Healing The Inner Child With Carolyn Parker

Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. And today we've got a Brit!

Yay!

We've got a British person, a British adoptee on the show, Carolyn Parker. Lovely to see you. So delighted to have a fellow Brit on the show. I love Americans, I love Canadians, Australians, Kiwis. I love you all. I love you all adoptees, right? I love you all world people. And I'm especially delighted to have a Brit adoptee on the show because we're a bit stiff upper lip, aren't we? We're sometimes adopted, you know, adoption's a— it's a— what's it? It's an emotional minefield, isn't it? Or an emotional roller coaster. And it's touchy, and not many British people want to go near that. So good on you. Thank you, Parker, for having the confidence to come on and do this stuff.

Yeah, thank you for inviting me, Simon.

Yeah, so, uh, Carolyn and I spoke the other week, listeners, and, and, uh, we have come up with this, uh, topic for the podcast, which is healing the inner child. And I am fascinated by this stuff because I know Nothing of it whatsoever. Well, I'm not— I don't— I think I've probably done something similar, maybe, but I haven't called it that. But Carolyn, you have, right? That's, that's why you're in the— so the inner child work is— as, as, as it— how would you say, what sort of impact would you say it's had on, on you, uh, the inner child work?

It's had a massive insight in, in understanding me, understanding that little me and medium-sized me And being able to integrate that into a sense of wholeness. I've also noticed that I don't have such undulating temperament, I'll put it nicely. I used to have episodes of rage which I never really understood, and I finally found out that that was actually my inner child screaming at me to actually listen to her.

Right. Well, there's a lot there. Um, I'm just, uh, I'm just posing. Yeah, so I guess the undulating temperament kind of goes with that emotional roller coaster thing.

Yes, very much.

That I was mentioning. It seems, uh, uh, a, uh, a more precise, uh, way of describing the emotional roller coaster. So, um, Can I start with the, uh, the, the little and the medium? What's the difference? What's, what's this stuff about?

Well, little me is that, uh, so baby me initially, um, doing some research when I was looking for my birth parents, I came across a report that said that I was a very good child, that I never cried. And I, and my mother would often tell me how, what a good child I was, what a good baby, I never cried. And then we realized that maybe that wasn't such a good thing after all. Maybe that was me being in the state of shock and thinking, well, I've had my name changed, I've had my clothes changed, I've had the person who's holding me changed, I've had the type of milk I'm having changed, and I'm just totally bemused. So just realizing some of the stuff that happened as a child that I just kind of took in my stride, that this is what happened to everybody, I began to see that some of this was coming from somewhere else. So particularly when I was about 4 or 5, I started school at 3, I was an only child, and we had a day where you just had to bring a board game in. I'm not really sure what was happening with the teachers, but we were told to bring a board game in. And we're all playing this board game, and I was trying to join in because board games you need 2 or 3 people to play, it's not something you play on your own. And I'd gone around the whole class, and that sort of rage inside me was getting worse and worse because I just didn't feel I fitted. Nobody seemed to want me to play their game. And it's the first time when it just erupted. And for a placid child to suddenly start going around the room flipping up these boards, there was counters going everywhere, there was squeals, there were screams. And the headteacher walks in, you know, really stern, Carolyn, you know, come here kind of thing. And it was me just feeling that— I now know that was my inner child just feeling totally exasperated at this feeling that I'm being left out, nobody accepts me, nobody wants me to join in. But that was treated— and I can see why from the outside, particularly with lack of understanding of any of that in those days— I was treated by being told to go and spend the rest of the day with a younger group of children. And at one stage we did do like some PE, supposed PE, and we were asked to be a horse and go around the room like a horse and Then I was told that the naughty child had actually done this best, so let's just watch the naughty child do this. And you can imagine that that just pushed so much extra shame on me from that little incident. One little incident that had a profound effect. And this sort of sense of this anger coming up, which came up again with a medium-sized me in my teenage years with all the hormones and stuff going as well. And particularly when I had my first boyfriend, there were things being thrown across the room, and it was— I kept thinking, this isn't me, this isn't— I kind of knew it wasn't me. It felt as if it was a different me. I didn't understand it at all. It would come out of nowhere, and I would be perfectly calm one minute, and then the next minute this little whirling dervish would appear. And I remember that, you know, the cartoon with the Like a character that goes round and round and round, the same.

