When Two Friends Experience Very Different Things in the Same Room (WMT with Julia Gibson)

Foreign.

Hello, everybody. It's Sandi Boucher here once again with Walk My Talk, my brand new podcast. The reality is, for years I've been telling my followers, whether it's seminar participants or my followers on YouTube or whatever platform, that I thoroughly and completely believe that indigenous and non indigenous people can work together respectfully and authentically. And of course, Blue is going to join the recording here. And then probably about six, seven months ago, I realized, wait a minute, I can prove that. And that's when I created this podcast. It was all about introducing you to the amazing non indigenous people. People I get to work with. And you probably recognize her. Julia Gibson is back again today. So Julia and I. I had the honor and the privilege of helping Julia write a book. Her. And it was just such a phenomenal experience. The book is now launched. It's out there. We'll make sure to include all the links so you can get a copy. We even have a book club scheduled for November. But what we wanted to talk to you about today is what we're calling the next chapter. Not only what we have in the works. Lou is taking out my microphone. Hang on. Blue is in desperate need of some loving here. Not only are we gonna tell you what we've got in the works, but we want to talk to you about our experiences since the book launched, or I guess including the book launch, and since then, because Julia's been bus. Promoting the book and we just. And on top of that, we're friends and we just wanted to catch up, so we just invited you along, so. Hello, Julia. How are you doing?

Good morning or whatever it is, wherever you are.

Is it morning for you?

It is morning for me.

What time is it?

9:30Am okay, so 12:30 here.

So it's lunchtime for me. So what's the difference? It's 9:30 for you.

Yes. Three hours. So you're on Eastern time, which is the same as New York.

Yeah. So if I start work at 5, that's like 2am Your time. I promise not to send an email.

I don't mind.

Until later. It's all good. All good. So you're doing good?

Yes, yes. He says. I'm gonna. I'm gonna view differently so I can see you and myself together. But why do I want to do that? Why not? Because then we're sort of in the same room. It looks like more like.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Like a gorgeous sunny day behind you. You know it is. I just realized something. I want to go off topic for a second. I'm gonna Ignore blue. Because the reality is I think nowadays everyone's a little, I don't know, apprehensive when it comes to news. I think for most of us we definitely question the source a little bit more, make sure what kind of slant there is to this or whatever. And you're in California, you're in la, aren't you?

Yep.

Okay, so at the center, ground zero. Okay, so that's what I was going to ask you because we heard and saw in the news about the ICE raids. So those are real. That's actually happening.

It's happening. But there's a lot of resistance and pushback too.

True.

People are showing up in different communities, not their own necessarily to bear witness and to document and to warn people and to provide, you know, whatever services are possible. So that's really. And also our mayor and our governor.

Yeah.

Have been very, very strong in pushing back against this.

Okay, so for you as a person who lives there, if you were to leave home and you're going to go to the grocery store or wherever else you're going to go, do you see a difference? Like do you see these people or.

No, I haven't so far. I don't, I don't go a lot of places. You know, I a writer so I can stick to my own house quite a bit. I know that it's happening. I have friends who do are doing watch work. Yeah. And one thing that's been noticeable is that if you go somewhere like let's say a farmer's market, typically there are a lot of immigrant looking people. They're not there as much. They're staying home, they're afraid, their kids are afraid. And a lot of times you'll see people in a family group where normally the whole family wouldn't go. Like the post office for example. You know, usually like somebody, one person's going to go to the post office, but it's like they take everyone because they don't want to leave grandma home with the kids and stuff. So it's spooky. It's very spooky. But there's been a real, there's been. Because of the pushback, you know, they're now they're concentrating on Chicago.

Yeah.

So, you know, it's, it's a lot, it's theatrics.

This is happening by the US government in a US city or cities is just mind blowing. This is going to blow your mind because as an author, I know it's going to resonate with you like it did for me just before we turned on the cameras. I was catching up on a few things on Facebook. One of my friends posted. Just the quote, right. Just the words. I always love it when they do that. And I want to get this right. What did it say? Somewhere in America, there's a Hispanic girl hiding in an attic, writing in her diary.

Yes, true that.

And I was like, if that doesn't sum it up, like, wow.

Yes.

Wow.

Yeah.

Unreal. Unreal. Okay, so now we got caught up. We on the news. So when did we do the book launch? It seems yesterday. It was July and it's October now.

I know. It went like a blur.

So three months ago, we did the two virtual events because I didn't travel to the States for reasons we just discussed. One look at my phone and Sandy goes bye bye. Not anything I want to risk. So we did two virtual events and the radio.

Yeah.

Which was amazing. So I don't know. I was going to say scale of 1 to 10, but I don't want to do that. Your thoughts on the book launch events. What did you think? Now, there were two entirely different. Like, where did the first one take place and where did the second. Because it was two different audiences.

Right. The first one took place in the meeting area of my summer community. And so a lot of people came who I knew or had read the first book that we amended, you and I. So that was a pretty good turnout. The radio interview took place at the. I mean, I was at the radio station, as you know, in person. That was really cool. And we got you on. On phone. And then the. The other in person, slash virtual for you event was at the public library in the little town that Pigeon harbor is based on in the book.

Okay.

It's the sweetest library. I mean, you saw how sweet the. The librarian is very perky. And she was the youth librarian.

Yeah.

