Love & Hate Zhen Rammelsberg

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees podcast. Uh, today I'm delighted to be joined by Jen, Jen Rammelsberg, and, um, really looking forward to the show, uh, this conversation. We spoke a couple of months ago, but you've been back to South Korea for a month.

I have, yeah, yeah, yeah, for about a month.

Yeah, for about a month. And you, you were saying you got caught in the monsoon season, so that wasn't great.

Yeah, July is either always just ungodly hot or monsoony, and we got caught in monsoon. So even when we tried to escape it and go to Busan, which is a resort oceanside town, it monsooned there too. We didn't get an escape from it ever.

But yeah, yeah. And she came back with COVID as well. But other than that, you had a great time, right? Sure.

Yeah. Like I said, Korea is always this love-hate relationship. I love it and hate it at the same time. And it's— and I'm, I'm, I miss being there, but I also am happy to leave it. Yeah, it's one of those— I don't know, that when you describe it that way, it sounds like an abusive relationship, doesn't it?

Yeah. So what, what's the love-hate? What— Oh, it just—

well, I think part of it is, so being a transnational, uh, transracial adoptee, It is tough to go back to the country that you never really— you have roots in, but you don't have any cultural ties to because you didn't grow up there, right? So it always feels like it somewhat is familiar, and also at the same time you don't fit in. So it's a tough— it's tough. It's emotionally tough. It's It's also tough because if you don't speak the language well, I mean, Seoul is a very international city, so a lot of people speak English, but you still— it does wear on you not being able to read or understand the language for a long period of time. So you're happy to leave it after a while because it's just too stimulating. But yeah. Love it.

It's fairly Western, yeah, as you say. But do they, do they expect you— I'm presuming they take a look at you and they expect you to be able to speak the language though, right?

Yeah, so the first couple times I went, they would— I could— so I weirdly have this ability to understand what people are saying to me, even if I can't understand what they're saying to me, just from body language. Um, and so I can understand when they're trying to figure out like why I don't speak Korean, and they will pointedly— they're very blunt— they will just pointedly be like, why don't you speak Korean? But they ask in, you know, Korean, and, and I can tell what they're saying. So I usually, I say mi guksaram, which means I am American. I don't use the Korean word ibeong, which is adoptee, because once you bring that into the conversation, then it just totally changes everything. All of a sudden they'll get this look on their face because it's kind of a shameful thing of their country. And also it's weirdly something that economically built their country. So that's kind of the love-hate relationship also, is that you realize that you were a product from their country. And there's even documentation— I'm in the middle of, for lack of a better term, kind of a class action lawsuit with some of the adoption agencies because there's evidence that I was not necessarily orphaned, that I was maybe taken. Um, but I'm not, I'm not an anomaly. There's a lot of us that, that has, that, that is probably the case because, you know, they needed a product.

Yeah.

If you don't have a product, you have to get it somehow. So, um, which is sad, um, and frustrating because then that means that part of my life, that culture was taken, robbed from me, you know. So, um, but so that plays into the love-hate. And also, you know, like when I come back, so I've been, like I said, in a month of being around adoptees, and then half of that time was also in Korea. So I was, I was at an adoptee gathering in Chicago. Um, And so that was a lot of adoptee energy for a week, and then flew from there, a bunch of several of us flew from there to Korea. And so again, you're around adoptee energy, you're also in this adoptee bubble of, of people that understand your plight, you can— You're protected by being in this bubble with them, right? And you're used to being able to speak your mind about Frustrations or things that you share in common because you're adoptees, right? And then suddenly we go back to the you know to our lives, to the real world. And this time I've had a harder time. So this is my fifth time in Korea. This I've had a harder time readjusting to I guess non-adoptee life this time. And I don't know if it's because it was such a long period of time this time. I don't know if it's also because I'm getting of an age where I'm. Starting to realize I don't know, know that I want to stay living in non-adoptee spaces or non— or spaces that are mostly white because I'm, you know, Asian. Um, but I— so one of the things, like, so last time you and I had talked, we had talked about things that were like kind of pebbles in our shoes. And so one of the things, luckily we have a group chat for those of us that have come back. And so we kind of are talking to each other in there about transitioning back and frustrations we've had. And so a lot of us have shared the same story of when we went back into our workspaces, let's say, or in non-adoptee spaces, even like family. You would tell them, oh, I've been to Korea, you know, and then immediately I would have people say, oh, did you go to find family, or did you go to visit family? Because they're trying to put together, like, why would you go to Korea, you know? And then I say to them, you know, you as a white person, if you traveled somewhere, I wouldn't be like assuming you're going to see family, right? So why would you assume that about me? Is it just— and then also I said family is kind of a triggering thing. I'm an adoptee, so we don't know, I might not ever find biological family. So that's a triggering thing. And then immediately They'll ask like other questions, like, like one of them was like, she goes, oh, you were adopted? And I was like, yeah. And she said, were you adopted through Holt? And I said, yeah. And then all of a sudden she's like, oh, my so-and-so adopted kids through Holt, like we were going to all of a sudden bond over that. And I just kind of was in this like space of like, I don't want to have this conversation one more time. And so I was kind of trying to be short so that she knew I didn't want to have this conversation, was like uncomfortable. Um, and so I just kind of was like, yeah, well, you know, Holt is part of the problem. I'm in kind of a lawsuit with Holt. And I just kind of did like the 5-second of like, you know, I might not have been— my adoption might not have been legal. And then she was like, oh, and then she kind of like— so then I'm left to feel like the ass because I made her feel bad, right?

