563: The Science Behind Attraction—And Betrayal. How Neuroscience Informs Love with Dr. Tara Swart

What advice do you have for people who are, you know, coming out of maybe a betrayal, Infidelity, to trust again. Is there any science around how we can train the brain to trust when maybe after we're, like, really on guard, looking for red flags, we're afraid we're going to recreate that same trauma?

Yeah, yeah. So time again and gathering evidence. You know, there's so many examples of people who have been through something similar and with time and whatever work they needed to do on themselves and you know, potentially with therapeutic help as well. And I mean, I'm talking about talking therapy, not medication. You know, most people get there, so. And it does make me really sad when I see. See the smaller group of people that I'm aware of who that one instance shuts down their heart and they can never open it up again. You know, we lived in tribes where, you know, most of us really benefit from being in partnership. And I think this is going to sound really hard when you're in the early stages of it, but with time, what you see is that it is a choice. And so at some point you have to make that choice. That I know not all people are bad. I know there are people who've been through what I've been through, and I can't take my past experiences and now put it on to someone else who's got nothing to do with that.

Welcome back to the Highest Self podcast. My name is Sahara Rose, and on this podcast, I love to take spiritual concepts, especially matters of the heart, because I really feel that's what the spiritual journey is all about, and make them really grounded, modern, fun, and accessible. So for those of you who are new on my journey, at the end of December 2022, I got a divorce, and it was not so fun. It was very unexpected, and it brought up all of these shadows and limiting beliefs and childhood things and ancestral things that were underneath the surface that I feel heartbreak really gives us the opportunity to dive into. And so I decided to take this as. As the moment for me to do, like, all of the deep, deep excavation work that, honestly, I would not have done had it not been for that experience. So it was really interesting because as I was doing a lot of shadow work, I started to notice that who I was attracted to would change. So at first, you know, I was attracted to people that I wanted to be like. And then I started to ask myself, why is this? And I began really becoming so curious about the science behind attraction. And that's what led me to the guest that you're going to see on today's podcast, Dr. Tara Stuart. She is a neuroscientist who literally knows all things about neuroplasticity and why our brains produce certain chemicals and hormones that they do. Last year on the podcast, my bestie Rosie and I were talking about what we've learned about the science of attraction. So I'm so excited that you're going to be learning from an expert now who really has dedicated years of her life to researching this, but also makes it really grounded, accessible. She's very deeply spiritual, and she knows what it's like to be a woman today. So I'm so excited to have her on. I know I'm going to learn a lot of new things. I have a lot of questions. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the Highest Self Podcast. My name is Sahara Rose, and on this podcast, we talk about matters of the heart. I love to take spiritual concepts and make it modern, fun, relatable, accessible, so it can actually serve your needs. So wherever you are on your spiritual journey, whether you're brand new or you're decades deep in, I welcome you here. We about to have a lot of fun, and I can't wait to dive deep with you. All right, let's drop into this episode. So without further ado, let's welcome Dr. Tara to the Highest Self podcast. Welcome.

Hi, Sahara. It's so lovely to be here.

Love that we're both wearing pink.

I know.

So the first question I'd love to ask you is, what makes you your highest self?

Well, I'm a big advocate of neuroplasticity, which is the fact that our brains can grow and change throughout life. So until we had sophisticated brain scanning technologies, we kind of thought that by the time you stop physically growing, like around the age of 18, that your brain also becomes fixed, like, you know, like your height, so that your intelligence, your personality, what you're attracted to, you know, that's kind of then set for your adult life. We now know that that is a very active process that happens by itself, really dynamically, till we're about 25. And then from 25 to 70 plus, you have to put more effort in to keep yourself at, you know, your best self, living your best life at your peak performance. And so for me, my higher self is that I'm always thinking about neuroplasticity and what I can learn, how I can grow, how I can change.

Yeah, it's so interesting how we have to put in that work, but most of us don't, you know, most of us Just like go to a default and maybe cognitively kind of stay limited at wherever our developmental process ended at 18. And then I feel like then we have moments and experiences like heartbreaks, moves, job losses, deaths in our family that, you know, not everyone takes that opportunity, but some of us can. So I want to talk about attraction. So what is actually happening when, let's say you see someone, you're at a party, you see someone, and just something about them, first of all, do they feel the same thing? Is there like a science, like you're both feeling it, or can it be one way?

Okay, can I just say something before we start this, which is in 2019, I did write a book called the Source, which was about the neuroscience behind manifestation and the laws of attraction. Somehow I've become like this dating guru by mistake because I made one comment on a POD podcast.

We all want to know. Yeah.

So I have now, in preparation for meeting you, really looked into the research around that. And you've got to bear with me because the research has been done on voles, which are little rodent like creatures. But in our conversation together, we can extrapolate that to how it plays out in your real life. Right. So I'll start off by saying that these voles, the researchers about the prairie voles, they are monogamous for life. So they meet each other, they bond, they have baby voles, and they want to stay in the home together and protect their nest. And they're not interested if another vole, a female vole, is presented. He's not interested. Unlike their cousins, the marsh or mountain voles, who are extremely promiscuous and will continually move on to the next Mrs. Vole if given an opportunity, something new is always preferable to the one that they know. And the major reason for this is that in the marshes and the mountain, there's plenty of shelter and cover and food. On the prairie, there's great stretches of land without much shelter and without much food. So it makes more sense to become monogamous in terms of creating survival at our most primal. What our brain is trying to get us to do is to survive long enough to reproduce. Now, obviously, in the modern world, things are more complex than that. So that's not necessarily everybody's goal, let's say. And what the research has really shown us, and I'm really pleased you mentioned this, is more about how to deal with loneliness, heartbreak, and grief. But obviously, at the other end of the coin, there's implications for dating, like behaviors and stuff. So what we see in Bonded pairs is that receptors for hormones like oxytocin and vasopressin that cause bonding rather than promiscuity. There's more of them in the reward centers of the brain. So, you know, when you, like, you know, sing a song that you love or, you know, you see how well your music's doing, you get a reward. If you're bonded to your partner, then you get a reward every time you see them and you feel distress. If you see them in pain, you try to comfort them through touch, and that induces more oxytocin, the bonding hormone. But that bond, that potential lifelong bond, can dissolve through prolonged separation. So if you can't see your partner or you spend a lot of time away, you can gradually lose receptors in those areas that give you such a reward when you see them or hear them.

You know, that's so interesting because a lot of the dating advice is be hard to get, be mysterious, disappear. Don't answer their texts. And they say especially that men bond through your absence. So is that true that women bond through oxytocin? So it's through connecting and then men bond through vasopressin, which they say is the stress hormone. So is it both the distance and the stress, or do they also like oxytocin? You know, this sounds like a mismatch here.

Yeah, the separation thing is when you've been in a bonded pair.

Yeah.

So let's say one of the partners dies or they separate and therefore they don't live together and see each other as much anymore. All we're saying with that research is that you can heal over time in a relationship. You know, in the modern day human, there are relationships that sometimes there's long distance or like periods of separation. And I think there it becomes much more of a choice where you can override the biology. You know, we're talking about either the one end where there's loss or separation or the time where you are bonding. Once you're bonded, then it's a decision. Let's say you had to travel to the UK for work for several months like you sometimes do. It's not necessarily true that your husband is going to forget you. There's decisions that you make and ways that you stay in touch that helps that to not happen. Right. But yeah, coming back to the hormones, I'm glad you know so much about them already. So oxytocin is very much the bonding hormone for both sexes, but women will always release it when they organize orgasm. And so the more repeatedly you have sex with the Same person, you're going to be releasing more oxytocin and cumulatively feeling more and more bonded to them. For men, they do release oxytocin when they orgasm, but it's quite buffered by the higher levels of testosterone that they have. They have seven to eight times as much testosterone circulating through their body than we do. But also the super interesting fact is that vasopressin, which is actually a lot of these hormones, have multiple functions. Vasopressin is to do with your blood pressure, your blood volume, and the salt and electrolyte balance in your blood. So it's more related to your kidney function, but it also is implicated in bonding. And when a man has sex with a woman, his vasopressin massively drops. If a guy is interested in a woman, but she makes him wait for sex, the vasopressin levels get higher and higher every day that passes. And he's interested in her, but he's not getting to complete the sexual act. So the way that this is kind of described in the science is that your genes, which give you your levels of vasopressin and oxytocin and the receptors, so where they are. So basically, not just the fact that you have those hormones, but the impact that they have on your brain and your behavior, depending on how many receptors you have and where they're placed, they load the gun for the situation that's going to take place in a marriage or a divorce. But sexual activity changes the wiring, so that's what actually pulls the trigger.

