De-Mystifying Healing in Adoption

Okay, so just flip around a few screens. Here we are. There we go. And we are hopefully seeing the big screen, right guys? Yeah. You'll see my— so today we're going to be talking about demystifying healing, right? So one of the things that I've learned Overdoing 630 episodes of the pod is that there seems to be a little bit of mystery around healing. So I think that's great, and it is kind of mysterious, but if we saw it, if we maybe demystified it, perhaps that would help us all move on, right? Along our, along our healing curve, along our Learning curve. So, like what what is it about? What what what what is what is um what is healing? What is it? Um what gets in the way? What's the process look like? What helps us heal? What gets in the way? Um so this is a quote from Peter Levine, who's a he's a trauma writer, and he's the a big force in somatic healing. I did 18 months of monthly sessions with a somatic healer, which I finished last summer. Um, and it's a fact of life, right? It's a fact of life. We've all had trauma of some kind, but it's not a life sentence. So today is really about hope. Right? So it's about hope, and it's about what's the key. What's the— what's, what's the key that unlocks the, uh, the, the cell door so that we don't have this life sentence of trauma? Um, so starting off, define— I'm defining my terms because for a long time I wasn't clear on healing. And when I ask people anything about healing, sometimes they're not clear either. So we need to be— what does Stephen Covey— Stephen R. Covey used to say? Begin with the end in mind. If we haven't got clarity on what the end is, then we've got very little chance of getting to that. So let's be clear. It's about wholeness. Healing for me is about wholeness. Uh, uh, 3 things: seeing that you're whole, feeling whole, and knowing you're whole. So there is a progression here, right? There is, there is a progression. This is a healing curve. Um, it's not one, it's not a 1 or a 0 or a a yes or a no. It's about that progression. And I think that the progression never ends. And for a guy that can be quite impatient, that sounds like bad news, but it's actually really good news because what it means is that life gets better. That the wholer we are, right, the, the wholer we are, Um, the life, the more we— more that we can enjoy our lives. Enjoy our lives. So I've mentioned the word feelings there, but I've not really said a lot about trauma and wholeness and emotions. For me, the, the 4th part of healing is, is being free to feel all our feelings, all your feelings. And when I was writing this slide, I was thinking I could actually call it Feeling Free to Feel All Your Feelings, right? But I thought we'd have the word feeling too, too much. But what, what, what I'm talking about here really is we all know that suppressing feelings ain't a good thing. We all know that bottling feelings up isn't a good thing. We know that numbing feelings isn't a good thing, right? So wholeness for me is about freedoms to feel the feelings, feel the feels, and not be scared of them anymore. And this is kind of big for me because I've spent a lot of time being worried about worrying, for example. So we have these feelings, and then we have the feelings about our feelings, and it all just— we get to become a moron, right? We've got more on our minds, according to a mentor of mine, Michael Neal. Yeah. So being free to— so just to get back, seeing that you're whole, right? So a seeing thing. Feeling whole and knowing you're whole, and that freedom of wholeness means that we're less bothered about our feelings. We are space for our healings. We're not trying to push them away. We're not trying to avoid them. We are open, right? We're open to them because we know. that they can't do our wholeness any harm. So people say this, that time is the greatest healer, all right? And I don't think it is, if— because if there isn't any change, there isn't any healing. So it's not the passing of time itself. It's the change that happens in in that in that time, or changes happen in that time because healing means change. Healing means change. It's a it's a change of perspective, right? A change in the way that we we look at at wholeness. So you can see there's a pink, um, outer ring of, uh, on, on this circle here, and that's to represent our psychology. And you can see a chunk is cut out of that outer ring. So what, what I'm saying here, that is, trauma is largely a psychological thing, right? And that is a— that, that is where the, the wound is, if you like. The, the wound is in our, in our psychology. It's not in our essence. So the, the, the, the shift in the perspective is to seeing that we, who we truly are, right, our essence That's the, that's the purple circle, the purple inner circle. So I'm saying that trauma has harmed our psychology, but we're not our psychology. Underneath that psychology, beneath that psychology, we are whole. So it's a change in perspective. We're looking at We look— instead of looking at trauma on just on one level, we're looking at 2 levels. On one level, the psychological level, there is trauma, but the more— at a