Um, but This isn't—

but again, like in this chat, we've all kind of had these similar things where like people like will ask uncomfortable questions. One of them asked one of the adoptees if they ever thought about adopting because they were an adoptee, and you're like, wow, you know, don't ask an adoptee that because we know too much about adoption, you know. Um, but it's It's just the things that we kind of deal with on a daily basis. But I said, like, this time, I, I don't know if it's because I had taken that armor off for a little bit for that month. And so now I'm not used to having it back on again, or I don't want to put it back on. I don't want to be in a space where I have to put it back on. Maybe that's what it is. I don't know. But I'm having a harder time transitioning back. Back into the real world, I guess you'd call it. Yeah, around the Muggles. That's what we call them.

The Muggles. Oh, that's the Harry Potter stuff, right? Yeah, yeah. So who were your Dementors then?

You know, there's two, you know. Is it the whole adoption, you know? Is it the whole adoption thing? I don't know. Yeah, the whole— it's, it's a lot. I went and visited My adoption agency again. This is the third time I've gone, and what's interesting is each time I go— so, so in the time since I've gone, uh, the last time and this time, they had passed a law in Korea that they were supposed to let us see our real files, our full real files, because they have a real file and a shadow file, and the shadow file is usually the nicey-nicey one that they tell Send the people that are going to adopt you because they want to make it look like you were, first of all, truly abandoned, and then also a good, you know, Christian person or whatever, you know, so that these families are happy to have you, right? So they're supposed to be releasing those.

Okay.

Just because the law passed, though, doesn't mean that's happening because nobody's enforcing it, right? So I make the mistake of going thinking like, oh, this time it'll be different, right? So the first time I went, they brought out this file and it was probably an inch thick, and I only was allowed to see maybe the first 5 pages and that's it. You weren't allowed to see the rest of it. I don't know why. And at that time, it was my first time in Korea. It was my first time looking for my adoption stuff. So I was just like, oh, well, I didn't, you know, it didn't, it just didn't occur to me that to demand maybe to see the rest of it. The second time I went, my file was a little bit less. And I didn't realize at the time what she did, but the gal left the room for a mysterious reason and left the file in there. And I probably should have been taking pictures, but I didn't know that at the time. I found out later that that's why she did that, because legally she can't— she can't give you the information. But if she happens to leave the room and you saw it, it's not her fault, right? Um, so I didn't know that. So this time when they're supposed to be showing me my whole file, they literally bring in my file and it has 6 pages in it. So it has— so each time it mysteriously has less and less pages, and it's the 6 pages I've already seen. And include— in, in fact, there were some that were missing that I knew were supposed to be in there that I'd seen before. And we asked about it. We're like, okay, how come it's not showing the information about my foster mother this time? And she's like, oh, um, you saw that? And it's like, Yeah. And she's like, okay, well, I'll have to look in your file. Hold on. And so then she leaves the room. But she took the file with her this time. But it doesn't matter, though. I'd already seen all these pages. And, and she comes back with that information. And she's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. But because of privacy laws, we can't give you her information. And she's— she was an old person. When I was— when she was fostering me anyway, so she's— she'd be over 100 years old, so she's dead. But I mean, I'm assuming. So, but there were names of other people that she fostered, and they don't want you to see those. So that's the privacy laws thing, but it's just interesting that that wasn't even in my file. So it gets more and more frustrating. Each time. So I'm hoping that, that maybe the next time we— you know, like how they say the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different result? I guess this is that insanity loop. I guess I'm doing it with this, but we go in each time wiser that we know that this is going to happen. So yeah.

But yeah, but you're going for more and they're giving you less each time.

I know, I guess I'm a masochist, right? I don't know.

Yeah, well, it's the drive to know though, isn't it?