You mean a Tasmanian devil?

Yes, I would just turn into a Tasmanian devil for about 10 minutes, and then I would be totally spent. I would feel completely exhausted, and I would just break down crying in a little fetal position. Of course, I didn't understand any of this at that time, but only relatively recently I discovered my inner child. I discovered this was just all this emotional in, you know, childhood trauma coming out at different times. And eventually pieced it all together through doing some coaching work with somebody only just over a year, about a year ago. And she very— when she first suggested this inner child thing, it was like, oh, you're going woo-woo on me now. But I could see after a little while of working with her and trusting her I began to see how this pieced together. Um, yeah, so that was all that— I'm running ahead, sorry. Yeah, but that was a little me and medium-sized me, the sort of teens, early 20s, and sort of that went into postnatal depression when I had my first daughter.

Yeah. Um, so I, I guess my inner child work would be kind of similar. This was about 14 years ago now. I did, I did a, a week with 2, 2 facilitators, for want of a a normal word, 2 leaders, um, and I think 6 or 7 of us. And this was— these were, uh, these weren't, um, adopted, or they weren't adopted people, right? Um, just people struggling with stuff in life. And we, we spent 2 days sharing our stories. Um, and we did the— we, we did that, the stories of how we had felt, what has happened to us in our lives and how we'd felt. And we got to a point where we then realized that we weren't our story.

Yeah.

Weren't our story. Um, and neither were we the story in our heads, and neither were we our behavior. So what, what leapt out for me is, is something that you said a couple of minutes ago when you, you said, um, you realized that this wasn't you. So there was— it was like a Jekyll and Hyde kind of thing, wasn't it, going on?

Yeah.

Carolyn and the Tasmanian Devil. And as you were describing it, I was thinking about the Tasmanian Devil actually. And then you said whirling dervish, so that's great. And then you said, what's the cartoon character? And then I thought, so that was a bit weird because that was the one in my head. So there's this separation between us, separation between us and Our story, our behavior, the and the the the the story in our head, and the events in our life, and our feelings, and our thoughts, and our trauma. So the whole thing is about for me is about that separation piece.

So.

you've seen me do the separating the, the diamond from the, the fist. And I don't know if you noticed this today, but I changed my logo today, so Thriving Adoptees is now a diamond.

Yeah, I did see it earlier. Yeah.

Um, so, um, because that's what it's about. Um, so what really worked for me was that separation piece. Um, what you said worked for you was the integration piece.

I, I had to separate to integrate.

Oh, okay.

So I was, I was a bit of a mess, and then once I separated out the inner child and tended to her needs, then I could integrate her and promise her I'd always listen to her. Um, And validate her, and then wrote a chapter about her to validate her. Um, yeah, but I kind of had to separate it out before I could put it together again. So there was that separation.

Ah, fascinating. So, um, you talked about separating out and then taking care of the needs. Is that what you said? Listening to it?

Yeah, so I suppose it was a 3-part. So first of all, the aware— the awareness and the separation out. And then being aware of this very distressed little child here, as I was reparenting her, the inner child would very much— I used to imagine her sitting on my knee, um, and I would talk to her, as you might say. I would just listen. Listening to what she was saying was me scribbling down at a huge rate just stuff that came into my head. And I realized that a lot of the phrases were coming over and over was, it's not fair, it's not fair, no one's listening to me. Nobody cares. And it was coming over and over and over. And it was like— this sounds a bit weird, but it was like a download. I just got this stuff and I just wrote it all out. And that was like me hearing what she was actually trying to say to me. And having heard what she was saying, my next step was to reassure her that that was okay. I was really pleased that she said it. I heard what she was saying. I was, um, accepting her for who she was. I was loving her, um, and I would like make that promise that I would always listen to her. I would— I, I have this kind of gut feeling that happens when I'm aware that I need to do some inner child work. It's when I react in a childish 5-year-old way to something that an adult should be behaving much differently to. So I might get very jealous about something, uh, like particularly if somebody wins a competition. Uh, it sounds awful, but I had to reckon, well, what's going on here? So it was online competition, there was a prize for the person who was most, you know, giving the most comments and support. I thought I'd done jolly well, and I didn't win it. I got really upset about the fact I hadn't won it. I'm thinking, this is a Facebook So, you know, competition. Why am I getting so upset? And then I realized it's that same inner it that I get. Um, and I just, I remembered that as a child I was never good enough. I was always being compared to Susan down the road that always did a lot better than me. And even when I got like 9 O-levels, I didn't get a grade A, so it wasn't good enough for my parents. And I was desperate to win. I was desperate to be, you know, recognized as being a success. And it comes out in these kind of ways where I have an emotional reaction to something that's way beyond what it should be. And I kind of go and talk to her and go, it's okay, it's safe to be there, it's safe to come second. It's all right.

