A Sense Of Belonging With Jyotika Acharya

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Jyotika, Jyotika Acharya. I'm looking forward to our conversation today, Jyotika. It's been a while and you've been going through the mill, as you explained to me, right?

Yeah, thank you for having me.

You're welcome, you're welcome. Um, so a lot of us are going through the mill at the moment, and, and Jyotika works in Leeds and Nick's Katie do a lot of international adoption. And before we hit record, you were saying that resilience is key, um, and, and it's a theme that we keep on coming back to and, and, and back to on the, on the Thriving Adoptees podcast. So 650 episodes in, I would guess, I don't know how many, 10, probably 10, at least 10% of those we've talked about, um, what we've talked about resilience, and, uh, you were telling me about the tough stuff that, that you're, that you're going through, but you, you were doing that with a smile on your face, right? So that tells me you're either laughing rather than crying, or I, I just don't know, like, what— tell me what, you know, where, where do you draw your resilience from, Jyotika? What, what does resilience mean to you?

Um, it actually, it connects to how I define thriving because I know that, um, that's a question that you're going to kind of ask me as well. And I thought about like, what does thriving mean to me? And I think I, I go back to, um, you know, being able to say thriving is not perfection. Thriving is understanding what I want who I am facing challenges with growth and positivity as the guide and the ability to continue moving forward. And that is kind of like par on par with resilience, right? So, um, I think when there is challenging times, I go back to knowing that I am safe And I am whole and we're gonna get through this, right? Um, and being able to stay calm, collected through the process. So yeah, that's kind of where I am right now.

So it's about— is it about your— in a word, is it about your grounding or your roots or—

Yeah, I mean, I think everyone has their background, family, personality that defines who they are and how they're grounded. And I think I've had the privilege of living a life from childhood until adulthood where I felt very grounded and protected to be able to face challenges in my life. I think that's what helps me to lead as an adult as well.

Yeah, for me, there's— you said, um, keeping on going. For me, there's always— there's also a fact that that's all it is, right? I just keep going. I don't shrink back in a way that it's more about what I do than how I feel. Because I know that my feelings are all over the place. You know, one minute I'm the king of the hill, the next minute I'm, you know, I'm forecasting all sorts of bad futures, right? So I kind of— I know that my thoughts and my feelings are kind of all over the place. What's more important than, than what I think or how I feel is I just keep going, like, no matter what. So it's, it's, it's more about tenacity and, and action than it is about emotional or psychology.

Yeah, and I think for me what always comes to mind is that the only constant in our lives is change. And so knowing that, although we feel many emotions, because I definitely do, um, it's going to change. It's not going to be something that is permanent. And so that also kind of drives my ability to say, okay, let's just keep moving forward because this is not going to be forever and it's going to change, but I have control over how I react to it and where I lead my future. So I'm going to keep going in that positive direction.

Yeah, yeah, it sounds like we're together on that. Um, it's about action. That— you mean, you mean that the, the feelings are going to change and the situations are going to change?

Exactly. Yeah, but our actions is things that we can control. Yeah, so we have to choose what works for us in the direction that we're going.

Yeah. One of the things that's, uh, coming clear to me at the moment is this idea that— or the truth, as far as I can, as far as I can see at the moment— is that, that our— like, I— we often talk about trauma, trauma and the relationship between trauma and, um, and thriving. And it seems to me that the, the feelings of trauma come and go. They're not a constant either. And somehow that feels quite significant for me. Um, what do you make of that?

Um, Yeah, I mean, you know, trauma isn't linear. It's kind of cycles. And so that makes sense, right? Just like how 2 people can have the same traumatic event but receive it very differently and react from it very differently. So I definitely agree with kind of the ups and downs of trauma and how we deal with it. And also time. You know, time to digest and understand trauma can also affect how you react to it from the date of the event to 20 years later. Yeah, right. Those are very two, um, images of the same traumatic event.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

Do you see, do you see a distinction between trauma and traumatic events?

From an emotional standpoint, or just as, um, I mean, the traumatic event leads to the interpretation of that trauma for that person, right?

Yeah.

But how it affects that person is very different to the actual traumatic event. Yeah.

Right.

So yes, they are different, but one affects the other. One doesn't— is not there unless the other is there. Right. You have to have a traumatic event to then have that trauma experience.