And that was way less well attended. Even though they did a lot of. They did a lot of advertising for it. The library did. But the people that came were intent and, you know, very, very focused and, you know, appreciative, I thought.

Yeah.

So it doesn't matter. To me. It doesn't matter. The numbers. You know, I thought the. The radio interview was the highlight because I didn't know what to expect. I didn't. I mean, I didn't even know this radio station existed. I guess it's relatively new there. And, you know, the guy had said, you know, I'll give you 20 minutes. And usually that's what I. That's what I do for an interview. Is about 20 minutes, but I have two hours. And he gave us the two.

Yeah.

Because he loved us.

Yeah. What I thought was cute was he thought it was a horror book because of a glimpse of blood memory. And he didn't. Somehow the word memory had fallen off of his notice, so it just sent a glimpse of blood and. That's right. Like, when he first asked us about it, I think we were both caught off guard. I was like, no, it's not a horror novel. Right. Like, where did that come from? And then it came out in the conversation. So that was amazing.

And. But. And despite the fact that he didn't know anything about us, even though I had sent him the materials, but it was all done very last minute. I think I found out about it, like, the day before it was going to happen. And so did he because he, you know, somebody, like, suggested it and it's like, okay, the show's tomorrow, you know, so he didn't have any time to really read anything or look at anything, even though I sent him, like, the press kit or whatever. But I thought he really rolled. He rolled with it really well. And I. And, you know, listened.

Yeah.

And. And was. And asked really good questions and stuff. And a number of people that I know have listened to the whole thing.

Yeah.

Which I think is amazing. Like, you know, and have been, you know, really impressed with you and with the conversation and really, really loved it.

And just FYI to my YouTube followers specifically, I had released the interview on my channel because I wanted to share it and instantly got a copyright strike from YouTube because of the songs. Like, I. Oh, the whole thing. So what I'll do is go back and edit out the songs that were played during the break and then you'll be able to. To hear the interview because it was.

That's interesting.

But I never even thought of it. And I was like, copyright strike. Like, how can. We were talking, like, how can it be? And then when I looked into the content, it was like, oh, yeah, should have saw that coming. Right. So. Yeah. So promise to my YouTube followers I will release that. So let's go in. Or. Well, we talked about the radio interview. I think you were surprised to find out that I wasn't as comfy after the first event. That's putting.

Well, I knew. I did notice during it that you were.

Oh, did you.

Noticeably tense.

Yeah.

And I knew that something had happened that I hadn't really caught.

Yeah. And you know what? I just love that you just said that to my followers. I love that Julia pointed that Out. Because here's the reality of an indigenous, non indigenous relationship. Julia and I have worked together for five years, and often I run into people who think because they've been hanging out with indigenous people, they. They've, I don't know, got some new vision or whatever, and they totally understand everything that's going on. You're never going to. You're never going to see it through indigenous eyes or non indigenous eyes. And staying in that humility you've heard me preach for years, the humility is what builds bridges. And staying in that humility allows things like what just happened, Julia to pick up on. Okay, something's wrong that I didn't pick up on. And that's not because Julia was not paying attention or wasn't, you know, focused on the event. She absolutely was. It's the two cultural lenses and our perceptions of what's going on. So from my perspective, what happened, and this is in no way an attack on the people in that room, because I know why it happened. But remember, Julia described the first group as. These are her people. This is the summer community. These are the people that read the first book and loved it and supports Julia and all her great work. This is, you know, her, her circle and I, and we didn't think about it ahead of time. And I take ownership on that one. I. It is so easy to work with Julia. What I explained to Julia is I had brought all my walls down. This is just going to be fun. It's going to be ok. Didn't take it to the step of realizing, but it's not a whole bunch of Julia's in the room like that relationship is separate from this one. And what happened was protectiveness. Right. So these were people that thought or viewed me as a critic that I was saying something's wrong with Julia's book and how dare I do that now? And that could have happened if I was like a Martian. Another person from that community, because they love Julia's work. And I totally get that. I love the book from day one as well. But it played onto the history of being indigenous and being an indigenous woman, adding another layer. And it comes out. And I experience this on a regular basis when I'm working with non indigenous audiences. There's always one or two in the room. How dare you? How dare you have an issue with the way we do things? How. Who are you to suggest we do things differently? Very much reinforcing the colonial stay in your place. Right. Which is so common. My indigenous followers are not going to be shocked to hear this. We experience it every single day. And it wasn't until. Not the time to realize there's an issue when you're in the issue. But it was during the event that I was like, wow, I should have taken this into consideration that they love Julia and they have no idea who I am. I was this new person on the scene and. And I'm saying there was something wrong with the first book, which, I mean, I wasn't the one that said that Julia came to me because she had already received that feedback. But yeah, yeah. So that was fun. I'm being sarcastic. That was. It was unnerving for me anyways, only because I was mad at myself after that event. And I know Julie and I did a debriefing afterwards. I'm not sure if you suggested it or I did or both. But I was mad at myself that I had brought down my walls. That, you know, I should have known better. Right. Which I mean the fact that I go into things believing everyone's open and receptive to learning, I don't think that's a negative. I would rather think the best of everyone than the worst any day of the week. But it means there's occasions like that where. Okay, that didn't go as planned.

