Going For Growth Jenifer Jarriel and Jesse Booher

issue here is humidity.

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Doctors Podcast. Today I've not got just one guest for you, but 2 fantastic guests all the way from Texas. It's a while since I've done a 3-hander interview, so looking forward to this. Jesse Buer and Jennifer Jarrell from DePelchin down in Houston. Looking forward to this.

Great.

Excited to be here. Thank you for having us.

Yeah. So, um, I love to start with this question, right? What, what does, what does thriving mean to you? And being an English gen, okay, I've, I've got to start with Jennifer on that.

Oh, okay. You know, thriving takes, uh, the day-to-day living to a whole nother level, I think. You know, it's, uh, it's not just, you know, getting through the day. It's not just, you know, making things happen, but it's really, I think, being able to be present, to enjoy what you're doing, to feel like you're contributing on a day-to-day basis, you know, doing things that not only bring you energy but give energy to others. And so, it really is looking for all that throughout your day and having kind of that lens for your life.

Yeah.

And you have to be, I think, intentional and real purposeful about it because, you know, days can get hard, you know, and things— life happens and challenges occur. And, you know, to be able to work through that and not take it on as another, as I call, another rock to carry around or put in your bag, and then your bag just gets way too heavy and overwhelming.

Yeah, I love that. I love the expansiveness of that. Maybe we'll dive into some of the words that you mentioned there. But Jesse, please, what's your take on thriving?

Well, and first, I just want to officially on the record that as a Southern gentleman, I also would have insisted that you allow Jennifer to answer.

Thank you.

English gentleman, so that we're covering the whole range of gentlemanliness here today.

Thank you. Fantastic.

Yeah, when I think of thriving, there was a phrase that Jennifer used that was giving energy to others. And when I think about that, particularly in the context of the work that we do in child welfare here at DePelchin, so much of our industry and so much of our focus can be on helping children survive, can be on helping children establish baseline levels of safety. But I think that we lose sight of the fact that the calling of our work is really to help children and families thrive. It is to help them grow. It is to help them heal. It is to help, it is to help them do things they never thought they would be able to do based on the circumstances that they found themselves in when they, when they came to us for help. So a little more narrow than Jennifer's, but I think that, that what the The foundation that she described and she laid is something that we really try to infuse into the work that we do. So we don't, we don't want our work to help people simply survive and be safe. Both of those are very important, but we really want healing to occur so that thriving and growth can happen so that folks can reach their full potential.

Yeah. So one of the things that has been increasingly clear to me over the last few months is that if, if we want the kids to thrive, the parents need to be thriving. And if the parents want the parents to thrive, we, the people that support the parents, whether that's you in your roles or me doing my thing, right, me doing my role, we have to be thriving too. So what what helps you guys thrive. And I also want to make a— this gentleman stuff, right? Okay, so we're going to include it, not just this, not just people from Yorkshire, not just people from the South, from Texas, but everybody, right? We're all being— everybody's lovely and polite on the show. It's very much a family show, so we're not going to exclude anybody in terms of their geography and their politeness.

Absolutely not.

So let's stay with you this time, Jesse. What is it that helps you thrive so that you can help the people that you support thrive?

Yeah, Jennifer's smiling because I am going to give one silly answer to this question, but I'll wait. I'll save the silly answer for the end. For me, there's really 3 ways that I try to ensure that I'm thriving as such. And so that I can, again, to use some, you know, words that Jennifer used, that I can give energy to others and be my best self in both work and in the personal setting. I have a very close relationship with my family. I have 2 daughters and my wife. We live here in Houston. And there are certain times of the day That literally, unless there are emergencies where things are burning down or something horrific has happened that we need to be involved in, that I am unavailable to anybody outside of those 3 people. And that is pretty sacred for me. And that gives me a renewed sense of purpose and energy and grounding and humility. And I think that Having that and having that be such a foundational part of my day-to-day life certainly allows me to thrive. I think the second thing is that the environment, the working environment of DePelchen is so conducive to growth and we're silly and it's fun. And even though it's hard, And the conversations can be difficult, but there's just this kind of— I don't even know how to capture it in a word, but there's this ethos of the way in which the work is done, the way in which the conversations take place, that's so intellectually and emotionally invigorating that even when you leave the office after a hard day, you're not exhausted, you're invigorated. And so I think having that as a professional environment in which to operate is absolutely critical to thriving. And then the last one is I try really hard to focus on my own personal health. So I used to run marathons. I've pulled back on the marathon running as I've gotten a little bit older, and now I do mixed martial arts. I fight, which is what Jennifer was laughing at when she initially thought that was going to be my answer. It is an answer for sure. But I try to really keep my health at the forefront too, not only for my, for my girls, for my family, but for the work that we do. I think that without that focus on being mentally and physically healthy, I'm not sure that I could give as much of myself to the people who need it. So those are, those are my big 3.