more essential level beneath our psychology, we are whole. So that's a shift in our perspective because we're used to looking at the psychological rather than the essential. It involves a change, a change of mind, a change of belief. I remember reading The Primal Wound 12 years or so ago. I felt my instant reaction reading to it, because I read it in, you know, one— I read it in one sitting. I didn't put it down. I just sat there reading it all day. My first reaction was relief. This explains everything. A couple of days later, my reaction changed. I thought, I'm, I'm stuck with this. I am primarily wounded. The next change that happened for me is that I realized that I was not wounded because who I truly am— well, I am not wounded because who we truly are is unwoundable. Our essence is unwoundable. So there was a change of mind, you see, that I thought I was stuck with the primal wound, that I was primarily wounded, and then My mind changed. There was a change of mind. I— and the shift was, I am unwounded, I am whole, because who I truly am is unwoundable. So that's the change of mind, right? It's also about being whole, is also about a change, a change of heart. So it's not just what we see or what's going on in our mind. It's about a change in in our heart, a change in the way that we feel, the way that we feel about ourselves, the way that we yeah, a way that we see ourselves, the way that we feel about ourselves. We don't feel traumatized anymore. It's a change of heart. So if that's what healing is, what is it that heals? And it's one very simple but not simplistic answer, right? What heals? It's insights. I had a— there was a change of the way I felt about my trauma. There was a change in the way that I saw my status, my wholeness, right? Those, those are the insights that powered my healing. And That's what all the people that I have interviewed talk about in one way or another. So they might not use the word insights, they might use the word aha moment, or they might say, uh, this has shifted, this has shifted my perspective on how I see myself. Although, or they might say It came to me out of— it came out to me out of the blue. I had an— I was on a retreat, I was reading a book, I was spending some time with some other fellow adoptees or some fellow adoptive parents or birth parents, and I— and then all of a sudden it came to me, and it came to me completely out of the blue. And I don't know when it came to me, but I realized that I'm, I'm I'm bigger than my trauma. I am not my trauma. My trauma doesn't define me. So all these are different ways of— different synonyms, different words for the— for different words for insights. People talk about having an epiphany or an epiphany moment. They, uh, I, I heard this word epiphanette. A couple of months back, again, I think. So it's like an epiphany, but it's not quite as big, right? And then people get epiphany envy, right? So they go on a course and everybody's getting really great insights and having real shifts in their thinking, right? Shifts in how they see the world, shifting their perspective. And, and they're not having the, the results that other people are having, so they get epiphany envy. Right? Um, so healing for me, uh, in one word, the, the one word that answers the question, what heals? It's, it's insights. Insights are the thing that heals. Insights are the driving force of that change. You know, I went from one thought to a different thought, an insight, a shift in the way that I A change in my— a change in my belief. So the first thing that might happen is that wholeness is suggested, right? So you— I'm suggesting wholeness to you as an idea, right? Um, I was, I was on a retreat in September— not September, November with my favorite author. Um, it was my first retreat with him, a guy called Rupert Spira. I asked a question, uh, and he said— he looked at me, he looked— I was on the second line of the— there's 120 of us in this room, and he— I asked a question around childhood trauma, I didn't specify what it was, and he, he, he locked onto me. He, he, he got my gaze and he said, you were never traumatized, Simon. And he wasn't gaslighting me, right? He wasn't gaslighting me. He went on, he went on to explain what he meant. What he meant was Who who I truly am, who all of us truly are, is unwoundable. Are unwoundable. So I was never wounded because we are unwoundable. But I'm talking. I'm not. It depends on. What we mean by we, right? We'll get onto that in a minute. Get onto it here, actually. So this is a this is this is a therapist and the founder of something called Internal Family Systems. He's a it's a very Why a wise guy in the rightest sense of the wisest sense of the word, a guy called Richard Schwartz, right? He's he he's talking he he distinguishes between the lowercase s self and the uppercase S self, and he says that the self cannot be damaged. Who we truly are is being obscured. But it's there and it's whole, right? So he's pointing us towards our wholeness, and lots of other people point us towards wholeness as well. Jung, Carl Jung, he talks about the uppercase S Self. With more modern people like Eckhart Tolle, he talks to— he