TLC Goes Deep into Lewis Deep Democracy Method

Hi everybody, my name is Sandy Boucher and welcome back to the Learning Curve. Gotta admit, this show just keeps getting better and better, at least from my perspective. And I sure hope you agree. I'm running into community members all the time that are talking about how comfortable they are with this format, how much they're learning from the show and just how many friends they've told about it. So please, if you believe this is a good use of your time, and I truly believe it is, make sure to tell your friends about it. It's all about learning together and walking through this learning curve together. That's what's going to make a difference in this city. So again, this time it's a little bit different because you actually know who my guest is today if you watch this, the last episode, Angela Golot is here again to talk about the Lewis Method of Deep Democracy. Now, racial tension in our city is nothing new and I definitely do not want to minimize the effects. And there are a lot of well meaning, hard working people in our city trying to make a difference. But it's pretty easy to get frustrated when it feels like nothing is changing. And that's why I'm so excited about this show, because I truly believe that this method is that key, is that missing link that can truly change how we speak with each other and can really build sustainable bridges and relationships. So if you're watching and you don't think that this method applies to you or your situation, you might be surprised because this is not just for those racial tension areas. For example, I just want to give you five examples here of where this method is incredibly effective. For example, if your project team is trying to make a key decision, but that one group member strongly disagrees with all the solutions that are presented, well then the Lewis Deep Democracy method is for you. If you teach a class that is dominated by a few vocal students while others remain quiet no matter how enthusiastically you urge them to speak up, then you need to hear about this method. If you have factions within your community who are not able to come to the table together, we've seen this time and time again, then this method can work. If you and your partner are tiptoeing around the unspeakable elephant in the room, or if you and someone you're trying to communicate with are just of two minds on absolutely everything, then the information in this episode is for you. So as always, grab your coffee, get in your comfy chair and get ready as we walk again through the learning curve.

Welcome back everybody. Again, it's Sandy Boucher.

And we're at the Learning Curve with Angela Golot. Thank you so much for agreeing to come out again.

Thank you so much.

These guys, my guests, are. Are just fantastic. Because this is not our comfort zone.

No.

This is not what we dream of doing at home when we're relaxing. But you guys are so amazing. So thank you. And I think we're both on the same page with how important this is to discuss. Right.

So, Angela, you're born and raised Thunder Bay.

Yeah.

Trying to remember back to the last time.

Thunder Bay.

Okay. And did a lot of traveling and you were driven to train in this method. So just to remind the audience, it's the Lewis method of Deep Democracy. So where are the origins of this method? First and foremost, let's start there. Where did this come from?

So originally it started with a fellow named Arnold Mendel. And he is a physicist and a Jungian analyst. Very complicated stuff there. I'm like, I don't even know what that is. So anyway, thank goodness his teaching got simplified by a woman named Myrna Lewis into this process called the Lewis Deep Democracy Method. And it was born out of post apartheid South Africa. She was asked by a company, the main utility company actually, in South Africa, to come in and help resolve the racial tensions that needed to be addressed as they moved from apartheid to democracy. And so they had a staff of 5,000 people who had functioned under apartheid rules. And they all of a sudden, overnight had to move into this new way of being in relationship. And so Myrna Lewis and her husband created this system whereby you could go in and kind of facilitate transformation in a fairly quick and dramatic way within a group. Because it's so direct.

Right.

And in the situation you just described. So at work, like I'm listening to you describe that, and I'm trying to imagine. So under apartheid, you had some pretty interesting opinions of people of other races. And then all of a sudden the government changes and democracy comes in. And now we have to treat everyone fairly. But what do you do with those ingrained opinions and feelings?

Yeah, I mean, the opinions were also law. So you can just imagine how deep those were. And to have to undo them was quite a big proposition. So, yeah, this method was really meant to kind of start to pull away at those beliefs.

There is a large part of me that takes so much hope from that, that if South Africa can move through this Canada, we can do this.

Yeah, there's been a lot of connections drawn to what is happening in Canada and the indigenous people in Canada that it's not that much different than apartheid.