Yeah. So how do you see the relationship between trauma and thriving?

I think it's hard to, you know, if you only had good experience in life, which is unrealistic, it's hard to then be able to see what, how you can overcome challenges, right? So I think in order to thrive, we have to experience trauma. And again, trauma is a spectrum, so I'm not Talking specifically about, and you know, on this end or that end. But in general, events that can be traumatic in our lives actually allow us the ability to then better understand who we are and how we can overcome and therefore thrive. So I think you do need one to be able to really see the potential as a human for thriving, right? But I think. The level of trauma that you experience also guides your ability to have coping mechanisms in place to be able to thrive. So what if you have traumatic— if you're having a traumatic childhood, your adulthood could be impacted by the fact that you didn't have the right foundation to understand how to overcome that trauma, right? So I think it's really important that children are given the foundation that they deserve to be able to thrive, right? Does that, does that make sense? Because if they don't, then you're expecting an adult who has not— can't understand, you know, or doesn't have the tools to understand how to thrive, and expecting them to thrive.

Yeah, yeah. So let's, let's broaden it out a minute and let's go back to the question that you're probably expecting me to ask you first, right? So what, what does thriving mean to you, Jyotika?

Um, thriving to me is really going back to Being able to feel whole as a person, right? I'm not seeking perfection. To me, if I say okay, I've thrived in as a person, I'm looking at the relationships I have. I'm looking at the challenges I've overcome. I'm looking at my ability to be able to grow as an individual in my. Home for myself, that is thriving for me. So as a person, have I— am I thriving? I'm looking at these relationships and my community and where I am and what I am doing to impact my community for the better.

So when I, when I hear the word wholeness Um, I see that as kind of the, the, uh, the, the end of healing, right? So what, what healing means to me, healing is seeing our wholeness and feeling whole.

Yeah.

So that, that's the kind of the individual, uh, individual part, part of it. And the— and also it's about being okay with the whole of our emotions as well.

Yeah.

Rather than trying to kind of suppress them, or, you know, it's, it's the, it's the, the stuff that we've processed. It's the stuff that we've processed. So I think about that as Healing as being the process and kind of wholeness is also my whole— sorry, wholeness is maybe the outcome from that.

Yeah, absolutely. And not just the good emotions, right? When we talk about healing, we have to be able to acknowledge the emotions that don't make us feel great and/or uncomfortable. Right. So those are the hardest. When you talk about healing and/or feeling whole, you have to recognize the emotions that trigger behaviors that you may be uncomfortable with and saying, you know, where is this coming from? What am I feeling? And be able to retract and say, okay, this is where it's stemming from. And understanding that emotion good, bad, or indifferent is really, really important to healing. It can't just be the good stuff, it has to be bad as well.

So your definition of thriving seems to have both that kind of internal, uh, aspect and external aspects. So can you expand a little bit more on that?

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I In anything that we do, I think in life it starts from who we are inside, then goes outwards. Right? So nothing to do with adoption, but like we we talk about you know our physical appearance, for example. Right? And you go to the doctor and say, you know, I. have this on my skin, or I don't feel this way, or I don't feel as good as I want to. And we focus on the outside. And typically a lot of nutritionists, doctors, professionals in this area will say, we need to go inward. Let's look at what's happening inside of your body, because that's going to be a reflection of what's out here. And I think emotions and our behaviors, um, and our thoughts are the same. What's happening here and inside of our bodies is reflective of how we behave, how we react, what triggers us—all of the things that you see on the outside. So it always starts in the inside, right? I think it's a—I'm not Buddhist, but I do love Buddhist philosophies, and I love the idea of. Meditation. And when you take thoughts from inside, you recognize those thoughts before then taking them out into the world. I think it's a great practice to be able to center yourself and say, you know, how am I reacting to this? Who— what, what is this doing for me, this emotion, this thought? But starting from the inside.

That makes sense. Um, I, I guess the, the Buddhist, uh, Buddhist philosophy would, would separate who we are from the thoughts that we think though, right?

It would, but I think they're interrelated, right? In order to separate them, you have to understand them. So even if you are like, when you're meditating and you Have a thought, you have to acknowledge that thought before you let it go. Right? So it's really important to understand your environment, not just outside, but internally as well. Right? Majority of our impressions of ourselves is not from outside. It's within ourselves. Right? We have already made up mind, our minds up of who we are and how we feel about ourselves. And that self-talk of how we praise ourselves or we're negative towards ourselves impacts who we are without anyone saying anything about who we are. All right, so it's like that internal understanding of your feelings, your thoughts, is really, really important to me. I think it really helps in the process of healing.

