Moving Beyond Pain With Tanya Kaanta

Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Thriving Adoptees Podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by, uh, Tanya, Tanya Kanter. Looking forward to our conversation today, Tanya.

Thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm excited.

So, so much fun. Um, so Tanya, what does, uh, what does thriving adoptees mean to you? What What comes to mind when you hear the name of the pod?

You know, for me, when I hear that, I think beyond just existence, but really adoptees who are looking into their journeys and, and trying to heal. For me, it's about healing also.

Yeah. And, and what does healing mean?

You know, healing, you know, that's such a— that's right. That's such an interesting top word, and it can be so subjective for so many different people.

Yeah.

But for me, I feel like healing is wherever you are in your journey. I like to call it a journey because I don't think it ever ends. I think it's never ending. But, but yeah, for me, I feel like the healing is, you know, being able to be at peace with different aspects of one's story or be in a place where it's okay for, for the adoptee to feel like, you know, I, I can feel these emotions and that's okay. Work through them, experience them, ask questions, be curious, and then, and then continue on. It doesn't, it doesn't hold them in that place of, of Pain.

Yeah.

Um, but we can acknowledge the pain and then, and then continue with our lives. Uh, continue on our journey. That's, that's what I feel like healing is. Um, not being stuck.

Not stuck. And, and you mentioned a, a, a key thing there being okay to feel the emotions. Mm-hmm. Because, and for me, that, that feels quite a significant thing.

Mm-hmm.

Be okay to feel the emotions because so many of us have been, uh, struggling with those emotions and, and have fought those emotions for so long, right?

Yeah. Well, I, you know, I really believe with, with a lot of the adoption narratives, uh, from the past that still trickle in, um, to this day is that we as adoptees are supposed to be grateful. We're always— that's the only emotion we're allowed to feel. And, and that, and I feel like that can be very— oh, it's, it's like, you know, I was watching some of your other podcasts, you talk about the wounds, right? And, and there's, there are wounds there. And to not acknowledge that, I don't think that it's healthy for our bodies. I think we, we need to acknowledge. all of our emotions and experiences, um, in, in, and so that we can, we can heal. If we only allow ourselves to, to feel one type of emotion, I, I feel like it, it, it really stifles a huge part of, of who we are. And then also it tells us that emotion's not okay, that part of us is not okay. When Obviously, we have all these emotions for a reason. And, and again, not to be stuck in one emotion. But, but to experience it for sure. Also, so we can work it through our bodies. And so our bodies don't get sick too. You know, there's, as we're finding out now, there's a connection between trauma and chronic illness as an adult. And a lot of that is because we're not able to get all of those those emotions and pain and wounds that we might have as a child, um, we don't have opportunities to heal those.

Yeah.

And so I think by having— yeah, being able to express all the emotions and recognize it's okay and not beating ourselves up and allowing us to feel, um, helps us move through it and then— yeah, and then heal. Thrive.

Thrive. Yeah, there's so much there, isn't there? There's so much there. Um, and, and, and we got that allowing ourselves. I mean, it's— it gets really, really complex, this stuff, doesn't it?

It does, it does. But it's almost like it— like, I know for, for me and talking to other adoptees It's like this big light bulb goes off when we're given permission. We shouldn't have to be given permission to feel, right? But I think because those narratives are so strong that we're taught as children growing up, it's almost like someone has to be there and say, okay, Tanya, it's okay. You know, you can— like, I remember having a therapist tell me, Tanya, you are okay. You are a human being. It's okay to feel All these emotions. You don't always have to be happy. Yeah.

The somatic experiencer lady that I'm working with, uh, she says, um, we can be whole and human. Like, so I was talking to her about, I was talking to her about wholeness and this, and she said, but you're human too, Simon. Mhm. Mhm. You know, and one of the big breakthroughs for me last year was this idea that came to me that we'll— perhaps psychologically we'll be healing forever.

Mhm.

