Fear & Faith With Matthew Straeb

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Matthew, Matthew Strapp. Uh, looking forward to our conversation today, Matthew.

Yes, please. Yeah, very good. Yeah, cool.

So Matthew is the, uh, the president of Heart Galleries of America and the co-founder, I think. Is that right? Yeah, that's right. Um, and Heart Galleries helps kids in foster care find homes, or people that want to adopt kids out of foster care find, find the, find the kids. And Matthew's done some great work in that, uh, in that area. So if you haven't heard of Heart Galleries, check them out. As always, listeners, links in the show notes. So Matthew, what does, what does thriving mean to you?

What is thriving? Yeah, um, growing, uh, enthusiastic, um, you know, forward-thinking, um, you know, wanting to get something done.

Getting something done. And, and, and what about Thriving Adoptees? When you think of, when you think of Thriving Adoptees, when the, the name of the podcast, right, what, what comes to mind when you think about that?

Um, That you're, you know, that we're trying to get more kids adopted. I mean, and we're trying to energize the system, that we're trying to introduce new ideas or concepts that can be different or change the way things have been done all along. And then we're open to new ideas.

Yeah. So is it about curiosity then? Is that one of the key things?

That too. I mean, open to new ideas means you have to be curious, you have to be aware, you have to be willing Uh, to, to engage, uh, new concepts, new ideas. I think that's one of the challenges we have in our— a lot of systems, not just this foster care adoption system.

Yeah. So, and I guess it, it sometimes we have, uh, challenges as individuals, right? Uh, openness. So I don't know if you have them in, in the, in the States. We have these things in the UK called grumpy old men. Right? Yeah, those things, right? So we're like— the idea is that, or my hope is that I don't become one of them. But grumpy old men, um, right, maybe it's a global phenomenon, I'm not sure, uh, but we, we are grumpy old men. We are. I'm, I'm lumping myself in with them, all right? But they're very set. They're very set in their ways. They're not open to to change, uh, in, in terms of thoughts, in terms of beliefs, in terms of habits. Everything's kind of locked, locked down and, and shut, shut up. The curiosity has, has, has gone. But we don't want that in our, in our kids, right?

Of course not. No, we want to— we want them to be, uh, to feel like they can— they have beliefs, but they can change their belief system which, you know, belief system is what we're raised, you know, we're sort of, we can be born with a belief system to some extent, but also we are raised with the belief system. But maybe that belief system doesn't serve us and that's how we become grumpy.

Yeah. Yeah.

You have to be willing to change our belief system otherwise.

Yeah. There's a big, there's a big how question coming to me about how we do that. And as soon as that how question comes, uh, it comes to mind when I think of it. I think that's a bit trite, that's a bit, um, it, it, it's perhaps too simplistic. It's more about like how change happens. So what, what's your, what's your take on how, how we change beliefs or how beliefs are changed?

Well, I don't think we do it easily, so we have to experience some kind of, uh, crisis, pain, Failure to change, because otherwise why would we change? Because it's working fine. If we think it's working fine or we get comfortable, you know, we have to be— we have to get comfortable with being uncomfortable. That's how change happens. And if you're not comfortable with change, you mean things are changing all the time, then that's how you become grumpy.

Same, no worries.

Because at the end of the day, As you get older and older and you, and you get frustrated and, and, and you haven't achieved or, uh, or thrived, um, throughout your whole life, you're going to be very frustrated and angry at the end of your life. And that's how you become grumpy. Yeah.

So how can we, uh, imbue that in, in our kids? What's, what's that about? It, you know, to what extent, um, is it, is it about modeling? Is it about leadership? What you, you've got You've got 2 kids, I guess?

Yeah.

How old are your kids now?

25 and 27.

Yeah, I was gonna guess, I was guessing 20, so I'm not wrong. Yeah, so, um, what, what does, uh, imbuing that in, uh, in your kids mean to you?

Well, the first thing I have to do is let go of my kids so that they can have their own ideas, their own belief systems, they can have their own failures. I think a lot of parents, um, save their kids too much. They wait, you know, they don't let their kids fail. And, you know, my approach has always been I want my kids to fail because that means they're trying new things. And then there's 2 things going on. One is how do you respond to failure? Okay. And number 2, I want them to fail while they're, while they're around me, meaning before 18. So I don't want to save them. I want them to fail so then I can actually have some input because once they leave home, I have less and less influence on them to demonstrate to them how you deal with change, how you respond to change, you know, and that change can be, can be good. Number one, change is, is a constant. It is constant. Things are constantly changing. So, you know, and I wish, you know, I wish a lot of our systems that we deal with today were willing to change.

