At Home With Jo North

Hello everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. So today I'm delighted to be joined by Jo, Dr. Jo North. Looking forward to our conversation again, the second chat on, um, and thank you for making time for us today.

Oh, it's lovely to talk to you again, Simon. I've been listening to your podcast since the last one we did, and it's, um, it's just great to hear all the conversations that you have about All the different ways that people experience adoption.

Yeah. Yeah, well, we've all got a different experience.

Yeah.

So this is real life, right? This is real life, listeners. Um, we just had a little break there. So, um, yeah, the conversations, the, the experience is different for, for, for all of us. And, and also our view of healing, right? Our definition of healing, uh, is, is different for all of us. So I'm fascinated by the variety of, of different ways that people see healing. So what does healing mean to you, Jo?

Yeah, I mean, I, I think that, that you started the conversation off In that it means different things to different people. I don't, I don't think there has to be one particular set, set definition. But on, on, since I'm in the business of trying to help people heal, um, what, what it means to, for me is to see people that they feel able to get on with their lives, that they feel they can manage. themselves and their emotions, that they don't feel that they're collapsing under the weight of lots of rumination and intrusive thinking. Um, and I mean, I, I don't think healing's necessarily about, about hitting the highs of happiness. I think that's probably a misconception. I, you know, I think what is a, is a great state is a sense of acceptance. of our lives just as, just as they have come to us, a sense of, of acceptance of our story and an understanding, um, that gives us peace of mind and gives us more hope to carry on in a very complex world anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah, that, that will do for me. If I see— I, I just love to see a client who's themselves, oh, I can just do this a tiny bit better this week. And, you know, I feel a bit stronger. And I, I tried something new, and I feel a bit more open to life and experience. I don't feel trapped in my head. And I don't feel react— I don't feel so reactive. And I feel like I'm living by my values. Living by my values and what matters to me would be great to see that happening for people.

Yeah, and that's quite broad-ranging. Yeah. Um, so, uh, is there anything that feels— because you, you've talked about kind of practical stuff, uh, forward-facing stuff, you talked about emotions, you've talked about thoughts, you talked about peace of mind. And a quote from one of my mentors came to mind because she talks about happiness as well. And he used to say, or he does say, happiness and sadness are merely the high and low tides of a big sea called contentment. Uh, so that's a guy called Richard, uh, Richard Wilkins, and he's— he calls himself the Ministry of Inspiration, and yet he's talking about contentment rather than the, the, the highs and lows. Is there anything in particular, you know, that, that given that broad range that you've talked about, is there anything that really hones it in For you, or do you see it that way?

Yeah, yeah. And I think I'm always sort of with the big sea of consciousness in which we all live is impacting on us all the time. But so if I was thinking about adopted people, and I were to hone it in a bit, I would venture to say that one of the issues to resolve for people is that their sense of identity feels complete to them. That they feel they have an adopted story, that they are comfortable, that they've digested that, and they can say, yes, that's me, that's who I am, that's the deal, and I can live with that. You know, I think, Honi, I mean, one of your podcasts the other week with Dawnie, who who memorably, you know, likes, likes being her. She, she did feel she's had ups and downs, but she feels that sense of completion and resolution. And so I think if, you know, we're thinking about adoption in your podcast, and I think about that, really.

Yeah. And one thing comes to mind in terms of that digestive, the digesting digestion of this, of the story.

Hmm.

Because of the— because of how I find people to come on the podcast. Uh, so I, I found them mostly— a lot of the adoptees that come on the podcast, I found them from the adopteereading.com website. So adopteereading.com, if people haven't heard about it, is a huge database of searchable database, like a library even, of 1,000 books by mainly adoptees. Um, so I found that list and found that database and, and then found the many of the guests through that route. And the other place that— the other way I found the guests is through Um, other online directories, lists, and introductions to people who are therapists. So most of the guests that have come on the show are either a therapist like Joe, um, so they've done a lot of digesting of people's stuff, a lot of digesting people's stories, or they are adoptees who are also authors and have written a memoir. So they've digested their story and that has been a therapeutic process for them, um, uh, in terms of writing their story down, putting it into words. So they may be at a different place.

Yeah.

Other people, you know, like how many adoptees are there in the UK, US, Canada, Australia, wherever we're listening? I don't know, 2 million, 5 million, something like that. There's maybe 1,000 maybe 1,000 have written their memoir. So it, it's a small percentage of the whole population that have written this memoir, and they have digested their story whilst they wrote that book. So that gives an indication in terms of where, where people may be on that in terms of digestion. So, uh, yeah. Resolution accomplished.

