Goodbye Shame With Penny Rowntree

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Penny, Penny Rowntree. Looking forward to our conversation today, Penny?

Very much so, yes. Cool.

So Penny's in South Yorkshire, uh, and I'm in North Yorkshire, so we have so many, uh, guests from so far away, uh, it's, uh, it's a real treat to have someone just kind of down the road, about 50 miles I guess. Weatherby to Sheffield, roughly something like that. And yeah, the other significant thing is I think you're the first Penny on the call. My sister's Penny, so I told you that, didn't I, yesterday? My sister's Penny.

You did.

I have not asked her on the show. I don't even know whether she listens to it. Anyway, listeners, Penny and I had a great conversation yesterday and just a notion of that experience in this area. So Penny works for Adopters for Adoption, which is a national adoption agency based, but she's based in Sheffield. And as I do, we talked about the conversation and about thriving. And at the end of that conversation, Penny talked about guilt and shame and those being 2 obstacles Yeah. Yeah? Is that how you would see it?

I would. I think that they're feelings that can influence how we see ourselves and how— and can really influence our ability to connect with other people to a degree that stops us from engaging, in with others, but also engaging in our own lives as well. Very definitely.

How do you see the difference between guilt and shame?

I think shame is something that, for me, um, that's something that's kind of— it comes, it's a feeling that wells up from inside. It's not necessarily associated with Anything, a particular event or a particular episode or a conversation with somebody. I think it feels like an underlying feeling that's bubbling around there, and it's quite pervasive. It's something that kind of is a feeling that's a constant. But I think guilt for me is something that I would link much more with with something that happens that I would take responsibility for, that I would feel that I had a part to play in, in a negative way.

Yeah. I think I heard it described, I'm not sure when this was, or the difference described as guilt, it ties in with your definition, that guilt is about something that we've done. And shame is about who we are.

Yeah, yeah.

So it kind of goes— shame goes to identity.

Yes.

Um, and guilt goes to actions.

Yeah.

As you said, something that's happened, something we've done, something taking responsibility to. And when I get near this, anytime I get near this shame word, Um, a, a book I read years ago, listened to years ago, pops into my head and it's called Power Versus Force by a guy called David Hawkins. Have you heard of that book, Power Versus Force?

No, I haven't. No.

The guy's got, uh, he, he developed a scale of human consciousness.

Okay.

From 0 to 1,000.

Mm-hmm.

Um, And a lot of the scale is about feelings. And it, it, it's so 0 to 1,000. 0 is dead and shame is 20.

Okay.

And so it's the lowest, it's the closest thing.

Yeah.

To, to, to, to death. And, you know, we think about suicidal, suicidality, suicidal ideation. Um, and, and, and that's at 20 and 0, you know, you kind of— that's— it's a really dangerous zone. Absolutely.

And very, very difficult to let go of, you know, really hard if you start, you know, if that feels— that's what I was meaning when I said pervasive, you know, it's something that is— it eats away and it's very difficult to once you have internalised that, I think it's so hard to move away from that core sense— sorry, that core feeling.

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, listeners, Penny's had a number of different roles within social work, including roles in adoption thus. So you work these days, you work supporting Adoptive. Adoptive parents.

Yeah.

Um, and also in the past you've done a lot of work in play therapy. So, yes, I think— did we discuss that yesterday? Um, your qualification in play therapy came from York, which is also very close to where I am, uh, 15 miles maybe. Um, And you, you talked about something really fascinating for me in terms of your work, your, your interaction with kids.

Mm-hmm.

And the play therapy, sitting, playing with them, sitting with them to see what it— see what was going on for them. And then to— I think this is kind of how, how I got a sense of what you were talking about— engaging, engaging with them, seeing what was, what was coming up, and then gently questioning some of the, some of the negative beliefs perhaps about themselves and negative feelings that their kids came up with.

Yeah.

Is that about right, Penny?