Yeah.

Yeah.

For me, it's one of those challenges about bureaucracies that they're built not to change. They're built to last.

They're too comfortable. They're too comfortable and they're self-protecting also, which is very challenging. Yeah, self-protecting industry or bureaucracy is one of the most challenging things to break.

Yeah. If we go take it back to the kids, one of the ideas that you mentioned was the the notion that we're born with beliefs. Yeah. Can you explain a little bit more about that?

Well, my personal opinion is we're all born with the fundamental idea of a God or some kind of a higher being, a creative intelligence. Whether or not we want to listen to that fundamental idea or whether or not we act on that fundamental idea is the choice that we all make. Not, not one way is not better than the other way. I'm just, for me, that the fact that I've been able to tap into that inner resource has made my life a lot, a lot easier.

Yeah. Can you give us some examples about that? Of that?

Well, I mean, you have, you know, basic idea, you know, you can't experience faith unless you engage it. So you have to You know, if you've got a challenge or something ahead of you, you know, the courage, the courage comes after the action, not before. Too many, I think too many times I've gotten stuck only because I was worried about what was going to happen on the other side. So I would kind of try to muster courage up. But actually what happens is I do the action with, with the idea, the faith that it's going to be okay, because it doesn't really matter what the outcome is because I'm taking the action. The action is the key. And then afterwards comes the curve. I look back and say, oh, you know what, that wasn't so bad. And how did I get from here to there? And then I can look and see how, how other outside sources, uh, played a role in that. Because at the end of the day, I don't really control a lot of outcomes. So, no, does that make sense?

Yeah, it does. Um, the, the metaphor that popped into my head was— I thought of a movie metaphor. So I, I, when I met Matthew, um, A month or so ago, he was explaining that his background is as a colorist in Hollywood, coloring movies. So getting the balance right. And so the movie metaphor that came to mind was Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, where they've got this massive chasm to overcome. Do you remember that?

Yeah, it's shocking that you're going to bring that up because that's exactly the example that I use in many cases. And I've heard that only one time before in the open forum. I know what you— when he steps out into the valley, into the gorge, and then it all comes open to him that he can see the log that takes him across the other side.

Yeah, so there's stepping stones.

Yeah, right, right.

Stepping stones across this massive gorge or chasm, and if he misses, he's going like 1,000 million feet down, and that's gonna be the end of Harrison Ford. But of course, it being a movie, it doesn't happen like that. But that he takes one step at a time, and the stepping stone— the stepping stone appears as he's taking the step.

I think if I remember this rightly, he has to take the step before it appears.

Yeah. And that's faith. That's what faith means, right?

Exactly. Yeah. It's so funny because you're the second person that— because I use— I've used that example over since that movie came out. And it stuck with me. And you're the second person that actually brought that up and recognized it. That's really interesting. Yeah, very good.

I don't know where that comes from. Um, so what— how do we— how do we do this for our— for our kids? You know, like, if I'm, uh, an adoptive parent listening, right?

It's—

it's the same whether you're an adoptive parent or, um, a biological parent, to use a jargony kind of a word. How do we How do we— you talked about being born with, um, belief. How, how do we, how we, how do we turn up their faith, faith dial? What's, what's this about?

We're talking about foster kids.

We're talking about foster kids. We're talking about kid kids. Talk to me. Um, I'm interested in the, the wealth of your, your wisdom and your learnings. So whatever feels right for you from what you've experienced?

Yeah, I think, you know, I think at the end of the day, we all experience trauma. And I think that trauma comes at an early age. It doesn't matter whether you're in, you know, whether you're in a healthy environment or not healthy environment. We all experience trauma. And I think that trauma introduces an opportunity. If we, if we experience trauma and the first thing we all, you know, we have a bunch of fear that goes with that. That fear can manifest itself in a lot of different, in a lot of negative ways. We can be looking for other, other things. You know, we want to control things. For example, we become very controlling. We become very angry. We turn to substances. We turn to other things to try to minimize that fear. At the end of the day, we need to teach each other how to help each other in the fear. And that a lot of that trauma that's generating fear really has to do with us being able to trust other people so that we can express our fears. And then once we talk about our fears, because fears are all made up in our head, there is no real fear except height. And, and, you know, there's not— there's only a couple of real fears in the world. So we create all these fears. So if we expose those fears, I found that, and we allow inside of a trusting relationship, Whether it's with adults or kids, it doesn't really matter. That fear seems will dissipate.