What I'm mindful of there, Simon, is that, you know, what's the journey of feeling resolved and comfortable? And that varies for everybody. You know, for some people, it's nothing to do with therapy.

Yes.

For some people, it is. But for some people, it's not to do with finding birth families. So it varies, and I don't think people should feel that there's one way. I think it's really important that people should feel it's the way that's right for them. But I do think there's a very common theme of adoptive people needing to share their story, to feel that, you know, like you're saying about people writing. And as you know, I run a A group for adults affected by adoption. And it's just really— we see healing in that group. We don't see anything change in people's lives, but we see a lot of sharing. This is my story, and people are listening. It's a listening group. And I think one of the common themes for adopted people is, I felt different and I couldn't really share that, and I didn't know how to share that. And it's a common discomfort. You know, nobody gave an opening. Nobody opened doors on that. And yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the things I have in mind in helping people. And it's why, you know, like your podcast and groups and talking and sharing is really important to find— you find yourself by listening to others.

Yeah, so I, I think we often in the adoptee community, we often— well, we've got a— we've, we've all got a different story, we've all got a different journey, and we've got a different journey to, you know, where— and we're, we're in a different place on our own journey. So thank you for reminding Um, as, as of that. And, but I think that one of the, the things that we in society, we don't, you know, if we look at healing, because there's obviously lots of different sorts of trauma, whether— and it's one of those words that has been pretty overused, banded around a lot these days, which kind of diminishes that, I think, some, in some cases. But when, when we talk about healing, We, we think about the, the strategy to heal, such as therapy, as you say, and that might not, that might not be a, um, a part of everybody's route, but we kind of get the strategy mixed up with, um, the aim. So by asking you about your, your definition, of, uh, of healing. I'm trying to, I'm trying to focus on the aim, right? Uh, and you know, like, you could say the journey's forever, um, or you could say it's a once and done. But you know, the, the, the journey towards a, a completer sense of identity, you know, like it, it, and I sometimes use this term of a healing curve. So it's got this progression idea to it. And, you know, we're familiar with learning curves, thinking of healing curves. But there are many different strategies on that journey to a completer sense of identity. But that's kind of where we're aiming at. We're digesting our story. Sometimes we are separating ourselves from our story. Sometimes we are working towards that completer sense of identity. But today we're talking about the aim. Well, we're starting the conversation with the aim, and then we're kind of diving after that. We're diving into the, well, how do we get there? So that's kind of my second question for you, unless there's something that comes to mind.

Well, I think what comes to mind is that a lot of things really that We might— you and I might be making this sound like, like a journey, and people might sort of say, well, like, you know, how long? You know, is that a bus ride, a train ride? You know, how long is that going to take? Because life's, life's a lifelong, you know, journey for us. And I, I, I think that healing can be— I don't, I don't want to sort of sound over-hopeful, but It can be just a thought away. Feeling better can be just a thought away. And I think you've described that yourself, you know, that you could start to think of something differently.

Yeah.

And you could start to experience hope. And you can start to feel more comfort in yourself. And that, that's, that can be, you know, quite soon. And all that really does need to be made is the decision, the decision actually, I want I want to feel better. I want to make my life comfortable. I want to feel, you know, I don't, I don't want to feel like I, like an outsider. I want to feel like I'm part of this whole thing. You know, people can make decisions. So it doesn't have to be such a long journey. It can be little pieces on, on the way that, that give you, give you peace of mind and, and happiness. And how—

yeah. One of the definitions— I was talking to a fellow adoptee who's coming on the podcast in a couple of weeks now, hopefully. And she was talking about it being a change in our perspective, a new idea. And so, you know, we can have a string of these. So it may take a long time. It's a bit— I talk about like this, like the hanging out at the bus stop for insight. So I— insight for me, or insight for me, in my personal opinion, was with those epiphany moments when I realized that my belief that my birth mother didn't love me enough to keep me Yeah, yeah. Went— it, well, it was busted. That belief was busted by a new— and a new— by a new idea, right? So it happens. Those are, those are healing moments for me. And I guess a healing curve is probably, you know, a healing curve may be the wrong analogy. It may be more like a series of steps because curve is smooth and a steps, a series of healing, a series of healing moments and, or realizations of something different to envision the story in a different way. And so the point of listening to a podcast, the point of seeing a therapist like yourself, The, the point of going to a, um, a, a community, uh, going to a— taking part, participating in a, in an adoptee community is to, to have those healing insights. That, that's, that's what we are— that's what we're talking about.