And I was mad at myself for not paying attention. I wasn't sort of paying attention in a way because I was nervous and I was listening to you and not so much listening to what people, other people said. I wasn't quite. I wasn't quite intaking the questions even that people were asking. I was focused on you and what you were saying and what I was going to say next. You know, that's come from nerves and not being comfortable.

Yeah.

So. But I was mad at myself for not hearing it fully. I heard the words that you're speaking about, but I didn't put them into context. I didn't. So I was mad at myself. And I was really mad at myself too. For putting you in a situation where that could happen.

Yeah. Which.

And then we did. And I thought that what you suggested was really, really valuable. That what I should have done and what I didn't know to do would. Is to give a prelude or an introduction that sets out kind of the ground rules or the understanding or the relationship that we have so that people would be more careful about expressing what they did express. Which. And the other really tricky part about it for me, and this is cultural and also gender based, that people like me, white women, tend to say really ugly things. But in a really Nice voice.

Ah, yes, yes, yes.

And so sometimes it's really hard to understand, like, oh, they're really saying something really mean right now.

Yeah.

Because they're saying it in a nice way with a smile on their face.

Yeah.

And that can be targeted toward, you know, whoever they're talking to, you know.

And to be fair here again to the non indigenous people now who want to build these relationships with indigenous people, I'm not sure, like in most cases, I would say you're not going to catch what the problem was because as Julia just pointed out, it wasn't even the words. It was the tone behind the words. There was a couple of people that had. And it was actually not even a question, but like a follow up question where you could almost see the attitude. Right. Like, like, but, but the first book was great. Right. And it was like, that's when I realized, oh, duh, right. I'm in their mind. I was attacking one of their own and they were coming to her defense, which is a beautiful statement of how much they love Julia. But we didn't know. Not just Julia, but we didn't know or think it through enough to realize we had to introduce them to me so that they realized I was not a critic. At no time was I attacking. I actually came in as an ally to help with, with changing the book on criticism she had already received. Right. So yeah, that was. It's not so much the event. I think what I take from that was the conversation we had afterwards I think was a huge learning opportunity. Right. Like, like you were saying you knew something was wrong but didn't really know what was wrong. So then of course, because creator is absolutely amazing, we have this amazing debrief and it's like, okay, we got all our ducks in a row, now we're good. We go into the second event and there was none of that, none of it. Right. They were just, they, I think, correct me if I'm wrong or I would love to hear your opinion. But the impression I got of the questions at the second event was they were almost more interested in our relationship.

Than the book, which is really what the, what we've been talking about.

Yeah.

I mean, that's all the things that we've done and you know, is all. Any interview, any talks we've had together, the radio interview, etc. It's very much about the story of our story. Yeah. And very little about the story of the book and.

Or the plot. By the way, the book is amazing and you should read the book. We wouldn't have this relationship if the book wasn't amazing. Because I think I know for me. Well, I know you wanted to save the book. You wouldn't have reached out otherwise. But right from the get go, even though there were definitely things I had initially issue with in the original print, it was an amazing story. Like I love the story from the get go. It was almost like reading, reading, Ouch. I wish I didn't read that. Reading, reading, reading. Ouch. Right. But not. And nothing so blatant that I'm going to put the book down. And I've definitely had that happen where the, the, like it was just out note blatant stereotypes that we're reinforcing and it's like, I'm not even reading this. This is not worth my time. So it was definitely not that. But yeah, I just, the, the interest came across as so genuine from the second group. Right. Whether it was. I think they were fat. Now, again, love to hear your opinion. When I work, like picture a non indigenous audience, 500 people in a room. When we get to Q and A time, there is always such apprehension around them asking a question, admitting they don't know something. Like at one point I was on stage, I was live in front of this huge audience and I literally said like, who was the last facilitator you worked with? Like, why are you so nervous to ask these questions? I'm not you. But they have been attacked and they have been crucified for not knowing. And to me that's burning bridges. That's not. If you don't know, you don't know. It means you've never had the opportunity to learn it. Right. And you wouldn't know what to Google or whatever the case may be. So I think they were interested in, if not fascinated by the fact that by you. The fact that there were. It was pointed out to you that it wasn't really pointed out to you what was wrong in the book. Just that there were things wrong in the book.

But there were some specifics. But they were fairly vague. But I mean they weren't vague, but they were, they were pointed. Yeah, I would say they were pointed. I mean, I understood what she was talking about, you know.

Yeah, I think they were very. It was almost giving them hope that we can make a mistake and we're not going to get attacked. Like a relationship could actually result as opposed to you're the enemy. Right. So I think that's what they were interested in. That, that as much as indigenous people want to believe that a relationship is possible. What I saw from the non indigenous people in that room is the need for the same hope.

I got the vibe that at least some of them were in relationship with indigenous people and. Or communities already. They. That was just my. I don't know that there was anything specifically they said, but they seemed comfortable. Ish. With more comfort. They seemed comfortable with. They didn't seem afraid to, you know. And some of that fear, I think is really very deep in white people. Because first of all, we have the trope of the angry black person.

Yep.

The angry black woman or the angry black man.

And it's the same.

Not allowable.

Right.

Still in a lot of people's hearts. I mean they might. They would never. A lot of people would not. Never cop to it. They would not necessarily, you know, see it in themselves even. Even if it was pointed out. But there's a deep, deep fear of that way going back, back, back, back. Like you don't want this. The enslaved people getting mad.

Yeah.