Yeah.

And it is a process.

Yes.

If there's one thing that keeps coming up in my discussions, because I know it's frustrating and I know it's exhausting, trust me, as an Indigenous woman in Thunder Bay or in Canada. Yeah, trust me, I get that it's exhausting. But it's not going to be one thing that changes this. It's not going to be one conversation or one event. It's a process. It's a learning curve.

Right.

And we're going through it together.

Totally.

And I've yet to meet someone that's comfortable, so that's reassuring that we're all kind of trying to figure out our way.

And the discomfort, as we talked about before, is such an important part of the process. And Arnold Mandel actually has written a book called Sitting in the Fire. It's one of my favorite books that he's written. And it's all about being able to sit in that discomfort. That's what's really important about this process, is that people, as we engage in transformation, whether it be with our partner in community or organization, that we have to learn to be comfortable sitting in that fire, which is really uncomfortable. But it's that place of, like, opportunity, and things are falling apart in that place. Things are becoming visible that maybe we've been too uncomfortable to talk about. We're taking risks in that place. Everything's kind of being undone. But as fire does, it creates space for new life. And so it's almost like learning how to be in that space for as long as possible. The discomfort is doing something important.

And that's where. And it's amazing how often I find.

Being Ojibwe and being raised in that culture is an advantage to me in this time because we do sharing circles.

We get comfy with uncomfortable conversations and.

Hearing rough, if not horrific things a long time ago. So I'm totally cool in that. The one thing that's new for us is doing that with non indigenous people.

Right.

So that's where our discomfort comes in. And then I look at my mainstream culture, and especially in the business world or any kind of job environment, you're taught emotions. No, they stop at the door. They do not come in where we think holistically.

Right.

So there's so many different. And I see my colleagues struggling. As soon as emotion comes into it, they want to crack the joke or they want to lighten the mood, and it's like, no, we got to sit in the fire.

Yeah, absolutely. And evoking the Emotion that is involved in the conversation is actually a really important part. Part of this process. It's about kind of revealing all the different pieces of it. There's also, like, this term of, like, allowing a space for the ghosts in a group to appear. And so those are often the unspoken things that we don't talk about, but that are functioning within the group and really creating a space for those to show up again and become visible. So if we're constantly trying to smooth things over or make everybody feel comfortable, we miss the opportunity to see the underlying things that are at play and that are constantly affecting our ability to move forward. Basically, the whole philosophy behind this is we have to go into conflict to see what the conflict is about and what's precipitating it in order to be able to acknowledge it and therefore create any sort of resolution to move forward. So if we try to move forward without addressing the conflict, we'll always kind of cycle back to, like, having the same conversations over and over again because we never actually get to voice what's really wrong in the circumstance.

You end up staying at that superficial level where nothing's changing. Right. And you need to go deeper. Right. I don't think. I don't even know if it's possible to have a comfortable conversation about racism unless you're at that very superficial level. If it's not getting uncomfy, you're not getting to the change totally.

And, like, what a great, actually, like, indicator that you're suggesting to people is, like, almost like, go into the conversation to a degree in which you are feeling slightly uncomfortable, so you know something's happening. And if you're hanging out up here, probably you're not getting kind of deep enough into the conversation. So look for that sweet spot where you're able to sit in the discomfort Challenge.

That was a challenge.

So now I discovered this or was introduced to this. What was this called? Conversations across the. The Racial Divide. And it was held at Lakehead University back in February. So did you know of it before.

Then or at that event as well?

I went to the evening event, which was held in another community space, and it was hosted by Aftab Irfan. She was the facilitator and the woman who I went to study with. I had never heard of it before, actually. And so, yeah, it was my first opportunity to. To kind of experience that method. And it was just so powerful that I felt. It was the first time I felt like I was a part of something that actually had the potential to really make those ghosts visible. To create a space where we could talk about these things and potentially move forward in some meaningful way.