Yeah. And I—

You see, I— maybe it's just where, where I'm looking, or maybe it's the truth, but I don't hear a lot of people talking about the fact that healing is based on insight, or healing is based on busting— a busting of one's beliefs. That, that's not What I hear people talking about.

Okay. I mean, in my trade, we do talk about that. Yeah. Yeah. We, you know, awareness is everything. And, you know, once we have an increased awareness of a situation, we can change our relationship with that situation. And so, you know, it depends it depends who you're talking to.

Yes.

Um, but certainly, I mean, you know, last time we spoke, you, you were speaking about adoption and you, you were talking about being an outsider, that, that one of those general themes of— I don't think you're talking about you, but that general theme of feeling like you're an outsider. And, and what— and I remembered it well because I thought it was a really interesting thing to say. And you said that Well, people who aren't adopted have an outsider mentality as well, if I remember correctly. Forgive me if I don't. But anyway, that's what's in my mind at the moment. And I thought about that. I thought, because— and I thought, what's the difference? Because I'm not adopted, but I work with a lot of adopted people. I, in my story, have quite a lot of outsider mentality. And that's quite helpful because it does help me understand when adoptees feel like they're an outsider. But, but there's a, there's a difference. And I think that the difference is the acute intensity that an adoptee feels in terms of outsider. And as opposed to it, for me, it's just a sort of perhaps an emotion or a fear. I think that for adopted people, that outsider is exaggerated and exacerbated so much by the fact that during their lives they may not have seen people who look like them or have similar traits to them or characteristics or, you know, hair colour or whatever. And that's— and, and, and I think that, you know, that, that adds to, adds to this pain, if you like, the pain that people are trying to heal. And I, I know that you, you know, you, you reflect on trauma, and I, I think there is, is an inherent— and I, and I understand your words that trauma is, uh, you know, it's kind of like it's talked about so generally. You know, when I was Well, like 50 years ago, um, no, if somebody's talked to me about trauma, I wouldn't have even known what that word meant. You know, we didn't frame anything as traumatic. But I do think there's inherent degrees of trauma in adoption. You know, fundamentally there's a separation from from, um, an attachment figure. And I, I, I think, I think we have to acknowledge that. Now, the thing is, is, is not so much the trauma but the recovery from it. And some adoptions allow people to have a smooth recovery, a smoother, a smoother recovery. Some, some adoptive parents are, are managing that. Um, and I, I think for other people, they don't have such a smooth recovery from that fundamental separation and trauma that, that, that, that, that upsets our system. And, and, and often that, that, that is a painful thing that, that they carry. So in, in thinking of, say, what's the difference between me— I've got, I've got issues, but I'm not adopted— and an adopted person, I think that, that adopted people have very acute, intense feelings about things that aren't resolved, uh, um, for long periods of time, and they can't put words to those feelings. It's not something they can get a hold of, which is again bringing it back to groups and books and, and talking and listening are so, so important. Yeah. Yeah. So I was sort of reflecting really on our last conversation. Does that, does that make sense, Simon?

It does.

Yeah.

Um, And, you know, if we're looking at the, you know, the feeling of an outsider, spending time in a support group with other people that also feel like outsiders is one of the— so you don't feel like an outsider anymore. It's pretty logical and pretty intuitive too.

Yeah, you have a tribe.

Yeah, you have that.

You have a tribe.

You have a tribe.

Yeah.

Um, you talked about adoptive parents there as well, and I think one of the things as adoptees is obviously we're one, we're one person, we, we're each one person with one brain and one heart, and, you know, and, and yet there are two, there are two parts to that 2 parts to the trauma, perhaps. There is the relinquishment trauma, and there is the post-adoption trauma. So one is about separation from a birth mother, and one, the second, is about the grounding of our adoptive parents, the quality to which their ability to raise us, uh, with, uh, yeah. And so it— you break, you break the trauma into 2 parts. What I've realized only last week is that I, I think based on the— well, I think that I have underestimated the importance of how my parents raised me, which that doesn't make me feel very good at. That doesn't make me feel good about that. And, and, and also, I think as I reflect back on the, uh, the conversations that I've had with adoptees for the podcast, I think that we have not talked about that. We've not talked about the ability of our adoptive parents As much as we've talked about the separation of the womb. Yeah, I really feel that.