Yeah.

That leads to faith and hope because what we can do is look back, we see what happened, we have to reflect, and then we can see that, oh, okay, next time I go in that situation, I'm gonna have a lot more faith and hope, and I'll be able to deal with it differently.

Yeah. So is Is, or to what extent is fear the opposite or the absence of faith?

Um, well, fear isn't really the abs— fear is the only antidote to fear is faith at the end of the day.

Okay.

Um, absence of fear, uh, never really happens. I don't think it's tough. Yeah.

Interesting. Tell, tell me more about that.

Abs—

Tell me more about that.

We all try to avoid fear. We're all— because, you know, fear generates some emotions. We try to get rid of fear, okay, through all different means and mechanisms, which creates, you know, a lot of different types of characteristics that are not really favorable. And that can be lying, cheating, whatever, all kinds of different things to try to get, you know, just to get rid of the fear. But the reality is you're never going to really get rid of fear Because it's, it's a con— because our minds are creating this stuff. Um, only way to really get rid of it is through faith. You have to have faith.

Yeah. One of the metaphors that's popping into my head for, for fear, and as you're expressing it, is the, uh, well, it's a— I'll share a little bit of a, a story. So I was, I was water skiing, um, Well, I was watching my friend water ski, and this is like 30 years ago, and suddenly the boat did 180 degrees.

Wow.

Yeah, 180-degree spin. And I was kneeling in watching— I was going backwards, right? So I wasn't facing— I wasn't like the driver's facing forward. I was facing backwards watching my mate, and I was, and I was near— yeah, I was kneeling in the back seat.

Right.

So when it did 180 degrees very quickly, I nearly went over the side.

Sure.

Because I was kneeling up and I kind of bruised my ribs and stuff like that. And, and I was like, what the hell? Because I hadn't realized what had happened. And what, what had happened, uh, speedboats are steered by, uh, by a wire, by, by a steel wire from the steering wheel, and, and, and it, and it twists the engine.

Right, sure.

And the— but the propeller has a natural bias, right? It's not set, it's not set straight, it's got a natural bias. And that, when that steering cable snapped, the natural bias kicked it to one side, right? That's why it did 180 degrees. So yeah, failure— it's a failure of the wire. So, um, I, I, I think that our, our brains come kind of programmed with that, with that natural negativity bias. It's about— people talk about it being, is it the reptilian brain or something, about us keeping, keeping us alive?

Yeah, I think people are, are biased towards negativity, actually. Um, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a protection mechanism for ourselves. We look at the worst case and then we decide, can we deal with that or not?

Yeah.

And looking at, you know, what, what could be a positive outcome.

I think we—

our bias is negativity, actually, as humans.

And I guess in, in, in adopted kids, or, and especially adopt— foster adopted kids who are in foster care, that, that dial, that innate human negativity bias has been amped up somehow because I see it all the time. Because of their life experience, because of the multiplicity of, uh, homes that they've been in, you know, the placements. I talked to somebody the other day and the kid had been— the kid had been placed in 23 different homes. Yeah, before it landed. Yeah, so given that this Right.

You know, there's an opportunity there because I've seen it in many kids that that's drawn, you know, in those that's drawn them and connected them with their God, a God, because that's the only constant they have in their life. Or in a lot of cases, a mentor or a guardian ad litem. There's a, there's 2 or 3 opportunities for a constant to appear. in those transitions. And if that can be fostered, then, then they have a chance, you know, of actually not gaining so much negative bias, I think. Yeah.

Yeah. So the constancy is the antidote.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And the constancy is actually, um, you know, there's not many opportunities for constants to appear in a foster kid's life as they move from house to house. It can either be the case manager a guardian ad litem, some kind of mentor, or, you know, a faith.

Yeah. So what does this mean for adoptive parents raising kids ex-foster, out of foster care, or who have been adopted in terms of fear and faith? What, what, what are the implications of that?

