so much of it is because he has nowhere else to go to for his emotional needs.

Yeah.

That you are his best friend and his therapist is his everything. And then a woman's like, I'm everyone's everything and this. And you can't even hold space for my emotions, really. So, like, what am I getting from this? So I think that does make things tricky, and we do need stronger male friendship.

I totally agree. And I was talking to a male therapist a while ago, and he was saying that, you know, that he gets deeply concerned for men who are freshly divorced because, to your point, women have someone to go to. We have a whole community. We've been nurturing this for the entire course of the relationship, but oftentimes he has not. So when his main source of emotional intimacy leaves, it's kind of like a high alert for a man who's freshly divorced, because unfortunately, they weren't nurturing it in the same way. And maybe culturally as they are growing up, weren't encouraged to. You know what I'm saying? So I don't just say it's something men are not capable of doing. I definitely think there's, like, a societal structure that upholds that reluctance to be like, dude, I'm really struggling, but it makes me worried for our men.

So what would you say for women who are out there dating, they meet a guy, but they don't like his friends? Should that be a red flag?

I think that's huge. I really do. And I think there's a difference between. I mean, I wouldn't hang out with them and like, oh, they're problematic because who do you think his counsel will be when he's got issues with you or he's trying to figure something out? Who do you think his people will be? And if he's turning to guys who are going to say, man, you need to cut her off, or you need to do this, and advising him in such a way to exhibit unhealthy behaviors with you, that's going to be a problem because that's your counsel. And so, again, I think the biggest thing is just. Just saying, okay, is this a preference thing? Like, I think his friends are loud and gross, or am I listening to their conversation? Like, ooh, that's really distorted thinking. Or like, wow, he's kind of misogynistic. I really do think that says something.

I think it's huge. It's something that I didn't fully realize in the relationship I got into. I was 24 years old, and I didn't like his friends at all. And in fact, they were definitely bad influences, you know, And I was just like, oh, whatever, I'm just not gonna really hang out with them. But then, you know, throughout a relationship, you do end up having to hang out with them. So I was always, when I was with them, separate. I wasn't integrated into the community. And he's like, always felt like I now always have to be with you because you don't want to hang out with my friends. And then I'm like, well, you don't need to be with me. I'll just go off and do my own thing. And it always felt like this, like, separation and kind of a rejection for him. Too of just like, you don't like my friends. And they were also the people that he worked with. It was very, like, enmeshed in that. But now seeing that, that should have been a red flag for me of like, if I don't like the people that he spends all of his time with and he's choosing that, then, like, there's probably a values misalignment. And simultaneously, he didn't like the people I was friends with, you know, and then I was always like, no, you need to be around these, like, conscious men. And he was just kind of rolling his eyes at the spiritual community. And so it just showed. Like, I think that's what's hard with dating apps. We. Because him and I met on Bumble and this was 10 years ago now, which is just so crazy. Nine years ago. And what I loved about the app at that time, I was like, I would've never met him if it wasn't for the app. But then simultaneously, we would've never met if it wasn't for the app because we don't have the same friends, we don't go to the same places. We're just not of the same cultures in terms of interests and that kind of thing. So my ideal would be I would love to meet a partner through mutual friends, because then I know there are some common people that we have both found ourselves to. And I also understand just in today's. Today's world, it is really hard to meet people through friends as well.

Yeah. Okay. So two, that's so interesting to hear. Kind of like that dynamic about, like liking your friends, liking his friends, and what it ultimately led to. Two interesting things. The first is they find that people who started off as friends tend to have longer lasting relationships. Probably for what we just said, like, you, you guys are in the same circles. You probably like the same things. And then also they find that couples who have high friendship over lap are also very successful. So couples who are friends with each other's friends. Now, maybe that looks different. Like, I don't need you being besties with my bestie. Right. But the fact that I can leave the room and you guys, like, have your own banter and can joke a little bit is very important. And it's because it's stabilizing to the friendship overall. If we have mutual friends, then if I pop off about you to a friend, she can help advocate for you because she knows us both. So she can say which friends have said, like, Daniel, sometimes you're a little rough with him. That's on you, you know, or maybe he didn't mean it like that. So they can advocate and mediate for us both. We have a shared community. So I know sometimes people kind of champion the idea of like, oh, that's separate my friends. But I don't know that it should be. So again, maybe we're not besties, but the data is telling us that people who have shared friends in their relationships tend to ultimately be more successful because.