But at a deeper level, we were never wounded. We were We're, we're whole at a, at a different level beyond our psychology.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, we can totally get into the, um, the, the, the, what is it? Um, that realm of beyond the physical. Yeah. Like this, the here and now plane. But yeah, I mean, I think that, um, I think, well, yeah, there's lots of different theories, right? That, but we are, we are perfect, or supposedly, you know, we are supposedly born perfect. And then there's this, you know, through all these different things that happen to us, you know, those experiences kind of influence more of, of, of what's going on until we decide, you know what, I am— I, I don't have to live in this pain. I, I can work through it. Not that the pain ever goes away, or maybe it does for some, I don't know, you know. Uh, but then also there's a whole piece, if we really want to get metaphysical, right, of the, um, intergenerational trauma that comes through. I still think we're, um, even with that, I think we are We are amazing beings, our bodies are amazing. And so even if we have like some memories of trauma from, from ancestors, we still are amazing and have this ability to heal. And, and to, you know, and we're not, it's not that we're broken, or that we're not full or whole. But I think that there are— our bodies are— our bodies, our minds are pretty amazing that we can, you know, we can look at all these different experiences that then are in our bodies and say, okay, I hear you, I see you. Let's work through this rather than letting it hold us down.

Yeah.

And then we can, and then we can kind of continue on our journey. Yes.

For me, because I spent a lot of time thinking about this and trying to get— trying to make the complexity of it perhaps easier to understand, especially when I'm doing trainings. And I think it, to me, it all comes down to what is the we that we're describing?

Mm-hmm.

Right? So what is it? We, we our bodies? Is it we our psychology? Or is it we our essence?

Mhm.

The, the stuff underneath all that. Um, so the— you, you— what some people would call consciousness, or what some people would call awareness and what other people would call spirit. Mm-hmm. So you can't look at healing on just one level because you have, you have to define the level that you're looking at.

Yeah, I agree. Yeah, there's— yeah, no, that's— yeah, absolutely. There's so many different levels. So I agree.

To, to make it simplest, I think if we look at it in— for me, look at it on 2 levels, right? Body-mind as one level and consciousness.

Mm-hmm.

As a deeper level. And then we're only looking basically at 2 levels. So the body-mind stuff, we could be looking at the body or the mind, and we don't know what's what, right? Because there's no separation.

Right, right.

The separation is in the words, not in the experience. We get like, I, I, I have those, those sensation moments, like, um, like a, like a pan— so say a panic, you know, like a, or, um, a stress, feeling under stress.

Mm-hmm.

And my mind's going 10 to the dozen. How am I gonna get to this airport gate on time? Or, you know, whatever. So the, the mind's going 10 to the dozen. Yeah, my mind is going at 10 to the dozen. Um, my, perhaps my, my mouth is getting dry.

Mm-hmm.

And I'm feeling it, but I'm feeling it in, in the body. So perhaps my, my hands are Sweating or something like that. I'm feeling hot under the collar. So you can't really separate the body-mind.

No, no, it's so integrated. Yeah.

So integrated. And yet that's not who we are at the deepest level.

Yeah, yeah. It, that's, you know, it's interesting. I just did this, um, retreat about finding true self. Um, right, because It talks about everything that you were just saying about how we have all of this stuff and that we then realize it's almost like we forget we're beyond that, but we become that. We become that anxiety. We become that depression and that pain or that— and then all those negative words and tapes that we keep repeating to ourselves, right? That just— It just really continues to, like, beat ourselves up. But our true self is not that person, or is not that essence. Our true self is love. Yeah.

Right?

Our true self is whole. Like, we are not broken. Um, and so tapping into that true self and, um, acknowledging all this other stuff that's been there for a long time, but then real— then tapping into that true self and finding that true self and, and letting that true self out. Yeah, yeah.