Right. And you also. So you don't want to press people getting mad like it's free. It's scary to white people to even think about that because not only are they deeply afraid on some level of a confrontation, but they're also afraid that they will see in themselves. That's why white people are always saying I'm not racist. But. But they don't want to.

They don't want to be called.

They think being racist is bad. They don't want to be called racist, but they're not willing to look deeply and say, you know, there's racist stuff in me. Yeah. I am. I am still imbued with certain ideas or reactions or thoughts or fear. Whatever. It's there. They're afraid to look at that. They don't want to. They don't want to think of themselves as bad.

Yeah. So I'm going to take that way out on a limb because that's where I spend all my time.

Like a bird.

To say the thing that maybe people don't say, and this is going to sound like an ego trip. Don't care. I honestly believe only because I've seen so many examples of the opposite. I honestly believe our relationship is more authentic than most indigenous non indigenous relationships, including some of the people in that room. I have met to explain. I have met many non indigenous people that have relationships with indigenous people. Get the right side of the map here. And. But it's superficial. Right. And often the non indigenous person thinks I have a great relationship with this person. But the indigenous person would never dare say they have a problem with something the non indigenous person said. So the power dynamic is still uneven. Yes, they're friendly, yes, they work together, but it's not honest. And what I love about our relationship, largely because of the work that we were doing together. I'm just going to put this on. Do Not Disturb. I don't know why. Is that your computer or mine?

I don't think it's me. It could be, but I don't know. I don't think so.

I'm hearing beeping in the background and I have no idea why and I can't. I will put Do Not Disturb on my phone. That'll work. It is on. Do not disturb. I know what I have to do. For some. Go off on a tangent here. For some unknown reason, Facebook can actually override the do not disturb and you can still get the notifications, which freaky. That's a rabbit hole to go down. But do you understand what I mean about the proper dynamics?

Yes, absolutely. But I, but I credit that authenticity to you because you are very practiced and adept at speaking hard truths. And that is what you do. That is that, that's your job. That's what you. That's what you are really, really good at. And you don't mince words. But you're not. But you're not, you know, you're not snarky about it. You just say. You just tell it like it is.

I just want to bring something here. You just, you keep talking.

Well, so. And that's what I wanted. But that's what I was looking for. That's what I was hoping to get from somebody. You know, I didn't know you. I mean, I knew a little bit about your work and I had read your books and stuff, but I didn't. We hadn't talked.

Exactly.

I didn't know what kind of. I didn't know how that relationship was going to be or what it was going to be like or anything.

Yeah.

And so. But you allowed that truth telling to be always in the room and hopefully.

You never felt attacked.

No, hell no. No, I didn't.

So I got.

But I mean, even if you had been, Even if you had been sharper in your, in your approach, that's what I signed up for. I mean, I wanted the truth. I wanted to understand if there was a way to fix what I had done wrong. Yeah, I wanted that. So, you know, I mean, you could have been unpleasant and I still would have been like, well, this is what, this is the part of it, you know, like, that's who she is. And that's, that's, that's cool. All right.

See, that's something I'm really adamant about. I believe you can tell truth without being offensive. And I run into. I ran into someone the other day. It's like, well, if you work with me, it was a business type coach. If you work with me, you're going to be offended because I'm going to tell you the truth. It's like there are ways to tell truth without attacking if you're hearing truth. Now, obviously, no matter how gently you presented, if someone's already defensive, it's going to be an issue. You have to be open to hearing it. But what I wanted to look up, you know, you're on my email list. I send out an email to my list every week with whatever video of the week. And someone responded to one of my emails just with a comment. And what she said was, I really appreciate your content. You are so gentle in how you hold people accountable, but your impact is strong. And I just thought it's like, I love that because, yeah, I'm just me, right? But to hear that she got. My approach was gentle, but the point gets across. I was like, okay, that's actually what I'm trying to do. So, yeah, so I love hearing that.

Because what's your personal. I think you are trying to do it, but it's also your personality. You know, you're a very likable person. You're funny, you're charming. I mean, all that.

You cross the lines. And there are definitely people out there like, I have. My quote has always been, I have all the time in the world for someone who's trying to. But if you're just going to be offensive and you don't want to learn, I'm Red Thunderbolt woman. I can shut that down just as quickly. So there are. Watch one of my rant videos on TikTok. Like, there are times I will always go with gentle first. I am trying to build the bridge, but if the line has to be drawn, there's a line that's going to be drawn. So. And I know I have people, critics that have been on the other side of the line and would definitely not describe me as gentle. Having said that, they are also not taking any ownership of what they brought to the table. So I think you reached out with a gen. It was so obvious you wanted to learn that. You've said this in the past interviews we've done where you didn't just want to Fix the fact you wanted to learn why it was problematic. Right. Like you were willing to put in the time and the effort and sit with it if it need be. You were open to learning. You didn't want to just read it in a book or whatever. So that was. And that's what I mean. I think I take a lot of hope from our relationship because it is that honest that we. We don't just have a relationship. We talk about hard truths and we still have a relationship. And that's why I meant what I meant by it's more real than some other relationships. I see. It's really easy to have a superficial relationship. Hi, how you doing? With someone. But would you talk to them about racism you experienced? And would they be able to hear it and hold something. Space for you?

Right.

Which is kind of. I don't want to say it was racism, but that's kind of what happened after the first event. Right. Like that you knew something had happened. I have no idea what it was. It didn't affect me, but it affected Sandy. And I want to hold space and talk about that. Right. So which is our relationship. So. Yeah.

