Episode One with Julia Gibson (Elder Gifts, the Canadian Flag, the White Bubble, Rent a Feather a...

Hello, you absolutely amazing person, you. It's Sandy Boucher here once again. I'm recording this on July 1st and Julia Gibson and I just finished our public Zoom event where we discussed our relationship and journey together. It was almost five years ago when Julia reached out to me about her book Copper Magic. She had received some backlash from the indigenous community. There were things in the book they considered problematic and she wanted to work with me to see if we could save the book. This Zoom meeting that you're about to see, that's what I'm releasing today. The discussion is the most perfect example of humility, of reconciliation in so many different forums. And it's just a hint of the amazing journey Julia and I have gone on and, and the opportunity for the relationship that you could go on if you choose to take that journey. So let's talk about it. You're on mute, hun.

Hi, sweetie. I just thought I'd try it to get in early and.

Oh my God, look at that space you're in. That is heaven.

It's Blue Lake. I'm in Blue Lakeland.

It's like a cabin surrounded by books. You just described my heaven.

There's so many books. Oh, hello. You look fantastic. Is everybody healthy? Is everyone, is everyone back to normal health wise?

Good. Yeah, yeah. So just enjoying the summer now. The craziness of the birthdays behind us. So now. Oh God. Enjoyed the summer.

So yeah, yay.

Small report. The physical book is still not ready. There's been like several technical lags, but the ebook is up. So I thought I could put the link in the chat 100%. Okay, I'm gonna do that right now.

Okay. I wouldn't do it now.

Oh, okay.

Because the way Zoom works is they don't see anything until after they join. Oh, okay. Anything that's posted before they sign in, they literally don't see. So I have no idea how many people are joining us today.

You have no. What is.

I have no idea how many people are joining us.

Okay.

I had about maybe six, eight people email for the link and then at 11 o' clock this morning I just sent the link to my entire list and posted it on LinkedIn.

So, ooh la la.

They can join and I wouldn't know that they're going to. So hopefully we get. I know. Well, Sue, I think was in the YouTube. Right? Sue Methune, Yes.

Sue said you knew her. Sort of. Or had.

Yeah. And she messaged this morning. I need that link. So I would bet my last buck sue was going to be Here, she's, she's a die hard supporter, so that's awesome. Oh, I love that. Yeah. So now I do believe. Yeah, this is recording. I have to warn them of that. Well, they'll be notified of that when they come in because I do want to release it as a YouTube video.

So groovy.

Cool, cool, cool.

Indeed.

Indeed. Indeed.

I'll tell you one thing about up here. It's so humid. I'm not used to that.

Ah, ah, yeah, yeah. We don't do humidity either. Even though we're sitting on the shore of Lake Superior, we really don't do humidity. But then when I go to southern Ontario and you're surrounded by the lakes.

Yeah, that's right. Because we're between two lakes.

Yeah.

But the breeze comes. I mean, it doesn't last because the breeze comes through, you know, it's very, it's very breezy.

Yeah.

So that's.

I turned on my air conditioning today. I was like, oh my God, July 1st, we're having like our first summer day. It's got to be like 28, 30. I looked, it's like 26, which is like 78. 76. So it's not so terrible. Could be worse. Got a grip now. Indeed. Oh my God. That's really not that bad.

So yeah, it's like whatever.

Exactly.

Yeah. So unreal. Cool, cool.

What else is going on? You're doing a million things.

Lots of things. So yeah, just a lot of things in the works. This year is the year of partnership for sure. So I'm actually going to be heading up an indigenous women's entrepreneurship mastermind.

Ooh.

My girlfriend owns like a women's mastermind network and now there's these, all of these mastermind groups inside it and she approached me to run an indigenous one.

Oh my God, that's so cool.

Absolutely amazing. And actually, correction, I'm going to be running two masterminds because one will be for brand new entrepreneurs and the other one will be for established. Oh, here comes Jennifer. Jennifer is one of my. And Nellie signed in earlier, but she's back. Jennifer is one of my die hard supporter fans. She emails me all the time. We chat back and forth, which is amazing. And.

Hi, Jennifer. Jennifer is muted.

There she is. She's.

Hello.

You're adorable, Jennifer. Oh my God. And Nelly signed in earlier. Nellie, where are you from? I don't know.

She.

You can either use chat or turn your microphone on, whichever you prefer. The only reason I'm asking, I'm not sure it's Nelly. I got an email from someone last night. You're gonna love this. Julia in Russia.

Oh, who my goodness.

Wanted the link and wanted to join us and I was like, yes, amazing.

So I wonder what time it is there. Oh, it's probably late afternoon or early evening or something.

Yes, that was me. It is Nelly. Okay, I thought so. Oh my God, Nelly, what time is it for you? I think it's like six hours difference. So it might be like 6, 6, 7pm okay. Amazing. Welcome. Jennifer, how are you doing?

Me? I'm doing okay.

Awesome. You look amazing. I finally get to see your face.

Put my suspenders on.

Yeah, I love your suspenders. Yeah, Jennifer and I talk almost daily by so it's amazing and awesome.

I drew Sandy and her tattoo.

Yes, she drew me a picture. I have it framed here somewhere. I can't remember.

Oh my goodness.

Yeah, yeah, I love art.

Yeah, it's one of my.

Jennifer, do you always wear suspenders or is there a special reason?

No, I'm only wearing them because the pants I'm wearing are too big.

I have suspenders for the exact same reason.

Yes. Yeah, many of my pants fit me but some of them I've lost a little weight so I've got to wear the suspenders otherwise.

Yeah, yeah, that could be bad.

Yeah, yeah. I have a pair of pants I absolutely love but I don't find it particularly attractive when you're out doing running around that you're constantly hiking up your pants. So I got the suspenders for that reason I wear it, they're under like my vest so you would never know. But yeah, yeah, the fight is real.

7:00Pm Nelly says yes.

Yes.

We were close.

Yeah.

Welcome Nelly.

You're welcome.

Awesome. Awesome. So we're still early. We still got a couple more minutes. Oh Nelly, you are a sweetheart. Nelly, can I ask how you found out about this zoom? Like do you follow my YouTube channel, my Facebook page? Are you one of Julia's biggest fans? Like how did you find out about us in this chat?

She's thinking.

Yeah, I watched your channel. Ah, thank you.

Oh excellent.

Yeah. That is so awesome. I love it. I love. Well this is working way better than that YouTube live attempt.

You know you have to experiment with technology. You never know what it can offer or what its limitations are till you try.

Yes. Julia, I realize you are on vacay now but.

Well, semi.

Yes, semi. How busy are you right after this event? Not okay because I want to try and experiment. I found another program to do a live and I found how I invite people so we could go on and just talk about this zoom for a couple minutes, if you don't mind.

Excellent.

Just to see how it works. Love it. Awesome. Awesome. Julia. So see how easy it is to work with Julia, people. This is why we were able to work together for so long. She just goes along with my crazy ideas.

Well, I would say Sandy has not crazy ideas, but sometimes bold. Sometimes bold, you know, and. And challenging in a good way. Yep, that's what I would say. Very forward thinker.