So did you use the word reparenting?

Yeah, I did.

Okay, so what it sounds to me like is, is that when, when the Tasmanian Devil, um, your alter ego, went bananas as a, as a kid, um, you went bananas and then you were spent after 10, 10 minutes and you just went into a slump. Sometimes that, that Tasmanian Devil was met With, um, what was it met with?

Uh, uh, and, oh, you know, this looking down on me, disdain the fact that I behaved that way, and punishment.

Punishment. Yeah, punishment. It was, it was, it was met with this— with— I was going to say a lack of understanding.

Yes.

A lack of empathy.

Absolutely.

And judgment.

Yes.

So, so we get into— we're getting into this idea that there's something wrong with us for feeling the way that we do.

That needs fixing.

That needs fixing.

Yeah.

Um, and being misunderstood. Something for me here on this as well, actually. Being misunderstood. Um, and it was— so I don't know what— I was 8, 10. Was that— would that be medium-sized me, or—

yeah, yeah, just about between little and large.

Yeah, I was, I was 10, and I, uh, I, I ran in front of a, a little car van thing that pulled out of a side street and it, and it knocked me over. He was only doing like 5 miles an hour, something like that. Didn't really, didn't hurt, you know, I had a bruise, but that was it. And when I got home, my mum said, what do you want to do? Why did you do that for, you silly thing?

Or something like that.

And I felt like saying, I didn't do that on purpose. Well, you know, it's like this judgment. Well, like, okay, you know, don't, don't criticize me for— it was a mistake, you know.

I didn't—

and the reason, I, I think I probably mentioned that on the podcast before, but it's one of those things because it was very out of, out of character for my mum to do that. Very out of character. So you talked about your— did your mum criticize you? Did your mum and dad criticize you when you didn't get any A's at, uh, A dough level, or was that internal?

Mum and Dad, yeah, both, both my mum and dad. Yeah, you know, there wasn't the joy of having got 9. You know, I was excited I got 9, but there wasn't any celebration for getting 9. There was just the, oh, oh, that kind of, you know, that horrible, oh. You know what's coming next, but you didn't get anything.

Was that— I mean, how would you sum that up? Is it criticism or, I don't know, lack of celebration? How would you sum that up?

They had a very high bar for me to reach, and it's so impossible to reach. And then as an adult, I set that same bar for me as a mother and I couldn't reach it, and then I ended up having postnatal depression. And I, I've always been guilty of setting this amazing bar as a, as a wife, as a mother, as a whatever, and then really getting upset when I haven't managed to reach it. And I think that all came from those early years. And that doesn't necessarily only happen to people that are adopted, obviously, but that was certainly something that went through the whole of my childhood, whether it was my piano. I never got a distinction in my piano. I got grade 1 to 8 piano. I think that's pretty good. I got a merit several times. I never got a distinction. And I felt not good enough because I hadn't got a distinction and I hadn't gone on to do LRAM like my granny had. Now, she wasn't saying anything, but they were. And then as an adult, I decided to do the flute a few years ago. I was still so desperate only a few years ago before my mum died to prove to her that I could get a distinction. And the sad thing that happened is she died the day after my birthday, which was sad enough. 2 days later, I had the results of my Grade 1 flute, and I got a distinction.

Interesting.

And I was so upset Obviously I was upset my mum had died because I actually had a pretty good relationship with mum in many ways, but it was just I hadn't been able to tell her. But I finally got this distinction, I finally made the grade.

So listeners, on, on any scale here, what Carolyn has achieved, uh, puts her in probably the top, I don't know, 10%? Top 10 of, of her class. So like, and probably on the piano stuff, that would be even more like how many people get to— I don't, I don't know, because I had one, I had one piano lesson, one piano lesson, right? And the teacher had a heart attack.