Well, I think there has to be a level of acceptance by the parents that you're dealing with a kid that's been traumatized, that's going to be angry. And you have to really focus on gaining and building the trust. And you do that by doing trusting things. You know, you treat them the same as the other. If you have other kids in the home, you you basically discipline them like you would a your own kids. You know, you don't favor them one way or the other. But at the same time, you try to you've got to gain that trust with them. Otherwise, they're not going to open up. And you're not going to have an opportunity to minimize or alleviate that fear and anger.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The word fear comes up again. I had this strange question popped into my head, Matthew, as they, as they sometimes do. One happened to me this morning is, and you're the first person that I've got to ask about it, you know, ask for their opinion. So What, what do you think trauma is made of?

Well, there's, there's lots of different types of trauma, right? There's imagined trauma, there's real trauma, there's physical trauma, you know, mental anguish or trauma. So I think it's all of those things. And, and then we kind of lump it all into one big bucket. But it's not— that's why it's so complicated. But I think, yeah, I think trauma is, is, is Um, is when, when you've been, um, I, you know, in some sense abused or mistreated, um, and you don't have any way of fixing it or, or, or expressing it. Yeah, it becomes— yeah, and trauma turns into anger. Yeah, yeah, because you're pissed off. You're pissed off. I mean—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rightfully so.

Yeah.

And we're, we're back to grumpy old men.

It's not their fault.

So yeah, I, I didn't get to an answer for my own question this morning when I thought of what is, what is trauma made of. But I, I was thinking about the answer as I was listening to you, and I, I agree, it, it seems very complex. But the, but the idea that popped into my head is one of the main ingredients of trauma is fear, right? You could, you could, and you could simplify it, right? So you could say, you said anger as well.

Um, well, the thing is, a lot of parents, um, a lot of potential, you know, foster or adopted parents, they have— first of all, you have to recognize that these kids have been traumatized, that they have fear, and that they're angry. If you don't do that and you you think that they're— it doesn't— you just ignore it, you're not going to have a good outcome. You're not going to have a good outcome.

No. So, um, so it's like, to me, like trauma's made of— trauma's made of anger, trauma's made of, of fear, maybe trauma's made of shame, sometimes shame. Yeah, I was talking to a kid who who was, um, well, a kid, a 23-year-old guy who was abused as a, as a kid.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, I came up with this metaphor, uh, a couple of years ago now, and it— the, the metaphor goes like this, that it's on this theme, right? So that's why it popped into mind, that trauma is a toxic cocktail of fear. Um, and we could go further than fear, probably go to terror, right? Fear, terror, anger, fury, you know, amped-up anger, and, and, and, and shame. But, but, but we are the glass, not the contents of it.

Correct. I mean, because somebody— because somebody can go through a traumatic event And they can see it 3, 2 or 3 different ways on the other side. Some people it affects one way, then a different other way. It's not the same outcome.

Yeah. I, I agree. I, I agree with that totally. It's about the different perspectives that we each have a different perspective on. What I was kind of getting at was a separation from the trauma that we feel Yeah. Trauma is largely a felt thing, you know. It may have all those different, uh, origins as you're describing, but as it manifests, it manifests— it usually manifests or mostly manifests as a, as a feeling thing. It doesn't, it doesn't manifest as a— well, it manifests more as a feeling thing than it does manifest as a thought thing, right? And, and it's not who we are.

Well, I mean, trauma, if it's not— if you're not physically affected by it, then, um, then there's an emotional, psychological point, you know, that's— but that's up to us, right? How much we want to let that rule us or, or affect us. Yeah, we decide how much psychological or emotional damage we want to incur, right? Based on the tools to avoid it or if, if we have that choice, I guess.

That this— I was talking to this, um, we always have a choice. Yeah, choice. Yeah, but we've got a choice as, as adults. Do you know to what extent do our kids have the choice to—

I don't know, not really. They don't have much. They don't have the tools. Yeah, that's the— that's, that's called abuse.

Yeah. Yeah. So how— what, what tools do we give them? How do we empower them in this regard?

You know, honestly, the one, the only one that I know that is kind of foolproof and works is, is the faith one, you know. So, um, we can, you know, because you have to have some kind of, uh, level of, uh, knowledge, intellect to deal with some of this stuff. I think as a young child, you don't really have that. Um, you're not— you shouldn't have that. Especially if it's, you know, physical or sexual abuse. I mean, that's, that's just, you know, you're really doing a, you know, harming the kid, obviously abusing. So faith will be the only thing. And I don't know how much faith a young child or even a teenager can have. So I think that's— yeah.

