The hard stuff is ok with Sherry!

Hey, there we go.

Hey Shawn.

Hey Sherry, how are you?

I am so glad to be here talking about the hard stuff is okay. I love this, I love this. And if anybody's here now, if anybody joins us later, if you've been here with us before, thank you. Like, this is so important, having a space to just whatever comes up that feels hard.

Yeah, and it's okay because it says it in the title, right?

Exactly, it says it. We have permission.

We have permission. Um, and something that, that Sherry and I— this comes up every time we do the growth day meeting, and I tend to bring it up in these follow-up meetings. I don't know, the bonus Sherry time. Bonus chariot time is what I have on my calendar. But, you know, let's go back to this idea that we have multitudes, right? You know, I think Susan Cain talks about melancholy. You have strong, like, positive and negative feelings. That's a polarity. But, you know, we can experience extreme stress, extreme grief, extreme sadness, extreme loneliness, on and on and on. And also have space for joy, right? It's not mutually exclusive, right? And that feeling of melancholy is that mix of those two spaces where they kind of meet.

I love the way you said all that.

Cool.

Yes. And we do always like to say, in case there's anyone who hasn't joined us before, Shawn and I started doing these 100 years ago when we were both reading Bittersweet, Susan Cain's book. So we always like to say hi to Susan Cain, whether she's—

Hey, Susan.

Because that's true, right? That book, we were reading that book, and as coaches, we were both like, yes, there's room for all of it. And in fact, um, there needs to be room for all of it. I feel like our culture is sort of like elbowing out the, the melancholy or the hard stuff and trying to, you know, pretend sometimes that it's not there and I love that we bring it back together.

Me too. Me too.

And this idea of the reason I love every time you say that about we contain multitudes is for one thing, inevitably, when we're on the call or if we have other people in the Growth Day meetings with us, there is hard stuff. I mean, there's death, there's illness, there's siblings situations, there's just situations with our children that are really hard. There's lots of stress and grief. And we never have a meeting where we don't say— and this is the moment where I'm going to say it here— there's such a joy in being together in these conversations. Yeah. And I just think that— I know you bring that up all the time when we talk about that book, Bittersweet. And anybody who's watched— what's the Pixar movie with Joy and Sadness?

Inside Out.

Inside Out, right? I mean, that's always also talked about, that quiet joy that comes from being in a very real conversation with someone. Yeah.

Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

You were going to say something. Go for it.

Well, OK, two things I wanted to say. One is I wanted to tell people, because I I'm still so delighted by the fact that I was going to Shawn's neighborhood across the bay last week and meeting somebody, a friend of mine. And on the way, I just thought, hey, Shawn lives right there. I wonder if he could come out. We could talk for 5 minutes or just sit on his porch or just— I mean, I just had the, like, I never get to do that when you live in a big city. And as it turned out, Shawn was just passing by the BART station when I was coming. And that was— you called it, I'm going to use your words and attribute it to you— you said little levers of joyfulness. Right? Like, that brought me— and I was really having a hard, hard, hard morning. And I was so delighted, you know, maybe that, that, you know, the depth of our sorrow, like, allows for the breadth of joy, right? That it was like, Maybe it was even magnified, but just seeing you and hugging you, that was a great example of the multitudes.

Yeah. No, I love that. Well, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that you were having a tough morning that day, but I felt the joy when I saw you, just the brightness and the energy, and I felt it myself, you know, of getting to see someone in your tribe. You're like, oh, like, this is part of— you're, you're part of my people. And so great to share the same space as you, you know.

And what I was going to say, the second half of that story, um, so I was meeting who— I kind of a new friend, right? Someone that I've only met a couple times. And, uh, and what happened was we sat down and the first thing she asked me about a piece of jewelry that I was wearing. And I burst into tears.

Oh, wow.

Right.

Wow. Okay.

Like, oh, wow. So new friend, like, not something I would typically like, you know, think I'm gonna do. And, and yet it happened. And the reason I'm bringing this up is that this whole idea of the joy of connection. She was so beautiful. I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. She was like, what are you sorry about? We came here to be together. I want to be with you. If this is who you are in this moment, then let's welcome. I mean, it was so beautiful and truthfully super connecting. If I had put on my cardboard Sherry mode, which I've been known to do, like, okay, I'll button it all up and um, we would have had an entirely different connection. And I think this is, this is part of— it's very vulnerable to have hard stuff at the table anywhere.

Yeah, oh, definitely. I've been thinking more broadly of like, how do you know if something is human? You know, we live in a world of screens and you see writing. Is it built by a robot and someone just did a very like one-off write an article about cats wearing pajamas or whatever it is?