Well, I did. I sort of. I suspected afterwards when I, you know, when I went home and I thought about. Okay, I know. I know something was up.

Yeah.

And then I went back and kind of thought about what I had sort of been able to incorporate, even though I was not fully present. Really. Yeah. And I had suspicions about what it was, but I wasn't entirely sure. And mainly I just knew that something had. Something was. Was up.

Yeah.

And I. And I've. And, you know, and I was surprised because I thought, oh, well, you know, she's used to handling all kinds of situations. But, you know, I want. I needed to know what was what. And I felt responsible.

Yeah.

But I had brought you there and, you know, I had. I hadn't noticed it well enough to be able to respond myself to it at the time. And I'm not sure I would have been equipped to do that even.

Yeah. And that led into. That was the other important fact. Because you had shared. That's how you were feeling when we did the debrief. And I had to point out that you don't need to protect me, that I'm. That paternalistic attitude. I know.

See, that's the tricky part, too, because I think I told you when we talked about it the next day.

Yeah.

That I'd been in a situation once where something had happened that was really overtly racist to somebody that I knew a class I was in, and I thought, I don't want to presume that I need to protect her.

Yeah.

I didn't know her that well, first of all. But anyway, I felt awkward to speak up in a strong way because I didn't want her to feel like she couldn't take care of it herself.

Yeah.

But she was mad at everybody because we all did the same thing. We all were kind of. We were all shocked, too. Like, we, you know, we were deer in the headlights, too, about what had happened. But in any event, she was like, you know, nobody got my back. Nobody stuck up for me. And so that was a really good lesson for me because I, you know, I didn't want. I mean, I didn't ever. I didn't have the kind of relationship with her where I was able to say to her, but, you know, I didn't want to insult you by whatever, because that sounded like I was making an excuse.

Yeah.

But it was a learning opportunity for me to say, okay, well, I'd rather err on the. On the side of, oh, you know, hey, listen, I can handle this.

Yeah.

Rather than not do anything. So that was exactly. And painful, but useful.

Yeah. So, I mean, she was very upset.

The woman who would.

So my followers, where the line is in the first scenario, say something when Julia was talking about the class, because that's. The person got blindsided. They don't know. Whatever the difference is. For Julie and I and the book launch event, this is something we agree. We agreed to go in and do this presentation. Right. So I was as open to doing this as Julia was. At no time, even with whatever happens. Right. Because it's an audience. And yes, I've spoken in front of many audiences, and you never know what's going to happen. But in the case of the student, she didn't sign up for racism. She signed up for a class. Right. I know as an indigenous woman with a voice. Yeah. I come up against racism on a regular basis. The difference with that event for me was, like I said, I brought my walls down. I'm just hanging out with Julia, totally forgetting there's 40 other people in the room. But I'm just with Julia. Right. And that's why I said, no, you don't need to protect me. I walked into that. Where I choose to keep my walls is up to me. That's. I got to take ownership for that. Right. But I think, like, I've experienced racism in, like, a hair salon or in the middle of a store or whatever. In those cases, that's not what I signed up for. Someone please speak up. Right, So I think that's the difference. Hopefully that doesn't totally confuse the daylights on everyone, but I think that's it. When I stand on a stage, I expect things could get weird, but I've done the training and I'm standing up there. My. The difference was, like I said, I didn't look at this as an event. I looked at it as Julia and I hanging out together and we're just gathering people. Right. That was my bad. So, okay, so those were the book launch events. Now, since then, you've been a busy bee. I don't know how you did it, but you put your book out there and did you send it to people for reviews or how is this done? Some.

Yes. Oh, for this, this, this book, this virtual book tour that I'm doing. Yes. I sent the book to people, to bloggers. Book bloggers. And yeah, so. And I didn't know who they were or anything. I still don't really. I mean, you know, you look at their thing and go, okay, well, this is, you know, it's pretty. It's not in depth. The, you know, the reviews aren't in depth, but it's, it's nice. It's nice to see, you know, a little image that they always stage the book. It's very cute.

Yes.

Yeah. So that's going to go on for another couple of weeks. So we may see other incidents. We did see one, at least where the comment was in the same. In the same mode as what we're talking about.

Yeah. You notice Julia caught it this time.

Yeah, yeah. Like what was wrong with it in the first place kind of thing.

And again, the subtlety. Right. She didn't, she.

He.

I can't remember who the blogger was, but, but it wasn't what was wrong.

I don't think it was the blogger. I think it was someone that commented, actually.

Oh, okay.

I think it was what was wrong.

With the first book. Like, it wasn't that blatant, but it was definitely implied that, like, for some reason they decided to do this and that, like. Right.

And I mean, which they hadn't even read the first book, so, you know, and plus, if you read, if you read the Copper Stone.

Yeah.

We don't, in our, in our introductions, we don't go into a lot of detail about what exactly we altered.

Yeah.

But if you read the first book at all, or you could find out, I mean, that's, that would be a good question for a reader. It's like, okay, like, you know, tell us more about, you know, the steps. And very few people have asked about that. I think there was one in the.

First is actually they really wanted to know what was changed. But I kind of.

Yeah, we did talk about a little bit.