Fantastic. And just before we move on to Jennifer, I want to just pick up on, on one of the words that you, that you mentioned in there when you're talking about the, the family. You talked about Humility. What does that mean?

Mostly that my wife, for example, is so caring and intelligent about the work that I do that she sees things that I don't, and she is constantly elevating me in a way where I think I'm, you know, doing, you know, really cool and good stuff, and she's like, well, have you thought about it this way? And I'm like, oh my gosh, no, I haven't. And then, you know, I have 2 daughters who don't care about my job at all and are, you know, constant reminders of the fact that while the work that we do is important and career is important and these things outside of the house are important, what's really important to them is, are you going to play Zingo with me? Are we going to do Candyland today? And then when they beat me in those games, which they do routinely, I am regularly reminded that I just, you know, I've got a lot to learn on the Candyland front. And yeah, it's really nice to have that kind of check on ego and that kind of check on ability. I feel very lucky to have that.

Yeah, for me, the answer was, to an extent, the answer was in the laugh at the question, right? Yes, humility is, it's far It's far nicer to be able to laugh at our mistakes than it is to beat ourselves up, right?

Sure. And honestly, you grow— I mean, we know this— you grow through mistakes. And if you aren't in a place where you can laugh at those or embrace them or use them as opportunities, I don't think you really thrive. So it's important to have that on all fronts of life.

Yeah.

So Jennifer, what's What, what helps you thrive?

I hope you talk about fighting, Jennifer, and the mixed martial arts that you do too.

No, I don't do mixed martial arts. Oh, okay. But thank you for asking about that. No, I am a woman of a mature, more mature age. So, you know, obviously health is really important. I think, you know, if you don't have your health, you don't have your energy, you don't have your ability to move around. And I'm so blessed to be able to still, you know, do what I want to do, go where I want to go, exercise daily, you know, those kinds of things. So I think, I think health is an important part or kind of a basic, you know, sort of that building block of, of thriving. You know, I come from a family of 6 or 7 sisters, and I'm 3rd from the top, as they say. And so I was somewhat of a little bit of a middle child, I guess. And so I really learned to appreciate, you know, communications and working as a team and, you know, having yourself be heard over all these other loud women and, you know, all that. And yet I also so appreciate how important, you know, having a family. And, and I think that's also what draws me to the work that we do, knowing that, you know, I think every child deserves to have whatever that, that family unit looks like. It could be singles, it could be big groups, it could be kin, it could be whatever. But, but just having that, you know, sort of family unit. And I think another part of thriving is your attitude. You know, it's like Jesse said, yes, you know, my staff, my organization humbles me every day in the work that we do. And just, you know, I'm amazed every single day how positive we are when we go about addressing some of the really hard issues. And that, you know, helps me reflect on, you know, we have a saying, you know, pick your hard because it's all hard. And, you know, how they go about doing that, how they think through issues, how they help people. And sometimes they're their partners in getting them through difficulties. Sometimes they're letting them kind of go independently and then being there as a support if needed. So it's just, you know, that's, that's all I think part of, of thriving is being in touch, you know, with yourselves physically, emotionally, mentally, and also, you know, taking care of yourself so that you can enjoy life to the fullest.

Yeah.

I mean, whatever you do.

And, and Jennifer, what, what have you, what have you learned about what helps adoptive families and, and adoptees thrive?

You know, I think, you know, first of all, you know, being in an adoptive situation is a little different, right? And you are navigating different people that have had different backgrounds. You didn't have that child at the very beginning and create that environment. for them. Oftentimes you can— there's also babies, but yet I think there's also really something about the, you know, genetics that the baby has. So again, all of it is just a little different than what it would be if you had that total— I won't say control because we never have control, but that total involvement, you know, with, with the growth of a child. So, so I think it's I think it's acknowledging that, acknowledging that we all have different perspectives. The parenting role, it can be very different depending upon that child. Nobody is the same. Being exceptionally flexible and also acknowledging and valuing that child's strengths, respecting their opinions. You know, embracing who they are and helping them. Again, we go back to the same thing, but, you know, being the best they can be. I think that's all part of, you know, how do I be with you in order for you to be the, your, your best, your best self?