Yeah, yes, it's, you know, and as you know, that's my field. I work mostly with adoptive parents who are adopting young children, and a lot of our time is spent thinking about how to help children resolve those traumas, those separations, that difference. And And it makes for very different parenting. You know, we have to, we have to help adoptive parents have superpowers really. And, you know, so that they can have insight into this child who is theirs and who they love, but who is also different. And it's that difference. That makes up part of the identity that I really, really seek to help adoptive parents to identify. It causes hiccups when it doesn't— when, when adoptive people don't feel seen in their entirety, that causes a hiccup.

Causes a hiccup. And one of the things coming clearer to me at the moment as well is that if we think Uh, the, the, the Primal Wound was published early '90s, wasn't it? Uh, 1993. And I, I think that sometimes— and she was the first person to, to draw attention to this, uh, Nancy Berry. I, I think that we can, like, we can judge today's— we, we can judge, uh, yesterday's adoptions, last century's adoptions.

Mm-hmm.

But I have a lot of, a lot of people come on the podcast, uh, uh, around my age, you know, are in the 50s. So we, we can judge— we, we're judging a, um, being raised by our parents in the '60s and '70s and '80s Mm-hmm. by a, um, by a benchmark, by a— against a theory that only came up out in the '90s. And how can it— it can be unfair, I think.

What, what's the movie you're thinking that came out in the '90s?

Well, if, if the, if, if the, the Primal Wound came out in the '90s, right, and then, um, it— she was the first, to my knowledge, she was the first person, first person to kind of really draw attention to the this relinquishment trauma. So our, our parents— well, the professionals weren't aware of the stuff that was going on for adoptees in the '60s or the '70s or the '80s.

Yeah. Well, just, just to say that, you know, Nancy very probably drew on John Bowlby's work on attachment You know, I'm sure her work was entirely unique, um, and a unique way of understanding that from adopted person's perspective. But John, it's interesting what you're saying because the, the work on attachment was being developed just after the Second World War, um, and was, was growing. And, um, we were very aware of attachment and the impact of of broken attachment. Um, not particularly— we didn't focus on adoption in, in the way that that book did, but, you know, in the, in the '60s and '70s, um, we social services were aware of, of that seminal work of John Bowlby on, on attachment. So that was around. I just don't think we were taking any notice of it. We still did that thing of Oh, you're adopted? Wow, lucky, you know, lucky you. You, you know, you'll, you'll be having a good life. You know, we didn't, we didn't take any notice, and that, that, that was, uh, a, a, a mistake. But, uh, you know, we, we're all learning, aren't we?

And it took, and it took a long time, you know, the— it took them 2,000 years, uh, for the, the idea that the world is round to become the norm. Society changes very slowly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, absolutely. I mean, I think it's part, very much part of the pain and the, and the need for healing is that you would have been raised in that era of— I don't know how that was managed for you, but a lot of people I meet in your, in your age range that, you know, they, we, we don't— they didn't talk about adoption. It was like, you've got your parents, that's all good, you don't need to know anything about that. And, and that, that, that is so far removed from theory and practice now when we talk to little children about, about them being adopted and we help them understand and find words to describe that from as soon as they're can speak and understand. So I think this— so, but that doesn't, that doesn't mean that those children don't still have quite profound challenges. There's a different set of challenges.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

So back to, back to healing then. So yeah, what we've, we've talked to you about digesting Digesting, having digested our story, talking about resolution, we're talking about having a, a complete sense of identity. So what, what helps us heal? What do you think helps us heal? What do you see helps us heal?

Well, I think that, you know, fundamentally we're talking about separation. And I, I think that as humans, we we, we suffer from, from separation. So, you know, as adopted people, we, we're suffering because of separation at, at birth, you know, before, for, for confusing circumstances. And I think that if we can reduce the pain of separation by understanding, uh, and, and a sort of mindful insight into our own experience and making sense of our experience, that, that is what I would call healing. So reducing the sense that we're separate, outside of, different from, not part of the tribe, blah, blah, blah. We, we're reducing that field of discomfort.

Wow, there's so many different places to go from that. Um, so, you know, I was thinking all sorts of different things on as you were talking about reducing the pain of separation. So the first thing I was thinking about is actually reducing the separation. So, you know, reunification, reunion, right?