You also have the community supporting the relationship. And that was the hard thing. In my relationship, we were an island. Just we didn't have a community around us. Especially then when we moved to Miami, it was like we literally were just, just him and I alone in a new city, that we didn't really have friends, you know, and. And I do feel that that's what we used to have back in the day. We had, we were in a tribe and there were people around us and we were in community or, you know, even people who met through a church or something like that, they had that shared sense of community. That's what a wedding is really supposed to be about. People coming together saying, no matter what happens in this relationship, we are going to support you staying together. And I feel because of dating apps, we're just meeting people from completely different worlds and not co creating our new world together, that then when the relationship has problems, it, well, I'm gonna go back to my world and you're gonna go back to your world.

That's so true. That's a good point.

Yeah. And it's interesting because now a lot of my best friends are like my friends partners and I'm also best friends with them too. And it's so beautiful because it's like. And then all three of us can hang out and like, I hope whoever I date can also hang out with them. And it just shows like, that those two people would have been together even if they weren't romantic. The fact that like, I as an outside person can simultaneously to be both of their best friends.

Yeah, love that.

Yeah. And I think too, like, that is the new paradigm. Because the old paradigm would be jealousy of like your friend being besties with your man. And I do think that this definitely brings stuff up. And I think in every relationship it's, it's different. Like I am not besties with all of my friends, partners, like, especially if they're like a lot older. We just like, don't really have things in common. But then like certain ones we, we do. But I think the old paradigm is like, like you better not text my man. You better not get too close. So, yeah, like, how can we navigate? Maybe, like, couples friendships? And I think that's the hardest thing, too, to genuinely find a couple's friend that you and her and him and the guy genuinely vibe so hard.

Yeah, that's really difficult. I think that, like, when you guys, after you have, like, your first couple interaction, when you pop off and go back separate, I think it's okay to be honest with each other. And if he's like, okay, I can't for two more years minutes, talk to that guy. You know, ask yourself, okay, am I forcing this? Is it something that we're gonna. I'm trying to create something that matches the vision that I have of all being besties, because friendship is elective. So if at some point he feels like you're pushing me to do this, it's going against what that even ought to be. So is it a matter of. We adapt to the frequency of how often or the duration. Like, we just do certain things where they don't have to talk and we're entertained by the game or whatever it is. So just figuring out because, like, yeah, it's really nice to have a couple front. But, yeah, sometimes it is difficult to find people who everybody vibes. And I think the next task becomes what can we do together that's enjoyable and how often should we be doing it to keep things feeling enjoyable?

I feel like with couples friends, it's really the women that need to be closer because guys can kind of get along with anyone. I feel they'll find something. But the girls need to get along.

Yeah.

If it's like, two guys and they brought, like, two girls that don't, it's just. Just. It's not gonna go away.

Really awkward.

Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, it's like, I. I think that's the vision for so many of us is to, like, have groups of friends where they're all friends and there's, like, trust and support. And I think we're. We're getting there as a society, but it takes having these hard conversations. Yeah, I agree.

I agree. And I. To your point about friend groups, I see a lot of content about that of people saying, like, I just want a friend group, and I want it for. And I just think that speaks to, like, a certain collective loneliness because we are designed for community. And I think a lot of times when we go into these siloed friendships, we yearn to be a part of something greater than ourselves. And so having a friend group is nice. But I think that really speaks to your need to be among groups of others. And maybe that's community centered around various aspects of your intersectional identity. And not necessarily six people who you hang out with every Friday night. And they all like each other. Like, so thinking realistically, what does it look like to really have a friend group, but what is at the heart of that request? And I think it's being in community. And I think you have to ask yourself that. So one, I guess, exercise I like to give to a person who's feeling like, man, I want a friend group. I need to be more plugged in is think about the statement I am blank and complete that statement with some aspect of your identity and then do that maybe like five times. So for me, I might say, I am a woman, woman, I am black. I am a creative, I am a mother. Am I in communities for those various aspects of my identity? Because that gives me some direction for where I feel like a longing or where I feel this connection. If I'm not with other women, I am going to feel like something's off. If I'm not sometimes talking to other moms, I am going to feel a sense of under support, you know. And so I just think that for those, you know, people who are listening and they're like, man, all this talk around friendship and friend groups, I want that for myself. If you're struggling to know where to even start finding community, that might be one way to gain some direction.