Yeah, I kind of impression they wanted to know what was changed because they were going to challenge the need to change it maybe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So one thing I've come to realize since all of this happened, this is a recent revelation. So one of the things I love about my life is I'm constantly learning and understanding more things, like just the wisdom growing with my age. And I'm currently reading a book by a native author. And what I realized, why it was so important to make those changes with Copper Stone is inclusivity. So when I read Copper Magic, the original book, every time I came across one of the problematic sections, it reminded me this book wasn't about me. Right. It kind of pulled. I'm not included in the target audience for this book. Whereas to read Copper Stone now or to read the book I am reading, that I'll do a review of later, every time I come across something that does resonate with me, it pulls me into the book rather than including me, right. It's like, well, this does include me, which is not a given for any marginalized or racialized group. And I think that's why it's so important. Right. The one thing reading this new book is doing for me is really, I have long been telling indigenous people to write your stories, but that's talking more about their non fictional, real experiences that that needs to get out to educate the world. But after reading this is a fictional book that I'm reading and I now realize we need way more fiction writers that are indigenous because just it's kind of like when I go back to Treaty three, which is my home territory, I don't live in Treaty 3 territory, but when I go back there, which is quite often, when I first started going back as an adult, I kind of giggled because I thought everyone sounds like my mom. Like, just the way they phrase things, it's like it is so obvious. My mom is from this territory and so am I, but I wasn't raised there. And that's kind of what it's like with the book. Like you read something and it's like, yeah, yeah, that's the way it is. Right. And in this, the book I'm reading, the main character is an indigenous woman. So even more so.

Right.

Like, I think I've long Said if you're going to write an indigenous character, you better be indigenous. Right. Because the worldview has to be there. Now, 60 scoop is different. Separated from culture is totally different. But in this case, she's not. She was raised in it. Right. And it just makes me smile and nod as I read. Yeah. And the reality is, back to your point, I don't know if non indigenous would ever pick up on those things. Right. Doubtful. Sure do. Right. That it's like, yes, this, this. We are part of this book. Right. So, yeah.

You know, it's interesting that there is more indigenous content on television now. I just started watching North. North to North, I think it's called north by North. You know that show.

Yeah.

And what. And that, like Reservation Dogs, you know, is clearly not taking into account in any way, non indigenous audience. I mean, you're welcome to watch it, but it's not for us.

Yeah.

Yeah. And that's.

That's definitely jokes you're not gonna get or. Exactly. You think you did. But there's four other layers that we caught. Right. So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I really appreciate that. I mean, that's new. Ish. Very. I mean, very new. Really. Because, you know, there were. I mean, you know, the history. There was just invisibility in terms of indigenous people, except as, you know, sort of bit players or, you know, as actors to some degree. But not, not, not. Not indigenous stories.

Yeah.

And even, like, widespread mainstream, available to everyone.

Yeah. Even the reality of my career did not exist one generation ago. Right. Like, my mom couldn't have done the work I did. She would have got stones thrown at her, literally. Get off the stage. No one cares. Right. So. And that's why I can remain so hopeful, because I do see the changes. I know the things I say in a video or on a stage. And I mean everything for a reason. Yes. With every cell in my body. I wish my mom was here. But it's probably better she's not, because if she heard some of the things I publicly say, she'd be like having a coronary. I know my brother can't listen.

Really.

Has told me, like, yo, your career makes me so nervous, like, because he goes. And he's my older brother. So protective.

Mo.

Right. And. And what? Like, don't, don't. Like, we've been taught silence is safer. Right. Which is not true. When you go silent, you go missing. Right. Might be tempted to stay silent. Don't. That's. That's when you're in real danger. But yeah. So, I mean, things are Definitely changing. And, like, I know the one review kind of implied, like, what's the big deal? And that's kind of what we saw at that first event. What's the big deal? Why did it have to change? It is a big deal. Just because it's a subtle change doesn't mean it doesn't have immense power. Kind of like that quote, right? I might be gentle, but it's not impact. And these subtle changes have huge impact, so.

Well, it's interesting what you say about your mother, because from what you've said and what I've read in your books about her, she was very much about being quiet and wanting to be invisible.

Right.

And so, of course she would be terrified for you.

I joked that I was responsible for every gray hair that woman had.

Oh, yeah.

Like, my brothers were definitely more, toe the line, work hard, keep your head down, don't say anything. And then she had me, and it's like, why are you saying that? I'm gonna challenge that.

Whatever.

Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, my mom. My mom, with her specific past that I won't go into, definitely was trying to stay safe. Terrified. And that's why, like, when I talk about good soil or creating safe spaces, like, I did a post about my mom because the anniversary of her passing just passed on September 28th. How even though I didn't know the words or the phrasing at that time, my dad. Our house was Mom's good soil. And there she got to be a hundred percent her. The loud laugh, the goofiness, the silliness, the wisdom, the whole nine yards. Mom lived fully within the walls of that house or even our yard. But as soon as we left, then she went silence. And she tried to hide behind my dad. And she knew that the shade of her skin, because my mom was a lot darker than me offended people, and she didn't want to offend people. My mom was the kindest woman you could ever meet. And so if that meant I have to hide so you're not upset, I'll hide. Which infuriated me when I got older. Right? It's like, why are you hiding? Tell them they're a jerk.

No, no, no. Right.

