Final Expense Success: How Douglas Massi Built His Agency & Uses Social Media + Advice To Agents

Every agency says, "Hey, we've got a system. Just follow the system." Not really. Most agencies do not. The training, those of you listening to this or watching this, the training in our industry is is pretty much nonexistent. I mean, I hate to say it, but that really is it. You know, honestly, the best thing that you can do is research the person who you're speaking with about working with. So there's no guarantees in this business. Really, you know, no matter what, I hate to say it. I don't care when it comes down. down to it, I don't care how good or bad the lead is, it's never the lead. Time, as you know, is not the friend of the lead.

There's this saying that I love, and it is success leaves clues. In other words, the fastest way for you to achieve something is for you to learn from someone who has already achieved that very thing at the very highest level. And today I am sitting down with Doug Massey. He is an extremely experienced final expense agent, a final expense agency owner, a trainer, and he has a killer social media presence. He has posted over 1,000 YouTube videos. So in today's interview, we're going to be diving into how the industry has changed. He's going to share some things that new agents need to know that no one else wants to say, and we're going to talk about social media strategy, how he first got started and how he ended up where he is right now. So if you are an insurance agent or you're even considering becoming an insurance agent, this is going to be a conversation that is extremely valuable. So let's dive in. All right, Doug Massey, I am so excited that you are joining me today. You are extremely experienced not only in selling insurance policies, primarily final expense, but you also are very experienced in helping agents achieve their own personal goals. So I would love to get into, on top of that, you also are, you have made so much ground being on social media. When I went to your YouTube channel, you had over, 1,000 YouTube videos. So you have done such a great job of putting your information out there for agents to be able to find you. So I would love for you to share, how did you kind of get into this? What made you fall into final expense? And then what made you decide that you needed to have your own agency?

Thank you. And Shauna, thank you very much for inviting me. I'm really, really excited about doing this today. Well, you know, from, from the beginning, I got recruited as a life insurance agent about 17 years ago to sell for the Hartford. And that's kind of where I started. And let's see, I believe it was about 2012, 2013, they lost their lead program. And they lost the product that they were selling. When I say they lost it, they no longer offered it to us, the agents that worked for them. And so I was happy back then, I was making $65,000 a year. And, you know, I was, you know, I was, you know, a Top producer. You know, I was putting up the numbers. I was qualifying for the Hartford conventions. So, when that happened, the timing was kind of terrible. It kind of like messed up all of our plans because at that point, you know, I had met my wife. She was my girlfriend at the time, probably 6 months before that. You know, we moved in together and then I convinced her to start getting licensed to do what I was doing. And so, as she's going through the licensing process, that's when we lost that, the Hartford. So, I had to switch gears and figure out what to do. What we did together for the next year, unfortunately— well, I guess maybe, maybe fortunately, because it actually led to final expense— we tried to keep selling mortgage protection as independent agents. And it was just a thing where we just got further and further in debt for that year. And then finally, when we found final expense sales, back then what we were doing was Was we were door-knocking leads. That's what we were taught to do. That's what we were told to do. And so, we started doing that together. And, you know, of course, when you first start, the training back then was terrible. And it was pretty nonexistent. So, basically, I was taking what I learned from making in-house presentations, selling mortgage protection with The Hartford, trying to do a lot of that with final expense. And it didn't really work. It was a learning curve. So, meanwhile, we're getting in the next few months, we got in further in debt, but we finally started coming out the other end. And so, what happened at that point was we realized, hey, this has a lot more potential than what we were doing with the Hartford. So, it went from being that, oh my God, what are we going to do thing to, ah, I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. And it was looking really good. And within a year, we went from being in debt to being not only profit, but paying off the debt, to making a nice profit, being able to save like $10,000 to $20,000 each month, putting that aside. Then 2018 comes along and we put down like $300,000 to pre-construction build this house. 2019, we moved in. And 2020, through our business, We paid the house off. So, it was a pretty amazing trip. A lot of stuff happened between then, which one of the things was you mentioned building the agency. And it just kind of, for me, it just kind of seemed like the next step. I had been years in the insurance industry. So, now, we start selling final expense. We figured out how to make it work. And then, I started saying— Well, shoot, you know, why don't we just recruit agents and give them the stuff that we didn't have? So, we had a lot of growing pains. You know, something what I refer to is, now I call it the 3-legged stool, you know, which is basically the right carriers and commissions, 'cause we were getting ripped off on commissions, which a lot of agents do today. We didn't have training, so I developed a training system, and that's something that even today with telesales, we really, really put a lot into. And of course, some type of a lead that makes sense, which is, as you know, which is what feeds our industry. And back then, you know, back then we were— we went from door knocking leads to— I realized, because I was told, I was told by my manager, we got to door knock leads— to realizing, hey, the next step is probably to call and set appointments. I used to do that as a Hartford agent. Why aren't we doing that now? And then, we started doing that. And then, I realized, well, shoot, if we could get help, we could even do better. So, I started hiring people, teaching them how to set appointments. I went through a lot of people to find Diana, who's been with me now for over 12 years. And once we found her, that was when, like, Mariana and I, our game just stepped up big time. I wrote my first $20K month. Then like within 2, 3 months I was doing $30K. Within 5, 6 months I was writing $40K to $50K every single month. And so that's what—

