TLC & a Powerful Newspaper Article

Hi, everybody, my name is Sandy Boucher and welcome back to the Learning Curve. Things are changing out there in the city. The weather is definitely changing, but here it's the same old, same old. As we're going to once again walk through the learning curve to get together. As always, I want to send a huge thank you, a big cheemigwich to all the people that stop me. Send me a text, send me an email to say how much they're enjoying the show and how much they're learning from the show, which is exactly why we wanted to do it. And as always, if you have a topic, if something's happening in the Indigenous communities and you just understand it or why it's a big issue, please send me an email. Don't be embarrassed that you don't understand and we can do a future show on it to help you through that learning curve. Now, as always, I have an amazing guest for you today and you may know him because as I'm out there in the community, I'm starting to realize just how many people know this individual. And of course, I'm talking about Reg Jones. He's the guest today and he's retired as of 2008 as vice president, Corporate Services at Confederation College. And he served as the Secretary Treasurer of the Board of Governors. His career has spanned over 40 years with Northern Ontario school boards, public and separate, and the college with 30 years in senior leadership position positions. But that's not how I got to know him. I met Reg recently and he reached out to me and shared an article he had written. With all the challenges and difficult discussions I have in the course of my career, every now and then I trip across something that just gives me so much hope and that's how I describe Reg's article. So I've invited him here today to share that very article with you. And then we're going to discuss why he wrote it and what he hoped to accomplish by sharing it. So, as always, go get your coffee, get in that comfy chair and I'll meet you back here so that once again we can walk through the learning curve. Hi, everybody. Once again, my name is Sandy Boucher and welcome back to the Learning Curve. And today we are welcoming Reg Jones. Thank you so much for coming out.

Great to be here, Sandy.

Usually it's someone I've known for quite a while and I just suck up to them to come on the show. But thank you so much because we haven't known each other very long. So as I mentioned to you before the show, I Always start with getting to know people. And when I know the guests, I always seem to find out something I didn't know. But for you, this is going to be all new to me. So are you born and raised Thunder Bay?

I was not quite born here, but raised here for sure. So all my schooling through high school and university was here in Thunder Bay.

Awesome. Even universities. You graduated from lu?

I've got two degrees from lu, yes.

Awesome. What are the degrees?

Bachelor of Commerce. And then when I was working, I worked on a master's of education because I was in education.

Wow. Way to go. What?

High school, Westgate. Go Tigers.

That's the best. Awesome. So family raised kids here?

Yes, we have two daughters. One lives here, one lives in Montreal. We started out here with the family, but we lived in Terrace Bay and Timmins. So we were northerners. But I spent part of my career east of here.

Awesome. But you spent a lot of time at Kong College, right?

Yes, most of my career. The last 20 years of my career have been with the college and with Nagano and Council. More than that. I've actually been working with them since I retired as well. 27 years with him.

Is that why so many people know you?

That could be. It could be Advent.

You're just a friendly guy.

Just depends who you talk to, I guess. Circles.

Seriously, every single time I mention your name, it's like, oh, Reg. It's like, where was I? In a bubble. Like, why don't I know this man? So, yes. That's awesome. Now, like I mentioned, we haven't known each other very long and you were nice enough to share an article with me that you thought I'd be interested in, and you nailed that one because you definitely had my interest. And thank you so much for coming out today. And as mentioned, I really wanted you to share the actual article with the viewers so that they knew what we were talking about rather than hoping they had seen it. Because it was printed in the Chronicle journal, I believe, right?

Yeah, about a month ago.

A month ago. Okay. So it was called for the Good people of Thunder Bay. Yes, you had me from the title. You should be an author. So I'll let you just go ahead and read the article and we'll take it from there.