Oh no.

And I never had a second one, right? It didn't happen during the lesson. This isn't right. But then I never bothered, um, I never bothered with that again. So I, I don't know, but I, in, in terms of probably the, you know, most, um, yeah. So by any normal measure, 9 O levels, grade 8 in piano, is brilliant. It is brilliant. But was this criticism Was this criticism like a constant theme from your parents?

It wasn't, it was done in— it was always comparing us, comparing me to this girl who was the daughter of their bridge partners, who was just the amazing, you know, the amazing, who always got everything and was good at everything, you know, and Mum used it She was trying to encourage me. I saw when I looked back, and I was able to see it looking back into how she was. She didn't have any blueprint of how to be a mum because her mum left her, sadly, at the age of 3. So she was trying her hardest to do it the best she could. I was very like a Bond trap child. I was organised, and apart from having a whistle, you know, every part of my life was pretty well organized as well, so very regimented, and this with these demands that you should meet these certain standards. And then being compared with this other girl, and it was always like, oh, but Sue managed to do this, so it was like, please just lift it up a bit, girl, you know. And she sort of said it in as if she was trying to encourage me, but how it came across to me, she could have got the silverware that Sue had just won and bashed me over Over the head with it. That was the effect that it had. Yeah, I think she was trying to do it so to encourage me to do better.

So I think, uh, I think you're right. I think she, she, she didn't have a role model, right? Yeah, she didn't have a role model, and she was doing the best that she can. Now, I was talking to my mentor, and this is— so I said 14 years ago I spent this week with, um, these, uh, these, uh, leaders, uh, Liz and Richard. I spoke to Liz a couple of weeks ago, and she, she came up She came up with something from the— she's not a Buddhist, but she came up with something from the Buddha. There is no justifiable anger, right? There's no justifiable anger because, um, what? No justifiable anger. And it, it really landed for me because me being angry about something It is like me punching myself in the face, right?

Yeah.

I'm— I was listening to an adoption podcast, um, and the, uh, the person— the, the, uh, the, the person said, I was very angry towards my Birth mother and my adoptive mother, and it was justified. And then her next question was, "How do I get over with it? How do I get over it?" So that if if if if we are, and I'm talking this is a lesson for me. Right, listeners, if you think— oh, and, and it's not— this isn't a lesson for you, Carolyn, right? This isn't a lesson for you, listeners. This is a lesson for me, right? I'm not preaching, right? If I have some stuff that I think is justifiable, if I have justifiable anger towards anything, then there's no way I'm gonna be able to get rid of that. It's like saying, um, it's like saying, I've got a, I've got a broken leg, so how can I go skiing? It's like that.

They are—

it's, it, it's like, um, given that Yeah, given that, I don't know, can you help me out? Does it— am I making any sense?

Yes, yes, I think I can see where you're going with it.

Uh, well, can you help me because I'm stuck for words?

Um, so you're saying if you're having the anger, then you can't move forward?

If I believe Yeah, if I believe the anger is justified, then I can't move forward. I have to deal— the anger has to be unjustified before I can move on.

Yeah.

So I've mentioned the story quite a lot, but it's the one that's coming to mind on this. Um, so, uh, this is the story of a guy called Wayne Dyer who is no longer with us. He was like a self-help guru kind of guy from the '60s, '70s. And he, he went to his— his father left him and his mum and his siblings. And he was— I think his father was an alcoholic. I mean, I don't— anyway, he left them to fend for themselves. And Wayne Dyer was angry as hell about that for decades. And you could say, justifiably, right? You could. It's not, it's not great, you know?

Like, exactly.

Yeah, it's not great. But he, he ended up at his father's grave, and he went there. It's a whole long, strange series of coincidences and stories. And he, he intended to pee on his father's grave. He ranted at his father. So he did a Tasmanian devil as a as a guy in his twenties or thirties. He ran. He shouted at his dad, who was dead. He started for two hours, and then he had a spontaneous forgiveness.

Yes.

