Adoption Unfiltered

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. And today we've got a treat for you. We've, we've done a few one-handers, we've done a lot of one-handers, we've done some two-handers, we've done some three-handers. This is a four-hander. I haven't been, uh, I haven't been challenged in this way for a while, so I'm looking forward to it. Keeps me on my toes. And 401 interviews in, or something nuts like that, I need keeping on my toes. So we have a wonderful collection from all sides of the constellation here who are coming together to, or have come together to write a book called Adoption Unfiltered. So welcome to the show, Kelsey, Sarah, and Lori.

Thanks for having us.

Welcome. We're just being— sorry.

Glad to be here, Simon. Yeah, glad to be here.

Nice to be here. Nice to see you again, Simon.

Yeah, it's been ages. It's been ages. So, um, in the, uh, people will know, regular listeners know, will know that Sarah and Laurie have been on the show before, but Kelsey hasn't. I, it's the first time I've met Kelsey, but we found out we've got some very strange connections in, in, in, uh, things in connection, connections in common. Her, her son is a long-suffering Leeds fan. as am I, and also a fan of the Stone Roses, as am I. So I'm going to tell you a little bit more about the book. I'm going to read some of the blurb for the book. So the book's called Adoption Unfiltered, and it is based on dozens of interviews with dozens of adoptees, birth parents, adoptive parents, social workers, therapists, and other allies. all sharing candidly about the challenges in adoption. While finding common ground in the sometimes contentious space— yes, we know that space— adoption may seem like a lofty goal, it reveals the author's optimistic aim: working together with truth and transparency to move towards healing. So the bit that I love about that is this optimistic aim. Right? So, uh, we're, we're working, uh, we're working together. Yeah. Um, and we're working together to move towards healing. So what I'd like to do first, if I could ask you, um, maybe we'll start with, uh, uh, you, Kelsey, as I know we've not spoken that much about what, what do you— what, what does the word healing mean to you? Because we, we use all these terms. And we don't— I don't think we define them. I, I was taught that that's what you had to do at university, and I should have listened more to instructions at university because I didn't get a particularly good degree anyway, but I got one, right? But, uh, yeah, defining terms. So what, what does healing mean to you, Kelsey?

Yeah, um, I think, yeah, it could be such a broadly used word, but I, but I think being able to move through your life with, not with ease, but, um, with maybe like a general understanding and acceptance of, of some of the things that, that have affected you. And in my case, the relinquishment of my child and, um, this open adoption that I'm living in. It's healing for me is, is that acceptance and, um, Yeah.

So is it, uh, people use these words like, um, coming to terms with it, being at peace with it. Is, is that what it, what it feels like? What does it feel like, uh, kind of like more emotionally?

Um, I, I do think that like you, I, I strive to be at peace with it, but there's also another part of that where I don't feel like I ever will. be at peace with it. I think that there's, um, so I think that's where that acceptance piece comes in, because you have to accept that you'll never be whole because of it, and that, um, you know, the peace won't be, um, yeah, it's, it's not gonna be this moment of complete reconciliation with the way things have, have occurred, um, because it just doesn't, um— there, there's this space of time now, no matter what happens in the future, there's this, you know, space of time where between relinquishment and today there's memories that never were, there's, um, there's so much unknown, there's, um, separation. And so To me, like, with, with that hole in my life, there will never be, um, complete peace, but there can be, um, like a sort of peaceful acceptance of that.

So the, the thing that's coming to me is, uh, something I heard on another podcast. It wasn't an adoption one, but, um, it was like Being at peace with not being at peace.

Yeah, exactly.

Rather than fighting it.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

So it's, it's that, um, dichotomy of, of, of, of peace and non-peace and being able to, uh, you know, be okay with that complexity.

Yeah. And, and I think like some calm to just the restlessness of it as well.

So yeah, peace versus restlessness as kind of, uh, opposites or on somewhere on a spectrum. So a spectrum rather than a dichotomy, I guess. Um, what, what does it— thanks, Kelsey. What, what does it mean to, to you, Sarah? What does healing mean to you?

Well, there's healing on a couple of levels that we try to address in the book, and there's the individual healing And then the healing of the adoption space, you know, and how adoption is done on a systemic level. And then just our community too, how we engage with each other. So I think there's a few kinds of healing that I see on an individual level. I, I would agree with everything Kelsey just said, and I really worked in my chapters of Adoption Unfiltered to talk a lot about how acknowledgement and grief is— and grieving and feeling our losses is the first step toward healing. So my work is heavily influenced by Dr. Gordon Neufeld of the Neufeld Institute. He's a renowned child developmentalist and attachment researcher— or excuse me, psychotherapist. And Um, I have illustrated in the book, um, the frustration traffic circle. Um, and we have a lot to be frustrated about as adoptees. And what happens is if we don't— there's kind of a— what he describes as a traffic circle. And I illustrated this in the book, but there's a traffic circle. And when you're— you kind of enter the circle and it's frustration spinning around, and you've got 3 potential exits. You've got— you can change things. Um, and this is easier.