Do you see yourself one day starting a podcast, writing books, speaking on stages, sharing your message with the world? But the thing is, you are afraid that you're not a good enough speaker yet. Maybe you're inspired by people like me and Gabby Bernstein and you know, you have it within yourself too, but you just don't know where to start. Well, I have gotten this question so many times, and this is why I've created my speak with soul 21 day method. This guides you from awkward to confident speaker in just three weeks time. I guide you through daily prompts, practices, and share all of the wisdom that I have learned as a professional soul speaker, podcaster, author, and someone who literally makes a living sharing my voice as well as through music, and how you can too, in your own unique way. So the testimonials from Speak with Soul are insane. I have seen people literally be hired to host their own radio shows. Hundreds of people start their own podcasts, create YouTube channels, IG Live series, get book deals, the list goes on so whether you want to professionally share your voice or just get better in conversation and connection and just feel more confident in what you say and not feel like you're so in your head and release any fears or hesitations you have around the way that your voice sounds and its pitch. Well, this course covers all of it. So it's just 10 minute daily videos for 21 days that I promise you if you follow this process, you will be a complete, completely other person on the other side. Because truth is, when is the last time you spent any time on your speaking? For most of us it was like maybe a awkward speech in high school and we never touched it again. So speaking is the way that we communicate with the world. It's the most important thing we can do. It's the way that we get our message across. And I know if you're listening to this podcast you have a really important message to share because regular people don't listen to this podcast. So if you're feeling the call, come join me in Speak with Soul. I have a special 25% off discount for you listed below. So head over to the Show Notes or over to speak with soul course.com that's speakwithsoulcourse.com to receive the 25% off right now and you can also find that link in the Show Notes. I'm so excited to hopefully be on your podcast. This show is sponsored by Better Help. What are some of your self care non negotiables? So maybe you never skip a leg day or pilates or going to therapy. For me it's my morning breath work. Wherever I am, even if it's just for 10 minutes, I will do some breath work and it just clears out that old energy and allows me to really be present for the day. So we all know that things like self care make us happy, but we don't make time for it. So it's really important to take a moment to examine what are the self care practices that actually make you feel better, that release stress, that allow you to become your highest self. And therapy is a really great place to get clear on this. So if you are new to therapy, I highly recommend giving Better Help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire, get matched with a licensed therapist and you can switch them at any time for no additional charge. So never skip therapy day with better help. Visit betterhelp.comsahara to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp h e l p.comsahara and you can find that link in the show notes. So just intuition, trust your inner wisdom, trust you inner guidance. So there's a truth to having a man wait because that will make him more bonded to you. Hmm. It's interesting because that's overall what I hear, but I listened to this one psychiatrist or psychologist, and he was saying that, and he's a male, so I don't know, maybe this is just what he wants, but he was saying that, that the opposite is true. Because he believes, he said, as a man, if someone keeps making you wait, you're just going to get it from somewhere else. And instead, if you build a sexual bond with them, men are very in their bodies and physical and that will lead to him connecting with you more.

Okay, well, I mean, I think, let's just ask every single person that listens to this podcast if that's correct or what I'm about to say is correct. Okay. You make a guy wait and he goes and get it. Gets it from somewhere else. Is he going to end up marrying her or marrying you? Right.

Exactly.

It's like, that is. I can't believe a scientist or a doctor said that.

And he also said, I'm just going to share it here because I won't say his name. He was like, just make sure it's.

The best sex he's ever had because.

Then he's for sure going to keep coming back to you and do it sooner. That was his advice. You heard it there on YouTube.

I think that's terrible advice. Sorry.

But I think that's what's so hard today because we do hear these certain things and then we're like, a lot of the science seems to be conflicting. Right. Of like, make him wait. Don't make him wait. What are the things that we're attracted to? So it's hard because I feel like oftentimes we're intellectualizing the process of, like, am I trauma bonding with you? Is this genuine attraction or not? So, okay, how much of attraction do you think is related to this person is mirroring your childhood traumas and that's why you feel a connection with them.

Great question. Which I'd love to get into. I just want to go back a little bit to, you know, pick up on something else that was said by this person, which is, you know, make sure it's the best sex he's ever had. Well, there is no way that you can ever measure that. Right. So you will never know whether you've achieved that or Not. And what that really makes, what that implies is that somebody stays in partnership for life with someone because it's the best sex that they ever had. I mean, do you think that's true? No, no. So I just, I don't want like young women and girls to hear this stuff and for it to make them behave in a way that isn't in keeping with their integrity. Because if you really question those things, you know what the answer to that is? The answer to that is not put out as quickly as you can and try to be great in bed. That's not what's gonna happy for the rest of your life. So let's relate that to the trauma bonding from childhood. So that's all physiology. Now psychologically, we do say that you are very likely to be drawn to and meet people for romantic connections as well as friendships who are at a similar level of psychological wound to you. Now you've done a lot of work recently for a reason, right? So you may have girlfriends your age who haven't had a crisis yet, so they haven't done that much kind of work. And sometimes that means that friendships drift apart as well because you're becoming more evolved psychologically. And it may be difficult for people to understand you, be around you. It may be difficult for you to witness certain behaviors that you've moved on from. So it both draws us to people at a similar level, which isn't always a bad thing, but it can also, if somebody does the work, it can also draw us away from, from certain people.

It's so true that everyone that you're attracted to is such a mirror of where you are at in your consciousness and reflecting back. And, and it's interesting because a lot of people, they say, oh, I'm, I'm attracting. Fuck boys, I'm attracting. And it's not that we're attracting, it's. We're attracted to. Right?

Yeah. And like, you know, that's very much about boundaries. Right. So that's something I'd like to relate to everything that we've just discussed. Whether it's how quickly you have sex or like what kind of level of psychological wound you're attracted to or attracting, which is that you can have your boundaries transgressed by someone verbally, emotionally, physically, financially, sexually. And of course a lot of this stuff is happening non consciously and there are lots of reasons for that. But it's about having the right advice around you, the right friends, or being able to question yourself enough to say is it okay that because someone paid for dinner they're expecting me to do X. Is it okay that this is the third time in a row that I've paid for things and the person hasn't offered? You know, just really being able to step back and say, what would you advise your best friend or your sister? And trying to, you know, really do that for yourself if you don't have enough people around you that can test that with you. But also what I would say is be mindful of the agenda of the people that you are asking questions to, even if they're your best friends and family out of love. Everyone has an agenda for you, right? And often it's that your single friends want you to be single, or your married friends or your parents want you to be married. So it's kind of taking their advice, but understanding the context that they would have for giving that advice too.

So do you think it's possible to enter into a relationship with someone that you feel no chemistry with, just merely from a, hey, we're compatible perspective? And do you think that that could work long term?

No, I don't think so. I don't see why we would have to compromise or choose. You know, there does need to, particularly initially, be a level of visual physical attractiveness. And actually it turns out that people's voice and accent is pretty important as well. So if we like the way they sound.

I like how you sou so attractive. British accents are the best. I mean, you're winning life.

Yeah, I'm winning in America. In America, I'm winning in London, I'm quite ordinary, but so I know in.

London, everyone was like, where are you from? I'm like, la. They're like, wow, you sound like the Kardashians. I'm like, fml. This is exotic for them.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And being a musician, that's probably actually whether it's. I don't know how conscious it is for you. Probably actually very important because sound is very important to you.

I fall in love with people's voices majorly. What is it about their sound? What are we really listening to from, like, a psychological perspective?

So basically, if you think about the way we evolve, so the third one I was coming to is smell. But in the animal kingdom, they're not looking around and saying, wow, that tiger's stripes are really hot. They're doing it more on smell. Right. So we're very visual because we had to hunt and gather and look out for predators like other animals do too. But in terms of sexual attraction is very physical for us because we're Just like much more involved with the cortex in our brain. But we also have articulated speech and we're the only animal that has that. So it's another thing that we can use to see we attracted someone, whereas, I don't know, like, well, birds, I think they sing to each other when they're mating. You know, there's probably a bit of voice stuff going on.

Dolphins, probably their voices.

Yeah. And then smell, which is, interestingly, it's not a major attractor for us, but it can be a major detractor. So think of this, you know, this celebrity that you were kind of obsessed with.

Yes.

Imagine you met him and he looks so nice. You love his voice already and you met him and he had bad breath. It would probably put you completely off, right? Totally. So it can, it's one that can like prevent attraction, like progressing. But you're not necessarily going to fall in love with someone because they love your smell, you love their smell, but it's a bonus if you do. And there's a reason for that. It's called the major histocompatibility complex, because we're actually smelling each other's immune systems. And if your potential partner has a very different immune system pattern and gut microbiome from you, you're more likely to want to reproduce with him because that would give your child a broader benefit of immunity.

It's so fascinating. I have a friend that was in a long term relationship with someone, but the way they started dating was they were both drinking all the time. Like they would go on dates, be drinking. Even when they started having sex, they were kind of drunk and they fell in love. More of like a familial bond. It was never really quite sexual. And once she kind of stopped drinking, she could not stand his smell. But they were already in a long term relationship and it just grossed her out and it made the intimacy really difficult. Eventually the relationship ended because of that. So, so it's. And then people talk about like birth control pills and how that can shift your immune system because your body thinks it's pregnant at the time. And then when you get off of it, all of a sudden who you're attracted to shifts as well. That's why there's like a research study called the divorce pill saying that the birth control was the divorce pill from all the women getting divorces because they husbands, when they were on the pill, got off to try to get pregnant and then all of a sudden couldn't stand how he smelled.

Well, there's also the fact that when in Our monthly cycles, when we're fertile, we prefer a bad boy, you know, a really high testosterone kind of, you know, alpha male type. But the rest of the cycle, we prefer somebody that's more likely to settle down with us for life. So obviously, changing your hormone profile by taking the pill is also going to, you know, put you in a different category from the fluctuations that you would experience during a month.

And then also, people are much more attracted to us when we're ovulating. Is that across the board, everyone, or is it also like, a different type of man?

I mean, so this one isn't so split between the two types of men that we've just discussed. Everything that I talk about in terms of the science is always based on population norm studies, which means it doesn't include everyone. There's always outliers. But in general, in terms of explaining sexual reproductive behavior, men find women who are ovulating more attractive. And the studies have looked at things like the swaying of their hips when they dance or walk, things like posture and. Yeah, just like, glowing of the skin and things like. And flicking of the hair so that behavior changes when you're ovulating. And men, they definitely notice it.