I mean— It's to know, yeah. And this is the thing, you know, DNA has been a game changer for a lot of people because it does usurp, you know, the laws and just being able— and the person controlling the file, right? So if all of a sudden you were found through DNA, there's nothing to stop you from contacting each other, right? So, um, so that's been a game changer for a lot of people. I don't think— I don't, I don't hold out a lot of hope that— because I've given my DNA to so many different organizations. Um, the police station is the big one, and that's the only time you pray that you're— you have a relative that's a criminal, because then it'll match.

Yeah.

Um, um, and that's— they only keep that for 10 years. And you have to kind of keep at them to make sure that they're actively checking it with the database because, you know, what are they— they're not motivated like you are, right, about finding your stuff. So I just have to keep contacting them regularly. Um, this time though, when we went to the police station in Anyang, which is where I was— Anyang City, which is a little south of Seoul, which is, um, where I was supposedly abandoned, but whether we know that that's true or not, I— that's— the information we have. The police were actually very helpful. They just said that since we came so late in our vacation, that they couldn't really help me. They said, next time you come, come right away, and then we'll help you. And I was like, okay. So they— but they seemed very helpful. So—

So then, so the not knowing and this misinformation is a big pebble in your shoe, right?

That's a big— it's like a boulder in my shoe, right?

Is that the biggest one? Is that—

no, I mean, I think it's just that— and it's not even that I want to meet family. I think what's— I've always been somebody that I want all the facts. And so I just would like to know that the facts that are in my file are true and correct, because like, even if, even if it's a total dead end, at least I know it's the true information. I have no idea if that's the true information because there's doubt that, that that's even my real file, you know, because it's easy to say like, oh, she was abandoned and she was found and wandering around with this sign on her that said this was her name and this is her birthday. There's no evidence that any of that is real. So we're trying to— We're trying to find the family that I was abandoned at their house because there were sons that were teenagers, so they would have remembered a child coming in the middle of the night, probably. Um, so we're trying to get a hold of them to see if they remember me, just to verify that this really happened.

So it's not just a lack of— it's not just a lack of information, it's a distrust of the information that you've been given?

Yes, because that— it sounds like most people's files were made up. Because they use the same— they kind of recycled through the same like 6 stories because, yeah, you know, you have like hundreds of thousands of adoptees and you're using the same stories over and over. And we all are like, wait a minute, how do we all have the same abandonment story? You know, it just seems a little suspicious.

But it's, it's very uncreative bureaucrats.

Oh, of course.

And there's copy and paste.

Yeah, and that's exactly what they're doing. That's exactly what they're doing. It worked before, so, you know, and if you put it— you spatter in a little bit of this information of like places, it— there's, you know, time has passed. There's no way to find out if it's accountable. Yeah, and there's no way to find out if those places—

There's no accountability.

Because that city is always like, you know, raising new buildings and changing all the time, so there'd be no way to even be like, was there a building there? Was there a farm there? We have no idea. How do you find out, you know?

Yeah.

Because now it's an apartment.

The bureaucrats have not got— I mean, there's no accountability in those.

There's no accountability. There's none. And even so, one of the things that, that happened while I was there, and I wasn't able to go, um, because we were going to Busan that day, is at one of the government buildings, they were having a kind of a, for lack of a better term, like a Senate hearing, because that's what people understand, but a hearing about what they were, whether they were going to allow baby boxes anymore. And so a bunch of us went to kind of protest that because I don't know if you know what a baby box is, but a baby box is a— it's supposedly a— it literally is a box that you can put your baby in anonymously, and then it's usually outside of like a police station or a fire department or a hospital. And so then people will know to check that baby box, and then if there's a baby in there, then they take it in, no questions asked. Well, the reason why for us adoptees— I, I kind of understand why maybe they've thought this is a good idea is because they want people to have a safe haven to abandon their children rather than throw them away, right? But, but for us adoptees, it means there's no trail of accountability of anybody. So there'd be no trail for you to ever find out who your— Who you are. biological family was. Okay, so to us, that's a terrible— that's a tragedy, you know, that's a travesty. Because why? What would be the point of that? It's like—

Well, you're storing up a load of problems later on.

Yeah.

You're— yeah, instead of solving the problem that you're experiencing now, you're making sure that that problem Continues, continues, and the trauma continues into the next generation, right?

