Letting It Go With Rachel Medefind

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Rachel, Rachel Medifind. Looking forward to our conversation today, Rachel. It's the, it's the first interview of, of the year. It's the first interview of 2026, so I'm honored that you're, you're here to, to spend that time with me.

I'm very glad to be able to.

Yeah, she's a star. She's— Rachel's joining us. I'm just in my office. Rachel's joining us from Guatemala, so she's, uh, she's, she's definitely got a more exotic location than North Yorkshire. And I appreciate you making time on this because you're away with family for a New Year break. Yeah?

Yeah, we've had a little bit of a break here, but we'll also be working and schooling here. We're going to spend a few weeks here, and so we're excited about that.

Yeah, fantastic. So listeners, Rachel, she's the director of Caiphos. Institute for Family-Centered Healing and Health. And, uh, she's also a mum. One of your daughters, is it Eden? I think I've written down here, uh, joined your family through adoption, and she's, uh, from Ethiopia. Uh, and she's—

That's right.

And she's 17, right?

That's correct. Yeah, well done.

I, I can read my own notes. That's the first, uh, That's the first achievement of, of today.

Yeah.

Um, so, uh, I was gonna ask you about Thriving, um, but just looking at, you know, thinking about your, your role, you, you talked, uh, it says that it's the Institute for Family-Centered Healing and Health. So why don't we dive into healing first? Because that's clearly a big theme within Thriving or Is it, is it, is it a step on the, on the right way to step up on the way to thriving? How do you see healing and thriving and the interplay between those 2?

That's a great question. There'd be a lot to explore there, right? But definitely, I think that healing is something that probably most of us are experiencing in one way or another across our lives. And From, from the vantage point that I have, I see that as because we experience wrongdoing from, from wrongdoings of others, as well as the things that we do that we ought not to do. And, you know, life can just throw us a lot of, a lot of curveballs, and those are often things that require require for us to heal because they impact us in negative ways. And so there are many supports and ways that we can heal, but I see it as part of a pathway toward something in particular, which is the health and the flourishing of the human being in the context of others. And so healing doesn't happen— we don't think about healing just in isolation as something that must be done by itself, but rather as part of an entrance into or a growth into a fuller life, which is a life of health. And as your podcast is named, a thriving life, a life that allows us to flourish as a human being and in relationship with others.

Yeah. Beautiful. Thriving and flourishing seem to kind of go together, um, for, for, for me. When I think of healing, I think of the, the cliché, right? So I think of some clichés are clichés because they're true, and then some clichés aren't true, right? Um, And one of the clichés around healing is that time, time is the greatest healer. I mean, to what extent do you agree with that, Rachel?

That's a great question. I, I would actually love to hear your thoughts about that as well, Simon. I do think time is a great balm overall, both to allow us to To whether you're thinking of like, you know, calming down from something or allowing us to mend. But also in, in when you think about growth itself and change within a human being, it's time is, is the essential ingredient, right? When, when we want to change, it rarely happens overnight. It requires, it requires an incremental process that usually takes longer than we'd like.

Uh.

So, so I, I, I think maybe what you're getting at is the limitations of that, that time by itself does not allow for healing if, if action is not taken on the part of the individual in particular, then it's unlikely that time itself will be a cure-all. And that's very important to bear in mind. But time is also a balm of sorts. But let me know what you think.

Yeah, I love the word balm. I love the word balm. I love the word soothe. So I'm quite a tactile kind of guy, you know, I feel stuff more than— have you heard of NLP? You know, this idea of us being a mixture of video, audio, and kinesthetic. Have you heard this kind of stuff? Yeah, so leaders tend to be visual people, right? Or more visual. We all have a preference for each of those three ways of taking information, taking in information, and sharing it. So if we like it, I think you return. I'm waving my hands around, right? So if I'm waving my hands around, around on Zoom or on a conversation in real life, and I see somebody. Following my hands, I, I, I know that they are a visual person. You know, they're taking a lot more in, in, um, taking a lot more in visually than perhaps audibly, through their ears, orally, or, or through kinesthetic, through feelings. So I'm quite strong on kinesthetic. So if you tell me, if you talk to me about soothing and balming and calming, you know, I'm, I'm into my zone, right? I'm, I'm into— I mean, into my zone there. Uh, in, in terms of the limitations, you talked about the limitations of time, and I think you said that time in itself— and I'm, I'm totally with you on that. Uh, I, I heard a metaphor for this a couple of weeks ago, I think, And it was a— the metaphor was an apple. So it starts off in spring and it's blossom, and then it becomes its little appley creature, you know, appley fruit, and it grows. And then at some point it drops off the tree if it's not picked. So the, the, uh, the, the— it takes time, but the dropping of the apple happens in an instant, you know.