I love that. Yeah. And I think finding, you mentioned finding twice. So as I'm describing this, it's a description. It's a description of something that I have found. The description, it isn't, it isn't, uh, as, as a description, as something that we're talking about, it's one thing. It's too abstract.

Mm-hmm.

It, it's something that we find. It's something that is a found experience. It's an experience that can't quite be put into words.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

You kind of live in it.

And it's always, and it's always in us too. That, well, that's what, that, you know, the, the, the perspective, you know, from this retreat is like, it has always been here. Like it's always in there. We, right. We just have to find it.

Yeah. We have to find it. We have to experience it. Yes. And we, and people listening to this who haven't found it, it won't make any sense to them.

No, you're absolutely 100%. Yep. And they even mentioned about that at the, you know, we were with a few Taoist gurus, um, who were leading the retreat and they said, yeah, people who are not experiencing it won't understand it.

So one of my mentors talks about underground daffodils, right? Underground daffodils. So there's 2 people in the garden, or the yard as you would call it in the States, 2 people in the yard talking about true self, true self love, consciousness, awareness. They're all Those are 4 different words for the same thing that is found. 2 people are talking about it above the ground, and there's an underground daffodil bulb that's saying, what are you talking about?

Hmm.

Because they can't see it. They can't see it. They can't— like, we're— it's like us We're pointing at the sun and enjoying the warmth of the sun on our backs, and the underground daffodil is saying, you're lying, it's dark.

Mm-hmm.

Don't be talking rubbish.

Right.

To put it politely.

Yeah, yeah.

So Sounds like this was big for you, this.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was an, it was an amazing retreat. We're actually, um, looking into offering something specifically for adoptees next year in 2026. So we're gonna, um, offer something in the spring. Um, that, that's not, it's, it's a healing wellness program, but it, it's, um, a bit more hybrid. Um, and then we'll offer a What do you mean by hybrid? Hybrid meaning some of the— some stuff from TIES where we'll have our facilitated discussion groups, and then there'll be classes with a Tao master. And then later in the year, we'll offer something like this retreat, which is a bit more intense. And so also, you know, I feel like you know, participants, we want them to, to want to, to experience that, that depth, right? So, because, so we're going to offer 2 different ones. Almost sounds silly. It's almost like a kind of an intro, and then a deeper one. So it's not as intimidating. So—

That doesn't sound silly at all.

Yeah, so we're gonna offer— thank you. We're gonna offer that. And it's open to all adoptees and loved ones. And so there'll just be times when the one for the, the finding true self specifically for adoptees, that will be adoptee only. And that will be later in 2026. But the one for the first one that we're doing in March is open to adoptees and loved ones. So we'll, they'll get some experiences on, on how to heal our mind and body. And then also we can process some things together and separate also. So then we would have groups separate to hold space for adoptees and hold space for loved ones separately. Um, and then come together again. So, yeah.

So I should explain a bit of context, listeners here, right? Uh, so Tanya's, um, you're born in South Korea.

Yes.

And you, uh, raised by a family in the States.

Uh, I remember, I think in Connecticut.

Yeah. Um, and she also runs the TIES program. So the TIES program is heritage travel for adoptees to reconnect with their homeland, right? So the question that's coming to mind is the Taoist stuff and the Eastern religion.

Mm-hmm.

Have you got a sense of whether that appeals more to adoptees Um, Asian, Asian, you know, people from Korea, people, people, does it, because it comes from that part of the world.

It does come from East Asia. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, this, um, retreat that I did, um, the majority of the people at the retreat were Caucasian.

Yeah.

There was only a couple folks who were Asian, and then there are only 2 of us who are adoptees. And, and so, yeah, and they— and it's not just Taoism. They actually incorporate a lot of other different— what's the word— philosophies. You know, so some yoga, meditation, things like that where it's not just based in Taoism. There's also some other masters who are masters in other areas as well. The, the one of the main masters though of the, the whole area, she actually, she is Korean.

Yeah.