Kind of, kind of, Simon.

Kind of, yeah. But I'm just, I'm just throwing them out there, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Reunion.

Yeah.

A lot of adoptees, we, we know that, uh, we know that reunion, you know, goes differently for each different person. And the, um, uh, and, and there's a strange analogy comes to my mind on, on that. Like, it, it's that, so all the science in the world points to the fact that rich people aren't any happier, right? But we keep— we still keep on buying the lottery tickets, right? You know, because we, we, we— it needs to be. So what did the guy say? Um, Jim Carrey says, I wish everybody could be rich and famous and realize that it's not what it's all cracked up to be, right? We have to have this experience for ourselves. So despite the fact that despite the fact that we know that reunion doesn't always— well, is different for every person and doesn't always work out. Some of us may be in that place where we still believe that that's what's going to complete us. And despite all the proof, like the proof about money, and then you've got other people saying, well, you've got other people saying, well, I know I've been rich and I know poor. And I I've been rich and I've been poor, and I know which one I prefer, you know, get into that sort of thing. So, so I've been, I've been alone, and I've been in, I've been in community, and I know what feels better. So that's sort of reducing separation, reducing the pain of separation, maybe about reunion, reducing the pain of separation. Sorry, excuse me. Is about reducing of the pain. So it's looking at It's looking at the feelings. It's a feeling better in ourselves. Yeah.

Yeah, I absolutely— so it may be about the— it may be about reducing a sense of separation. And it may be about, as you say, not avoiding our feelings, which is one of the things we do. Oh, that's a difficult feeling. I think I'm going to move away from that one. humans, instead of saying, I'm going to look at that. What is that? Come on, get in here. Let's look at that feeling. I also think that more, you know, I think, and I said it before to you, more information can be, you know, be incredibly helpful. So one of my big themes is making sure people have access to their birth records, particularly in the United Kingdom. And we've been working away at that. But that, you know, that's a very information, um, can be healing.

Yeah, because we're understanding, we're reducing the pain of separation by understanding, yeah, reasons for the separation.

Yeah.

So understanding our birth mother's predicament.

Uh, yeah, exactly.

You know, that's a huge thing. And, uh, you know, so in England, the— these records were opened up as of '75, weren't they? Some, some states in the States are still closed. I think the majority is Well, I mean, yeah, absolutely.

And at the moment, we've been working on a project to make sure people can access records easily, because there are a lot of stories about it being— it might be open, they might have the rights, but they can't actually get the piece of paper in, you know, the papers in their hand. It's quite hard work to do. So we're presenting more research to the Department for Education. Who, who run the adoption and saying, let's come on, let's make this easier for people. You know, there are stories, a lot of stories in terms of reunion that, you know, people, some of the lovely people I've, I've spoken to, have searched and searched and searched and they've been knocked back and, and, and then they get those records and they, they find out what's going on and they find that person. And they, they died, you know, 2 months ago. Yeah, you know, had we been quicker with the paperwork, they would have met. So the system, the political and social system in which we operate in the UK anyway, really, really can be— needs to be better. It's one of my, one of my pieces.

Sure, for sure. And I think going back to that other thing that you mentioned, uh, in terms of this, this insight thing, or seeing things different, or feeling different. That's what we're talking about in, in terms of reducing the pain of separation. So it, it's a different perspective on our separation. It's a different— it's a shift in our feeling about having been relinquished, um, being placed, right? It's in— it's also in that it's in that, um, so we had a few birth mothers on the, on the show, and the, the vocabulary is quite key here, you know. So you talked about placing a child rather than relinquishing a child, you know. And, and, you know, I've been— all my language so far in the last half an hour or so, a little bit more than that, has been on the negative side. I've talked about relinquishment rather than placement. So it, it, it, it goes to what, what we've been talking about. But, um, what, what do you think, what, what do you think hinders our healing? Because this is the, this is the key one that I don't think we're— this key thing that isn't talked about a lot.