Exactly. And for me, calling an event across the racial divide. Yeah, you can bet my butt's gonna be there.

Right? Cause it's like, whoa, I think I.

Need to be in on this discussion just to make sure that the both sides of a discussion show up. Right. And like you, I had never heard of it before, and I was blown away by the questions, like, we're talking about those ghosts.

Right.

This was not superficial, and. And I was just blown away. But you were blown away to a whole different level because you chose to train in it. So.

Yeah. And training. In no way do I feel like I'm an expert on this issue. I don't have the lived experience to speak from. I'm doing my best to read and learn and connect with community and listen to Indigenous voices. And so what I do have the ability to do is facilitate, and I'm used to doing that. And I have communities that I'm connected to, which I felt like I could call into the conversation. And so my contribution is to just simply create a space for dialogue to happen. Yeah. Yeah. I just definitely heard that call of like, okay, so who's going to do this after Aftab leaves? She doesn't live in Thunder Bay. Who's going to continue these conversations? And I just could hear in my own heart that, well, I have the ability to do that, so do it.

I'd be going, shh, voice.

You need to go away now.

Which is not true. We know I facilitate events, too.

And I just want to be crystal clear.

I may be an Indigenous woman in this country and definitely experienced my share of racism or discrimination, but I don't consider myself an expert in any way. And I'm not sure, again, that a person like that exists. They may be an expert in one key area, but not nest. Definitely not across the spectrum. And I don't think that should ever be the goal. That it's a journey and that process, and we're learning with these discussions. And I think the key is being open to learning and open to hearing. Right.

There's so many voices to hear from. Every time I read a new article or read a new book or I'm connected with someone locally who's doing really great work, they're bringing a new perspective that's really important and that I haven't heard through anyone before. And in some ways, that bridges really well with this method in that the whole point of this method is to invite everybody's voice into the circle. And, you know, it's called deep democracy. And it's called deep because it goes beyond regular democracy where the majority rules. It's deep because it creates a space for the minority voices to be heard and accounted for and to really bring the wisdom from all the voices in the circle into the conversation.

That's amazing. Nice timing, girl. That was fantastic. When we come back after the break, we're actually going to go deep about this method and actually talk about some of the specifics, because if you, if.

You ever have a chance to attend.

One of these events, please do that. But we are going to give you some more information when we come back.

So go refill your coffee or your.

Water and get back in that comfy.

Chair, and we'll see you in a few moments.

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Learning Curve.

It's Sandi Boucher with Angela Golot, and we're talking about the Lewis method of deep democracy. And before we jump into what that entails, I just wanted to send the kudos out to the agencies that were.

Involved in that cross the racial divide.

Because there are people doing really good work in this community and trying to make a difference. So the organizations that were involved included Diversity, Thunder Bay, the Fort William First Nation, Lakehead University's Office of Aboriginal Initiative, Nishnawiaski Development Fund, the City of Thunder Bay's Anti Racism and Respect Campaign, Racialized Young Professionals, and the Youth Social Infrastructure Collaborative. And it was an amazing event. So kudos to you guys.

So this method, what is it like?

We're alluding to it.

They're wondering, what does these events, what are they going to do to me?

Well, one of the things that really struck me about the first one is the part of the format where it's called the soft shoe shuffle. And so everyone is on their feet. And I love that everyone gets to participate in this part of the conversation, whether or not you use your voice to speak your perspective or you use your body in order to participate. So for the soft shoe shuffle, somebody gets the microphone and there's a question that is asked at the event we went to or the one that I went to anyway. It was, what do you have to say about racism in Thunder Bay? So it's a pretty broad question, and it was tossed out to the community. And so someone gets the microphone and they say something from their perspective about racism in Thunder Bay. And everyone else in the room gets to either move closer to that person or farther away from that person, depending on how much they agree or disagree or think something differently than what that person had said. And so you get immediately a real visual representation of where people are at in relation to different ideas. I also felt there was something powerful about standing next to people as they were sharing their experiences. You actually got to represent your being with somebody. And I really appreciated that because it's very rare that we get to do that. We're usually not there or we're separated by time or space or whatever. And so to be in the same space and be with someone while they're sharing their experience was really a big deal. And also demonstrating to other people who say things that you don't agree with just how much you don't agree with it. So there's not like kind of this false passive support which is kind of happening around racism and has been happening around racism in Thunder Bay.