So she is from Korea, which is, which is very interesting. But actually a majority of the people that go are not Korean, and they're not Asian. They're actually all different race and ethnicities. So, so, because, yeah, so I think that's, you know, I think the whole piece of just speaking to one's inner, inner calmness and peace and love, and finding your true self, I think that can speak to people from all different backgrounds and—

Yeah.

Belief systems. Yeah.

I'm sure, as I come across people from all different backgrounds in these spaces, and at some level, people would say that all of, all of the religions kind of track back to this one place, what people, some people call the perennial, perennial philosophy. But most of the religions have lost that essence.

Yeah, it's, I mean, and, and, and it's not a, a religious experience per se. So for people who are not religious, you know, it, you'll, it's not gonna turn you off, but they do offer a space for any religion, um, to be, they don't, they don't talk about religion in the, the retreat or in, in the classes, but they acknowledge that we come from all different, um, backgrounds and, um, and belief systems, and they welcome all of that. So yeah, it's nice.

It's nice. So what have been the key moments on so far on your healing journey?

Tanya? Oh, gosh. Well, I think one of the big ones, and we touched upon it already when you were talking about you were working with your somatic coach, is that whole piece of, for me, healing that mind-body because it is so linked. And I think for so long, I only did the brain. I only did the mind. Um, and I kind of ignored the body. Yeah.

But you had these, you had these really big physical things go on for you.

Yeah.

Or, uh, earlier in your life that you shared with me last time. So can you talk a little bit about those, please?

Yeah, sure. So, you know, I, I developed, uh, a very rare brain disease in 2017. It's called autoimmune encephalomyopathy. And based essentially my immune system complicated by Lyme disease because I had chronic Lyme disease for about 25 years that I didn't know I had at the time because I had been misdiagnosed by doctors over the years. And then they finally figured out I had Lyme disease. So we started treatment about 2— in about 2015. And, and then in 2017, I just woke up with vertigo, and, and then it, it never stopped. Um, and I just got really, really sick. And essentially what was happening was my immune system was attacking my brain. And, um, I had done a lot of therapy, uh, and, and as we talk about healing our wounds, right? And, um, and I thought, I am great, but But I neglected a major piece is that I, I didn't take care of myself. I was taking care of everybody else. And, and I think my body just was, it was in so much, uh, it, it, it, it was so sick actually. It was just really sick. And this is the only way I, I feel like personally, this is how it manifested. to force me to stop and actually focus on myself and take care of myself physically, mentally, all those pieces, because I was neglecting— I was neglecting that. My whole existence was to take care of others and to help others, except for myself. And so yeah, so 2017, I had this disease, and it basically rendered me In a wheelchair, unable to, to talk beyond like 1 or 2 sentences. And for a while I understood what was going on in my brain, but I couldn't actually get it out. I couldn't speak it. And then it got to a point where I didn't know what was happening in my brain. So my IQ dropped a lot during that time. I used to teach Sociology courses at the university and did research. And so that obviously stopped right away. I had 2 kids who were 9 and 8 and 11 at the time, I think about 8 and 11 or 9 or 12. And, and so I really had to rely on my friends and my, my in-laws really stepped up and, and helped take care of me. And then once we figured out what I had and got me the medication that I needed, I was— I realized, okay, I really need to focus on myself. And so I did a very intense program for 2 weeks to really focus on that mind-body consciousness connection and healing. Because for so long, I had been super negative to myself. Good to everybody else. And that really made a huge change. And so I was finally able to go off the medication. I had a port. I got my port removed. And now anytime I get any of the symptoms, the beginning symptoms of what I had before— so before I had neuropathy, I had vertigo for 10 months straight, nausea, dizziness. Well, that is vertigo. Oh, and my speech. I lose my ability to speak. I start slurring. I know automatically I have to stop. I have to do stuff and take care of myself. I have to rest. And then the symptoms go away. So it's pretty amazing. It's like, you know, it forced me to listen to myself, to my body and heal, like actually be kind to myself.