Yeah, I think that's it. I think it's about being alongside the child. I mean, this takes time because obviously you've got to build up that sense of trust, and— but it's about hearing what the child is saying about how they're feeling about themselves and also how they're feeling about the world that they're living in. But helping them to make sense of that by staying alongside them. And then as that understanding grows, I mean, I don't just keep it between myself and the child. You know, there's a real sense that, you know, I spend such a short period of time with children in that way. So it's about enabling and helping parents to understand that for the child as well. So who the child is and what their needs are. But it is very definitely about, you know, kind of recognizing those, um, you know, that those thinking patterns that aren't helpful aren't real. You know, that the children will try to make sense of and understand the world around them. with perhaps a limited capacity to question that, or certainly in terms of the cognitive thought processes, be able to understand it, you know, people's thoughts and beliefs and feelings, things that have happened to them, as being outside of their kind of ability to control. And so they are left with lots and lots of feelings of shame and guilt. Which is misplaced. So it is very, very gently about trying to help children who've experienced that trauma and that loss to understand what that was about and that they weren't responsible for it.

Yeah. One of the things that fascinates me is how the feeling of loss.

Yeah.

Uh, becomes a belief.

Yeah.

Rooted in a belief of shame. And it, um, it fascinates me because it's so— this happens so young for so many of us, we have no recollection of it.

Yeah.

And, and I, I struggle to put it in— I struggle to put it into words because one seems so, um, as in loss feels so emotional, and, and, and shame seems far more beliefy. Do you know what I mean? Like, loss feels like a heart thing, and shame feels like a head thing.

Okay. Yeah, no, I can see that. I can— I haven't ever thought about it like that before, Simon, but I can completely see that. I think that's really interesting. I think one of the things that I see time and time again, and I wonder if this is something about it, is that the, the loss that children who are living within adoptive families— that loss is layered. There's so many layers to it. There's a loss of the birth family, there's a loss of that connection, that innate connection that babies have with birth mum. So there's that huge loss. There's the loss of that whole sense of safety and security when they— perhaps because of abuse, perhaps not, perhaps, you know, perhaps it, it's about something else, the reasons why they first go to live with foster carers. But then there's another loss, isn't there? There's a loss of all of that sense of themselves. they move in to live with their foster carers, but then they lose the foster carers as well. So they, they lose that love, that connection, that emotional being with somebody else. They lose it all over again a second time. And, and I wonder if, if there's that repeated loss at an emotional level, that actually it intrinsically becomes part of of the thought process and the, you know, kind of a real understanding within the brain of these repeated patterns of experience happening, that it's going to feel much more like a— it becomes an integrated sense of ourselves, doesn't it, that sense of shame? Yeah.

Layers on layers.

It is.

I see it often as a snowball thing.

Yes.

So it starts with an idea and then the idea snowballs. And the other— I'm A complete— on a completely different perspective on this. I can see how in the absence of a memory of this stuff, we can really overcook it.

Hmm.

We can— I, I, I talk about sometimes, like, I'm able to make a mountain out of a molehill and a molehill out of a mountain.

Okay.

And I don't know, I don't know the, the, the difference. I can point to a couple of really bad moments.

Yeah.

About me thinking about my birth mum.

Yeah.

But the rest of it, it's, it's just not there. So it—

the—

so I can really If I listen to— if I go too much into this stuff, then my, um, my— what do they call it? Um, uh, there's a psychological word for it. My confirmation bias can really ramp up.

Yeah.

And I can make— I can make what was a molehill into a mountain. Because I don't know whether the— what happened in those first 5 weeks of my life.

Yeah.

I didn't know the size of the— the size of— I didn't know the altitude of the summit, right? So I didn't know whether it was a mountain or a molehill. But do you know what I mean? Like, I get a sense that my creative My creative and negative bias can get really, really ramped up in the absence of a memory of her.