And his and he says that this. Um, so his anger had shifted from justifiable to gone, and he's— and he credits that with the, the moment his life really took off. So if we go like this, this adoptee was, was talking to therapist. And it was for a podcast. And, but the therapist didn't say, well, for as long as you feel that anger is justifiable, you're going to find it very hard to move on. She just let it, let it go. She let it roll. And I just thought, this is nuts. Because justifiable anger is like, um, we're in the basket of a helium balloon and we're collecting more and more rocks. We're reaching outside, we're reaching outside the basket of the, of the helium balloon, right? And we're, and we're picking up rocks and we're putting more and more rocks into that basket. And, and, and we're never gonna fly, we're never gonna soar.

Yeah.

Because we're, we, um, our alter ego, our Tasmanian devil, is, is holding us back. That is justifiable. Yeah, it may be justifiable, but you know, how's that working for you?

Yeah, the picture I had as you were speaking is As if you had a yoke on your shoulders, you know, the old-fashioned yokes, and you were loading it down and down and down and down and down, but you were still walking on a bit like a— it's like a martyr under all this.

Yeah, yeah.

Heavy yoke.

Yeah, and you're not going to move very quickly, are you?

No, you're just going to get bogged down, aren't you?

It's, it's like me joining the SAS and having one of their 50-kilo rucksacks on the back. I had no chance. Yeah, I just thought I'd just fall, I'd just fall over. I'd be, I'd be on the, on the ground. My arms would be wiggling and my arms, legs would be wiggling, but I'd be going nowhere, right?

That's a good picture.

Uh, and, um, yeah, so it may be justifiable, but yeah, yeah, totally.

Why hold on?

But how, you know, yeah, but how's that working?

Yeah, so I really clicked there because It's just that it hurts us to hold on to it, doesn't it? It's, it's hurting us more than the person that did it to us.

Yes.

Who may not even be aware of it. Um, but by holding on to that, that we, we do ourselves a disservice. Letting go of it.

Letting go.

Very powerful.

And I'll tell you where I've done a lot of this, right? Because when you were talking about being misunderstood, That really gets me when I'm misunderstood. Yes, being misunderstood. So I made a gaffe, I did something wrong about 6, 7 years ago. I don't need to kind of go into it, but I had this conversation, it was with a business mentor, and he He wouldn't let me apologize, and I was like, "You can't." But he said there's something going on for you, Simon, and he knew that I was—he knew that I was adopted, and he'd had some trauma to do with his mum. I think his mum had was alcoholic, committed suicide or something like—not sure exactly what—but there was some serious, serious doo-doo went on with his. with his mum. So he'd had some, um, he'd had some therapy, and he was the one that said I needed to look at the adoption stuff. And, and he— and, and, and without that conversation, then I wouldn't have read The Primal Wound. If I hadn't read The Primal Wound, I wouldn't have gone— I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing today.

So series of steps, isn't it?

It's a series of steps. But yeah, feeling misunderstood Mm-hmm. Feeling misunderstood, like whether it's you, you and your, um, lack of A's, uh, or not getting any distinctions, or me getting, um, uh, yeah, me getting knocked over by that little— that— by that car and, and, and my mum's reaction to it. This whole thing about being misunderstood. Anyway, Um, so integration then. Take, take me back through the steps because you said there were 3 steps. So there was separating from your inner child.

Awareness and separation. Awareness, healing my inner child. Healing my inner child. And part of that was bringing her back in. I mean, I know that on the podcast you can't see it, but with my hands, I'm, I'm bringing one hand towards the other and holding it round, like cupping it round, and it feels protective, and it feels, I understand you, I love you, I care for you, you are part of me.

Yeah, and I love that word reparenting. So, um, one of my current mentors uses that word all the time in terms of reparenting, and, and we're parenting ourselves. So that idea that you have of the inner child Um, really resonated for me because she doesn't go into that much detail. And, and, and the, the mentor that I'm talking about isn't, isn't working in the adoption space, right? So she doesn't have— she doesn't bring the adoption lens to it. But you talking about it and separating out reparenting— so this is what, this is what we're doing. We are, um, we are re— We, we are parenting our inner child because we didn't get that support from our parent. Yes, we were growing up and we didn't get support from our parent, and we didn't get the support, and you didn't get the support from your teacher either, especially that, that one, that one teacher.