Put yourself first.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I can help others. I can't help others if I'm sick. Yeah. But also to, to take care of myself and to not be so mean to myself, like all those negative tapes that I had growing up.

Yeah. So the body was telling you what you'd look, you'd sorted some of the stuff out that was going on in, in your head.

Mm-hmm.

And stuff sorted through the stuff going on.

Yeah.

Body.

Yep. Yeah. It's almost like there's a really great TED Talk by Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, and she talks about trauma and the relationship to chronic illness. She did work with Stanford. She's a medical doctor, and it's a great TED Talk. And she talks about that relationship and how if we don't Heal that, our bodies, we can't just heal the brain because our, our bodies are connected. Like you were saying, it's so connected. You can't have an experience without your body experiencing as well. So, yeah, really focusing on, on that healing. Yeah. Yeah.

And it's kind of frustrating because we can't really talk about it much, can we? No. Talking about it isn't the same as doing it.

Right. That's so true. Yeah. And that's what, you know, I remember saying, do I really have to do this 2-week thing? And I remember a therapist of mine who specializes in trauma and does a lot of stuff with the, the mind-body somatic healing and everything. And he's like, Tanya, yes. He's like, this is your body saying, this is it. This is like your final countdown. I was like, okay. So yeah. Yeah.

Is it like a— was it like a pressure cooker going off?

Yeah, actually, that's a great analogy. I think it was also. Yeah, because I thought I was doing all this stuff in my head, right? It was all mind, mind, mind, mind, mind. And ignoring the body completely.

Yeah.

And yeah, it was like a pressure cooker because all of a sudden everything happened at once. I mean, one minute I was, you know, and I just completed a marathon. Like, I will never do a marathon again. But I did do one. I just completed a marathon. And then I, and then I was sick. And I was unable to communicate. Like, there was points where I needed help dressing myself, bathing myself, help. I refused to be fed. So I would feed myself, but the food would be all over the place. Right? And so it was, it was like this pressure cooker that just everything, it was like, you will not be able to do anything, you know, couldn't talk, couldn't walk, couldn't smell, couldn't taste. Couldn't, you know, it was like all this stuff of I couldn't, which then forced me to accept people doing stuff for me. Yeah. Yeah.

So have you gone back to the head, head stuff after that? Or has it been kind of somatic stuff all the way?

Uh, for me, it's mostly somatic stuff. I mean, I will process stuff in my head and then I gotta get it out of my body. Yeah. So I, ever since, I know I have to do somatic stuff. That's actually key to, you know, it's like I call it my canary in the coal mine, right? When I have that tingling in my hands and feet, or I get the vertigo, especially the vertigo. The vertigo is the first thing to come. And when that comes, immediately I do body stuff.

Immediately.

Whether that's like an infrared sauna and then like a craniosacral massage type thing or healing or getting out in nature, putting my feet on the ground, getting out in nature, walking, hiking, jogging, that type of thing. If I can be near water, I live in Panama half the year, you know, so if I can go near water, that is also very healing. And yet there's still, there's always mind stuff going. But it's not forgetting that your mind and your body are connected, or at least my— yeah, mine are. So yeah, I have to do— I can't just do mind stuff.

So what did you— if you were to sum up what you learned on this last retreat, what would that be? Or the change in your experience? Because if I ask you a question about learning, right, I'm asking you about head stuff. So maybe I should be asking you a broader question about experience.