So, um, you're— and you're probably thinking at the time, yeah, this is a problem that is happening now and we need to solve this problem. And it makes it better because then if they're more willing to give up a baby anonymously, then they'll do it. But, but again, it just creates this bigger, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

And nobody thinks of it from the point of view of the adopted person. So, because usually adoption is always told from the narrative of the people doing the adoption or the organizations doing the adoptions, right? But nobody tells it from the point of view of the adoptee and what it does to us and the trauma that we actually carry through and end up sometimes projecting onto our own, like, like our offspring. Because, you know, if you're still trying to figure out your stuff and you have a child, your child grows up with that trauma that you're, you're experiencing. So, um, so yeah, that's why I kind of enjoy these adoptee conferences because they do have workshops for spouses or partners of adoptees and then children of adoptees because it's a, you know, it is their own thing that they have to deal with that you're dealing with. So, um, Yeah, so one of the things that I kind of enjoyed that I got to do in Korea but also weirded me out at the time is I, I agree to these things, like I agreed to— I agreed to having this interview with you. Like you said, you know, I don't know you, right?

Um.

This guy contacts me, um, and I was like, yeah, sure, I'll do this. So, um, another, uh, person that I kind of knew because I'd done an interview on her podcast too, she has an adoptee podcast. And so she knows that I'm a writer. And she was putting together this artist showcase of performers of adoptees in Korea. And at the time, she was like, hey, I'd like to have different people that have been on my podcast that I know do stuff. She goes, would you read some of your pieces at my showcase? And I was like, sure. And I'm thinking there's going to be more than just me reading. But I go to the— soundcheck. It's this really cool place in Itaewon called Bidi Bidi, and it's this 3-level bar. It's really cool performance space. And, and I'm there at the soundcheck, and there's different people singing, there's different people playing instruments, and they're doing soundtrack. And they said, oh, hey, you know, we're not starting yet. And I said, oh yeah, I'm here for the soundcheck. And they're like, oh, are you the spoken word artist? And I go, there's only one of me? And I was thinking like, aren't there more than just me? And they're like, nope, you're it. And I was like, wow. So we had— so I was kind of bookended by fantastic musicians. And I— so I got to do a couple of my spoken word pieces in, in Creole. So at the time when I accepted it, it didn't dawn on me that I will be reading my pieces in Korea, and I never in a million years thought, um, I'll be performing in Korea.

Yeah.

Um, so I, during the sound check, it kind of hit me that I was like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be performing my pieces in Korea. So that it just really, um, that it's just, you know, it just all of a sudden the, the weight of that was on me, and I was like, oh my gosh, this is— and so I really thanked this gal for giving me that opportunity. And I also realized that some of the pieces that I wrote, the context of them is a little different when you're in Korea reading them, because I write them with the— I didn't even realize— with the context of that I'm talking about being brought from Korea to America, and you're standing in America reading it, right? So when you're back in Korea reading it, you're like, Does this hit the same? But when you're reading it to people that understand adoption, they— it does. But it was just kind of interesting that I was like, wow, this is a whole other situation reading it in Korea and from the context of being back in Korea. So yeah.

So we haven't agreed on this or even thought about this before, but do you fancy reading one of your pieces now? A bit of it?

I could. And of course, like, when I, I thought about this earlier and I was like, I probably should read one of these. So I have to find it first though, because—

Yeah.

Um, is that okay? I mean—

Yeah, great. Yeah.

Okay, let me hold on. So this— yeah, so I might just chat with you for a little bit while I'm doing this. Um, I'll just read One of the shorter pieces, because we're still talking.

If you're listeners, yeah, I can't do obviously two things at once. It's called dead air, apparently. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's my piece that I'm reading to you is called Dead Air. No, I'm just joking. Yeah, I know. I am.

Okay, let's see. I was listening to a podcast earlier, um, and some— the, the, the, the guest— sorry, the host was laughing her head off. And I was like, isn't, isn't this— this is just like— she's talking— they're talking about— it wasn't an adoption podcast, but she's talking about a fairly serious subject.

And what, what, what—

I was getting frustrated. I was like, what, what How dare you? How dare you be laughing at this? And, and here I am doing exactly the same, being the host and laughing. So if it's cheesing you off, um, listeners, I, I, I apologize.

Oh no.

It's just the natural humor that's coming across.

Okay, of course I can't find this.

Yeah, of course you can't find it now. It's like the demo blue.

Is it because I'm like, I might have named it something else?

Yeah. And the thing is that Jen's obviously looking for it on her computer, and she's actually getting closer and closer to me on the screen.

I know, I know. Yeah, I'm very nearsighted, so everyone can—

Yeah, but we're only doing an audio version of this podcast.

Yeah.

We're not doing video, so it's okay. This is—

oh my God.

This is the one.

So of course, the one that I want to read, I'm having a hard time finding. I'm about ready to just walk into the other room and just pick it up because I know I have it printed out. Yeah, I don't usually do that, but, um, okay. Yeah, of course I'm not finding it. I like seriously am gonna just walk over into the other room. Because, um, let's do that because it'll just be quick. Yeah, hold on. Yeah.

