Fundamental Wholeness

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Doctors podcast. Uh, today I'm delighted to be joined by Donna, Donna Pope, um, back on the show, right? An absolute, uh, a pleasure to spend time with. Uh, I'm looking forward to it. It's always fun, right? So, um, we're gonna, we're gonna do this slightly differently, uh, because we're, we're doing this for video as well. Listeners. And so I'm going to put some slides up, but obviously, you know, like, if you want to, there's going to be links, links to the YouTube. So if you want to follow on with the slides, I'll put the slides as a download and all that sort of stuff as well. But before I do that, I just need to, I just need to get the video, the presentation going here. Uh, okay, what am I doing? Present. Um, full screen. And we're there, right? So today we're going to talk about fundamental wholeness. So I've created some slides, and this is really on the back of something that Donna and I feel really, really passionate about. Which is thriving despite trauma, right? Thriving despite trauma. And what, what we mean by fundamental wholeness is that underneath our trauma, we are fundamentally whole. It's just sometimes that's hard to see, and it's very hard to see If nobody's told us about fundamental wholeness, right? If, if we've been in this space where it's just trauma all the way, we probably haven't been told that there's a part of us that's intact, that's as good as new underneath that, that trauma. So that might sound a little bit challenging that's why we're here today to talk about it so that it makes sense. Because we live in this world that's become trauma obsessed, right? And Donna and I want to do something about that.

Yeah, we do. Because one of the challenges is Everybody knows that there's trauma. Sometimes we deny it and we don't want people to deny that there's trauma, but we want to recognize that that's not the only element of their personality or their experience. And so how do we get back to this, as you called it, fundamental wholeness, which is inside of all of us, but sometimes we forget that it's there.

Yeah, we do forget it. And it's kind of hidden.

Right.

So we're bringing the fundamental wholeness out into the open. And I wanted to start with a really great quote from— this is a lady who was on the podcast a while ago called Joanna Abruscato. She's a foster mum. She's an adoptive mum. And she often adopts— sorry, she often fosters older teenage kids. Now, Joanna has had a tough time herself. So she's definitely not a trauma denier. She went through 13 years of tough, tough stuff from her husband who was— well, she was suffering from domestic violence and she was lucky to get out of that household alive. So she's definitely not a trauma denier. But this question is something that she asks the the, the teenagers that, um, that she's fostering. Are you going to succumb to the trauma or rise above it, right? So this is a, a hell of an empowering choice that she's giving these young, young ladies. Are you gonna succumb to the trauma? Are you gonna rise above it? It's really, really powerful and a very, a very bold, a very bold question. Um, and it's about choice here. We're, we're talking about a choice. We're not, as Donna says, right, we're not denying trauma. As Joanna says, she's not denying trauma. What we're just, we're saying is, are we going to succumb to it or are we going to rise above it? And it's, uh, it's a challenging question. It's a bold question. Um, but a, a big question in terms of our own empowerment, right, Donna?

Exactly, exactly. And it makes a big difference to where we're going to end up in our lives, because if we, if we succumb to it, then we become a victim for the whole rest of our lives. And none of us want to be victims. Um, we want to be able to move forward in, in a very dramatic Positive way. Yeah.

So we're sowing some seeds here, and, and this is, this is big, big stuff that we're talking about, and intentionally so, right? We, we're, we're being big, we're being bold, we're being brave, we're, we're challenging a lot of what's going on, uh, and that, that, that, that needs, uh, that, that needs challenging, this, this trauma obsession that we're, that, uh, we're seeing, um, has, uh, yeah, it needs challenging. So, um, this is, this is a picture of me at like 18 months old and swimming.

Yeah.

With, with, with my, with my mum, right? Um, I just got off the phone to her. She, she's 88. I, I'm, I'm 59. This is, uh, this is the summer of 1969 and Uh, look, just look at my, uh, look at my face and look at my mum's face, right?

There's great happiness.