Yeah.

And very creative thinker, which is really, really up my alley. And yes, I like. I like to be with people who are like that and aren't kind of stuck in a rut. You know, you don't. You're not stuck in a. In any kind of. You're very fluid in the way you think about stuff.

100 free thinker. Hundred percent. What is it?

I made it.

Oh.

Oh, that's a trans niece. So I made it for her.

Oh, that is. So I made her a rainbow necklace.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are the. What are the beads?

They're all either glass or plastic.

Yeah, there are.

They're glass or plastic. And I put them together in a pattern I felt was a good rainbow. So they've got stars in. They've got. Yeah. All these different things in there. And the center bead is ceramic so that she can feel pretty in it because she started life as my nephew and now she's my niece. So I'm telling her, hey, I'm okay with that. So I made her.

So that is fantastic. Yeah.

Yeah.

So when will you give it to her?

July 20th. We're getting together because back in April. Sandy knows this. I lost my sister back in April.

Oh, sorry.

Cancer. And she fought eight years, and that was a long time, but her body said, no, I'm tired. And it was a shock because we did not want to lose her. But we're having a celebration of life for her in July, and we're all going to get together. So I'm making these different things for all my nieces and nephews. And I've made them bracelets, man bracelets, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, that's what I do. It's my creative outlet.

How many nieces and nephews are there?

Five.

Yeah, that's a lot to take. Hi, Sue.

And here's Sue.

Sandy. I hear you all the time, and I never get to. You never get to hear my voice. So I am thrilled to be.

And I see your face, and this is absolutely amazing. And you know what? When Jennifer Was talking. People comment all the time. Like, Sandy, like, you love your life and you're so happy all the time. Like, why have you seen the world? And it's literally because of this. I am surrounded by the most amazing people, like Jennifer talking about that inclusivity and making those gifts. And, sue, you're, like, one of my biggest supporters. I absolutely adore you. So it's like, how can I not be?

If I lived in Thunder Bay, I would be coming for tea. So this is as close as we can get.

Amazing. Amazing. Remind me, sue, where are you?

I'm in Airdrie, Alberta, which is just north of Calvary. So, okay, heading into cowboy time for us Stampede and all that stuff. So today I'm going to a multicultural event wearing my jean shirt because that's what we do here.

Is awesome. I love it.

What are the. What are the cultures that are being represented?

Oh, my goodness. Our town. Well, it has a small town feel, but it feels. It is city. It's like 80,000. But we have really embraced the mirror here, is really embraced multicultural. We worked really hard on it. I'm on the board of the Circle Connections for Reconciliation, and we're supported by the city. So we have so many different nationalities here. Used to be, I'd say five or 10 years ago, we would walk, go for a walk, and all you would see was white person. Now you see so many different nationalities. It's so amazing. And they. Last year, they started it on July 1 for the first time. And it's respectable with all kinds of performances. Booth of every. You know, from Africa, from Mexico, from all over. It's truly amazing. I was blown away that our little city did this last year. And this year is supposed to be even bigger and better. And I don't. I feel uncomfortable celebrating like, rah Rah Canada because of all the work I do. But this feels good. This feels like I can. You know what? This is good. They have indigenous performances there. They've invited us. But the indigenous people in our group don't feel comfortable being in a multicultural. And I follow their lead. So, you know, but they don't have a problem with me going to it. They just don't want to be in it.

So it's one of the reasons I chose today when we decided to do a zoom event, because, well, I don't particularly celebrate Canada today, Canada Day, which, fine, whatever. If you do, that's your path, your choice. But I thought this was the perfect thing to do on Canada Day because these conversations need to be part of Canada and need to be part of what we're proud of about Canada. So to me, the timing just seemed perfect. So Sue's in Alberta. I'm in Northern Ontario in Thunder Bay. Nellie's in Russia. Jennifer, remind me where you are.

Toronto.

Toronto. Okay, so we're both in Ontario. And Julia, tell them where you are.

I'm in the United States and I'm in the place that is the fictional version of the book that Sandy and I worked on together. Yeah. So I'm there and I. I just got here a couple days ago. But just to piggyback on the conversation about relating to Canada, I mean, here we have the Fourth of July, which is soon. Right. And I have the same feeling about it, but because of where our government is right now, I and a lot of other people feel like it's okay to be patriotic. It's okay to take. Like, we get to be American. We are Americans. You, you know, they don't get to take our country away from us and they don't get to take our joy away from us. So a lot more people, including me, I mean, I grew up in the Vietnam era, where waving the American flag was like, you know, dicey. You know, you didn't want to be associated with it. And I felt that way for many years. But, you know, when Trump came into power the first time, I thought, you know, I'm going to wave a flag.

Yeah.

And a lot of other people have felt that way, too. Like, you know, they don't get to have the flag. This is our country. This is our country. That's their country, everybody's country.

Two things. I think it's different for us. I know it's different for me because one, indigenous people never got to be part of Canada. We were moved out of the way so Canada could happen. Right. So it's not about, you can't take it away from me. They tried a long time ago and they still insist that they did. So there's that. And in Canada right now, the people that fly Canadian flags tend to be the problematic people. These are the anti vaxxers. These are the, you know, our version of, like, Trump Light kind of thing. So. Yeah. And you know what? Honestly, like, I'm 61 years old. If someone had told me years ago, like, when I was a teenager, that there would be a point in time where seeing a Canadian flag made me, like, recoil and be nervous, I would have said they were nuts. Like, because flying a flag has never been a big thing in Canada. I know when the state Go across the border and every house has one. And I always thought that was kind of cool. But now to see them, like they're on the back of pickup trucks. Right.

People wear them in T shirts.

Right.

It's a funny thing. Yeah. So in indigenous communities and gatherings and stuff in Canada, do people fly the Canadian flag or not? Because here they do indigenous. I mean, if you go to a powwow or something, people are very proud to have been veterans and so forth.

Yeah. So we have the flag song. There's like four different songs that start every one of our Anishinaabe powwows. I can only speak for mine, but. And we bring in the flags, but it's going to be the Canadian flag. It's going to be the American flag because there's J treaty. We don't recognize that border. It's going to be the first nation flag. It might be the assembly of first nations flag. So all on equal ground.

Right?

Right. So yes. Honored. Yes included. I actually saw a clip on Facebook which I thought was like the best thing I've ever seen because like, everyone knows I've done videos on Pretendians and descendants and people pretending to be indigenous. It was actually. I can't remember the location of the powwow, but every song is like for. It might just be get out and dance for the fun of it or it might be a healing song. Like every song has a reason to it. And this song was specifically for all the non indigenous people. Get out and dance. And I thought that is the best thing I've ever heard. And the woman who shared it said, like, look, here's your chance. You don't have to be pretend to be us to be able to celebrate with us, to enjoy the strength of our traditions and everything. You can actually just be an ally and stand next to us and have fun. Right. Like you don't. I had this discussion the other day and I don't know what the feeling is in the room, but up until now, and it might be because of the work I do, but it always seems like not always, but like 85% of the time, the people that declare themselves as allies, and that's another conversation, whether they should do that or not. But they always claim some percent Indigenous.