A guy that I follow talks about meditation being who we are rather than a process that we do. Does that make any sense to you?

Meaning like, um, the act of meditating is who we are, or The purpose of meditating?

Um, what he's, what he's getting at— this is a chap called, um, Rupert Spira, who is a, a, a non, a non-dual teacher. So non-duality draws on lots of— what draws on the essence of lots of different religions, including Buddhism. And so he would, he would express this as perhaps a Buddhist might, through a metaphor. So what, what he's saying, meditation is, is who we are. That means that we are the, the peace of the sky, right? The sky— we, our natural state is at peace. That, that's the sky. And the clouds are our feelings.

Ooh.

And clearly trauma is a felt thing. It's made of feelings, or it's made of feelings, made of thought. And therefore that's the cloud that is obscuring to some degree the sky, but it's not changing the sky.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a great way to look at it. I think that's a great metaphor. I don't know what you would call that. I mean, if we think about who we are, um, and how we define ourselves, you know, and if we are the sky and we're that constant, we're ever, you know, nothing can change us. It's just the clouds that are in front of us that we have to analyze and understand and let pass, right? I think that's a beautiful way of recognizing who we are as people, because I think at the heart of it, all human beings are good. That's just my perspective in life, right? It's what happens to us that changes our behaviors, our thoughts, and who we are. So if we can go back to the original of like We were born as good people, right? And we can get back to that. Then it's— you can change it. You have that power, right? But it's— our minds are very, very powerful. Our brains are very powerful. And so we have to understand our brain before we can then make that change.

Yeah. Yeah, you know, you mentioned identity 2 or 3 times. Um, it's— I think from one perspective it can be kind of a many-layered and a very complex subject, and from another, like from this perspective, well, we're the sky. That's a pretty simple way of looking at it. Um, how do you see How do you see identity?

Yeah, I mean, you know, I have this conversation with my son all the time. Like, I am your mother, but I'm also Jyotika. I am a daughter, but I'm also a supervisor. You know, I'm a supervisor, but I'm also a colleague. Like, we take on so many roles, and our identities are You know, so complex that I think, um, I try to go back to the root, which is, you know, who am I to the core? I mean, I am a person that thrives to be kind and to be gentle to the world. I thrive to, um, you know, surround myself with people that are supporting me and I am supporting them. And it goes back to that emotional component, right? But identity can be, you know, developed over time. It can change over time. It can be something that you manifest. It could be something that, you know, this year I identify as X, and the next year it may evolve into something else. But I think going back to, like, The root of how you identify yourself as a person, I think, can really help you to better understand, like, where you fit in this world. Yeah. You know, what is your purpose? Yeah. But it is complex.

Yeah. What have you learned about identity and adoption in your years in this space, Jyoti?

Yeah. I think, you know, identity plays such an important role in feeling whole and in turn thriving. Like, those 3 things are very much linked together. Um, I think in my professional role, my goal is always to think about like, how am I— how— what am I doing today that I can do better from yesterday? It's help adoptees thrive and therefore feel whole, then that goes back to their identity, right? I don't want them to just belong in a family. I want them to be able to know who they are and why they belong, right, in a family. So it's understanding the painful parts alongside the great parts to be able to feel whole. It goes back to knowing where you came from, how you were born. I mean, simple things, you know.

Yeah.

If possible, your biological parents, their circumstances, the circumstances of, um, the adoption plan being developed, you know. Those are really, really critical components to an adoptee, in my opinion, because it helps them to understand the evolution of their life and how they got to where they are today.

So what do you think drives our thriving?

As from the perspective of a professional or from the perspective of—

Let's start with, let's start with you and then we'll broaden it out to the, to the adoptees if we, if that's okay.

Yeah, meaning like Sorry, ask the question one more time.

What helps? What drives our thriving? Our thriving as human beings? Your thriving as a human being at its most kind of essential?