So what is it that makes women attracted to this bad boy archetype? Is there some science around this? Is it based on, like, evolutionary survival of, like, he would be, like, the most likely to keep you safe from the predators?

Unfortunately not. He's the most likely to get you pregnant and move on to the next woman and get quite a few women pregnant at the same time and make sure, you know, because he's got these strong genes. So it'll be to do with genetic benefits, things like height that we still find very attractive, even though it doesn't necessarily mean that much in the modern day. Yeah. So the alpha male usually had the hardiest genes and everybody would want to be impregnated by him, although he was less likely to hang around. And that's when the beta males would come in and keep the cave safe.

So we're really just still picking up on he has the strongest genes and it's the most likely to survive.

Yeah. Because if you think about it from, you know, definitely now with dating apps, because people are actually stating criteria. But even if I think back to when I was in my 20s, when I was dating, the thing that women most want in men is that they're tall. Yeah. And that's regardless of the height of the woman. I mean, I'm really short, and you're not very tall either.

Yeah.

I'm guessing you still love a tall guy.

And is it just because he's, like, the most likely to be able to, like, get you some coconuts from the.

Tree and probably aim better at the woolly mammoth, you know, with the spear kind of thing.

Yeah.

And see things, you know, further away.

Yeah. And it's interesting because what would be the alpha male, maybe in our society today is obviously not based on that. It's based on, like, their adaptability with our culture today. But they may not physically look that part. And that's where our, like, biology is still kind of slowed down in the. In those times that we still see alpha man as, like, hunter, whereas today it's like, I don't know, like Silicon Valley tech people. I don't even.

I know. I actually think that's really cool because, like, you know, there was a time where the stereotype of, like, the, you know, the ideal, like, husband was in financial services for me as a scientist. I think it's so great that it's like, you know, biotech and biomed people, because. Yeah, yeah, let's let us have our day.

You guys are sexy. You deserve it. And then what about for women? What. What is the science behind what makes women attractive for men?

Well, visual is. Is very, very important for men. And I think it's going to be hard for me to really specify what that might be. I mean, there'll be some obvious things like the. The hourglass figure, but I just don't think that works across the board anymore. So it's what's attractive to you visually. Voice, again, does seem to be more important than we've ever really thought about before. Smell will also be important. And then those are the first three that you do before you come to touch and taste. But all the senses will be involved, so it'll be. I think there's more variation there. And it's basically what triggers reward in your brain when you see it, hear it, touch it, you know, that kind of thing.

You know how everyone has, like, a type and it can shift as well. Not everyone, but a lot of people do. I wonder if that's something in your biology, like, knowing, like my strongest child, like, offspring would be if I merge with this type of person. Probably because it's like, where is that coming from?

Yeah, yeah, I. I think that. Yeah, I always said that people sort of fall into two categories. You're either like a gene pool expander, so you look for someone that's really opposite to you, or you're a gene pool Intensifier. And you do see these couples that look like siblings, right?

All the time.

Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like that was just a theory I had when I was younger. But I think all this immune system and histocompatibility complex stuff is starting to make sense of that.

Does it make your offspring, like a stronger immune system if you create with someone of a different nationality than you? Because I've heard this.

Yeah. So it's funny, someone said that to me the other day and I said, well, it doesn't necessarily have to be to do with race because like, two Indian people, for example, could have very different gut microbiomes. However, your gut microbiome is very responsive to what you eat. So in terms of, you know, all the things that I talk about, like manifestation and vision boards and stuff, people often ask me, what are some of the quickest things that you could do to change your brain body system? And one of them is to change what you eat in response to going from a junk food diet to a healthy diet, let's say as an extreme, your gut bacteria will start to change within days. And so one of the pieces of advice that I was given by my colleague, a dietitian, that I really respect, is that please make sure you are eating enough of the kinds of spices that come from your ethnic background, because your microbiome really needs those. Now, obviously I'm of Indian heritage, but I grew up in England. So although I probably ate a lot more Indian food than most of my friends, once I got to university, you know, I was just pretty much eating like everyone else. So I've really made an effort to go back to eating things that suit me. And on the other side of the coin, if you don't come from a country, let's say, where coconuts grow, then taking coconut products could actually be like, not good for your gut microbiome. So, yeah, it's interesting because if you are in a mixed race marriage, then you might have to think about, obviously for the children, it's good to give them what both your cultures would eat. But for you, it's interesting now to think you should probably be mindful of making sure that you're getting food that's right for you. Especially because in a household you actually start to share your gut microbiome because if you think about it, your sleeping together, eating together, sharing the same bathroom, having physical contact, kissing, having sex. And so there's a lot of transfer of bacteria from your skin, your mouth, et cetera. And what tends to happen is the person with the healthier microbiome will donate cells to the person with the less healthy microbiome. So making sure that everyone's is as good as possible is quite important.

Yeah. That's so fascinating of the healthier person donates. So that's great that it rises rather than falls with the weakest. Is often what happens in other health things. And I totally agree with the ancestral diet. A friend of mine, her mom went macrobiotic and she's European. But after a few years, she started to have all these health issues because that's. Macrobiotic is a Japanese diet. It was vegetarian, and it was just her. She had these bone density issues because she was meant to really be eating meat. That was what was for her. So it's so fascinating. And I was like a raw vegan when I was in college, so I was just eating like raw foods and coconut. And that was horrible for me because my family's from Iran. It's definitely not, you know, coconuts going on the trees everywhere. But it's. Yeah, I think it's hard because then you move somewhere, we're exposed to all of these different foods and certain foods are deemed as healthier. So to remember, even if it's just incorporating some spices, I think that's a really good idea.

Yeah. And also just not doing anything too extreme. So, yeah, I think balance and moderation are really important. And I've been saying that since I was a psychiatrist to my patients. And I feel like it's more important than ever because really since the pandemic, I think there's such a long tail of a mental health crisis that's coming from that. But excitingly, a really big field called nutritional psychiatry, which is how much you can use food to heal your definitely symptoms like anxiety and stress. I'm not saying that just food can heal major mental illnesses, but it certainly helps.

Absolutely. They found that turmeric was as effective as many antidepressants.

Saffron as well.

Yeah, exactly. So it's so interesting. Okay, so I want to talk about when we are in relief relationship. They say that the butterflies or the sparks last anywhere between six months and two years. What can we do to maintain that feeling? Or is it something that we just need to be at peace with? Needs to die away for us to move into this more stable part of the relationship.

I mean, I don't think it needs to die away, but I don't think it's the thing that keeps a relationship going for. And I don't even want to say forever, because I'm not sure. I. I'm not an advocate of the fact that relationships must last forever and really only, you know, if. Again, if we think about evolution, you know, we only really lived till we were about 40. Now if we live till we're 80, 90, 100, that means that you might have to be in partnership with someone for 50, 60, 70 years. And we were never built for that. And there's obvious, you know, there's pros and cons to it. I worry a little bit about my younger friends who have this very strong idea that the next relationship is going to be the one and it must last forever. Because nobody wants to hear this, but, you know, if they look at people my age, most of us have got divorced or separated or, you know, like lost partners and stuff. So it's like, how do you think you're going to be such an exception to what you're seeing in your friends that are 10 or 20 years older than you? You know, just, just. And let's say somebody does meet someone and it lasts forever, wonderful, if that's what you want. But I'm sure, you know, having been through a divorce, that you can make it harder for yourself and you can make it a little bit easier for yourself. You very beautifully said that. You know, maybe that was my way out. It's obviously not what you ever wanted, but you took it as this must mean that this is an opportunity for me to move on in a different way. For some people, it's very hard to get over that for a really, really long time. And it has devastating effects on the rest of their life and sometimes on their fertility. Because if it takes you too long to be able to trust someone again, you might miss the window of fertility, if that's what you wanted. So that initial physical attraction, like you said, tends to last for exactly the amount of time that you described. It should never go away completely. But equally, what keeps a relationship going long term is friendship. Having shared values, having shared goals, being able to have healthy conflict, putting the relationship before each individual part of it. So you putting the relationship before yourself, not always putting the other person before yourself, but kind of seeing that there's you, your partner and the relationship. I would say those are the major things. And even I was thinking when you were describing admiring people for their creative or musical ability and then kind of like just wondering where that merges with then being very attractive to that person. To me, that's almost like you are reaching, like a higher spiritual level of relationship, which is that it's not necessarily based on lust or romantic love. But it's based on something that you will love about that person. Like, kind of no matter what they do. And I'm not saying that's an excuse for what they do. But if there are tough times, you're not gonna not admire somebody's creative ability if that's something that drew you to them in the first place. But equally to unpick that having a very strong connection to someone doesn't always necessarily mean that it's romantic or sexual love. It can just be a very spiritual connection.

Yeah, exactly. I think that sometimes it's to draw you somewhere that you wouldn't have on your own. I think love can make us do crazy things. It can make us move countries and make radical life choices in a way that almost nothing else can draw you. And then it's almost, I feel like the divine's little breadcrumbs taking you to your dharma. And then once that lesson is learned, it's like, okay, that specific relationship maybe is no longer needed. And it takes you on the next part of your journey.

Yeah. And I think what happens in the acute phases of being divorced, and you're very much in the acute phases still, I can say looking back, you know, is that you tend to think, that's it. I failed at that. I'm never going to find anything that good again. And only with the benefit of hindsight, you will see that thank goodness that ended. Because what you get next is gonna be so much better.