calls it Being or Presence. Different people have different words for it, but they're pointing to the same thing. There's, um, a Christian author called Richard Rohr who— who's— one of his books that I've listened to— I'm not a Christian, I was raised a Christian, I'm not a practicing Christian— but he, one of his books is, is called The Immortal Diamond. Right? So the diamond is the logo for Thriving Adoptees, and the diamond is also his, his metaphor, the immortal diamond. That's, that's the self that cannot be damaged. So lots of different people are pointing to the same thing with different words, and it's something that's been obscured, right? It hasn't been harmed, and we're going to get on to that. That's what the whole today's webinar is about. So if if it's if it's been obscured, if we agree with Richard Schwartz that it's been obscured, and and I do, then wholeness is it's revealed, right? It's a revelation, to use biblical language, right? It's a revelation. Um, and what I'm saying here is that trauma hides us, it doesn't harm us. So think of the— I came up with this, Candy's heard, seen this before. Um, rock-paper-scissors, right? Rock-paper-scissors, the game. So I'm saying that the rock is who we are, who we truly are. What Richard Rohr calls the immortal diamond, what Richard Schwartz and Carl Jung called the uppercase S self, what Eckhart Tolle calls presence and being, and what Rupert Spira Cause consciousness, right? So they're the same word— sorry, different words for the same thing. That's who we truly are. So Nancy Verrier, with her primal wound theory, would say that, um, the scissors in this rock-paper-scissors metaphor, that's, that's the metaphor for the trauma. But we all know, right, in rock-paper-scissors, that rock beats scissors because scissors can't cut rock. I'm not denying trauma here. I'm saying that the scissors is the wrong metaphor for the trauma. A more accurate metaphor for trauma is the paper, right? So the, the paper hides us. The paper hides us. It doesn't harm us, right? Trauma hides us. It doesn't harm us. So it's a revelation, right? Opening the layer of— opening, unfolding the, the layer of paper. And we're getting, uh, we're revealing— sorry, we're revealing the, the truth of who we are. We're differentiating the truth of who we really are With— sorry, I'm getting confused with— I'm seeing a mirror reflection in this, in the screen. This is who we are. This is the trauma. And what we're doing is we're revealing our unwounded, our whole self. By unfolding the trauma, and then we're getting more and more space between who we are and the trauma that we feel, right? Trauma is largely a felt thing. It's a felt thing. It's something that we feel. We feel terrified of rejection, Or we feel insecure in ourselves, or we feel worried about how people are going to react to us when the screen— when the presentation messes up because the screen— trauma hides us. It doesn't harm us. So we, we've got a fundamental disidentification here going on, right? We're separating who we are from the trauma that we feel. We are not our trauma. There's a— there's an adoptee who's also an adoptive parent posting stuff saying I am trauma. Well, no, we're not. Trauma is something that we feel. It's not who we are. Next stage on, right? We're seeing our wholeness, and this clipart guy— the guy's eyes are out on stalks, right? He's seeing his— he's seeing his wholeness for his— for the first time. And it's an— it's an eye-opening moment. It's an eye-popper, right? Because when we see our wholeness, we know that we don't need anybody else to— to complete me, or anything else to complete us. We are Whole, we are complete, we are intact, we are enough. So quite profound stuff, right? That's this is the heat kind of like steps along the healing healing healing journey. I believe I'm whole. So it's something that I heard, something that I see, something that I think, something that I feel. I feel whole in my heart of hearts. So we're looking at something that grows. This, this wholeness grows, right? It starts at the top. It's a head thing. So if you look, it's a head thing. It was an ear thing, a sight thing, a brain thing. Then it, it, it, it— the, the feeling floods our body. The sensation of wholeness floods our body, and it comes down, and it's a felt realization, right? So It's not— it's something that's going on in our heart, but also something that's got in our head, and they're starting to connect, right? We're not just thinking we're whole, we're feeling we're whole. And then the next stage is that embodied truth where it has flooded— wholeness has flooded our body. So my work with the somatic experiencer has, has informed this, informed this, this embodied truth of wholeness. It's embodied, embodied truth. So, you know, and the whole thing is, you know, uh, Vessel van der Kolk and the The body keeps the score. We know sometimes we're talking about pre-verbal trauma, trauma that we haven't got words for, subconscious trauma, we can't remember it, pre-memory trauma, all these different things. And Peter Levine, the somatic chap I talked about, says the issues in the tissue, right? So this