This is easier for in the UK because you can imagine a roundabout. I think you don't have roundabouts.

Exactly. You know what, we have some roundabouts in Cape Harbor near, near me, and I was lost, Simon. It was so confusing. They're so hard. Um, but yes, so you go over through the roundabout, and if you can change circumstances, you're pretty good. But if you can't change, and with adoption, like Kelsey was saying, there's It's permanent for those who've placed. It's permanent for those who are living it, adoptees. And it's permanent for those who have adopted, ideally. I know there are some circumstances where that doesn't happen, and that's heartbreaking, but it's permanent. And so then your other option, if you can't make changes, is adapting. And you adapt through feeling the sadness of your losses and grieving those. And that's what builds resiliency. Another route out the roundabout, though, because a lot of times that grief is just so massive and it feels like it's ongoing and it kind of is. There are always things to grieve as you age and progress through your journey. So then the other option is attack. And we all know we've been there. You know, I get there daily. This is, you know, this is not a one-time and done thing. But then the attack, if you can't change and you're spinning in frustration and you're not making the space to adapt for whatever reason, it's too daunting or you don't have time. Then the attacking energy comes out. So I really love that model because it rings very true for me. I was, in terms of adoption on a personal level, I was afraid of looking too closely for decades. Um, and it was keeping me from adapting. So, um, you know, on a personal level, that's how I would describe healing.

Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more what you say about looking too closely? you were afraid of looking too closely. What do you mean?

Well, what I mean by that is, you know, I used to parrot my parents, my adoptive parents' adoption stories that were of course centering them and very joyous, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful stories. However, it didn't make space for the harder parts of adoption. The things that, the ways I felt different from my family when I grew up and I didn't have an opportunity to to express that. There was no room for that. There was, um, you know, we would walk up to people and they would say how wonderful, it's such a— so beautiful that you're adopted. And yes, it can be beautiful, but what about all the parts that are really hard? Wondering if your first mother thinks of you and remembers you, and wondering, scanning every single room you go in, wondering if you see her. Um, those are really hard parts of adoption. We I didn't feel invited in her presence.

Yeah.

Um, whether or not, you know, I found out later she had wanted me. So I was, I was very fortunate there. And I think that, um, on a, on a level, everyone is wanted, but you don't know that when you're younger, when you're growing up. And so it's that fear of going there and even saying that out loud is terrifying. Um, I knew I had to look at it at some point, but I, I was kind of putting it off because it's like, you know, it was easier just to tell everybody, oh, I'm fine. Adoption didn't affect me.

I'm fine.

I'm good.

So in that family setting, it's about an unspoken conflict between— about around the feelings around adoption.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And kind of squeezing out anything that's difficult. Yeah.

I like the way that you look at the healing on the different levels. So, you know, the person— I guess we've got the personal, we've got the family, we've got the intergroup, and we've got the societal. I used to, on my blurb, I used to say that I was an advocate, and then I've taken that off because I've figured that my best place isn't— that's not the place that pays best to my skills. I'm focusing in on the personal stuff and mining the insights of the guests, as in a polite way of putting it, showcasing their learnings to hold those up to the listeners' ears and say, is there anything that you can take from the guest's experience? So I've taken the advocate off. So I don't play that big game. Anymore. People, people, and I never did, but I thought it was, it wasn't actually being truthful by saying that anyway. Um, so thank you a lot. Thanks a lot, Sarah. Um, so, uh, Laurie, what does healing mean to, to you?

I just think it's so brilliant that you asked, that you started with that question, Simon, because it really is at the heart of what we're trying to do with Adoption Unfiltered. And I'm going to build on something Sarah said. I think You can't heal until you acknowledge the wound, that there is a wound. And so often in adoption, we try to deny that there is a wound. You had mentioned fighting to heal, but— or not fighting it. When Kelsey was talking, you mentioned not fighting it, but I also see not denying it. So accepting that there is a wound, not just acknowledging it, but accepting it. I call it dealing with what is in adoption. And I think adoptive parents have a big role to play in this because if our need is to not see our child suffer, and our child's need is to have their suffering acknowledged so that they can begin to heal, then we are not able to serve them through our denial. Through our inability to accept the fact that there is a separation trauma, there is a wound there. But we don't have to stay there. As long as we can see it for what it is, deal with what is, I think we can find some healing. And that is, I mean, that's a pretty individual path, I think. But for me, it's much of what Kelsey was saying.

Yeah.

dropping the resistance to those feelings, coming to some sort of acceptance of what is, and allowing the others in our orbit to do the same, giving the space for that.