We'll see what we can do with this voice of mine. Right now, for the good people of Thunder Bay, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. That's from Edmund Burke. I have been following the racism debate locally, nationally and internationally. The there is so much misunderstanding and ignorance of the facts. I sense many people who weigh in may never have talked to an Indigenous person or a refugee, let alone worked with them. They make assumptions and aspersions based on fear and generational myths. I find it curious that the current objects of fear are both the earliest inhabitants of this land and the newest. Self preservation of status quo privilege seems paramount. In my work with school boards from 1973 to 1989, I was privileged to get to know first nations leaders and educators across northern Ontario. There were many aha moments as I blundered along, learning and trying to be helpful. My 27 years with the college's Naganoan Council has taught me much. Elders, council members, teachers, students, colleagues have revealed a different perspective on history and culture. The dramatic transition to first contact the fur traders, then the settlers, the broken treaties, the apartheid of reserves, the generational damage of residential schools. And there's more. I now know many successful Indigenous professionals working and raising their families in Thunder Bay. My learning has continued. In retirement I read, watch films and ask questions to understand. Living in the waterfront area gives me an opportunity to engage with folks on the street and along McVickar Creek. I think that our personal and media focus on the polar extremes of left or right is wrong headed. I think it takes our eye off the ball. The biggest problem I see is what I call apathetic racism. Most people in Thunder Bay do not hurl trailer hitches, slushies or epithets at indigenous people, nor do they overtly despise Muslims. They are good people, but they are largely silent and not well informed. A few work on justice issues in their work or in their church or service organizations, but most do not really want to talk about it, learn more or get involved. It's understandable because it's hard, but as Desmond Tutu said, if you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. Our focus for education and understanding should not be on the overt racists, but on the vast middle in our community, the well meaning. It should be within all our institutions where old structural attitudes still exist. Good hearts and minds need to change. We can't be uninformed and uninvolved, apathetic. We must be engaged. We need to be educated to the truth of our history and the impact of that history. We can no longer claim blindness. Seeing nothing, learning nothing, saying nothing and doing nothing is why racism continues. My hope is that this column and newspaper and your program that wasn't in there then become a place of Learning for the good people of Thunder Bay. This is an amazing city. I love it. It works for me, but it doesn't work for everyone. I am continually surprised at how little we collectively know of our shared history. But I am encouraged as I see how little new knowledge it takes for most people to turn their hearts and minds toward justice rather than away from the injustice. We need to and we can do better. So I'm asking people to commit, to be part of the solution. Start your own learning journey. Engage in local opportunities. Get to know your indigenous and refugee neighbors. Learning makes us humble and helpful. I encourage people to try and become an ally and to speak up.

Wow. Just wow. Are you sitting in your living room going, wow? I'm wow. And you know what? While you were reading this is just an interesting observation, I guess. I'm an author, right? So I know the power of having an author read their own words, that it's just a different level. You feel so much when you read it, but when they read it, it's 110% more. And reading your article the first time blew me away. But sitting here listening to you read it just like upped the game. So I can't even put into words how much hope I take from those words. So thank you. Thank you for writing them, for reading it today. Thank you for coming out today. As I promised, when we come back after the break, we're going to discuss why he wrote this article, why he felt it was important, and what Reg hopes to accomplish by having you hear these words. So go grab that coffee, go refill it, get back in that comfy chair, because you're not going to want to miss this. See you in a few minutes. And we're back. Welcome back to the Learning Curve again. I'm Sandy Boucher, and today we're chatting with Reg Jones about the article for the good people of Thunder Bay that you wrote. And like I said before the break, wow. Just wow. I was actually sitting here thinking, how bad would it be if I start crying? Because that's how much it touches people. And speaking as an indigenous woman, and I think people underestimate how much that means to us that, you know, I talk to people all the time and they think it's just words. And God knows we've had enough empty promises. But when something's written from the heart, and in this case read from the heart, that is huge. So here you are living in Thunder Bay, and you've had this amazing career here, raised your family here, and out of the blue, you Write this article. Where did that come from? Why did you write the article?