Thank you for your patience, listeners. Uh, I'm normally kind of prepared for these conversations, but obviously this one didn't and just came up. I didn't realize that, uh, Jen had done this spoken word stuff, and I just, you know, that stuff that we've crafted That stuff we've crafted has such clarity, brings such clarity and such emotion, I find, in a world of confusion, the world of confusion inside our heads. The stuff that we've thought about and put down in words has great power. So Take it away, Jen.

Okay, so this is a piece I called Yellow, and I actually wrote it the last time I— in my head, because I didn't have pen and paper or anything— on the flight to Korea, because I was actually writing it for, I thought, this theater company that was going to use it, and then they decided not to use it. But— and that was the time that I fell and broke my ankle in Korea and had to come back But so I got to, I got to kind of get my, got my revenge with that piece and read it in Korea this last time. So it's called Yellow. Yellow, like the little dress with the Blue Holt logo on the sleeve that I wore at the age of 2 on my trip from Korea to this foreign land. Yellow, like the golden hair of my adopted mother and the warm glow of the sunlight glinting off her as she held me. And I felt safe and instantly fell in love. Yellow, like the eyes of the fattest cat that greeted me in my new home, causing me to yell out, kiyongi, which was Korean for cat, the first words my now parents heard from me and understood. Yellow, like the scratchy beard of the father that I knew from a young age I didn't like or feel close to or that I belonged to him. Yellow, like caution. Which father am I waking up to today? And don't leave me alone with my adopted brother. Yellow, like the plastic of my favorite teething toy that I would gum until I was comforted and lulled to sleep. Yellow, like the light of the fireflies I would chase at dusk on the hottest summer nights in my nightgown after a bath. Yellow, like the dancing flames of the campfire as we roasted marshmallows and told stories before bedtime. Yellow, the name the kids at school called me as they taunted me for not being white like they were, as they chanted, Chinese, Japanese, dirt knees, look at these. Yellow, like the feelings of cowardice I felt each time I entered a room, not knowing if people were friends or foes. Yellow, like the school bus I rode when I encountered my first best friend after she asked me to sit with her, and we chatted about how scared she was too. Yellow, like the COVID and the pages of my favorite books that transported me to amazing places and lighted a passion for writing and unleashed my imagination. Yellow, like the dandelions that I would run barefoot over in the meadow behind my house on the way to the swing set where my mother would push me higher and higher. Yellow, like the dough I would roll into balls in the kitchen of my beloved grandmother as we sang silly songs and baked and danced. Yellow, like the warm sun on my face and the cool wind whipping through my hair the first time I felt freedom as I drove my car and my friends, and I felt carefree and light as we cranked up the tunes and sang at the top of our lungs. Yellow, like the fever that came over the young men as they leered and forced themselves upon me, thinking that Asians were sexual conquests. Yellow, like the color of the car you drove as you pulled up alongside me on the avenue and asked me my name. Yellow, like the crunching leaves under our feet as we went for our first hike together, full of promise, and I could see how our lives were meant to be together. Yellow, like the golden bands that adorned our fingers as we vowed to love and live together forever. Yellow, like the blanket that held our baby boys. He stared up at us, trusting and knowing, and my heart filled with a love I didn't know existed. Yellow, like the firelight and the millions of birthday candles and bicycles and camping tents. And eventually, yellow, like the sash around your neck, son, on your graduation day when we couldn't have been more proud of you. Yellow, like the people in the land we returned to when you proposed to your now wife. You were so much more proudly Korean than I ever was, because I was made to be ashamed, but now with you I am proud. Yellow, like the boutonniere we pinned to you on your wedding day. Yellow, like the dress that I wore on my trip from Korea to America, no longer a dress of shame worn by a child thrown away, abandoned and found. A yellow dress with the blue Holt logo on the shoulder that now is worn by your daughter, and my granddaughter, Jasmine Nari.

Wow.

So yeah, so that wouldn't— like I said, it's written in the context to be read in America. So when you're sitting, standing in Korea reading this, you're like, okay, maybe this doesn't— maybe it's a little weird. But yeah, so—

So what strikes me is the paradox in And the complexity.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's, you know, there's sadness and tragedy woven in with moments of happiness, right? So that's kind of, kind of our existence as adoptees. There's like sadness and tragedy. And I mean, uh, somebody said it best when they said, um, every adoption story starts with trauma. Um, and it's, it's true because, you know, it always starts with being abandoned, supposedly. Or being taken and being taken to live with someone else. So that's, you know, that's, that's a traumatic situation. So, but, you know, it doesn't necessarily define 100% of our existence, 100% of our lives, right? But there's a big void, there's a big question of like, what, what happened in the first 2 years of my life? Yeah. What genetics am I passing on to my family that I've created, right? We'll just never— we'll never know, right? So you always wonder about things like that. Yeah.