Well, um, it's a great question, isn't it? I think that access to information, lack of access to information hinders our healing. I think that lack of access to expertise hinders our healing. And by, by the way, that's going to be changing next year formally in the UK. It was the case that, you know, you had to have an Ofsted-registered psychotherapist in order to work with adopted people, and that's actually going to be changed next year. So because it's recognized as being a barrier to people getting the therapy that they want and need. Um, I think that, you know, everything we do is in a context. We, we're not, as I said to you before, we don't live in vacuums. Do the people around us want to support our progress and our healing, or do they, do they want us to stay the same? You know, We need people to encourage us and, and cheer us on and coach us forward. Um, and to define what, what, what outcomes we want, because healing, you know, as we're saying quite clearly, healing for one person might look like reunion. For another person, it might look like getting hold of some records. For another person, it might not be any of those things. It just might be, oh, I just want to give that some time. And, and it might be resolution of trauma that hasn't settled and hasn't healed. So I think it, you know, basically what gets in the way is lack of resource, lack of finance for people.

Yeah.

I think that obviously in the last 20 years, there's this sort of amazing, huge leap forward for humanity in the internet. Or is that— is it 25 years? You know, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's, um, accelerated information so rapidly. So that, that can be very helpful.

So yeah, yeah, I just want to, um, talk because you talked about time there, um, and this is— I, I came up with this a couple of months ago. or maybe longer. Because there's this, there's this commonly, almost cliché phrase, time is the greatest healer. Well, time doesn't actually do the healing. It's not— time isn't the greatest healer. It's an, it's an, it's an insight It's a shift.

Mm-hmm.

And, and, and that shift happens when it happens. It may take a long time for it to happen, but it always happens in an instant, you know? So I, I didn't— this bus stop analogy I came up with, right? We're hanging around at the bus stop for insights, right?

The—

but so the, um, there's a timetable posted and there's a timetable on our smartphone. Right. But for buses, there's no timetable for this insight thing. But in the same way as it might take half an hour for the bus to arrive, for the bus to come, it always takes 20 seconds for it to do the last 20 yards. And, you know, it happens. It arrives in an instant. And so do our insights. And that's why You know, what helps insights happen, and I say this a lot, is hanging around at the bus stop for insights. And listeners, you are doing that now because you're listening in to a different perspective on healing.

Yeah, cool. I love, I love your analogy. I think it's lovely. And also, you know, so, so don't forget to hang around at the bus stop, but also we might need more buses.

You might need more buses. And sometimes They don't come, they don't come for ages and then 2 come up once, right?

Yeah.

Um, so, but, so you talked about lack of access, expertise, supply of experts, as in UK, you, there's only certain, so many Ofsted accredited, uh, therapists, lack of support, um, lack of, lack of support from other people, you know, other people, some people may prefer to keep us Stuck, lack of clarity on outcomes, lack of finance. You know, like we can't afford to pay for therapy. What about the internal stuff? What about the internal barriers?

I think, you know, I don't think people want to keep us stuck. I think they think people might think they're keeping us safe, you know, by not changing. Uh, but I think that, you know, we're, we're funny, us humans. We, we want to change, but we also love to stay right where we are. I, our own brains will, um, make us say, well, look, I'm okay in this, in this frame here. And, and, and we will experience fear, you know, when, when there's going to be change. It's sometimes it can be quite a struggle. Yeah. To, um, achieve an insight. Perhaps we might have to think thoughts we never actually considered. Yeah. And, and I think that is quite a challenge to us. We need, we need really encouragement in order to think the thoughts that— because like, let's face it, insight comes to us in a, in, in our thought. You know, we might transform that into all sorts of things like pictures, or celebrations, or— but ultimately, it's a thought. And we might, might need to think thoughts we've not thought before. And that can be terrifying.

So I see a difference between I think in my experience, insight comes to me, right? I can't snap my fingers and have a new thought. I don't— I tried those affirmation ideas, and that doesn't— that didn't work for me. John?

I think that's, that's really interesting thing to say. I, I think that's, that's really interesting. I do think you can set in place conditions that, that progress and accelerate insight. I mean, you know, if you like, you, you, you know, you, you can— yeah, you're right, insight does come to us, but it will, it will, will come at a moment probably of Reduced defensiveness and, uh, heightened awareness and often more openness to experience. So, I mean, you know, there are conditions that can be put in place that, that, that, that could accelerate insight.

Yes, I totally agree.

Yeah. So let me think. So, uh, let's talk about, well, changing your behavior. Say, say for example you start to eat in a different way, to use, to use a, a pet thing of mine, you know, like weight and dieting, like, you know. So you choose to, to eat in a different way and you, you spend a few days eating in a, in a different way. And then in doing that, in changing that behavior, you start to have incredible insight into So, oh my goodness, look at that. I, I ate healthily. Oh, look at me. I was shoveling sugar down at, you know, you know, shoveling it down. So if we change, if we change something, we take, we take our mind off of the, the barriers and, and it start— and we start to be more open. Our mind has more flow to it, has more fluidity to it. Flexibility to it, we're much more likely to have some helpful insights.

