TLC Discusses Community Events Using the LDDM

Hi, everybody, my name is Sandy Boucher and welcome back to the Learning Curve. As always, I am so thrilled that you've chosen to take that place in your comfy chair and join us for another episode. I was thinking about the episodes we've done to date and I really hope that not only did you listen to the information, but I hope it got you thinking about those discussions and even asking questions. If you heard something on this show and it made you think, well, what about that? Then? That makes me so happy because that means you're already walking through the learning curve and that's exactly why we do this show. So as always, I have an amazing guest for you today and we're going to talk about some community events that are coming up happening in our city that are truly attempting to build bridges because there's many, many people out there that are bringing this city together in amazing ways. So as always, grab your coffee or whatever your favorite cold drink is, head for that comfy chair and I'll meet you back here in a few minutes as we go through the learning curve. Hi everybody and welcome back to the Learning Curve. Again, I'm Sandy Boucher and most of you are going to know my guest, or at least a lot of you, because this woman is known for such amazing work in this city. So if you don't, I'd like to introduce you to Angela Golot. And today we're presenting her as the facilitator of the Lewis Deep democracy method. And that's probably not going to make a lot of sense to you yet, but you're going to understand it by the end of this show. So welcome to the show, Angela.

Thank you for having me.

I am so thrilled you agreed to come on board. So the first thing we always do on this show, because it's not about topics, it's about building relationships and people and meeting people and having those real conversations. And the best part about this is I bring people on that I know, but I get to ask questions and things that I didn't know. So are you from Thunder Bay? Yes. You are? Born and raised.

Born and raised in Thunder Bay. I actually originally kind of spent my early childhood living in a very small one room cabin up the Armstrong Highway.

Wow.

Yeah, about maybe 45 minutes from town with me and my brothers and my parents. And I really developed my relationship with the natural world and the land in that place.

Knowing you, that explains so much. And that's beautiful. That's amazing. Wow. I had no idea. So, born and raised in this cabin and Then at what point do you come into the city?

And then we moved into town kind of when I was starting to go to school and. And yeah, and I've done some traveling, done some studying and connecting with communities outside of Thunder Bay. But I feel really compelled to come back and contribute in a meaningful way to Thunder Bay.

I've always come back, and that's a common theme. I swear I'm gonna do a show just on that theme at some point, because almost every guest I've had and I didn't realize it when I invited them, every single one of us have chosen to come back to Thunder Bay. I moved to Toronto and chose to come back. You've come back. There's something about this place we love. It has its challenges. That's why we're doing this show. But we love it. Ah, I love it. No wonder you fit in. So, education wise, lu.

Yes, I went to lu, and my background is really in women's studies and history, so I always kind of had an interest in social justice and interested in how we got to here. And so. Yeah, that's my main exact family.

Exactly. And you mentioned you've traveled around.

Yeah. So some of that traveling really has been for some personal development work and training. I've studied a lot around mindfulness and different spirituality, and so have traveled for that. And also I'm an artist in the community, so I've also traveled to do some training and teaching. Actually, I've done a lot of work and teaching different communities as well.

Amazing. What places have you traveled to?

Well, all over the United States. A lot in the States and some communities throughout Canada. I've been down to Chile to do some work and study down there as well.

Wow.

It's been exciting.

Okay. I can't even imagine that one. That one will have to do a coffee at some point. So your training or educational background, that's women's studies.

Yeah.

Right. So that explains so so much. But we're here today for a very special reason. Because you've taken on a project. It kind of reminds me of when I had Dave Kreiderman on here. And of course, his seminar is the White Problem. And the first thing I mentioned was, boy, you're gutsy, because I could never do a seminar with that name. And of course, he then pointed out with his privilege, it wasn't even an issue for him, which was such a learning curve for me. Right. But you're doing a series of workshops, and I want to get this right. So you're doing it hosted along with Melanie Harding.

Yes.

Okay. And it's called Conversations on Becoming an Anti Racism Ally. Now, I believe you've had your first session.

Yes, we had it on Tuesday.

Okay, so what is this? Go.

Yeah.

Over to your corner.