Yeah, to feel a purpose, right? Not to get so philosophical. I feel like our whole conversation has been very philosophical, but it really, it comes down to like, you know, what is— why am I here on this earth? What is my purpose? You know, um, I think we get a lot of our purpose from our environment and our, um, uh, nurturing our, um— And some of it, some is inherently in us as human beings, I feel, as well, right? But I think our purpose plays a big role in our ability to thrive, and our purpose is, um, impacted heavily with our own feeling of self and our identity, feeling whole. You know, when we have those things, I think we can find our purpose. When we have gaps in feeling whole, then we get— we're focused on feeling whole and not what our purpose is. And so then you're always searching for something else. I don't— does that make sense?

Um, yeah, I, I think this is what you're getting at. You're back to that internal-external thing. So the, the, the in— the internal feeling of, of wholeness it gives us the grounding to go out there and make a difference, uh, be— come from— be coming from a safe place and expressing ourselves in the world rather than somebody that is shut down and, um, locked away in their— locked away in their room. Uh, you know, depression— people with a lot of depression don't tend to go out a lot, do you know what I mean? It's that It's, it's, it's, it's, is our focus, uh, is our focus on our own troubles, or, or is our focus, uh, out making a difference in, in, in the world? And until you felt— until you felt— you feel whole on the inside, then you're not going to be doing a lot of work on that. Not be— not be focusing on the outside.

Yeah.

Because you— everything's gonna— all your resources are are kind of driven on your solving your own issues. That's—

Yeah, correct. Yeah. And I mean, sometimes I think it's hard to find the space if you are playing catch-up, right, to do that. If you're given that ability as a child and you develop it over your childhood, it's much easier to do that self-reflection later in life, right? Because you've already gone through the areas of feeling safe, of understanding that you belong, and then you can gradually go into developing an identity and then being able to face challenges in life and thrive. I mean, they're so interconnected. I mean, it's not saying that children that haven't had that ability in childhood can't be resilient and overcome and be able to heal and thrive, but it definitely changes the trajectory. And so I think as professionals, as humans, we need to do our best to be able to give children that opportunity when they're young, you know, um, so that they can thrive.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I once, um, I once interviewed— no, it wasn't an interview, to be fair. I spoke with a trauma expert years ago, and it wasn't an adoption trauma expert. It was a broader trauma that she was looking at. And I said, so what's the difference that makes the difference? Because as I understand it and as the data shows, not everybody that's in a that goes through a traumatic event has PTSD, right? So I was asking her about that, um, and, and she listed, she listed, uh— so I said, what's the difference that makes the difference whether you get PTSD or you don't? And she listed a lot of, um, um, factors. And it struck me that I said, those are all internal— sorry, sorry, those are all external factors. What about the internal factors? Um, and, and she, she kind of drew a blank on that, which I thought was really interesting. Her focus was purely on the external. But what you've been talking about is far more holistic. It, it's far more internal, uh, as well. So what, what do you think is the, the internal difference that makes the difference, or the external difference? Or, you know, take, take both, answer both as you like.

Um, I mean, maybe my thought is, you know, growing up I was raised Hindu, and so there was a lot of focus on looking inward whenever there was a problem. So maybe that's where my root is coming from, of like looking internal. My father meditates 4 hours a day, so there's a lot of internal reflection in my house.

Yeah.

And even growing up, it was very much like, you know, you cannot do anything for anyone else unless you know how to do things for yourself, right? You can't solve problems or help others solve problems unless you know how to solve your own. So there was always that bringing back to you component. Maybe that's why I'm rooted this way.

Yeah.

And don't get me wrong, I think our external factors can have a huge impact on how we Um, interpret and heal and understand and overcome. But, um, I think if we're taught how— what we need to then establish clear boundaries, then it's very easy to say, okay, this is not a me problem, this is a you problem, but here's what I need to thrive. can you give me that? And be able to have that exchange, right? Um, and so I was taught that very early in life, and so I've used that as like a mechanism, a tool to be like, to have meaningful conversations with people. And don't get me wrong, there are triggers that—

Yeah.

You know, I, I'm like, why am I so triggered by this? And it's because I don't know how to bring it back to me, but Um, it's a practice I'm trying to work on every day. Yeah, and that's kind of like, I guess, where I, where I get it from, is that teaching from a young age, from in my own home.

And it, it kind of, although you raised the issue, it kind of fits in with the American way because the, the American way is a bit more self-reliant than the British way as a, as a culture. Yeah.