There's great happiness, right? Somebody said to me for a while ago, uh, babies don't need therapy, right? Like, little Simon here is loving, is loving the pool. He's a water baby. And 59 years on, I'm still a water baby. I swim like 5, 6 times a week, right? But the, the look of love on my mum's face, right? So Um, that, that— So something's happened, you know, something happens, right? This, this trauma thing comes along. And, um, and for, for me, it was hidden. I wasn't, I wasn't conscious of any, uh, trauma, um, adoption trauma, until, till the 4th of January 2007, when I found out that my teddy bear was from my birth mother. And this brought up some stuff that, uh, I've been exploring and looking to heal, uh, ever since, right? Um, and along the way, I— one of the most profound insights, healing moments, epiphanies was getting my adoption file, uh, and, uh, in, in 2015, and a letter from my from my birth mother about, about the, the, the teddy bear when it became clear. I'd previously thought that the, the teddy bear was a, uh, well, not previously, I thought for a, a few minutes that the teddy bear was a consolation prize. And, uh, when I got my adoption file and found this letter in there from my birth mother to the adoption social worker about the teddy bear, that, that changed everything for me, or one of those moments that changed every— everything for me. As I, as I read about my birth mother's pain, I felt her love for me, and I, I, I connected deeply with, with her. And I, I realized that this idea that the teddy was a consolation prize couldn't that idea that I'd held for a couple of minutes couldn't have been further from the truth, right? The teddy bear was an absolute symbol of her love. And why I'm talking a little bit about my story is that I think it kind of— it's a micro version of what's gone on in society. So Um, yeah, uh, another profound moment. Sorry, I got my sequences of slides slightly out. So, um, this, this was a very profound moment for me from just last year, um, when a, a teacher of mine, a mentor of mine— I was on a retreat with him and there's 120 of us, and I asked a question about trauma. And he said to me, you were never traumatized, Simon. And he said— but I'm, I'm emphasizing the you, right? Because he's talking about that whole me, the, the, the, the, the whole me, the uppercase, the uppercase S Simon, the uppercase self, Simon, the, the, the true self, the unwounded self that's there underneath the, the, the, uh, the trauma. Um, so this was, this was last year. You were never traumatized, Simon. And, and we're going to dig into that a little bit, a little bit more. Um, so the— until 1993, in the adoption space, it, it was rainbows and, and, and unicorns. We were trauma blind until 1993. So I was trauma blind as well. I was blind to my trauma until the age of 40 when the trauma that was subconscious became conscious, to do with the teddy bear, right? So I was trauma blind, and as a world, we were trauma blind to adoption trauma until 1993. When the Primal Wound book came out. So The Primal Wound, it's a book about relinquishment trauma. It's written by an American MD, a medical doctor who then became a psychologist as well, I think. She had 2 daughters. One was her biological daughter, one was her adopted daughter. She was trying to understand the difference between the 2. And she wrote this seminal work called The Primal Wound, and it's, it's, it's her theory about relinquishment trauma. So this is 1993, um, and we get to a point now in, in 2026. So what's that, um, 26 plus 7, that's 30, 33 years on. We, we've, we've got to this point where we've become, we've become trauma obsessed, uh, and it seems to be trauma all the way. And this whole week, none of us seeing this wholeness, or very few of us are seeing this wholeness. People aren't talking about that. What do you make of that, Donna?

No, I totally agree with you. And it has been quite a shift that with people Ignoring that there is trauma and the primal wound brought that to people's attention, but then going to the point that they just can't see any other thing but the trauma. And so now we become victims to the trauma. Yeah, we need to do something different.

Indeed. So the reason that we, we, we, we need to do something different is so many people have become identified with their trauma.

trauma.