So I really was inspired by, you know, kind of the growing call and desire for the community to come together and have some really meaningful and. And challenging conversations about Indigenous based racism in Thunder Bay. And I also attended the Conversations across the Racial Divide event which happened in February, which was facilitated by Aftab Airfan. And I was really inspired by that event in particular and the way that that facilitation and process allowed the community to come together and talk about this really difficult topic in a healthy, kind of more effective way. And so I went and studied. It inspired me to actually fly out to Vancouver and go and study with her and learn how to do this process so that I could come back and do something with it here in this community. I also, you know, want to mention Michelle derozier, who I highly respect and admire, and I was at her recent film screening where she actually asked the white community to come together and talk about the ways in which we've internalized and unconsciously express racial attitudes. And so I would declare, and I kind of mentioned to you before coming on the show, that I don't feel like I'm an expert on this topic. There's a lot. There's many more people that know more than I do about this issue. But especially when Michelle kind of called for that community conversation, I thought, you know, I am able to call community together and I can hold space for that conversation and make sure there's people in the room that are more well versed than I am so that we make sure there's knowledge in the room as well.

And as an Indigenous woman who has those conversations on a regular basis, they're uncomfortable. They're very uncomfortable for the usually non Indigenous person I'm talking to. Yeah, they're not comfortable for me in any way, shape or form. But I always try to make the point that I'm so thrilled we're having the conversations.

Absolutely.

That, and I mean, the name of the show, it isn't an accident. It's a learning curve. And anything new is uncomfortable and. And feelings get hurt. You're on edge. You don't know. Like, I know respectful people, but sometimes, as you were saying, they're learning that maybe the way they looked at things is not very respectful.

Absolutely. And learning. I think for white people or settlers, it's like we have to learn how to just be in the discomfort. And that's a big part of it. There's like this real, I mean, for me just to kind of reflect on my own experience, and I think it might be true for others, is there's a real vulnerability that's required to do this work and a real humbling to be able to kind of put yourself out there and be open to new information. And it can be really challenging because it feels like it's personal and you're a bad person. And I think, you know, you've had many guests on the show talk about how, you know, people who demonstrate racist ideas are not, not necessarily bad people. But there's a lot of learning that we have to do, which is why your show is so important. And so coming together in community was really unique. I also want to mention that I had a little bit of feedback in planning these conversations with Jana Ray Yurza, who you've had on the show, and she definitely reflected some feedback around how tricky it is to have white people come together to talk about decolonization. And. And I fully acknowledge that that is true. And so it's really important, as she pointed out, that we as white people also continue to really look to indigenous voices to lead the way and then continue to do our own kind of self reflective work as well in partnership with that work. Yeah.

And again, that's part of my unpacking the suitcases. Jana would say we're just gonna rename the show Jana's Show. Cause she's phenomenal. And I know I just embarrassed her by saying that she's as beautiful as she is powerful, she's also as humble. So. But looking at my own stereotypes, how I had internalized the oppression I was raised in, and I had these debilitating ideas about what I could and couldn't do and how much space I could take up. And of course, then how much space I could take up safely. Sure is a whole different ball game. Right. So it's, it's a learning curve.

Absolutely.

And it is uncomfortable. And you know what? I have kudos for the comment you just made about getting comfy with being uncomfortable. Because I think what I'm seeing now, and I may not have realized it until you said that comment was, as an indigenous woman, I've been made uncomfortable in general conversation almost since the day I was born and definitely as long as I can remember because. And that's just the way it was that people, privileged non indigenous people, white people, settlers, just felt they could ask anything and everything and really didn't worry about was it offensive, should I have phrased it another way? And, and now they are almost being FL forced to think about the wording. And I know a little while ago I shared with someone that learning how to communicate cross culturally is something I've had to do since kindergarten as my teacher wasn't indigenous and the store owner wasn't indigenous and my dad's boss wasn't indigenous. So I'm not asking anyone to do anything more than what we ask children to do if they're indigenous or newcomers or marginalized. Racialized.

Absolutely right. Absolutely. Yeah, we are. We definitely have a learning curve in terms of, you know, being vulnerable and being in discomfort and in discomfort also with learning how to confront people in their racism. And you know, there's a lot of really well meaning people out there. I know a lot of lovely people who in subtle ways express racial ideas. And we need to learn how to step into those conversations. And I think also we can do that in kind ways where appropriate. And we had a lot of conversation and feedback about how to call people into the conversation instead of always calling out right away. And it kind of was part of the intention for this community conversation too is to create a forum where it's really accessible so you don't have to be a political science major or an indigenous studies major. It's like it has to be accessible to the wider community. And we have to explain jargon if we're going to use it, explain ideas that are way over people's heads because I think if they have that information, we can engage in more respectful dialogues. But yeah, we really need to, we need to make those conversations more accessible.