Yeah, that could have an impact as well. I mean, being South Asian, I think we have a heavy emphasis on family and making sure that what we are doing is not just for ourselves but for our community and our— because it takes a village. That was very clear early on in my life. Um, but it's interesting that you point that out because, um, I did grow up in the US, right? I— this has been my experience. And so I've always wondered how being South Asian and immigrant in the United States has impacted my ability and why— am I more American or am I more Nepalese?

Yeah.

Right? And I've always been on that like middle where it's like one door, one foot's over here and one foot's over there. And so being from— being Nepalese but growing up in the United States, I'm sure has impacted kind of how I see the world and—

Yeah.

How I really— I mean, I think one of the biggest things about living in America that my parents also— the reason why they came here is like the opportunity and the ability to make something out of yourself from nothing. You know, that's the American dream. And so I've always had that idea in my head that I work hard enough on something that I will thrive. And so that gives me that, you know, that hustle that I have as an— like, it's under my control, but also that South Asian side. It's like, if I thrive here, I have to give back here. Yeah, you know, and it goes back and forth.

So yeah, um, that's interesting, like, because you could say put it— put the, um, the helping others, you could put that in the, in the South Asian box, right? And, and, and, but, but having said that, like, there's so many, uh, again, the difference between the UK and the US is Philanthropy is far bigger in, in the States than it is in the, than it is in the UK, I'd say.

Oh, really? I, I didn't realize that.

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the, um, and, and religion too. Religion is bigger, you know, although we have a, you know, a leader, supposed, you know, leader of our state, um, who is a a king. And, and, uh, but you might not know this, but you know that King Charles is— his role is— one of his roles is head of state and head of the Church of England, right? So you think, well, surely, you know, with that, British people would be more religious, but they're not. They're, they're, uh, They're not at all. So, yeah, it's oversimplistic to look at these things and just put them into the different boxes. But for me, the kind of self-reliance piece is incredibly powerful and a driver for leadership, leading your cynics, you know, leading cynics, or, or, or me leading me, right? Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, we have to be self-reliant. We're not, we're not waiting for somebody else to tell us, tell us what to do, you know.

Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I Yeah, you definitely need— when I came into this role of executive director, I was, you know, thinking how I want to build my team. And yes, I think self-reliance is really important, but also, you know, there used to be a time where we used to look at hierarchy vertical, and now we look at it horizontal. And I think that's very powerful in so many ways because all the pressure doesn't need to be on one person. I can lead a team of very strong people that have the same goal and mission as I do. And so, the way that I look at leadership is very much on a horizontal platform where I'm there to guide. But all of the individuals in our organization are Brilliant, and yes, some are still learning. Others are more advanced, but they all have such great potential, and I want to really be able to help them thrive so they can then help parents thrive, and then the parents can then thrive as for the children and help them grow where they need to be. So I feel like having that perspective. is only going to help the end goal, which is the adopted children, right? But it does take a drive to be able to say, okay, let's organize and put this forward, right? And implement the plan. But I, I know that I have a strong team behind me. And so I feel like that makes it a little bit easier, if that makes sense.

Yeah. Yeah. Where do you see the— I mean, because it's a golden thread, you know, between putting the kids at the top and the kids, the parents, the professionals, and the leaders. So I see it like a golden thread. Where do you see the challenges and the obstacles along that golden thread?

I think some part of it is communication, right? As professionals, we only can— we can help the parents if the parents communicate a need, right? And so some of it is like us having policies and procedures in place that help them understand a need they may not even know they need, right? And being able to see what history and professionals that come before us have already learned and having those in place as a wraparound service for adoptive parents, right? But some of it is also making sure that we are getting feedback from adoptive parents so we know how better to help them. And I think one of the challenges that I have as a professional in my experience is it always seems to be— I don't know how to shorten the gap between a crisis happening and communication prior to the crisis so we can prevent the crisis, right? So I think that's a huge challenge is continuing to tell families that we are here for support, so you need to reach out to us anytime you have a question, a thought, something that can help you to better parent the needs of these children, right? Because I want to prevent a crisis as much as I can, and I think every professional does, right? It's never You, you don't— or you're not working your optimal self when you're working in a crisis. So, um, that proactive, uh, approach is really important. But sometimes getting the feedback from adoptive parents for multiple reasons, right? Life gets busy, stressful, you have multiple obligations, you're juggling a lot of balls. And so sometimes that doesn't come to the forefront of your mind to say, oh, let me call my social worker, ask these questions, because because I'm having an issue today. I think that's a huge thing. And then also helping parents understand that they don't have to have all the answers, right? We don't have all the answers, but we have tons of professionals that we can lean on and feeling okay to ask for help, right? I think, and I think more and more parents because of our resources to technology and just having the web to as a resource, they do have a lot of information, but synthesizing that information to understand when you need something is still a huge challenge, right? It's, it's something that I continuously think about. Can I do something proactively So it's a question that's posed to the adoptive parent so they're thinking about it before it happens.