Yes. And I feel deep down inside, even the moment that it happened, I knew that, but it did. It was so many. I would say the first six months for me was like deep shadow work. So I'm curious, is there any science around, like, what is happening to our brains after a heartbreak? After infidelity, betrayal.

Yeah. So what we've seen in these reward centers of the brain is that unrequited love. So loss of a love that you had or never getting a love that you wanted actually plays out on the same circuitry as highly addictive drugs like alcohol and cocaine. And when you go into withdrawal from love, there's a lot of activity in the disgust systems of the brain. So a lot of self loathing, a lot of feeling disgusted by the behavior of the other person or persons involved. And something I would say to you personally, but I think you're so representative of women your age these days, I hope it resonates with a lot of people, is not to jump into doing the work too quickly. There should be a period of just being and actually processing the emotions that are coming up for you from this breakup. And then there's a time for the work. But this is probably the most stressful thing you've ever been through in your life. If it wasn't romantic love, let's say you had cancer or a heart attack, would you rush back to work the week later? No. But because we can't see the wound when it's a relationship breakup, we feel like we need to go, carry on, get back to work, do this, you know, do the shadow work. You don't. You'll know when you're ready. And the other thing is, we also feel like I just need to meet someone else now and then everything will be okay. Yes, that's also very wrong because again, when you're at that level of psychological wounding, not that it is this, but it feels like rejection, failure, who are you going to attract at that stage? Probably not the person that you want to be with for the rest of your life. And I remember a really good friend who I'm still friends with now, saying to me a year after my divorce, you think you're okay now, but in a year from now, you'll look back and see that you absolutely were not okay. And it was so true. So, you know, I think giving it time, just being. Not being in a rush to, like, you can't rush that work. Doesn't matter how much work you do. Time is also a factor. And we know this, you know, from the research on the voles that I mentioned, which is if they are separated, there's a lot of distress. And the bonded ones, even if they're presented with an alternative, they don't want to cuddle the alternative. But over time, those receptors, they either become less sensitive or they become less in number in those parts of the brain. And there's nothing you can do to rush that.

Is there any science behind it takes half the time of a relationship to get over the relationship?

Do you know, I had heard that before as well, and I would have to say it rings true for me. And I'm not just talking about myself like some of my friends and clients as well. It does seem it's not going to be the case for everyone. But yeah, there does seem to be something to it.

Is it something around maybe the way the relationship ended that could have to do with the heartbreak? Like if you ended it, your. It's less wounding versus the other person. Is there anything around that?

Do you know, what I've seen with my clients particularly is whether it was you ending a relationship, your partner ending a relationship, or loss of relationship through death, it still takes the same similar amount of time. It's really interesting.

Yeah. It's so fascinating because I remember after my divorce, I was like, okay, if I can just get through this first month. Because the first month is just like, you're out of body. I mean, I couldn't breathe, I couldn't eat. It was just full shock. And then I make it the first month and I'm still really sad, you know. And then I'm like, okay, the first, after the first three months and you know, it definitely starts to lighten up. I would say it was like, for me it was like three months, six months, nine months, one year. It was like almost three, six, nine. Fibonacci sequence. I don't know. But then you. Then I would like. I would always be waiting for a date, you know that. Especially that first year of like. Okay, they say it's the six months. Okay, no, they say it's the nine months. They say it's this and sad. And it's like, the truth is there's never a date that happens that it's like. And now you are totally healed from everything that this is ever brought up for you.

And what happens also is that you do slowly start to get feel better after three, six, nine months. And then the anniversary comes and like hits you in the face like that.

And that's the hardest part of the first year I found is like your first Valentine's Day, your first Christmas, your first birthday, that. And you just have to get through all of those. And then once you get through them, once I have found now this year is so much easier because I've like gone through it that now I like have like a work call on my. What would have been wedding anniversary, you know, which I'm like grateful for because last year it was like, it's coming up like. And it was like this fear of how am I going to live on this day?

And.

But damn, it's like once you've gone through that, I can understand why people are so afraid of opening their hearts again.

Yeah. So the point I was trying to recall earlier, which is relevant to this is that again, this is only based on population norm studies. So there could be men and women that behave differently to this. And I'm. I'm only able to quote research at the moment about heterosexual couples in this regard is that men do tend to move on quicker and so they get the temporary relief of being in a new relationship that makes Them not have to think about the breakup so much. Women tend to take a bit longer to actually heal, but by the time they then open their heart up to someone else else again, they're actually healed. Whereas what I've seen happen to my male friends and my friends husbands when they've been divorced is that they'll have one, two, or three relationships in quick succession, and then they'll have their midlife crisis because they'll realize that they never actually healed from the end of the marriage.

It's so true. I have seen this so often. Definitely happened in mine of like, they just like, move on and just. It seems like they're fine and you're just like, what? Like, are you going through the same thing I'm going through? And. And that's hard because as. As a woman, you. You want that empathy and then to see someone move on so fast. But then you see a year later, there's like a meme, and it's like a woman and a man one month after a breakup, and the woman's like, crying, and the man's like, I'm free. And then it's like one year, and she's like, I'm free. And he's finally crying, you know, And.

I'll take it further than that because what I've seen very often is, is the man only realizing when it's just too late and the woman's just healed that he made a massive mistake and he wants to. Wants. He wants to come back and she's.

They always come back. Yeah, exactly.

Sadly, you know, I remember thinking I would cut my right arm off to. For my husband, my first husband, to like, you know, love me again. And then it got to, you know, then it gets to a point where I've. I've properly healed and moved forward and.

Yeah, and then you're like, thank God it didn't happen when I was so vulnerable, because you could have gotten back into that relationship, you know, so in a way, it's almost like a divine protection, I feel that happens of healing. He thinks he's free to do whatever he wants in the time that the woman is just like, feeling the need to fill that void. Because I do feel there's something like, in the brain. I'm sure you've done more research. That it does feel like for me, it felt like almost like my arm was chopped off. And I didn't know how to live now, being outside of partnership, because I was in seven years in that relationship, four years in a relationship before just most of My life, I've been in partnership, so it's just like learning how to. And even though I was very independent in the relationship, it's just a different way of being. So is it this like. I felt like it was this like ancient survival thing that's like I'm a woman on my own and now I'm vulnerable.

Yeah. So I think, particularly in the more formative years, like 20s and 30s, that when a relationship ends it, however independent you are, you're still independent within a relationship. So you're interdependent. You know, if you go to a networking event or a dinner party on your own because your husband's traveling on business or whatever, you still know you've got a husband. You still got that confidence of walking in there and knowing that if anybody asks you, then you don't have to say, oh, I'm all alone. You can say, oh, my husband's, you know, on business and wherever. It's very different when you have to turn up to events on your own, especially weddings, and there is no backup. And you do have to go through a process of who am I, as me not part of this partnership. And it is a time of self discovery. And I think the only things that really, really work on that journey are forgiveness and gratitude. And so gratitude that you went on certain travels or learnt certain things because those are what your husband was into that you probably wouldn't have done if you weren't with him. And then whatever the situation was that happened, understanding that not forgiving is poisoning your own system and making absolutely no difference to the other person.