Yeah. I mean, my experience, um, what I've, what, like doing that, uh, mini retreat, I was, you know, I, having done stuff like that before, I was like, wow, I'm, I'm on a, I'm in a good, I'm in a good place. And my body is happy. And, and I feel good. And I remember doing some of the other stuff that was— I could tell it was really painful for many people because it was all the negative talk that we give ourselves, right? And, and so we were trying to like expunge that, like acknowledge it, you know, see that it's there, but then let it go, right? And I was like, yeah, I'm actually pretty good at this, this exercise, because I have done a lot of expunging since 2007, you know, since I actually started getting healthy in 2018. I, I've done a lot of work on that and I felt, wow, that's— and then so I just continued to do it and then just felt great afterwards. It just felt very like, I don't know, huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. And it just reinforced to me more than anything that the importance of working through discomfort and happiness, all the different emotions But working it through not just our brain, but our body. Yeah.

Did you touch on anything around the labeling of emotions?

Um, not on this one, I don't think, although, talk to me a little bit more about, about what you mean.

Well, we have the sensations. Um, and then there's the meaning that we've put on the sensations. So to use an example from my own life, I would be— I've struggled a lot with waking up in the middle of the night thinking about business.

Mm-hmm.

So somebody will— would you say it's insomnia? Well, not really. I wouldn't put it— it's not been as extreme as that, right? But there's, there's being awake, and there's fighting being awake, and then there's worrying about the fact that I'm awake. How am I going to function tomorrow?

Right.

Or, or, or, um, I talked about earlier on about my mouth getting dry or, or my palms sweating, you know, I, I in a stress moment. There's, there's the heat in the hands, and then there's the thoughts about the heat in the hand. And they're 2 different things.

Right.

So there's our, there's our physical sensation, and then there's our mental naming, the naming of that sensation. And shaming that sensation, I would say, and, and the resistance to that sensation, which is a whole load of stuff going on in our head. That's got nothing to do, that's got nothing to do with having sweaty palms or feeling that I'm perspiring, right? Feeling that I'm sweating under my armpits or something like that, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, uh, I, uh, Yeah, I'm— we're just about to go on holidays, as I said. I do remember something going back maybe 25 years ago. I used to get very, very stressed before I went on holiday because I wanted everything to be kind of run okay when I wasn't there. This is 25 years ago. There's no, there's no mobile phones, right? I'm not—

Right.

I'm not checking in on my business. I'm leaving it.

Right.

So I would be very stressed before I went away because I'd be writing down notes. So I asked you a very simple question, and then you asked me for some clarification, and I just started waffling on. What I mean is, did you, did you explore the difference between the sensation and the labeling of the sensation on this retreat?

You know, I think it— I don't— I think we acknowledged that was kind of a little bit of a personal journey, I feel like, that they had everybody do individually, where we would write down stuff and we would name stuff individually and what that was like and what that meant. But then we all experienced acknowledging it and then releasing it, regardless of if it was named that this is whatever process that was going on, it was still coming out as a physical somatic sensation as well. And so that was kind of what I felt, I feel like that they focused on more so than, than than going into the differentiation.

Yeah, right. Probably better. Probably a more holistic way of doing it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think they did that because people were coming from different places. But they could say, look, all the stuff that you're feeling or you're thinking, or this is all going like— so they would acknowledge the different things that you were talking about. But then they're saying ultimately, though, it's still in our bodies and we need to get it out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, if that makes sense.

Yes, and that's why they're doing what they're doing and why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm not talking about this stuff. Did they, did they talk to you about, um, the, the separate self? Did they mention that word? Or ego? Would they— did they mention that as opposed to true self? Did they get into that?

Well, sort of without actually calling it ego, you know, they, they talked about, you know, yeah, the difference between, um, um, what, what we are, what we have always been deep down.

Yeah.

But that's been kind of stifled and kind of overtaken by this other self that It typically tends to be negative. It tends to be very oppressive.

Yes.

And it tends to be in our head.

Yes.

But then it affects us internally. Right. And so, which makes so much sense. Right. When we're beating ourselves up in our head, we're, we're still beating ourselves up on our bodies.

And, and so the inner critic is the inner critic. The inner critic has a, it is a particular part of the brain.

Oh, yes. I— yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and so—

And you don't have to be an adoptee to have one, right?