Yeah. So, uh, you used that, uh, used a phrase, uh, that I really loved, uh, ex— oh, it, I loved it and I wanted to know more about it really. Exceptionally flexible. What's that about? What does that mean in the context?

There's another saying, and it's not quite as positive. It's, you know, flexible to the point of collapse. But that's not what I usually use. Exceptionally flexible means, you know, you're going to be challenged, you know, as parents or as caregivers. You know, you're going to be challenged with a little person or a teen person that is, you know, building their own identity, is having their own opinions, which don't necessarily align with yours. And, you know, so it's, it's always being able to kind of step back and say, is, you know, do I need to get to a point of difficulty to resolve this? Or do we just— let's, let's sit and be, let's be present with each other. Let's kind of talk through why you think this is important. I'll talk through why I think something else might be as important. And let's figure out if we can You know, hold hands and, you know, go through this sort of journey together.

Yeah, I was preparing for a training that I'm doing, uh, tomorrow afternoon for some agency, uh, adoption agency folks up in, uh, in, uh, well, yeah, up in the, in the north, um, in New York State. And I was thinking about what empowers us, and I, I had things like questions and insights and nice things like that, right? That's what I had before, before I went for my swim this lunchtime. But as I was thinking while I was swimming, I was thinking that it's often crises that empower us, right? We see an impend— a real crisis, it empowers, empowers us, or it, it's It becomes, it just becomes so obvious that we haven't been flexible enough, right? The change, maybe we've tried little changes and, and now it's, it's time to re-examine something at the real, that the heart of our belief systems, or, or, or our, our heart of our belief systems about how we should raise our kids, for example, in, in this regard. So, and I'm— and I was thinking, well, what, what stops us? What stops us? What stops us thriving? What disempowers us? And sometimes it can be like— and I know for myself, it can be putting my head in the sand, right? Burying my head in the sand. without knowing that I'm doing it, and then matters come to a head, and that's when we have to, that's when we have to be more flexible than we've been before, right?

I like that, and I think that the sort of exceptional flexibility that Jennifer references, it made me think of 2 things, Jennifer, as you were describing that. One is You know, the environment in which we operate, if we're going to be the best that we can be in order to support adoptive families and youth that are in these, you know, adoptive homes and foster homes, we can't— there can't be a single right way and that's it. And if you have that rigidity and, you know, Simon, as you were talking about kind of, you know, burying your head, when I do that and when I get into that mindset, it's usually because I think this is the way that it needs to be. But that might not work. And having the humility to not only acknowledge that it might not work, but then the flexibility to roll to something different is something that we really try to emphasize, not only in our work environment, but with the families that we serve. And one of the ways that we see that play out in real time is in the establishment of community. So, you know, I am not a particularly huge fan of the metaphor of workplace as a family. I don't think the workplace is a family, but I do think it's a community. And one of the things that we try to do, not only internal to our own team, but with the families that we're supporting, is build that network and build that community so that you have the opportunity to see what things are working in other families and see what isn't. Know that your experiences and your frustrations are shared and that you can infuse the work that you're doing as a parent with that flexibility, because I think without it, if you become so hyper-focused and rigid on what is going to work, you can lose sight of the idea that maybe you've kind of got to roll with the punches and change things a little bit. There's a really great book that I read when my wife was pregnant with our oldest daughter, The Gardener and the Carpenter, and it's Alison— I'm going to butcher her last name— but Gopnik, G-O-P-N-I-K. And one of the things that she talks about is this idea that parenting— and I think this is very true not only for whatever you would consider to be traditional parenting, but especially for adoptive parenting and foster parenting— that we have this idea that if we do these certain things, we will generate this certain type of child, right? That's the carpenter mentality. You measure, you build, you get a table. But that's not what it's really like. What it's more like is gardening, not carpentry. You're trying to create the right environment where your garden, your child, the adoptive youth, the family that you're building can grow and thrive. And to me, that metaphor was really, really powerful, and it's one that I see play out day to day in the work that our caseworkers do with the families that we support. I see it day to day in the families that come to us, not only for adoptive services and foster care services, but in mental health services too. We're all trying to, and hopefully, create an environment where our family and our support and the things that we put in place can thrive so that, so that our children can thrive.