Yeah.

Right? I mean, there's a reason why we have post-placement reports or post-adoption reports to be able to have a space to talk about what their needs are and assess those needs. And while those are important, you know, we only do post-placement, post-adoption reporting, mandatory requirement for reporting For a period of time, maximum 2, 3, 5 years, right? I want families to know that they can come back to us 10 years from now because their needs are going to be very different than when that child is 5 years old in their care, right? At 10, at 15, those needs change. I think that is a continuous journey. challenge we have, but something we continue to work on, um, to better that thread between professional, parent, child, to keep the child the top priority.

Do you think that the— because we talked about self-reliance, um, do you think the self-reliance gets in the way of parents reaching out?

Yeah, I mean, I think there is a lot of pressure in society to try to do it on your own.

Yeah.

Right? Um, especially in the United States, we're so focused on you work hard enough, it will, you know, you'll achieve it. So I think if I'm thinking about myself, you know, as a mother, I do have a lot of pressure to be self-reliant. You know, I don't want to burden my parents. I don't want to burden my community. I don't want to burden my, um, support because I should be able to do it by myself. And letting that go can be quite, quite difficult because it's kind of embedded in your mentality and your, you know, in how you are told that you should be able to do it by yourself.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and being able to break that barrier I think is really important. I think for us as professionals to let parents know that it's not a negative thing to reach out, you know, it's a, uh, it's something to show your strength.

Yeah.

You know, um, yeah.

Yeah. Although I think generally, and this is a massive opinion, right? Um, just based on all the— but based on all the conversations I've had, um, I do think, uh, British culture is, generally speaking, less self-reliant. But in the kind of adoptive parenting space, I, I don't, I don't see it makes a difference. I think our—

Hmm.

I think British parents are, um, equally reticent on occasion about getting back in touch. And it— and I think, you know, you, you talked about the, the, the time delay here. So if they, you know, if the, if the problem happens, if the, the challenges, often as they do, are happening within, um, with— in the teenage years, then they, they're thinking, well, I'm not, I'm not going to go back to an organization that helped me adopt this child 12 years ago, 13 years ago. The, the connection sometimes can have been, um, lost, you know.

Yeah, and or maybe they feel that that is not a direct impact to the adoption itself, but that's where, you know, I mean I don't want to speak for any adoptees, but I think from what I have heard, adoption is something that adoptees reflect on, or the adoption process, and/or is intertwined with their identity. And so it's something that they reflect on throughout life, right? So when an adoptive parent comes with a challenge, say in teenage years at 15, I think sometimes they push it aside and say, okay, that's because that person is a teenager, having no connection to the adoption side of things, right? And I think as professionals, what I try to tell adoptive parents is like, it may have some to do with it, it may have a lot to do with it, but the question to ask is, is there something to do with it? And how do we help You thrive and/or understand this change in your life and connection to identity, right? I, I don't want to ever say it has nothing to do with an adoption that happened 13 years ago, right? Maybe that would help them to be able to reach back out and say, what support services can I use? to help my child. I don't know, I'm just speaking out loud right now, but those are the things that, like, it's, it's complex because I, I don't know how to help them at that time. And I hope, I hope that they are more vocal to be able to tell us.

Yeah, I think we've got to— it can be a rabbit hole, the, you know, is this a human thing or is, is this— sorry, yeah, is this a teenage thing? Or is, is this an adoption thing? And that can be a rabbit hole. And speaking as a 59-year-old now, um, the people that I speak to say, well, just deal with it. Like, get, you know, let's, let's get to grips with the— let's, let's solve it. Um, we don't need to know the source to solve sort of the challenge. Now, this is— well, this, this is— this, this challenge is, is something to do with your current thinking. Hey, that, that's— it's your, it's your current thinking. Like, we talked about this earlier, this, uh, this idea that's becoming clearer and clearer to me that, uh, Trauma, trauma, you know, feelings come and go. Trauma is a, is a feeling, largely a feeling thing, right?