Yeah.

Or we think of the dropping of an apple or the dropping of a penny, you know. I think of, um, I think of change. Change in itself doesn't heal. Sorry, time in itself doesn't heal. It's the change in, in that time that heals. And the biggest change happens in an instant when the apple drops off the tree. So the ripening takes time, but the moment that the apple drops or that the penny drops that there is an insight, that happens.

That's a good— yeah, that's good. And I think sometimes As I'm thinking of my own experiences, that kind of instantaneous shift is something that you experience as you— it's almost like an epiphany within yourself where you realize something, something is happening or something has shifted, and it really energizes a different way of living, but especially a different way of perceiving. And I don't know if you often talk about that theme, Simon, but the idea of how we, how we see, um, is, um, so, so guides so much of how we experience life, right? How we see and interpret the world around us is such a huge part of whether we, for instance, experience life as primarily one of, of kind of a place that we are unsafe in and we have to continually look out for ourselves and fend for ourselves? Or is it a place that we anticipate that people are offering, extending goodwill to us and we to them? And then we go out into the street and we literally experience a different kind of street because of what we expect and how we view even facial expressions and interpret the movement of someone's body and the way they answer us. And, um, that's a whole area of, of fascinating, um, thought. But some of what happens, I think, in healing is that our perception begins to shift and we begin to see things in a new way, um, and have a different way of, um, interpreting our lives and the world around us. Tell me what you think about that.

I think you're spot on. I think you're spot on.

Yeah.

And Uh, so rather than diving deeper on onto that at a kind of a top level, I thought perhaps we could dive into some specifics, some specific— some of your most specific healing moments where there has been that shift in your perspective.

Great. Okay. I love that. Um, I would definitely say that for me, one of the most consequential choices of my life, and this has not been only one time, but many times, although I can think of a few times that have been most especially pivotal, um, is the choice to forgive. And, um, you know, forgiveness is, is a, a position of a heart going from primarily, um, having feelings of ill will toward another person toward one of actually desiring good for that other person and allowing your heart to release the resentment, the anger, the hurt that has so dominated your experience, my experience, and extend the gift. of forgiveness to another individual. And in my experience, what's so remarkable about that is how incredibly freeing it is. How when I, after holding on for so long to piles of hurt from an individual that has been very impactful in my life, decide that I want to release that burden and offer to them the empathy of, of seeing them as another human being, a vulnerable human being, and extend the gift to them of forgiveness. What I find in myself is that it, it, it acts as a powerful relief to me, a powerful gift to myself. To be able to let go of those things. And in that, it allows me to truly, over time— and this is where the time metaphor comes back in again— to begin to really view that person differently, and so many aspects of my life differently. I would say it, it's— It opens a door to a kind of love, I guess, that, um, I can only experience when I respond to the wrongdoing of others, um, not just with sort of an eye for an eye approach, uh, but rather, um, a willingness to offer mercy. And in it, I receive a kind of mercy.

Yeah, I was gonna ask the wrong— I was gonna bring the conversation back round to the ongoing thing, um, that you mentioned earlier on, but you did that, so you're way ahead of me on that. Um, can you give us an example of a particular time in your life where this was pivotal? I love that word. Yeah, use this word pivotal.