Is there more success among siloed friendships or friend groups? Is there any research on that?

Yeah. So one study suggests that the reason women's friendships are fragile, or at least more fragile than men's, is because we are a dyadic, meaning we form Dyads 1 to 1, which accounts for how close we are. But sometimes when there are tensions, you don't have the third party to mediate. So kind of that reflection of what we just talked about, of having friends outside of the marriage or relationship and having that overlap, kind of the same thing. So if we're on the outs, who do we have to help keep us together or to encourage us to have harmony? And so sometimes it's helpful to have that third party, but it's very natural for women to tend to splinter off totally.

Because even when you go to a group dinner, it's always the girl will turn to whoever's the closest to you and then be in their own conversation. And then sometimes, sometimes it's like, I'm such a group person, so. And I sometimes just Take on that role that, like, if there's like, a group dinner or a group trip, I will be the one. Like, hey, like, what's everyone's intention for the new spring equinox? Like, let's go around the table and, like, bring it back to the group. And people often thank me because people just forget. It's just, like, a certain skill set that I have of, like, let's get everyone talking. Cause it's so easy to just, like, turn to the person and then kind of when your pair has stopped talking. But you'd feel weird interjecting in the middle of this, like, really intense conversation. And then you're kind of just like, sitting there. And then so you just keep continuing talking to your person. Then you're just like, I. I feel this happens every time. You spend the whole dinner just talking to one person.

Yeah.

And the whole point of it was to, like, socialize. I also think it's like, we. We're just comfortable with the people we already know. So it's like, oftentimes I'll go to, like. Like, I'm very much part of, like, the female, like, entrepreneurial circles here, but then I'll find my friend that I know. And sometimes I don't see that. So I'm just catching up with them instead of what really is. The purpose of it is to go to the person that I don't know. And it's like. And it does take that reminding.

Yeah. It's interesting because I was speaking at a sorority recently, and some of the older women in the sorority were saying, like, you know, Danielle, I hear you saying, like, we gotta mix it up and make sure we don't just get consumed with this one. We have to branch out. I hear you, but the last time I tried that, this woman said to me, she was maybe, like, in her 40s, 50s. She said, you know, the last time I tried, you know, going to a group outing and telling my bestie, hey, I'm actually going to mix it up and go sit over here. She was upset with me, you know, like, how. How could you go and engage these other people? You should be with me. And so it is one of those things that it's tricky, but I think managing expectations. I know recently I went to a thing, and I'm an extrovert. I like to mingle. And so before getting into it again, setting expectations, I just told her, like, hey, for 20 minutes, I'm just gonna kind of like, work the room, and then I'll meet you back over at room xyz. And she was like, oh, okay. You know, so trying to offer her that promise of I'm coming back to you, not trying to replace you, but for me, the objective of this event is for me to add some texture to my social circle and talk to other people. But I'm gonna come back to you. But you know, the research shows that people who have relational diversity are happier and relational diversity, meaning you have your mom friend, your church friend, your happy hour friend, your spiritual friend friend. Those people have better well being than people who have mom friend. So to some degree you should be, you know, reaching out to add a little more color. More color, but like a little more life and texture to your social network.

