TLC - Why Don't They (Indigenous People) Just Get a Job?

Hi everybody, my name is Sandy Boucher and welcome back to the Learning Curve. As always, before I start talking about today's show, I have to thank you for your feedback. The emails, the texts, the comments keep coming in and I totally appreciate it. This show is for you. So we want to hear about those topics of confusion. That conversation that you just don't understand, just send it in to me. Don't worry about how you word it. I know that you're asking out of curiosity and interest and I'm going to respect that. So if you have a topic that you want to learn more about, send me an email at Sandy Boucheraun C. Now, today's topic is definitely one of interest and a popular topic. I don't know how many places I've been or how many different conversations I've had where someone's going to ask that question, why don't they just get a job? We're talking about indigenous people and honestly when I hear that question, it just sounds sums up for me, the lack of knowledge, the lack of understanding and how we have to get better at getting that information out there. So for example, let's talk about that stereotypical indigenous person on a community. Let's imagine for a second that they make it past the fact that indigenous people receive less money for their education than anyone else at those public levels. So even though that happens, they make it past that. Imagine that they make it past the fact that our communities are suffering from a lack of parenting skills and that's thanks to the residential schools. Our parents didn't have parents, so they lost that vital connection. But we're going to imagine that this young man or young woman made it even past that. Made it past the threats of addictions and abuse that unfortunately are far too common in our communities. Made it to high school even though they had to leave home and go.

Stay in a strange city with strangers.

And leave their families behind. Made it through high school, maybe even post secondary. Today's topic, we're going to imagine that person that's now ready to get a job. But we're going to discuss something that just isn't discussed often enough. Just how hard it is for an indigenous person to work in a mainstream environment, whether it's a mainstream business or a non profit agency. No one who knows me considers me shy or disempowered. But I have experienced that. When I moved to Toronto after 20 years working in indigenous non profit agencies.

I got a great job with a.

Mainstream non indigenous for profit business. The fact that that was the very first time, believe it or not, that I got fired. And even more surprising is the fact that I was incredibly happy that I did. My lack of success had nothing to do with my job skills. I had successfully worked and climbed the ladder of success for 20 years, but.

Still I struggled to be accepted in.

Mainstream and to understand that culture. That's what we're going to be talking about today with my amazing guest. And I can't wait to introduce you to her. We're going to talk about that challenge and, and what mainstream businesses and agencies can do to try to help us out because we need the jobs, you need the workforce. So together as always, sit back, grab your coffee, get in your favorite chair as you and I once again walk through the learning curve.

Hi, everybody.

My name is Sandy Boucher and welcome.

Back to the Learning Curve.

I promised you an amazing guest and I'm going to deliver. Even though she's so humble, she may not describe herself that way. So I want to introduce you to Kathleen Saudo. She is the employee relations manager for the Salvation Army Ontario Great Lakes Division. And thanks for coming out today, Kathleen.

Thanks for having me.

We have an amazingly important topic to.

Talk about today and I'm so glad.

Kathleen actually suggested the topic. So thank you.

Because as soon as you said it, I was like, yes, please, let's get that out there.

Because so many people just don't understand.

Right, right.

So before we get into all of.

That, I always ask because we want to know about you. This is about building relationships and actually.

Getting to know people.

So are you from Thunder Bay?

Yes, I was born and raised in Thunder Bay. My community is Lacked Milk First Nation. And then I moved away from Thunder bay for about 10 years. Had a hard time finding work like a lot of people. So I moved out west. I lived in Edmonton for about 10 years with my children and I just recently came back to Thunder Bay about two years ago.

Okay, you came back.

Yes.

That seems to be a theme that resonates through all my guests. So I like to believe that means there's hope here.

Right. That we know we have challenges and we have to talk about the challenges.

But we are coming back. So there's a bunch of strong people here to work on those issues. So that's awesome. So you work for the Salvation army.

But you also own your own company, Northern Winds Training and employment consulting.

That interests me and I honestly don't know a lot about your company.

So what do you do with Northern Winds? I do a lot of training, facilitating employment Related things. So right now I'm currently a Red Cross training partner. So I provide first aid training and certification. I'm also a certified food safety instructor.

Wow.

So I provide that. And that's nationwide. Right. So I can provide training that way. And then I also, because my education and work experience is within the human resources management field, I provide education, awareness, support for people looking for employment, resume writing, interview skills, developing those kind of things. When it comes to employers, I can assist employers in developing their policies and procedures. HR related, human rights related, occupational health and safety related. So it encompasses quite a lot.