Yes, absolutely. Just for the sake of privacy, I won't say who this was, but there was an individual in my life who Uh, was— I did, I did, uh, I would say so. I bore a lot of hurt, and I— it was impacting my life, as hurt often does, in more ways than you expect it to, uh, impacting more of my relationships than I, I would have thought as, as an adult emerging into adulthood and into married life and so on. And, um, I, you know, I— from— I, I am a Christian, and I, um, believe, uh, that I am to forgive. We are taught as Christians that, um, we have received such great and unwarranted forgiveness from God and that we in turn are to forgive. And yet, um, I, I don't even know if I fully recognized how much I was holding on to forgiveness— unforgiveness. But, um, there was a time where I was actually driving In a car with my husband, and my children were in the back. They were little at the time, and I had had a very difficult conversation, and I think I had a realization that this individual was not going to change like I had so much hoped, because what I wanted was for a wonderful restoration of relationship, much more than I was receiving. And it became clear to me that I needed to let go of it. There was no other real realistic option. And I wasn't even directly pursuing forgiveness, Simon. But what ended up happening to me was over the next few weeks, I felt this profound release of, I think, that individual, but also with it, everything I had been harboring. And it was like this. these burdens just came off of me. And over time, as I thought about that individual, I started to miss them, which was something I hadn't felt in quite some time. And I also started to feel affection for them and even empathy in a way that I would never have— I could not have fabricated on my own. And Ultimately, it not only allowed for a wonderful restoration of our relationship and the ability for me to even just extend so much warm feelings toward that person in my heart, but it, it sort of rippled out into so many other relationships where forgiveness became something I knew I could do. It became something I knew I could do in small offenses and in large ones, and it really positioned me for a life of forgiveness. And that's why when I write about forgiveness, I write about the idea of the practice of forgiveness, because I think we can sometimes think of forgiveness as something like— something— well, we can think of it a lot of different ways, sometimes even as a questionable activity. And, and there are many things to understand about forgiveness, what it is and what it isn't. But, but, but I think sometimes we think of forgiveness as a once and done. You do it and then, oh, I did it, but I don't feel anything. But actually, for myself, I see practice as some— forgiveness is something that I need to do each day. And that's to extend, to release hurts and release a sense of entitlement to holding on to resentments, which I have a certain right to. Um, and letting go of those things and, um, to offer instead forgiveness as a way of life, um, to others, but, um, as a function, a practice of my own way of life.

Yeah, the, the metaphor that came to mind as you were sharing that was that holding on to a grudge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. It's—

that's right.

It's just, it just doesn't do us any favors whatsoever. The other one that I sometimes think about in terms of forgiveness is, do you remember a guy called Wayne Dyer? Do you remember a guy called Wayne Dyer? You might—

Not offhand. Tell me.

Well, he was a He was a very mindset kind of a guy who, in the '60s, who became far more of a spiritual guy in the '70s. And as he got older, he got more into understanding who we are than looking at mindset and our psychology. And he bore a lot of ill feeling towards his father who had left him and his siblings and his mum to fend for themselves. And he— there's this great video of him being interviewed on this, on this subject of— he was By a very strange series of events, he ended up at his father's grave, and he'd gone there to, to pee on the grave. And he ranted at his father's gravesite for, for 2 hours, and then he had a spontaneous forgiveness experience. So it was And he credits it with a complete change of his, his impact in the world, his, his, his fortunes, the whole, the whole thing. Because as you were saying, it weighs heavy. It weighs heavy on us holding on to this stuff.

Wow. Wow, what a powerful example. And you just wonder in that story if he was just aching to release that burden of unforgiveness and didn't even know it, right? Yeah. Because what he thought he needed to do was to hold on to the resentment and to take revenge even upon, you know, the dead.

Yeah.