It's so interesting because when I left la, I just knew, like, I was very much friends with everyone doing exactly what I did. They're all authors, podcast hosts, entrepreneurs. And I've known these girls for like seven years. And I was just like, I feel like I'm just bored of these conversations. No shade to them, love them, and they're still my closest friends. But I was like, I want to be friends with like more creatives, like more artists, like more people, like outside of the spiritual circle, just like doing things. And I really set that intention. And I ended up meeting a lot of friends who are like musicians and artists in different ways. And thank goddess for that because they ended up really like supporting me. Even just from watching them, you know, watching the difference of how they share on social media and like, things like that, that actually supported me in stepping into my artistry. So it's almost like my soul knew, first, make friends with these kind of people because that's going to set up the foundation for you because that's who you actually want to become more of. And then from actualizing my artist side and creating my album, I could go back to my entrepreneurship friends and like fully be there with them and appreciate all of them.

Oh my gosh. So true. I've had the same experience. So I'm glad that you decided. Okay. I think something's missing. I need to branch out. I felt the same way where I realized that there was resentment at some point for certain friends because they could not satisfy certain needs. But as soon as I went and supplemented those friendships somewhere else, I found myself more satisfied with them. So it's tricky, but it's totally worth it.

Yeah. And I feel like with the friend group verse, Dyad is like, I think friend groups often come from. For me, my friend groups have come from, like my work. So like, for example, podcast hosts. It's like you even know some of them. And it's like, because we all have podcasts, we all be on each other's podcasts, we talk about podcasts. So it becomes, even if we're not all hanging out, it's like names that each other all know. So there is this, I guess when you meet a friend and you don't know any of the same people, it feels a little bit limiting sometimes in what you can talk about. Because it's like, here are all these characters that you don't know anything about, and you kind of have to, like, get people up to speed with your world. And then as you start to, like, either make mutual friends or know that you have mutual friends, it's like, oh, wow, you're actually, like, more in my foundational part of my life, you know? And that continues to grow and to grow. And yeah, I would say now, like, a lot of my friends who live here, we are doing the same thing. So sometimes it's like the circles, there will be a circle here and it will shift and it will morph. I feel like Covid really changed things as well. Of like, I feel like people are a lot more open now to more friends than pre Covid, at least in the LA world. Before COVID I feel like everyone had their cliques. And after Covid. Cause everyone moved. Everyone's a lot more open is what I've experienced. So, yeah, it's so fascinating. Cause I would say my closest friendships are definitely, like, very one on one. But it is. But actually, no, like. Cause one of those friendships, I don't know anyone in her world. She lives in London, you know. Yeah. Because I met her when I lived in London, you know, And. But the thing is, we share a love for, like, carnival and soca music and like, so that's like our reference point. Whereas, like, other friends. It's so interesting because sometimes I think on every text message I have with a friend, I'm a completely different person. Right. Because it's like a different version of you, that it's all you, but it's like this person's meeting that and that person's meeting that. So I think that back to what you said of the diversity and the rich array of friendships, then you're not being like, why won't you go salsa dancing with me? It's like, that's not your salsa friend, right? You have another salsa friend, you know, Right?

And she's like, I'm not your salsa friend, you know? So I Think. And also, I mean, I don't think we think about this. And I know it doesn't sound as romantic of a notion, but sometimes there's relief in just being the salsa friend. I mean, I. We don't talk about that too much. And again, I don't think it's, you know, being reductive. But sometimes, thank God, I'm just a salsa front. Because you only have so many hours, so much energy, and so I'm only prioritizing, like, three to five people in my life in a very full way. And the research even supports that you have the cognitive capacity to only maintain three to five super close relationships. So for everybody else outside of that, I only have the capacity to be the salsa friend. I can't also be telling me the drama with the boyfriend friend and the travel friend and the business strategies friend. I don't have it to get. So I love that the thing that connects us is salsa. And that's okay. That's our thing. But I know for women, we do bring so much to the table, and we do integrate our friends in so many different ways that sometimes it feels disappointing when we start to feel like she can't be all the things. But I have found that I have experienced more abundance in my friendship landscape by seeing what people have to offer and not holding them to. But it feels more free, and I feel like I'm getting so much more.

And something that you shared once was that sometimes you put someone on a different tier and they can't and doesn't mean you have to kick them off. It's like. It's like, okay, so now I know this is just, like, the level of friendship that we have, and I think that that's so important. Cause what sometimes happens is, like, let's say you're my salsa friend, and then I come to you with my relationship things, and you don't respond to me for, like, a few days. And then I'm, like, feeling rejected and heartbroken. It's like, okay, okay. I tried her out as my relationship advice friend. She can be that, but she can still be myself a friend, you know? And, like, maybe she could be my something else friend instead of being like, I'm rejected from her. I'm never talking to her again, which I feel oftentimes we do.

