Balancing Perspectives with Ryan Hanlon

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Ryan, Ryan Hamlin. Looking forward to our conversation today, Ryan.

Hey Simon, thanks for having me, and I'm also looking forward to the conversation.

Yeah, you're a star, you're a star. So, uh, people might be aware of, um, Ryan, listeners, uh, so Ryan's the, the boss of the NCFA, the National Council for Adoption in In in Washington, and he's also an adoptive dad.

So you've got is it four four four children four children and your youngest child came to youngest joined our family through adoption when he was about a year and a half.

Yeah. So what we're going to do, listeners, is we're going to kind of we're just going to start big picture, and then we're going to dive into something a little bit more personal. But obviously, we're going to respect. Ryan's youngest's, uh, uh, it's his, her, it's his, her story, so it's their story. So, um, I, I saw this article that you've recently posted, uh, Ryan, you did it with a, a colleague. It seems to be about the, the, the, the diversity of opinions on adoption. We've got this we've got this, uh, rainbows and unicorns view, um, and then we've got the other end of the spectrum, we've got, we've got the adoption is trauma stuff and, and, uh, and anti-adoption, uh, you know, that's—

I think you're right, um, and unfortunately there isn't a lot of nuance, especially online, um, and, and so often when We, you know, the expression, the squeaky wheel gets the oil. There's a, you know, loud, but I think rather small group, especially online, that are anti-adoption, that in some ways bully people who have more nuanced views. I can't tell you the number of adoptees I've met who have told me they've wanted to join an adoptee group and were bullied out of it because they had views that were, you know, more nuanced than, you know, than these, you know, extremist anti-adoption sentiments. People who, you know, post positive things about their birth parents, adoptees who are posting positive things about adoption online, having, you know, strangers attacking them and making, you know, it's just, it's an inappropriate way to interact, but it's also, it's harmful to adoptees who are looking to connect with others. And aren't able to, you know, find a community to do that. Yeah.

I mean, I've left groups on the back of being called toxically positive.

And, and, you know, what's unfortunate is they'll call somebody who's nuanced toxically positive, right? I mean, you're not a— you're not a rainbows and you're not in the rainbows and unicorns camp. You've— and you've met with enough people and heard enough stories. I mean, we don't— no one has an exact number of how many adoptees are in the world, but we'd say millions, right? So we've got millions of different experiences and millions of different stories, and there isn't a single experience of being adopted or being an adoptive parent or being a birth parent. And when we pretend that, we do a disservice.

Yeah. People have occasionally asked me, am I pro or anti-adoption? And I will say it depends, and then they feel that that's a cop-out. And I'll say, well, it depends on whether it's in the best interest of the child or not.

That's a great way to phrase it. Yeah. And you— we, we want, um, we don't want to say, well, you know, adoption is always the right thing. Of course not. Um, but we don't want to just remove it as an option altogether because it's often the the best option that is present, you know, at a particular moment. And certainly when we're talking about something like private domestic adoption, if a, you know, birth parent has made an, you know, informed, non-coerced decision to place for adoption, why aren't we supporting that? Why aren't we putting supports in place for that as opposed to making that rather difficult decision even more difficult by adding on stigma or shame or, you know, the— And that's what happens in that online space, when you are then attacking adoption or saying, um, you know, things that, that are untrue about those, um, those birth parents who've made that decision, that it, it adds to their stigma, it adds to the, the, um, the already difficulty that they're facing.

Something I've seen fairly recently, I, I know that you've done some work with, uh, Janelle, right? Janelle Bassin. Um, who she's— I've interviewed her for the show, a great, a great lady. Yeah, I, I have come across another birth moms, uh, Facebook group, um, and/or page, and I, I see them attacking adoptees. Have you seen this?

I, I have, unfortunately. And it, you know, some of the, some of the communities that form online are just themselves, you know, they're, they're kind of like magnets for other people who have the same of negative views. It, you know, it's— people have had difficult experiences and some people have been treated very poorly. And when that's the case, we understand why they're hurt and why they might be, you know, lashing out at others. And, you know, at times I think the best response is just to not engage at all.

Yeah.

But I think when we want to communicate to policymakers or to the public generally, it's important to put in context, the, you know, the, the broader experience, and not just cherry-pick, here are 3 good examples, or here are 3 negative examples. Instead, you know, utilizing research to say, here's the, here's the, the, the wide range of experiences, and here's what a typical experience looks like.