A huge, not only a huge area.

But an incredibly important one. I mean, I've worked in a lot of places and with a lot of agencies and communities over the years and policies are underappreciated. People don't understand why they need them until it hits the fan, to put it bluntly. And then you're wishing you had the policy to guide you. And at that point it's usually too late. Right now you're in a situation you don't want to be in. So I can totally understand why you'd be interested in this topic.

Right. Just from personal experience and bringing my own perspective as an Indigenous woman and an HR professional to the, to the workforce, to the employment places. And that's something that's quite often overlooked. How do we adapt our policies to include the Indigenous workforce to make them feel welcome?

Yeah. And I do cross cultural communications training and I'm always trying to explain to people that if you want to ensure that your policies are inclusive of Indigenous people, ask Indigenous people.

Right, exactly.

And that's not because you're not qualified or you don't have the education or the experience.

It is a different cultural lens, it's a different way of looking at things. And the safest way, if you're developing policies, it's because you want to be on safe ground. The safest way to do that is ask someone who looks through that cultural lens. Right. Because it is different. So you alluded to that you had personal experience in this area.

So have you worked?

Well, I guess. Salvation Army. You're working for mainstream now, but I assume you have in the past as well. And what kind of challenges did you face?

I have worked. My entire work history has been in mainstream.

Oh, wow. Okay.

There's only one instance where I've worked for an Aboriginal organization. So right From I was 13 years old having my first employment opportunity until now, and I'm 43, so that's quite a long time of work experience. I guess so. Recent experiences. It's scary going in there. It's a lot of structure. It's. You know, even with. Even before you get the job, when you go for the interview, it's normal to be nervous. I had to really train myself to look at the interviewer in the eyes because it was just common for me to look down or speak quietly or different things that are cultural, really. And then when I got the job, depending on which place I was working, adapting to their policies, adapting to how they did things, adapting to the work environment, understanding that people watched me, they counted how many times I went to the washroom, how long it took me to go to the washroom.

Wow.

Oh, yes. Performance evaluations I've experienced where it was written right. In my performance evaluation that I was too visibly aboriginal, so I need to remove my earrings and pictures of my children from my desk were found offensive with that specific employer.

The activism part of me just went, excuse me.

What?

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

Okay. So I'm going to ask a silly question, but I'm not an HR professional, and I assume a lot of our audience isn't. So from a strictly HR perspective, can you say something like that in a performance evaluation?

Can.

You know. Okay, I didn't think.

Definitely not.

Tell me that that is not acceptable.

That's probably the most horrible thing you could do is put it in writing. Right, Right. But even just saying it, you can't even say that.

Thank you.

It doesn't have to be in writing. So, yes, that was.

How is.

I don't even get how that's a negative.

But then that's that different cultural lens.

Again, it's a different cultural lens. So. So even with pictures of my children, I was asked to remove them because they were in the regalia in those pictures. So the person I shared an office with thought I should have asked if this was okay or not.

Whoa.

I don't even want to guess where that's coming from.

But, I mean.

But that was her perception. She found it pushing my culture.

Exactly.

On other people. And that's the way she perceived it at that time.

Exactly. Meanwhile, we know that wearing our jewelry. And your jewelry is amazing, by the way, that cultural pride is one of the ways that you undo the oppression. Right. It's actually a very healthy thing for us to do, and. And that needs to be encouraged. And our youth need to see that if we're ever going to get past all these challenges that we're still dealing with. Right. So it's actually very much a positive.

Wow.

That just blows my mind. But I think. I don't know how you felt, but it's, like, widespread.

It's.

It's obviously a different culture. For example, when I worked for indigenous agencies, if the most horrific thing happens and you lose a family member, I happen to be executive director when my mom passed away. And I am so thankful that I was working for an indigenous agency then, because in our culture, you bring all of you to work and all of you to the table. Right. Whereas in mainstream, it always seems like they want your professional side. But leave your spirituality out. Leave your personal. For God's sakes.

You can't cry at the office. Right.

You're supposed to very much compartmentalize. So when I lost my mom, it.

Was amazing because I think I ended.

Up having, like, six weeks off because it was so traumatic. And I would try going to the office, and I just wasn't ready. And they would be the ones that said, no, you got to go home. You need to take care of this, and we'll be here when you get back. Which is beautiful.

It is. Yeah.

But then I see my colleagues who are in mainstream, and because by policy, this person is not deemed to be a close family member, you get the afternoon or you get the third, three days. And my heart always goes out to them because they feel the same pain, but they don't have systems to support that. So it was those kind of things that just made my head explode. So. Makes sense you run into those things.