Yeah.

I think hitting on the challenges.

Yeah. One of the things that's been coming up for me recently, it is a, is an idea based on something that an American business guru, leadership guru, came up with a while ago. So this is the guy, he's Jim something, Jim Collins. He wrote a book called Good to Great.

Yeah.

And what one of the things that he says is Strategy eats— no, culture eats strategy for breakfast.

Yeah.

And I was thinking about that with regard to what I've learned from doing the podcast, interviewing the people that I've done, and to draw those things together and put them in the words that you're talking about.

Right.

I would say that faith eats psychology for breakfast.

Faith eats psychology for breakfast.

Yeah.

So yeah, that makes sense. Yes.

Yeah. Um, so the idea that I'm trying to get at is the potency in terms of what helps us thrive, what helps us heal from trauma. Uh, faith is far more potent and powerful a source. It kind of trumps, to use a word that people might not like me using, it trumps psychology.

Right. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Why do you think that is? It's a tough question to ask somebody that I've just foisted it onto, but can you talk around that, your perspective?

Yeah, it's, you know, most of the— I don't know, I'm not sure I know the answer to that question. I didn't think about it.

Yeah, sure.

So I, as I'm thinking about it while you were thinking about it, the answer, the answer I think would be that faith takes us out of ourselves and, and basically all we're really looking for is a shift in perspective. So if we can shift our perspective, we've shifted the psychological direction. You know, if we're going towards a negative, the other thing I would say is that anytime that some negative thought comes in my mind, for me personally, I'm caught. I immediately dismiss it. I don't let it grow. I don't give power to it because one negative thought will build on another negative thought will build on another negative outcome, another negative outcome. And then before I know it, I'm looking at 100 different, you know, impossible things that happen. You know, a good friend of mine told me one time, he said, you know, I've suffered 100 tragedies and only 2 of them actually happened. Yeah, that sums it up.

Yeah, I, I heard an idea recently that fits with that, um, and it's the— the idea is the second thought. Right. So, so we have, we have no kind of power over the— or, or say or anything, or control in terms of the first thought.

Yeah.

But we can choose the second thought, and, and, and, and that second thought is the degree to which we take the first thought on board. Yeah, so it's the same. It's saying— kind of sounds like a similar thing to what you're saying. You're just like dismissing it. Yeah, yeah.

If we all were judged or acted on our first thought, we'd probably all be in jail.

So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the one. Yeah. Um, so I, I think the— for me, the, the power of the faith— I— the power of faith or the part of faith over psychology. It's— you talked about it being bigger than ourselves. And psych— well, how shall I put this? We're not our psychology, right? It— like, psychology and trauma to me seem like blankets that that obscure us, right? The fundamental thing is if we're in the middle of— I had a— I told you because Matthew's in— you're West Coast, aren't you? No, Florida?

Florida, yes.

I was in Florida a couple of weeks ago and I had this idea popped into my head that well, the question popped into my head, where are my car keys, right? So I was in the hotel room in Florida and I was, I went to my jacket and it was the jacket that I'd put up in the overhead parcel thing in the plane and I went into the pockets and I thought, there's no keys there and I thought, I'm sure I put the key in my jacket pocket and maybe it's fallen out, right, in the compartment, the luggage compartment. So next I went into the— next I went to this little bag that I take when I go traveling, and I was going through it. It's got a gazillion pockets and I couldn't find the keys anywhere, and I was into a full-on meltdown, full-on meltdown, like a— almost like a panic attack. I'm thinking, well, when I fly back from Florida to Manchester, my wife's gonna have to come pick me up, or she's gonna have to bring the spare car keys, right, um, over. She's going to meet me. Is the battery in the remote control, you know, the blipper for the, for the alarm in that, in that key fob, is that Is that flat or is that? So I was completely lost in this panic, right? And it—that's what trauma feels like. We—we are lost in our trauma. We're lost in—lost in the whole experience of it. We—we—we're hidden. We're buried. We're lost. We can't. we're concealed, right, um, in, in the middle of that thing going on, right? And it— in that space, we have no, we have no choice about— yeah, it, it, it, our, our psychology's run away with us. It's kidnapped us, right?