Yeah, yeah. A hundred percent. And, you know, I've heard people say, and I don't know if you've heard this or said this, but people will sometimes say, you know, if it ain't deep, I don't Want it. Like I'm just gonna overshare from the beginning because I want this to be deep and that hunger to make everything profoundly deep. I think it's a, a beautiful thing when you have it. I also think there are some unintended consequences of trying to make every connection you have really deep because you do run the risk of oversharing over trusting because you want intimacy with all of your connections. And I just don't think that's wise 100%.

And, and I think that, you know, like, I have this friend and she's really bad with her phone. Like, I'm such a voice noter. And so when I was living in London, you know, I would send her a voice note and then she wouldn't respond to me for like a week, but then be sending me all of these, like, memes and reels. And so to me, that felt like I'm sharing with you, like, what's actually happening in my life and you're not listening and you're sending me memes and reels. And then. Yeah, and then she would, like, wouldn't really. She would like, never respond to my text, but always be on Instagram. I feel like this happens a lot.

That's a big one.

Yeah. And then I actually brought it to her of like, you asked me for an update in my life and I sent you like a 10 minute long update. And like, I didn't even want to talk about these things. They were like hard things that had happened in my life. But because I care about our friendship, I wanted to bring you in and up to speed on things so that I spent 10 minutes going through all of these things and then you don't even respond to it. And you asked me so, like, I'm totally cool. Like, we don't need to be sending each other updates on things. She took that as I was friendship breaking up with her. So she was like, oh, my God. I like feel, feel like you're bringing up my abandonment wounds here. And I was like, she felt like I was saying it's all or nothing of like, if you can't voice note with me, like, then it's okay. I'll just see you whenever we're in person. And I took it as, we don't need to catch up on voice notes. We can just catch up when we're in person, you know, and it's like the same exact thing. It's like both sides make sense. And luckily both of us have like, emotional intelligence and we're able to talk through, through it and now I just kind of know like she's not gonna listen to a voice note so let me just not send it. But I don't need to like, I don't hold her to that standard.

Yeah.

You know, and I just know that some people are quick responders on things, some people aren't and there's beauty to them and you just kind of have to like learn each person.

Yeah. And I think that's exactly what it is is being comfortable enough to ask questions, have conversations. And a lot of of us we go into because we fear rejection so much, we get one little pushback or one little piece of tension, we're like, oh, this is not what I thought, I'm out of here. And it's just like, I don't know, like having no resilience in our friendships. And so it's okay to negotiate, it's okay to talk, it's okay to co create. Okay. What feels good for us. Let's just stick with in person catch ups, you and I, because the voicemail thing ain't working girl, you know, so. But we're negotiating what feels good here for us. And I'm doing that in all of my friendships, giving them room to co create their individual relationships. But I think some of us are literally so immobilized by a fear of rejection that we're not expressing what we want in friendships that we sense a little tension, a little pinch in them. We're out of here because it feels awkward to lean into it. And I just think it's keeping a lot of us lonely and isolated, to be honest, 100%.