Yeah.

Also, just exactly what you're saying is, say for example, you start listening, say to your podcast, and you start suspending your judgment, you know, just put your judgments out of the way, like, like we were talking about just before, you know, get your, we're, you know, we're judging, we've got a judging mind running all the time, haven't we? Judge, judge, judge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you try to suspend that and let another aspect of your thing, of your brain come through, your emotional brain, your memories, your, you know, all of these aspects of us, you're going to get some insight.

So I've got this phrase that I've been using a bit. And I sometimes run it by people. Um, I'm gonna run it by you. Um, so to me, beliefs seem more bustable than trauma seems healable. Does that make any sense to you?

Oh, that's a really interesting— where did you get that from? What did you make that up?

I made that up. I, I made that up. So So the, the, the central belief—

I think that's a really interesting thing. Um, and I, I, I'm, I might want to think about that very carefully, but I'm, I, I think that, wow, that, you know, I think they're different aspects for all of ourselves. You know, the cognitive beliefs are in, are in our cognitive mind, and they're rolling all the time. And we can change our beliefs. You're right. They're bustable. You're right. Trauma lives in a deeper part of the brain and in the body. And it is, it is designed to, to be most careful in the way that it frees itself. Trauma is there effectively when we, when we traumatize, we're protecting ourselves from any future harm.

Sure.

You know, we shut down a bit and we say, like, I'm not having that happen again, therefore my brain's staying like this and I'm protecting myself. And so you, you could, you could think of it like a child that needs a lot of nurturing in order to, to be willing to walk with you trauma. And so I think there's, there's truth in what you're saying. But I, I also think that, that we can align ourselves so that, that with, with trauma work, that we can feel comfortable with our trauma and comfortable with changing our thoughts too. Yeah, it's more sort of, it's quite a lot of psychoeducation in, in your In your premise there. There's quite a long story of understanding how, how we work, but it's a, it's a great, it's a great statement. I mean, we could spend a day on that.

So I, I, that's why I'm, you know, I'm quite open about it on the podcast. And, you know, before we, uh, before we started recording today, so I'm doing the I'm doing the bodywork on the basis of, uh, everybody telling me that it's pre-verbal. So, and obviously beliefs, beliefs are made of words and, and, and verbal, that, that I believe in, you know, it, it's a thing that involves a lot of brainpower and, and thought and da da da da. Um, so they're more easily busted, as in seen through, you know, like, um, or influenced, or influenced. Yeah. Um, so, but so that's why beliefs seem more bustable. And, and one of the, the— I, I think for me it's the, it's My journey has been more about— I don't know, I've had those, I've done, had those, some of those healing moments. I'm hopeful for more healing moments. And I believe that those healing moments will come through looking through the preverbal trauma. Through bodywork, but bodywork, and that's why I'm doing it like I'm doing it now.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, yes, super. I think it's wonderful because you, you kind of like when I last spoke to you, say back in August, you, you were, you know, not, not that interested in, in working on trauma. You were very interested in living our best lives and, and, you know, and you've decided you're going to look into that and I big respect.

And, and that was an idea that came to me on the back of seeing somebody on Facebook locally, local, saying, I've done some EMDR work with a therapist. I thought, well, they must be working—

Yeah.

Not must, but I suspected they were working local. I messaged the guy on Facebook, you've talked a lot about your therapist, can you give me a name and I'll give it a try? So that, that it was, it was something that came to me, you know what I mean?

It's not a It's not something you, you know, you, you have an open mind, and you were willing to explore that, and which is, which is what is affecting a change. Yeah. Yeah, I'm getting it.

And the reason I'm sharing that is because I think the biggest thing that has hindrance to my healing has been when I've Uh, when I've had a closed mind.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. One of our greatest, one of the greatest people that influenced our psychological work was, was Carl Rogers. And what, what he advocated was openness to experience as being, and in fact, it's part of modern psychology and counseling and psychotherapy. If we can be open to experience and be and to be, uh, curious. You know, you, you're curious about it, and that, that is really, uh, uh, instead of saying no, you know, you, you would just say, well, you were open to that, which is, which is very much part of a, a healing process, but also, I would suggest, a successful life, you know.