Have you recently gone through a heartbreak that rocked your world? And honestly, you're still maybe picking up the pieces. You've learned so much from this experience, but you also know there's so much more awaiting you. You. And probably you have an intuitive sense that this was meant to happen for you to become your highest self. Well, I've been there. At the end of 2022, I found out that my then husband had been cheating on me. And it was the most horrible news I've ever gotten. But now looking back on it, I can say it was my life's greatest blessing because without that I would have never left the marriage, where honestly, we were quite incompatible in many different ways. But it took me getting to that level for me to actually see what was not working in the relationship and for me to set off and create this new life where I traveled the world for a year, started producing music, singing, rapping, dropped an album called My Body is An altar that has hundreds of thousands of streams around Spotify, creating music videos, moving to la, dressing in these really cute outfits, becoming my fullest expression, and most importantly, not having anything in my consciousness that I'm afraid of anymore. I have become truly liberated. And that is the gift of a heartbreak. So all my friends would come to me when they would go through their heartbreaks. I know a lot of people are in it right now. And this is why I've decided to create my ultimate heartbreak healing course. So it guides you step by step with the exact tools and realizations that I used on myself during my heartbreak that have allowed me to not just heal from it, but become this version of me that I am frankly obsessed with. So for 33 days, every single day, I will be guiding you through a practice journal prompt will be writing poetry, healing, and transmuting so much. But most important, taking this as the opportunity for you to become the version of you that you've always felt it was too soon to be. So I'm so excited for you to get started. As soon as you join the course, you can get started. On day one. I have seen insane transformations and I can't wait to see what awaits you on the other side. So head over to iamsahararose.com heartbreak and use coupon code podcast for $50 dollars off. Again, that's iam sahara s a h a r-a rose.com heartbreak and use Coupon Code podcast for $50 off. You can find that link in the show notes. And I'm super excited for you to meet the version of you that's on the other side. Because you're listening to this podcast, I'm going to make a quick assumption about you. Your friends come to you for advice. Advice. Whenever you're at a party, someone corners you at the side of the snack table and starts telling you all of their childhood traumas. And you actually love diving deep into spiritual topics. And you have a really good way of communicating with people. So the best way to actually create a career doing this is through coaching. But I know a lot of people, they're like, I don't even know where to start. I don't even know what type of coach I would be. So I've created a quick, easy quiz to discover your unique coaching style. So there are two, three categories. The intuitive, transformational, or empathetic coach. So the intuitive one really works with your intuition, you're able to receive downloads. You just have insights about people. The transformational one has more of that fire energy you love to keep it real and help people go through the deepest phoenix rising from the ashes moments in their lives. And the empathetic coach really loves to listen. Hold space. They're very grounded, nurturing, nurturing. So if you're curious which type you are, you can try my free quiz@quiz.highestselfinstitute.com Again, that's quiz.highestselfinstitute.com which is my school that certifies spiritual life coaches. And you can find that link in the show notes. I'm super excited to see what type of coach you are because I'm gonna hire you one day. So trust your intuition, trust your inner wisdom, trust you in the guidance. Okay, I want to talk about forgiveness because for a long time, I was like, I can't genuinely forgive this person because that means their actions. I'm okay. My understanding of the word forgiveness was that I'm okay with what you did. I can understand what you did, but not be okay with it. So. And a friend of mine, she was like, yeah, you don't need to forgive. Like. And it's a debate. You know, some people are saying forgiveness is the key, some people saying, you don't. So I was like, you know what? I can't force this forgiveness. Then I one day got very, very sick. I was so physically ill, like, the worst stomach cramps of my life. Nausea, diarrhea, like, I thought I was dying. It was so bad. It was like the neurovirus, turns out. And I knew then that I took it as the opportunity to purge the resentment that I was still holding onto and to feel the way that it was physically manifesting as this cramp in my stomach that was hurting me, that was limiting my health that I don't want to hold onto anymore. And I had a dream that night that was like. It was like me and my ex at the height of our relationship. And then I was like, I have to go. And he's like, why do you have to go? And I'm like, I have to leave. And it showed me that even if those actions didn't happen, that caused the demise of the marriage, my life is still so, so much better without it. And it's like, so then what is there to be resentful about when my, like, thank Goddess, I'm. Thank God it's for the relationship, and thank God it's for that I'm not in the relationship. And for a lot of people, like Iranian culture, Indian culture, it's almost like you don't get a divorce until something really bad. Like the Triple A's, they say, abuse, adultery, addiction. And that's always how I was raised. But now looking back on it, I was like, so why would I be angry over the fact that I have a way better life now? I have, like, I would have become an artist. I would have never been living here in la. Like, all of these things that made me so much brighter. And that to me was I felt I needed that on your knees moment for me to genuinely forgive. And then I felt such a sense of lightness after. So, yeah, I'm curious if you've seen anything in your studies of forgiveness, Effy?

Yeah, I want, you know, I want to acknowledge that we're both extremely lucky that we got to a place where we can see that our life is better. Not everybody does. But forgiveness is still important then, because if you're no longer with somebody that you wanted to be with or maybe even still want to be with, you're not going to change that by any negative emotions which are associated with the stress hormone for you. So I remember when I was a psychiatrist, I had a patient come in through emergency who had attempted to kill herself. And she came onto the ward and we looked after her and. And she started to feel better enough to explain it. And basically her partner, I can't remember if they were married now or not, but he had cheated on her. And her response to that was to try to end her life. And he actually came onto the ward and was very supportive of her recovery. But he said to me I could never be with her again because I can't respect somebody who thinks their own life is not worth living because someone cheated on them. So he said, I'll never be able to get over this. So basically, I have seen people, like, the most broken that you can be by cheating. And I've seen people in the middle, which is that a relationship ended because their partner moved on with someone else, and that's not what they wanted. And they're extremely bitter about it for, you know, the rest of their life. And then I've seen people where that's happened, and it's been extremely painful. And at some point they found the way to, like, forgive and move forward and the forgiveness. So, you know, this debate about should you forgive or should you didn't, should you not, is based on the misunderstanding that you achieving forgiveness has anything to do with the other person. You never have to tell them. They never have to know. It makes no difference to their life. It is. Is only for you that you would do it, because if you don't, you're basically keeping stress in your system. And when you are chronically stressed, levels of the hormone cortisol are high all the time and they erode your immunity, they dry out your system. So, and I, you know, so I'm, I'm going to go for the really like, superficial things first. Your skin won't be as nice, your hair won't be as nice, your nails won't be as nice. You want to be in a relationship, do all the things that are going to make you like, feel your best, look your best. Being stressed out is not going to do that. It will also affect your gut microbiome. So the bloating, the cramps, et cetera, it will erode your ability to fight off the colds and flus that we fight off all the time. Or, you know, even if, let's say I'm really healthy with managed cortisol levels and I do get a cold, it's likely to last for less days than somebody who's stressed. And then in the brain, in the blood supply in the brain, it's removing the resources, the glucose and the oxygen that your blood carries to your brain from your higher functions, like taking healthy risks, trusting, collaborating, solving complex problems. You're just down in low power mode, just trying to survive. So how are you going to work out what your best strategy is for dating and meeting someone else? How are you going to be sociable when actually all you're capable of doing is barely getting out of bed? So I sort of paraphrased it before, but I love this quote, which is not forgiving, is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. So when you forgive, it is absolutely not saying that what the other person did is okay. It's not even saying that you're okay with the other person. It's just saying that you're okay with yourself. And I remember asking a couple of people that I knew had been that it wasn't romantic relationships, but it was something that they had to forgive. And I asked them their strategy and like, the first one didn't really work for me. Second one didn't really work for me. And then someone introduced me to that Hawaiian ho'. Oponopo. And in that. And I did a version of it that may not be the most traditional one, but for me, what I had to do was say thank you, I'm sorry, I love you, I forgive you, I release you to the person and people that had caused me pain. And you have to do it until you absolutely mean it with no reservation. And there were times where I was like, like, okay, I have to say I love you to the woman that had an affair with my husband. But. Because. But I don't love her, so how am I going to do that? And so sometimes I would, like, be. I would say, I love you, and then I'd be like, but I don't. Then I'd be. Then I moved it to, I love you. I don't know you. I just love you because you're another fellow human being. And then I, you know, so slowly I managed to, like, rationalize in my head, but I got myself to the point where I could say all of those phrases about both of them and really mean it. And it was several years afterwards that my first husband, who I'm extremely good friends with now, for the record, said to me, I really, really hope that one day you can forgive me. And I said, I did that years ago, and it was true. And it felt really good.

Is it important to ever tell that person or it doesn't matter?

No.

Do you think that being in touch with an ex while you're still healing can delay your healing process?

Yeah, it's too confusing. I think it's definitely possible for people to be friends later, but too early on, if you try to say, oh, we're still going to be friends, it's just very confusing.

I feel like people use it as a crutch to stay in contact.

Yeah. And, you know, interestingly, there were times. There was a time that I had to say to my first husband, it's holding me back now from being able to meet anyone else. You're just too much of a comfort blanket for me. Me. And I said, this is with no anger, and you've done nothing wrong, but I. I need some space from you now.

So do you feel that, like, a conscious uncoupling could work when there's something like betrayal?

What exactly do you mean by a conscious uncoupling? Obviously, I've heard.

Yeah, it's. I mean, there's like a whole book, but it's essentially instead of having, like, a clear ending that you're no longer talking, you're speaking to each other about what's showing up for you, and you're processing together, and you're kind of slowly unraveling the relationship.

Well, obviously, if infidelity is suddenly found out, then it's quite hard to do that. But if people are mature enough to realize that a relationship probably is ending and they want to do that in the Best possible way then I think that could work. Yeah.

Have you heard of this, like, it's something called like post traumatic betrayal syndrome or something?

Oh, no.

Yeah, it's. It's something around the specific trauma around betrayal. Yeah, because it's like your partner is like your primary, like attachment. It's the person you're speaking to the most. It's your survival. And then to be betrayed by them, it can be. It's like the most gaslighting of an experience.

Well, because it's the sexual bond as well. Because. Because basically you're like best friends that you've had since childhood. That's obviously a very deep bond where betrayal could hurt a lot. But it doesn't involve the sexual element as well. So it's a sexual rejection as well as a betrayal of the friendship, the marriage, the relationship, et cetera.

So what advice do you have for people who are coming out of maybe a betrayal, infidelity, to trust again. Is there any science around how we can train the brain to trust when maybe after we're really on guard, looking for red flags, we're afraid we're going to recreate that same trauma?

Yeah, yeah. So time again and gathering evidence. You know, there's so many examples of people who have been through something similar and with time and whatever work they needed to do on themselves and you know, potentially with therapeutic help as well. And I mean, I'm talking about talking therapy, not medication. You know, most people get there, so. And it does make me really sad when I see, see the smaller group of people that I'm aware of who that one incident shuts down their heart and they can never open it up again. You know, we, we lived in tribes where, you know, most of us really benefit from being in partnership. And I think this is going to sound really hard when you're in the early stages of it, but with time, what you see is that it is a choice. And so at some point you have to make that choice that I know not all people are bad. I know there are people who've been through what I've been through, and I can't take my past experiences and now put it onto someone else who's got nothing to do with that. And, you know, a little bit like you said in that first year post divorce, it's so hard with the first birthday, the first Valentine's Day, and it's not quite as hard with the second one that, okay, let's say the worst case scenario happened again. Let's say you remarry and the person cheats on you again, it's not going to be as bad for you as it was the first time. I don't wish that for you at all. But it's not going to kill you if it happens, you know, and you'll have a stronger boundary for walking away from that in an even better way than you did already.