I think it's almost like that self-sabotage, isn't it, when you have those feelings of shame that are based on that loss? And I think, you know, it's a lot of this loss happens pre-verbal, you know, that I don't think we've— I mean, we understand much more now than we ever have done previously about the impact of those pre-verbal experiences, those pre-verbal memory experiences, and what the significance of that is. But it— I am interested about what you're saying in terms of the thought that, you know, you can almost see that pattern happening for yourself, but it's so difficult to get off that train. You know, that it keeps revealing itself, and it keeps revealing itself to you. You know, that it happens once in your life, but then it happens again. And I just wonder about that self-sabotage. And I see that so often in the families that I work with, that idea that, you know, that children are rejecting, are pushing away. And it's about testing, of course it is. It's about, you know, are you going to be here? I've got these really big feelings. Can you hold on to these feelings for me? But it's also that bit about, I must be unlovable, you know, that I'm holding all this shame and all this sense of responsibility for what's happened. So I don't trust in, I don't believe in this relationship that you're offering. me. And whether that comes with meeting birth parents later in life, or whether it comes with trying to make new relationships with your adoptive parents, you know, it— I think it's all part of the same thing for me.

Yeah. And yet that word self-sabotage sounds like we're at fault for it.

Yeah. Yeah.

So, so that, that, that's you, you're back to guilt about— you talk— we're talking about guilt about shame then.

Yes.

Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I see that self-sabotage as, uh, a, a conflict between different parts of us. You know, if we look at If, if we look at, um, have you dug, have you dug into IFS, Internal Family Systems, at all?

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

So, I, I, I, that's how I kind of, how I see it. So I think self-sabotage for me is conflict between 2 parts.

Okay. Yes, yes.

Um, and yeah. The genius for me of IFS is it's a psycho-spiritual model. So the parts are our psychology and our uppercase S Self is separate.

Yeah.

From our psychology and untainted by our psychology, unblemished by us. Unwounded by our psychology. So that for me is— that for me is, is where the power lies, is stepping back.

Yeah.

Stepping back from the, the conflict between our— between my parts to the uppercase S. Simon, that's kind of beyond, yeah, beyond my psychology.

And it is that process, isn't it? It's about, it's about being able to, to feel strong enough to do that and to, to reflect on that.

Well, yeah, it's feeling strong about it, and, but it starts with having that as an option. Absolutely. If you, if you, if, if you are only looking at psychological Models.

Absolutely.

Then, then you don't have the option of, of, uh, you don't have that. That option's not even on the table to you.

Yeah.

If you've got— if, if the options are A, B, or C.

Yes.

And, and C is, C is uppercase S, Self. And you haven't been told that, which is why I talk about psycho-spiritual models a lot on the podcast to try and gently suggest people point— well, point that out as an option.

Yeah.

To them. What's your take on that?

I think it's— I think there's so much of, of the way that we think about ourselves And so much of— for the families that I work with, there's so much a kind of a striving for being there for the child, being there for everybody within the family, that it's easier to close doors sometimes, I think, when— When things go wrong. And I think that it's hard. It takes a lot of resilience, I think, and a lot of energy. And sometimes those are the— the energy is the thing that goes first. So I think that it's hard, Simon, I think, to keep— To keep going. To keep that front and centre, I think that's really hard to do.

Keeping what front and centre? The uppercase S, Simon?

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree with you, and I also think that one of the biggest challenges is we've not even heard it as an option. No, no. So we got to be able to forget it. We need to have heard about it in the first place. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so let's shift gears on the same kind of on the same subject, um, the subject of shame. Let's look at this from a perhaps an adopter perspective.

Mm-hmm.

Um, what, what's the starting point for you there? I mean, for, for me, often I think of infertility and, um, miscarriages, the pain of a miscarriage, and, you know, you know, the The grief for some— so some women have all been dreaming of having a baby for as long as they can remember.

Yes.

And then there's that, there's the grief at the loss of the dream through infertility. So those are some of the things that I kind of hear. and that land profoundly for me, even as a guy, right?

Yeah.

What does— what's the kind of the starting point for you on shame and adopters?