Which is more my personality than hers. But to see her blossom in the right environment, in good soil, to see the dramatic difference between her at home and her in the outside world, and to know that I walked the same path. And I don't know if I ever shared that with you, but it was after my last marriage ended. No comments, followers. Just keep that to yourself. I was at home and the kids were in high school, and I was cooking dinner, and my daughter walked in the back door with one of her high school friends. And I was goofing off in the kitchen. The music was cranked. I was dancing while I'm cooking. I was being me. I was having a great old time. And my daughter's friend kind of looked at my daughter. She shared this with me later and said, like, what's with your mom? Right? And my daughter was like, what are you talking about? It's like she's all hyper and happy and dancing around like, well, what's with your mom? And I will never forget my daughter's response. She just looked at him and said, oh, this is my mom single when she gets to be her. And that was such an eye opener for me to realize that. That my children who loved me and never judged me, saw the night and day that I used to see in my mom. And I was like, things have to change. Right? That if I'm with a partner that is not good soil, that I have to give up being me, then that can't happen again. And to this day, if I start a new relationship, my children's instant reaction is to be nervous, like, are. Are we gonna lose mom again? Right. So, yeah. Nothing like your children to just. There's the truth. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And it wasn't a condemnation in any way. She was just being honest because she had seen me, you know, single, and she had seen me in a relationship, and she knew how I behaved in either. And she was like, no, I'm just. Matter of fact, my mom's back, right? It's like.

Well, I think I'm wondering and thinking that your father fell in love with the. The version of your mother that was her inside 100. That was the real her.

Yeah.

Or the, the, the, the. The. The free her. That was what he loved. And that's what he. Yeah.

And I can only.

Not the other one. Not. Not the scared one. Not the.

Exactly.

That's not what he. And that's so beautiful.

I mean.

Yeah, that's really unusual, I think, for a man, to. A lot of men, like the weaker.

Part of 100% or of a woman, you know, that's.

That's what they want to. They want. That's the soil they want to keep growing.

Yeah. And I can just imagine, like, I love that you said that, because I've never really thought that was.

That was a bad choice of words.

No, no, no, I know exactly what you mean. Like, but what I love imagining now is they must have done the most amazing dance when they first met, because my mom would have almost been testing the waters, right? Like, I'm certain she was hesitant when she first met him. And then probably without thinking it, she said something funny. And instead of being offended, he laughed. And she would realize, wait a minute, something's different. Okay, I'm going to try doing this. And he accepted it. And I'm going to try this, right? So she would have, over time, realized, I can be me here. That it is here, right? That dance. And I know thank Creator Mums passed on. She would kill me for sharing this. So. And I've shared it online before. How my parents met was actually. My eldest brother was actually from my mom's first marriage and that he had met my dad walking on the way to work. My mom, my dad was doing some cutting firewood for a local person. They ended up chatting. My dad was very outgoing. My outgoing personality. That's my dad. And so he started talking to my older brother. They became friends. And at one point, my older brother, eldest brother, suggested, you should meet my mom. Which my dad found hilarious, that this little boy was trying to set up his mom, right? So he just kind of joked and laughed and brushed it off. And the next day, my brother brought my mom. I don't know what he told her why. He convinced her she was needed at the school, right? Because she had no idea she was meeting my dad. And he brought her along. And my dad, like, I can imagine the size of the grin on his face, like, oh, my God, this little kid actually did it. And they ended up in a relationship. So it was when I was probably. It was after dad passed, so I was probably 18, doing the dishes one night with my mom, like always. That's where, like, people think you get your teachings, how to sacred fire. I got my teachings doing dishes with my mom. And it hit me now, as an older person, more an adult, I was like, wait a minute, Mom, I know the story of how you guys met. We know all about George's part in that. But how long from when you guys met to your living together as a couple? Like, what's that length of time? And mom got embarrassed and went, oh, you don't need to know that. I was like, no need to know that. The fact that you reacted that way, I really need to know that. And it was two months, So I.

Think so they have a strong connection.

And what it highlights is how much we appreciate good soil. When you find that soil where you can 100 be yourself. It's why I love my career. I joke all the time that my personality is so big. I need a whole stage. Like, I'm the only one there and that's how much space I need. Right. But on stage, I can. I'm part clown, I'm part elder, I'm part, you know, stand up comedian. I'm like a teacher. I'm like all of these parts, all of them are me. And it's one of the few places I've found where I can be me. Like all of me. And with my kids would be another place. Right. We are the absolute goofiest. When we're together, the things we say to each other would shock shyer people. But it's always been our. I became a single mom when they were 2 and 4. Like, we're going to pretend life's perfect. No. Like, mom comes home exhausted and grumpy. Can you guys go watch TV for a while so I don't bite your head off? Like, I was honest with them and we have that amazing relationship because of it. So good soil. Tied to good soil.

Yes. Yes.

Our relationship is good soil, by the way.

Like, definitely is for me.

Absolutely. 100 for me. So the last thing, we're going to bring this to a close here. Shall we tell them what we're up to?

I think we have to. You know, because I was so happy that the librarian, you know, followed up. Like, she, she was intrigued enough to ask me, like, what, what do you want this book for? Yeah. And I thought, well, this is the inroad that we were hoping to get. But I tried to get back in the day with probably her. You know, she's been, she's been active with the tribe for decades, this woman.

Yeah.

And, you know, I was just like, oh, we, I think, you know, by thanks to my relationship with you, there's a, there's a, there's a foothold there. Yeah.