Oh dear.

And that. And I mean, that's fine, right? Like if you have an ancestor way back when, I'm not saying deny your ancestry, but if the only people we can count on, on allies have to have some indigenous ancestry, we're in trouble. Like to me, I take so much Joy in someone who has nothing to do with indigenous culture. No ancestry whatsoever. But I want to be your ally and I want to be your friend and I want to support you in the same way with Jennifer and making that necklace for her niece. It's like this is not my path, but I fully support yours. And up until now I'm still not seeing that. I'm still seeing. I don't know if they're nervous and think they have to have some blood quantum to be able to show up. I don't know what it is. But stop that. For anyone watching this, stop that.

Well, I have zero individuals.

Zero. Yeah. And like who cares? I always say coat of many colors, field of wildflowers, we're all different. And that's exciting. That's not a threat. One of the questions I get asked in seminar all the time, which again is a little problematic, but that's another conversation. They always ask how can I encourage indigenous people to be more. To take more pride in their culture.

Which is being asked by non indigenous people.

Yeah. So like a little overstepping the feather, wrong side of the feather kind of thing. But my response to them is always the same. Be proud of yours. Tell me you celebrate Christmas but then at the end ask me if I do and be open to hearing what I may or may not do. Tell me you celebrate Easter and all the fun things you do and then ask me if I do that or to ask of some celebration I do that is important to me. Right. Like that's how be proud of who you are because it holds space for me to be proud of who I am. Right. So. So we gathered here today. It's now a wedding ceremony in case you didn't.

Ok.

I didn't tell that in the invite.

No.

We're here to discuss Julia and I's amazing journey from my perspective. And Julia, I don't know about you, but way back when when you first emailed me and we figured it out, it's like four or five years ago now, I had no idea the journey we were about to go on. Like I had no idea the twists and turns or the time that we would put in or the friendship we would develop. The amazing mind expanding conversations we've had. Sue and Jennifer, did you have a chance to watch kind of like the YouTube live? We haven't really. Did we story? Yeah, I did a video describing our journey and all the different stages to it. So Julia, I guess I'm going to throw it to you. Did you see this coming?

No.

I thought it would be a much more formal relationship than it turned out to be. I thought once you said, yes, I will work with you on this project, I thought, okay, you know, you're going to open my mind and explain to me and help me shape this differently, and it's going to be kind of professional. And it was. I mean, it was a professional relationship, but it really did deepen over time especially. And I really credit that to you because I was shy and very much wanted your approval and wanted you to, you know, to. I don't want to say respect, but I wanted your approval. I wanted. I wanted, you know, I wanted you to like what I was doing and to. And I wanted to please you, but I didn't want to please you at the expense of, you know, capitulating to something I didn't understand. I wanted to understand. But so that, I think, prevented me from feeling closer to you for a while or not, not expecting anything more. I really thought it was going to be. And, you know, that would have been fine. So as things went on and we got to know each other better and you were the one who started using the word friend.

Yeah.

And, you know, which I would not have presumed to say or even think. I think really, even though it felt that way to me, I felt like we started to know each other, about each other's families and, you know, it was. It was more than a sort of cut and dry, okay, here's the next step and, you know, talk to you on Thursday kind of a thing. But. Yeah, no, I didn't expect it to be what it was at all. I just. I didn't know what to expect exactly, but I really thought it would be more like a, you know, just a very sort of formal. And it didn't really even really start out that way because you were so cozy and friendly and funny right from the beginning. So it wasn't what I've worked. Like if I've worked with editors before who are very like. I mean, sometimes they're friendlier and you get to sort of know them, but usually it's just like, okay, page three, blah, blah, blah, and that's it. You know, you're not getting to know each other really on any kind of level that is. I mean, do you think that. Go ahead.

I was just going to say that is so. One, so interesting that you shared that. And two, thank you for sharing that. I think it's happened a few times to me now, so I go into every relationship for one, I don't do professional relationships. We're in a relationship, whether it's a working relationship, a social relationship because indigenous don't tend to compartmentalize. You're going to get all of us, right? So you're going to get my silly side, my formal side by that hurts side, my vulnerability like all of it's coming to the picnic. So but I forget that's not how mainstream focuses or works. So I will send an email. Hey girlfriend, how you doing? You have received those emails, right? And that's a formal business email from my perspective, right? Because I work with people I like. I don't work with people I don't trust or I don't like. So but I forget my perspective from my side of the feather. I also know from experience that it catches many non indigenous people off guard because we will share our trauma, we will share our joy. We're going to talk about our kids and they're thinking we're off guard track from the meeting and we might get called out for that. But actually we're building relationships like it's not about a meeting, it's about a relationship. Right. So interesting. The other thing, I've heard it from a few people now it's still not comfy for me so that's something I'm going to have to sit with for a while. But running into people who want my approval or my for me to say it's okay and my mind instantly goes to why would you care? I'm just Joe Blow over there on the street, whatever and never realizing I'm just not seen that way anymore after all these years of doing this work and I have to do my part to bring that wall down right. Like you don't need my approval, you need your and I love that you were confident enough and strong enough to stay true to your book and not just I'm going to rewrite every word because we know if someone was less confident or less secure they would just do that and I did that for years like that. That's part of being abused and that low self confidence you become who someone else wants you to be. So I'm so glad you didn't do that because and I do have the original book that she sent me. I don't have the new one yet. And we'll talk.

Well I'm gonna let me put in the chat the link to the the ebook is up on Amazon now.

Yeah so the print copy isn't available yet but the E version is and.

If you click on this I think you'll see the the new Cover.

Oh, you know, I have to click on that.

I'm clicking on it now. Yeah.

Okay.

So you'll see the new cover.

Oh, my God.

The new title and everything.

Ah, I love it. I love it.

But let me footnote that approval thing, because for me, with you, it was very much about you being indigenous. So I didn't. It kind of goes hand in hand with not wanting to overstep or sort of knowing my place. I don't know. I don't know a better way to say that, but I didn't.

So.

I didn't. I didn't. I knew I had already messed up by writing the book or in the things I had done in the book I already knew were mistakes. And I wanted to not do that with you. I wanted to not keep. I wanted to open. I wanted to open myself up so that I would be not making those same mistakes or understanding what those mistakes were so that I could not be doing them.

Yeah.

So that's what I mean by approval.

Yeah.

But also because I really. I think that also comes with respect. So I had a lot of respect for you, both because of the work that I knew you had done before I even started working with you, but also, as we went along, the way you worked, I really respected. So on that level, I wanted. You know, I just didn't want to make you mad at me or make you, you know, disappointed in me or whatever, you know, because I was. Because of the respect part of it.