Powerful.

Yeah. And to think that, like, you know, it's just a color. But color can create a feeling, a mood, you know. Yeah. I still have that dress too, that whole, that little Holt dress that I came in. I have put it in a shadow box.

What's a shadow box?

So it's, it's a box that kind of holds things that are valuable. It's kind of a way to display them. Um, yeah, so I do have it displayed. Um, sometimes I wonder about that. It's like, why am I displaying the— this dress? But it's interesting that my, that my adopted mother saved it, um, because the only reason I have it is because she did a really good job of preserving it for me. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but in her mind, it was a good thing because that was the day that I, that I came into her life.

Yeah.

You know, but, you know, I also realize it's also the day that, you know, another life ended for me, right? So, because, you know, that's the other thing I've written about too, is that It's almost like, for lack of a better term, it's almost like a murder happened because I had another name, whether it was my real name or not, or whether it was a name given to me in Korea. You have to have a legal name so that that way you can be adopted, you know, to the family. And it's interesting that it's almost like getting a puppy from a pound. Like a puppy might have had a different name. But then suddenly you adopt this puppy and decide you're going to name it Charlie or something. I don't know, you know, whatever. And everybody just goes along with this thing that like we just pretend like this other name never existed. We pretend like this other person didn't exist. So there's this life path that you could have gone, me as Sun Young. So that's when I, you know, that's the Mandalorian story that I tell, that Sun Young. But then all of a sudden that ended. And we're Jenny from now on, right? I've changed the— I've legally changed the spelling of it, but I was Jenny, um, because that's what my adoptive family wanted to name me. Um, and it's just weird because I don't know of any other instance where you're born with one name and then suddenly somebody just decides, like, you know what, we're, we're just gonna change your name today and everybody's gonna go along with it. So it's almost like—

Did I pronounce it right? At the start.

Yeah, you do. Okay. Yeah. Did you think you didn't?

I can't remember.

You did.

I just don't. I don't like making mistakes like that.

No, you did not. You did. You you pronounce because it's like Jen or Jenny. Yeah, you did, and you said Jen. But yeah, so you know, like I said, my Mandalorian moment. So those of you that know the Mandalorian, there's a little character in there, and he looks. He's a baby, and he's 50 years old, but he's a baby. And people mistakenly called him Baby Yoda because the only— he looks like Yoda, but Yoda is not a species, that's his name. So partway through the series, you find out his name, and his name is Grogu. And he hasn't heard his name for, for 50 years because he has been hiding out. And also he doesn't talk. So people don't know what his name is, but he meets another Jedi that can read his thoughts and finds out his name is Grogu. So when the Mandalorian starts calling him Grogu, he's so happy to hear his name that he goes, every time he hears his name, like it gets him excited. So I kind of have my Mandalorian moment. There's this gal that she is Korean from Korea, that she is the greeter at Costco, and her name is Miyoung. So I, for some reason, felt comfortable telling her that my name was Sunyoung, even though I have not ever gone by Sunyoung for, you know, I'm 52 now. So yeah, so I haven't gone by Sunyoung for 50 years. And she Calls me Sunyoung, and every time she does, it just sounds right because the way she says it that I'm always like I have my girl game moment, or she'll be like Sunyoung. She's so excited to see me, and she'll be like Sunyoung. And so then I'm like oh calling me by my Korean name.

Mandalorian.

Yeah, so that I have my my Mandalorian moment. But I still haven't told a lot of other people that that's I mean you know here I'm telling everybody on here. It's not like it's a secret; it just doesn't. Feel like my name. I've never— I haven't gone by it. And I was— and there was a little shame of it, because I remember my adoptive mom saying, she was always very open about letting me read my adoption stuff. So she's like, yeah, your name is— so my name was Yoon, which is my last name, and Sunyoung, my first name. And she's like, yeah, but we don't tell anybody that. So then that just kind of gave me the message that like, we don't talk about that part of it. So it's, it's shameful for some reason. So I have hard time talking to people about it. I still have that kind of block. And there was many years where I didn't want to talk about— I thought of myself as being white, because I was raised around white people. And if people would remind me that I was Asian, I'd get really angry. I didn't want to be considered Asian. I didn't want to even explore the Asian side of me. And it wasn't until my son was filling out college applications, and I asked him what box are you checking? And he's like, Asian, like, duh, right? And I was like, you're proud of being Asian? And he goes, yeah, I kind of had a cool Asian mom. And I realized he saw an Asian role model in front of him. I never saw that, a positive one. They weren't on TV, they weren't on magazines, they weren't in movies. I mean, there'd be the Olympic ice skater every once in a while. That's, that's about it. That's all. Or Connie Chung, I guess. But who's a newscaster. I don't know if you knew. No, I didn't know. I was like, I was thinking you probably don't know because she's an American newscaster. But other than that, that we didn't really have a lot of Asian role models. And so then I started realizing, okay, if he's excited about it, maybe I should be proud of being Asian. So then that's kind of when I did the deep dive into Exploring Asian side and then adoption and all that stuff. So since then, I've found these adoptee groups and we talk openly about adoption and all the stuff. And so that's really been helpful.