I, I couldn't agree more because I always go to the place keeping in mind that every single person you're concerned about what is relevant in your world and if you've got a full time job and you've got kids at home and you're trying to, to make enough money to pay that mortgage, spending your spare time going to research cross cultural relations or privilege or whatever may not be on the agenda. So we need to make it easily accessible and, and just so we can have those conversations and not have people, maybe they can feel uncomfortable about the words they chose, but not because they don't understand what my mom would call that $15 word. Right. You know me, I try to keep it conversational. So this is not about comparing our education levels. This is about trying to understand each other.

And many of the people that were there actually expressed that that Sheer due to their privilege, they've not had to contemplate these ideas before. And so this is like a brand new thing for so many people to even step into the conversation because we've not had to. And I think there's obviously something happening in our city which is at such a crisis point that none of us have the luxury of stepping out of this conversation anymore. And so more people are learning how to step in.

Exactly. We're going to be back in a few seconds, so go refill that coffee and we'll be right back. And welcome back. Once again, we have Angela Golot here and she's a facilitator for the Lewis Deep democracy method. So again, thanks for coming out today. This conversation. And I swear, almost every conversation I have on this show could so easily be an eight hour conversation. So I apologize because it goes against everything of my culture to interrupt someone. But when the clock says I have to go to commercial break. Right. So. And. And my indigenous friends out there will totally get that. So. But I did want to talk about these community conversations, so I believe they were held at Blue Sky.

Yeah, Blue Sky Community Healing Center.

Kudos to Blue sky for stepping up.

Yeah, yeah. Cindy Crow and Cynthia have a gorgeous space there and I'm always honored when they allow me to be a part of it. There was 40 plus people in attendance that night with another 40 on the waiting list for that session. So people were really interested. There was a lot of engagement and people are really looking forward to the next one.

That gives me so much hope just hearing because I'm sorry, forgive me this, but in a lot of cases, Thunder Bay is known for its complacency. That we hear the comments, it's easy to post it online, but when it comes to actually butt in chair, that doesn't necessarily happen. And wow, you had a great turnout.

It was a great turnout. And being in person, you know, there's all these conversations online, as you say, and some of them get nasty pretty quick and people are anonymous and so there's complications around that and it doesn't feel always that healthy. And so there was something really important actually about looking into someone's eyes when you're speaking and being in relationship in a really direct way in those conversations makes a really big difference about how people participate.

I swear, some people, I just want to take their keyboard away. Sure. Like you said, if we were in prison person, would you really say it that forcefully or in that way?

Yeah.

And you're. You're right. So. So how did it Go. How long was the session?

It was about two and a half hours. Okay. And it. It went really well. It was really interesting. We kind of had a theme, Mel and I and a couple people that we were working with to coordinate this and kind of brainstorm. We kind of came up with first, starting with the idea of really self reflecting, and again, in part inspired by indigenous leaders in the community asking us to do this work. And so really reflecting on how are we still an expression of racism in the community, even though we're well meaning, and it doesn't look as overt as actual acts of violence or slurs or things like that, that there's this whole huge group of us that we unconsciously are still a part of that system. And so really reflecting on. And the question that we first posed, which was kind of controversial, was how do we all still benefit from racism that's happening in Thunder Bay? And in what ways are we still, you know, in what ways do we reap the benefits of that? And it was a hard conversation, but people also really stepped up and owned that in some pretty personal ways. Lots of differing perspectives, but I would say the vast majority of people were definitely there with a really open heart to look really closely at themselves and take responsibility for their own participation.

Right. And it's not, I'm going to assume, because I know you, so it's taking that ownership. But no one's. That's not a negative space to do that. Right. Like, you can safely say, like, wow, I had no idea I'm benefiting from this. Right?

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we're. I don't think we can ask people to step forward and be flogged for acknowledging. Exactly. And that's not what this space was about. It was about creating a space where people could actually just own that in a safe space.

And.

And it kind of. It just. It reorients people inside themselves in terms of, like, how. Okay, so if I know that to be true about myself now and hearing other people express the ways they're privileged and reap the benefits of racism, I can also identify that in my own life. And then we can be better equipped to contemplate how do I embody that knowledge now in a responsible way in my community? You know, what does that mean about the ways that I address racism when I see it? What does it mean about where I put my vote when city council comes up? How do I participate in events that are being already rallied by Indigenous community? How do I put my energy behind that In a way that's meaningful and respectful.