Yeah. And you know what? So everyone listening, because I talk about it all the time. This is such a beautiful example of humility. And I always say, humility builds bridges. You heard her say, I made a mistake. I didn't want to do that. Again, totally. No denying, no defensiveness. Just owning and wanting to move forward. And if she hadn't been willing to do that or she defended every single thing that I said was an issue, we would have had a battle on our hands. Right. And I don't make a. It's a rule of mine that I don't talk to the wall on a regular basis. So if I'm. Someone wants me to work with them, but they can't hear me, I'm not going to invest my time. So Julia may not have understood. Like, she definitely did not make mistakes with intent, and that's why I wanted to work with her. Because people think you need intent to harm people. Well, actually, no, you don'. You can definitely hurt people without ever meaning to. And so I knew there was no ill intent. But when I Pointed things out. I also knew it's back to back teaching. Right. She can't see this, so I have to draw the picture for her of what it looks like from our side of the river. The feather, the coin, whichever metaphor you want to use. And often she was like, whoa, that's nobody, Mantor.

Whoa.

I totally get that now. Like, let's work out a way to stay true to the story, but stay clear of that pitfall. So, yeah.

So what would you have done if I had pushed back and said, like, oh, well, I don't really, you know, I want to keep it that way, you know, or just, what would you have done if I.

The defensiveness.

Yeah.

I would have walked away 100% because. And I run into this. Well, not often, because most of the time, the people in my seminars are the people I want to work with. Right. Like, the problematic people don't come to my seminars. Let's get real. They're nowhere near me. But every now and then, I do get someone who reaches out directly, like you did, wants to work one on one on something. And it's all ego. Right. That defensiveness is, I want to be right, and they're not ready or okay with being wrong. Like, I make mistakes every flipping day. It makes me hilarious. Right? I'm so totally cool with that. So if someone's not ready to hear, then they can't take the next step. And it's like, okay, then, now I'm going to exhaust myself for nothing. And I always say I have all the time and patience in the world for someone who is willing to learn, to walk the path, to grow. But if all you want to do is defend what you've already done, then there's no room here for me. So, Canada, are you listening?

Totally.

I think we talked about this the other day, Sandy, when. So sometimes people come to me with manuscripts or works that they've done and they want some critiquing, and I find out real fast if they actually want critiquing or if they just want, yay, you know, you did this. This is a great achievement. You wrote a novel. Great. Good for you.

Yep. You saved me.

There's no room for me. You're supposedly asking for my professional advice, and if you don't want that, then that's cool, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to give it to you and hearing you say, oh, no, no, no, no, forget it. I don't want to do that. I mean, not that you have to do everything I say, not that you have to agree with me every minute.

Yeah. But you ask why.

I know what you're saying. Why am I going to read your whole book if you really don't want any actual feedback?

So you actually saved me on that. And I think that's another valuable lesson for everyone. I think for the foreseeable future, if not forever, indigenous, non indigenous relationships are going to be nuanced and have to be open communication every step of the way. Like you never get to the point where it's just going to all be automatic. I think there's some things that will become that way. But we were having these discussion because I actually have two manuscripts on my desk right now. And when you shared that, Julia, I was like, oh, crap. I never asked them why they wanted me to look at this. I assumed they wanted my opinion. I can tell you right now, one absolutely does not. It is. And, and this. I don't want to go off on a tangent, but it's become kind of obvious that what this person wants is exposure.

Right?

They want you to turn them on to somebody that can publish their book or something.

Oh no.

The book is published. In this case, what they want me to do is tell my following about it. They want the book review.

Okay.

And I was like, you, why didn't.

They just say that in the first place?

Exactly.

Right. And it's like, no, they desperately want that book review, but they want raw, raw, like I love this book. So that book sales, right? So. And the other one, I was like, okay, by the way, what do you want from me? And it was kind of along the lines of our relationship in that they did want the feedback. Now with you, Julia, I know you reminded me of this. There was a couple things I said were cringe in the first reading in with this manuscript, I can honestly say I stopped at maybe page 10, page 15, not long into it. And I literally sent an email with the subject line, this is too painful. That it was just like, I can't read this. The misinterpretations, the, the. I just can't like that there is so much that has to be unpacked here. That for my mental health and well being, I can't read this yet. Like, you gotta go do some work because like it's almost you before the first book came out, right. If someone had read it at that point and she was hoping to publish this book and it's like, you don't want to do that. Like, like I literally can't even read this at this point. So but you reminded me to ask, like, I just assumed you asked me to do it. You want my opinion, Right? And then I get myself in trouble because. No, they absolutely did not. So.

Well, sometimes they don't know what they want really. But if you ask them, sometimes they can kind of understand.

Isn't she amazing? She's so maybe they don't know. And I'm like, so, Jennifer, did you have any questions about our journey, our relationship, anything?

The only question I have is have you seen what was created about, I think two years ago, where somebody married, as it were, the Canadian flag, as it is, with indigenous symbols in it in the maple leaf components like the whale and all these beautiful symbols. Have you seen it and what do you think of it?

Okay, one, I've seen different versions. I don't think I've seen the one you're talking about. Two, this is kind of silly way of putting it. It would never fly.

That's what I.

Considering we're talking about a flag that's kind of funny only because I saw a version of the Canadian flag a while ago and I forget what they did. I think they tried to put the medicine wheel colors in it.

Yes.

Because that represents all the colors of men. So it's inclusive. And the back, like. Yeah, don't go after the flag. Right. The backlash was absolutely phenomenal. So I think for the people open to reconciliation and inclusion, they think it's an awesome idea. Unfortunately, we're still not the majority, so I think. Yeah, I, Yeah, I'll just either.

So in the US there's really right wing people who have done this flag icon thingy that is black and white. I'm not even, I'm not clear on what it means, but it's, it's not, it's not happy. So I'm wondering if, are there. Are there people in Canada who do things to the. Who change the flag for like a fascist reason or whatever?

I don't think in this case it was, but guaranteed there absolutely is. Like, if we look at it, if I go to my most optimistic side, which I do often, the flag is red and white. That is indigenous and Canadian. Right. So if we were to live up to the flag, right, and the fact that the maple leaf is in the middle, that's Mother Earth. That's the nature, the environment we should be protecting. The. The two strips of red could be the two rows of the wampum belt. Again, we were supposed to be running side by side. So there is so much that could be taken from the actual flag if we didn't just hold it up as some sacred item that must never be discussed. So.

Yeah, unlike the American flag, which. Which symbolizes the colonies. Literally the colonies.

Yeah.

So it's all really. It's really a symbol of, you know, genocide, really, in a way.

Yeah. Yeah.

So it really needs to kind of be dismantled. But I don't know, I don't see that happening anytime soon. But yeah.

And I just realized the white is surrounded by red. That would make a couple people nervous, so. Oh, yeah. It's like, really, guys, be careful. Yeah, So I love that. Jennifer, thank you so much.

Sue, that's a really good question.

Yeah, thank you.