Yeah.

Uh, feeling, feelings come and go. So if, if it was, uh, if, if, if it was an adoption issue, then I would have always felt one, one way, but I haven't. My My feelings have been all over the place since in the last 59 years. So yeah, it's more to do with how I'm feeling, how I'm feeling now, and how I'm thinking, thinking now.

Yeah, but did that approach work for you in terms of saying, okay, put that in the past, focus on this right now?

Yes.

Okay. Yeah. All right, that's good to know.

But it's, um, uh, it, it count— it goes counter to pretty much what everybody says. So this is kind of— this is an outlier theory. But, you know, it's— but if— so I was, I was talking to an adoptive mum about this last week, and I, I was talking about our our fundamental wholeness. Um, so the— what I mean, we talked about the sky earlier on, that the sky isn't damaged by trauma's storm, right? The, the sky. And so, um, if you— that— so she said, well, this is a new thing to me, this wholeness, this idea of wholeness. I said Yes, it is, it is new. People aren't talking about this. And she said, well, um, we adopted from birth. My daughter, um, so my daughter had some, some of her trauma is to do with, uh, in her in utero experience. So I'm, I'm, I didn't pry, but you know, I'm guessing something like FASD or— Yeah. Fetal alcoholism or something of those, of that ilk, right? So what was going on in, in utero? And I said to her, well, is your daughter ever at peace? And she said yes. And I said, well, that's who she is. The trauma comes and goes. The trauma comes and goes. It comes and goes in her, but she is inherently at peace. And well, we'll see, you know, like, but if I contrast that with somebody, for example, who has is born blind, then they're always blind.

Yeah, yeah.

And, and by saying that this stuff, you know, if, if there must be another factor at play, there must be another factor at play for this, this young adoptee. She's 12 or 13. There must be another, another factor at play. Other than her in utero trauma.

Yeah, and I mean, I mean, I, I don't know in terms of what this young lady or child, uh, knows in terms of her, uh, of her adoption and the circumstances, but Some of the feelings or emotions, I can only imagine, have to also do with what she may not know, right? The unknown factors, because that can also reflect on your feeling of whole and yourself if you don't know where your biological parents, um, were at the time, or what their circumstances were, or why they made the decision. And some of these questions they may never know. But that sense of not knowing can also impact how you see yourself and therefore your identity and therefore how whole you feel, you know. So there's a lot of factors you would have to kind of—

Yeah, well, maybe, maybe that questioning is something that comes and goes, right? So She's, she's playing with her, with her friends, right? I mean, she's 12, 13, so she's— whatever she's doing, she's not playing like a 6-year-old. But she— when it's not on her mind, you know, how big is the problem? How big is a problem when you're not thinking about it?

Not at all. Yeah, yeah.

So there— so, so thought is What I'm suggesting really here is that thoughts and feelings are transitory experience, and maybe the challenge is to do with what's going on in the moment rather than just that, than something in utero trauma. Being curious about it in terms of growth, right? Yeah.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's hard to know for sure, but, you know, it, it could be some to do with adoption, it could do nothing with adoption, it could do, you know.

Yeah.

But it really, I think the focus for me with adoptive parents is to let them know that they should always save a space for that conversation, right? And And if it has nothing to do with, you know, their history, their childhood, their adoption, then you can let it go, but never assume that it doesn't.

Cool. So we're coming in on time, Jyotika. Is there anything that you'd like to share that I've not asked you about?

No, I mean, I think this question of what does thrive mean to me, I appreciate you asking because I think it only helps us as— I think for me as a professional, as a human being, to really think about, you know, what this means for the children that we serve and the families we serve. So I thank you for posing this question. I had written down all these thoughts this morning with my coffee, and I was like, wow, I don't think I've been this reflective of this word all my almost 20 years of doing work in this area. So I appreciate you bringing up this question and making us think and learn from what we do and how we can do it better. So thank you for having me.

Brilliant. You're very welcome. Thank you, listeners. Thank you, Jyotika. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.