Exactly. I love the fact that you couldn't really be passive.

Like, you had to.

Okay, do you agree or not? Where do you want to stand?

Right.

And honestly, what it reminded me, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in communities, Indigenous communities that practice traditional election models, especially Treaty 3, which is my area, they don't do secret ballots for elections. You literally stand behind the person you're voting for, so you have to own it. So you can't say you're gonna support someone and then go stand behind someone else while you can. But everyone would know you did it. So there's an honesty. And you know, that veil is gone. You can't hide anymore. Exactly.

Totally. Yeah. You're accountable. You're accountable to the community and the way you're participating in it. And I heard from a few people, actually, after our first event that we had in the beginning of August, how they were reflecting on how interesting it was to notice their body's urges around where to stand and becoming really aware of themselves. Like, oh, that's interesting that I feel this way. I hadn't really thought about that before. So it also makes visible our own opinions that are kind of implicit or just like, you know, we don't have to think about them necessarily. We don't think about them. We don't give enough time to them why we feel that way or how much we feel that way. But when you have to move your body in relation, it kind of makes you visible to yourself as well as to your community.

Literally.

No hiding here.

No hiding.

Now.

I was at the afternoon event, you were at the evening event. So I know for me, I had gone to this event, and I Had.

Promised myself I wasn't going to speak up, that I was going to let, you know, just let someone else have the mic.

And I was just going to observe.

So I don't know what happened in.

The evening event, but in the afternoon event, a lot of people chose not.

To take part in that exercise.

They kind of just observed, whereas there.

Were people moving in. Honestly, I think I made it to.

Like, the second question. I was like, I gotta get up there and move with the people. So like you said that call that you gotta stand up for what you believe in.

Yeah, there was lots of participation at the one I went to and then the one I hosted in August, I kind of just invited everybody to stand up at the beginning. So nobody was not participating, which is excellent, I think. Yeah. And you get to move. You know what's kind of interesting is, like, so say I even say something with the microphone, I make a statement. I can also disagree with myself because there's so much gray, you know, Like, I love that it allows space for things to be. For there to be multiple truths at play. And so no one needs to harden. It allows an opportunity for people actually to soften in their position because we agree or disagree in various degrees in relation to what people said. And so you can say something and then immediately disagree with yourself or, like, really agree much more strongly with the thing, the person that speaks after you says. And so it allows you to stay fluid instead of hardening. In our position, I think that's really important in terms of addressing conflict and being in community, building community.

And you just touched on something that is so perfect because when you said, you allowed it to be fluid. And that's literally with the movement of the body. So it's, again, not just verbal, not just thoughts, but the physical was added in as well.

Absolutely.

So it was so powerful. Okay, so what else?