And which is exactly what resentment, how it causes us to think, right? We can all relate to that in our own way. But what's so remarkable, and I'll just mention this briefly, Simon, is that so much recent research bears out the powerful effects of forgiveness. And so I I, I feel for foster and adoptive families, for adoptees, and for all humans, because we all experience hurt. Forgiveness ought to be a centerpiece intervention option, because of course it would only be good for those who desire to pursue it or interested in it, but are struggling to do so. But for those who do desire to experiencing some of these things that we're talking about, forgiveness has such profound benefits for ourselves, right? Like when we stop drinking that poison, what, what research shows is that, you know, forgiveness lowers anxiety and depression. It increases our sense of life satisfaction, as we've already talked about. It improves our relationships. And it even is connected to physical health. So you see all these sort of physical health benefits as well. So it really does, going back to the concept of healing, forgiveness really does help us to heal. And one of the key things that it does, I think, is that it helps release a sort of stuck process within the mind, which is ruminative thinking. And I can't remember, Simon, if you and I have talked about this before when we had our conversation earlier, but The idea of ruminative thinking is that we think over and over and over again, just almost impulsively, negative thoughts. They tend to be like tinged with a sense of unfairness, constant unfairness toward ourselves. And this thinking, whether it's about one individual or a series of events, or whatever it is tends to dominate our thinking. And we just find ourselves thinking about these negative things over and over again. And then that just drives so many mental health problems, anxiety, depression. Most mental health disorders include ruminative thinking as a feature of the disorder. And so to forgive sort of allows that burden of ruminative thought to be lifted from us. It doesn't mean that we never think negative thoughts again, of course, and that's why a practice of forgiveness is so valuable. But I think it— we no longer feel compelled in that same impulsive way to continue to live in a cycle of downward negative thinking. Um, which is driven by, by resentment and hurt.

Yeah, I, I was thinking of a negative spinning vortex as you were talking about this. Um, you also said ruminating, uh, and, uh, I, I saw an old post, uh, I was looking through my— the pictures on my phone when I was on the flight back From, uh, from the skiing holiday. Um, and I, and I, I got— I found a quote that I posted a couple of years ago from Rumi, right? So I think he's ruminating. Um, and, uh, so I'll read it to you and I'd be keen to hear what you, what you make of it. Uh, so here it is. Yesterday I was clever, so I wanted to change the world. Today I am wise, so I wanted to change myself. And that's, that's from Mr. Rumi. I don't know what his first name was.

Hmm. Which of course is the one thing I would say, tell me what you think about this, that actually enables us to really make a positive change in and in our relationships with others in the world is that something good is stirring in our own hearts in such a way that allows us to extend that goodness to others. And it's just so very difficult to do when we're constantly overcome By that mental replaying of, of offenses.

Yeah. It's the whole— it's a complete reversal, isn't it? It's a, it's 180-degree turnaround from, uh, how I want the world to be to how I want to be.

That's right.

A revolution, I guess.

Hmm. That's right.

Yeah. I, um, I came up with this because we're doing this on the 5th of January. This is— I came across— I came across this with this word a couple of years ago called a resolutionary, right? So a resolutionary is somebody that has a New Year's resolution. And they kind of stick to that. And how long are they going to stick to that for? How long are they going to be resolute in, in their, in, in their change? Uh, how long am I going to be resolute in what I'm doing, the change that I'm looking at within? Most, because most of us don't do that. I mean, I think most of the, most of us most of the time are looking for the world to change rather than for ourselves to change. Hmm.

And it's very hard to change ourselves. Wow. Which I think of what you're part of, what you're getting at. I like that. I like that idea of, uh, resolutionary. But, but how, how does one do it? Especially like you said, here we are. Here we are in January, and there are so many wonderful things we aspire to. But maybe you and I— you just had a birthday, and I'm a mom of a now adult child. So we've lived long enough to know it can be very difficult to follow through. To me, that's why I especially want to think about these things, like forgiveness, for instance, as a practice, something that I'm I'm practicing. I'm seeking to grow in. I am exactly where I am in the position I find myself in my growth, in my need to grow, which I do. And at the very same time, I have the capacity to grow. And there are things that I'm invited into that support that, like forgiveness. And I can, on any given day, I can choose to, um, take a, take a minute and, and extend that forgiveness and receive forgiveness, receive forgiveness from others, receive forgiveness from God. Um, and, uh, that begins to form a life, doesn't it?

Yeah. For me, there's a fantastic, uh, counterpoint here and, and a, a ratio, a question, a, a balance. I'm, I'm not quite sure what it is, but This idea of practice and epiphanies, right? So for me, epiphanies do a lot of the hard work for us. The more profound the epiphany, the more the work is, is done for us. And yeah, We have to keep on moving forward. We have to keep on practicing, as you say. Um, as you say, right, practice— it's a daily practice. So how do you see that? How do you see that interplay, that interplay between, uh, something that comes to us, um, and something that we Do.