Well, the reason I came today is because, first of all, when you said they may not know, that's 100% true. I'm 66 and until five years ago, I was completely in my white bubble. It's really easy to be a white person and live in a white bubble in this country. Until I got kind of shocked out of it by looking at a map. I was in Quebec City with a girlfriend celebrating 40 years of friendship. And we went into the fort and there was this huge map on the wall that showed North America pre colonization. And it was full. And I stood there like a two by four hit me on the head. I went, we like, whoa, wait a minute. And I realized I didn't know the history of my own country. You know, clearly I didn't pay attention. Well, even history classes in high school for me was about battles and, you know, what Europeans did. So since then I've been educating myself and I, you know, created this circle of indigenous and non indigenous because in my mind I thought if we bring us together in friendship, then that'll change things because I can't do anything nationally, but I can do something in my own town. And so I'm still learning. I learn every time I listen to you, Sandy. Every time our circle gets together, the worldview, having that thought that the worldview is different. Like we're so egocentric that we just think everybody has our worldview and we don't. And even today, you sharing your version of the Canadian flag, I'll never see the flag the same anymore. You know, it's so cool. So I'm always learning too, because sometimes I have the board that we sit on is more indigenous than non indigenous on purpose. They lead, we do everything together. And I still sometimes get criticized and I'm really careful about, you know, am I being humble enough, am I listening enough and not by our group? I don't get criticized by our group, by people outside of our group who are looking in, saying, what is she doing? What is she doing there? So anytime I get the chance to listen to an indigenous and non indigenous working together, I take it because, you know, I want to continue this work. It's really important to me. And I learned so many wonderful things about celebrating and feeling grateful about the earth that I never, like, I just took the earth for granted and I don't anymore. Like, I go out and listen to the trees. First time I heard that, I was like, right, yeah.

Yeah.

So, you know. But it's. It'll be a lifelong journey to understand and to get like 60 years of being in a white bubble, six years of trying to burst it and look on the other side. I still have work to do, and I know that I make mistakes, so. So that's why I'm here. And it's just fantastic. But I do have one question. So I. We have a general email. It's on our website. And sometimes we get requests. There's three different requests we get. One is, we need a land acknowledgement. Can you give me one? So we talk about, well, that's a journey that you have to go on your own. Another one is we need an elder. And it's like Rent an elder God. Oh, my God.

Called Rent a Feather too. Yeah.

So we explain it's about building relationships and, you know, and then the odd time we get someone who says, I've written a book about an indigenous person and I need an indigenous person. I didn't know anybody before now. I at least, like, now I know who a call. But we do sometimes. And we have. We have a Facebook group and we have our Facebook page and we have a group within it called Circle Conversations that anybody can post. So I often say, post in there and see if anybody responds, you know, like, it's a conversation from all of us. So. So all those tricky things to handle all those.

Yeah. And yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna go. I want to go through your questions one by one. So we need the land acknowledgement. Like, my response is always, why? Right. And if they come back with, well, it's part of our indigenous engagement program and we're doing a bunch of little things and blah, blah, blah, then all the power to you. I will fully support you. If they come back with, well, everyone seems to be doing one and we think we should. That's why performative. And it's like, you gotta go find some stuff first. What I would suggest. And you can ask your group if they want to. My set of the three videos on what to do and not do in a land acknowledgment. Just send them those. Like, here's three links. Watch these. You're gonna learn a ton.

Right on your YouTube page.

Yeah, I'll actually. If you email me, I'll Send you video. 1, 2, 3. I do that for a lot of people. So that's the first one. The second one was we need an elder. I think was the second one.

Yeah.

Yeah. So again, my response is, why? Because Julia taught me not to make assumptions. So why? Because again, what I'm trying to figure out, is it performative? Do they need an elder because they want to offer support and guidance and healing opportunity for people they're working with. Okay. That is someone that probably could use an elder. If you just want the traditional open and close and be able to say to people, you had an elder there, then our elders are tired and. And that's not the important work they need to be doing. Right. But I find by putting it back on them, it encourages that reflection. Right. Like, why. Why do you want the elder? Not that I'm saying it's bad. I just. One corner clarity. Right. What was the last one?

Oh, the.

The odd time we do get a. This is more rare. But the odd time we get somebody who said, I'm not indigenous and I'm writing a book and there's a not and there's an indigenous person in it. Do you have someone that can.

Yes. So. And I'm gonna be lightning bold, blunt on this one. And I've had. I had the same attitude, the same opinion for the last decade, and I don't see it changing anytime soon. Rock hard rule. I do not believe non indigenous people should ever write an indigenous character because you do not have the worldview. If you want to write about an indigenous character through the eyes of the non indigenous character, knock your socks off, because that is your worldview. You're saying what it looks like to you, not what. The fact is, in the case of Julia's book, we had a character who has indigenous ancestry. She was removed from that. She was questioning. She remembered some things her mom did, but really didn't understand understand them. So the lack of knowledge fit the character because the character lacked that knowledge. Right. So we tweaked the indigenous characters in the book because she does have some indigenous. There's indigenous people in the community. But for her to not know and be confused was perfect. So, Julianne, did you want to Comment on that?

Yeah, well, no, I don't have anything to add. I would love to know, though, sue, more about your circle and if you could post in the chat, maybe like your Facebook group or a way that I could sort of just give a, you know, website or whatever. I'd just like to know more about it.

Yeah, absolutely. Do you want me to share a little bit now or just give you.

This link if that's okay with Sandy?

Yeah, actually, please do. I just want to say one thing that, sue, you already mentioned that I really want to put a spotlight on. You mentioned that there's more indigenous than non in your board or group. That actually is the way it has to be. People automatically want to go to the 50, 50 split and the power is not even. You go 50, 50, you're going to lose. The indigenous people, they have to have the comfort of the percentage to actually believe their voice will be heard. Now, does that have to go on for the rest of our lives or, you know, 100 years in the future? Who knows? But for now, that is something that's required. So go for it, Sue. I'd love to hear.

So when I woke up from my bubble and realized that I didn't know anything about my country, I started to seek out opportunities to learn. I was newly retired, which helped. There was a walk called the Walk for Common Ground that went from Edmonton to Calgary, and it was run by Dr. Patricia McCockis. You might know her son. Her son's James Makokis, who was in the Amazing Race.

Oh, well, okay, okay.

So Patricia McCockis. I reached out to her and said, I need to be there. I need to join. And so I joined just north of us, and I walked. And the very first time I heard that spiders were relatives, and I'm like, okay, I really don't know much. I walked with her. And I walked with a woman, Anita Crochu, who is from Pikani Nation. Dr. Trisha Makokis is from satellite Cree Nation. And I walked with those two women, and it was life changing. And I actually got to experience racism on a level I never experienced ever before in that walk. And so it woke. It shook me to my core. And I reached out to our mayor and I said, we need to do something. And the only thing I could think of doing was bringing people together. So it took a year, and then he finally put me in touch with a community development in the city. And we agreed that we were going to start a community group. And I said, and his assistant was there too, and I said, okay, we have three white people. We don't go any further until there's indigenous people here. So I just reached out on social media because I knew there was some indigenous people that were my friends on Facebook and said, we're thinking of starting a group. We can't go any further because it's just white who wants to. Who's interested. 23 people in 24 hours signed up, including someone I knew from previous work, and he was Metis. I didn't even know that. And so him and I and a few other people started to meet and started going, what are we going to do? How do you want to do this? And that led to people offering to speak. And it was during the pandemic, so we had zoom calls and people spoke, and it just grew. And by the. That was in the spring, and by the fall, we were aboard. And fast forward, we're now a society. We have 11 board members. We run. The city supports us for June 21 and September 30 events. And then outside of that, we've been having elder talks. We're working on some workshops with an elder, a Blackfoot elder. That is blowing my mind. It's very immersed in indigenous worldview, and it's just shocking how little I know. And so, you know, my job is kind of to be there to look for funding, because we need funding to do anything and just support in any way I can. And I'm really involved in the workshops right now. Other people might be doing more of the big events. So I always said I lit the match. That's. That's what I did.