So what was, what was the main thing? Because you said, I went into it, we were doing mortgage protection, we were approaching it the same way. What was like the pivotal thing that you were like, that doesn't work, this does work? And then that made you go from the little bit of struggling to your first $20K and then $30K month? What like were those little things?

Leads.

Yeah.

So the ROI for the mortgage protection, that leads are real expensive, they were hard to get. And so we ended up with an MLM and kind of weren't where I was promised that we'd be able to get leads in our area. And inadvertently they gave us leads, but they were 2, 3 years old. And so we were like, hey, that's not what we signed up for. I was expecting to buy exclusive leads. Oh, we don't have that. So we went through all that stuff and that was where with final expense, I was like, well, wait, we can actually generate these leads. We can get these leads. Back then, we were dropping 1,000 pieces of mail for like $450 for a 1,000-piece mail drop, and you'd get 1.5% return. Now, those same mail drops are like $600, $650. And I spoke with an agent just the other day who told me he got 7 leads in his last 1,000-piece drop.

Wow.

So, it's just, It's just not the same. But that was it. And so, as you know, now, of course, things are different. You know, we're able to generate these leads online that, you know, we're not— not for $20, $30, $40, which is what these guys are dealing with, with the direct mail. And that was really just a huge game changer.

So it sounds like it's interesting from what I've seen in the insurance industry. It's very— it sounds like there's all these success overnight stories, but in reality, there's a whole bunch of work that goes into it on the back end. And it seems like you said you have the 3 things: the right carrier, the training system, and then providing leads. Is kind of the thing that you felt like was the hardest 3 pillars to build, and that's kind of what you've built your agency on, is what it sounds like?

It is. So here's today. Look, every agency says, hey, we've got a system, just follow the system. Not really. Most agencies do not, because to me, you have to have those 3 things. You have to have not just the carriers but the right commissions, not just leads but really affordable leads and, and decent leads that actually work, or a way of generating them. And then of course the training, guys. The training— those of you listening to this or watching this, the training in our industry is Is pretty much nonexistent. I mean, I hate to say it, but that really is it. So, what we've done with the training is we've said, hey, what is hard to get for an agency that's working with independent agents? So, now they're paying high commissions. What's hard to get for them? And what don't you get from them? In most cases, you don't get the training. And what'll happen is you'll get 1 or 2 of the 3 things that we talked about. You'll get 1 or 2 of them, Most agencies, you cannot get 3 of them. And that's where we kind of come in. So like, as far as training is concerned, we want our agents doing role-playing daily. We've got a trainer who is a closer who is very talented in this industry. So our agents are able to log in each day and do the role-playing with a small group. And what she'll do a couple of times a week is she'll pull a recording from a new agent A sales presentation that they didn't close, and she'll pull it up and she'll play it and she'll pause and talk about what's going on. So now it's real training. The agents are learning live. And then the cool part is throughout the day she's selling. She invites the agents into a breakout room where they're seeing other agents who, if they have their cameras on, you see other agents doing the same thing you're doing. But when she gets into a presentation, she turns off the mute. Now, you're seeing and hearing her do and say exactly what is in the training, what she's teaching the agents to do. So, I feel like that itself is such a huge thing. But when you add it to the right carriers and multiple lead sources, multiple lead options, you know, and that's kind of what we do, we give the agents options.