Yeah. What, what are some of the things that you hear from the community Uh, in terms of what, what that gardening approach looks like?

I think really what we're hearing is a couple of things. One, there's this idea of, um, shared support. I'm trying to carry the garden metaphor through, and I'm not intelligent enough to do it, but I'll say that it's, it's really that not feeling isolated. I think there's a feeling that— there can be a feeling of isolation in the types of struggles that the families that we're serving go through. So one, we're hearing an opportunity to break down those barriers to isolation is critically important. That's one. Second is there are a lot of families that we work with across the service array that we have that need support on a basic level in order to ensure that basic needs are met. So that that safety is established, because without that safety baseline, there is no thriving. But once those— once the isolation and the safety needs are met, the next thing that we really hear a lot of is, how can I work on myself? How can I work on the issues that I have? And then how can I transfer that knowledge of, you know, the healing and thriving that I've done to the children that I— that are in my home and that I want to support? And we have a variety of different ways that we do that. I kind of— we try to meet families where they are with their particular needs, but it really is about that isolation, breaking down isolation, establishing safety, and then building upon those 2 things so that healing and growth can occur.

Okay, so I, I love a metaphor. I, I just love metaphors, and I had a bit of time to think of it, right? Good. Whilst, whilst I was Drawing on some of the things that you said. So this is more like, you know, we think of gardening as a solo activity. What you're talking about really is creating a community where people learn to garden together. That's right. And some people are ahead of us on the journey. They're better gardeners than us, or they've learned more, or they've learned by their mistakes. They've, you know, um—

And what a blessing that is too, because then And one of the things that we really try to do is that people that have gone on this journey that, that have, have more years in the, in the community garden are able to speak to those who are just starting their journey so that they can learn from what worked for them and what didn't. And maybe those lessons are applicable, maybe they're not, but that shared knowledge piece, I think, is what you're keying in on, is something that we really like to see.

Yeah. Have you got anything to add to that, Jen?

Yeah, I, you know, as I was listening, you know, and I think some of the basic items that coming forth with this is people go, you know, I should know this.

Right.

I should know how to do this, you know. And so as a result, you know, again, building that community of people with additional ideas or even, you know, not, or challenging ideas to say, hey, let's think about it this way or this, let's try something different or, You know, if you're stuck, you don't keep digging the hole, as they say, you know, let's do something different. And so, you know, sometimes it's just that, you know, getting those connections with others, with the lived experience, or with other experiences really can help, you know, kind of open up and, oh, okay, now I feel better about that. I feel better about how I can interact. You know, a lot of times in our parenting classes, you know, especially we have some specifically focused on men, on fathers. And, and a father figure could be, could be somebody else other than, other than a man. But it's, you know, it's, it's like I don't know how to— I'm not good at communicating, so I'm not good at building friendships or relationships. I don't know how that works. And, and as a result, then I can't communicate with my kids or with my significant other or wife or, you know, whoever that is working or being with them in support of these children. So I think it's all, you know, part of looking at, again, the issue holistically.

Yeah. Jesse said something about the right, the one right way to do things, that there is such a thing. And I saw that at one level, but something, a conversation that I had with a fellow adoptee actually a couple of days ago, helped me see this at a whole different level. And so I was talking about my experience with my birth father, right? And, uh, and, and, and she said, and, and I've had one conversation with him, right? And I, I didn't handle it. I didn't plan it very well. I didn't plan it at all. I didn't handle it very well, uh, and, and it, it didn't, and it didn't go very well. And as I thought about it afterwards, I thought, well, I could have handled that well, better. And but the, the other thing that came to me was I don't think even a better handling of it would have led to a good outcome, right?

Sure.

It, you know, he, he wasn't interested 58 years ago, and that the likelihood that he's changed his mind now is kind of—

Right.

And that was the experiment that I was playing with, right? It was, it was coming at it from an experiment. You know, somebody said to me, he might have changed his mind. I thought, yeah, you're right, he might have changed his mind. Let's see. And he hadn't. What, what she said to, to me, this, um, uh, this fellow Dr. Elisa, she said, uh, There's no wrong way to react.

Hmm.

And I thought, well, if there's no right way to do something, there's no wrong way to do something either. And, and that for me, tying in what you said about humility, Jesse, that, that for me kind of opened up some grace for myself.