And then later life, I had a similar situation in the works. scenario where I wasn't being understood by, um, my boss. So similar idea, somebody in authority, or, uh, just very, very, but very similar, where I was just not being understood and I was being excluded. I mean, she could probably be struck off, really, but, uh, you know, I was very much— I was, I was like separate from everybody else. And I kind of feel now, looking again, looking back, I've done loads of this writing forgiveness letters and burning them. It's been helpful for me to forgive myself for stuff, forgive others for things. And I have a— I'm just wondering here, was I giving off that vibe? Because if I was feeling misunderstood before I even went into her office to speak about the matter, was she picking that up? But she'd already picked up and she was just reflecting that back at me. I'm wondering how much sometimes we give off what we actually get back, and when we heal ourselves, then we're, we're giving off completely different vibes to the people we're going to speak to. Not sure.

Ask me another— ask me the same question in a different way.

All help. Do you feel that how you're feeling about yourself when you go in to have a conversation which you know might be difficult, you think how you feel, the way you approach it, the way you feel about yourself when you walk in, might affect how the person you're talking to responds to you? Yes. I was picturing it, lots of hands, like you can't see it, there's lots of hands going.

So one of, one of my, uh, this mentor that I'm currently, um, working with, I'm doing a year-long of group courses with her, and if she has been on the podcast Uh, listeners, uh, so she is called Clare Diamond, and it's Clare without an I, and it's Diamond without an A. So C-L-A-R-E D-I-M-O-N-D. She talks about communication being— No, not that. That's another mentor. So I'll give you 2 actually. So a business coach that I had years ago used to say communication is the response that you get. Communication is the response that you get. So you can't change, and this was in a business context. So I had 5 or 6 staff. working with me in the business. So on the accountability stuff, she would say, well, they haven't done what you've asked, you need to change your communication, right? So does that make sense?

Yeah.

So I need to be more specific or I need to I need to explain more, I need to explain differently, I need to give the reason. I'm communication response that you get. So instead of beating my head against the brick wall about why they don't understand me, I should change how I communicate. So it's about taking accountability. So communication is the response you get. And the Which kind of goes with what you're saying, I think. I was doing it so I was the leader and they were my employees, but you're doing it the other way around. So same thing, I think. And the other one is, yeah, look at our response to their response. Yes. Our response to their response. So I say, um, so I, I write a letter to a— this is going back to what I did before, the adoption space. I write a letter to a school or an email to a school or a proposal for a school saying this, and then they, they don't I set a proposal out and they don't respond, and then I get upset about their lack of response, right? So what's my response to their response?

Yep, I'm smiling.

Yeah, um, so, so that's it. So the whole thing, the, the, the strapline for the podcast is healing, inspiration, and empowerment For adoptees. So the empowerment piece is, okay, we're, we're taking our power back, we're realizing our power. So if we're not getting what we want, we're not going to get angry about not getting what we want, we're going to do something different.

Yes.

For ourselves. So it, it, it's, it's about us. It's, it's about us. Yes, we're not putting that—

Yeah, so I stopped being angry with what's coming at me. I was realizing I needed to change inside. By doing that inner child work, things have been so much different. I mean, I do sometimes feel misunderstood, but I can't remember the last time I felt that anger. Because I'm realizing way before we get to anger that there's an issue with my inner child. And it's usually, for me, a gut feeling of discomfort, sort of anxiety, and a mental picture. I see— I, I tend to see things in pictures very much, and I'll see this little, little child beating her fists against the floor.

It's not Yeah.

And if I'm aware that kind of thing is going on, there's that sort of vibe around, but I will take time though. I take time out to look at where my emotions are coming from, what's actually happening here, deal with that, and then go into meeting or, or just general life, um, having dealt with it. And so I'm coming over, coming over from a completely different Point of view then, and getting a much better response, surprisingly. Yeah, not surprisingly.

Um, I, I had a thought. Uh, so you, you're talking about, uh, in a word, you talking about journaling? Yeah, is that, is that the right word?

Kind of, yeah.

What would you call it?

I didn't really journal for the inner child stuff. I literally just got a piece of A4 paper and just started writing. It's very scratchy. Scrappy. And it's not a— I don't do it regularly, you know. Some people do a regular journal. I do gratitude regularly. I do an achievement book regularly to remind myself that I'm doing okay if I'm feeling a bit low. But journaling, I don't do on a regular basis. It tends to be if there's something specific I need to look at. So maybe it's sporadic journaling.