Yeah.

It's hard for them to fail If they're really trying. It, it really is.

That definitely, the agents that I talk to, the new ones, they seem so eager to learn and not aware of sometimes the contracts that they get into. There was one in the 7 Figure Medicare Agent Group that was asking, is this a good deal? And they were giving up 50% of commissions and people were like, well, what are, what are they doing for you? And they're like, they're gonna gimme a CRM. And they're gonna give me an office space. And I wanna say that that was just about it. And everyone's like, okay, so they're gonna cover $97 a month for you then to give up 50% of your commissions as you continue to scale, and you're gonna get a little office space. How often do you even need to go into the office to jump in? So it just sounds like there's such a difference in the amount of training and lack of training that some provide versus others that I see in the community that just wanna uplift agents. And I do think that that is one of the biggest Mm-hmm. decision makers of if someone's going to succeed or not is having that camaraderie and getting that feedback.

It absolutely is. And it's funny, I see, I see agencies compensate. So I'll never forget there was a gentleman who I knew, I ran into at conventions. You know, you're in the business long enough, you start seeing a lot of the same faces, you get to build relationships. And I remember he was complaining that he was getting up roll-up debt and that he wasn't making any money and he's doing this for years. And I remember speaking with him about this and he was telling me what he was doing was he was giving really high commissions, but he was having the agents buy leads from a lead vendor. And so, so that doesn't work, uh, even if they have high commissions. I'm sorry, nowadays that doesn't work, guys. And, and he didn't really have any real training, like any, any real intensive training. And so he was compensated Compensating with the commissions, and it wasn't working. It was it was just getting him in more and more and more debt. It's funny because recently I I realized he's still doing the same thing. He's been doing this for years, and a lot of agency owners are kind of stuck in that thing where they're like they just don't really have the three-legged stool. They don't have everything you need, so they try to trade. They try to compensate, and it's funny. There's another issue that I run into now. So I'll get an agent that's with an agency like them, and we always have the same conversation. They come over to me, and I give fair contracts. I give basically street level. If if that agency is compensating, and they're giving even a higher contract, now I'm speaking with the agent. The agent's going, "Oh wait, you're only going to give me 110, 110 percent for this product, but I already have 120 percent." And so I'm kind of then I look at them, and I go, "Right." And you don't know how to sell. I call them on it. You don't know what you're doing and you don't— you're paying $25 for leads that I can generate for $7. Where's the value? And it's that mindset that's just kind of— that we see it's broken with these agents because, again, overcompensation. They don't have the 3 things. So let me take the one thing I've got and jack it up. You know, the one thing I can, I can, I can give more of and try to make up for the other 2. And it never works. It never, never works.

I think that it's so easy. You only know what you know, obviously. And whenever new agents start exploring where they're going to land, it's whoever's kind of the kindest one to them first. And it's like, there's so much other research to do that they're almost like, I don't wanna have to research this one. It sounds like that's one of the most, that's the most pivotal decision you can make when you first get started. So what would be, 2 things that an agent should look for before deciding where to land or who they should, they should work under and learn from?

You know, honestly, the best thing that you can do is research the person who you're speaking with about working with. If it's like an upline, because what'll happen is right now we've got all these agency owners and they call themselves that. And they got— we got this thing called Google. And you'll Google them and you'll go, why don't they have any real Google reviews on their website? That's weird. They got Glassdoor reviews, they got these other reviews, but they don't have any real Google reviews. And then, you'll go to their website and you'll say, oh, oh, look at all these testimonials. And then, what you'll realize is it's not that person's website, it's the FMO, whoever's at the top, it's their website. So, the next thing you know, you're working under a multi-level marketing insurance scenario where your commission is down here. And they're going, hey, don't worry, we got the carrot out there. Here it is. All you gotta do is write a little business and we'll bump you up to here. And then a little more business and we'll bump it up to here. And then eventually, you'll get up to here, which is basically minimum wage in the insurance industry. I see, we see it all the time. And I feel like it's a fail on top of a fail on top of a fail. Fail. So really, again, that's a long answer to your question. Research, just research the person that you're speaking with. Don't look— if you're gonna go with a big company, I'll just, you know, for example, let's say, I don't know, Symmetry Financial Group, you know, you're gonna see a lot of information on Symmetry, you know, on who they are. But the important thing is the person that you're direct to. So I'll give you another example. I had an agent who I spoke with an agent, didn't have— spoke with an agent just recently who is with one of those companies, and they show their commission structure on the website. You start here, and then you can get up to here, and then you can get up to here, and then you get up to here, right? This is life insurance.