You know, I saw this post of this girl and she was like, yeah, I'm a lone wolf. Like I just don't do female friendships. Females are too much drama and this and that. And I'm just like, that's so sad because female friendships are so important and so nurturing and we need them. They are like for our survival. And oh my God, especially being single has taught me just wow, friendships will see you and support you in a way that like no romantic relationship will. And it's like they say your friends help men to heart. They never broke. And I saw that to be so true and like especially the me working through that vulnerability piece of light. I never wanted to be the negative one. So I always kind of just like, you know, I would share with them my problem before, like but like after I figured it out on my own, you know, of like I just never wanted to burden anyone. That was my big fear of like, I never want them to think I'm a burden and then abandon me because of that, you know? And then with this, I was just like, like, I'm just going to bring them in my process. And it actually made me so much more intimate with my friendships that one of my friends actually mentioned. And they were like, you're just so much more. Like, I was never physically affectionate with friends ever. Like, especially Persians. Like, you're just not. And now I'm just so much more like. Like, I tell my friends I love you all the time and I just like send them cute memes and I like, want to hug them and. And I was never that person. And I'm like, wow. It just shows how, how we evolve so much in our friendship styles too, that I could have created this identity of like, this is the kind of friend I am. And it's like life circumstances really change things. And I feel me working through those blocks that were always blocks within myself are what allowed me to have these friendships. So if anyone's listening to this and they're like, I really want friends, I feel like I'm the lone wolf. It's like, look at ourselves. Of like, what are those patterns that you've mentioned in your book outlines? So many of them that tend to keep coming up in the friendships. And it's like, how can I, you know, take my part in what is co creating this? And I feel like that also. I also feel that living your dharma elevates your vibration. And then you find friends. Living their dharma and you find friends. So it's like doing the inner work actually shifts who you magnetize in your field.

Yeah, I could not agree with that more. And it's just so tricky because I'm sure we all do it for different reasons. Like the people who are very vocal around like, I can't do women that and I don't need friendship. I think a lot of us got there for different reasons. Right? But I think a lot of us were either trying to protect ourselves. So before you can get rejected, I'm going to act like I don't want you either. Not realizing that that's probably not attracting female friends. Like to say, like, you're so inferior. And here are all the ways and here are all the reasons I don't want to be your friend. I mean, it's certainly not pulling women to you. So it's kind of like a cyclical thing. But I know for me, I always say this sounds so. Well, I was gonna say this sounds woo woo. But I'm in good comfort.

You're on the highest level.

Nothing's too very unbrand here. But truly, honest to God, the more comfortable I got in my skin with myself, being silly, looking foolish, admitting flaws, I feel like it made me closer to other women. And I definitely was the girl who was like, I'm not like other girls. Like when I started college. College, 100%. But if I am keeping it real, it was because being in the company of other women highlighted my perceived inadequacies. So if I don't feel beautiful or smart or interesting, it is very hard for me to be in the room with women who are because I feel like it magnifies my lack. But as soon as I got comfortable with, like, I've got what I've got, I'm shaped how going to I'm shaped. It just made it so that I see other women as an extension of myself. You are me, I am you, and I can enjoy you more. And so I really do get concerned about women who have such a an aversion to other women because it makes me immediately wonder about their relationship with their own personal sense of womanhood.

So true. Yeah. It's often discarding our own sacred feminine wisdom, you know, and if we're out of touch with our own emotions, we're going to see all women as so emotional. If we're out of touch with our own neediness, we're see all women as needy. And it's just all a mirror looking back at ourselves.

Yeah. Yeah.

So this was so good. Like a freaking dissertation here. So thank you so much for sharing everything you shared for guys. You need to follow her on Instagram and TikTok. She shares so much. And get her new book, Fighting for Friendships. What day does it come out?

It's on May 7th. And I'm just. Everybody's been so supportive and I'm excited to get in people's hands, really, just to start the conversation around how to tangibly begin enjoying more satisfaction in our female friendships.

Oh, it's so good. So I will have that link listed below in the show notes. This is a really good episode to share with your friends. Like, listen to this. Send this to your friends. Because if you're like, I want to have deeper friendships, but I don't really know where to start. Share this conversation with them because then you can have a conversation on this and like, hey, this happened to me in another friendship. Or like, hey, like, I never told you this when it happened, but, like, this could be a great time to talk about about this thing and it's just such a great way of like bringing something like a third party voice will be the third party voice here to have these deeper conversations that we all really want to have. And then you can have those like close, amazing friendships where you feel so seen, heard and understood shared on your Instagram stories as well. Tag us. Our Instagrams are below. And I'm so grateful to see you have thriving friendships that support you on a soul level and raise the vibration of the planet. So thank you guys so much for tuning in and I'll see you on the next one. Trust your intuition, Trust your inner wisdom, Trust your inner guidance. So trust your intuition, Trust your inner wisdom, Trust your inner guidance.