So my have no idea what book.

I know they don't know what we're talking about.

So, Julia, I'm going to let you tell them what we're up to.

Well, when the first book that Sandy and I revised came out, many people who read it said, oh, you know, I, you should write a sequel to this. You know, I could see it being a whole series. And I was like, oh, God, I don't know. I mean, I was. For years, when the first book came out, I was aware that the indigenous content in the book was problematic. I was, it really put a shadow over the book. For me, I was embarrassed to talk about it too much with anybody. You know, I just. But so I, the idea of a sequel at that point was just like, oh God, you know, let's just leave this book in the dust where it might belong. Fortunately, I found a way to do something else with the book that was, that feels now healing for me and I think for the book itself and whatever. And people have continued to say, well, you know, what about a sequel and stuff like that. And Sandy was one of those people starting from, maybe not super early on when we started working together, but somewhere in the middle probably of our process, you started to say, you know, I could really see another book about this character, this 12 year old girl. And I was like, oh God, well, what does that even mean? You know, like I, I mean, the idea of continuing to write about indigenous worlds, or let's put it that way, worlds, yeah, was very daunting to me. Even after you and I started to work together, it was still very daunting. Like, do I really want to, you know, keep taking this on? But Sandy and I have been talking about this for a long time now and just in really general terms, but as time has gone on, Sandy has had some really great ideas about how that could work and how. What. Because I was like, well, what's going, you know, I don't even. Anyway, I had, I had thoughts about a sequel that would not have indigenous, an indigenous element to it very much that I felt comfortable with. But anyway, Sandy has helped me see that there is a possible way to tell a story about what happens right after the first book ends and onward. And so one of the challenges in that is to do the research because the book takes place in 1906 and it's going. And part of this new story, if we continue with it, which I think now we really are going to, takes place in a part of the world that I've never even been to. I mean, it's, it's, it's a, it's an island, it's, it's very specific in its, in its ecology and in its history and stuff like that. And it's been difficult to find even research materials so far, but we have just found a book that is a really good beginning that we are going to get soon and be able to look at. And also, as I was referring to, we now have, you know, a tiny beginning of a relationship with the historian for one of the tribes in that area, the tribe that is particular to the place that we are talking about. So that's really, to me, feels. Feels like a really, really huge step that really just kind of, you know, has been baby steps toward it. And I think it's really significant. I wrote in my, like, I keep, you know, I keep. I get track of the things I do, like in a notebook. And I wrote down, you know, heard from, you know, the historian today. And then I wrote in big letters. Huge. Yeah, I feel like that's really big that we have. That we have a way to get some of the questions that we have answered or explored, let's say not answered necessarily, but explored. And that's super exciting to me. I love research. It's going to be very fun. And then, you know, from the research comes a lot of opportunity for, you know, plot and character growth.

And that's where Julia and I are different because research makes my head. One day it's like, no, thank you. But I did want to point out something for the followers and viewers that Julia said that I think is a valuable teaching when she was talking about the darkness that was kind of around the first book and the negativity and, and thinking that maybe just let it go into the dust. That's where it belongs. I really want to stress for the people that find themselves in a situation where they said the wrong thing or did the wrong thing and someone called them out for it and maybe called them out and it wasn't as kind and gentle as you would like, but the lesson is still there. And what my point is, is don't give up on the relationship. Take it as a sign that they were. They felt they could be honest with you. Because trust me, if we think we're talking to a wall, we don't put in the. The energy it takes. So the fact that they share. Shared that with you, they don't have to be your enemy. This doesn't have to be. I'm never going to try this again. Indigenous people are too hard to work with. It can be such an opportunity for growth. Yes, it stings. Yes, sometimes it can be really embarrassing, but that does. And over time, if you're able to continue that relationship. And of course, maybe they don't want do and you have to accept that too. But if they do, what you're going to find is a softening of the approach over time because you are proving you are open to learning. And you are. You did hear them. So next time, they don't have to be as blunt or as loud to get your attention, which is often what we have to do to get someone's attention. And next time, they can point it out and not call you out, but more just point it out and the relationship you could end up with. Well, I doubt it'll be as amazing as Julia and I's, but you can hope. And it could be an awesome relationship. So don't let your embarrassment or your uncomfortableness end. What could be the beginning of something amazing? Remember, Julia and I know met because there were problems, right? And look where we are now. So awesome. I think that's an absolutely amazing place to end. Of course, at some point in the future, Julia's coming back, so we can share with you what amazing things have happened since the last time we chatted. But, Julia, thank you so much. Any excuse to hang out with you. I am there. I remain hopeful that at some point, the insanity ends and we can actually be in a room together. Or else I'm getting you a ticket up here. Whichever.

Oh, that could happen, right? That could totally happen.

Yeah, we. Something's gonna happen, so. But it was absolutely amazing hanging out with you. I saw my agenda for today, and it's like, it's a crime to call that work. I get to hang out with my friend for an hour. Like, okay, twist my arm, right?

Same, same and same. Ditto. Echo, you're the best, and I'm so happy to be with you always.

Oh, awesome. Right back at you. Okay, so until next time, followers, I really hope you enjoyed this. I know I did, so I hope you did. I was going to say, don't really care, but that would be rude. I hope you did, Julia. Take care, and I will talk to you soon. Take care, everyone. Bye. Bye.