Well, actually, I was asked by somebody I know who's on the Anti Racism and Respect Committee because that article was written for their column. So she knew a little bit of what I was doing and some of the work I've been doing in retirement. And so she just asked me to put some thoughts down. And I had been thinking over the summer, and I guess what drove me to write it was two things, really. The whole conversation on racism across the world, across North America especially, but particularly in Canada. And then the other thing was the tremendous privilege I have had for the last 45 years of learning from indigenous people. And there's that great quote, you know, it's hard to hate people, close up, move in. And I was given that opportunity just because of how things happened over my school board career, my college career. And I was able to learn and listen, and I guess so that's one thing I wanted to say, is that we white folks need to learn a whole lot about our history. It's our history. It's a shared history. I remember Breastplate and Buckskin was the textbook I had in elementary school, and it looked at history from very much a European point of view. And indigenous people were kind of extraneous to the conversation or in the way or whatever. And so that's part of what I mean. We were not educated well in our total history. But I guess the other piece that has been bothering me is that the focus on overt racism sometimes I think, takes us away from the real issue. Yes, we have to deal with that, but that's almost a question of law and politicians and dealing with that. And most people would say that's wrong. Right. And then there's a few folks who are really, you know, trying to move in and trying to make a difference and trying to understand. But the vast majority of us are in the middle, and they're sort of just sitting there, sort of saying, this is uncomfortable conversation. This is hard. Do we have to talk about this? And I guess I'm saying, yeah, I think we do have to talk about this, because we need to be part of moving forward. The whole idea of reconciliation, whatever that means to everyone, is, first, it's based on understanding and trust and respect.

Exactly. And if there's one thing that theme that keeps coming up in all these shows is getting comfy with being uncomfortable. Right. I agree with you. These conversations aren't easy. But again, at the end of the day, when I go home, I take so much Joy and hope and just faith in the future from the fact that we're having the conversation. And when it gets frustrating, and when I see my colleagues and allies getting frustrated, I remind them that just five years ago, we weren't having these conversations. And we may have been thinking about it, but, I mean, I'm actively involved in these conversations. And it's not my doing. It's people reaching out to me, people I've met at community events or whatever the case may be, and just saying, can we go for coffee? Because I just want to understand. And your quote, I saw it on your Facebook page. That quote about getting it's hard to hate close up. That quote comes up for me all the time. Every time I get one of those emails, it's like, amazing. They're moving close up, closer, right? And then we're not a stereotype. We're not these people that were forgotten. We're humans. And yes, we have a different culture and we look at things a different way, but it's that personal conversation and relationship that makes a difference. But you, I learned from everyone I meet and. And listening to you talk just now, it's like, oh, that was a reminder. Okay, I caught that. Because you're right. In. In a community conversation or in the general, what's going on in the city, the loud get the attention. Right. So that squeaky wheel, as always. And of course, seriously, as an indigenous woman, when someone screams out something horribly racist, you're going to get my attention. It hurts. It's not because I'm focusing. It's that hurt obvious. But you're right, because I couldn't help thinking that we wouldn't have so many cases of those overt comments if we hadn't created a space where they know no one's going to say anything. Right. And you're right. It's that complacency. It's that, why aren't we saying something or. And why aren't we being more inclusive? Right.

Yeah. And speaking up and addressing some of those things. One of the things I learned from indigenous friends at the college and elsewhere over time is that it's so tiring to be defending and explaining all the time and, you know, like, you know, explaining history, just, you know, the facts. And I guess that's one thing I've been wondering as a white guy, if I need to be doing more to help white folks understand our history. There's so many things about the Indian act or the reserve system, the legalities of things that explain why things are the way they are. And the restrictions, it's unbelievable. The whole land, all the land issues, there is so much there that has restricted indigenous people from doing anything, really. And most people don't understand that. I don't know, they have some European sense of history. They don't understand what North America is all about.

Exactly. And I think you touched on a lot of that, is that it's up to the individual to go find that information because it wasn't provided to them in the school system. It totally wasn't. So if, And I know we all have incredibly busy lives, but if you want to understand what's going on in this city or even this country, the onus is get on Google and look up the, The Indian act and look up the rules that are around the people that live on the rez. I mean, it's ridiculous and it's very cumbersome and it's definitely worth looking into. So I got a comment, and this is again, coming from my indigenous lens, but you are really comfy with saying white guy or white person. And I gotta admit, even though it's been five years of these discussions, that's still like, whoa, I'm still not used to that. And I know there's going to be people watching this going, why does he keep saying that? So why is it important to you to identify that way?