Mm-hmm.

So, he's like, hey, it says you can get up to here. He said, but here's the problem. I've been with these people for over a year. I'm being told I'm one of— I'm my upline's best agent, and I can't even get to 105% when I'm supposed to be at 120 because he's telling me he's at 105%. So they're literally stuck in this MLM. I hate to say it, but it's a lie.

Mm-hmm.

It's, he's stuck in this thing. They won't release his contract. So now he's like, I don't know what to do. He's kind of, he's in the middle. And I have these type of conversations with people all the time. So again, it's just about researching the people that you're gonna work with. Literally, here's one. Literally, if you're going with Joe's Insurance Agency, try this. Google lawsuits Joe's Insurance Agency. You will be surprised what comes up.

And I'm not talking about Joe's.

I'm talking about the big boys.

You need like a checklist of like the ultimate checklist guide of who you decide to get under contract with. And here's like the warning things. Here's the things that you need to look at. I honestly think that that's something that would be really helpful. I get a lot of agents that reach out to me and I can just tell that they're just angry at the world from the very beginning, um, about, you know, wanting to like get to the bottom of like, what's the truth about my course and does it actually help? And they're very angry that this discount isn't working at this time. And sometimes I have to be like, I'm not gonna take it personally. Cuz I am nice to agents. Yeah. But so many agents are screwed over, over and over and over. So I'm like, I got it. I don't like your energy, bro. But like, I understand that you probably have been burned in the past and you should ask questions. So I'm being nice. Nice to you, but you need to be nice to me moving forward. That approach typically works, but they're burned so often.

I see that attitude too. I get that attitude and I sense it. And it's like, I'll get that in a text. And it's like, somebody today asked me about, you know, right now we're working, we have— our agents have access to call-ins, consumer-initiated call-ins. It's kind of rare. And he's like, how do I know they're any good? And I said, you don't. How do you—

Yeah.

And he's wanting a guarantee. And I'm like, there's no guarantees, man. All I know is the feedback I'm getting from other agents that have been using them, you know. And so there's no guarantees in this business, really, you know. No matter what, I hate to say it, I don't care. When it comes down to it, I don't care how good or bad the lead is. It's never the lead. And, and it's never the lead. Never, ever, ever the lead. It is like 99.999% the agent who is working the lead, either not working it correctly, not working it effectively, doesn't have, you know, the talent or skill set. Guys, the skill to sell, especially life insurance, it has to be developed and it does take time. And so most of the time it's not the leads. And so, you know, I have these conversations over and over and over. And so, no, there's no guarantee. Um, I used to have a guarantee on, on one of my websites, like, if you do everything I teach you to do and work this many leads, then you'll do this. But it was— and it was an accurate guarantee, but the truth is nobody can do exactly, you know, everybody makes minor changes. So—

But you're— I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna not disagree with you because it's not typically the leads, but I will say Your agency, you're getting mainly leads from Facebook ads, correct? That's right. That's one of your primary sources.

Yeah.

But the messaging on that ad is what changes everything. And if you have an agency that actually talks about final expense or getting some sort of burial insurance or protecting your family in your ad, then yes, you have the right messaging. But there are unfortunately so many lead vendors out there and even coming from probably agency owners that are then selling these leads. that aren't using messaging that speaks about the actual product. And I'm sure you've seen that, right?

Oh, over and over. It's, it's, it's very common to— for these misleading, uh, leads. Um, heck, so he— look, let me give you an example just to double down on the lead, on why I say it's not the lead, because it's funny that you bring this up. With telesales nowadays, there's no reason to work a lead that's like misleading.