It is, and it's not possible. It depends on the employer. Some employers are more flexible within their own policies and are able to adapt to support indigenous employees. Some they have their policies, they're larger organizations and are not able to really stretch things as far as they can, as other places would. But what you can do is talk to your hr. You should be able to talk to them about it, see what can be worked out with regards to flexibility. Can we flex some of your sick time? Do you have bank time or lieu time to use even within your management team? Looking at, should we spend that $150 sending flowers to this family? Is that of value to them? Would it be better to send them maybe a gift card or give them another day off or two days off, whatever the equivalent is?

Excellent suggestions. Right.

Yeah.

You can tell HR is your field, because I'm sitting here going, great.

I never thought of that.

And great idea. So. Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. Even with my current employers. So we're looking at adapting. How do we adapt our employment assistance programs to best Support indigenous employees, where most employers will contract a counseling agency to do this and you have one way of counseling and can we. The equivalent for me as an indigenous woman for counselor is an elder.

Exactly.

So I should be able to access an elder through my EAP program or a sweat lodge or ceremony. In that way, it should be equal and equivalent. So we're looking at how do we do that and make it ensure we're accountable and have things implemented included in our policy.

You just highlighted so, so beautifully why.

HR is so important.

I mean, for the indigenous employee to have someone to go talk to. And like you said, that door should be open. But for the non indigenous employer to realize how vital that position is and having someone who can truly support the employees, that's fantastic. And I love your attitude, that solution finding attitude.

Right.

There is a way. We have certain parameters, but we gotta put on our thinking caps and find another way.

Yeah. We've got to be creative and we've got to support workplace health, mental health, and also your wellness at home. Right. Work life balance perfect. And that's with every employee, not just indigenous employees. Exactly.

We have to take a break here, but this is fantastic. And the time's flying by just like always. So go refresh that coffee and we'll be right back with Kathleen Saldo and.

We'Re talking about getting that job and the challenges.

Thank you.

Hi, everybody, and welcome back to the Learning curve. As I said earlier, we're here with Kathleen Sato and we're talking about HR.

Challenges and what it's like.

The challenges are like for indigenous people working in mainstream. So you've done a lot of work in mainstream. You're working in an HR capacity now. So I love the fact that you have these solutions.

So can you think of. I can imagine there's going to be.

Employers watching this and I know a lot of people are interested in engaging with the indigenous workforce, but they're nervous.

They don't know how best they want to be successful. They want their employee to be successful.

But obviously they have a job to do too. We got to find that balance, that middle ground.

So what kind of things would you.

Suggest that they consider right from the get go?

I would really honestly recommend and suggest they read through the 94 calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

Excellent.

And specifically, when you look at number 92, that deals with corporate business and there is a call to action for every business in Canada to step up to educate their employees, to ensure their management employees and all staff receive education, training on the history of aboriginal peoples within Canada to ensure they consult with the indigenous communities and to ensure that every indigenous person has equal opportunity for job success. Right. So and when I talk about that, it's not just about equal, it's about equity. Right. So equality and equity is different. And so from an HR perspective, again people, I often get comments like why do you think you get special treatment? And it's not about special treatment, it's about evening the playing field. Right. So we all have those positions we want to apply for. Do we have the jobs and skills and abilities to do it? Probably. We just have to think outside the box. Right. Understand that your skills are adaptable. Most skills you learn adaptable and can be applied in different situations. So form your job descriptions that way. Provide in house training, look at the potential of a person, which you would do with anyone, and see how you can build and grow. Help them grow within your organization.

Exactly. I always say I will hire someone with the right attitude over the skill set any day of the week because.

I can give you skills, I can.

Train you to have skills if you have that attitude that you're willing to learn. And you're going to get comfy with me and ask questions so that you can further that learning. Absolutely. But you touched on something incredibly important and that's equity and being equal. So the one I always come up with is actually access. And I've run into so many businesses that just without thinking. And that's the problem. Right. We do things the way we always did and they didn't work before, they don't work now.

Right.

So I run into these businesses that just without thinking they're going to run a job ad in the paper, not even considering what demographic buys the paper. Like if you're trying to hire a younger worker or maybe an indigenous worker and they don't necessarily buy the paper, they're not going to see your job ad, they're not even going to have access to it. Right. So you might be assuming they're not interested in working in your business, but they didn't even know you were hiring.

Right?

Right. So it's those kind of things that you have to look at. And transferable skills is what I used to call it in employment and training.