Yeah.

And by the way, all adoption trauma is not— some adoption trauma is pre-verbal, not, not all of it. Some of it is quite accessible memories for people, just, just saying, you know, some of it is.

Yeah, yeah, we're making that distinction between the relinquishment trauma and, and obviously depends on the age, it obviously depends on the age at which the placement happens. But it was obviously separating between relinquishment trauma and trauma that has appeared that that occurs, uh, post, post-placement, um, due to whatever, you know, and in the household and all the stuff that goes on in the, the right, the, the, um, um, the, the broader world. Like, uh, was it you that somebody, somebody shared some stats about, uh, the UK in— I think it was in the UK that, uh, adoptees are more likely to be bullied, um, than, than non-adoptees. So there's that, the trauma to do with— and that's the othering again, isn't it? You know, and because kids pick on kids that are different. So whether they're different because they're adopted, whether they're different because they're, um, got ginger hair, wear glasses, go to a different school, all the different things.

Or, or have, you know, um, gay parents or have a dual heritage and, you know, why is your mum white and you're Black and all of those things. I mean, I know Dawnie has a lot, has a lot big story with that, but that, yeah, I don't, I didn't use those adjectives, but yeah, it's perfectly possible. I think that adopted children have quite difficult times in schools and part of the development is, is to help schools to make special conditions for adopted children, to see them in need of just that little bit of extra help to belong.

Yeah, and, and the challenge that that represents to the school, because if, if we say 1 or 2% of kids are adopted, the school is set up for the majority. Yeah. And, and, and the bureaucracies you know, you talked about, um, lack of access to, uh, to, uh, birth— original birth certificates and adoption files. Bureaucracies are not set up to change, and they're not set up for the minorities. And whether that bureaucracy is a, you know, a Department of Education or, or, or part of the Department for Education, the school, then they're not set up— they're set up for a a cookie-cutter approach, aren't they? They're set up for the, uh, to serve the majority, not the minority.

Yeah.

And we come along as a, as a, as a tiny— in the UK, tiny minority. It's like 3,000 kids adopted last year, and there's probably 600,000, 600,000 kids roughly each year are born. So you're talking about a third of a percent there. Yeah. And, and, and the, and the head teacher— you talked about lack of resources— the head teacher, they're dealing with everything from gender, you know, attitude, gender, gender neutrality strategies, all this sort of stuff. They're dealing with all that. They're dealing, you know, they're not set up to, to cope with this stuff. And they, they actually You know, I'm not— I know enough about education to know how much the government shoves on them. And then they're not, they're not set up for change.

They're not.

That's not how they work. They're still, they're still doing— they're still teaching kids in a Victorian way, like 200 years on. So, um, so I'm conscious of time. Is there anything else that Comes to mind on this?

No, it was a great conversation, Simon. I would just say on trauma is, I think we can heal it very much in the here and now as well. You know, if we— so people perhaps who feel they've been traumatized, By taking good care of yourself, by, you know, putting yourself first, making sure your needs are met, by, you know, great, great, um, eating great food can increase our well-being and help, help reduce the impact of trauma. You know, making sure we don't soothe ourselves through, through negative activities, you know, like having a drink, Great, but like having too many drinks is gonna, gonna, is not gonna help trauma, you know. So it's a good, good, good care of oneself in the here and now, and encouraging people to be positive towards you can go a long way to start that process of healing.

Yeah.

Yeah, and it's free. Like, you don't have to, you know, you don't have to pay for that. So Don't, don't, I would really say to people, don't, you know, don't, you can start that right now. Decide you're going to take good care of yourself. Yeah.

And I was, I was thinking sleep, actually.

Sleep, sleep, food, moving away from exercise, moving away from not over-exercising, but moving away from addictive, letting addiction control you is very much part of Of, of, of, of acting out trauma and noticing, noticing, noticing, you know, what soothes you, what calms you, what brings, what brings you peace is a great start.

Yeah.

It's lovely to talk to you.

Lovely to talk to you, Jo, as well.

Yeah. And, and, um, it's really, I really hope our sharing our thoughts is helpful to other people.

I hope so too, listeners. Let us know, right? I haven't done this for a while. If you, you know, like, rate. If you want more adoptees to find this podcast, can you please go on to iTunes or Apple Podcasts, wherever you listen to your podcasts, and rate and review the podcast? Because that helps more people find it. Thanks, Joe. Thanks, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Goodbye.