Right.

When I sold final expense face-to-face in my first year, the direct mail card that we use said, you may qualify for a state-regulated program designed to pay for your final expenses. For more information, fill this out. That's what it said. Everybody thought, this is from the government, must be free. And so I took that lead And, you know, in my first year wrote over $420,000 of annualized premium. So, at the end of the day, yeah. But at least nowadays, it doesn't have to be like that. It doesn't have to be like that at all. But you still have to have the skill set because what happens is time, as you know, is not the friend of the lead. You know, someone fills out a lead form, the sooner you get to them, the better. Every hour, every day that goes by, and that lead—the value tends to be not as well. It starts to lose lose value, and and inadvertently, it's going to be harder not just to reach, but once you do reach them, you know that you get the knee jerk reactions. You're calling days later, and they're like, "Oh, I already took care of that," even though they didn't. Oh, I thought it was insert whatever it is because the knee jerk reaction is let me get rid of this person. I don't really need this, but they they were thinking about it then. The interest was there. when they first filled out the lead form. Every minute that goes by, that interest gets further and further away. And the next thing you know, they've got full-blown buyer's remorse and they haven't even gotten the price.

What has been the biggest— have you guys seen with the new iOS update that there's the screening, the unknown calls? Have you guys seen in your agency any issues with that or Are you alternatively reaching out in a little bit different way, like a text sometimes, or what's your dealing with that?

So I'm recommending— our agents are independent. I'm asking them to start doing more texting. You know, we've, we've put together a system that works through an agent that has a higher answer rate because of texting. So the agent with the higher answer rate must be doing something right. So, Joe Agent, what are you doing? I'm texting them. Okay, what's the message you're texting? That's the important part. So yeah, the agents that are doing that really are the ones that are getting into more presentations when it comes to like face-to-face sales. So some of the issues with the changes that we had with Meta, and I just had a long conversation with an agent last week who hasn't been selling and he's been with me for years and I'm like, what's going on? And he said, man, he blamed Meta. He said, man, you know, I'm I'm going to these people's houses and they're 30 years old and they're chasing me away because he does a lot of door knocking. He takes the lead, whatever lead, whether it's Facebook or online. Basically all he's worked his whole career, the past 5 years is internet type of leads. And so he's telling— he's like, it put me out of business. And he's— he literally has another job that he's working right now so that he can try to keep in the business. He's trying to figure it out and trying to rediscover himself too, I think. But that's one of the things. I mean, to me, that's, that's kind of a stinker. So our face-to-face agents, the few that we have, are the ones that are, I feel like, having to figure out other ways, more old-school ways, back to direct mail and then the cross-selling. To me, if you're selling face-to-face and you're a final expense agent, you probably should be selling Medicare anyways. You probably need to do both face-to-face.

Mm-hmm.

Now, if you're doing telesales, you can do one or the other. But face-to-face, they kind of both go hand in hand. It's, for some agents, it, it's the difference between you making it work or not.

Yeah. What I'm, I'm seeing with that in, for agents that are running their own ads on the lead form, they are able to check a little box now and it actually opens up a chat inside of Messenger. And there's been zero increased cost per lead on this. There's not any barrier. It's after they've already converted it. automatically opens it up in Messenger. And right now all it shows is basically the information they submitted. So it almost looks like it's a confirm thing.

Okay.

But it starts that conversation with the individual and then the agent. And that's kind of the backup where if you try to call them immediately, you don't get ahold of them, you can get them on Messenger, send your contact card, send like, that'll have a photo of you, your information, and it'll kind of remind them of Of why you're reaching out. So that's been kind of a good little backup that we've seen that I hope in the future will be customizable, like with AI, that maybe we could get some sort of conversation. Um, it's not there yet, but I think it will be pretty soon.