Yeah. You talked— you used the word energy. Um, you talk about the energy in the adoptee groups.

Oh yeah, adoptee energy. Yeah.

What's that like?

So it's I. This is the first time I've gone to Korea and not had a freakout because usually I always have like a certain amount of time that I have a freakout, and I think part of it is since I was already around adoptee energy in Chicago for a week, I think I made sure that I I kept it in check when I was in Korea, so I didn't have a freakout moment. Because being around adoptee energy for a long time. It's a lot, and somebody had tried to get me to explain what that was before, and I go, I can't explain it, but it's when a group of adoptees get together, there's— it's almost like you're in the middle of— there's excitement, there's challenge, there's all the emotional, mental, all the stuff. It's all in one area because some of these adoptees, it's the first time they've been around other adoptees. Some adoptees are bringing in all their baggage, their emotional, uh, whatever they're dealing with, depression, whatever. Um, and so you take it on because you're in there with them. I also— somebody, uh, verbalized something and I realized, okay, I think that's what I'm feeling too, is some of us, we grow up, especially those transnational, transracial adoptees, We grew up being kind of special because we were like the only non-white person and we knew that. So then all of a sudden you're in a group of like everybody's just like you and you're not special anymore. And that's a weird feeling too, which sounds really odd to admit that out loud. But I think that's a lot of it with me is I realize it's harder for me to feel like I'm special. It sounds terrible to say. When you're in this group of like adoptees that are just like you and some of their personalities are way bigger, you know, some of them are like, hey, look at me, look at me, let's do all this stuff and blah blah blah. And then you feel like either you get in that mood of like competing with them. So I just make sure that I just kind of stay— I, I stick with the people that I want to hang out with and then I kind of just let the other ones kind of do their thing. So I think I was really good at doing that this time, so I didn't have my freak out. Yeah, but I don't, I don't know if that explained adoptee energy.

Well, um, is it the variety? Is it the variety? Because you said, you know, some people— I wrote down, you know, excitement, and that you talked about excitement, and then you also talked about depression. So I'm, I'm— is it, is it that, that you're running that, that, that it's a really mixed— it's a really mixed energy?

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

Um, and some people are there, like, especially in Korea, I don't even know how they do it. They will party till 4 AM, like, every night that they're there, and I don't even know how they do it. And they, you know, I— that's not gonna be me. But you're also dealing with jet lag, you know. You get there, it's like 14 hours ahead for us that are in America. And, um, so you're like, night is day and day is night. And so when you first show up You're like so jet lagged, and then you're trying to do all the stuff that's in the that's part of the conference, and and that's during the day usually. But you're you're expecting you're trying to be your body's trying to be asleep during that time, and so you're trying to get over the jet lag, get used to the time zone change. Plus you're doing this, plus you're around all these adoptees, plus you're in Korea, which is very stimulating. So it's a lot. But like I said, adoptee energy is. Especially when we all gather together, it's— it can be a lot. It's like I said, it's— it's— I don't know how else to describe it, but you— it's easy to take it on too. I think part of that is a trauma response because we're kind of— we tend to be people pleasers because that's a trauma response for us as adoptees, is to be accepted by showing that we really do belong or that we— or that we're really— You know, trying to, trying to be liked. Sorry, my cat is screaming in the background for those of you that can hear.

Did you hear our pig earlier?

Did I what?

Did you hear our pig earlier?

No, I did not hear your pig earlier.

We have— so we had 2 pigs until last year.

In your house?

No, no, no, in the, in a We got a field.

Okay, I was like, you have 2 pigs in your house? That seems like a lot.

Yeah, they were brother and sister, Ruby and Buster. But Buster knows when it's around, you know, time for his evening meal.

Oh, I thought you were gonna say he knows when it's time you're trying to do a podcast. He makes noise.

They're really intelligent pigs, but not that. Yeah, and I was wondering, I wonder if anybody's hearing Buster in the background.

Oh yeah, we used to raise pigs too.