I.

But I really learned quickly that I started to kind of want to do that I need to do something. And learned very, very quickly. I needed to learn first. I needed. And I took a whole year of courses. I took, like, all the free courses. I paid for some. I, you know, I just went to activities, went to workshops. The pandemic, everything opened up. So I just absorbed as much as I could. And that year was key because I still am learning. Absolutely. But I didn't know enough to know. I didn't know what I knew. Like, you know what I mean? And so now I'm still learning, like I said, every day.

That is so awesome. Thank you for sharing that. I wanted to make a couple comments, especially for the people that will watch this on my channel, because I know there are going to be people interested in starting their own groups. So first and foremost, I always say, before you consider starting your own, look to see if there is One, because the commonality is I want to create my own because that's what my comfort zone. But this is going to be uncomfortable. And maybe what you need is to go and be super humble and support the work that is already in place. If there isn't, like in Sue's case, well, then that's amazing. I love the humility of we're three white people. Find some voices. So I already acknowledge that the percentage has to be larger indigenous to empower the voices. The other thing that I'm going way out on a limb here, but I'm going to do it anyways because that's why I'm here. What you're going to find, if you want like benchmarks and to see if your committee or board or group or whatever it is, is really for really supporting true relationships in the beginning. You're going to attract white presenting indigenous. There's going to be people like me, there's going to be Metis that you didn't even realize are Indigenous. And it's because they're way more empowered in mainstream. Right. That we have the advantage of opening doors. But over time, you should, should start seeing more stereotypical Indigenous comfortable in your group. And if you're not, you have to do some self reflection on why. Because there are. I've done videos on Metis groups and the membership and there's a lot of people claiming to be Metis that really do not have the teachings. Right. And part of the reconciliation, the main focus of reconciliation was not to work with people like me. It was to work with the indigenous that are obviously Indigenous, that get followed around the stores, that the cab drivers don't pick up. Right. That are so used to the shame that they wouldn't even think. Think to speak out against it. Right? So that is the eventual goal that we have to be supporting and reaching the people that are so marginalized they're not even on the page. Right. Like the. And I'm not judging or condemning those first steps because you got to start with someone and that's where you gain your legs and gain your information so that you're not. Because those people could be way more uncomfortable and way more leery of joining. So you need that growth and that education before you can invite them in. But watch now I'm going to lean on my teachings for a second. In Anishinaabe culture, people ask me all the time, well, how do you become an elder? Or what makes you an elder? Right. Be very leery of the people that refer to themselves as an elder, unless the community's been calling them that for 20 years. I mean, don't worry about it. But in our teachings, a person becomes an elder not at a specific age, but when the community starts naturally going to them for guidance, they are naturally recognized in the community as a knowledge keeper. That's. That's what makes them an elder. So if you have your board in your group and everything's going on, and naturally people start reaching out and going, what you doing? That looks interesting. That is the community. And I'm talking about indigenous people reaching out. That is the community saying, looks like good work, right? We now want to join. And that's the pat on the back you're looking to get to, right? So you just quietly, humbly keep doing your work, keep learning, keep growing. But when that happens, then you can smile and know, yeah, yep, we're doing good work here. So that is. And it's not the hard invite. It's not the send the invitation to the First Nations. We want dark people here, right? It's like, no, great to save space. Let them come, right? So, yeah.

And that did happen with us. And I remember when we first kind of went live saying, you know, when we got a website and the, you know, when we went out there, people said, well, what elder you? And we didn't have an elder working with us at that time. We were only like six or eight months. And I thought, I wonder how that happens. But I trusted the first process, and it was through connections that it happened. And when the Stoney Nation started working with us and elders, it was like, oh, my God. And when they came to raise teepees at our event and to be part of our event, they were very. The kids, for sure. It was so amazing. And I remember at one point, I was sitting beside this young woman from Stoney Nation, and she was explaining because we were. They were. They stood up during the drumming, and they had their hands like this, and they were jiggling. And I said to her afterwards, can you. Can you share that, what you were doing? And she said, it's part of our dance when the drums come on and it's giving gratitude. And I gave her tobacco for that because I learned to have tobacco in my pocket at any event. Her reaction has stuck with me. She was so grateful, she started to tear up. And I just thought something that I'm like, you know, I have tobacco, and I kind of learning how to gift it. And that was so huge for me to make that connection.

Thank you for acknowledging that. I got to give you a warning In a second. But I tell people like, you will be amazed if you see, like, a moment, obviously indigenous and their little munchkin, their baby with them. And you comment as a white person, you comment on how beautiful the baby is. Don't be surprised if they don't say thank you, because they're in total shock because mainstream has never looked at their children as beautiful. But you just changed her life because she's going to go home and say, there's some lady out there that thinks you're beautiful. This is awesome, right? So it starts to take the cat image away that not everyone's a threat. The warning I wanted to give you is not all nations use tobacco.

That's true.

Right. So I know a friend of mine, a colleague, who was actually out in D.C. and, you know, an elder started sharing something absolutely amazing, and he wanted to. To be respectful and, like, honor this gift that was just given to him, the knowledge. And he went to pass him tobacco, and the elder was like, what are you doing? We don't do that. Right. And of course, luckily, he was humble enough and confident. Never mind.

Well, we have one elder that says, don't give me tobacco, I want sweet grass.

We're like, okay, the other thing. And I will never forget this. And that's what it is. A whole bunch of moments and time. You'll never forget one of those. Like, the fish doesn't see the water they swim in. That's why white people don't see their privilege, right? Because they've always had it. It's when you don't have it that you notice it. Right? When it's missing from your world. And what was the point I was going to make my brain just. We were talking about tobacco ties. I have no idea. Oh, I know what it was. So we were at an event, and, like, there's not. How to put this and not sound horrible. We don't have a lot of elders. Every year we lose more of them. The nature of being an elder. So if you do work that involves elders, you tend to run into the same elders, right? And it's amazing because it's like, hi, haven't seen you in a long time, blah, blah, blah. So I was at this event, and one of my favorite elders was there, and I was like, jerry, I haven't seen you in so long. How are you doing? It was awesome. And he spoke before me. I was asked to do a keynote. He went up and did his opening, whatever. This was actually a government. Like, I think it was federal, if I remember Correctly gathering. So I don't know why they did this or. Well, I guess I do. The city of Thunder Bay, where I live, is known for its Persians. Kind of like a cinnamon bun, kind of like. Like, they're made here. It's the only place you get them. And they take them all over the world. Right? Like, Thunder Bay is known for its Persians. And as Speaker. Speaker's gifts, they gave us each a Persian, which is kind of weird because we're from here, but whatever. It was novelty for the people in the audience, I guess. And he came back to sit at the table, and then I was gonna get called up, and he just looked at me and he said, I can't eat this. I have diabetes. And I was like. And so does 95% of our elders. Like, someone needed to give the organizers a head up. Like, let's try not to kill them when you give out a gift. Maybe not something like, for the people coming to the city for the first time. Yes, I can get it. It would be an awesome gift. But he was just like, that would literally kill me. So I think it's so important, like, when you're working with indigenous people to, like, you need to talk to indigenous people about what should be at this event or what, what's a good idea. And it's not because your idea was bad. There might be another nuance of information that's going to change whether you want to do that or not. So, yeah, that is something I really.