wholeness is flooding us. It's flooding us head to toe. It's got depth. It's got power. It percolates us, right? It percolates us. So, you know, like how— imagine, take a drop of ink And, and I'll take a bottle, I think, and just put a— pour it— pour just a little drop into one end of the swimming pool, and the, the water goes from, from clear to light blue. And that— the— It's seeping. The color is seeping. and the world, the pool, is changing, and it's getting more and more of it is getting colored by that little tiny bit of blue ink. So what started off as an idea has— the idea of wholeness, the idea that you are whole, the idea that we are whole, the idea that we are unwounded because we're unwoundable, that floods our body and it brings a sense of warmth and peace and tranquility. Um, calm. And going back to what, um, I mentioned, Rick, uh, Richard Schwartz, the IFS guy, he, he's got— he characterizes this uppercase S Self, who we truly are, with 8 Cs, and I can't remember them all, but The one I— the 2 that I really remember is the calm and the connectedness. And why is that so big for us? It's because we felt that we— us as adoptees, we felt that we don't fit in, or as adoptive parents, we've felt separate. We've been othered. We've felt perhaps we, um, we're faulty because due to infertility we haven't been able to have biological kids. So this wholeness floods us and percolates us And leaves us feeling calmer and more connected and peaceful and tranquil. It's there, and this becomes a background to, a background to our, our life, a background to our day. So wholeness isn't just something that we get, it's something that we feel. And it's not just something we feel, it's something that we live. Growing profundity, richer wholeness, wholer, feeling our wholeness more of the time. And why, why is that important, right? This, this is an adoptee, Sydney Banks. He's no longer with us. It's a Scottish adoptee, moved to Salt Spring Island in, um, near Vancouver, British Columbia, um, and had an enlightenment, an enlightenment experience, realized like an enlightenment experience, like a light bulb moment, right? He, he, he realized, he realized that this thing, right, we're, we're, we're so many of us are afraid of our experience. We're afraid of our feelings. We're afraid of our thoughts. We're, we're afraid of the, of the world, right? So what if, if we learn not to be afraid of our experience? We learn not to be I talked earlier about me being worried about my, my worrying. So what, what stops us healing? Stops us healing? What gets in the way? We've got trauma glasses on, right? If we are looking at— I was skiing a few weeks ago. If we're skiing, if we put orange glasses on, orange goggles on, after a while the snow looks orange. The, the, the biggest, uh, Einstein said the biggest question that we can ask ourselves is whether the world is for us or against us. And with trauma glasses on, we feel that the world is against us, and trauma Tints our view of the world. We've forgotten that we've got trauma glasses on. We've been wearing them so long. The world looks scary. The the throwaway comments look like microaggressions, you know. We get kidded. Something's going on inside us that makes the world look like a scary place, and it's trauma, and it's the trauma glasses we've been wearing for an awful long time. It gets in the way of seeing this stuff. We've got that inner critic, that voice in our head, and it, it's a, it's a liar. It tells lies, and those lies are on repeat. There's— we feel that there's something wrong with us until we realize that we're Perfect with that diamond, right? Until we learn to, and yeah, until we have that insight that the voice in our head is a liar, it becomes an opinion that we no longer reckon. What's the word? An opinion. That we no longer value. Sorry. So you know, you can imagine the the liar, the voice in our head, the inner critic, having a complete field day with the idea that we're whole. No, you can't. You're not whole. Look what— look at all these things that went on for you. You're not whole. How, how can you be whole? There's, um, there's herds led by leaders out there who, who think the best that we can— the, the best that we can do is cope, who don't believe that wholeness is a thing, believe that only coping strategies, that's, that's the best That's the best that we can do as as adoptees. So we don't want to be following that that leader or following the rest of the herd that believes that that is the best that we can aspire to this coping thing. Trauma bonding. So much, so much of this, we— it, it creates new relationships which feel good. Perhaps we feel accepted. But it also, it, it sticks us, it's, it, it bonds us to our trauma. It becomes who we are. It becomes our every living moment. It becomes our ex— it becomes our experience. We are Held back by it. And a mentor of mine says that, uh, he— helium— sorry, encouragement does— encouragement does for people what helium does for balloons, right? So when they, they fire that, they, they fire that blower at the helium in their hot air balloon and the balloon rises, right? What we're careful if— what we get if