And I think that phrase that you just said is so critical, the idea of opening up grace for yourself. And I hadn't thought about the flip side of it, and I'll tell you why. But the idea for me in communicating this to the people that we support, not only, again, not only our families, our youth, but also our staff, is that I think we get a lot— we get anxious and locked into, I have to do the single right thing, that there's one right thing that is going to get to this outcome. And that may not be— that's not the case. There's multiple different paths to get to the outcome that you want. But I had not thought about it on the flip side in the way in which you described it. And I think that can also be very freeing, at least from the burden of the anxiety that, you know, there's a single right way, and if not, it is the wrong way. I mean, that's, that's just not the reality. Everything that we deal with is far more gray and complicated than that.

Yeah.

I mean, we, we went on humility earlier on. Um, me and my wife haven't got any kids, but the sense— but I have a lot— we have a lot of friends with kids. I've come into contact professionally with a lot of parents, um, and a lot of adoptive parents. It seems to me that most parents are pretty tough on themselves.

Right.

And adoptive, foster and adoptive parents seem to take that toughness to perhaps an extra level, right? Um, what— I mean, you're nodding, so it's clearly not just me that's come to this kind of conclusion.

Certainly.

Um, what is it that's helped you, Jessie, see that humility and grace for yourself? Not you telling them how they should see grace for themselves. What's helped you see grace, give yourself grace? Because I—

Well, first of all, I'm far better at telling foster and adoptive families that they should be patient with themselves and they should be graceful and that they should— I'm far better at dishing out that advice than I am at incorporating it into my own, into my own life. Um, I think there's, there's This is— these answers are very hokey, and I apologize in advance for that. But for me, there's, there's really 2 things that I come back to when I find myself getting worked up about whatever it happens to be in the moment that is, that is working me up as a parent, things that I'm worried about or nervous about. One is, you know, before my wife and I decided to have kids, we wanted to really key in on what our core family values were. What are the things that no matter what we're doing day to day, big picture, small picture, we always come back to these 4 values that, you know, are the tenets of what we try to build our entire lives around. And it's, again, hokey and very personal to us, but it's kindness, bravery, strength, and intelligence. Those are the things that we talk about and we want to imbue all of our actions through those 4 things. And the other thing, which is far simpler on day-to-day, is that we want there to be love and laughter in our house. And so, you know, when, when I find myself again getting worked up about things like, oh my gosh, they're going to bed half an hour later than they need to, they're not going to get enough sleep, and then tomorrow morning they're going to be a mess at school, and like, you know, you just start to spiral. I try to reground myself in those, in those things, you know. Were we kind as parents today? Were our daughters kind to their friends at school? Did we do something brave? Did we exhibit strength? Were we smart? You know, did we do these— did we come back to these core 4 things? And then was this an evening where we laughed at dinner, where we had fun during bath time? And I think regrounding myself, and when I can answer yes to those things, it's like then this other stuff is— are just details. They're details along the way. Along our journey. And if I— so I guess if I can reground myself in those concepts, I find myself better able to have grace and patience with my failings as a parent. Now, I don't— again, it's super— I have a far easier time dishing out the grace and patience with yourself advice, but that's really the main way that I have found myself able to To, to give myself that, yeah, that gift.

Jennifer, have you seen the, uh, have you seen the advice that the adoptive parents further on their gardening journey, right, have you seen what they heard, what they share to, uh, to, to people starting out?

Yeah, to some extent. Yeah, I don't, I don't necessarily go deal directly with a lot of our, our parents and our children, obviously, in my position being CEO. But, you know, I do interact some with them, and I also get feedback from others who are supporting our adoptive families and parents and kiddos. So, so, so I think, you know, some of it is Knowing that, you know, that are trying to make the— as they're thinking about their child's behavior, is it because they're an adopted child and I just don't understand some of that background, or is it an age thing? Is it, you know, just one of those passages that they're going through? Am I responding appropriately, or should I know more? Or Should I, you know, should I stand back? Should I more lean in? Do I need to be, quote, the parent? You know, and then what does that really mean? You know, what, what is, quote, a parent? You know, it's a caregiver, it's a supporter, it's a sometimes rescuer to some extent, it's the fun person. It's also the, you know, strong person. And it's the person that Sometimes creates the sort of structure around them to be able for them to thrive, you know, because they can't make some of those decisions just because of age or wherever they are in their, again, in their journey. So, so I think, you know, it's, it's, it's, you know, looking at, again, the parents, looking at, you know, what they need, acknowledging, you know, I was, as we were talking, I was thinking about, you know, when a parent is tired, You're probably not going to be at your best, and you're not going to respond, and you're not going to be quite as patient as you should, quote, should be. You know, so again, always sort of managing yourself as well as sort of managing that environment, and not necessarily managing the child, but allowing that child to respond and have some room in that environment. And then when they need things, you're there.