I love it that you bring that up, Simon, because I think anytime you talk about habit formation and a New Year's resolution, we do have the capacity to form new habits and to just take one step forward after another and to anticipate that if we persist in doing those things over time, They will make a profound difference in our lives. And, you know, it— the old way of thinking about, about character, who we are as a person, or who we are becoming, our character as it's formed, is that it is essentially habit. It is, it is the sort of collection of habits that form us into who we are. And so habits are so vital. And yet at the very same time, I think what you're touching on is that there's an experience or experiences as human beings that are essentially revelation. It's the, it's the encounter with something that's sort of beyond ourselves that is wonderful, that is, that is bigger than how we were thinking, that is new or just at the right time. such that it informs us in a way that we let it in, right? And we can— we take it in as a sort of a precious idea, something that is just— that we're ready for or that is suitable for the moment. And it's that powerful and living idea that— sort of feeds our— us as a human being and generates and fuels the activity that we're seeking to do. And so it's not just this motorized activity of the new year, right? We set into motion a new habit, or we determine to do this thing, and sort of like a robot we carry forward. But actually, an epiphany is something that enters our heart. Um, and there's some turning within a person. Tell me if that's kind of what you're thinking of, but there's something that, that fuels in a powerful way, um, from the outside and empowers a person from within.

Yeah, I, I think this notion that, uh, an epiphany is a revelation is spot on. Putting two of you, putting two of your words together, an epiphany is a revelation, and it's revealed, it's revealed to us. Um, I came up with this word on the plane yesterday coming back from— not yesterday, day before— coming back from Innsbruck, and It, it was, um, a heart, a heart wave. A heart wave, right? So it's not a brain wave, it's a heart wave. And, and what I mean by a heart wave is— and that's another word for an epiphany.

Mm-hmm.

So a brave way— a brain wave might be a new idea, but a heart wave Is an epiphany, and, and that is revealed to us.

Hmm. Oh, we—

and for me, we sometimes talk about this on the, on the podcast as— and, and it's probably actually a better metaphor than the apple falling off the tree. I, I talk about hanging out at the bus stop for insights, hanging out at the bus stop for epiphanies, or hanging out at the bus stop for— using this new word that I came up with— heart waves, right? So we, we can't make the bus happen, so we can't make the bus arrive, um, Even in the UK, buses run on timetables, but they don't always run to timetables. There's no timetable in this metaphor. We don't know when they're going to occur. The best that we can do is hang around at the bus stop, because when it happens, when the bus comes around the corner, when the insight bus comes around the corner, it It always, it always happens. That always happens in an instant.

It strikes me, Simon, that tomorrow in the Christian tradition is Epiphany, and that marks the time or the season when the wise men saw a star in the east. And they made the decision to follow it. And following your metaphor, they weren't even— I presume they weren't anticipating what was to unfold. But it's, it's thought that they were those among those who did look to the heavens and looked to the stars and studied them and paid attention to them. And So I love what you're bringing forward, which is this idea that, that there's an having an openness to what might be revealed to us in the, in the story of the Epiphany. Of course, it's the revealing of the Christ who came to offer himself to the world as the Savior of the world. And it's that opening of the heart to this prospect of this wonderful redemption of the human life and the human experience that then allows for that, that entrance that, that then can generate so much. And so whether we're talking about a different perception, a different way of seeing a person that might shift our relationship with them, but maybe most especially shift our ability to relate to others more generally with a sense of goodwill toward another person. Or if we're talking about the meaning of life and how do we make sense of life, that openness to receive a revelation, I think, is such a pivotal position for the human heart to be in, in order for it to occur.

Yeah. And following the star was the practice, right?

That's right. Following the star was the practice.

That's right. Yeah.

Follow the star was the practice.

Good.

I was thinking that too. So I like it that you said that. That's right. There was, there was an action that had to happen, huh?