You know, I, I think for new agents, that's great, and that's easy to teach them how to use that. And we go back to the texting the leads too. It's the old agents that have been doing it the other ways that don't want to do this. They're like, I gotta make an— I gotta another step to the process, they're the ones that, you know, they just don't wanna do it. They—

so, and there's, and you've probably seen, I mean, I got into marketing in 2015 when I launched my first online business and was learning about it. I've seen so many changes in the past 10, 11 years. It's been, it's drastic in the world of, from, I first started learning Meta ads in 2016. It's crazy how it's changed. So I've just kind of accepted that there's going to be dramatic changes. It feels like, or what it seems like, is that in your industry, it feels like there's been a lot of changes, but it's happened quickly. Like you went one way for a long time and there's still a lot of agents that are kind of fighting against like, no, we have to be able to run ads this way or get leads this way. Have you seen that as a resistance? And does it feel faster in your industry that it's changed?

And it does, and it has. So, you know, really 5 years ago, I, we were still mainly a face-to-face agency. Then 4 years ago, when we started figure— when we figured out how to generate the leads really cheap and decent quality and high intent, that was when everything changed for us. And we basically overnight went from face-to-face to telesales. I think I've got 2 or 3 agents that still do face-to-face. You know, at one point there was over 35 of them, around 30, 35 of them. So it's just changed and that constantly does. And I feel like marketing does too. Look, you know it does. Different leads, they start really good and real easily. Facebook, when we started using Facebook leads, I was using them for face-to-face sales. I had a gentleman who, if you paid him $200, he would spend $150 on advertising and you were getting like 60 cents leads. And these are localized, and we were using them to call, set appointments, and door knock. I mean, it was crazy how cheap. So when that happened, it was, it was a big game changer for a lot of us. And so now there's other things that constantly happen. And so, you know, I could talk about my agency. With my agents, we basically give them a few different options. We want them to— one, we recommend one, they work with someone like Like Shauna, who will teach them how to generate their own leads. So now they control everything. Or what we do is we suggest, or we can run an ad funnel for you. So we don't recommend agents try to run an ad funnel because that is a more complex piece of machinery. It's different than just running Facebook ads using, you know, using the Facebook forms. It's got a lot of moving parts.

Mm-hmm.

And let me just say this, most people that can run Facebook ads and get the cost down per lead and make it work, Can't run an ad funnel. So we figured out a way. Hey, you know what? We can set up this ad funnel. We can manage it for you. We run it, and now we're getting the leads away from Facebook. You know, it's got pros and cons. So pro, you get more appointments. More of these people will set an appointment on your calendar, which means the intent is higher. Cons, the cost is double, sometimes three times the cost of like a regular Facebook. Lead. So that's one example. The other thing that we have, we've, we've, we've partnered with some people that basically specialize in inbound calls. So now what they do is they've got websites set up that they've had for years. And so what'll happen is a potential client or prospect will end up on one of these websites, they'll want a quote, and they get a Call Now option. So either that or through ads, And now what happens, the client hits the call now. And now what's going on with us is just a few months ago, we could only do this in a call center environment. Now we're able to do this with our independent agents. So now the client calls and the call goes into the system and gets routed to the next available agent. And so now the agent is the one answering the call.

Mm-hmm.

So that's pretty cool for independent agents. People have had systems like that. I know there's a company called All Calls that sells leads for like $50, these calls for $50 or $60, and there's nothing wrong with them if you want to have a conversation. But these people start off kind of like my old face-to-face clients. Is this free or is this—

Yeah.

This is from the government, right? That's what I thought. That's why I'm calling. And that's what that is. So thankfully we don't have to deal with that on, on our end with our leads, but that's That's, you know, one thing. It's just marketing changes.

Yeah.

And in 6 months from now, those calls— right now, right now, we're able to get them to our agents for $35 an inbound call. We don't know if it's going to be that way in 6 months. The way that our industry changes, that call could do what TV leads does— did. So, I'll give you another example. Years ago, we had TV commercial leads. We were getting them from— shoot, when I had my call center, About 9 years ago, we were getting them for like $43. Then just, just like 5 years ago, we were able to get them for like $52, $53. Now they're $80. It just don't work. You know, I don't care what commercial the client sees, what the intent is. The agent still has to have the skill set to close the sale and paying $60, $70, $80 for a lead It just doesn't work. So my point being, we don't know if we're going to be able to have this with these calls because the way that the industry is just constantly changing. What I do know is this: most agencies cannot keep up with it. And that's the one thing that I'm proud about that we've been able to do with that aspect. You know, the training, the carriers is one thing, but now with the leads, we're able to stay up with that so that our agents are getting them one way or another. Either they're generating themselves You know, using, using Facebook, or they're using our advertising funnel, or they're getting the inbound call-ins. So it's hard. 6 months from now, I may be saying 3 different options.