So, uh, there's an adoptee, an adoptive parent, uh, online who puts out messages that say— headlines that says, I am trauma. So that, that, that— these are people that are identifying with the trauma. There's, there's no separation between who they are and the trauma that they feel. So I want to just say this. I don't think I can put it any clearer. I put it in, in, in 5 words, right? We are not our trauma. This, this talk that we're doing today, it, it's about disidentifying from our trauma, seeing that there's a difference between the, the trauma that we feel and who we essentially are. It's separating our emotions. When we think of trauma, we think of insecurity, fear, terror, anger, all these. You know, I— when my trauma became conscious, I— when I became conscious of my trauma, it was anger that was presenting. And as I looked back, I could see that there were incidents I'd had quite a few angry incidents of anger, instance of anger. Are they down to adoption trauma, or are they just part of being a guy? I don't know, and we'll never know. However, the trauma that we feel is not who we are. Um, I want to get this really clear in that, like, this You know, feelings are not identity. Feelings are, are not identity. And we get them, we get them confused, right? We say, we say, I, I am scared, when what we actually mean is I am feeling scared. The, the word feeling kind of drops out of the sentence, and, and we, we identify with our feelings. And perhaps that's why we identify with our trauma. But Donna's, uh, you're, you're a Would you call it counselor? You're a psychologist. You know this stuff, right?

Therapist. For sure. But sometimes our feelings become so strong that to not believe that that's who we are at this particular moment, we just can't seem to separate us. I mean, we all know times when we've had a really, really bad day and we think, This is how life is. And oftentimes people will have suicidal feelings because they don't feel that it's ever going to change, that there's anything different. Because it seems like that's all we are. So how do we separate ourselves from those feelings?

Yeah. So we've become trauma-focused, and what we focus on gets bigger, right? Donna, for sure. Yeah. Um, so let's focus on thriving. Let's focus on thriving. You know, um, I've got this little mantra, 6-word mantra, right? Trauma-informed, wholeness-aware— that's what we're talking about today, a lot about wholeness— and thriving-obsessed. Let's, let's focus on thriving. Let's, let's obsess on thriving. That's the point of the Thriving Adoptees podcast, right? We interview people about thriving and what they've learned about thriving. We focus on thriving despite the trauma. Nobody's denying, just want to mention that again, not denying trauma. Because otherwise, if we focus on it, we become trauma stuck. We see a lot of trauma dumping online, and there's this trauma bonding. We connect with new people. And that's great, connecting with new people. But that trauma bonding can keep us stuck to our trauma. The validation is sticking, is sticky, right? So when you're working with people, Donna, you're going to— with a therapist hat on, You're going to help people process their emotions so that their emotions are kind of integrated with them or let go. How would you explain that? What does that mean?

No, one way to think of it physiologically is that we have an amygdala in our brain. And when we're always functioning from the amygdala, meaning the emotional area of our brain, where everything seems real in the emotional area, we can't see beyond it. And so one of the challenges is to help people move from the amygdala to the prefrontal cortex, meaning the area of the brain that can look, can integrate other aspects of your life and make decisions and see things from a different perspective. And so one of the challenges that we have is Getting people to move from the emotion to the thought process, um, and, and be able to see things differently. And there's ways to do that. Uh, one of them is have them talk through it. Another one is to write it and, and, and so that they actually think about the process of writing. Those are things that will help them move. And so they're not quite so stuck, but they have to be willing to do that.

Yeah. So you're talking about creating, uh, uh, uh, some space between the, the, the trauma that we feel and the essence of who we are. Is that correct?

Yeah, for sure.

So I, I know I was thinking about, you know, when, uh, we, we, you know, if we're in the middle of the argument with some— in the middle of— with, uh, middle— and we say things that we don't mean in that middle of the, the middle of the argument, and then we come back to it later and we say, I'm sorry that I said those things, right? So the That's when we're in that— the amygdala is when we're in the middle of the argument.

Well, and lots of hormones. That would be an adrenaline rush that we feel that. And so the challenge then is to kind of let those things subside and then come back. And those are the acute periods of time. But with the trauma that you're talking about here, that is a far more chronic challenge. It just stays there simmering below the surface all the time. And how do we address that?