Yeah, I, I, um, I thought about getting in touch with the, the person about this because, but, you know, I think that we, we all need to be together. Do you know what I mean? There's in, in, um, in a, in the adoptee world, you know, we, we separate. Oh, I'm a transracial adoptee. I'm a baby scoop era and all the little cliques and like, and oh, we're in the adoption constellation. Well, I'm in this and I'm this and, and it's a lot for me. It's a lot more human if we're all just human. Right? And we're all together. So when I saw this birth mother or this group of people attacking adoptees, I thought that that's really sad, really, because shouldn't we be kind of getting along? But then I thought, well, I'm actually criticizing this person for criticizing So I'm at it too, right?

Yeah. Again, sometimes I think the non-engagement might be the best strategy. Or a lot of times with the organized negativity, my organization and many of my colleagues, when we talk through this, the idea is not, well, let's not let's not address them head-on. Let's just put out, you know, research-based information and allow that to be our response.

Yeah.

We want to not go about it the way they do, not be looking to attack, but just to try even harder to get out good information, accurate information, and let the public or policymakers learn from that. And hopefully, hearing from those voices and not the ones that are doing the online trolling and other, um, you know, really negative things that, that unfortunately is out there.

Yeah, a friend of mine, uh, came, you know, reminded me of this truth a while ago, the, the fact that pendulums do swing too far, right? Um, do, do you see, do you see it getting More, uh, well, you've used the word nuanced, um, more balanced? Do, do you, or do you think it's, do you think it's coming back closer to, to truth?

You know what, I hope, I hope so. I, I haven't seen a ton of indicators of that yet. I think, um, when I think about adoption from foster care, um, I, you know, there was this whole group that wanted to abolish child welfare. I'm not sure that's going to be a lasting movement, um, but I think they've done a lot of damage even around messaging about adoption and what outcomes look like in terms of adoption. And so I think, you know, I'm hoping the pendulum swings back and we have a conversation that is, you know, steeped in the social science research and, you know, proven therapies that are like post-adoption supports. And I hope we, you know, are including conversations about post-adoption support for birth parents as well, ongoing training and support for adoptive families. You know, I think our— I have seen our community make progress in that regard. But I In some ways, I think the online negativity at this point seems to be getting worse. And I think it's because they're, you know, they don't— they're not looking to— they get feedback from others who are, you know, of the same mindset. And so, you know, I think they're getting— they're in a feedback loop that is working for them.

Yeah.

We're, you know, often we're having very different conversations in different silos.

Yeah. Have you heard this theory or truth? I don't know what extent it is or whether it's an urban myth that Facebook have found out that anger is the biggest driver of virality. And as an organization that wants us online more of the time so it can sell more adverts and increase its stock price, increase its net profit, that they're skewing for anger. Have you heard this sort of stuff?

Well, I mean, I haven't heard that, but I think we've all— any of us who are online are seeing that. And that's not even a statement about discussions of adoption. I mean, just look at our polarized politics or, you know, People are making— well, there's the, you know, we have, at least in America, a huge number of Americans are getting their news through social media. And it's, you know, very— from, you know, very diverse sources, some of which are rather dubious. And I think, you know, we— and it's often, you know, with that anger or with demonizing of the other and then connect that to messaging around adoption. I think that can also be how we have those conversations instead of talking about what does it look like to thrive, which is what you like to talk about. The conversation is often, here's why I'm not thriving. Let me find something to blame as opposed to a way to move forward or a way to be Um, to, you know, find healing or find growth.

Yeah. Which do you prefer, healing or growth?

Um, in terms of those terms, I, I think I would want to be mindful of a particular situation. I think there are people who need healing and And I don't think we should shy away from that. And I think for others, it probably looks more like growth or change. And others, it's like, you know, maintaining the same trajectory. And so I don't want to go in and assume that's the case, but, you know, all of us need improvement, right?

Yeah.

Like, if we haven't been able to identify that, then we are blind. So there's room for growth for all of us. And I think most of us have areas where we've been hurt and need healing, and adoptees are not an exception to that.

Yeah, yeah. One of the things that I've been aware of, and I've been in this space professionally, should we say, I haven't been in space as long as you have because obviously you Worked for an agency before you came to the—

That's right.

So your background is a social worker, right?