Yeah, orbit, that's a good word for this. I guess if we're talking constellation, then orbit kind of fits with it, doesn't it? I love that. One of the things that pops into my head is this So me and my wife haven't got any kids, uh, and but I, uh, especially at the weekend, I see a lot of the, the, the, the main bit of parent-kid interaction I see is at the swimming pool, right? And, uh, it is, uh, the dad, because I'm going into the blokes' changing room, right? Um, and, and the dads have got their kids with them and The, there's the logistical hurdles are going on, right, of telling the kids, micromanaging the kids basically about putting their socks on and all this sort of stuff. And then every now and again a child is upset. You hear it, you hear it, you hear a child scream, creating merry hell in one of the cubicles because something's gone wrong. You know, they've their socks got wet, or, or, you know, they've got shampoo in their eyes. Something's going, something's going wrong. And, uh, and, and I— so the kid's having a complete meltdown, and, and the dad, uh, is trying very hard not to lose his cool, um, and logic the kid out of their emotions, right? Uh, or that you hear them trying to soothe the kid out of their emotions. But there is— there's something within all these parents going on with these— within these dads that is— their emotion is at odds with their kid's emotion. You know, and they're trying to— often they're trying to smooth stuff over. So it seems to me, from a, like, a third-hand view, a third-hand perspective, is that there, there is a, there is often a fundamental mismatch between, between the emotions and, and the— and I don't know whether, I don't know whether sooner or later I'll get to a question on this, but, um, I, I feel what, what I feel really, I feel that the kids' emotions have been invalidated. That's kind of what I feel now. Is that because, you know, I felt my emotions were invalidated? Does a— and, and this breeds kind of, um, it— for me, it's kind of building a wall between parent and child because we're We're trying to soothe them at a time when they're being dysregulated, whatever. And I don't know if anybody can— I'm making a general statement and I'm waffling on a bit here. Anybody want to chime in on that?

Sarah? I would love to chime in on that. So I feel you. I've got teenagers, so we're going through that all over again. And Kelsey's at that stage with her little one. I feel like we're in the same boat. It's just different things we're tantruming about. But I love the Neufeld Institute. It's been really helpful to me in my parenting. And then there's a way— I came to the Neufeld Institute. I found it. It's an attachment-based developmental model for raising children, and the focus is on raising children. I became a course facilitator in the Making Sense of Preschoolers course. And one of my colleagues at the Neufeld Institute, Dr. Deborah McNamara, has a book called Making Sense of Preschoolers. I'm putting my hand up here.

Listen.

I know. Me too. Me too. We all, we all go there sometimes. Um, but what I really love about it is that it is— it, it offers a different way of seeing situations, seeing what's going on underneath. And then when you see differently, um, you respond differently. So, um, when you're your best self— and nobody's a perfect parent all the time, I'm gonna raise my hand right now. But those situations at the swimming pool that you're seeing and feeling, what's needed is to come alongside those emotions in those moments when it's feasible, and to support a child who needs to feel the futility. And that is kind of what I'm talking about with adaptation. And we start young. I mean, they have— little toddlers have a lot to be to adapt to. They have a lot of things that don't go their way. And so it's coming alongside. And I know, honey, I know it's not working for you and it's really hard. And I think what you would— the reason you probably notice it is because it's— I don't know, for me, when I notice it is because I didn't get that. That's not how I was raised. And it's hard to— you have to kind of reparent yourself as you're parenting your children of, oh, I wish it had been done this way. But that is what leads to adaptation. I will just say as a parent, it's really hard to see our kids suffer. It's hard. And sometimes you don't always have time to walk them through this, like all the life's futilities they're going to encounter when they're toddlers or teenagers and they are in that spinning in that frustration circle all the time. So it's a challenge. But I think that is ultimately the goal. There's also a really great picture book that comes to mind, The Chocolate-Covered Cookie Tantrum. Um, that I think I'm a big proponent of children's books for all ages. And that book is such a good one of modeling how to lead a child through really big feelings, um, and get to the other side and, and get to that softness that comes once the mad drains to sad.

Yeah. I, I think I figured out why I, I asked that question now. Um, it was a— so I swim a lot now and I, and my dad was a swimmer and, and he got me swimming early and I was in the school team, blah, blah, blah. And I remember I was doing the last leg of a relay race in the swimming pool, like when I was about 10, 12, something like that. And it was a close-run thing. And I managed to win. I managed to bring our team in home. And I kind of put— I waved my fist in the air at victory. And maybe I'd just seen it on the telly or something like that. But there was— it wasn't like— it wasn't like you see this in, especially in football. We were talking about Leeds United earlier on. There's this— there's a grimness in people winning, scoring a goal, and it's a really angry kind of— it's an angry kind of joy, it seems to me. But I wasn't full of that. That's not where I was full. I was just pleased that we'd won, right? And my dad said, um, don't do that. I, you know, it just cut, cut me down. And I remember feeling absolutely devastated because I don't know, I can't remember exactly what he said, but I remember how I felt. And I felt, I felt it, you know, like, uh, I, I felt really invalidated in that. And I'm just, and I'm saying the, and I'm asking the question and I'm saying mainly because we've got an adoptee audience. I'm saying it really, I think, because it— this stuff isn't necessarily about them being adoptive parents. It's about them being parents. And parents have a— any parent seeing their child upset is trying to change that upset. They're not trying to invalidate us. My dad was trying to give me a lesson, and he was doing the best that he could. Because I could see how if I'd had a string of those things going on for me, I could see how that resentment would have built towards my father. So I think that's maybe how I answered the question, and it kind of makes sense to me. Uh, do you— does anybody want to come back on that, or I've got another question if we, if we'd rather move on? Okay, we'll move on. Um, so the, uh, the, the subtitle of the book is Revelations from Adoptees, Birth Parents, Adoptive Parents, and Allies. So the, the next question I came up with was What, what role do— uh, what role have revelations helped you heal? So maybe we could go the same order again, start with, with Kelsey. Does that make sense, Kelsey?