But I think that that's important. It's, it's like the people that act like they know everything. The reality is marketing, a large part of marketing is a hypothesis where you're like, I think this is going to work and it's going to work based on what I've seen in recent history and numbers. So I have all of these reasons to predict this will work. But it's also knowing that that's not going to always be that way. You, you will never figure out marketing and be finished with it. You'll probably never figure out— I actually, I think probably closing is a skill set that is less like changing with the times. It's getting them in the seat that is always going to be changing. And the fact that you're aware of that, you admit that, and you're like, we don't know, that Makes you even more trustworthy and shows that you're willing to grow and evolve with the times, which a lot of these larger, they're just stuck. There's too many people that have to approve changes, I think, for the changes to happen.

Mm-hmm.

Is what they run into. Look, Doug, this is what I wanna make sure that we talk about today because I wanna be respectful of your time. I have a lot of agents that this is the year that they are going to start developing their personal brand. They're gonna start posting online. Now you've made the decision to post online in more of a capacity to train agents and to help them, but these agents should be posting about whatever line of businesses that they're working in, building up trust. Stop being seen as a commodity. Start being seen as an advisor where even if they get the lead and then they look them up. So you have, like I said, 1,000 videos on YouTube, which is quite an accomplishment. So congrats on that. I wanna know how did, like, when did you say, okay, I'm gonna have to start doing the social media thing. I'm gonna have to get on YouTube.

When we started the agency, we're like, you know, I'm running ads, you know, on ZipRecruiter, you know, they were around back then and doing that type of advertising. And I realized, I'm like, this, if I can figure this thing out on YouTube, it's gonna be hard. And I knew it wasn't, it was, I think I could have something special. And that's where I kind of got lucky because I got in at the right time. There was only a couple of other people that were specializing in final expense. So, when I jumped in and my videos were god-awful, just everything, the sound, the look, you know, I'm like reading notes and doing edits and I had to learn how to do all that stuff, you know, in my 40s. And it was hard. It was a lot, but it worked. And I realized it had to be done. Now, nowadays, I feel like it's a little bit different. So when it comes to using social media, it's funny when people say social media, I don't think YouTube because I've been doing it so long because that's been my one-trick pony. So last year I made the commitment to change what I was doing on my Instagram, as you've seen on my TikTok, on Facebook. And so my Facebook up until about 6 months ago, All I used it for was posting things that I liked, that I could relate to with people that I, you know, went to school with and knew for years and family. That was all I used it for. Now, I've learned that you have to be able to use it for more for your business because that's a big part of who I am. You know, if you look at me from a year ago on Facebook, you wouldn't know that I'm who I am, who I really am, that, you know, I'm, I'm someone who sold final expense for years and built, developed this system and has this agency. You would think I'm some guy who's just a Miami Dolphin fan and is upset about everything that's been going on for years. Okay, that's what you would think. So now I've learned, by the way, from big help from you, uh, because of what— there's one video you put out about 5 or 6 weeks ago which is basically what to do, what not to do, what not to post, what to post, and basically how to be on social media. And it is— it was so huge for me. I was— because I'm watching this going, okay, I get excited because I'm going, oh my God, I'm doing a lot of this right as I'm watching it because I've already been doing it for months. But it's so important. And now here's what's happening. Now I've got people reaching out to me That are insurance agents that I never had before. And they're like, hey, Doug, you know, and then a lot of times it starts with, I seen you on YouTube, or I seen something you posted somewhere. And the next thing you know, they're asking me a question about what we do at our agency, which it has changed everything for us.

Yeah.

And the potential— let me say it, it hasn't changed everything. It's starting to make huge changes. Because I'm already bringing in new agents because of this. But I see the potential of it that I didn't respect a year ago. Like a year ago, I just didn't see that as an option. Social media was this hard thing in my mind to grasp. It was what I used to, you know, to post my breakfast and to complain about, you know, Tuatunga Viola's Quarterbacking for the Miami Dolphins. Yeah.