That's right. Yeah, I have a social work degree and I've been in the field for a little over 21, 22 years, something like that.

And you've got 4 advanced degrees, I think you said on LinkedIn.

A lot of schooling. My wife tells me no more.

No more. Yeah, stop it. Yeah, stop learning. Stop learning. One of the things that has become apparent to me, or my worldview, my perspective on this, really, because I've only been doing this in this space 5 years, is the fact that I think there are parts of the adoption community that have gone past being trauma-informed and have become a little bit trauma-obsessed, is if it's possible to become a little bit obsessed, right? I don't think you can, right?

Yeah.

But, and a lot of the people that I, I say so, that I, that I speak to, you know, when I talk about my own philosophy, which is kind of trauma-informed— well, first off, it's love-grounded. Right? Love-grounded, trauma-informed, and thriving. That, that kind of sums up my philosophy in, in 6, 6 words. To what extent do you think that we are— parts of adoption, the adoption community has become trauma-obsessed?

Well, I think, um, one of the reasons I'm, I'm optimistic about the future is— about the future of adoption is I think one of the more positive changes in the last, you know, 20 or so years is that parents have had better training in advance of an adoption to be informed about how to have trauma-informed, you know, parenting in ways that I think would have been beneficial, you know, decades prior.

Yeah.

So earlier you talked about that pendulum swinging. I don't think we're at the point where parents are being told, you know, too much information and getting too much training. I don't think we're at that point, and I don't think we need to swing in the other direction, but I have met certain individuals who want to attribute everything to trauma or would make a blanket statement like adoption is trauma, and, you know, without any, any real desire to look at perhaps what preceded the adoption and think through, you know, might that be a contributing factor? Or, you know, the social science evidence is pretty overwhelmingly clear that adoption serves as a very beneficial intervention in the lives of adoptees. And so to like fully disregard the, the, you know, mountains of, of social science literature. And it, it would be a very simplistic thing to just come in and say, well, adoption is trauma, and, and leave it at that.

Yeah, okay. Um, because obviously the adoptee— the people, the anti-adoption lobby, obviously largely adoptees— they're picking, they're picking data that supports their, um, argument, right? So that they will talk about the— you— there's, um, for adoptees, 4 times more likely to attempt suicide, or I, I don't— they have, they have their, they have their data. And clearly you're looking at data that's more holistic? I don't know.

Yeah, well, I mean, let's dive in on that because I think this is actually one of the main talking points that the anti-adoption community likes to bring up, and I think they have it exactly wrong. And so I'm glad you brought— I'm, you know, I wasn't planning on talking about this, but I'm glad you brought it up because they're like, let's start with their statement. What they're saying is on its face a true statement. Adoptees are more likely than somebody in the general population to experience suicidal ideation, to have suicidal thoughts, or to attempt suicide. That is a true statement. That's a correlation though, it's not a causation. And there have been researchers independent of NCFA, independent of adoption groups, there have been researchers who have studied this in more detail. The medical school at North Carolina Chapel Hill and Duke did a combined study and looked at this in more detail. And what is it that they found? They found traumas are the predictive factor, not adoptee status, and adoption often serves as a protective factor, not one that's harmful. And so it's true that adoptees are more likely than the general population, but not because they're adoptees. It's because they have experienced traumas, and adoptees are far more likely to have experienced traumas, especially those who are placed through intercountry adoption or for adoption from foster care, to have had those traumas prior to being in their adoptive home. And so when you are only looking for a correlation, you could find all sorts of— make all sorts of crazy statements. They're just not— it's not an appropriate way to— go about social science, and they should know better. I mean, the communities that are saying this either haven't looked hard or they've been willfully ignorant because this data has been out there and it's been out there for years, and they're choosing to either misrepresent or to be ignorant. And it has real harms because I hear that statement over and over again. from people as, you know, as a way of taking down adoptees, or adoptees might even be feeling bad or be, you know, more inclined to think poorly of the decisions that were made for them in a manner that is the exact opposite of what the social science evidence actually says.

Okay, so is what you're saying that Uh, if you take a group of, um, 100 people and who have experienced adverse child experiences, this ACEs thing, right? And you, and you take, and you have 50 of those kids adopted and 50 of those kids are not adopted, and all other things being equal, right? What do they call it? Ceteris paribus or something, if I remember my Latin from university. Uh, economics, uh, that, that, uh, adoptees would be— the, the suicidality, suicidal ideation would be lower amongst the adoptee group. Is that— it's kind of— is that what you're saying?