No, no, no, no. This is all the, the fascinating thing though. So this is, this experience could be done for anybody. You don't have to be adoptee or not. I think adoptees really specialize in, I'm gonna make a blanket statement about us. Me as a member, I think we tend to really specialize in beating ourselves up at the beginning, you know, and I think part of that comes from the, well, the ultimate abandonment, you know, why did someone not keep me for whatever reason, you know, when we're young, we don't think about the social constructs that created the reason for the adoption. But it— oh, I just lost my train of thought.

Yeah.

But anyway, yeah, yeah. So I feel like, yeah, this is for anyone. But what— oh, this is okay. This is right. This is what I was gonna say. The 2 of us who are from— so myself and a coworker of mine, we went to this retreat because we're gonna be partnering with them next year. And what was really interesting and what I felt was very important Is there were some of the processes that they did do. It wouldn't— like some of the guided meditations and things, it wouldn't work with adoptees. It has to be shifted a little bit because it— some of the stuff is, um, one of the— one of the, you know. So I felt like experiencing that was really important because there are Very qualitative, distinctive things that make us a different population than non-adoptees. And that is the fact that we've lost parents. So, um, but pretty much everything else, you know, can be, can be shaped to really help, um, all of us heal. You know, it's not just for adoptees only, of course. And what you were saying, that experience is not just for adoptees, but I do feel like, uh, the experiences that we're talking about, these, these different modalities help everyone heal, including adoptees.

Yeah. One, one of the things that is becoming clear to me is, you know, we, we talk about this separate self. But there, there is no such thing as the separate self. It, it's, it's an activity rather than, rather than an entity.

Right, right. Because the separate self is really us. Yeah, yeah.

There's— so there's the true— there's the true self. There's only one true— there's only one true self. And then there's, then there's the activity that's, that's going on. And that everybody feels that sense of separation, feels a separate sense, feels a separate self, a sense of self. I'll say that again, a sense of separation from the true self. We feel that.

Yeah.

It would appear to me that as adoptees, we have a supercharged sense of self, self— yeah, sense of separation.

Yeah, I, I, I agree. Yeah.

And then if, if you add on the transracial piece, you, you've got— it's, it's not just as a white guy you know, raised by white parents, right? I, I could, I could say sometimes that I feel different, but for a transracial adoptee, it's not just feeling different, it's actually physically looking different.

Looking different. Yeah, yeah.

So you've got more, you've got more evidence. So it takes the sense of separation to a different level.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I, that is definitely, you know, for me, growing up, it was really hard. It was fascinating. You're talking about the sense of self. But it really is ourselves versus the inner true self, which is still ourselves. Right? So it's really all one. But it's like the—

it's, it's like this I can't even say it.

So there you go.

I know. I know.

I was a mind meld, though. I understood everything you were, you were saying. I feel, you know, it's interesting. I, I almost feel like it wasn't separate, but, but that part of me was really pronounced because it was so easy to see, and it was easy for everybody else to see. And so that part of me became more and more out, like, overtaking kind of the rest of my who I was. And, and so, you know, growing up, it was— this was in the '70s and '80s for me when I was growing up. There, it was really hard. You know, people made fun of me all the time. Right. I mean, people make fun of kids, make fun of kids for anything. They'll find anything to make fun of a kid. But for me, I became a target because it was easy, because I was the only one who wasn't white. And I was the only one who wasn't white, who didn't have a family who looked like them either. Right. So it was very easy for kids to make fun of me. And so that part of me was very— yeah, it was very pronounced. Yeah. And that, and that's the part of me that I chose to exemplify, because at that age, that's what was That's what I saw all the time, and I didn't have any mirrors to help me kind of navigate any of that and to be like, hey, there's all these other parts of you. This is not just the only piece of you, of who you are, but that one kind of overcame— overtook everything. And because it was negative, it, it just reinforced. And then, yeah, and then we talked about the whole mind-body thing and then beating myself up and, and never healing. from that until I was older.