I'm so sorry that you're a Miami Dolphins fan. I'm so sorry. Um, no, I, I, I'm a Cowboys fan, so you should feel bad for me this year too. But no, the fact that you just took this step to get started and whether you realize it or not, like one, now that you've been posting on YouTube, you have people that are coming to you. You have created a little bit of like a funnel that is doing this work for you that is building relationships. And agents need to see the way that they're drawn to different people on YouTube that they feel like they know. Your clients and potential clients and prospects can feel the same way about you. And it's like they forget that they are a human that is a lead for certain businesses as well, and they expect the other leads to be completely different. And it's this, it's, it's the same thing, right? It's relationship building.

You wanna know the crazy part about this? My wife has been doing this for years. Without thinking about it. She's just this super friendly person and her clients love her. She goes to help a client yesterday or the day before, and the day before New Year's, she goes to help them with a Medicare plan. She comes home with this thing of chicken and, and, and, uh, like fruit. And she— they, they love her. And so what happens is they're in— they're asking her, hey, you know, can we be friends on Facebook? So, she's been doing this and not even realizing it, that it's working for her, for her business, because they're reaching out to her on Facebook saying, hey, I'm a little concerned about something. Like right now, here's what recently happened. A lot of these clients, their— oh geez, I forget what it's called— their Part B premium, the amount of money they have to pay—

Their deductible?

The deductible. Like, things like that changes, and so what they have to pay to— for their, um, for their Social Security, what they have to pay, that payment went up and they're all hitting her. Hey, why am I having to pay more? And so, she's getting stuff through, through, uh, Facebook. And the next thing you know, she's back in front of them and getting referrals or re-helping them.

Yeah.

So, it's just— if you're an agent, you have to be doing that. You have to build your brand. You can, you can keep your Relationships with your high school friends, they're going to see it. You don't have to come off as some marketer. That video, if you should post the link for that video that I'm talking about, I can't remember what it was called.

I will. So I think you're meaning I say people, you want people to see you at C C C E E E, and you want them to get a sense that you have comprehension, compassion, and character. So comprehension, you're an expert. Compassion, you care about them. And character, like you're Miami Dolphins fans. I'm gonna say that. Yes, a normal person. And then you need to post education, empathy, and entertainment, and that kind of just makes you a well-rounded person. So I think that that's the one that you're meeting.

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, hey, look, we're both kind of in the same boat. I don't, I don't see the Cowboys doing anything. They're not the America's team that they, that they were back, you know, in the '90s. So the problem is with the Dolphins is They're not the team that they were back in the '70s. It's been that long.

That's true. Well, I got my husband who's 49ers fan and they're still in it, so I have to deal with that. Always. Well, okay, just to, to kind of close in, what— because this is an issue that Asians have, so I just want you to speak on it super quickly. Your personal page, people are afraid that they're— what are my friends are going to see me from high school? Or like, what if people know that I'm an insurance agent? It's like, I want to be a secret agent on my personal page. But I think what you mentioned, and I feel this way as an entrepreneur, it becomes part of who you are, and that's the only way you can be successful. What would you say of breaking through that and taking that first step of actually starting to post and knowing that people are going to see you?

You don't, you don't post the same thing. You don't post, hey, by the way, I've got life insurance. Anybody You need to— you don't post that every week, right? You can post something like that every now and then, and it just, it just puts it out. There's, there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it. When you do it the right way, it's very effective, and you, you're not that guy at the bar, at the barbecue, the family barbecue that everybody's avoiding.

Yeah.

It's different than the old school way. The old school way, approach everybody, approach your family, approach your friends, and now, like, you're treated differently. It's not like that. It's acceptable. My family asks me questions about my posts. At Christmas, we were having conversation about what's been going on on Facebook with me. They— it actually opens doors when you do it right.

Well, Doug, I really appreciate you being here today. I'm going to make sure that I have any of your information that you want to share linked in the description so agents can find you. You are a wealth of information. And on top of that, you truly care about the agents that you work with, and that's something that it just shines through with you. So I appreciate you sharing that with us today.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Hopefully we can do this again soon.