Yeah. So you're talking about talking about it, you're talking about journaling, talking about therapy, listening to podcasts, reading books, watching video, whatever it works, what the strategy that works for us that allows us to um, increase the gap between those, those over— uh, overriding emotions and, and the, the calm underneath them.

And, and 2 things that are, are helpful to getting unstuck, like you've— you're talking about there, we always heal through relationships. And so the challenge is we can become bonded through trauma, but what we want to do is become healed through healthier relationships. And we can heal through those relationships. There's other things like EMDR, and because we know that there's a somatic nature to this trauma, and the somatic nature needs to be addressed as well.

Yeah. And that's one of the themes that's come back to me time and time again on over 680-odd episodes of the podcast is that uh, that, that somatic, including EMDR, the somatic and EMDR kind of therapies, those modalities— I think that's the jargon, isn't it— that they are particularly powerful for pre-verbal trauma. Um, and so talking about it can give us some distance, but the real powerful stuff happens in, in other ways, right? Like the somatic approach.

Yeah.

And I, I, I did, uh, about 18 months of somatic experiencing, like once a month, to, um, year, year before last and the year before that, um, because I wanted to clean, clean out. I think it's really important for me to be as, as, as clean as I can doing the job that I do. Um, so getting, getting unstuck. Here's a— talking about somatic, Peter Levine is a a somatic therapist. He has created his own process, somatic process. The lady that I worked with trained with somebody that trained with Peter Levine. And so here's the unstuckness, right? Here's, here's the message of hope. Trauma is a fact of life, but it's not a life sentence. Trauma is a fact of life, but it's not a life sentence. So a fact of life. We've all got trauma of some form, but it's not a life sentence. That's what Peter Levine says. So the big question for me really is, what sets us free? What sets us free? What ends that life sentence? Um, and it, it's about shit. It's about shifts in, in our feelings. Donna, how would you—

No, I, I'm anxious to have you keep going.

Okay.

And see where this goes.

Yeah. Um, for me, it's about insights. Um, people talk about time being the greatest healer, but I, I think if there's no if there's no change over that time, there's no healing. So healing is about change, and change are about— change about insights. And sometimes—

That's such a fun word, insights. Insights inside you. So you see things differently inside. No, I like that.

Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a change of thought. It's a, it's a, a new idea. It's a new feeling. It's like, so there's, there's, there's insights. Some people use the word, um, epiphanies. So insights, epiphanies, there's, there's depth here, right? So an insight might be something that we see in our head. But we, uh, then we might have a change of, of heart. We might call that an, an epiphany, and that, that's deeper, right? And then we have this change, like a change of experience. So me, the, the reason that I explained reading this letter from my birth mother is because it was the most profound insight slash epiphany moment that I've had over the last 19 years, right? It was a whole body experience. I was crying, crying my eyes out. And then it was like an alchemy where when the— you know, alchemy is when lead becomes gold. It was like alchemy because the the, the feeling for her, the feeling of her pain became feeling her love for me.

Mm-hmm.

So the, the pain became love in the same way as alchemy turns a, uh, turns lead into gold. And, and that was a really, really profound insight. It's like an epiphany moment. And I've had Loads of those over the time. So when, when, um, I, I didn't think that I could get my wholeness more profoundly when I asked that question of Rupert Spira last, last year about trauma, and he said, you were never traumatized, Simon. He went on to— he wasn't gaslighting me, he was talking about Essential, uppercase S, Simon. Whole Simon, the Simon that's whole underneath the trauma. So that, that insight landed deeper and deeper and deeper. And that's the thing about insights, that, um, uh, the people, you know, people say the penny dropped, right? The penny dropped. Well, the insight— some, some pennies just keep on dropping. They keep on dropping and dropping. There's no, there's no bottom. to this, to this well, right? Um, um, so the, the, the biggest insight that we can have is seeing we are whole. It— the, uh, those watching this on a video will be able to see the face, but, um, there's a— there's, there's this a young woman on, um, on, on the, on the screen. She is having a wow moment, right? Seeing, seeing we are whole. What? I'm whole despite my trauma?