And I think what it shows you is that you can get through anything in life, you know, and, like, how resilient you. You are. And I think sometimes in like, first, like, loves, you're. You have this, like, naivete of, like, this is it forever, and I've cracked the code. And I think what happens in these situations is it opens your eyes to the reality that, you know, over 50% of marriages do end in this and, and that life goes on. And then you see people become even more than themselves, like, later on in life because of it. But I think that when it's happening, it just, you feel like it's. It's only you and what did I do? And. And it's a lot of self blame.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I also think there's like a lot of narrative that's very socially acceptable that, you know, phrases like, it's so difficult to meet men. I don't need a man to pay my bills. I'm, you know, what's the point of marriage? I'm just such a, like, hopeless romantic love bunny that, that I always say, you know, I love being married. It's not that I can't pay my own bills, but it's nice to share them with someone. And when I say things like that really like successful women that I know and love, then they actually say, well, actually, yeah, I'd like to be married too. And I just kind of want to make that conversation more. Okay. Because when we become hard, it doesn't help us, it doesn't make us better. It doesn't change anything necessarily about the next relationship that we might get into. But I think it doesn't make you your highest self. I think your highest self is one whose heart is really open.

So with how you mentioned our lifespans are so much longer, do you feel that marriage is still serving most people? Because I feel with marriage it does put us into this, like, till death do us part. And I feel like we're just changing so rapidly today that I'm like. And I'm in a question of this for myself too. I'm like, is this really still the model that's working? So I'm curious your thoughts on this.

So I actually went back to my old university to speak on a panel. It was about burnout. But one of the people in the audience did ask about the, you know, the dating scene for young people, like late teens, early 20s. And I remember thinking, I wouldn't want to be their age now. And so the way she framed the question was very intelligent. She said, people are having children later, they're getting married later, they're staying out of relationships for longer. So they're more likely to be living alone or living like in, you know, flat shares with friends. And there's this, you know, loneliness epidemic and mental health epidemic. And what we discussed very much as a group was that we actually think it's going to flip back the other way. So we think it's likely that we'll go to more traditional values of getting married more at the age that you and I first did. Having children earlier again. Yeah. So what happens really, if you look through history is that it oscillates kind of like this. So if you compare the 60s to the 70s or the 20s to the 30s, and then, you know, the 50s was a very traditional time followed by quite a wild time. I think it's a very individual question at the moment. I think that really young generation, you know, I feel like I'm really old saying this now, but it just feels like they don't really have relationships. They're very promiscuous. They're not really thinking about marriage for, you know, for a long time in the future. And I think that's fine if you're really happy with it. For me, I wouldn't be. And I'm not even saying that for all women of my age, it's the same thing. But you have to know what's right for you. But also be very sure that it's not driven by unhealed wounds, because betrayal comes back to one of the most primal wounds that most people have, which is abandonment. Yeah.

I feel that this younger generation has probably seen their parents get divorced and all the different things that they're like, well, this isn't working. But then they flip the other way of, like, so I'm just not gonna define anything and just be a situationship. And, you know, and then that ambiguity is really hurtful because it's like, are you choosing me or not? Are you just choosing me? Until you have the best next option. Especially with dating apps, you're exposed, or you perceivingly are exposed to so many people, but it's a mirage. You know, most of those people you'll never meet. You're not actually compatible with. The conversations don't go very far. And then when you do meet someone, then a lot of them are thinking, well, maybe there's someone better.

Yeah, that's. That's the thing I'm really like. Like seeing people experience is that the feeling of being so disposable because there's so much choice.

Right.

And, you know, some of the things I hear, sadly, are. Well, I go on the apps when I'm feeling really at my worst about myself, and I'm like, come on, girl. Isn't that, like, the worst time to go on the app?

I deleted all of them. I was like, this is doing something to my brain. I mean, it. They are. They work with neuroscientists, but in a kind of shadow way. Like, I don't know if you've ever been on them, but these apps, like. Like Hinge, it puts the people you're most compatible with in this special folder, but you have to pay $2.99 to talk to them. I'm like, what? It's like a. It's a straight up business, obviously, you know, and then, yeah, like, it's never when you're feeling great that you're like, I'm gonna go talk to some strangers on a dating app. You know, it's like, yeah, let's pay $2.99 to start a conversation that's not gonna go anywhere. And then, like, the. I'm curious just the rate of, like, how many people and. And a lot of us, Us. We get in these moods. Like, back when I would use them, sometimes you're just in an open mood that you're just like, okay, this person seems interesting. Sure, sure, sure. And then you go back like a day later and you're like, why did I just say, now they've all messaged me and I have to. And then the ghosting happens, you know, so it's like I've even seen, like. Because it's not a. It doesn't feel like a real person on the other end, but it is a real person on the other end. So it is this, like, because you don't see them and feel them there. It is the sense of, like, you know what? I kind of want out of this conversation. So I'm just gonna be, like, silent and, like, freeze a response. And like. Or for.

Or.

What happens often, too, is, like, you'll get maybe more information about the person that you might not. Like. Like, you Google them or you go on their instagram or you see another picture of them and you're not interested in them anymore, what are you gonna say? Your fourth picture, your nose, look. What are you gonna say? You know, so people just ghost. So it's something like 30% of interactions on these apps. Apps end with ghosting, really.

Once hear someone say, I'm not going to name the app because there's a lot more now than there were at that time. But basically, say, going on this app is like picking through the garbage can on the street outside your house. And I'm not judging anyone that's gone on them, but I have never gone on them, and I would never go on them. And particularly because things like this, ghosting or this, like being judged, you know, very primarily on what you look like, I just can't see how that's ever going to make you feel good about yourself. Particularly for women, I think, because. Or particularly for people who are actually looking for something serious. Because I get the feeling that there's a lot of people on there that are.

Yeah, I would say most people, like my age, millennial, Gen Z, a lot of them are just using it to hook up, maybe. I've heard the most successful people on dating apps and websites are the 50 plus crowd. Because they're intentional about using it. Yeah, they're like Golden Bachelor. Yeah. Like, they're having a lot of success on there because it's like they're not putting these filtered photos of themselves and only their best and playing hard to get and playing these games. They're just like, this is what I'm looking for. This is who I am. Here are my weaknesses. Like, do you want to go on a real date with me? And there's like, that's the beauty that technology can bring us. But I think just our generation is. It feels almost like an ego hit. I think for a lot of. I think a lot of the men on there are in relationships, actually, a lot of them are, because I've. Sometimes they post their Instagrams and I go on their Instagrams and then they're pictures with their girlfriends. I'm like, does your girlfriend know you're on this app?

I'm so naive. That is just the most shocking thing.

And I think they just do it for, like a vanity thing of, like, who can I match with? Oh, my gosh, it's me. Please can you cut.

Cut this out?

It's crazy. Yeah. And then. And then. Then on top of that, it, like, really messes with your perception of, like. Yeah.

How people.

Humanity. Yeah. Because When I first got on them, you know, you match with someone, and I thought it was like, I'm talking to a person. So I'm like, oh, I'm excited. I matched with someone, we're talking, and then they, like, unmatch you. And I'm like, what did I say? What did I do? And it's like, you never know. Like, you have no idea what their story is.

And it may be just that they met someone.

They met someone. Exactly. But then you have your own story. But then what happens is then you stop getting excited, and you stop getting excited. You stop getting excited, and then you reach this point that you're on this app. You feel nothing.

So let me tell you how that works. So at first, obviously, you get a dopamine hit because it's a reward. But then, like, with any addiction or substance that you become tolerant to, you need more of it to get the same reward. So then it starts. Starts becoming, like, just less. And then when your dopamine receptors become so oversaturated by having had that reward and then not getting the more that it needs, it actually leads. It can lead to depression, but at minimum, it leads to just feeling very disappointed in life and the risk of that happening. For me, like, my brain is the thing that I make. You know, I wake up thinking about first thing in the morning, and I do my gratitude on my silk pillowcase, like, because I want to put my brain into oxytocin from, like, first thing in the morning. And I make all of my food choices based on my brain. And I can be a bit, like, blunt like this. The other day, someone was like, oh, you know, this is the way that Tara talks. But they were saying about their phone and social media and how addictive it is and how much time it wastes. And I said, hang on, guys. This isn't the fault of your phone. This is your fault. So the thought of actually engaging with an app that's going to make me feel depressed and disappointed in life, it just seems like I wouldn't. I can't see why I would do that. Yeah, I can't see what the actual reward would be. I mean, I guess people will say, oh, the actual reward is you could meet someone that you could marry. But how many, you know, how many frogs are you going to have to kiss before you find a prince? That it's actually worth it.

Yeah. And what is it doing to you in the interim?

Yeah.

And changing your perception. I feel with dating, it's all of these, like, false starts. Like, you're excited and then not. And so you have to just have no expectations. But then to have no expectations, it's almost like then you can't even let yourself feel any butterflies or anything because you're so afraid. Because it's happened so many times that it doesn't go anywhere. And that's why I honestly just feel like dating is maybe unnatural.

You mean updating?

Yeah. Or just in general of. Just like throughout history, I don't think we've ever like gone on a hundred first dates, you know, and. But it almost feels like now it is this, like you gotta kiss a hundred frogs or whatever. And I don't. And I don't feel. I don't even. I don't do that at all. Because first of all, who has the time? But second of all, it's like.

Yeah.

Like to get your hopes up and then down. Hopes up, down. Like, I'm curious.

Like.

Like now. Especially with your background in manifestation as well.

Yeah.

What have you seen actually helps people get into healthy relationships. Like, do you suggest making a vision board, writing down their qualities, how you feel around them, or just be open to who shows up in your life. Maybe it's a friend that it turns into something else.