So this kind of second stage that often happens after the soft shoe shuffle is that. Well, in the soft shoe shuffle, you might notice that kind of a polarity develops. And so this happened probably in your gathering, it happened in mine. And so as the facilitator, we're watching for what is the polarity that's happening? And for the evening one that I went to, it was about, is it important to acknowledge and recognize everybody's individual experience? So recognizing individuality, or is it important that we have this conversation from a place of unity? Are we actually all the same in some way? And so this real polarity showed up in the conversation. And so the facilitator aftab said, okay, I see this polarity. And now you move to. She actually separates the room. So when you find that polarity, the room is separated, one group over here and another group over there. And the idea here is that it's almost like everything that we've ever wanted to say from our perspective, almost is like having like an arrow in your quiver. Like you've got all these kind of grievances that you've never had a chance to say. And until we get to say them, we're kind of harboring this resentment. And so we can't ever move forward as a community. And so by separating the room, you make really visible what the difference is. And then one side of the room gets to basically, they call it throwing the arrows. You get to keep talking and throwing the arrows at the other side of the room. From your perspective with what are your grievances? Airing them and airing them and airing them until this group has kind of exhausted itself, has nothing left to say. So everybody gets ample time to speak to you. There's no rush to this process. It's all important. So they get to say, and then this group gets a chance to say and throw their arrows. And then it might even go back and forth a few times just to make sure everybody has said everything they need to say. You can also participate on both sides. Again, there might be a part of this that you believe and a part of this that you believe. So you can speak from both perspectives. And actually, that's a really great way to see multiple perspectives in anything anyway, is debate both perspectives. After that is done, we kind of acknowledge and contemplate on what are the arrows that particularly struck you in the conversation. Like, there might be things that people have said that you've heard before or they don't really impact you, but there's probably a few things people said that were like, oh, I didn't think of that. That feels important. It really is affecting in some way. And so reflect on what hit you. And that's probably the thing that you need to be particularly aware of. And so we do this exercise where you kind of pull out the arrow that hit you and become aware of. Now that you know that thing, you have that new insight and purpose perspective, how might you move that insight into some kind of action?

Wow.

So it's immediately kind of action oriented.

Okay, that's powerful. I'm not sure I'd want to be at that when at the afternoon event, it became indigenous and non indigenous. That's the polarity and what she asked Us was she gave the microphone to the indigenous side first. First. And that was so huge to us, because if there's one thing you hear over and over is no one hears us. No one hears us. So that in itself was amazing. But what she asked was, what do you need them to hear?

Yeah.

Right. It.

If you could wave that magic wand and get them to hear one thing, you said, what do you need them to hear? Or what do you need them to do?

Right.

So it was. So it took it from an attack mode to almost a pleading mode, like, please hear us. And then she went to the other side of the room and said, what did you hear? Like, what resonated with you? And, boy, did we need to hear the answers. Because to hear that we were heard was so healing and so powerful. And because you saw on people's faces, faces like, I had no idea.

Like. And.

And they were in shock. And we could see how genuine and authentic they were. It was incredibly powerful, which is why Angela's on the show talking about this. Right.

So amazing.

Yeah, totally amazing. Powerful.

And, you know, I should have prefaced a little bit in terms of the format, too. Part of what allows that to happen, that kind of magic in that space, is there's kind of three main guiding principles in doing this process. And the first one is to be aware that nobody has the whole truth.

Exactly.

Everybody has a piece of the truth. And so everybody's voices have a place in the circle. And some voices need to be amplified, actually in the circle. The second is that we're having the conversation because we're both really invested in the relationship. So if you're not invested, you know, there's no point going into conflict if you're not invested about making. Finding resolution in some way. So we're even here because we're invested in this conversation. And the third one is now just slipping my mind, of course, is what is the third one?

You have to go to an event to find out the.

Oh, the whole point is for your own learning.

Exactly.

Is that it's not about sharing your perspective and convincing anyone of anything. It's about, what am I going to learn here? What am I going to learn about myself? What am I going to learn about how I can move into action in a different way.

Exactly. It is so powerful really quickly.

We're running out of time.

We can so talk about this forever. Do you think, in your opinion, that this method would help in Thunder Bay?

I mean, I do. That's why I went to learn it as soon as I experienced it. I felt like Thunder Mane needs a forum like this, something to hold us together while we go through this really messy stuff. It is definitely not the only thing that needs to happen. It's not the only format and the only kind of conversation we need to have. But it feels like it. It opens up a new opportunity we've not had yet. And so I'm really, I'm really hopeful about that, starting those conversations and, and creating a container for it to happen with some integrity and purpose.

Angela has an event coming up on 9-11-11. Yes, another community discussion. And if you need any information on this method, please either get a hold of me and I'll connect you with Angela or get hold of her directly. The information will be on the Facebook page. Thank you again for joining us. And I look forward to the next time you show up in the learning curve.

Bye.

Bye.