It—

this is a profound, a surprising moment for, for us, right? We've heard all this story of brokenness, um, and, uh, thinking that we're less than, thinking that we are primarily wounded. Uh, I, I came up with a, a, um, we talked about fundamental wholeness. I also had another word, another phrase a few months ago: primordial wholeness. Primordial wholeness. Fundamental wholeness.

Primordial wound.

Yeah, the primordial wound. The primordial wholeness is underneath the primal wound. It's more essential. It's closer to the essence of who we are. Another metaphor that I came up with for this is like, so when we learned to drive, Donna, there weren't— cars didn't have crumple zones, did they? Right. So people, a lot of people—

Died.

Yeah, a lot of people died.

Right.

So if we now— cars have got crumple zones, which means the cabin space inside the cabin is a safer place to be. So it's almost like our psychological trauma, right, is the crumple zone, but the cabin that we're sitting in is safe and complete. And the impact of the crash has been contained by the crumple zone, and, and we're safe in that. That's another way of thinking about this, this, um, fundamental wholeness, right? So an insight, seeing that we are whole, right? And then feeling whole, feeling our wholeness.

And a deep— we need the L in there.

Oh yeah, yeah, I put feeing, feeing whole.

Yeah, feeling whole, feeling whole, feeling whole, right?

Feeling well spotted. Um, I will Change that on there, on the slides. So it's one thing to see our wholeness, it's another thing to feel our wholeness, and then the next stage after that, the feeling wholeness, is, is to know that we are whole, right? Knowing— Donna was talking about the somatic piece, uh, earlier on, like knowing we are whole. So knowing in every fiber of our body that, that we are whole, right? So seeing that we're whole, feeling whole, and knowing that we're whole. So this keeps on deepening and deepening and deepening. Um, as we say, right, we started off with the, the, the, the phrase fundamentally whole, fundamentally whole. Seeing our fundamental whole, feeling that we're fundamentally whole, knowing it in in, in, in every bone that we're fundamentally whole and living our lives from that wholeness. So we live— we're, we're living from our wholeness. We're not living from our trauma, right? We're living from our wholeness. And, and that alignment process just keeps on getting deeper and better the, the more clearly that we can see, feel, and know our homes. So what, what do we mean by whole, right? We've been bandying this word around, right? So intact, right? Intact, like the, the cabin space of the car that hasn't been, um, hasn't been disturbed. Complete— we're not going outside into, into the world thinking that we need others to complete us, right? So we're, we're not desperate for other people's, um, affections or, uh, company or, or, or their love. We're, we're not seeking love outside the world. We're not seeking love outside the world. We're expressing our love into the world, as my mentor Richard— sorry, Rupert Spira would say. We're whole. We're unharmed. The, uh, that I was talking to, swapping emails with an adoptee earlier in this week, saying like she was talking about trauma tainting us. Well, it, it doesn't taint us. We are unharmed underneath that, that trauma, and, and we are enough, right? We're, we're enough. We're perfect just as we are underneath the trauma. We're saying that trauma hasn't damaged our essence. What do you make of that, Donna?

No, I love it. I love it. How do we stay— I think of your idea of a rock. And, you know, we can be a rock. Now, The challenge is how do we stay part of the world and connected with people while still at the same time maintaining who we are underneath? That car driving has an outward part that hits against stuff, but how do we stay safe in between?