Struggled with, was asking what the appropriate honorarium is. What the appropriate.

Oh, there's one.

Because they didn't want to.

They're like.

They just didn't respond.

It was.

And so I realized, okay, I'm missing something because maybe I'm not supposed to ask or whatever.

So was it explained to you?

Well, our board members helped and you know what? Honestly helped. So I realized asking an elder how much honorarium he wants, he's too humble. 100 to say so, you know, but what I did do is find Facebook groups in our treaty area that I felt comfortable asking questions in, like, what are good elder gifts? Oh, my God, I got so many amazing ideas from that. Or what is an appropriate honorarium? And they. Some links to. To the universities that said 250 for half day, 500 for a full day. And I'm like, okay, that gives me a baseline. Because I didn't know if it said 20 bucks or is it 200 or is it 2000? I didn't know.

So that's a minefield. So I'M not surprised you didn't get an answer. So the elder can't tell you because it's a gift. So that's like asking what do you want for Christmas? Right? Like, no. The other thing which is even more important is the honoraria is you telling them how much you value their teachings and that's where it becomes a minefield. So you have to be really careful who you ask because there's a whole bunch of entities out there that down prayer, play the value of indigenous teachings and we'll give the $50. Right. So I always say. So the idea is that like often honoraria used to be towels, sugar, flour, coffee, helping the elder to exist, the things they need to sustain, sustain themselves. And then over time that just became money so they could buy what they want. Right? Yeah. Be really careful because that is the reputation of your group is going to be tied in that and you would rather have the reputation of someone that truly respects indigenous teachings and shows that in the way mainstream definitely doesn't with the dollars as opposed to underpaying because that will destroy all of your good work. So yeah, that's, that's, that's a minefield. That's an absolute minefield. So yeah. Yeah. But we have actually done the whole hour. Nellie, I know you're sitting there and listening and you've been amazing. Did you have any questions? Questions about Julia N's work together? I'm not sure if you can turn your mic on or is Nelly gone now? Nelly is gone now. She's gone.

Dead.

Pardon?

I was, I was. Nelly. Yeah, she's, she left.

So it's eight o' clock in Russia, so. Yeah. But I'm so glad that she stuck around. So bottom line, I mean, what did we learn? I'm going to throw it to you. I'm going to put you on the spot. Juliet. No, like I've ever done that before. If you had to sum up like top one, two, three things or whatever that you learned from our working relationship, working together over the years, what would you say? What would come to mind?

Whoa. How to put this into words. Well, I think the biggest thing was about.

Books.

Don't. Books aren't enough. So I read, read, you know, when I was researching the book and stuff, I read, read, read, read, read. I read indigenous authors, I read histories, I read, you know, I went to indigenous sites. I, you know, I tried to learn what I could, but it was a lot from reading and that didn't cut it. Even reading indigenous authors didn't. Didn't Give me enough understanding. Didn't give me. I need. It needed to be a conversation. It really did. And I was seeking. And as you know, Sandy, I had been seeking that while I was. While I was in the process of writing the book because I was very leery about what I was doing and I knew it was questionable and I just couldn't find the person because I didn't have the relationships. So I went forward. Which, you know, I won't say I now regret that because it brought me here. You know, it brought me to this place that today with all of you amazing people. I mean, so that. So books isn't, you know, that kind of research. Wasn't. Wasn't. Didn't give me the nuance of understanding of what I didn't know. I couldn't. I could only. I could gather more information from reading, but I couldn't understand what I didn't know and what my white bubble or my white mindset was, how. How much it was clouding my understanding.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I think for me, you were just such an incredible breath of fresh air. And I needed that because even though I have unpacked a lot and have learned that non indigenous white people need safe spaces as much as we do and that they're as confusing as we are. Right. But your humility, and I always knew humility was one of my teachings, the seven grandfather teachings. And I understood that's not a common teaching for mainstream. But your humility, your lack of ego, your willingness not only to answer questions, but hear the answer and then ask again for like, I. It was so obvious. You really wanted to understand that you just. It wasn't just lip service. You wanted to really get this right and you wanted to understand. And I needed to know that people like you exist.

Oh, honey.

Because that re. Reinforced my belief that. That you did, like. Because I believed in people like you even before I met you. They're out there. I know they're out there. They're not all terrible. Like, I don't want to believe this. We can bring this country together or this continent, because obviously you're from the US which just threw a whole other interesting dynamic to it. But it was just. And I know in the beginning, and I've shared this with you, that I was waiting for the backlash. I was like, okay, I have to be honest, because honesty is kind. And she asked for my opinion, and I'm not going to attack, but I have to be honest. This. This is problematic. This hurts me to read this and. Or cringe like I said.

And no, you said a couple times that it was painful.

Yeah.

And there was a couple of places where you said, this. This is painful to read.

Yeah.

And that. That, you know, hurt me, too. Of course. I mean, not. You didn't. You didn't hurt me, but it was hurtful for me to know that I had done that.

Yeah. And I think that's the not knowing, right. That we have to be humble enough to realize that in our not knowing, we can hurt people. That is a little bit of knowledge. That is literally that saying. Right. A little bit of knowledge is dangerous. And I think that's why I advised against more white presenting indigenous, because there's a lot of people out there with a little bit of knowledge. And I think, too. And again, it's my worldview, so it's easy for me to say this, that we learn things when we're meant to. Like when you did all the research and you did all the books and you were searching for the knowledge, you weren't ready to receive it yet. Like, there's part of me that believes you had to write the first book and you had to hear the backlash. It was kind of like seeing the map for Sue. That was that lightning bolt moment. Like, whoa, I'm missing something.

Right.

I love that. Whether you recognized it or not, in that moment, you didn't look to books and you didn't look online. You look like, I need to work with someone. So in that moment, you knew it had to be a relationship. You knew it had to be a conversation that whether you planned it or not, you weren't repeating the mistake. You realized, I have to do something different this time. And I think that is where I put all my energy every day, just trying to get Canadians to hear. I'm not saying you're a horrible person, and I'm not saying, throw the baby out with the bathwater, but you got to be willing to do things differently because what you're doing hurts us. Right. And I'm not, like, trying to control you or telling you you're a bad person. I'm just saying, please stop hurting us. Canada, are you listening again? So, yeah. So. But I'm. I mean, I wouldn't. I was so thrilled when you asked me to work with you because, like, another author is reaching out. This is amazing, and I love our journey together, and I'm trying to talk her into the second book.