Well, in the study that, that I'm referencing, actually adoption, it's what the researchers call it, it just completely fell out of the model. It's not a predictive factor at all. What was predictive of suicidal ideation was The number of traumas, the polytrauma experience, and the severity of the traumas that were experienced. That's what predicts suicidality, not adoptee status at all. And there are things like you can, you can then look at adoption, adoptees, adoptive households, and recognize where they, because of when the placements happened, were preventative of additional traumas. So, you know, in the scenario you gave, I would, you know, all other things being equal, meaning their prior trauma experiences being equal, I would anticipate that the adoptees and the non-adoptees have the same experiences there.

Same experiences?

The same outcome in terms of suicidality.

Right. So it wouldn't, it wouldn't be the fact that they were adopted wouldn't make any difference?

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. All right. Okay. I see, I see. Um, so let's, um, let's shift the, the, the focus now and look at, like, you as, uh, look at the, the, the micro. So you've been in this, in this space, uh, decades, right? Uh, how has being, uh, an an adoptive dad, how has that influenced your opinion and your opinion on adoption and your views on this subject?

Yeah, so I was already a strong adoption advocate at the time I became an adoptive parent. It certainly became a lot more personal for me, and I became a parent through intercountry adoption. And my son is, I see him, I got him on the school bus this morning right before hopping on this podcast. And so I see day in and day out a kid who is, he's got siblings who love him and extended family who love him and friends. And he's like all the other kids. And to think he could be in a setting where He doesn't have, you know, a parent tucking him in at night, and he doesn't have the, the supports and services that he and all children, you know, deserve. To me, that's a tragedy, and I connect the decline in intercountry adoption, I think, is a general tragedy. I hope we can talk about that at least briefly because It's often being pushed. It's a policy decision that our country, the US, and other countries have made to decrease the number of intercountry adoptions without any recognition of the impact on children. And so for me, yeah, it's personal, but I was already an advocate. It just kind of makes me even more passionate to um, see what I think is, is the, the, the wrong direction that our country and other countries are, are taking regarding intercountry adoption.

Yeah, so we'll get into the decline, but I, I wanted to share something that I heard last week which has really, really got me really up. It's, it's really upsetting to me. So I was talking to an adoption professional, she was For she leads an agency, an adoption agency. They are in into domestic and international adoption. She talks about going to three countries in Africa. I think they were Kenya, Zambia, and Malawi, if I remember rightly. And she met with officials in each of those three countries. One of those One of those officials started telling her about babies being thrown in pig pits to die.

It's awful. It's just awful.

And then, and, uh, and, and then she, she, uh, somebody in the next country also told her about that without any prompting, spontaneously in the conversation. And it just—

And unfortunately, I mean, I think the policymakers that are part of this decline don't have— they're not seeing the realities in many of these orphanages around the world. I've been— I mean, I was in Ethiopia And I'm sorry, this is like not family-friendly. If you've got kids listening, you know, close their ears for a second. I was in an orphanage in Ethiopia where children's fingers were eaten by rats. You mean like little babies overnight? And I mean, just awful, awful things. Children dying just because they're not getting proper care. I've seen that in India. I've seen that in countries all over the world. And The idea that we have so many, you know, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of families that would be open to adopting these children and hundreds of thousands, if not millions of children who could, would benefit by having a permanent family. It's a tragedy that our policymakers have not found a way to meet that need, and families are the That's where children are going to thrive. Children are not going to thrive outside of a family. It's— we've got millennia of human history has taught us that, and we're not going to— the government can do a lot of good things, but the government is not going to be a family.

And we're not necessarily saying— I'm not necessarily saying that those kids need to be— they must be moved out of their country and adopted into the UK or the US. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that that stuff has to stop.

Agreed. And we would be celebrating when— and we do celebrate when adoptions happen domestically. I mean, that's— I mean, I just mentioned Ethiopia. There are domestic adoptions increasing in Ethiopia. That's a great thing. But it's not increasing at a way that's anywhere close to the magnitude or the scale of the issue that needs to be addressed. And so I think it's a both/and, not an either/or. And when we can't do an adoption domestically in a timely manner, we ought to retain the ability to provide children a family and not let a border become a barrier there.

Yeah.