I think my experience is that people come to adoption for a lot of different reasons, but yes, very definitely difficulties with fertility and, um, and what that means for themselves, not just for, for women but for men as well, that difficulty, you know, that, that real need to have that family. I mean, people come to adoption as well quite altruistically, you know, perhaps they've already had birth children, perhaps the idea of actually having a birth child when There is such a need for loving families for children who don't have that opportunity. So there's quite a mix. Um, I think it's always— we always need to be very curious about what that motivation is to adopt, really cautious with people about helping them to think about that pathway. to, to coming forward, and also very cautious about thinking about what those experiences have been for them. Um, what, what the— if it is difficulties with fertility, if it is single adopters who have just not found those partners, um, and that kind of dream about being a parent, being a mum, being a dad, um, you know, what that's about. Um, I'm thinking maybe of same-sex relationships as well. Um, just, just all the different journeys There. I think shame's a really interesting one because I think we all carry it, and it, you know, for different reasons and in different, you know, it forms a larger or smaller part of who we are. I think that's inevitable. I think that it's interesting because one of the things that I'm really careful about is how that shame might be triggered down the line when parenting a little person who's experienced a lot of trauma and a lot of loss and is feeling quite a lot of shame as well. What the impact of that might be for this person that, that I'm hoping is going to go on and be a very successful parent. Um, you know, what the impact of that is going to be and the dynamic of that. And I mean, it's broader than just shame, isn't it? It's, you know, there's, there's so many more factors involved in that. But just thinking about shame, it's thinking about where are the resiliencies? How do I recognise in myself when I'm experiencing or feeling that sense of shame? So that's something that we'll think about during the assessment process. You know, what are the triggers to that? How do people make sense of it? And understand how they can remain separate to it, you know, similar to what you've just been talking about. But how, how as well do we use the people around us, the support networks, you know, those personal support networks, to enable us to, to really keep that shame in a context? You know, for example, I've got working with a family now who are finding it really difficult to access the support network around them because of concerns and anxieties about kind of the difficulties that they're experiencing as being parents. And that's really tough. You know, that sense of— those feelings of shame coming to the For that then prevent you from accessing support from the very people that have carried you so far in your life. And then, you know, the implications of that for your relationship with your child. So it's— yeah, we see it in so many different— so many different aspects of it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I, I want—

sometime last year, I, I put a really one-sentence Facebook quote, uh, Facebook post, yeah, and it was, um, has, has anybody ever told you that you— the voice in your head is a liar?

That was it. Um, we should all have that fridge magnet, actually. Well, yeah, yeah.

And somebody— I don't know if I've talked about that on a podcast, probably have— um, somebody put underneath, has anybody ever told you to fuck off? And I, I was absolutely gobsmacked. That really Gobsmacked me that the the the power of our egos, yeah. The the the the power of our egos to block, yeah. To to to fight, yeah. I how do because there's nowhere to go, is there? There's no way. There's no— there's nowhere to, to go. I, I, I just, I just deleted the, the— just unfriended the guy and just left it. I think— did I take it off? No, I think I just left it and didn't respond to it. Um, because I knew that I was gonna have a fight on my hands, but it just gobsmacked me.

Yeah, yeah.

But I guess as a therapist, you see the most logical stuff.

Well, we do. We have so many internal barriers, don't we? You know, that drive to— the need to protect ourselves when we feel that there's so many external forces acting upon us that are threatening. You know, that need to to, to really— and we have to take care of ourselves, don't we? We have to take care of yourself first and foremost. You know, it's that, it's that— what is it on the, on the aeroplanes? That thing about put your own oxygen mask on.

Yeah.

And it's, you know, that keeps coming back to me time and time again when I think of adoptive families. You know, adoptive parents work so hard to look after the children that they love and that they, you know, they, they want to provide and, and create a life that, that they're going to, you know, cherish and, and get so much out of. And, and it's, it's a— that huge bit, I think, for, for adopters of thinking about, you know, what do I need? What, what do I need? to look after me so that I can be the best person to look after my child, my children. And it's, it's so hard. So many influences, so many external influences, as well as those internal fights and struggles that we have with ourselves.

Yeah. Did you say barriers? Did you say internal barriers? Is that the word you used?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, so what's, what, what's the way? When you think of barriers, do you think of, you know, like the way through the barrier, the way around the barrier, the way over the barrier, what the, the, the dissolution of the barrier, you know? How do you see that? How do you see what we do?