Yeah. Yeah. So Donna mentioned the rock. So my My metaphor for trauma rather than the primal wound is the kids' game rock-paper-scissors, right? So who we truly are, our essence, is the rock. Nancy Verey would say that scissors were the cause of the— like scissors or a knife is going to cause the primal wound, right? But we know in the kids' game that the rock beats the scissors because the scissors aren't sharp enough to cut into the rock. So I'm saying that the scissors are the incorrect metaphor for the trauma. The correct metaphor for the trauma is the paper. So the paper trauma— the paper hides the rock. Trauma hides us. It doesn't harm us, right? So this— what, what we're saying, we talked about insights earlier on, like a revelation, right? Another word for an insight is a revelation. So I, I had a revelation, and the revelation that we're talking about here is the fact that trauma hides us. It doesn't harm us. Trauma is a concealer, right? It's a, it's a concealer. It's not—

it doesn't—

it conceals us. It doesn't cut us. So the, the— in the game, the paper wins until— right, this is where the metaphor kind of runs out— until we unfold the paper back and we, we reveal the uppercase S, whole Simon, or whole one of us. is revealed underneath the trauma that has hidden it. And we, we're talking here about creating a bigger and bigger gap between the essence of who we are, the rock, and the trauma that we feel. And the, the more space that we can open up between our essence and our— and the trauma that we feel, the, the more we can go out into the world and, uh, and, and heal in relationships like Donna's talking about. But we're, we're expressing our love rather than seeking our, our love, and we're not, um, we're not seeking solace in, um, in shopping, drugs, alcohol, whatever it is. So trauma hides us. It doesn't harm us. And it's not just me saying this stuff, right? So Richard Schwartz—we talked about Peter Levine earlier on. Richard Schwartz, PhD—he's created a system called Internal Family. He's got Internal Family Systems Model, and the his kind of seminal book is called the. No bad, no bad parts. Um, so what, what Richard says is that the trauma is in the parts, not the whole. So he calls, he, he calls the whole the uppercase S, Self. And, uh, our metaphor for this, my metaphor for this, is the, is the cheese holder on Um, on Trivial Pursuits, right? So people have played— you played Trivial Pursuits, Donna? You played that?

I haven't, and so I was trying to think of what you were doing. Yeah, okay, go ahead.

So, uh, Trivial Pursuits is a board game, okay? And each player gets a cheese holder, right? Um, so this cheese holder is a little piece of plastic with 6 with the space for 6, 6 cheeses in it. And you go around the board and you, uh, you— the, the, the aim of the game is to, uh, fill your— fill your cheeses, fill your 6 cheeses into your cheese holder by answering questions correctly. And so what, what, uh, Richard— how this translates to Richard Schwartz— trauma is in the past, not the whole. So the whole is the cheese holder that's got space for 6 parts, and the, uh, the cheeses are, are where are the parts, and that's where the, the trauma is. So here we're talking about separating the essence of who we are, um, from, uh, the, the trauma that is held in our, in our parts. And what I mean by the parts from an adoption perspective, that might be me the, the, the, the first night I'm away from my birth mother. So, um, and, and I'm— and there's some trauma, uh, there's, there's some trauma, there's a traumatic event that happens at that relinquishment point, at that separation point. So that's what the, the part is. And, and that, um, so for me, another part might be the, you know, when I was, when I, when I was, uh, bullied on, on Scout camp and the emotional stuff that I went through, that might be another part of me. So the traumas in the parts that are associated with the different events, the traumatic events that happen, and the whole is not damaged by those parts. It's not traumatized by the parts. Once we've separated the trauma that we feel from the essence of who we truly are. Um, looking at another guy called— another expert in the trauma field, um, Gabor Maté. So his, his contribution for, for me into the trauma space is, you know, that we have this— there's this hangover that, that, that one of the hangovers from that adoptees have from the relinquishment is this feeling that we're not good enough. And, and we see that as a, as a, as a feeling. Gabramotti contends that that's actually, uh, that's actually a belief, and rather than a, rather than a feeling. It's— we get, we get confused about beliefs and And feelings, and the the game changer for me there is that it's it's it's now impossible to change a feeling. It is far more possible to change a belief. We can put a we can put a belief under a microscope, and we can see is is this true? Is this true? Right.