Yeah. Well, I think that's, that's your wisdom, right? Like, a lot of people make— try and make wisdom a strategy. Yeah, that, that's what most teachers do. Most teachers do. So they have an idea, it works, so they make— they, they, they, they say, this is the idea.

Yeah.

So the— what— turning wisdom into a strategy. So, you know, it's— I heard a fantastic podcast on this this morning. It was a guy who is into breathing.

Yes, that's very popular at the moment. Breathing.

Breathing. Yeah, it's very popular. We can't live without it.

Wim Hof, by any chance?

It wasn't Wim Hof. It was, uh, it was an American guy rather than a Dutch guy. Um, but he said that he went— sorry, yeah, he's into breathing. His book's called Breathe, I think. And he, he said he went to India and none of them do yoga. Right, because their practice is integrated into what their daily habits— it's integrated, it's, it's not separate from it. So the only people—

I know, yeah, it's just an everyday ritual that they've just carried on.

It's not, it's not even an effort. It's embedded in their life. It's embedded in what they do. So for example, like, I swim. So my breathing happens or is different during my swimming. I'm doing the swimming, breathing. Like, um, so that's, I think that's one of those things you, we, you did something from wisdom. And I asked if it was a ritual and it wasn't, it was a wisdom thing, but wisdom becomes strategy. And I was thinking about this the other day, getting stuff down, getting stuff out of your head onto a page.

Yeah.

And it struck me that similar is getting stuff out on the page, then we can look at it. It's, it's almost like talk therapy, isn't it?

Externalizing.

We're, we're, yeah, we're, we're externalizing our thoughts either on a piece of paper if we're kind of self-coaching, or with a therapist or a coach if we are. And it's the, it's this, it's the same thing. And that's when we see that maybe our beliefs are wrong, right?

We see what's going on inside, don't we, in a clearer way. I, I use paint for the same, same thing, and it's very much— well, I just say I throw emotions onto canvas, and if I haven't got the words, I'll get the acrylic paints And it's a very Jackson Pollock style, and you literally chuck, and it's so therapeutic. And I choose the colours, so if I'm feeling, you know, it might be blues, blacks, dark reds, or if there's something really upsetting me. And I'm going to make— I'm going to hopefully going to make this into a kind of workshop for releasing emotional, you know, emotions around trauma. But it's really at the beginnings at the moment. Because I find that as a release. Yes, that's releasing. There's another word for it— free, freeing. And it's externalizing. I don't think it matters so much how you're externalizing, providing it's a safe way of doing it. For other people, it might be going onto the golf course and onto the range, you know, the range, and just doing loads of golf balls. But just some way of getting out what's inside so that you can see more clearly. In my mind, it's like the, the waters are muddied, and by doing that, the water's become more clear, and I've got clarity about what's happening.

Yeah.

Does that make any sense?

Yeah.

I hope so. Oh, it's many pictures. I've just been talking pictures.

What if Our nature's our clarity.

Yeah, so our core nature is clarity and the muddy waters is the stuff, you meaning like the trauma and the—

Yeah.

Things that happen. Yes, and we're getting rid of the, the silt.

Well, I disagree slightly on that point. So, um, I think what happens to us as children is we let the water settle. So I, I— and the metaphor I've heard on this is a snow globe.

Oh yes, I have heard of that. Yeah, yeah, just letting that go down.

Yeah, so I— you talked about 10 minutes of Tasmanian devil and then— yeah, and then— yeah, and then it's— then it's gone. I would imagine, um, 20 minutes later you weren't beating yourself up about being angry.

No, I just felt completely Completely peaceful. Yes, I was confused as to why I was angry, but I wasn't upset with myself for being angry.

And that's the, the difference between us as kids and us grown up. Well, me, okay. So, so I would worry and then worry about worrying.

Yeah, yeah.

Rather than worry and then let it go. Or you don't let it go, do you? Because what's to let go of? Um, we're— yeah, um, here's one for you. This is— this scrambled my brain, uh, when I came about it. I came up with it last year.

Okay.

Is the belief that there are such things as self-limiting beliefs in itself a self-limiting belief?

Well, that's an interesting one, isn't it? I've dealt with a load of self-limiting beliefs, but yeah, I've never thought of it in that way, Simon.