Yeah, maybe I was initially uncomfortable, I don't know, but it's a fact. Thank you. I mean, it's the truth. I'm a WASP to boot. I'm white, Anglo Saxon, Protestant, and I probably go back. I can probably go back 800 years to England. So I'm about as white as you can get. So. Yeah, I mean, yeah, no, I'm not uncomfortable with it because, I mean, this whole. I know a lot of people are uncomfortable with the concept of white privilege, but I have, you know, I learn all the time how. And male, I mean, white male privilege, I mean, I got it all. And it's. Yeah, it's when you grow up in it, you don't recognize it because you just think that's the norm. And then the irony I find is that a lot of people then apply the same rules to everybody else, except the rules weren't the same for everybody else. Right. They were totally different. And that's the thing that I would like to help people learn is, you know, what we did over the last couple of hundred years.

Exactly. So I have a question for you because it was asked to me a little while ago and of course, again, I'm coming from the indigenous perspective. So I would love to hear what you would have said or how you would have responded if they had asked you.

You sure?

So I was having a similar discussion. I was talking about the white privilege and I'm certain it was in response to a blog post I had written. I don't know which one, but it was a non indigenous person I was talking to, a white person I was speaking to. And her comment was that the whole whatever I had written had made her uncomfortable because she didn't identify with the settlers. That's what it was. I had used the term settlers.

Yeah, yeah, right.

So, yeah, she didn't identify with them. So she was wondering like, well, where does that leave her and why is she getting dragged into this?

It wasn't my fault.

Right, yeah.

So how do I, how do I respond to that? Well, it's sort of like the church as well. I mean, there were some churches that were, you know, directly involved in the residential schools, but then there's the church corporate, you know, around the world. And so it's a similar kind of question, like our church didn't do that. But in terms of settlers. Yeah, I mean, my great great grandparents came to Newfoundland as fishermen. They were very humble folks. They had no power or whatever. My grandparents from England came to Calgary at the turn of the century. Again, humble folks. They never owned a house even. But they were part of the settling of Canada and we inherited. I've done some walk a mile training and when I talk about some of this, I relate it to a collective agreement. And a collective agreement between a union and an employer. Some of Those agreements are 100 years old and there's still language in there from 100 years ago that was written then, but it applies to everybody right now. And so I try to say to people, the treaties, I mean, the other thing I like is that we are all treaty people. A lot of white people think that the treaties are somehow owned by indigenous people. And it's not really, it's not anything to do with us. But no, au contraire, you're the other side of that contract. That agreement and the breaking of that agreement has happened, you know, just throughout all of history. So yeah, yeah, we are complicit. Even though it was, you know, started hundreds of years ago. And so the sins of the fathers are visited on the generations after. And so we are just as accountable. I think that's a learning that a lot of people don't get because they don't see themselves as. I didn't make any of those decisions. I didn't do any of that. I'm not a bad person. And in that sense, they're not, but they don't realize that they are part of a system.

Absolutely. And I always say no one gets to start from zero. Right. And I mean, coming from the Indigenous perspective, there's so many of us that wish we could not have been passed on that pain or that those challenges or that oppression and whatever, but that. That wasn't a choice. And you don't get to choose that. No. Nothing my parents did has anything to do with me or my grandparents. Well, we all inherited, as you said.

Absolutely. The residential school. I think the best thing that's happened was the trc, to be honest. It has raised the conversation. That's something. Everybody should read that report. They should read the knock at the door sort of the stories that are attached to that report. But I think the TRC has raised the conversation. I hope the murdered and missing Indigenous women, if it ever gets working, will also raise the conversation and educate people.

You just gave me an idea for another show. So our time is up. Can you believe it?

Great.

I want to thank you for coming out today. That was absolutely amazing. As always, please take the information you heard today and use it in your conversations. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission Report is the TRC that Reg was referring to, and you can access that online. But I'm really thinking I'm going to have to do a future show on that because it's valuable information and a great plan, a place to start as we try to figure out how to walk through this learning curve in a respectful way with each other. As always, thanks for tuning in. You take care of yourself and I'll see you next time here at the Learning Curve.