And again, you just keep touching on these amazing points. And don't get me wrong, there are so many, like I said, these conversations, these gatherings that I take so much hope from. And I just keep reminding people that 10 years ago, this wasn't happening. So we've come so far. We have a long way to go, but we're heading in the right direction as far as I'm concerned. But I know one comment you made earlier. There's a difference between calling someone out and calling someone in. And I know what I see. The old pendulum conversation my mom used to talk about all the time. So when someone's been oppressed for so long, what I see is the pendulum swings to the other side. And now they're very aggressive and they're really good at calling people out. And I'm not saying that's wrong, because in some cases, holy moly's. That conversation needs to be disruptive. But what is this calling them in? This is a new concept for me.

And it's not my idea at all. There's many different people who've talked about this concept of calling people in, and I agree there are times when it needs to be called out and named. I think no matter what, it needs to be named for what it is. I think the idea about calling people in is about understanding that as the conversation kind of evolves around decolonization and racism, there's so much new information constantly coming into the space that almost nobody can keep up with the new terms. And. And especially for white settler folks, we're actually way far behind. We're even, like, way behind that point. Even in large part, it's about.

Reaching.

Out for people and inviting them to participate and not assuming right away that they don't want to participate and that they're intentionally being racist. Again, I think we need to name racism for what it is. I don't think it's about being soft about naming that, but I think in this particular context, it was about creating a space where people get to access and be a part of the conversation that they might feel is way over their head, but they need to be a part of in some way. And so how do we include you even if you don't have all the information? I don't have all the information. I'm still reading constantly and learning and listening to friends and going to events, and I don't think that process will ever end. So people who are even farther behind in that we have to invite them.

To participate and that's a beautiful commonality though. Right. That's a great grounds for us to build a bridge because I'm learning those terms too. Right. And trying to find a way to help someone else understand what that made me feel like. Right. When I've just accepted that that's the way it makes me feel for my entire life. And I've never necessarily had anyone ask or care. Right. They either identified with it because they were feeling the same way, or they totally just didn't. Right. The one thing I can say, and I took part in that LU event as well. And at one point, indigenous and non indigenous had been divided in the room and they literally hand the indigenous side the mic. And the question was, what would you like them to hear? If you could say one thing. And I know it's different now than when I sat at that event, but what I'm seeing Facebook again. Thunderbay's huge on Facebook. I'm seeing people identify that, whoa, that wasn't appropriate. Or that person, the way they acted, that wasn't appropriate. But what I seem to be seeing is they see it, they identify it and they come home and talk about it on Facebook. So they're not disrupting it yet. Which that always leaves me thinking of either the young girl or the elder that is going to have to deal with that and be affected by it because someone perhaps in more a powerful position could have disrupted it and stopped that.

Yeah. And I think, you know, even as a part of this conversations that we're having, because the whole process is actually about going into conflict, I think one of the tools that people will learn just through witnessing other people model it is how to go into conflict.

Exactly.

Because most people are actually pretty conflict averse. And so maybe it's human nature, whatever it is, and if we don't have to step in normally, then we don't step in. But I think we need to actually learn what it looks like to go into conflict in a meaningful way. And so, yeah, we're kind of learning that skill. We're working that muscle a little bit. Awesome.

In the next show, I'm actually going to let you know what's on the next show ahead of time. That's the first time that's ever happened. And. And that's because Angela is going to join us again. So we've alluded to, and we've mentioned Lewis deep democracy method, but I mean, what is that? And it is very unique and very powerful as far as I'm concerned. So Angela's humbly agreed to come back next time so we can talk about that more. But in the meantime, if someone wanted to get hold of you, wanted to see if there's a chance of getting in on one of these community events, how would they get ahold of you?

So I'm on Facebook. You can find me there. As we're talking about Facebook, and really we put out the event invitation on Facebook and it kind of went out to Dave Kreiderman's kind of community that he's built around the white problem as well. I went to city council and Diversity, Thunder Bay, the anti racism committee. But you can also email me@angela golatmail.com okay. And I can get you on the list.

And if I get that link, I will post it on the Learning Curve Facebook page as well so people can follow up with you. So thank you so much for coming out today. As always, I can just imagine your head must be spinning with what we presented today. And that's a good thing. Getting comfy with being uncomfortable. But I really want to encourage you to come back next time and we're going to talk about this method because I, I honestly had no idea how powerful this was until I had the opportunity to take part in the event at lu. And I know Angela does amazing justice to it, and I am just thrilled to hear about these community conversations that are happening. So as always, that's the whole purpose of the Learning Curve. Please take the information you heard today and use it in your conversations. Ask the questions. It's okay to say, I don't know what to say or I don't understand, because together is how we bring this city together. And together is how we walk through the learning curve. Until next time, everyone. Bye. Bye.