Sure. Um, I think, well, I think like for me, like the revelations have been just kind of stepping up on the rung of the ladder of my understanding of the experience. So I think, um, it— what you have— and I, and I've also been an adoption professional, so I've, I've walked through this process with other people. And I, um, I always like to say that, like, we got to get you through kindergarten first, which I know that Brits don't say kindergarten, but, um, we got to get you through nursery. To get you on to the next level of understanding. And so those revelations are important. There's really simple revelations that you start with. Um, and one of those things is that, that loss and trauma is inherent in adoption and separation. And so once we get through that, I think, um, the— we have the potential for our whole world to open up. to understanding adoption on a deeper level. And so, and the ways in which it has affected us and the ways in which we react to, to those effects and the way we behave. And so I think those revelations guide us into being better for our, our entire constellation, whether it's my child, my child's adoptive parents, and then, you know, vice versa.

So yeah, so it's, it's revelations on the way to understanding, and it, and it's, and it's a, it's an understanding curve like a learning curve or a healing curve.

Yep, for sure. I've—

has anybody seen this term, heard this term before, healing curve? Because I don't know whether I've made it up or just nicked it off somebody else and forgotten that I'd nicked it.

I don't know.

Sounds cool though, doesn't it? A healing curve. So yeah, it's a journey, as they say. I guess the whole thing is it's a better cliché. It's not a cliché, is it? Hey, we don't hear the word that much, you know, but when we say journey, we think too much about trashy television, you know, stories. Anyway, so Sarah, what have been your Personal relevate— relevations? Revelations, um, that are on your healing curve?

They just— in, in terms of the book, um, the big revelation is just how rewarding it is to work across the constellation and work with others. Um, You know, there's the— there's a lot of personal healing that happens in this configuration, um, when it's not personal, when we're not in our own personal constellations, but we're in a constellation where you see a birth mom such as Kelsey looking really closely and examining her losses and talking about it and wanting to do right by her child. And I see the same thing with Lori as an adoptive parent. Um, of really listening to adoptees and, um, taking the information in and distilling it. And I see how she takes that out in the world. And, and then we're using— we're kind of— so there's the, there's the personal kind of fruits of that, that, you know, at first I described. There's, there's a little kind of low hum of, of sadness too, but overall it's really healing to, you know, it's, it's not personal, but there are ways that it heals and it gives hope. And then On a, on a broader level, I think, um, a revelation that's really important that I learned and that I think is important for everyone is just to see how we all hurt in our different ways of adoption. And again, it just isn't widely acknowledged in that broader— I know it is within our spaces in the adoptee community for sure, but out in the broader, the broader, broader world, it still isn't widely acknowledged. Um, and I think that does a disservice to all of us, like we talked about. And so I think that's the big revelation that came through the book is seeing each other, seeing, seeing each other's humanity and seeing how did we get here individually and collectively?

Yeah. Can I— should I thought about asking this to Kelsey, but then the, the something else came popped into my head. But can you give us I'm a practical kind of give me an example guy. I want the case study. I want the practice rather than the theory. I'm wondering if there is anything particularly you can pick out either from the book process or beforehand in terms of a revelation that's really moved the healing needle for you.

This is for me?

Sorry, no, that was for Sarah.

No, for Sarah.

Okay. If you've got one, Kelsey, that'd be great. No, nothing going. Sarah?

Okay, I have one that we shared. We've talked about a little bit, and it's kind of a little one, but I think just to get a sense of how these kinds of things play out, it's a fun story. We were working on a presentation a few weeks ago, and we were collaborating on Google, on Google Slides this time. We do a lot of collaborating in Google. And we were— the presentation was really like, I think, the next day. And so we were all in there in the notes typing frantically, and I typed something on one line, and right below me, at the same time as me, Lori was typing almost the same thing, but like it was right below. And I, I got activated. And I didn't really understand at the moment, but I, we, you know, I tried to be my best adult self. I said, I've got to go. And then I thought about it and I realized, oh my gosh, I was feeling like the adoptive parent in the room was speaking over me. And so one, that I could— I wouldn't have had that, you know, we were working together. And so that wouldn't have come up had we not been working together. And two, we've got 3 years of a relationship banked. And lots of, lots of, you know, reviewing people, each other's words and all this time. So there's a lot of trust. There's a foundation of trust. So I trusted Laurie to say, hey, this is what happened. And I don't think that that working is going to— that's not going to work for me going forward just because that, that was hard. And I told her why. And she didn't act in the kind of some of the stereotypical ways you would, you might expect. There was no fragility. There was no defensiveness. It was like, Oh wow, you know, and then we— it was out in the open. So you're taking all the— there was no shame, there was no pain, there was no arguing, there was no hurt feelings. I don't think, Lori, mine weren't. I hope yours weren't. And so it's— there was growth. It was, it was a really— like, I, I loved that moment. It was a big growth opportunity to— and again, we're not— we don't have years of backstory to be mad at each other and to, you know, to carry through because it's not our own constellation. So it was a really kind of fun example I'd like to give.