Yeah, I mean, kind of all of the above. So, you know, I'm a big proponent of vision boards, but actually personally, for relationships I prefer to write a list.

List because what's on the list?

So my list has always been very values based. You know, it's sort of. So I have a particular neuroscience quirk which is like, must be at least bilingual. And it's not just really doesn't matter what language it is. It's because it. What. It's what it tells me about the brain of the person. You know, things like socially aware but not too political, loves to travel, loves the arts and culture, always has my back. You know, I mean, I'm very old fashioned, so those sorts of things. Yeah. Thank you.

I speak four languages, by the way. No, I'm kidding me. Just flirting with Tara the whole time.

So many women at the moment. Something going on? I think it's just the boy. Where was I? So the list. But the thing about the list is we're all so, so good at saying this is what I want. This is that like the high expectations that I have, have. Do you ever look at your own list and ask if you meet those criteria? Like if I look at my list, apart from tall, I meet all the criteria on my list. So I think thinking about what you have to offer is equally important because it can't all be like a one way channel of this is what I'm expecting from a person. Put yourself in their brain as well. What are they going to be thinking and feeling when they meet you? Do you want them to think, Think this is someone who's like got a really strong idea of what they want and they're going for what they want and they're not really thinking about what I want. How's that going to make someone soften their heart towards you? Do you know what I mean? So where you've said that somebody on the other end of the app could feel like you're not a person. So if they, you know, if for whatever reason they've got, they suddenly just unmatch you. Don't do that to someone else, us. So I think really, you know, leading your life in the way that you would like to be treated is a very good start. And you know, when I was like in my 20s, we met people in bars. I mean I would, I wouldn't advocate doing that now. I don't think it's very safe. But you know, mostly we met people through our studies, through work, through our friends. I still think that that can happen for people.

Yeah, yeah, it's rare. I was walking my dog late at night, this is a few weeks ago and this like 25 year old kid, I'm 33, he starts like talking to me and he's like flirting with me. I'm like I'm way older than you but I appreciate you. And he's like it's my life dream to meet someone in real life. And I'm like how cute. Like the little Gen Z are like they've never done that before. I'm like that is so crazy that he's. And then he, and then I was giving him advice on how I was like, look, maybe go somewhere you have something in common with. I was like if you want to see the baddies go to the Pilates studios as they're all the great fitness girl. But I'm like at the street, someone just walking their dog, you haven't even made eye contact with them. Like that's just not really how you do it. He didn't know.

Why don't you take him as your wingman and like go and do some activities together.

I feel like a 25 year old boy can't be my wingman to find.

The kind of guy your limits are.

Like is this your little brother with you?

You know, know.

But I did give him advice and then I tried to connect him with my personal assistant because she's 24. I thought they would be a good couple, but she said no.

Oh.

So I'm sorry if you're listening to this.

So that's lovely. You tried, you tried.

I tried. And I. And I wanted to reward him. I was like, it is amazing that I'm really proud of you for, like, going up to someone, but I was, like, trying to show him. I'm like, yeah, like, maybe, like, stretch hard conversation before or something. It was just like, very much just like, you, will you go on a date with me? I was like, this is interesting. But, yeah, it's like back in the day, if you met someone on an online app, it was like, that's so dangerous. And you even just said, I won't. Don't suggest meeting at a bar. It's dangerous.

I wouldn't, as a woman, go on your own.

Yeah, for sure.

Maybe if you went with someone. But I feel like now that just makes me think of, like, you know, sex in the city, where women, like, go out hunting in packs. I don't think that's very attractive for men either.

So that's the hard thing because, you know, so me and some of my girlfriends, we went out to Hollywood. We got all dressed up, and not one guy came up to us. And then after, I was like, you know what? It's probably eight girls sitting at a table. Like, why would a guy come up to us? That's the most intimidating thing. Like, shoot his shot and then, like, be in our group text after. Like, that's the guy's nightmare. But then we're like, so then what do you do? Just go by yourself? That doesn't sound fun. So what we've come to is read a book at a coffee shop.

Okay, okay, that sounds good.

But it's hard because it's like, I see why people go to the dating apps, because it's like, who has time to just, like, sit around and read and, like, hope someone's going to appear today? You know, like, that feels like we're trying to control still.

Well, I think maybe putting some intention behind it. So I know that, you know, you've. You've come up with that as a really potentially good idea of a way that you could meet someone. And I think it is a good idea. But if you have to limit the time because you've got other stuff to do. The brain loves intention. There's a big difference in the brain between skipping meals because you're busy versus doing Time restricted eating. There's a big difference between your mind, you know, just like drifting off into daydreams or you actually taking the time to do mind wandering activities to kind of like open up possibilities in your mind for your, your business or your love life. So maybe picking sometime in the week that is for that and putting a real intention behind it, you know, maybe doing like a beautiful heart opening meditation or something, you know, wearing like pink underwear so you know, you've got the heart chakra colors going on secretly, but it's not too obvious, you know, just whatever it means to you. That's. I think that's. That sounds doable, doesn't it? And it sounds more intentional and it's not. Because what you don't want to do is sit there thinking, you know, how many hours am I supposed to sit here reading this book for? Say I'm going to pick this book that I'm really interested in. I'm going to read three chapters and I'm going to go to this place and my heart's really open. I would love to see people try that and just see what happens.

Yeah, yeah. I think giving yourself a moment in the. That it's not you unconsciously doing it, but consciously doing it. I think that's because sometimes we unconsciously go into the fantasy, right. Of like, oh, I met this person, I barely know him, but like, here's what our life could look like.

Yeah.

And then we're setting that expectation which leads to inevitable disappointment. But instead being like, I'm gonna take 20 minutes to feel how I want to feel in this relationship. Okay, but is it okay to use a person as an example or should you just stick to. Because let's say you met someone but then, and that person's making you feel that way, but then you're starting to project the, that, that fantasy on this person and it may not be that person.

Let me just get this really clear. So let's say you've got like a celebrity that you find very attractive.

No, no. Let's say you started dating someone, okay. And, and you feel how you would want to feel with them, but it's still early on. So you don't want to be like maybe pressuring, like, oh my God, this is, this is him, you know?

Yeah. No, you shouldn't do that. Yeah, no, I think it's about being very present. So I think there's a. Of lot. What we've talked about has covered a lot of reasons from the past that would prevent you having your heart open. Let's you know, try to release that in healthy ways as much as possible. Pressure for the future about, is this going to be marriage? Is it going to be kids? Is it, you know, going to last forever? Stressing over those things doesn't change anything. So I think being really present is very attractive. But obviously with like, like the idea that you are conscious of how much you put in unless you think the person is meeting you, you know, at a level where this is likely to move forward in the way that you would want it to.

So do you feel that as you're dating someone to con, so continue to just focus on, I want this love and I'm open to whoever it is or just kind of. And I'm also curious, do you think that we should simultaneously be dating different people?

See, that's a very us thing. That's not a UK thing. Oh yeah, because. And that's changing in the UK now. But I mean, I remember when we were young just being shocked that people in the US multiple dated.

They advise you to do this. I'm like, I'm incapable.

Culturally, we. That's not really, like, doesn't fit for us.

But they say it's, it's a good way of not pedestaling one person and not getting attached to them by having your different options going at the same time. Don't commit to any until they have basically given you a ring. That's the common dating advice right now.

So you can go as far as getting to the point that you would get engaged to someone and you're seeing other people.

They say that legally, until you're married on your papers, it's single, so you're single.

But I would, I mean, I know.

It'S like a really. Exactly.

The thing is, for that to be true, I would have to be okay with someone doing that. That to me. And I like, they say assume that.

They'Re doing that too.

No, I, I know. That's horrible.

Yeah. But okay, so let's say it's before a relationship, you're just dating if you're.

If you're dating if. Yeah, I don't think there's anything. And I say this to my younger friends, like, instead of thinking like, the next person I meet is going to be the one forever, just meet some people. Just go for coffee. Like, I wouldn't even like kiss them. Just, just get to know different people. See, you know, whether you like how you feel when you're with an extrovert or an introvert or how serious somebody says they are about wanting Some a relationship versus not. Or people from, like, a really different industry to you or a different culture to you. I think gathering data around that is fine, but as soon as it's getting into, like, the second or third date with someone, I. I can't see how it's. It wouldn't be in an alignment with my integrity for that to be happening with several people.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's coming from a place of fear, a place of people feeling disappointed and putting their eggs in one basket and not wanting to be in that situation again. So they're like, well, let me just. If I have multiple plates spinning, then even if one falls, I'll have these other ones. But it's still us not opening our hearts.

Yeah. I think you've put that really beautifully. And I think. Think that I just feel like, how much can you really be liking all of these people at the same time?

Yeah. I'm like, how do you guys find multiple people you like at once? I'm like, for me, one a year, I'm amazed, you know, But I think it's. People just have pretty low standards, I guess. It's just. They just want company, and it doesn't really maybe matter as much.

Yeah. And I think sometimes even just having multiple people to text is kind of. Of. That takes up your time and it makes you feel less lonely, I think. Yeah, I think you're right. There's a lot of sad stuff behind perpetuating this behavior.

Yeah. And I think it comes back to how individualistic we are in our society, that we're alone all the time, we're working at home or by ourselves. Exactly. So we just want connection. And then often that one person can't, especially early on in a relationship, give you all of that connection. So then you're like, let me try to satiate what I would have gotten from one really fulfilling relationship with all five of these, like, half relationships. And it doesn't do the same thing.