Yeah.

We should have mentioned sleep about how we thrive. That one's important. That's a biggie.

Well, yes, sleep and water. You know, you were talking about keeping fit, Jesse, earlier on, and you were also talking about the essentials in terms of survival, you know, water, shelter, housing, and stuff like that. But I was also thinking like the hydration thing and the sleep. I was not great on Tuesday because I had too late a night on Monday, you know.

Yeah.

And I don't normally have a late night on a Monday, you know, that's unusual. So what some of the things that you were talking about a couple of moments ago, Jesse, were seem to me kind of self-awareness kind of stuff. Um, what, what does— I mean, would you call that self-awareness? And what do you understand by self-awareness? What would you call it?

Yeah, I think so. I think there's, there's 2 components to the way in which I understand self-awareness and the way in which we— I would say we as an organization in support of children and families try to approach that. One is, um, not just self-awareness as self-acknowledgement, right? Acknowledging when you are in a position where things are going well, or when you're not, or what your behaviors are and how they manifest and how you respond to certain stimuli. I mean, just that self-knowledge, I think, is— but I think the other component of self-awareness that is harder and that we've seen be a lot harder is, and I'll— even for me personally, is acting upon that knowledge in a way That allows you to grow and to bring it, you know, to bring it full circle, allows you to thrive. It's one thing to know that, you know, when you're tired or when you've had a long day, you're going to bring that home and be frustrated at little things. It's another thing to use that knowledge to somehow reground yourself before you step into an environment such that you don't get frustrated. So we, when I think self-awareness, I think kind of what I was talking about that may have triggered that thought for you was, you know, just sort of a self-knowledge, a self, truly an awareness of who you are and, you know, how you respond and what you focus in on. But I think the other piece of that that's really important is that then using that information to grow, to grow and to thrive.

Yeah.

I, I'm fascinated by this whole self thing. Um, and I, you know, the, the, the logo— I don't know if you've spotted, but the logo, the Thriving Adoptees logo, is a diamond, right? And that is an intentional—

Sure.

Contrast to this idea, this belief that many middle-aged adoptees have I haven't spoken to many adopted 8-year-olds, though a few I have. This idea that there's something wrong with us. So the metaphor would be trash in the US.

True.

Or rubbish here in the UK. Right? And it would be a bin.

Yeah.

This, this, that, that's, that's, uh, if you dug deep enough into most adoptees who've had a tough time, right, then that's what there would be. So for me, self-awareness has, has 2 elements. It's got that, that element that, you know, awareness when our, you know, aware of when our behavior is off.

Right.

Yep.

Awareness of what maybe was driving that, such as lack of sleep, lack of hydration, whatever it is, right? Crankiness, whatever that is. Jet lag, I'm thinking, you know. Um, and, and then that, that's one part to self-awareness, but the other, the bigger part for me is, well, what's the aware, you know, what's the aware What's the self I'm aware of, right? And, and I heard this— I was talking about how I love a metaphor. So one of my mentors, I considered a guy called Michael Neal out on the West Coast, is a great metaphor king. And I got the diamond from him, but he talks about the diamond, and this is nothing to do with the doctrine, right? He, he, he was talking about, you know, that we are essentially a diamond, but that, that diamond gets covered in, um, horse crap. Uh, and, and so, uh, it is. And then so we start to think that there's something wrong with us, uh, and, and then we start to be concerned that other people will see that there's something wrong with us, and therefore we, we cover the horse crap with nail varnish, which is metaphor there. Yeah, he came up with, right? So it's an uncovering thing, right? It's an, an uncovering, covering thing to— it's going, it's going through the layers of our, um, well, layers of our trauma perhaps, or layers of our low self-esteem or lack of confidence, going through our feelings to kind of uncover the self that has been obscured. Um, yeah.