That's cool. Yeah. I think what you're alluding to is a gap, like a higher-level perspective, a degree of separation, a degree of— before you get into the example, I mean, like, there's not so much skin in the game. You're not as emotionally charged. you've got more distance, you've had more distance from the story, and that's brought you more about a clearer perspective perhaps.

Yeah, one step removed. We're removed from our own personal dynamics. So I agree with— I like how you described that.

Yeah.

So Laurie, What— I've said it again now— what revelations, what revelations have been key for you in your healing?

Yeah, I'm so glad that you're focusing on the healing aspect of this. And let me just point out that with the story that Sarah just told, being activated and being triggered was the catalyst for the healing moment. And so sometimes we really think that being triggered and being activated is a bad thing when really It is kind of the path towards that insight that can come and then neutralize that point that got activated. So I just— there have been so many moments of the 3 of us doing that. For the book, we really tried to tell a lot of stories. We interviewed 50 people to really round out the diversity of experiences within adoption. And what we were looking for there is not individual stories as much— it was individual stories and it was also the themes, the underlying themes. I think the human brain is a pattern-seeking thing and so we're helping to bring those patterns forth. And so when Sarah brought forward 23 stories from different adoptees, I as an adoptive parent can see, oh, Now I see what was going on for my child when blah blah blah. And when Kelsey interviewed 18, brought 18 stories forward, I can better understand some of the things that were going on in my personal world. I interviewed 9 adoptive parents and allies to bring their themes through. Insecurity that adoptive parents sometimes feel. The fear of not being real enough, unacknowledged grief that can kind of color and interfere with our ability to be that present with our children in their suffering, like you were talking about at the swimming pool, just wanting to make them feel better right away without being present with them. So I think for me, it's the patterns that are the revelations. that come from reading the book, um, that you, you see that all these things make sense if you connect the dots.

Yeah, yeah. Um, well, it— the, the reason I'm focusing on the healing is because of that pattern thing that you're talking about. I, I want the pattern to be a healing pattern. I'm trying to, I'm trying to create a, a podcast, an episode, and a series that is about healing, uh, so that hopefully we can take some bits, take some healing insights that will help us along that, that healing curve. And, uh, one of the things that, you know, reading about the book, you, you're obviously writing it for everybody, and yet the, the, the The, uh, I think the primary audience is adoptees, right? Is that— am I right in thinking that? No, no, sorry.

No, it— but it's a really good question, and it's a question we had to ask ourselves a lot as we were going through of who is this book for, who is this book for. We were wondering, is it for adoptive parents, or is it for birth parents, is it for adoptees? answer is yes, it's for everybody. And so the book is broken into 4 sections. We have, um, playing off the title of the book Adoption Unfiltered, we have Adoptees Unfiltered, Birth Parents Unfiltered, Adoptive Parents Unfiltered, and then the fourth, fourth, fourth section is on healing and hope. And in each of those sections, what we were really each trying to do that we Sometimes when you're writing, you don't know till after you've written it what you're trying to do. But what we were trying to do is explain ourselves to ourselves, but then also explain ourselves to the other 2 groups and the wider group of anyone in the constellation outside of this core triad who's living it, but also teachers and— adoption professionals, anyone. But for me, I will just go to the adoptee section. Um, I, I really have a, um, just a strong passion for helping explain adoptees to other people because we're so often misunderstood. I think our behaviors get misread all the time, they get misdiagnosed all the time, and we get pathologized. And I just when you look at human attachment dynamics and how humans are wired, it all makes sense how we respond in separation. And so I, I set out to do that, to explain us to ourselves too. I grew up for so many decades feeling like something was deeply wrong with me and I was crazy because of all these things I didn't understand. And these were just human dynamics of what you do when you're faced with separation. And there's a lot of separation we face. So for me, that was really important. And I know it was for my co-authors as well. So, um, I don't know, Lori and Kelsey, if you want to jump in and just add your parts to that too.

No.

Okay.

Um, the, the, the, uh, the healing theme is, uh, you know, a theme that I'm trying to focus— I'm not trying to focus on, I am focusing on. And on— we In the adoptee land, in adoptee land, we've got this, uh, you see it all the time, there's this identity, the complexity and lack of clarity about identity that, that seems, you know, like, so, um, it, it's as simple as, uh, am I Simon Jonathan Benn or am I David Anthony Flower?

Right.