No. Yeah. And I think that's from, like, the point of view of the person that's dating. But what about the fact that you know that each of those people are also doing that so that you could get dropped at any point?

And I think that it's almost like you're assuming that that can happen too. So everyone is just, like, on guard, knowing that at any moment they could get kicked off the team?

And does it actually hurt?

They even say, roster. It's called the roster. You. Everyone must have a roster. They say, oh, my gosh.

But let's say let's say you were messaging with like four guys. Yeah. If one of them ghosted you, would it. Would it not hurt? Would it still not hurt?

Well, I think most girls have their like highest priority guy, but he's often the one that's the emotionally unavailable one. And then you have your backup ones pretty much. That's what I've seen across the board. So. So yes. It's like when the emotionally unavailable one is not there, you go to the other ones. But if he were to choose you, you would drop the other ones.

Yeah. I mean, I just think that by speaking this out loud we've kind of.

I'm telling it as it is.

Yeah. Anymore. This just doesn't feel right.

Exactly. And I think it's something in the brain of, you know, if someone doesn't have time for me, that must mean they're more important, they're above me hierarchically. And so then you're kind of. So is there something like how can we heal from being attracted to emotionally unavailable people?

Yes. I think that comes back to your self worth and your boundaries. So if this is going on, there's absolutely. I can't see any. That any effort in trying to change those other people would give you any fruition. But all the effort you can put into having your own set of boundaries around your self work is going to give you a lot of, you know, opportunities.

Yeah. A good, like reframe that I, I saw someone share is let someone's in availability or lack of response give you the ick rather than making you lean in.

Totally.

So it's like for most of us, it's like, oh my God, he's not responding. Let me check his stories. Let me check who he's following. Yeah, I'm gonna get him. You know, even if it's like, or, or like being like really angry about it, but you're still charged around it.

Yeah.

But instead just being like, oh, it's actually a turn off off. And to actually then if he does ghost you for a few days and come back, instead of being like, where have you been? Or leaning in just to be like, actually, because I haven't heard from you all week, I actually moved on. But I wish you the best and to like speak that out loud, that it is a turn off for me to not hear from you. And that might be good feedback for someone as well.

And because I don't believe that all men are out there just trying to do that all the time, it might actually make him think, well, this is a woman I'd actually really like to be with. Like I'm sitting here thinking I've now found out that you speak four languages. If I was a guy, I'd want, I'd absolutely want to meet someone with your values because I feel like I know you'd be loyal to me.

Absolutely. So yeah, I feel this is a huge renaissance in relationships and understanding these, these different, like subconscious programmings that were really playing out. I feel like relationships are such a playground for it that we can like really see ourselves being mirrored in all these different, different situations. So.

And I think what I would want, you know, your listeners to really kind of just to sleep on this and reflect on this. But you don't have to play that game. This is something that is a man made construct. That is not love. Yeah. So yeah, let's spread the love revolution.

And because, because the moment you stop playing that game, they'll lose interest. Like if they were only interested in you when you are unavailable for them, then guess what? The moment that what you, if you want a relationship and you're not texting them back and that's making them interested, well, the moment you start to text them back to have the relationship, they'll just go to the next conquest. So it's like this self, it's like almost like we're valuing attention over relationship.

And I think the energetics of this is important because if you're playing games then you might be acting like you're unavailable, but you actually want, you know, more than what you're getting. And I, I do believe that people, they feel the energetics. So ask yourself if you're really available or not and if you are, be available. And if they don't respond in an appropriate way, move on. You know, I often say like fail fast and often be your highest self. Give this rep, this relationship an opportunity. And if it's not mutual, it was never going to be.

Absolutely. Because what you end up with is the dynamics of the relationship. You know, it's not about who that person is, it's the dynamics that you have. And I think that, yeah, I understand it's so much easier said than done to move on. But it's like, but then you'll just gonna be stuck playing out that dynamic again and again and again. And that's the quality of your relationship. Okay, is there last question. Is there any science to they say be with a man that loves you more than you love him?

Again, I have had aunties that advised, advised me of this and I have some friends in very successful relationships where I see that. And actually, the husband is my friend, so it's not like I have an agenda for it to be like, you know, that the other way around. I think this. I don't know what the science is, but I have seen that as a good thing. Yeah. Not too mismatched, but a little bit like the left and right hemispheres of the brain. You know, one is slightly bigger than the other. And I think. I think that creates the best integration, let's say, probably just because of the way that we are wired, because of our hormones. So the way that testosterone does make you more competitive than bonded and oxytocin makes you more bonded. That's from millennia ago. But there are still some repercussions of that in modern society. So if the man is more bonded, I think it just makes it more equal. Yeah, Yeah.

I feel like. Because a lot of. Of the core feminine wound is to be desired. So to have someone that's really actively, like, pursuing you and seeing you like the goddess is so deeply wanted, and I. And I feel like men, they also biologically are like the hunters. So it's like, to continue that. Continue that Chase. There's this theory right now. They say on TikTok that in every relationship, there's the black cat and the golden retriever.

Oh, I love that.

So, yeah. So the black cat is like the little bit more aloof one. Yeah. The one that. That you. They don't want to leave the relationship, but they could be okay. And the golden retriever is the one, like, leaning in. Or I'm sure you've seen, they look at celebrity pictures. Who's the person who's leaning in? Have you seen that?

So I don't really look at things.

Yeah. Well, I'll let you know what's happening on TikTok. But in the picture, they would look at who's leaning in, and that is often the golden retriever person, because they're literally leaning towards that person's frame. And then the person who's in their own is like, this is who I am.

Black cat. Yeah. Wow. I love that.

Yeah. And it's again, like, take it all with a grain of salt. Like, we don't want to. Being a black cat will not make someone become a golden retriever for you. It's like, you have to. You probably cycles. Yeah.

I could be a black cat in one relationship and a golden retriever in another.

Yeah.

And let's say we were in a relationship then sometimes I could be the black cat and Sometimes you could be totally.

I think there's definitely phases. But what I've seen in with my friends who are in like very successful long term relationships, it almost feels like the man just like saw them and just like knew and chose them. And there's almost nothing you can really do to make that happen. And it's never the relationships that you're like confused. Does he like me? This and that? It's, it's never those. It's always like he was just. And it often took him time to get her to see it.

Totally. Yeah. And, and I, I'll tell you what you can do to make that happen is not be looking for something that's always when it happens.

So just like, you know, they always say it happens when you least expect it. And here's where I get confused is like in life I feel like if I want to get healthier, I need to focus on health. If I want to start a business, focus on business. In love though, I'm like, I don't think it works that way but it does.

If you are sleeping right, eating right, doing gentle exercise, meditating, managing your stress levels, being a loving friend, being a loving daughter, that's all creating the energy of your highest self and your heart chakra. That's what those men notice when they see you and they just notice know.

So yeah like focusing on the love in terms of the self love but rather than focusing on let me date as many people get to know as many, like how much energy should we be actually focused on finding a partner versus I'm not looking for a partner because that's telling the universe that I'm ready for it. Do you know what I mean?

I think it's a balance and I think there are times. So you know how we said that sometimes when people feel their worst they go and like say they match people on the apps. I think only to be be dating or going on the apps. When you're really feeling super confident, like things are going so well at work, you've got your self esteem from somewhere else at the moment when maybe you're not feeling so much like that, then just give as much love and gratitude as you can to the people that you know you who really have your back and then you might get seen. So I would judge it by your own energy and like protect yourself and let someone come and claim you when you know you're not sort of like really willing to put it out there. But you, but you can have love in your life, you know, with your pet Your little dog and your family and your friends. And then when you're feeling, like, really great, just go out there and gather some data. Don't think it means that you're necessarily, like, desperately trying to find the one. Just go and meet people and see what's out there and how they're treating you. And.

Yeah, Yeah. I have have three different friends that went on these, like, dating experience where they dated literally a hundred guys, I want to say, in a year.

Wow. Yeah.

For two of them, the person that they ended up marrying was someone that was like a friend or a mutual friend. It wasn't someone from the experiment. For one of them, though, it ended up being someone from the experiment, you know, so. But she's a very analytical person, so I feel like that strategy worked for her. Yeah, for me, I'm. I'm a lover girl. I'm like, it needs to be a love story, and I got to share it on the podcast one day, so it's got to be good. But. But then it's like that. I can so understand that. Like, then you feel like you're not taking any action. Right. But the action is sometimes, like, how you talk about with manifestation is it's to be in the vibration.

Yes. Yeah.

Well, thank you so much for sharing all your wisdom. I could talk to you for hours. And where can people get your book and just learn from you further?

Well, I'm most active on Instagram, Dr. Tara Swart, and my book is called Course. The US version has the strap line the Secrets of the Universe, Science of the Brain.

Oh, perfect. We'll have that linked in the show notes. Well, thank you so much for tuning in. There is so much goodness in this conversation. I know if you're definitely a single girl, you were, like, nodding along to. To everything. And I'm sure that this brought you more awareness, more understanding of what's actually happening so you feel less alone. So share this on your Instagram stories. Share with your friend. This is a really good conversation to like, maybe do a little podcast club around, talk about what showed up for you, what you felt, what was inspiring for you. Tag us in your got our Instagrams listed below and be sure to subscribe to this podcast for more conversations like this. I'll see you in the next one. Trust your intuition. Trust your inner wisdom. Trust your inner guidance. Close your eyes and listen. So trust your intuition. Trust your inner wisdom. Trust your inner guidance.