Right.

And I totally agree that if you can manage your home budget and you've been doing that and feeding, you know, four kids with this minimal budget, well, you can manage an office budget or your program budget. Right. You have the skills, just maybe you look at it differently. Right. So I totally agree that we have to look at that. So going back to your personal experience. Mine, mine didn't end well.

Like, I mean if someone asked me.

What would have helped? Well, applying for a different job, which is a horrible way to look at it. But in looking what helped in those situations, was there anything that helped you when you were in those challenging employment situations?

Again, going back to my culture, so speaking to my elders, speaking to my father, my mother about what I should do and they gave me well rounded answers. You know, you either want to speak up or you put your head down and deal with it. Right. And that's ultimately the choice you have, right. Or you walk away, you look for, you find another job, do you want to work there anymore? And my. I've had several different situations, right. But the one where I did not walk away did not end well. I ended up walking away eventually, but I guess it ended well. I learned a lot in that perspective and I called the employer to task and I lodged a human rights complaint and I was successful in that complaint. Have I effected long term change? I don't know. I think I've put them on alert where they know now they need to examine their policies and procedures, they need to educate their staff.

Excellent.

Right. So in that part I think I have affected some change.

But and again, I'm just so on the same page with you today. And you touched on something incredibly important, especially to indigenous people. And I'm going to assume a lot of different people. Is that honoring that spirit?

So sometimes, like you said, do you.

Want to speak up or do you want to leave this job or do you want to just let it go?

And you have to ask yourself that question. Because sometimes I know people that it's like, you know what, it's not worth.

It, Just gonna let it go. It was something minor or, you know, I'll find another way. And that might be okay in the moment, but five years later, this is now an issue I need to speak up on. So I think in a lot of cases, and you feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that's a very personal decisions. You have to decide, you know, do you want to fight this or.

Or not. Right. And it. I had one elder tell me that even with her residential school experience, she never shared that with her children because we were not meant to carry that pain.

Right.

For a lengthy time. Right. The way we deal with things, we have pain, we cry. We're not meant as human beings to hold that pain. And when I looked at My own experiences going through a complaint process, even within your own organization, that's a lengthy period of time to hold that pain and have to go over it. So from an HR perspective, again, I look at it and say, how can we reduce this amount of time to move forward, to find resolution, to provide healing? As an indigenous person, I'm not supposed to hold that pain. We're not created for that reason. So. And again, even when you look with human rights complaints, those take a long time, depending on where you live in Canada.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Right. It shouldn't take that long. So we have to really look at how can we not speed things up and lose value, but we want to. How can we change it so we can provide the person healing quicker.

Yeah.

And I know for me now I.

Have to keep in mind that I'm.

A pretty outspoken person, so staying quiet is not going to be my natural go to answer. But it makes me sad when I hear that someone didn't speak up. Because even like you said, you're not supposed to carry that pain. And I don't want you to wait until it's something that is so huge that you're forced to deal with it, like talk about it in the beginning and, and work together. Right. Like this. And, and it's not because you're attacking someone or complaining. It's just FYI, you know, this kind of makes me uncomfortable and here's why.

Right.

I had to share that. Actually, funny story that you may be able to relate to. I was at one of my many committee meetings recently and I just love when they do what they call the round table. They want to go around and get an update from everyone, but they. You have a two minute limit.

Right.

And I always kind of giggle at that.

And it's like, okay, you realize when you ask for me to share, you don't get to put a disclaimer on that. But only for two minutes. Right. You either want to hear what I have to say or you don't. Right. Like let's. And just from a cultural perspective that's very controlling and it comes across, it makes me uncomfortable. So if we don't have time, then I'm not going to share. But I'm not going to reduce what I share down to some minimal things. So it fits a clock. My conversation's more important than the clock. Right?

Right.

Having said that, I'm about to bring this episode to an end because the clock says I have to do that. Right. It did go by so fast. But valuable information. And thank you so much for coming out and sharing that. Now I just want to go for coffee with you and talk for, like, the next three days because I have all these questions.

Right. That would be fantastic. So thank you so, so much. I'd be willing to bet you may have some questions coming out of this episode, so feel free to send me an email. Sandy Boucher, ca I have contact with Kathleen or I'll make sure that we get those answers back to you. And as always, I ask you to please take the information that you heard.

Today and and ponder it, think about it, and use it in your conversations.

We can use this new information to.

Build bridges and bring down those walls that separate us.

And that's exactly why you and I have chosen to walk through the learning curve.

Take care of yourself. Bye. Bye.