Because that was the name that my birth mother gave me. So when did I change? When did I become Simon? 5 weeks old? Or did I, you know, when was that? Um, and that, for me, that identity thing and the healing thing are kind of interlinked. And I know from previous conversations with you, Laurie, and you, Sarah, that you both, you're keen on that Um, as, as well as you take a holistic view, right? So it, it's, it's about the psychology, but it's also about the spirituality, right? So I think, uh, the interview that, uh, that we, that we did together there, I think we came up with the title Spiritual Epiphanies, or I spotted that something in one of your books and that was the thing. So if, if we look at this, the, the seems— I, I mentioned earlier on that when talking to Calti, there's a, you know, the dichotomy of, um, of, of peace and, uh, and, and what, peace and war? I accept it being, being peaceful, accepting the lack of peace, being peaceful about the lack of peace, those sorts of things. This dichotomy, it seems to me that on— if we look at it from a— if we look at it from a life of everybody, not just the— not just adoptees, not just birth mothers, not just adoptive parents, but human beings. On, on one level, on a spiritual level, some would say that we are always— are always and already whole, right? And yet we're healing. So spiritually, we are unwounded and untouched, untraumatized. And psychologically, we are traumatized, we are wounded. So if we're— what I'm drawing to here is a separate— I'm distinguishing between spiritual identity or spirit, uh, and psychological identity. Does that make any sense? Because it makes perfect sense to me. I wondered, I'm waffling on a bit there, the dichotomy of it.

I think you and I talked about this, Simon, on our, um, our first conversation, um, of Healing and wholeness, which I think have their roots in the same Latin words. And, you know, this ties in with my yoga practice of bringing together the left and the right and the upper and the lower and the inner and the outer and the inhale and the exhale and all of that, all the opposites, the dichotomy that you're mentioning. And I do— I think there is a lot about the spiritual And psychological thing to bring them together. I like to use, when I talk with adoptive parent groups, I use the image of the Tao to show the yin and the yang, you know, the 2 opposites. And then when you bring them together, it's called the Tao and it's the whole thing. And so I think this is a human quest. You know, adoption certainly adds another layer for all of us, but it's a human quest to— become whole, to accept all of our parts, accept all of our history, accept all of the things that happen to us, um, even the ones that we want to push away. So I think a lot of healing comes from stopping the pushing away.

Yeah, yeah. So there's that, there's that quote that we are not human beings having a spiritual experience, we're spiritual beings. having a human experience. So, uh, as I, I see that the, the, the trauma in the human experience and a spiritual being as the essence of who we are, that identity of, of who we are.

I see— I don't see it as one or the other. I see it as both.

Okay.

Could you—

We are spiritual beings and we are human beings and we are having all of the experiences. But I think if you start out with the premise that we're spiritual beings having a human experience, then that discounts, that breaks it, that divides it. I think we're both.

Okay. It's just what the guy The guy said, and it rings.

And I really bought into it too. But then to me, it looks like a dichotomy. As my own spiritual evolving happens, it's another, is it this or this? And yes, the answer is yes, it is these both things.

Yeah. Yeah. Kelsey, does it— does this mean anything to you? What do we have?

I, I mean, I think that I have a very different brain wiring than Sarah and Lori, and so I don't, um, I don't know. I don't know if it— not that it doesn't make sense, but maybe I just don't Um, think in those terms, if that makes sense. Yeah, I was born to an accountant, so if that tells you anything, that sometimes my brain just doesn't really go to those corners, really.

Yeah, Sarah, uh, when you've been, uh, studying the, uh, the— with Mr. or Professor Neufeld, Have you looked at this kind of left brain, right brain, um, the distinguishing factors between left and right brain stuff? Because the accountancy stuff that Kelsey's talking about is kind of left brain-led kind of logic.

Um, no, not necessarily. There's no left brain, right brain. But the big thing with, um, That, that is presented in a lot of the Newfield Institute courses is about soft-heartedness and finding your— keeping hearts soft and finding your soft heart. Kelsey has a very soft heart, so I wouldn't say that— that's— I'm not, I'm not equating that to left brain, right brain. But that is the focus of the Newfield Institute is on soft hearts. And I will say For me, I didn't. There is on one level I will say I've always been a very empathic, very sensitive person from a young age, and I do think a lot of that is because of adoption, and I think that's a good thing. But I also had a lot of ways where I was really defended from soft-heartedness. It was too vulnerable, and so for me, there were there those things go hand in hand with the this. discomfort in the spiritual realm as well. Um, and it was a— it was an evolution.

There was—

it, it went along with my kind of the longer arc of just who I am as a person aging and, um, where I'm at in my life and looking at adoption and the adoption journey, journey and the identity work and all of those things just, um, really went hand in hand. But I definitely was on a flight from tears for much of my life. Um, And, and, and, you know, and I still get that way. It doesn't mean I just cry all the time. But I was on a flight from kind of the deeper soft feelings. And I think that that's what— how I would describe it. It's not necessarily left brain, right brain, but just all tying into vulnerability and feeling safe enough to feel vulnerable feelings.

Yeah. Yeah, because we use these different things like heads, hearts, brains, minds, tune it. Like, it, it's, it, it's all, it's all part of the, it's all part of the, uh, complexity stuff. I've, I've been, I've been listening to a lot of neuroscientists' stuff recently. They've made it simple enough to me understand, you know, I'm not reading technical stuff for neuro, uh, neuro experts or anything like that. But it's bringing out some interesting things for me. Somebody said earlier on about meaning-making machines. Was that you, Laurie? I think that was it.