Exactly.

So the biggest— for me, the biggest thing that we can see is a separation between how we feel. Yeah. And our trauma and who we are. So when I say trauma is a toxic cocktail of fear, shame, and, uh, fear, shame, and anger, fear, shame, and terror, but we're the glass, not the cocktail. I'm, I'm separating who we are from the trauma that we feel.

Simple way of putting it is feelings aren't facts, right? So, you know, just because I feel something doesn't mean it's the— it's really what's happening. That reality. Yeah, that's why, that's why we need other people to talk to about it, to check it and say, hey, am I thinking straight here or not? And that's where the trust, you know, the— with the— that's the one unfortunate things about a foster kid or even an adoptive kid is that they don't really have those trusting relationships. So they've only— they're creating their own reality, and that's a— that can be a real dangerous place to be.

Yeah. So trust and faith would be the fundamental building blocks that, that, um, we're putting, uh, or scaffolding, the fundamental building blocks, the scaffolding to help our, uh, help our kids thrive.

You're like, most foster kids and adoptive kids trust the system.

Well, yeah, right. It, I guess it's, we're looking at the trusting the The, the family system, the family system, the broader welfare system.

The actions that are being taken, I mean, the actions that are being taken, is that fostering trust in the system?

Yeah.

And how they're being managed, is that really achieving the goal?

Yeah. And are, are we fostering trust? Uh, are we as parents fostering trust Amongst our kids, with our kids.

Yeah, right, exactly. The main— the worst thing that can happen, you know, I always tell my— I kind of jokingly talk to people and say our parent— our kids would be perfect if it wasn't for their parents.

Yeah. So if, if faith and, uh, faith and trust are fundamental building blocks for thriving, What else do you see as the key, key things that we want to imbue, that we want to create for kids?

Opportunity. You know, you have to create— you know, there has to be opportunities. Um, I think that's one of the things that really challenges foster kids and, and adoptive kids. They're put into like a system, and there's really not a lot of wiggle room for them to, to break out of that. They become part of the system, and then there's no opportunities really for them to, to really grow or have, have new thoughts or ideas, or, you know, how do you break out of that? I mean, as a parent of my own kids, I mean, I want to foster them to take chances, to take risks, to have opportunities. I mean, we spend a lot of time and money on giving my children opportunities.

Can you give us some examples of that, what you mean?

Whether it's in sports or it's in, in academia or in, you know, getting, you know, pushing them into something that they may not think they can do or that, and then they end up doing it, those kinds of things. Yeah.

Yeah. So, so it's, is that us having faith in them before they have faith in themselves?

Of course. Yeah, of course. I mean, and sometimes they fail, but that's part of the experience. You know, then we— then, you know, you push too far. You know, that's, that's part of being, uh, it's called the wisdom, you know, that's called like, you know, knowing your children and their strengths and weaknesses. Not so—

Yeah, yeah. So we're coming up on time, Matthew. Can— is there anything else that, that I—

I really, uh, appreciate the, uh, the discussion. It's quite— it's got me— it's very thought-provoking. Thank you. Yes.

Yeah, for me too. And, and, and that, that there's, there's that, that big question for me about what, what trauma is made of, right? It, it's, it seems really, it seems really big. Yeah. Another one that I had that I've kind of resolved more elegantly, I think, is what are beliefs made of? Right. What are beliefs made of?

Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right.

What would you say to that? What would you say that beliefs are made of?

I think we're, we basically, those come from people that we trust, you know, that we, you know, basic beliefs come from our upbringing. I believe the actions our parents take, the actions that other our friends or that we learn in school. Um, other, you know, as we break, get into our own, you know, adulthood or whatever, those beliefs need to be challenged. Um, yeah, I think too many of us get lazy. We become lazy and, and then we become hardened because our ego protects our beliefs. Because if our beliefs are wrong, that means we, then we somehow, maybe we challenge ourselves that we're wrong. Or that for some reason we could be, um, you know, not worth— worthless, I guess. Maybe. Yeah, we go to the extremes to protect those beliefs. And a lot— that's— I mean, just turn on the news, you'll see it night and day.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Thanks a lot, Matthew.

Have a good day.

Thanks a lot. Thanks, listeners. Bye-bye.