These are pets, not—

No, no, no, no, not to eat them. Yeah, yeah, no, um, don't eat them.

Um, yeah, it's, uh, I've never, never been around a Group of, a big group of adoptees.

You haven't at all?

Wow. No, not in, not in person. I've, I've also been on Zooms with them, but not—

Yeah.

Yeah, not—

So it's interesting that like, because even other adoptees have noticed that like, you know, that this is kind of unique that the Korean adoptees gather together. Um, I don't know if other adoptees, you know, gather like we do. I don't know why we—

Yeah, they do. I think they do. Um, uh, I, I know some— I've had a guy on the— young guy called David Shunk on the show who's a Russian adoptee, and, and he's going out with another Russian adoptee, and they, they, they get together with other And, uh, they do have groups. They have some groups, and, um, Chilean, Chilean or Colombian, I think, kind of get together. So yeah, yeah, I think, um, but, you know, the domestic, um, adoptees get together, you know, right? There's no group for that. Um, so yeah, um, you're gonna get a really mixed— it's just like gonna get a really mixed bag if we just take the, uh, the, the variety of experience, you know, the spectrum, the spectrum of experience. But I, I guess the most— yeah, part, part of, uh, I think the human race, when, when we're depressed, we withdraw, don't we?

Yeah.

So the most dis— the, the, the most Depressed ones wouldn't get that.

Yeah, I know. I'm sure that they wouldn't get—

yeah. But you still got, you still got a big spectrum.

Well, what's interesting is there's a lot of people that are very introverted and they'll make the effort to, to come to these gatherings. And I always feel bad for them because it's, I mean, it's a lot like they expect you to, they don't expect you to, but when you go to sessions, people will talk and share. You don't have to talk and share, but I'm sure it's a lot for them. Do you know what I mean? To be like, I'm around all these people that are very open and talk. But it's interesting because, you know, like in Korea, there's about 500 Korean adoptees from all over the world that'll, that'll gather for this. Um, so that's a lot.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, we're never in one space at one time, but we're all at this gathering, um, other than when we did the group picture at the beginning. Um, but, um, It's interesting though that the one thing that ties us is that we're Korean adoptees, right? But that's not enough commonality because, you know, it's just difference in people, right? That doesn't mean that we're all going to get along together just because we're Korean adoptees. So I think that's what, what I mean by sometimes I have to stay away from that Korean or that adoptee energy because, um, just like if you're in a group of any other people there's gonna be people you're gonna get along with and other people that are gonna annoy the hell outta you, right? So it's just, you know.

I was thinking, I was trying to think of parallels when I would be in that inner space with so many different sorts of people. And, but that, and yeah, and I thought like the first day at school.

Yeah. And that it's very much like that because, and I always, so what's nice is they'll have like either Zoom meetings before So people that have questions or will be on a chat, so we kind of help each other like this. Those of you have never been to Korea, these are things you need to know, blah blah blah blah blah. And then we'll have a wrap up like we just had a Zoom wrap up the other day for the one in Chicago. And what's lovely is you'll find out people that this is their first time sometimes being in the adoptee space, and this is their first time coming to a gathering, and they really liked it. And I'll be very impressed that but. And I'll say to them, I go, it's so tough because you'll, you'll encounter what seems like everybody seems to already know each other. Because there's our groups of people that we already do kind of know each other just from other things. And then it is like school in that because there's always like round tables to sit at to eat. And you come walking in, you're like, I don't know where to sit. I don't know who to sit with. And it is like school because it seems like, oh, these people all seem to all know each other. And they're all friends and hanging out, and then who am I, right? So we try to make it so that there are activities early on so that you can find groups of people that you would get along with so that you have people to kind of hang out with, because otherwise it's not very fun if you're just like— if you feel like every time I walk into a room I'm not going to know anybody. That's, that's kind of freaky. Yeah, so we try to help with that, but, but again, just— taking the first step of even decided to come to this. That's a scary thing. You know, you're going to a country you don't know, you're going to, you know, you're meeting people you've never met. So, wow. Yeah.

So, um, I think, uh, we're conscious of time and bringing it in. Is there anything else that you'd like to, to share?

Um, no, I just, I, I, I, I just want to thank you for, you know, giving giving adoptees this space and for, um, I guess finding me on the internet. I don't even know how you found me, but I'm glad you did, um, because I enjoy— I enjoy sharing my story and sharing, um, my— where I am in my journey. It's interesting that when I listen to other podcasts, where I was in that point in my journey, and seeing now that this will probably mark where I was at this point in my journey. Oh yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah.

Brilliant. Thanks so much, and thank you, listeners. Speak to you again soon. Thank you. Thank you for sharing.

Yeah, thanks, Simon.