So.

For, for me, I had that realization about my birth mother. You know, she didn't love me enough to keep me. That was a belief in, in that seminal moment of, of mine when I had that breakdown to breakthrough reading a letter from her. I realized that the belief that she didn't love me enough to keep me was completely untrue. I couldn't have been further from the truth. So opening up to this idea that feeling not good enough is actually believing not good enough is far more empowering because we can change beliefs more easily, or beliefs can be changed. Beliefs are changed through an insight. Donna, um, what do you think?

That's where that idea of insights can come in. So if we believe something, we think something is hard, and we push on it and it's not hard, it's soft. So that insight, so we, we compare what we believe with maybe the reality of it, and then that changes that belief. And so that's where the insight, and then we feel differently as a result of changing our belief.

Yes. And one of the fascinating points for me is how beliefs, beliefs change. And beliefs change through insight. That, that insights do, do the hard work. So we're going out there in, into the world, we're, we're looking at our past through therapy, or we're listening to a podcast with Donna and Simon, or watching a video, whatever, right? We're, we're, we're, we're, we're hanging out at the bus stop for insights, right? So we're, we're putting our ourselves into places where we're— where there's going to be a shift in our— shift in our belief. But it's the insight that does the work. We can't— I wish we could make the beliefs change, but we can't. It's the insights that cause the beliefs to change, the epiphanies that lead us to a change in our perspective. Um, there's a Lots and lots of different words for insights. We call them aha moments. Aha! I see things differently, or a new idea came to us out of the new idea comes to us out of the blue. Something that we thought was true is shown to be untrue. It's shown to be false. So insights are what changes our beliefs, and what you're doing here. Listeners, viewers, you are putting yourselves. You're putting. You're hanging out in in in the in the place for for insights. So big stuff. Big stuff. So we're back to the we we're going we we're going back to the trauma to look at a the the storm here, right? So. Um, for those people listening, it— I've got a picture of a storm up on the, on the screen, right? So if we, we look at trauma as a, trauma as a storm, okay? So you've got the— people talk a lot about loss and grief in, uh, in a, in adoption. So I think of the grief of the, the, the grief of, of tears. And the torrents of, um, the torrents of our tears and the rain. I think about that moment reading this letter from my birth mum, and I'm feeling all— I'm feeling the grief, I'm feeling her grief, I'm feeling my grief. People talk about this thing, what do they call it, um, disenfranchised grief. Is that— you heard that phrase, Donna?

Yeah.

Can, um, can you tell us what that is? What disenfranchisement?

I'm gonna let you tell us what it is.

Um, I, I think it's grief that's not recognized by society. I think that's, I think that's what it's not, it's not understood, it's not recognized. Um, so we're back to that kind of that trauma-blind place, right? So, um, the, the world was unaware, the world was blind to this trauma. I think disenfranchised grief is about that. So back to the storm, right? The storm, rain, tears, it's a water metaphor here, right? Think of thunder in the storm. Think of anger like booming, booming thunder and anger and injustice, right? She didn't love me enough to keep me. Thinking of that anger coming out of me in that moment. And we also think of the crackle of lightning, like the fear and the terror and the separation I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about that. Was I like this on my first night away from my birth mother? Was I scared? My birth mother actually had to give me away twice, so I was in short-term foster care, and then she collected me from short-term foster care and took me to the adoption council, the adoption agency at that time. So I don't know what— I don't know what I was like. We have— me and my wife have dogs, and I— we've had dogs that cry on the first night away from their mother, and I think, was I like that? And we've got no memory of it. And I think one of the challenges with this pre-verbal, pre— what's it say? Precognitive memory, pre-memory trauma is— we don't know the size of it, so we can make a mountain out of a molehill or a molehill out of a mountain because we have no idea what this pre-verbal trauma was, was like. And that makes it tricky, especially for creative people, right? Um, we can really go to, go to town and we, uh, so we have no clue. Anyway, so trauma is a storm. But as we know, like um, traumas. Storms pass, right? Storms pass. This, they say in the Bible, this too shall pass. Um, and, and when, when the storm, when the storm passes, eventually where the, the, the blue sky is, it, it, it is, is revealed. Um, and—

Oh my God.