I think it's about recognizing the barrier because, you know, sometimes it's so hard to see When you're in the middle of it, when you're exhausted, you know, we were talking earlier about being overloaded and overwhelmed and what the difference was between the two and how they're so enmeshed as well. And I think identifying those barriers is the hardest thing to do. And then when you do recognize it, when you do see it, it's where are the resources?

Yeah.

to break them down. And it's, you know, sometimes it's not always helpful to break them down. Sometimes they play a part, a really important part, in keeping things going as well. You know, when, when we are feeling overwhelmed, we need those barriers as scaffolding. So they're not necessarily always not a friend. That's not very—

Yeah.

Helpful way of turning the terminology. But so sometimes we need those barriers to help us manage particular situations or periods of time. But so long as we recognize that they, you know, they're not helpful to have and to maintain in the long term. So it's, yeah.

So listeners, we were talking about overload versus overwhelm. So that, in a nutshell, overwhelm is, is the feeling, And overload is trying to do too much. And the difference between the two, to make what overload is crystal clear, you know, Penny was talking about working 3 days a week and parenting the other part of the week. Well, that's—

Yeah.

Okay, parenting outside the workday, right? You know, so But to make a difference because people are passionate about their work. We have people on this podcast that are passionate about their work, passionate about making a difference. And so we can perhaps do more, squeeze 4 days' work into 3, or try and do that. That's overload, is trying to do too much. Whereas feeling overwhelmed is is the feeling of having too much on your plate, and overload is having too much on your plate. And they get lost in the moment. I think it only becomes— the distinction is only clear after.

Yes.

Kind of after the event. So back to seeing the barriers then. I thought, as you were talking about that being difficult, I thought about a mentor of mine that used to say it's hard to see the picture when we're in the frame. So, okay.

Yeah.

That's when a trusted person like a therapist, a social worker, somebody that works at the agency that you adopted through, or a fellow adopter, fellow adoptive parent, comes in handy because they can point us to stuff that we can't see for ourselves, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So back to breaking through the barriers then, once we've seen them. What's your view on that, Penny?

I think it's— the barriers are very isolating, aren't they? I think you can feel very isolated. If you feel that the experience that you're having is something that's unique to you. And I think as parents or adoptive parents, we take a lot of responsibility for difficulties that our children experience or difficulties that we have in the relationship that we have with our children. So, you know, we, we take on that responsibility. And they become huge. You know, that sense of, if I did this differently, if I could think about that differently, had I done something else, then perhaps it would've been different. And that internal conversation that we have that eats away at us, coming back to that sense of shame again, you know, that—

Yeah.

that actually that's about isolation for me. That if we have a conversation, if we keep a conversation alive with people that we trust around us, and, you know, we recognize that the support network for our adopters is key, it's crucial, you know, if we can help that support network understand the experiences of, you know, kind of the experiences of the child who's been traumatized, the experiences of the child who has had very early loss, um, and is experiencing grief even at 18 months and 2 years. You know, if we can, if we can really have a support network that understands that, and then that understands and recognizes the needs of their adopters, you know, their, their brothers, their sisters, their friends, their children who are the adopters to a degree of such that those people are there. You know, they need to understand the adoption process, if you like, as well. You need— they need to understand the stresses that come with that process, the assessment process, family finding, the intensity of being linked and going through matching and, you know, introductions, first meeting your child in those early days and weeks and months of living newly together as a family. If we can help that support network understand what that's about and the pressures that come with that, as well as obviously all of the, you know, the delights and the happiness and the pleasure and the joy that comes with that, then I think we're asking— it's that family, that family that lives around the child. I think We're asking, you know, we're asking for everybody to be involved in those barriers. You know, everybody to recognize that they're going to be there because that's what this is all about. Not the barriers, but that life is, you know, family life, living as a family, being a parent is— it comes with— Big challenges, big rewards, but big challenges too. And so I think for me, it's that bit about never seeing those barriers in isolation at any level. You know, that the barrier itself is not isolated to everything else that's going on around, but also that the person experiencing that isn't isolated to the support network that is around that. And, you know, the professional support network is only ever time-limited. You know, it's there, and rightly so. You know, nobody, no family wants a professional network involved with that in their lives for any longer than it, than it needs to be. So for me, it's about strengthening the family network, the friends around, so that those barriers don't become overwhelming. You know, they become things that can be understood within the family network. And, you know, that we have people that we can turn to, we have people that will stick their neck out, if you like, and say, look, I can see you're struggling. I don't need the ins and outs of it. But what can, what can we do to ease some of this right now? What do you need?