Right.

And, you know, the idea that's been coming up and this is kind of— we talked about this, I think, the last time we had dinner together, but what You know, the— what does it mean to be like a creator first? Or what does it mean to be a human first in your processes and the tools you use in your relationships? How do you not become the cardboard version of yourself? But how do you insert you where you are right now? That was the connection that I made where it's like, we do this in so many— we— shield ourselves or protect ourselves in our lives and our businesses and the work that we do through process and tools and facades. And the real relationship, the real connection that we all crave is that intimacy of here's who I am right now and that acceptance. That's what I heard when you were sharing.

Yes! Oh!

It's like, I accept you where you are right now.

That was—

yeah, thank you.

That was so beautiful. And as it turned out, on the train on the way back, I— not consciously, but I turned on— I love Anderson Cooper's All There Is. I've probably spoken many times about it. I hadn't listened to the latest episode, which was Sarah Bareilles, um, had actually just released some music about grief. And so he was talking to her. But it was interesting because when I turned on their, their podcast, one of the first things they were talking about is how Everybody wants to be seen and known and loved for who they are. And yet, and yet, like, how much— like, to your point, like, how we all want to be seen and loved for who we are, and yet it's so vulnerable to be unmasked in the world.

Yeah, because we've all had the experiences of expressing our true self and being rejected, you know? Um, like, what's wrong with you? Okay, so like, what's wrong with you? Come on, right?

Or the worst of it, which, you know, I feel like— I mean, bless all of everyone's hearts who do this, but it's like, oh, there's so much to be happy about, don't be sad, you know? Which, you know, of course there is. You know, and, and, you know, we're human and we have feelings, and it's— yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sometimes you're in it and it's okay to be in it, you know. And it's also— there have been moments in my life where there's been an insurmountable amount of work or an insurmountable situation where there has to be some level of acceptance of like, this is happening, right?

Yes.

I have, in 2 weeks, I have this big project. I have the work of 50 people that needs to get done. It's only me. I don't know how it's gonna turn out, but I know that it will, right?

Yes.

Or my mom's in the hospital and we're putting her on hospice and I don't want to be there to witness the end of life because of how tough that is. But this will also pass. And kind of acknowledging it and being able to sit with it, you can actually do the— or make the conscious choice to engage with it. And that's always been where a lot of either the most amazing or beautiful moments kind of shine through, you know, like Sitting and singing Beatles songs to my mom. Oh, you know, the last night she was alive because that was her favorite band, you know, and that was the way to connect with her. Or, you know, figuring out in 9 months how to run a marathon when you can't run 5 minutes straight, you know. Like, we can do great things and we can do it through that acceptance, you know. Um, and I had a better way to connect it back, and I kind of just went out in the weeds, but I think— oh, sorry, go ahead.

Well, if I may, Shawn, I wanted to connect it back, which is a little bit of a different angle on it. But the reason I love when you say we contain multitudes is because I'm a huge fan of Not This Not That or Not Black Not White. But like, to me, I love that we contain multitudes because I can sit down Shawn and burst into tears at a table with a new friend, and then 15 minutes later be laughing about something that she says. Like, those don't cancel each other out. It doesn't have to be this or that. Yeah. And I think partly for me, it's like, it's really hard to come with— let's say the tears are at the ready and then someone is like, um, no, no, yeah, then there's like, you can have the that but you can't have the this, and there's something out of balance. I can do it, um, but it doesn't feel wholehearted.

Yeah, I mean, maybe a different way to phrase it is, how can you trust someone that would only like you at your best if they can't handle you at the worst parts, right? Or the— and that's negative feelings aren't the worst, but it's, you know, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And I love that. And I wanted to say a tool that really helped me. First of all, we were all talking about meditation, and I want to make sure I just said that word because that came up in our previous meetup. And meditation, I love meditation because meditation is exactly the not this, not that. It's the all of it. But also, I was telling you, and I just want to say this to anyone listening here, that I made a recording for myself just minutes before our previous meetup where I was musing out loud about— I call them pinpricks of light. Some people call them glimmers, little— you call it— I love lovers, little lovers of joy. Whatever they are, like the tiny moments of light and love and well-being and your joy in the midst of heartbreak or grief or illness or angst or anxiety. And I was— when I was actually making the list, it became very apparent to me, just as it did in, in our conversation about multitudes, that often they go together, right? Like my friend Kirsten has been going on walks with me almost every week by the Embarcadero. It's beautiful at night, and she's helping me work through a lot of stuff that's hard. And inevitably, we laugh, and there's other things, and, you know, it's deep connection. It's, it's become a ritual. There's so much, you know, there's so much in it. Or these with you, you know.