Yeah. And there was a decision. They spotted the star and they made the decision to follow it, right? So there was a decision, there was an act of volition, right? Decision, volition. And then there was the practice itself of doing it. And that's how— but they— were they following some sort of gut? Were they following their instinct? Did they know what was going to happen? Um, and, and the— so the next metaphor that pops into— or then, yeah, the next story that pops into my head is the, the, um, the Indiana Jones, uh, stop, you know, taking the— going across the stones across the chasm.

Yeah.

You know? Yeah. So that you, you— what is one— the stones, the stepping stones are revealed one at a time, um, and only make sense looking backwards. That's, uh, Steve Jobs, the Apple guy. He said that, you know, talk— talked about that, following our hearts, and it only makes sense in retrospect.

That's so true. I think I, I I really feel like actually to me, I— this is the way I've been thinking about it recently, Simon, is I feel like the small steps that I feel called to do that in some ways feel inconsequential, I recognize that they're directed at an important change that needs to happen in my life or as I seek to support my children and help guide them could benefit their lives. But in the moment, the activity, the, the actual step, the practice, or the habit is very small, and the ability for that to make a difference is going to be invisible at first, absolutely invisible. And that is why what is actually entailed in the taking of the step is a measure of faith, a measure of anticipation. That something good will come of this, even though I can't, I can't see it yet. I can't see it in its fullness. But I can, I can like those, those little— that metaphor you were giving of sort of the next step coming as you're literally falling forward to it is, I think, a very integral part of the journey of life. As we, we have a sense that there's a certain kind of reality and we want to live toward that reality, toward what is good. And as we do, we're kind of doing it one little step at a time. And it's only as we land our foot after making a decision to take a step that we realize there was something sturdy underneath. That's when we can become assured that there was something sturdy underneath, and then we have to do it again. And, um, which makes the whole journey, um, a journey of faith, uh, because, because we can't see the fruit that we desire. We can't see the outcome we desire immediately.

Yeah. And I think so much of our education is about knowing all the steps beforehand. So the metaphor that's popping into my head is chemistry, chemistry lessons. So I was in the bottom set, you know, my chemistry was the worst, you know, I was in the bottom quartile, right, of the school. So they gave us the toughest teacher because we were the ones that needed to buck our ideas up, right, in chemistry. And I think that's why it always stays with me, because he was a nasty guy, this guy, this teacher. So, but a chemistry experiment, you know, we had to kind of— we had to write down a list of the equipment that we were going to need, and then we had to write down or follow the process. No, it wasn't quite like that. No, we were given, we were given a list of the equipment that we're going to use, and then we were given a process to finish, and we're going to do this to do this to do this to do this, and we're given a sequence. And, and, and that's how a lot of our education is based, you know, and that's how a lot of people sell stuff to us these days, you know, like courses. People go on courses online. I've done loads of these courses, and people— these, these, this sort of teacher, um, I'm not talking about teaching in school now, but this sort of online marketeer sees, sees our confusion and, and says, you know, I, I was confused, I wanted to, to do this, I didn't know what to do, I kept on failing, then I found, then I found the 7 Steps to, and if you spend this money or this time with me, I will reveal to you how to XYZ, right? And that plays into the way that we were taught in, in chemistry experiments. And we think— and there's a relief in that because we're scared or we're uncertain and— or we're, we're worried about faith and we think somebody's going to give us the step-by-step process. And life isn't like that. I, you know, when I, when I sometimes do talks for adoptive parents, they'll say, just tell me what to do. And I'll say, well, I don't. It's an art, not a science.

Yes, I, I couldn't overemphasize the importance of just You know, taking, taking a step forward, whether the question in your heart be one of— I'm trying to understand what's, what's true and the meaning in life. Or if you're talking about, is, can I, can I really form this new habit? Or can I really be a person who would choose a life of forgiveness, or can I really be a good parent? And that, that it's in taking a step forward that we, we, the confirmation comes. And I think that's what you're speaking to, is that so much of learning actually has to come Through, um, an, an action and an encounter of some kind, uh, that, that otherwise we might know something as an idea, a prospect, but, uh, we don't know it really.