Yeah.

You know, is it, is it a break, a walk around the park with the dog? Is it that I'll pop around with some food? Is it that you just need to be able to shout and feel with me for a while, and then, you know, start to make sense of it and start to break through it that way. Yeah.

So the sense is really community helps us reduce barriers.

Yeah.

Overcome barriers, break through them. One of the things that I hear quite a lot is that parents are late to ask for help.

Yeah, and but you see, you can see that pattern because adoptive parents have it hard, okay? So they, they, they come into parenting having gone through an assessment process having gone through training, which, you know, is supposed to make them the perfect parent, as if there was such a thing. Um, but, you know, we do our adopters no favours, um, you know, by sort of kind of skilling them up. We ask them to do so much reading, we ask them to do their own research, we, we provide formal training programs and packages for them, you know, we sort of create these parents that have such a sense of, I can do this, I can do this, I should be able to do this. And, um, for me it's that bit about— so that's one side of it, but the other side of it is that when they meet their child, their child has experienced that loss and that trauma and those disrupted attachments. And so the child is coming As a little bundle with all that that entails. And so the difficulties, if you like, the parent starts at, you know, if a newborn baby with no difficulties during pregnancy, if we say that's a kind of zero— I'm going to come back to a scale again here— if that's a zero, and we think about our 2-year-old who's experienced loss and trauma and grief and pain and sadness, um, and fear. You know, if that child's coming in at 50, um, then we've got parents who are understanding need at 50. Okay? And, and they're already coming in thinking, well, I, I, I've been equipped to do this. I can do this. So actually, if you think about then that they're then learning about parenting with a child who has a lot of needs. Um, and then they're building on— they become the expert in their child really very quickly, and they start informing that network around them— the nursery, the schools, the GP, the— even if there's a therapist, you know, they're going to the therapist saying, this is my child, they've had these experiences. You know, that they've, they've seen of as being this expert when, when actually we need to scoop them up as parents. Um, but they're seen of as having, um, you know, kind of already taken care of so much that by the time they're depleted, their resources are depleted. And, and, you know, there are difficulties arise because life arises, that actually the threshold for asking for help, you know, you can see how that threshold just gets higher and higher and higher because they've already come in midway or even higher than midway. So yeah, you know, we say to our adopters all the time, if you're feeling something when it's tiny, let us know. Because we want to know about those feelings when they're very small because they might indicate something, they might not, but they will help us to explore with you whether or not these are difficulties or problems that need support. But you can see why some adopters come, you know, with big, big problems, you know, and you might think, well, Why, why didn't you raise this earlier? But there's, there's a whole thing that goes with why that didn't happen, you know. And also, you know, problems don't just happen and then just explode and then just remain permanent, you know. As, as families, there are still great days and, you know, good days and, and little things. I think, you know, adoptive parents take great pleasure in the little steps As well. Yeah, sorry, I feel like I've really rambled on there.

No, no, that, um, I think that feels like a good place to, to bring it in with a, um, a reminder to, to be grateful for the little stuff. Squeeze the small stuff, as one guy used to say. I can't remember his name. Um, is there anything else that you'd like to share on with the listeners?

I just think that, you know, I've worked for 30-odd years with children and with adoptive families, and I'm humbled by— you know, we started off talking yesterday when we first met Simon about thriving, and I've been humbled by by those parents and those children who have taken experience and, um, and have really thrived, have really built those relationships, um, and taken their lives forward. It's— I find that, that spirit, um, yeah, it's all— it creates a sense of awe. In me. Yeah. Yeah.

Fantastic. Thanks, listeners. Thanks, Bunny. We'll speak to you again very soon. Take care.

Bye-bye.