Calm and peace and quiet and openness, tranquility, right? So storms come and go. What do they come and go in? They come and go in the sky. Trauma comes and goes. What does it come and go in? It comes and goes in us. So we're presenting another metaphor here for who we truly are, who we truly are as the sky, right? As the sky. And the sky isn't wounded. By the storm. It's not tainted by the storm. It's pristine, right? After the storm's gone, it's pristine. The, the trauma doesn't— the trauma doesn't leave any— doesn't taint the sky. It doesn't leave any residual. Residual. There's no— there's no— there's, there's, there's no residue. There's no res— there's, there's no residue of the, of the storm. And so this is a, it's a, this is a Buddhist metaphor, uh, listeners and viewers, that I've just taken to a, a, a far extreme. I'm not, I'm not a Christian, I'm not a Buddhist either. I just pull on the metaphors that they, that this, but this really works because it, it's true, right? We are the space in which our feelings come and go. They, they come, they come and go. Feelings come and go. We're left, we're left behind. And the clearer that we can see this, the clearer that we can see that this, that the storm hasn't damaged us, the less scared we are when, when the, when the trauma comes back. This is— I, I'm saying that we Our essence, our wholeness, our fundamental wholeness is trauma-free. I'm not saying that trauma won't rear its ugly head, uh, again. I'm saying that we are fundamentally whole. The sky isn't damaged by the storm.

Mhm.

And I think that's the last slide.

Peace and happiness is the nature of your being. Yeah. And so the storm that we're feeling oftentimes isn't the nature of our being. It's a temporary thing that we're feeling. But sometimes it can feel like it goes on and on and on forever.

It can. Storms come and go. Storms come and go. Um, what Rupert Spira is pointing to is, is, uh, the nature of our essence. The nature, our essence, the, uh, the constant, right? So weather changes, but the sky is constant. Trauma comes and goes, but we're the constant factor here. Uh, rain clouds are intermittent, we, we are forever. Or, uh, you know, the Thriving Adoptees logo is a diamond, right? So diamonds are forever. So, um, mixing my metaphors here, peace and happiness is the nature, uh, of, of, of your being. That we, we are the— we are the sky, we are not the storm.

What's so interesting about this is Um, there are many people that may be watching this that, that don't agree with you, that may say, no, I feel angry, I feel frustrated, I feel lost, I feel sad, and I feel it all the time. It's not something that comes and goes. And I hear that. I, I hear it. The insight that may come with this is that it's possible. It's possible to let the storm go. It's possible to say, this isn't how I always have to feel. Now, that believing that it's possible may be the insight. Actually learning how to let things go would be more of a relationship therapy EMDR, other types of techniques that would help to learn how to let things go in order to get to the place that we now believe is possible.

Yes, totally. Totally. We're just putting it out there. We're pointing towards wholeness. Um, because we're trying to bring hope, we're trying to bring light to a, a dark world. And however much darkness that we've had, that we've been through, there's always been a pinprick of light somewhere. I guess we're just trying to increase the size of that pinprick. But if people have been listening so far, like 50 minutes in, then I guess they're still hopeful. They're already hopeful.

That there's something beyond this.

There is something beyond this. And that is fundamental wholeness. But we have to see the wholeness, feel the wholeness, and know the wholeness, and live, live from that wholeness. And I, I've summed up 19 years of learning in about 52 minutes, so it's pretty condensed.

Um, please, people, feel free to give responses back. We'd love to hear what people say about this.

Yeah, thanks a lot. Thanks, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.