I, I love that. And I— to me, it's actually a perfect, um, it's, it's emblematic of the way that I think the child welfare, at least in the States and a little bit in the UK, um, Eileen Munro has written about this, but the way that the field of, of child care and foster care, child welfare and foster care and adoption has evolved from the '70s and '80s into the '90s and the early aughts and today. When you talk about that, that the, the horse crap and the varnish on top of the diamond, and then the opportunity to sort of peel all of that back, you know, in the, in the, in the '70s and '80s and a little bit into the '90s, there was this ethos of there is something wrong with the child, with the youth that is being adopted. And that shifted to there is something wrong with the family that we had to take this child out, or, you know, the family had to give this child up, or there's something wrong with the family. And now we've— we seem to have begun this shift to a conversation of there is something wrong with our environment that has created a situation where families are no longer thriving. And why is that? And to me, the, the story that you told of, you know, at first feeling like there is something wrong with you And having all this, all these awful things layered on top of that, and then starting to peel that back, to me, is, is it tracks very interestingly alongside the evolution of, of the industry. And I do hope that we can continue to evolve in a way that we better come to the realization that is at least my truth right now. And I know this will change and evolve because information changes and evolves, but the units in which, in which children thrive are healthy families. And I'm stealing this point from Jennifer from earlier, but what is a healthy family is very, very different. That can be a birth family, it can be a kinship family, it can be an adoptive family. You know, families look different across time and space, but ultimately children thrive in healthy families. And I think that if we as an industry can continue to move along this evolutionary path that you, Simon, that you just described in a very personal way, I think we'll all be better for it because I think we'll be in a position where we understand that our goal in the work that we do is to create an environment in which families are strong and therefore children will thrive.

Yeah, one of the biggest things that I've learned outside of the adoptee community is that, uh, an adoption community for that matter, is that there's an awful lot of non-adoptees that don't think they're good enough either. We don't have the monopoly on low self-esteem, right?

No.

Um, and I, I do, I do think we, we sometimes blame what is human on adoption.

Sure.

And, uh, which is a bit scary. For me, um, because I, I call it pinning the tail on the wrong donkey.

You are a metaphor man. That's a good one.

I like that. Um, I, I want to take you back, um, to the word lens before, Jennifer. You talked about, uh, the, the lens that we look through life. Um, can you explain a little bit more? Because I had a question on that, but how I ask the question will depend on what kind of what you mean by lens.

Well, you know, I think, I think it's, it's again, how, how we look at the world, how we look at other people, how we evaluate relationships, how we connect. It's all your, to me, your lenses is, um, is all built from you're being in a family or not being in a family, having opportunities or not having opportunities, you know, worrying about, you know, with some of our, you know, basic needs, you know, families is, you know, worrying about where am I going to stay or do I have food or, you know, just again, just the basics of life. My lens is going to be very different how I respond. You know, what do I look for? And I think the lens has a lot to do— we haven't talked about the word trust. You know, our children that maybe have been in difficult situations, the trust isn't there. They have to learn what does trust mean. You know, it means there's going to be a person there that's, that's my person. And it's consistent, and they're always going to be there. You know, there's research around, you know, how do, how do children, or what's one of the factors of children thriving is they have that one person. And that one person could be different depending on the situation. And so, you know, to me, I think, you know, oftentimes if I'm misreading something, I go, you know, my— I need to get a new prescription. My lens isn't— you know, I need to adjust that lens. That's not what that person meant, or that's not what the world meant for me, you know, to me, or I misinterpreted that. And so what, what can I learn from it? And then You know, you kind of pack that back into your lens, you know, or, or that's another kind of layer to, you know, to your lens of how you go about your world and your life. And, you know, how you connect with people or you don't, you know, some people who, you know, your lenses off, you know, have difficulty connecting with people. And some of that could be because maybe it could be an autism issue too.

Yeah.

So everything kind of affects I think the way you look at and how you respond, and then how you respond sometimes is, is how then the world responds back to you. Yeah.

Well, a couple of ways to go there. I'll go with the big one first that makes me seem really intelligent. Einstein said that the biggest question we can ask ourselves is the world for us or against us? And that's, that for me, that, that's a, that question helps us see our lens.

Yeah.