we're not careful who we hang around with, we get people that are literally throwing sandbags. They're throwing sandbags into the basket of these helium balloons and Those sandbags keep the basket, keep the balloon on the earth. They stop it rising, stop it thriving. They stop it growing. They stop us developing. They stop us on the way. On— they're an obstacle on our journey to, to wholeness. So what's going on within these spaces? There's, there's group thinking, right? There's group feeling, and there's group doing. Because what we think drives how we feel, what we feel drives how we do. So this is about stuckness. People People staying stuck. I was talking to a mum, a foster mum, the other week, and she gives— she's had her— oh yeah, she's had a lifetime of her own learning. When She's very clear and honest with her, with the kids that she fosters, and clearly the older they are, the less punches that she has to pull. But she talked about what she shares with teens, and she said that she'll say, look, you know, that there's— she cannot— she is not going to deny the trauma. She will not deny the trauma. These kids have had trauma. They've been removed due to neglect or abuse. They've bounced around the system, so they've got the trauma from the— they've got the trauma from their biological family. They've got the trauma from the system trauma. And stuff that might have gone on with other foster families. She said, "I'm not going to deny. I'm not going to deny the trauma. That would be a disservice. But you've got you've got a choice now. You can either succumb to it or you can rise above it." Like what? What honesty? Radical honesty? Radical candor? But she's offering the people a choice. If you think that the best that, that you can do is cope, then you've not got a choice. If you think the best that you can do is what the people are doing in these, um, in, in these groups are doing, then Well, they're not. They're not seeing a choice. Most of us, most of most of us, most of the time aren't choosing what we think, feel, or do, right? So because we're not aware that there is a choice, what that foster mum is doing is putting the choice out on. The table. And then you've got some, you've got some options, right? Yeah. Whether are we going to succumb to it, are we going to rise above it? That was fantastic. So this is the 4th bit that I mentioned at the top of the The top of the presentation. Being free to feel all your feelings. It's big. It's huge. Oh, sorry. I've showed you that one already. This is the experience. Afraid of their experience. Afraid of afraid of our feelings. I've shuffled the the slides around and put them. Duplicated. We don't need to be afraid of our feelings anymore. But here's the thing, right? Traumas, trauma storm. Trauma storms are scary. We've got the we've got the thunder. We've got the lightning, we've got the, we've got the, the rain. The rain is, is the tears. You know, how many of us have thought that we'll never stop crying, right? It's in the storm. Life is, it, it, it is scary. Here's the question, right? What do the— what do the storms come and go in? Because every storm passes, right? This— they say that in the Bible. Yeah, this too shall pass. What do the storms come and go in? They, they come and go in the sky. We are the sky, not the storm. We are the space in which all our emotions, positive or negative, they all arise. When the, when the trauma, when the, the, when trauma storm blows, blows out, right? Right. And the truck— when the storm's gone It doesn't take a piece of us with it. We're still there with a, with a constant background to the feelings that we feel, the, the, the weather. And, um, so what, what's the, the, the sky like? Well, compared to the storm, it's silent, isn't it? It, it's silent. It's at peace. It's open. The sky doesn't chase away the storms. The, the sky doesn't Stop the storms happening. The sky is always at peace. The storm may be raging, but the sky's at peace behind it. Peace, calm, open, tranquil, expansive. It's way bigger, right? The sky's way bigger than the storm. We, we are bigger. We are bigger than our trauma. We are more than our trauma. We are space for the trauma. But the thing is that the— we, we— it's, it's so scary. Because we feel that the trauma has engulfed us, but all the time we engulfed it. We're way bigger than it. And this, this, the sky— why, why doesn't the sky chase away The storms, because it knows that it can't— the storm can't damage it. Storms don't damage the sky. The sky's not afraid of the storm because it knows the storm will pass. It knows the storm will— will— the storm will not wound the sky, right? The sky's always at peace. It's at peace with what happens. Openness, surrender. You know, here we hear these, um, authors like Michael Singer talking about, you know, um, what we resist persists. Well, the sky is wide open. The sky's not bothered. The sky's not scared of the storm. The sky's wide open for the storm. Come on in. The sky isn't afraid of the storm. Uppercase Us, the rock, presence, consciousness, same thing. Then when— then when they're not afraid, I'm not afraid. The sky isn't afraid of the