Yeah, these mean— yeah, I was thinking about too. It's like these talks have been very helpful being in it or preparing to be in it or being on the other side of it and meeting other people who are also like, you know, yeah, it's always reminds me of just humanity. Being human is the tragedies and the triumphs and all of that together, all those keywords, I guess. But got me kind of wondering too, for you, when you think about Is there any other things outside of like Susan Cain talking about melancholy and that being connective, talking about the hard stuff, that influenced you? Because I often in the back of my head somewhere when I was much younger heard about like the Greek philosophy of emotions, you know, like masculinity where like men could cry because something was tragic and you know, be— express merriment and, you know, holding all of these emotions was a cultural thing. And the kind of like the classic view of how to be in the world. So I'm not sure if there's anything for you that shows up.

I love that you brought that up though. That was a brand new— that was a brand new angle on this that we haven't really done. Thanks, Shawn Buttner. Yeah, I mean, for me, definitely, like, I've been practicing Zen with the same spiritual teacher for 35 years now. And I know that a lot of people see Zen as like, you know, oh, Zen, you don't have any feelings. And that's the farthest thing, really. I mean, Zen is really, it's about allowing and experiencing, but not grasping on to. I mean, and so for me, That's partly, I think, has had a big influence on, you know, often, like, I'm very aware if there's a story going on. So there can be the grief or the pain or whatever. And then when it turns into a, you know, then that might be a time that I will look at a beautiful tree and just kind of redirect or feel something like, how do my bare feet feel on the grass, or And so I think Zen is a beautiful teacher of neither this nor that.

Yeah, I like that observer and redirection. You know, that like, okay, I'm feeling this way. Okay, maybe this is— I'm latching on to this too much. Let's try to let go. Of that story, as you were saying.

Well, right. And I love that you just did that, right? Because to me, and I've been practicing for a long time, I didn't used to know that there was a difference between what my head was telling me and what my body was experiencing and how connected they are. I mean, this, you know, this total, like, coaching too, right? That it's like, um, don't believe everything you think, right?

Or feel. Or feel. Yeah. You know, feelings aren't truth, right?

I mean, that too. Yeah. I mean, I love that. One of my dear friends, we've been talking a lot about things that sort of got lodged in our nervous system, probably before we were born. Who knows? But definitely from the time we were tiny, you know, and the nervous system has its own, like, truth that is, like, lodged back in the 1960s. Right, so don't— yeah, there's also that. Yeah, I mean, I give us a lot of credit, all of us, for being out here walking around on two legs trying to navigate all this.

Yeah, it's a— it can't— it can be a lot, and it can— and it can be everything, you know. Like, it's again multitudes.

Multitudes. I love that. Do you want to end there? Did you have something else that was lingering that you wanted to make sure you got to say.

The other thing that kind of dropped in, and I know this has been kind of— it always feels like to me a little bit kind of free associative, like here's where we're at, but that's what I love about it. I was listening to a psychiatrist talk about emotional resilience. Oh. And he was saying that emotionally intelligent people are able to add on emotions I'm feeling depressed. And the example he uses is like, say you break up with a partner and you're feeling totally broken up about it. And you're like, you know, the last month of it was terrible, but you were together for 3 years. The more emotionally resilient person in his observation will be able to remember the 3 years leading up to that month as like the good times and can experience the joy. And conversely, like when things— when you have like an idea for a new business or like, I'm gonna, you know, it's gonna be great, I'm going to do it, they'll bring in the negative emotion of doubt or worry, like, well, what if it didn't happen? And it allows them to make better decisions and be more stable. And I thought that might be another fun thing to at least bring up.

Yeah, thank you, Shawn. That feels like something— do you think you can remember that next time we come back?

Maybe, uh, maybe.

I think there's a high probability because that feels like something we could unpack a little bit more. Um, but I'm glad you brought it up now just to sort of maybe plant that seed. And, uh, yeah, we can— and we can also think about your question of like, what else have we read or that's influenced us and I like that. I like that a lot. I'm so grateful to you. Thank you.

Thank you. This is again always so fun and so freeing.

So what?

Freeing. I feel much lighter. Me too.

Me too. Yeah, I'm so grateful that you're willing to just show up, you know, and, and see what happens. That is really freeing. There's a lightness to that, right? We don't Like, it's the opposite of cardboard Sherry for sure. Like, oh, I don't know what we're going to talk about. All right, so I'll see you soon, and thank you again. Anybody who's listening now or might be listening later, thanks, we really appreciate it.

Yeah, thanks everyone. Thanks, Sherry.

Thank you, Shawn. Till next time. Yep, bye.

See ya.