Right. So I, I hadn't put, I hadn't put self-awareness and lenses together, but I, I think we I've been trying to make a really great metaphor out of this for a while. So you can see I've got lenses on. Well, the guests can see I've got lenses on. Sorry, you can't listen as clearly. I've got a great— what did somebody say? I've got a great face for radio. Jennifer's got lenses on. Right, so I've been wearing lenses 10 years maybe, um, and I, I need them for reading. So if, if I'm— if I shave without my lens, without my glasses on, I, I leave stubble, but I can't see that I've left it, right? But if, if, if I— if the other way around is if, you know, you're trying to look at a, a, a license plate a license plate on a car 100 yards away and you can't read it, you know that you can't read it. So there's something very— there's a big thing for me here and haven't quite cracked it about what that means. It's like we— if we're long-sighted, we can't see what's right under our nose, something like that. And, and is, is that why we challenge— is, is that why we have this challenge with self-awareness? Because we're too close to it?

Or—

I know, can, can, can somebody help me extend the metaphor? Play this out.

I don't know if I can understand the metaphor, but I almost see it as, you know, your, your eyesight is evolving or devolving depending on your perspective, and you require support in the way of lenses to ensure that you can do the things that you need to do throughout the day, whether whether that's shaving or, you know, looking at a license plate or whatever that is. And I think that a lot of the families and youth that we work with have circumstances that impact their eyesight one way or another. And our job is to act as lenses, in this particular metaphor, to help support them seeing the world and navigating it in a way in which they can be successful. So I almost— that's not nearly as sophisticated as a focus on self or the Einsteinian question, but I almost see the— at least in the work that we do— the state of the eyes, the state of your eyes, of Jennifer's eyes, as where the family is. And we are the optometrist or ophthalmologist whose job it is to establish lenses in a way that help them navigate Yeah, I don't think that's quite where you were going.

I think it's, it, it's not, but it's probably nicer.

Yeah, it's simpler. I, I think that— I think you were far more elevated than I was.

Okay, I have a tendency to, to reach too far for these things.

No, I thought it was good.

Um, thank you. Uh, the— I've just come in upon time here. I just wanted to Ask you if there's anything that you'd like to share that I haven't asked you about.

I guess it's, you know, it's the community piece that I think everybody needs to be aware of. You know, when you look at our families and our children, you know, people kind of outside that, it's like, well, that's not me. But they are. I mean, it is our community. You are part of that community that can provide support, and support doesn't have to be, you know, money or whatever. But if you have an opportunity to interact with the child and, you know, bring that best foot forward, and if you interact with a family that, you know, needs maybe some— a little bit of assistance or just— you know, an ear or just, you know, sharing a lens, you know, you do it. I mean, because we really— I think we need to be more connected than not. I think we get into a little challenge, or, and I'll even say trouble, when we get disconnected. And so, you know, it's all part of, I think, our life and our environment. And so, you know, we talk about, you know, a healthy child, you know, it thrives in a healthy and thriving family and in a community that is also caring and safe and thriving. So thriving happens at all parts of that process or that, you know, that kind of system. And we all have a part of it, you know. You know, if you see something, you know, an opportunity, you know, reach out, you know, if there's a new have connections, and you can make connections anywhere. Yeah. Beautiful.

The, the kind of, uh, village thing. Village. Right. Yeah. And the, the word is the, the, the, um, metaphor, the other word that was popping into my head is that, you know, we, we can, we can become a bit siloed, can't we? You know, um, and even within the adoption space, it's the adoption space or the Foster space, or it's the, it's the transracial adoptions against the baby scook era. Everything's, everything's, you know, everything's kind of narrowed down and into narrower and narrower groups, and we don't, we don't share as, as much. We don't learn from as, as, uh, as much from the others we, we can. We don't, we don't try, we don't try other people's lenses on. Because we stick in our gang and our gang wears Ray-Ban Wayfarers, you know, whatever it is.

Right, right.

Yeah. Jesse, is there anything else you'd like to share?

No, I think Jennifer summed it up beautifully. I think I would just, you know, re-emphasize that in this space and in the work that we do with families, we are not carpenters, we are gardeners, and we want to create those those conditions where families and youth can thrive. And Simon, one thing that you have done for me during our time together that I really appreciate is expanding the metaphor of the gardener to essentially be a shared community garden. And I think that is really beautiful. And I think that, that is something that, that for me, I will, I will take moving forward. And I am grateful for that. But no, nothing to add on what Jennifer said. I thought she summed it up beautifully.

Yeah. Well, thank you, Jesse and Jennifer. Um, uh, thank you, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care. Bye-bye.

Thank you.