We cling to them.

Hmm, that's something you can grab hold of and you can challenge them and change them.

But what's it made of?

Thoughts, really. Yeah, values.

So they're not things, are they?

They're not things?

No.

Trying to make them tangible to deal with them, maybe.

But we give them, we give them more credibility.

Yeah.

You make a thing out of the, uh, that wasn't a thing. I didn't even know that was a thing. We say that, don't we? I didn't even know that was a thing.

Is that a thing? I didn't know it was a thing, but it helped me to know it was a thing. Because it kind of helped me to look into what was going on in the past and where did those stories come from and why do I think that and who said that to me and how old was I, was I below 7 when I really didn't question anything?

So what about Wayne Dyer, what happened to his anger?

I'm feeling very, um, naive now because I'm not quite sure who he is.

Okay, well I told you about him going to the To his— yes, so his anger. So what happened to it?

It dissipated.

Yeah, it went, didn't it? But wasn't it just a belief? Wasn't it a belief? Just a belief. I'm saying just a belief, you know.

Yeah, it was something that he couldn't get past.

Well, he— it was— he couldn't get past because he thought there was something there. It was justifiable anger. The, the idea for me, it was an idea of, you know, you know, it's clinging on. He's clinging on to that. He's clinging on to that anger, thinking that anger Well, because he never questioned it. So nobody's ever said to him, you know, this anger towards your, um, towards your dad, Wayne, how's that working for you?

No, nobody said that to him.

Nobody said that to him. Or if they did, he said, well, my anger's justified.

Yeah, and you hear that a lot in the world, don't you?

Yeah. And, uh, and, and the shrink having the conversation with the adoptee— all right, it's a podcast, not a session. I wonder whether that— whether the shrink said afterwards, how, how's that justifiable anger working for you?

Yeah, yeah, you want to say Yeah. Do you want to keep hold of it, or would you rather let it go?

Yeah. What is it? Like, let, let it go— this is a bit weird, right? But let it go— what is it?

It's beyond me.

Well, it's a thought. It isn't, it isn't beyond you. I asked you, I asked you, and you said— I think I said, what, what do you think, what do you think beliefs are made of? And he said thought. So it's not beyond you.

Feelings and, and past experience and what sort of stuck with you that you've never—

none of those, but none of those are who you are, right?

No, exactly, because I've been able to change them. So therefore I'm somebody different. Yeah, my behavior is different, my thought patterns are different. I value myself and love myself in a way I never did. So I, yeah, I moved into a more healthy way of living and being and thinking. Good on you.

Good on you. So what's the question that I've not asked you? Any questions next?

Or how are you doing now? Yeah.

Well, yeah, how are you doing now?

I think I've mentioned that quite a bit, but I'm doing a lot better now. So I'm now using— trying to use words carefully now— but taking those past experiences and all the things I've discovered along the way over these last few years, I'm beginning to hopefully— and I know it's happening— but helping other people with it. Doing a little bit of the thinking and getting it out there. So I'm writing it down, and which is such a vulnerable thing to do, to sort of go, here I am, to the world. But it means that I'm connecting on a deep level with others that struggle with these issues. And helping them to take some action in their own lives, to move forwards in their own life, maybe to see things they've never seen before. And that's, that's my next stage. That's my mission, to reach as many people as possible with various bits of my life that have been very challenging and very difficult, really writing the book that I would have liked to have read at the time that would have helped me.

So where can people find out more, Carolyn?

Um, well, my books are on Amazon, and I have a Facebook group. I'm on Twitter and on Instagram. I think I sent you a few of the links. I'm on most places, including TikTok. We're having a go on TikTok.

Having a go on TikTok. Brilliant. So they're all— all these things are in the show notes, uh, listeners, because I know that you're driving or you're doing other stuff. If you're like me, you're ironing, you know, ironing or walking the dog when you're listening to a podcast. Um, thank you, Carolyn.

It's been, uh, yeah, it's been a lovely conversation.

I've enjoyed it. And, uh, I'd encourage you to, uh, check out what Carolyn's doing, listeners. Okay, and, um, thank you very much for coming on the show.

Thank you, Simon. Really enjoyed it.

Thank you, listeners. We'll speak to you very soon. Cheers. Bye-bye.