Yeah, it, it's the, um, knowledge to wisdom thing, an idea to wisdom. Like, like Rumi said, right? Being, being, being wise. Is it, is it more about the faith? I think it's more about the faith, isn't it? Taking one, just taking it one, one step at a time and not being scared about the fact that you don't know the, um, the, the step after After the next step, you don't need to have all ten steps. You just need to take the next one. I I mentioned you know I've come back from skiing, and I hadn't been skiing for ten years, but I have been skiing since I was thirteen. And few people said to me, "Well, are you going to be okay?" Or you know what? Are you going to be a bit rusty? What's going to happen? Da da da da. And I thought, oh, I'll be okay. And then, then I was. And then a couple of— it came back to me straight away. But skiing is a feeling thing, it's not a thinking thing. So my body knew. And our bodies do know this stuff because it's— what do they say? Muscle memory, isn't it? Right? Um, right, like riding a bike.

That's right.

But, but our— but, but it's our doubting brains, you know? Like, it's our, it's our brains that think we can't, but, but our bodies have the muscle memory And that does the hard— that does the— well, that makes it— doesn't do the hard work in this case. The muscle memory does it for us.

That's right.

It's just our brain that gets in the way.

Well, it's such a great gift to have muscle memory. It means that We can work very, very hard in the beginning, which you had to do, for something that seemed impossible to become something that you could actually do. And at first, it was just— it required a great deal of hard work. But over time—

I was really slow. I was always at the back of the little snake, you know, of 10 people, 10 10 kids following the teacher down, the ski teacher down the slope. I was always at the back. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, there you go. But over time, the great gift of, of the human body is that it can become part of you. That activity that you were doing, um, somehow entered into your body in such a way that your nerves and your muscles and your sense of what to do when all happened without a great deal of thought over time such that you could even perhaps, you know, look around at the beautiful scenery in Austria as you're skiing down the slope or even say hello to someone as you're passing them. And I think what you're describing is the essence of the gift that we receive as we journey toward this thing that we recognize is good. It's worthy. But yet it seems perhaps so far away, or we're not sure if or how we could get there, that the process of change is most especially hard at first, and that the gifts we receive as we go along, ultimately, the reward is that— not that we won't ever struggle with, say, something that we— maybe an addiction we want to overcome. Or kind of being burdened by resentments or struggles within relationships, within our family, or fears that we have. Not that those things won't ever be challenges that we face again, they certainly will. But that as we take concrete actions that can help move us toward that good thing, that worthy thing that we see, it actually does become easier. And that's the kindness of, of how we were designed, um, by God to be able to, um, have an easing up of the challenge. As we say yes to something over and over again, it begins in a sense to say yes to us, and it becomes increasingly part of our disposition, who we are, the substance of ourselves. And that's how, again, uh, habits and character are connected. We, we become what we do over and over and over again. You became a skier because you did it over and over and over again. And now you can attest to that. It even, even years later, the muscle memory that you have inside of you as a result.

Yeah. Yeah. That feels like a great place to bring it in, Rachel. Um, apart from, I guess, shifting it off me to— because that feels so kind of indulgent. Um, can you wrap it up for us in a way that isn't me, that is about you, or that is about us, that is anything else?

Well, I'll just say this one thing. I'm sure we could go in a lot of different directions and talk a great deal more. But Simon, I've enjoyed getting to know you, and I, I just really value what you're doing. You are setting about and persisting in setting forward a vision for all humans, including those who have experienced adoption to flourish, to flourish in their minds, to flourish in their, their, their physical health, to flourish in their relationships, and to flourish spiritually, and that you set that forward as something worthy of our pursuit, and also something that is attainable. And I think that's just so important because there are so many messages that primarily communicate about the, the trauma and the difficulties that have maybe defined a life at one time. And yet what you're laying forward is the prospect that whatever has come our way, whatever adversity and whatever challenges, wherever we find ourselves, that there is a prospect to grow toward that we're invited into and we can say yes to and, and journey toward. And that's, that's a truth-telling message. That is exactly what God intends. And, um, and, and we want it for, for every human being. God wants it for every human being. And I love it that you're— Leading with that. So thank you.

Thank you, Rachel, and thank you, listeners. We will speak to you again very soon. Bye-bye.