Yeah, I said pattern-making, but also meaning-making.

Yeah, thank you. And that's a kind of a left brain thing, pattern-making. And the, the, the inner critic is actually a part— it has— there is a part in the left brain that is the source of the inner critic, uh, and it's also our source of language as well. Uh, and when we talk about, uh, pre-verbal trauma, you, you, you can't, um, you People talk about relinquishment leading to pre-verbal trauma. Well, talk therapy is about verbiage, isn't it? So it's— there's a fundamental challenge there. There's a fundamental challenge there. And that's why some of the, the whole, whole body stuff that people would be talking about and the creative stuff that others are talking about, that is a right-brain thing. It's all about the spaciousness. So that's why, that's why it's kind of top of my mind at the moment. So I'm just wondering where we go, where we go next from this. We've got, we've got somebody Zoom bombing the conference. on Kelsey's lap at the moment. And Laura's saying hi. That doesn't work really on a podcast, does it, listeners? You know, you're talking about doing a commentary on the video. What have been the surprises that have come out of the process for you? of this, the stuff that you really weren't expecting? Maybe we start with you, Laurie, on this.

Oh, I could ask.

Okay, go for it, Kelsey.

I was— my brain was trained into our sequence. Okay, you were seeing a pattern. Sorry. Yeah, I think that the best things For me, came out of following each other's processes. And so Sarah did just a ton of research for her section. It's very academic, but also not so academic that it's dry. It's just full of information that I think people really need to have in their hands. And so being able to like bear witness to Sarah's process and learn about, um, the effects of separation and, um, and also like tips for, for hope and healing for adoptees when I'm so early in my process. I'm in an open adoption right now and, um, this is, you know, only a— it's been 7 years, so I'm still very fresh in this process. But to have that information Um, at age 7 as opposed to 40 and beyond, I think is huge. And one of my biggest goals is to get this in the hands of people who have not yet adopted and professionals who are guiding people through the process. Um, because I feel like to have this information, to have this book in their hands is informed consent, is knowing what you're getting into. We don't want parents taking home, you know, our children, birth moms, our children, um, being ill-informed and ill-prepared to parent an adopted child. And so the, the biggest surprise for me was all of the information that Sarah was collecting, um, and just being able to have that is, is going to be really impactful.

Yeah, so I'm going to follow the pattern now. Um, Sarah, what was your biggest surprise?

Um, I think it goes hand in hand with the, the revelations that I shared earlier, just about, um, you know, how, how we're all hurting in different ways. You know, I think, um, I I've really learned a lot from both of my colleagues here in just seeing, like I said, at the risk of being repetitive, just seeing their humanity and seeing their perspective, their full perspective. You know, we really tried to take down the filters, and we didn't take all the filters off because that's not realistic. We don't walk around naked, and there's power dynamics at play, and we learned that sometimes filters are needed, especially when those in power are speaking. And, um, but when the filters come down and when you, when you see what you don't normally have access to, um, when you, when you hear how birth parents experience adoption from all, all the way through, um, you see another side and you see the, you see the human and then you You can, you can— everybody's different, every story is different, but you can still place dynamics into your own constellation and have greater understanding and greater forgiveness. And for me, forgiveness has been a huge part of my, of my growth and my, my journey as well, and ongoing. Um, there are always new ways to forgive, but, um, but it does— it leads to that. It helps, it helps to To point the way.

Yeah. One of the things that struck me as you were talking about your example when you were collaborating on the Google Sheet was that, and you had that reaction to it, it struck me as a great little micro example of a macro thing, you know, that we can we can learn somehow. It's easier to learn in bite-sized pieces. You know, the BBC had a website back in the '90s, right? And it was called— it was a revision website for kids who were revising for exams at 16 here in the UK. The exams that every kid in England takes, like 600,000 kids take these GCSE exams, right? And it's called Bite Size and it broke down the the stuff that was in the textbooks into individual screens. And there's something a lot more— it's easier to digest a bite-sized piece, you know. So people say, how do you— there's a joke, there's a joke in there, how do you eat an elephant? Bit by bit or something like that. Um, you know, it's a bite-sized thing and it's easy to spot, it's easy to kind of spot those things in the moment. and they're not quite as, um, yeah, not quite as overbearing. They're not, you know, the big, the, the big stuff. So if we can, if we can see, if we can look at the healing curve as a series of, series of, of incremental steps rather than lots of these kind of Charlton Heston, um, epiphany moments like in the religious films of the '70s, you know, El Cid and all those. It makes it kind of more doable, doesn't it, in the smaller bits? And we can celebrate those little wins.