Yeah.

Right. But, but, you know, it's interesting. It was all me. But it felt like there's this piece of me that just overtook everything else. Because that was the thing that was most apparent when I was younger. And, and it was the thing that was, that was, I was reminded of on a regular basis, you know, I was reminded of, oh, nobody wanted you. Like, people used to tell me that nobody wanted you. That's why you're here, you know, but you should go back to where you belong. Or, you know, all, all these negative things.

That's, that's the tribalism of human beings though, right?

Yeah. And being in a— and then so then being adoptee, right? I just internalized, well, it must be because I'm a bad person. That's, that's the only, you know, that's what I was, that's what the little person was telling myself. Little Tanya was saying, well, Tanya, It must be because you're a bad person. You're, you know, your, your country didn't keep you and then this country doesn't want you because they keep telling you you have to go back to where you belong. And I'm like, well, where do I belong?

Right?

So, so it was, uh, Tanya, we want you. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, I know that now, right? And I know kids, kids say mean things partly because of fear, partly because they don't know. I mean, you know, I, I actually—

Partly because their parents do that.

Their parents. Exactly. Yeah, I actually became really good friends with someone who used to— who said some terrible things to me when we were younger. And then, you know, later was like, I feel so terrible I did that. I had no idea. I had no idea. I was mean, you know. But, but, you know, thinking about this whole separation of self, it's really not a separation. It was just like this one piece of myself I just allowed to get fed. More and more and more. It was like, you know, instead of feeding the all of myself, I was just feeding this one little part that was yeah because she didn't know negative because I didn't know. Yeah. Now I know. And there's a lot of healing of of that younger child. But yeah.

Christ.

Yeah. But yeah, there's a complicated extra layer of the adoption. I think everybody has the you know. goes through similar, you know, everybody has traumas in their life, and everybody has mean people who, who say mean things when they're a child, and everybody, you know, um, and so I'm not discounting that for everybody, um, uh, but, and also adoptees have another layer to, to kind of process through. Yeah, in addition.

In addition.

Mhm.

The, the fact that not— that everybody has a version of this is actually really big because it means that we can learn from people who are experts at this. We— because there's Um, I— there is no, uh, who's the Dalai Lama, right?

Mhm.

The Dalai Lama. Everybody loves Dalai Lama. Everybody learns stuff from the Dalai Lama, right? There is nobody— there's no adoptee in, in, in the world that I see that's anything like approaching the Dalai Lama Right. In their ability to guide us towards our true self.

Mm-hmm.

Nobody comes even close.

Yeah.

The Dalai Lama, or Rupert Spira, or, um, I think of other people, uh, Byron Katie, or what's her name, Brach, or, you know, these, these really gifted people.

Mm-hmm.

They're really gifted at pointing towards the true self.

Mm-hmm.

And, and that's why it's a big deal that it means that we don't have to just learn from fellow adoptees. We can learn from people that are more gifted at pointing.

Oh, one. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. The, one of the, the most healing I, I have ever experienced Uh, was with this, um, therapist, a non-adopted white dude. He goes, he goes around the world teaching, um, attachment trauma healing, this, this process that's both, uh, mind and body. And, uh, it was life-changing. So life-changing. And he's not an adoptee, but he understands complexity of, of the traumas that I had. And this was— it was, yes, this is important, and we're going to look at this piece because it is part of you. But also this healing that we're doing Is it— we know it works for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, it— that was transformative. That was one of the most transformative experiences I ever had, um, in healing. Yeah.

What's the guy called?

Oh, his name is Dr. Terry Levy. T-E-R-R-Y. Yeah. L-E-V-Y. T-E-R-R-Y L-E-V-Y. And, uh, yeah, he's, he's amazing.

Feels like a good place to bring it in.

Yeah.

Thanks, Tanya. Thanks, listeners. We'll speak to you again very soon. Bye-bye.