storm. Because it knows the sky can't hit it. That's the end. Got a few more little screens I can go through, a couple of minutes. Just did a few backup ones. Didn't know how long this would last. So we're talking about insights at the top. Another word, a metaphor for insights, right? And then the penny dropped. Then I had the insight. So some pennies keep dropping. If you think like the metaphor of throwing a penny into a well for good luck, for good luck, I think they do that in the States as well as they do in the UK. You throw the penny in, there's a little As it hits the water and then it goes and it lands at the bottom of the well. That's a penny drop in real life, right? I'm talking about metaphorical penny drop moments. Wholeness is one of those pennies that keep dropping. It just gets Deeper and deeper. It's flooding more and more of our body, filling us up with more and more peace and calm and, and, and wholeness, right? It's— it never stops deepening. The insight, the wholeness never stops deepening. Insights. I can see clearly now the storm has gone. It's a song, right? I can, I can see clearly now the rain is gone. I just changed it. I can see clearly now the storm has gone, right? So when, when we're out of the trauma, when we're at, when we're at peace, we see more clearly. We have more insights. We have—we don't. When, when, when the when we're full in the in the storm, we're having that trauma reaction. You know, the fight or the flight. We have no insights in at that time. Our frontal lobar amygdala, whatever it is. We, we can't— there's, there's no, there's no way out. The insights come after the storm has gone. So trying to create space here for insights to happen, for more calm to happen, right? And the thing is, once we've seen this We're less scared, but when the storm happens next time, and then the next time, and then the next time, it's that ever-deepening. The, the, the more grounded, the, the more deeper we see our wholeness, the less traumatic trauma is, the less scary storms are. We talk about this, don't we, in terms of adoptees talk about fog lifting, right? They— the trauma has been— well, we haven't seen the trauma because of the fog. Adoptive parents use this too. They haven't been prepared. For traumas, storm. So they haven't seen, they haven't seen the storm. So the fog, the fog lifts. Uh, I've got them out of sequence. The fog, the fog lifts. The fog lifts to reveal the storm. The storm passes to reveal the sky. The sky that we are. And that hopefully gives you a glimpse of your intactness. That's all I'm trying to do today, give you a glimpse, a glimpse of your intactness. Let's see if I've got any other slides that add more, a bit more value on it. Yeah. So you heard this idea about unpacking our emotional baggage. I've heard this from adoptive, from an adoptive parent, and it made it made really good sense to me at the time. Right? We're unpacking our emotional baggage. So we're gonna. If we unpack our emotional baggage, we're going to lighten our load. We're becoming aware of our feelings, the feelings that we haven't seen before because we've been in the fog, right? In the fog. And then we— so we unpack it, but we could be doing that forever. Unpacking our emotional baggage, it just comes up and it keeps on going. It keeps on going. It keeps on going. Just keep on going. But here's the thing: we're the bag, not its contents. We the bag is inherently free of its contents. The bag. Isn't the trauma. The trauma is in the content. Let's focus on our wholeness, our peace, our calm, the stuff that's there, the space that's wide open, the, the peace that we The peace that we truly are, the peace, the peace that passeth all understanding, right? It's not a, it's not a mental, it's not a mental thing. So this is a reality check, right? I might sometimes feel wounded, but I know deep down that I'm whole. The feelings of being wounded still come up, but, but we know, but I know deep down that I'm whole. So My feelings are less painful. My trauma's less traumatic. I can be open, open to those feelings because I know those feelings can't harm me. Deep down, we're, we're whole, right? Hearing thing, seeing thing. Knowing thing, feeling thing, embodied realization all the way down. I can feel all my feelings because I know they won't hurt me. And we'll we'll finish on this one. Yeah. Peace and happiness are the nature of your being, the nature of our being, the nature of, of all our beings. Trauma's just hidden it. We've been. We spent the last hour or so, 50 minutes unveiling, unveiling it because trauma hides that peace and happiness. It doesn't harm it. It's a veil. It's a curtain. It's a. Trauma obscures the peace and happiness we truly are. Got a couple of minutes if anybody'd like to ask any questions. All right, shell-shocked. Cool. Thank you, guys. I saw there's something in the chat. Just people saying goodbye. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Thank you, Simon. This is great. Yeah, you're welcome. You're very welcome. See you all soon. If you want to talk about this, I'm, um, simon@thrivingadoptees.com. Thanks so much, Simon. You're welcome. Take care. Bye.