Simon, I really like what you're saying. And I also want to add to that, that adoption, there's so many losses that are so significant and big. And We can't just sit down and decide we're going to grieve it all, you know. It needs to be bite-sized, like you say. And sometimes it doesn't need to be conscious. Like, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be specific, just feeling sad. For instance, I watch a lot of sad TV shows and sad movies with my children. And I do it because you don't have to touch on the direct losses to get drained. You just have to feel sadness. So, and when I'm— when I can tell that I'm in that attack zone, when my attacking energy is coming out, I'll put on something sappy and sad. And because it just— it doesn't have to be direct. I don't have to grieve every direct thing that, that happened to me. You just bite-sized on, and you can just access your sad feelings and get to your soft heart. And, um, and so I wholeheartedly agree with what you were saying on the bite-sized. And I also just want to add that you don't—

it—

you can't really set out to grieve adoption. It's too big. There's too much. But feeling sadness when it arises. And, and just, um, you know, for parents listening, any adoptive parents listening, um, you can't say to your child, you're sad about adoption, you're gonna grieve adoption. You just make space for sad feelings.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just thinking of the So it's coming up for Christmas about whatever it is, 7 weeks away. And my wife and I often, well, we always watch the, one of the Christmas movies. It's got Hugh Grant in it. What's it called?

Love Actually.

Love Actually. Yeah, Love Actually. And one of the guys is, one of the characters, his wife Emma Thompson, is a Joni Mitchell fan. And I'd never heard of Joni Mitchell because it's kind of before my time. But I was going to say, you know, you can feel the sadness, but yeah, go for a movie, not Joni Mitchell. Or maybe can you— do you go for Joni Mitchell or something a bit more up to date?

I have Joni Mitchell on my wall right here.

Joni Mitchell on the wall. Okay.

Do you know that she's a birth mom?

No.

She is.

There you are.

There you go.

There's some subconscious, uh, relevance there. You were thinking, what the hell is Simon going on about? But, uh, Kelsey's created a little pattern there. Yeah, I didn't know about that. She's also got talking heads. Did you know that David Byrne is Scottish?

I did.

You did? Okay. I found out yesterday.

Yeah.

You stumbled onto something else, Simon, too, is that music is another way to help us feel that sadness.

Yeah. Um, I, I've been, uh, I've been having a break from podcasts on my dog walking, and I've been listening— well, not, uh, like heavy stuff, neuroscience podcasts and trauma podcast, and I've been listening to the, um, the, the BBC series called, um, Desert Island Discs. So people come on, they, they tell this basically the story of their life and the soundtrack to their life, often with through 8 records. And, uh, last I was listening to, uh, Nile Rodgers, and, and he picked— I, I love, I love Nile Rodgers— he picked 3 of his own songs to play, right? So he's making money off the rights by getting the BBC to play his songs for the soundtrack of his life, which I thought was pretty cool. Um, but, uh, they put on— they put on We Are Family. They put on We Are Family. And, uh, I, I'd seen— I've just started doing some therapies, just some work with the therapy therapist to, to explore pre-verbal trauma. And I just found myself crying at We Are Family. So we need to bring this into a close. Has anybody got any closing comments or anything like that they'd like to share, or shall we wrap it up?

Simon, if I could just answer your last question on a surprise real briefly. One of my biggest ahas After connecting all the dots and looking back at our canvas of the book as a whole, what surprised me is how badly we got adoption in the 20th century, how much extra separation and disconnection we built into the way we practiced adoption, how little we were preparing people to look at Adoption. It was all based on the blank slate theory, right? That there would be no pre-verbal trauma because it was pre-verbal. So I think that was one of my big surprises is how badly we got it in the 20th century and also how much of the 20th century adoption practices still linger today even while we have this thing called open adoption. There's still a lot of opacity in how we are doing, how we are treating adoption. Um, at the micro level in our homes and at the macro level in our societies.

Yeah, I guess that's why I'm doing what I'm doing. I find a lot of people come to the podcast, a lot of people on the podcast are, uh, in their, in their 50s, right? It seems to be a bit of a thing. It's often people that were born the same year as me, '67, or just the year before, just the year after. Um, we're dealing with this Uh, we're dealing with this aftermath, and, and hopefully by interviewing guests on, on their healing, we're creating that healing pattern, um, to, to put stuff right. And, and others will try and change the system, um, and, and because that's for the, for the better. Yeah. Well, thank you very much, and, and, and, um, I, I think it's great what you're doing. As you said, in the— as I saw the, the blurb as it was being created, you know, to bring all sides of the constellation together to do a collaborative on a book, I think it's, uh, amazing. And, and hopefully that the, the, the, the social workers, the powers that be, the politicians, people outside of the constellation will take it seriously because it is this balanced balanced view created out from, from 3 different, um, 3 different perspectives, not just in terms of 3 different authors, but 3 different authors and all the interview— all the people that you've interviewed to bring the themes together. So I wish you all the best with that.

Thank you, Simon. Thanks for interviewing all 3 of us and having 4 of us together. I know that makes Harder for you as an interviewer.

So we appreciate it.

Yeah, that's cool. Thank you very much. And thank you to listeners. As always, I put loads of links in the, in the show notes so you can find out more about the book and find out more about the guests and all the best.

Thanks for your great questions.

Bye-bye.