Sandy, I will tell you more about that in. In a bit.

Okay.

Because I have more thoughts.

Okay. So you gotta read this book. This Is me. Blatant, not subtle promotion. I love this book. I have read it probably 20 times because of the editing process we went through. And every single time I cried in a good way. Even though I knew what was coming, I still did. And I just love this book so much.

So you gotta.

It means so much to.

To me.

I mean, the crying part is very powerful.

It's because it's real now. Like. And I think that's what I was missing in the first. I didn't see me in the book. I. Even though I am indigenous, I didn't see me in those characters. And I do now. Like, it's like, oh, I know those people that are lost and confused and I know those elders that don't give you full sentences and just hint at things. Right. And it can be so confusing and so frustrating. Yeah.

And.

And even the like seems like hostility. Right? That, that. The pulling away and all of that is there now. So. Yeah. Yeah.

So.

Well, soon we'll have the physical book and Sandy. I look forward to. Sandy and I are going to be doing some events together or virtually together here in Michigan, usa, where I am, where people have read the first book. So I'm hoping that people who have read the first book will be interested in the changes that were made and why and stuff like that. I think they will be. I know they will be because they've already agreed to have us come to their places, like the local library here. You know, they understand that this will be an interesting discussion.

So I'm looking.

I'm looking forward to that and seeing how people respond.

I know it's going to be interesting. Now talk. What about the second book?

What?

What? What?

Oh, well, so. So when I come here, I'm with my grandchildren and it is sort of like a vacation. But I also. I'm always trying to write stuff and work on, you know, things when I'm here with my grandchildren. And so before I came, I was thinking, what can I work on? I really wanted to work on something new and I wanted. I have some old work that I've been revising and stuff like that. I really wanted to work on something new. And I was thinking and thinking and thinking about. And I had a couple of ideas and I was driving one day in Los Angeles and I was, you know, just thinking about it and all of a sudden Flash was like, well, the sequel to the Copper Stone, that's new.

And I've been.

And Sandy and I had been talking about this for. For years as a. As an idea, as A concept. And I'd been kind of like, well, I don't know. And, you know, and there were some things about it that gave me pause, and I don't know if I can handle whatever. And I just thought, I'm just gonna play with it, like, while I'm here, I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna free write it and just. Just play with it and see what comes at me. And so that's what I'm gonna be doing while I'm here.

I love it when you read the book. By the time you get to the end, you're going to be saying, well, I need the second book now. Right. Because there are just things that need to happen on their journey, so.

And you're not the only person that's been saying that, you know, from day one, a lot of people have said, like, well, oh. And they've had various thoughts about how that would go and what they wanted to see. And so we'll talk about that more as the. As the. As it all unfolds, you and I.

Awesome. So the journey continues. And from a reconciliation standpoint, I think that can be the only goal that it's not. I want to have a solid relationship with you by 12-31-25. That's not how it works. We are going to do this one step at a time, one day at a time, one conversation at a time. We're going to be open and honest and respectful and transparent. And we acknowledge there's going to be points where you didn't understand what I said. And I'm going to have. I'm going to be challenged to find a different way to say it and vice versa. And that's a relationship, and that's just growing together, and that's what makes it awesome. So it's. It's the path. It's patience, awareness, tenacity, and humility. Right. And. And that's how you end up with amazing friends like Julia and. Yes. And an amazing book like Copper Stone. I can't wait. I can't wait.

And Jennifer, I would be so interested to know how your niece responds to the necklace.

I would be interested to.

I think that's a beautiful. And you put so much heart into it.

Thank you.

Thought.

And when I created bracelets from my nieces and nephews and my four great nephews and my almost two great nieces, because one's still developing with her mom, I put hearts on all the bracelets to show them I love them. And one of the things I learned from Sandy, from Day one was humility builds bridges. Ego burns them.

Yes.

And I see far too much of the burning kind and not enough of the humility in a lot of people. They're so full of themselves, they can't talk properly. And that gets me, because I'm autistic. I'm borderline autistic. And when their ego gets in the way and they talk over top of me, I feel like going, whoa, whoa, whoa. I can't stand it when you talk over top of me. Will you stop your ego for a minute and actually listen to what I'm telling you? And I work with veterans. I volunteer with them all the time at Sunnybrook. I love it. Sunnybrook Veterans center in Toronto is one of the biggest places besides places in Ottawa and all over Canada for veterans can go, where they're all different nationalities, all different, you know, combat levels, all of that. And they can feel they have a great space to be where they can be listened to. They can be talked to, not as a child, but as an actual adult who's been through a lot, and they can actually just sit there and listen to them. And, oh, yes, you're right. You're still feeling that. Even 70 years later. You're feeling it. And they're not being dismissed, which is what I love about Sunnybrook. Nobody dismisses anyone there. They don't talk down to them because they may have dementia. They don't talk about them behind their backs. They actually acknowledge they're in the room with them, which is great. I love it. And if I didn't have that experience, you know. But that's all part of humility, is being able to listen. Yeah.

That's all part of, like, we all need good soil. Right. By the way, sue, you mentioned you lit the flame, you watered the seed.

Oh, I like that better.

Oh, right. You are the good soil that these things could grow. And the. The job, or our job is to find good soil and then to drag everyone we know to the good soil, because we all need good soil to grow. So. And that's.

Thank you for that.

Thank you for this.

Fantastic, awesome, awesome.

Thank you for being here. It was really, really wonderful to meet you both.

Yeah, this is.

This is.

I love my life. I can't help.

I love your life, too.

I love your house. That's what I want. I wish I was in Michigan. I could go off on a tangent. Could you change your president? And then we could.

Oh, that's so good. We're trying.

If you could work on that, I'd super appreciate it.

We're working on it. It's all about alliances, though, and that's the part that's difficult. It's all about building bridges between people who essentially are on the same side but have so many differences between them. And that is the key. And that's what's really, really hard to do.

Yeah.

And we as white. White people, and also Americans in general, very much lack humility. That's built in to being Americans, even. We're the best country in the world and all that.

Yeah. I've definitely run right smack into it and long before the president showed up, because I'm 45 minutes from the border where I live. Right. And yeah, anyone on the other side, I mean, I can remember being a teenager and having them feeling sorry for us because we were Canadian. Like, you know, it's too bad that you were born on the wrong side of the border. And it's like, who says that?

Exactly.

Did you just. Wow. I have to go now. Not even sure what to do with that. So. Yeah.

Yeah.

But on that note, I'm gonna let you go. Thank you so, so much for coming out. I'm so glad we did this. This is absolutely awesome. And you take care, Julia. I'm gonna send you a link in a few minutes because we're gonna play on YouTube for a minute, but. Ruby. Yeah. Thank you, Sue. Thank you, Jennifer. Thank you.

Thank you, sue and Jennifer.

You're welcome. This was awesome. Take care.

Take care.

Bye. Bye.

Bye.