You know, but yeah, it's not about coming to the US or the UK. That's not the point. The point is let's let children grow up in a family.

Yeah. So how has you— how has being a dad through adoption, how has that changed you as a person?

Well, you know, I think I have— I think one advantage that I have on this in terms of reflecting on it is 3 children who were born to us, 1 child through adoption, but all 4 are very different. They're very just different people. And so in some ways, you know, it's not like you can't say, well, my wife and I, we've got these great genetics or terrible genetics or good parenting or bad parenting. I mean, those things matter and those things are impactful. And Yet, you know, I've got 4 different, very different kids, you know, all of whom I love dearly, but whom I love very differently because they're very different people. And it's not a— it's not like I love one more than the other. It's just, you know, 4 very, very different, very wonderful people in my life. And you— there's a humility in recognizing that it's not all about me or us as parents. They are who they are in some ways, you know, despite me. And so adoption helps see that too, you know, helps, you know, point that out. And one of the things that is specific to adoption is recognizing that what matters and what lasts is the relationship. And so like take my 3 children who were born to us, what matters when they're adults is going to be the relationship we have with them, not that there's a genetic connection, right? And same with our youngest. It's going to be, you know, a relationship. And have we maintained a relationship? Part of that's our parenting. You know, there's a million different factors that influence it. Having a genetic connection is not one of them. And so, You know, if we want— UK, you guys don't do Thanksgiving. We got Thanksgiving coming up, you know, so it's on my mind. If we want our kids when they're adults to be sitting around the Thanksgiving table with us, we, you know, having a relationship with them matters, not just a genetic connection.

Yeah. One of the themes that that we often dive into on Thriving Adoptees podcast is, is this truth that if we want our kids to thrive, then we need to be thriving too. So what does thriving mean to, to you, Ryan? And, and I just want to say that, um, I jumped, I jumped pretty quickly from what you just said to that question.

That's okay.

Yeah, no, no, you know, like, so It's because I'm taking it as true, you know, the powerful— the power of relationship and, you know, whether the time we spend with our family as adults when we haven't got— when we've got a choice whether we go back to the family or we don't.

Yeah. So to answer your question, what does thriving mean to me? I love that you bridge it with if we want our kids to thrive, we need to thrive. in part because we're role models, we're setting an example, right? So our ability to eat healthy or not spend all day staring at our scrolling on our phone or exercise, all those things our kids are watching. Our oldest right now is learning to drive. And so even when he's not driving, you know, if he's in the car with me, I'm setting an example because, you know, he's learning and he has been for, you know, many years now because he's watched, you know, his mother and I drive him around. And that's true in our life. So For me, thriving in terms of what that looks like for my kids, the temptation is, as parents, the temptation is, well, good grades and looking, you know, having lots of friends and those are, you know, doing well in sports. And those are fine things. And I think most of us want those for our kids, but that's not— That's not short or long-term, certainly not long-term thriving. I think that is really meaningful relationships. I think being healthy and making good decisions there, prioritizing things like faith and family as important and not worrying about what university am I gonna get into or how many people liked my most recent comment on social media. Uh, and, and having that perspective, it's hard to do. And, and I think you're exactly right. Part of, you know, a big part of that is how are we, um, modeling that for our children and how are we showing them, you know, through our actions what, what should be valued.

Because me and my wife haven't got any kids, right? Um, and yet I've spoken to a lot of parents, like, you know, adoptive parents, biological parents, and before I came into the adoption space, a lot of work with, with kids and parents. And one of the most telling things that I heard in this area that kind of relates to modeling is, uh, kids do as we do, not as we say.

Yeah, I think that's right. And especially in the, in that long run, um, they're, you know, that you end up kind of parenting like your parents, or if you really disliked the way they parented, you might do the exact opposite of what they did, or have some Type of, you know, reaction to it. And, you know, but we learn through those actions and through that it's— that's been set as what's normal. And unless there's some type of a disruption or intervention, we, you know, our framework for how the world works is modeled to us primarily, especially when kids are younger, by parents.

Yeah. I want to— you mentioned the word, you mentioned the word faith. So I just want to jump back a little bit and tie 2 things together, if I can do that. Uh, have you heard— first off, have you heard of this IFS, this Internal Family Systems model therapy? Right, you've heard of that?

Sure.

Um, have you, have you heard it mentioned that it's a psycho-spiritual model? Have you heard that?

Yeah. So that, I think, is one of the areas where the kind of psychodynamic view has changed in more recent decades. There's been a movement to bring in a more spiritual element as well, recognizing that it's a big part of many people's environment. And so if you're a therapist or if you're a clinician of some sort and you're leaving out something that is enormously important to half of your clients, that's a huge part of their life and their value formation and their worldview, you're missing out on an opportunity to understand how they work as a family unit. And if it's family systems, you're going to— you might be missing some of the most important puzzle pieces.

Yeah. So by spiritual, Dick Schwartz, the guy that created IFS, um, he, he's including— his view is a, is a non-religious view of spirituality, right, rather than a religious one. Um, and I've, I've— so most models are psychological, and IFS is psycho-spiritual. So he's talking about religious— well, he's not necessarily talking about religious psychology, sorry, religious spirituality, but it kind of— it's about our essence as spiritual beings having a human experience, as one guy puts it. And That he created IFS many decades ago, but he, he seems to be now realizing that the, the spiritual— he hasn't been giving enough emphasis or enough balance to the spiritual side over the, over the psych— over the psychological side. Are you— am I— is this all mumbo-jumbo? Are we making any sense?

You know, yeah, it's making sense. And I actually probably would benefit by even like learning more and reading more about it. The family systems model that I learned, you know, through my graduate studies is, I think, pretty compelling, you know, and I see it within, you know, like it would be hard to understand our family dynamics unless you really, you know, Studied the interactions we have with one another, and you really learned who we are because there's nonverbals, there's, you know, things that happen that just, you know, is not going to be clear if you're looking at just, you know, one person and not taking into account, you know, everyone, including our crazy dog. And like, what, what then happens, you know, in, you know, when it's my wife and I in a room, the dynamic's different than when it's my wife. and our kids. And, you know, like, things change. And to not bring in spirituality for families where that's an important part of who they are and how they interact with one another and how they understand the world, to just totally leave that out is missing an opportunity to work with them through a channel that they are already receptive to. Now, what I wouldn't want to do if I'm a therapist— I'm not— but if I were a therapist, what I wouldn't want to do is push spirituality on people who say, I'm not interested in that, I don't believe that. You know, if somebody came to me, said I'm an atheist, I wouldn't say, well, let's bring a, you know, religion into your family system and mix it up that way. Might be good for them, but if they're not interested in it, if they're not, you know, receptive to that, I don't think that's the therapist's role.

Yeah, good.

Cool.

Um, so we're kind of coming up on time now, Ryan, and I know you've got a hard stop in, um, In 5 minutes.

Yeah, I can, I can, I can be a little bit late if you want to keep going a few minutes.

Yeah, I wanted to ask you, we've covered a number of different topics, and I wanted to ask you if there's something that you'd like to mention that I've not asked you about. I mean, we talked about the decline in international adoption, you talked about policymakers looking to turn that back. Is there anything else?

Well, we haven't— we've talked a little bit about birth parents. You mentioned working with Janelle and having her on the podcast. And I, you know, I think that's an area where we need to continue to see more services and support. I don't, you know, I still don't think there's a lot that's happening at the— I think in— I primarily understand the US context, at least.

Mm-hmm.

I think states And the federal government could do more to bring a focus on birth parents in a way that they haven't done as much in the past. There's been more of a focus on adoptive parents than— and adoptees than there have been for birth parents. And so I'm hopeful that becomes even more a part of the general conversation. And when we're thinking through what does post-adopt support look like to ensure that we're including them and mindful of them. And so that, you know, that's to me something that's really important. And, you know, one of the other changes I'm just thinking of, like the trends, an enormous number of intercountry adoptees are now children who have a medical special need of some sort in a way that wasn't true decades before. And that's an area that I think warrants a lot more research to, you know, understand what, you know, how do those— that's a different dynamic if you're parenting a child who has a, you know, significant medical special need or a complex need of some sort. And, you know, what are the supports that families need so that they can thrive? So when they're on your podcast 20 years from now, they are talking about here's what thriving looked like in that context.

Yeah, fantastic. Thanks for coming on, Ryan. I really enjoyed our conversation. It's been far-reaching, but I hope you've enjoyed it.

Thank you, Simon. I have enjoyed the conversation and look forward to the next time we connect.

Okay, thanks a lot, Ryan. Cheers. Bye-bye. Thanks, listeners. Bye-bye.

Cheers.